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99 Responses

  1. Babylon’s Dread says:

    Dear Relevant,

    Woke means many things…here are a few

    Racism is justified to defeat racism
    Children are exploited for gender justice
    Woman becomes a category mistake
    Speech is monitored and mandated
    Social Justice is redistributive
    Whiteness is an inherited sin
    Equity must be coercively overseen
    Immutable characteristics grant status
    Call something racist until you control it

    Above all it means old, white, cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied, men are the BOGEYMAN — especially if Christian

    Circumcised Card-carrying Dread

  2. Em says:

    Pastor Dread @ 1:11

    👍*👍*👍*👍

    Unwoke Em. 💆

  3. josh hamrick says:

    I’m sure I’d be found guilty of wokeness, whoever you guys choose to define it. It is definitely something old white people would worry about.

    I am happy to be excommunicated from whatever religion NapoleOwen is trying to kick people out of. I’ve been looking for a way out as is. Maybe Owen would be willing to perform the mercy killing.

  4. josh hamrick says:

    I think quite often when people call you woke, they would have rather used the N-word, and just mad that one is not acceptable anymore.

  5. josh hamrick says:

    The thing is Old White People get terrified that someone would dare not see things exactly the way they see them.

    They are old enough to remember a time when it seemed like all of America did see things their way, and therefore, their way is right!

    Of course that time never existed. They were just more able to get by with killing dissenters back then.

    Oh no, Josh don’t say that! It will bring on genocide! (And its not the genocide we want, this time!)

  6. Dread says:

    Woke was a self-designation until people adopted it as a real category.

    Now it’s another form of victimhood

    But Josh I already claimed victimhood here you gotta get in line.

  7. josh hamrick says:

    But I forgot to sign my post with a catchy name so everyone can be sure just how ignorant I am.

    Woke -CRT-PLease God Get Me Out of this Brainless, Heartless, Christless Religion – Josh

  8. josh hamrick says:

    Or maybe woke is just nothing, Something else you’ve made up to be scared of. Maybe , just maybe!!!!

    Someone born in a different place than you, in a different culture than you, to a different family than you, in a different economic situation than you…might, maybe, perhaps…see things a little different than you would.
    And you could actually learn something from them, and maybe even them from you, if you’d freaking listen instead of labeling them some term you hate and being terrified of them.

    Scratch that, go back to hating irrationally. What I propose will I bring about GENOCIDE!!!

  9. Dread says:

    Sorry to enrage you Josh. I won’t renounce my actual rejection of those 10 things I listed.

    Justice does not require it and compassion is able to thrive without empowering those lies.

  10. Dread says:

    Woke can be defined otherwise and I bless you to do so.

    There is actually something to see here. It ain’t nothing. Relevant is making pains to associate it with good things. You may do so as well. Be free.

  11. Michael says:

    Dread

    So… I posted a couple of articles defining this “woke” word.

    You posted a response that is worth examining, because we know that many people share your perspective.

    My first response is that the views you cite are held by some…but are a fringe minority hardly worth the effort.

    I agree with some of your concerns.

    I do not believe racism justifies racism…but I also believe that systemic racism is part of the fiber of American culture.
    It takes only a short look at history to verify this.
    I would hope you would agree that this is an issue worth examining and rooting out where it exists.

    I do believe children have been exploited…some mutilated …to further the agenda of the LTBGQ minority.

    I believe that the transgender issue is both tragic and at times farcical…when biological men are allowed to compete in women’s sports.

    Speech has been monitored and mandated since the founding of the country…look up the practical outworking of the Alien and Sedition Acts. Watch Lincoln arrest people for speaking ill of him…I could go on…The idea that “conservative” speech is hampered because some platforms censor their users (as do I) is nonsense. Joe Rogans interview with Malone has reached over fifty million people…the top ten destinations on Facebook are conservative or alt right and broadcast conservative entities draw ratings a magnitude higher than liberal ones.

    You can’t throw a rock at media without hearing a conservative yelp.

    Is the censoring of ideas at the educational level troubling?

    Yes…but it is also self defeating in the long run.

    The rest of your points are held by a few reactionaries…somewhat like the Q crazies on the other side.

  12. josh hamrick says:

    Dread. Its nothing. Some people have different points of view than you do. You should listen to them and try to understand.

    Woke is nothing. Heck, Relevant is nothing. I have never once in real life had someone say to me, “Hey did you read that article in Relevant?” Never.

  13. Em says:

    Josh @2:40
    The things that today. define woke are things those of us who are identified as “Christians” had to deal with years and years ago…
    Racism? No Believer would have identified as racist in my part of the world. Down south? Dunno
    That said, we rejected that which went against what our Bible taught and what common sense taught us….
    FWIW…. I find “woke” an offensive term….
    God keep

  14. Dread says:

    Michael

    Thank you for responding

    As usual we are mixed as to our agreement.

    That’s how discussions work

  15. Michael says:

    Em,

    I’m a multi generation native of Oregon…and its history is every bit as overtly racist as any Southern state.

  16. Michael says:

    My guides to “social justice” are the OT prophets and Jesus in Matt. 25…

  17. Dread says:

    Social justice is a political term. Justice does not need a modifier as the prophets and Jesus described.

    It’s a small thing to some but I find that to be a distinction that makes a difference.

  18. Pineapple Head says:

    “You can’t throw a rock at media without hearing a conservative yelp.“

    That’s an awesome word picture. Excellent writing, Michael. My inner creative totally dug that.

  19. Michael says:

    Dread,

    What has been established here are are linguistic traps.

    If I advocate for the poor, for the the minority, for the immigrant…I can be easily dismissed as “woke” or a “social justice warrior’.

    These linguistic pits are for the sole purpose of denigrating and minimizing opposition to the status quo…and are every bit as wicked as anything you are protesting.

  20. Michael says:

    Thanks, PH…

  21. Duane Arnold says:

    “Social justice is a political term.”

    Not in El Salvador… or Watts… or….

  22. Duane Arnold says:

    “But Josh I already claimed victimhood here you gotta get in line.”

    Victimhood… no, just posturing.

  23. Dread says:

    Hello Duane

    Michael you were correct yesterday and I understood your point and took it in.

  24. Duane Arnold says:

    Again, just posturing…

  25. Dread says:

    I guess I deserve that too.

  26. Em says:

    I got my first education on race when I was 8 years old. I came home from school to a fairly young black girl ironing in the dining room. No one had said anything to me – WW2 was in progress and there was no one home to do household chores…
    I asked, ” Who are you?” She ignored me for a time and then went ballistic, chasing me all over the house shouting ” what the matter wich you – you think this will rub off on you?” as she tried to swipe me with her arm….
    She was fired for stealing sheets and was replaced with a somewhat heavy set black woman. This good soul saved my bacon when I was getting beaten. After finishing her days work she walked 4 blocks to my mother’s millinary shop to tell her that she was punishing me for something that was being done by my 4 year old cousin.
    Mother didn’t apologize, she just said that this woman told her that she’d seen him more than once pour sand into his daddy’s gas tank. He told them I did it. The best part of that was I learned what I’d been getting beatings for…..
    Good people, and bad people, come in all skin shades. AND that IS the truth! ! !
    Woke is a dangerous broad brushing of racism etc.
    God keep

  27. victorious says:

    Thanks for the articles. Read the first so far.

    Based upon what Strachan wrote in 2014 compared to his call to create apostasy action committees in 2021; he appears to be the theological equivalent of a Lindsay Graham who abandons character, conviction and virtue for the fear fueled power of personal recognition.

  28. josh hamrick says:

    Wrong.

  29. Em says:

    Josh, if your “wrong” comment was directed at me? ? ?
    We seem to see things differently… Could be generational – dunno
    God keep

  30. Bob Sweat says:

    Keep it up Josh!!!!

  31. Michael says:

    The question is not whether there are good and bad folk within every race.
    The question is whether the power structures of American have been and in some measure, continue to be racist.

    History is clear that it has been…and the testimony of the non white races is that it continues to be.

    The next question concerns a remedy…and there is much legitimate debate over that.

    We have few blacks here…but racism against brown people is endemic and applauded by the majority…

  32. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    BrianD, someone brought these to my attention recently.

    https://suttonturner.com/blog/f/rise-fall-of-mars-hill-podcast—my-participation
    https://suttonturner.com/blog/f/investigating-the-formal-charges-mark-driscollmars-hill-church

    I’m still working through the material in the second link.

  33. Em says:

    A remedy? For racism? Hmmm……..
    That almost sounds like asking for a remedy for sin that circumvents the cross….
    Will racism exist until Christ returns? Jealousy, thievery, adultery, acting on other impulses of the libido outside God’s established boundaries, false witness, God denying, scorn for The Book?
    Come soon, Lord Jesus
    God keep us all in His plan/will………

  34. josh hamrick says:

    Em, the lady that helped you around 1945, how old would you estimate that she was at the time?

  35. bob1 says:

    Excommunicate the woke?

    Seriously?

    How ridiculous What a bunch of bushwa.

    I like what this Amazon reviewer said about the book:

    “Christianity and Wokeness” is as shallow as it is provocative — a Chick tract dressed up to sound like Johnny Mac. CRT and other philosophies or movements addressing racial inequalities are clearly worth careful consideration and critique. This book is not that. Those already on Owen’s ranch will find plenty of fodder to feed themselves on, but they won’t be any better or wiser for it.”

    What I find really sad is what the reviewer says — apparently they’re satisfied to lob spitwads at the rest of the church and not really be part of the conversation. If they can’t get their way, they’re take their ball and lob it the rest of us, I guess. This will just cause unnecessary division and conflict — just what need (sarcasm mode on).

    Esteemed spokespersons like Tim Keller and John Stott (and that’s just barely scratching the surface) have spoken eloquently about the need for the church to fight social injustice — not to mention the Hebrew prophets! The need toay is for nuance, not a stance based on reactionary fear.

    (If the term social justice gives you hives, substitute “fairness.”)

    Plus, any time you try to marry an ideology with Xnity, the latter comes out to be subsumed by the former. This was noted by C.S. Lewis, so I can’t claim credit for it.

    Xnity+feminism — the feminism takes over
    Xnity plus reactionary anti-wokeism=the latter takes over.
    Xnity plus Nazism — sadly, we know how that one turned out.
    Xnity plus Stalinism — same thing.

    I mean, to excommunicate someone and it’s not even a part of the church’s creed —

    How stupid, short-sighted and misguided is that?

    Makes me really glad I don’t ID as evangelical very much anymore.

  36. Em says:

    Josh @6:39. It was 1944 – I assume your point is that one woman had the advantage of maturity. The young black woman oozed hostility. I think her attitude was her Achilles heel.
    The older woman’s name was Lucille and, at. 8 years of age, I’d have to guess… in her forties
    I have nothing but good memories of her. She took me under her wing, taught me to bake a cake following a recipe in a cook book among other things…
    As an adult i. made the acquaintance of the housekeeper for the Parish house in Colorado Springs another black woman of high character who was very kind to my son who was twelve at the time. I have also known black men of good character….
    Sadly, growing up in So. Calif., I never met a Latino that wasn’t riddled with hostility and very disrespectful of white people. I am certain they are out there – met a couple up here in Chelan county, but they were people looking for employment, so……..? ? ?

  37. josh hamrick says:

    No, my point is she was born in the late 1800s. I wonder what her parents did for a living?

  38. Michael says:

    The community I live in is 40% Hispanic…and full of hard working, devout people who love their children, add to the community and made school functions where food was served amazing times of community fellowship.
    One of my closest friends is a Hispanic man who is also one of the sharpest business minds I’ve ever met…as well as an assistant pastor…and a conservative Republican…

  39. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Well … new post. Turner published notes from the investigation into Driscoll from 2014. For those who won’t already know what to make of said notes here’s a post that may help a little.

    https://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2022/01/sutton-turner-posts-notes-from-2014.html

  40. Em says:

    Michael @8:04
    i know they are out there, but in So. Calif. growing up i didn’t encounter any…. could it have been because they felt that the southern part of the state was stolen from them? dunno
    glad you’re surrounded by solid citizen Latinos… Texas also seems to have that caliber…

  41. Em says:

    Josh, perhaps the turn of the century, but not in the 1800s and, although, she never mentioned her parents… think they also lived in L.A.

  42. josh hamrick says:

    We can guess her parents were pretty young when she was born. That puts their birth at 1875. Her grandparents were probably born around 1850.

    I’m just trying to imagine what may have shaped the world of this wonderful woman who helped you out as a child.

  43. josh hamrick says:

    Its linked in the mereorthodoxy article, but worth a link of its own. A look at the etymology of “woke”. Truly fascinating. https://www.vox.com/culture/21437879/stay-woke-wokeness-history-origin-evolution-controversy

  44. Dread says:

    Haven’t read it carefully but skimmed fully. It’s a very good read. “

    In the six years since Brown’s death, “woke” has evolved into a single-word summation of leftist political ideology, centered on social justice politics and critical race theory.”

    Very good understanding of evolution of words and mythology. (Story)

  45. josh hamrick says:

    Hilarious SNL skit about woke jeans on there too.

  46. Michael says:

    “Woke” is simply a juvenile way to dismiss concerns about any number of social issues.

    There is no variance or nuance allowed because the point is to end discussion through the use of a pejorative.

    It’s not helpful, but it is characteristic of a time when reasoned debates have given way to tribal warfare.

    They may use it when they write the epitaph on this time in history…

  47. bob1 says:

    So, is woke synonymous with anything that might cause an individual to reassess some aspect of life, based on new information? If that’s the case, so much for higher education and even Christian discipleship! “Behold, I make all things new…”

  48. Xenia says:

    I was in a discussion group this morning. We were discussing Tennyson’s poetry. Let me just say that among certain pronoun-sensitive individuals, there is little common ground for peaceful conversation.

  49. Em says:

    Josh, she was a Christian woman, so……
    Perhaps God shaped her character?
    I grieve for those today who are being shaped by leftist propaganda….
    There was a time when the educators made sure we understood right and wrong and what a treasure we had in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Yes, we’ve been evolving, but it was those documents that have allowed us to grow and mature as a democratic Republic of individual states.
    Monday is Martin Luther King Day – I will celebrate, not the man, perhaps, but the progress we’ve made as he held the nation’s feet to the fire.
    FWIW
    I am against reparations – as my son pointed out to me, the amount of blood spilled in our Civil War was our “reparations.”

  50. josh hamrick says:

    xenia – as a dad of a college daughter, oh yeah, they are obnoxious 🙂

    Em – there is almost no chance that woman didn’t personally know people who had been slaves.

    “I grieve for those today who are being shaped by leftist propaganda….”
    What about right-wing propagandha?

    “There was a time when the educators made sure we understood right and wrong.”
    When was that time?!? You have glorified the past. Most people did not grow up in the white utopia that you grew up in. It was awful for them and that is why it had to change.

    “the amount of blood spilled in our Civil War was our “reparations.””

    Oh, good grief. That hurts to even read.

  51. Kevin H says:

    Woke is a very slippery term that is hard to nail down and define with certitude and extent. We see that with just our discussions here along with many other articles we read that try to define or assign the term.

    Some do actually claim, and proudly claim the title of “woke”. Some of the things these woke claimers believe and espouse are troubling if not flat out evil, while other things are legitimate if not even righteous. Some of the troubling things are reflected in the list that Dread made at the beginning of this thread.

    However, when the term is used within conservative/evangelical Christianity by one Christian assigning it to another Christian, it is used in a pejorative fashion as to link the accused Christian to the troubling aspects of “wokeism”. Yet rarely, if ever, do the Christians it’s assigned to hold to any of these troubling beliefs. The term is used cast doubt and degradation upon the person it is assigned to, but rarely are they worthy of that doubt and degradation. The assigning of the term to another Christian is often deceptive and disgraceful.

  52. Michael says:

    For Trey to get his diploma we had to take 4 history classes last semester.

    I was amazed at the quality of the texts and the lack of nonsense from the left or the right…just excellent standard history classes.

    All of them made much of the founding documents…and also showed how we have denied them from the beginning.

    We should be ashamed of the racial history of this country…and use that shame to face it and change it…not pretend it didn’t happen.

    Reparations are a difficult subject…any reparations would have to include the Native Americans as well.

    I think the issues are vastly more complex than just paying for past sins…

  53. Michael says:

    Well said, Kevin…

  54. Duane Arnold says:

    Heard an interview with an Anglo-Indian who has written a new book, Empireland, on the UK’s problem with race. He sees it as arising from Britain’s involvement in the slave trade, but even more so from it’s colonial past. That is to say, we’re not the only ones having to revisit our history…

  55. Em says:

    Josh, propaganda IS propaganda, no matter where it comes from… For the record, I am not a hard over right winger
    White UtopIa? Well, I grew up in a town – Glendale, CA. – where black folk had to be out of town by sundown or the police took them down Las Feliz blvd. dropping them off by Griffith Park.
    My grandparents taught me that was wrong. When she passed away my family found a newspaper article that she’d clipped and placed in her Bible. It reported that Nat King Cole had bought a condo in the north end of Glendale.
    My daughter had a black girlfriend who’s dad couldn’t get waited on at the local service station in Lynnwood, WA. Yet he was the service manager for a major car dealer. Living in Wichita I had a neighbor knock on my front door to castigate me for hiring a black man to do some chores, he’d told me that he needed work in order to get some groceries for his wife and baby. I gave him a check, asked him if he’d be able to cash it and he said, “yes, they know me at the grocery store.”
    Lala land? No, I saw the evil mindset AND I didn’t take part in it! ! !
    Sorry I upset you, but I suggest you rethink your last comment @ 10:19
    Perhaps your family lost no one in the Civil War? It cost Abraham Lincoln his life.
    God keep you and your family

  56. Em says:

    BTW, we may have exploited the native American tribes. Being bigger and stronger usually does get one in trouble. I do have a native American great great grandmother. My late husband had a Canadian Indian great grandmother.
    Were the reservations a good idea? Dunno, as it isolated them….
    That said, many of those tribes were insensitive – cruel to their neighbors…. Some of them would have parked me under a tree to die in winter……
    So little is black and white – unless you are God

  57. josh hamrick says:

    Em – The civil war blood being reparations is straight out of the white supremacist handbook. Imagine telling a husband that he should apologize for beating his wife. He responds “The blood on my knuckles is all the sorry she’ll get.” Its an evil mindset.

    “we may have exploited the native American tribes.”
    Or murdered them is more like it. There is the genocide Dread is always looking for.

  58. josh hamrick says:

    Its odd em, when its convenient for you, you often talk about how racism was never an issue where you grew up. Of course, when you actually look back, you see these awful things everywhere.

  59. Em says:

    Josh, guess you didn’t read what I said, ….. sigh
    But your points Are worth considering….

  60. Dread says:

    Josh

    I’ll thank you to stop representing me and I will do the same for you.

    The 20th century totalitarians validate the danger and potential of genocidal regimes.

    I am aware that many believe the origins of America are in the same category.

    This forum provides us opportunity for respectful discussion. I’ll not settle for less going forward.

  61. Steve in Canada says:

    Most Americans I meet seem to think I’m woke simply because, along with pretty much every other country in the world, I believe that universal medicare is a good idea… Doesn’t seem to matter how conservative I might be on most other topics.

  62. Muff Potter says:

    Dread on 14 jan @12.35pm:
    I agree, woke is as Orwellian as Oceania.

  63. josh hamrick says:

    Dread – you thought that was disrespectful?!? You literally told me my words would cause a genocide, and that I would stand by and help with the murders.

  64. Dread says:

    It should not pass our notice that two articles in the list demonstrate the importance of the Biblical conceptualization of the individual that stands as a bulwark against governmental denial of freedom.

    The articles are worth reading especially if you can stay out of the weeds of the JMac protest behind the CT article. Very good stuff.

  65. Em says:

    Josh @11:49am
    I looked it up – 620,000 deaths in our Civil War
    Comparing that to an abusive husband’s. bloody knuckles? Lame – IMNSHO

  66. Duane Arnold says:

    “…governmental denial of freedom…”

    It never ends…

  67. bob1 says:

    Woke is very Orwellian
    Time to move on

  68. Em says:

    Orwellian and government denial of our freedoms
    Both good ponders – in my opinion…..
    Does ” woke” have a meaning or is it just lame slang?
    God keep us focused on His kingdom

  69. josh hamrick says:

    You missed the point em. You have very uninformed views on race and the history of our country. Doesn’t make any difference. That is who you are. I’m moving on.

  70. josh hamrick says:

    Continuing to bang your head against the rocks of willful ignorance is foolish. Some people love to be ignorant.

    But Dread, I say that with the utmost respect.

  71. Em says:

    Josh, @6:15
    Uninformed? You think so? Okay we have reached the end of this back and forth….
    Moving on here also
    God keep

  72. BrianD says:

    WTH, thanks for the links.

    I probably should have moved on from Driscoll/MHC/A29/Sojourn long ago, but a) they’re each still so influential in the evangelical scene b) touched many whom have deconstructed or even deconverted c) I can’t help myself….

  73. BrianD says:

    I’d have to be insane to wade into the woke discussion at this or any other point…but of everyone here I agree the most with Michael.

  74. Alan says:

    Josh

    Please reconsider the way you spoke to Em last night. You know her heart and you know her longstanding relationship to this community.

    We have to stop biting one another. Myself included.

  75. josh hamrick says:

    Alan – I have nothing but goodwill towards you and em. Both of you have awful views on race, history, society, etc. If the ignorance is spewed where I am, I will probably call it out.

    I do promise you that if your genocide begins, I will gladly take a bullet in your place.

  76. Dread says:

    Josh

    I don’t think you know my views not really. Not I yours. We only know caricatures.

    As for genocide — my real concern is that virtually any of us is capable of it. It is our human condition.

    It is not “how could they do that” rather it is “would I myself do it.”

    Collectivist thinking is very seductive and deceptive.

    As for genocide

  77. Alan says:

    Oops

    Meant to drop Dread — habits

  78. josh hamrick says:

    I know your views to the degree that you have made them know on this blog. Does Alan H. Have different views in real life? No clue. The views espouses by the character on this blog in regards to race and social issues are awful.

    Maybe in regards to your genocide, then, stop pointing the finger at others who are going to bring that about. It sounds like a condition you struggle with. I can tell you that I, personally, will not stand for a genocide. Not against Native Americans, blacks, muslims, Christians, nobody. I am completely against killing of any kind.

  79. Alan says:

    Which view on race are you claiming is awful?

    I gave a list above and don’t renounce it. Which part is awful?

    As for genocide— we can only think ourselves exempt from it in the abstract. The pressures on the ground are different.

    No one swims across a river without being carried downstream.

  80. Dread says:

    My list was actually not about race but woke. It included things about race.

    Every item on the list is a cultural debate and a progressive agenda point.

    I accept your oft repeated claim that you don’t research these things.

  81. josh hamrick says:

    “Which view on race are you claiming is awful?”

    Come on dude. The ones I have argued with you about for the last decade.

    “I gave a list above and don’t renounce it. Which part is awful?”

    The whole thing is awful. You started with a false false premise, and parroted 10 right-wing talking points from there. Of the few here that have been cast with the “woke” (remember, despite my protests you assured me that I am a full disciple of CRT) which of us have espoused any of those views? The answer is none. So, if i am “woke”, and iI can point you to many sources that will assure you that I am, but I do not espouse anything from your list, someone is bearing false witness, either you in your definition of woke, or anyone who would dare call me such a thing.

    “we can only think ourselves exempt from it in the abstract. The pressures on the ground are different.”
    I guess that is the same for any possible thing ever. You just chose a very remote, extreme possibility to use against your enemies. Are you being carried down the river of full-blown white supremacy? You say you won’t lynch black men, but what about when the crowd shows up at you door? Those are awful accusations to make against someone based on sheer speculation,w hen there has been no history, or threat of violence, just your disagreeing with some of their social views.

  82. Alan says:

    Since you do not espouse any of the things on my list we are not in disagreement.

    And your rants that followed were purely a definitional disagreement about woke

    That’s a small hill to climb.

    You said my social views are awful and then said you don’t espouse those things that I listed.

    How is that not agreement?

    I plainly stated above that woke can be defined otherwise and you were free to do so.

  83. Josh Hamrick says:

    Or, just stop with your crusade against woke, and thoughtfully discuss each issue as it presents itself.
    And own that falsely accusing others, falsely labeling others has consequences.

  84. Alan says:

    White supremacy? I grew up in Jackson Mississippi. I know a bit on that subject. And I wasn’t free of the cultural norms. But Jesus…

    Two weeks ago I introduced my son to my
    Black coworker from 50 years ago. We have not seen each other in many years. It was a glorious reunion. He is my brother in Christ and we date our friendship before Christ.

    He told my son a story, of going to a white pool hall in 1972. It was foolish and naive on my part to take him there. We were in actual danger.

    He laughed and told my son how ready I was to take on the whole bar in his defense. I remember it differently — lucky to be alive — but it made my son proud of the old man. We were barely emerging from Jim Crow laws and the effects of it were still with us. But Christ had begun to work.

    On the ground and face to face we all do better than in these debates.

    But understand I’m not entering the “I’m not a racist” portal. That’s a fools errand.

    You ask about the white supremacy river — so yes I’ve been in that current. That story is after Christ so it’s a small victory and an old story. But I know those forces.

  85. Alan says:

    Josh

    I’m happy for a reset.

    Didn’t realize I had so personally offended you. I’m sorry.

  86. Em says:

    For the record – thank you, pastor Alan, for speaking in my defense.
    I do have a very informed frame of reference regarding what the black race has endured (mostly in the South) post Civil War….
    My stand is that education is their key to escaping the stigma of low I.Q. AND
    It disturbs me now to see so many avoiding adult responsibility in favor of acting like a new Klu Klux Klan..,..
    Hoping for a turn around in this nation? YES
    Like Erunner and MLD, it may be my time to withdraw here….. Just “lurk.”
    God keep one and all growing, maturing in The Faith and wisdom

  87. Alan says:

    Em

    As you always say to us.

    God keep you

  88. josh hamrick says:

    Dread, you missed the point on the white supremacy river. My point is it would be ludicrous to claim that you would take part in lynchings, but I guess by the standard of your genocide argument, you may be caught up in that river unknowingly. Its absurd, as is your claim that I am headed toward genocide.

    Anyhow, I appreciate the apology, but was not personally offended.

    Em, obviously I’d rather you not leave. I think very highly of you, its just always off-putting to see your ideas on race. I do know that is a generational difference, and you are too far along in the game to change, so I will stop pushing that point with you.

  89. Pineapple Head says:

    Josh, are you aware how you insulted Em in the last sentence of your 1:12 post?

  90. Alan says:

    Ok I am going to do my best to clear this up and then solve the problem.

    Josh whatever may have transpired in our banter, arguments or communications. I do not now nor have I ever seriously considered you potentially guilty of mortal sins.

    Absurdity is the right word I cannot do this any longer.

  91. josh hamrick says:

    Alan – I did appreciate the personal story you shared, and didn’t want to minimize it. I grew up in the very next generation in North Carolina, and know what I am still trying to overcome. I am sure Mississippi in the early 70’s was even more of a struggle. I’m glad you reached beyond the social norms, even if you didn’t do it in the wisest way 🙂

  92. josh hamrick says:

    PH – it wasn’t an insult, em has shared her age her on many occasions. There are wonderful blessing associated with older age, but there is also the tendency to hang on “the way things were”. Em means well. She has a great heart. Some of the things she posts about race make me cringe. Reminds me of my grandmother who was the most loving person I ever knew, but society was much different when she was young, and she was never able to keep up in terms of race relations.

  93. Pineapple Head says:

    Josh,

    You wrote, “You are too far along in the game to change.” Can you figure out why that might offend someone?

  94. josh hamrick says:

    Sure. But its the truth. I’m trying to help her understand that her racial views are really bad, but there is no stimulus for her to change them. As she has said herself, she’s on the last leg of her race and lives in basic isolation. It’s a waste of time for me to keep pushing that.

    But she’s a good lady, means no harm, and loves the lord.

  95. Em says:

    Josh, I hold no ill will against you – no worries….
    The thing that puzzles me is how you’ve concluded that I am racially prejudiced?
    I have a black granddaughter-in-law. My oldest daughter’s best friend was a black girl from Chicago (passed away from lupus 2 years ago).
    What I have said and I will say it one more time. Every race has good and bad actors! ! !
    What I see happening today is the risk of the end of our great Constitutional Republic. It is ignorance versus honest education – OMNSHO
    With that I bow out – God keep all the “Phoenix Peeps.”
    (I am surrounded by college educated folk. Not as isolated up here as you think, BTW)

  96. Em says:

    I should add that Josh hasn’t chased me off here…
    My family is responsible…. telling me that I am wasting my time…. mebbe?

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