Calvary Chapel Boise Announces Caldwell Confession to Adultery

j2theperson says:

I don’t understand why it’s seemingly so difficult for people to not commit adultery.

TombstoneBlues says:

And when I think about it.. what makes it even worse is the lying. He stated he was leaving the pastorate because basically God has a new call on his life… missionary work. So off he went doing missions work like nothing had happened, in effect working to stumble even more people, those he touched in his mission work who may now find out as young believers that they missionary they held in esteem was a lying adulterer. SMH…

Em ... again says:

“Pray that the Lord prevails in all…” yes, amen…
and He will do so where hearts turn to Him – pray that no one who names the name of Jesus Christ finds themselves gloating over this shameful self indulgence – no matter how we might try to analyze and tweek this sort of thing, in the end the sin is putting oneself (or another human) above the God Who has shown such love and grace to us

JM says:

My great fear is that all of these situations coming out are only the tip of a very large iceberg. The cover up of this kind of sin was sanctioned for decades by no less than Chuck Smith (who also was said to have committed this sin). It permeated the culture and has always been there. The truth of its depth is simply coming out now. Perhaps the painful fallout which is now more public due to the blogosphere will finally be the incentive to deal with it. It could be God himself that is forcing all of this into the light. God loves us but is constrained in the face of unconfessed sin in the camp. James says that pastors will be judged more severely so it is Scripture that one would quarrel with as to why their sin is different. Indeed, if unchecked sin by the leaders has left the sheep uncared for or abused, God will not allow it forever. He loves His church. If Biblical history is a good indicator of what is to come, He will allow time for the remaining guilty pastors to repent and remove themselves. If they do not He will expose them. It is a fearful thing to mess with God’s church. That’s why there is a warning for “not many to become teachers”.

CostcoCal says:

Jean. I love your point.

Having said that, why is it that Paul laid out the guidelines for pastors in the Pastoral Epistles? You know the ones; having one wife, being sober, ect…?

We are not bad people made good. We were dead people made alive. Lost people that are saved. Yet….

Those pastoral guidelines are still there. Right?

Jean says:

Yes Costco, absolutely the qualifications of 1 Tim are still applicable. My point was that if your starting point is that the pastor is every bit as human and fallible as the laity, then how might you protect him, his family and the laity from the temptation of infidelity?

covered says:

So Bob resigns and lies about why he stepped down almost a year ago, and today someone other than Bob informs the church why he really stepped down? Bob doesn’t bother to tell the people that love him and paid his salary what he did? This whole thing stinks.

CostcoCal says:

MLD. I was a rotten kid in elementary school. Glad my dad didn’t get fired for that!

Stephen says:

Question:

So, why doesn’t anyone talk about the second person involved in this fiasco? If he’s publically shames, why not her (or God forbid: him) too?

CostcoCal says:

My opinion, Stephen, is to cool your jets on publically shaming her!

surfer51 says:

There are many reasons behind the scenes why folks can commit adultery.

The marriage partners can drift apart and become emotionally vacant towards one another.

No longer experiencing Bride and Groom love for one another.

Leaving them susceptible to enticement for someone outside the inner circle of marriage that “understands me” or who “truly cares about me,” the reasons are many and varied.

Bottom line is they slip and fall down.

They become numb and unresponsive to the reality of the situation for a season or so.

But the Holy Spirit never gives up on them.

He has been called the “hound of heaven” by some because of His unrelenting pursuit.

He chases after us in love with the intent of overtaking us and causing us to open our eyes and repent.

He brings conviction of sin.

But prior to this there is always the attempt to hide our sin to save face.

As someone stated, it could be anyone of us.

We are all flesh and very capable of moral failures.

Bob Caldwell fell as has many others and as many others will.

None of us is perfect.

We have mercy and grace extended towards him in our hearts with the knowledge that if he is truly one of God’s kids, he will respond to the Holy Spirit and repent.

None the less we know that he is in good hands as are we.

The Holy Spirit’s loving presence, bringing to us what we truly need in each and every circumstance of our lives.

We shout GRACE to the man of God!

We say to him, stand up and be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ and finish the race set before you well!

Setting aside each and ever encumbrance.

Turning our backs to sin and rebellion to serve the Lord in righteousness for the remainder of our days.

O how we praise God the eternal One Whom we love and serve.

Jean says:

stephen,

The reason Costco might have in mind is that the relationship of pastor and a lay woman is not one of equals. There is a shepherd-sheep relationship. The pastor is in authority over the lay woman. It could be expressed as abuse of power. I would not over generalize, not knowing the facts, but my default reading is that the pastor uses his position to victimize the woman. There could be exceptions.

Stephen says:

In the case of the pastor using his position to victimize the woman (abuse of position and authority), I more than heartily agree.

I admit that I did not consider that aspect of the range of possibilities. For some reason, that scenario didn’t occur to me when I was considering the topic. Call me naive, I guess.

However:

If he was seduced or she was “one of those” who targeted him for a fall…Or, if they were equally “at fault” or “willing,”….why would it be oappropriate to continue to protect the other person/people?

Jean says:

stephen,

Regarding your second question, the purpose of announcing the nature of this pastor’s resignation was in the discernment of the elders the right thing to do possibly to quell gossip or properly explain his resignation to the people who paid his salary. I don’t really know.

But, you don’t just publish people’s sins for the heck of it. So when it comes to the woman, you first need to ask, what public interest is there in identifying the woman? What good for her and/or the congregation could come out of a public identification. What steps have been taken to address her side of the sin? Was she repentant? We just don’t know.

So, our first impulse should not be to out people just for the sake of identifying the counterpart to the pastor’s infidelity.

j2theperson says:

Out of curiosity could there be legal issues if the person a pastor committed adultery with was named and shamed. A pastor is a public person and there is a legitimate reason his adultery is made publicly know to his congregation. However if the person he committed adultery with is a private person who does not occupy any place of authority or influence within the church would they have any sort of legal claim to not be harassed or by church members “exposing” their sin and doing who knows what?

Tam Nal says:

I am a member of that church. The statement came as a shock initially and I cried. I didn’t cry because I feel Bob somehow didn’t live up to my expectation or let me down in anyway because to be honest my overall view of humanity is pretty low. The fact that a pastor, husband, father, mentor can carry on a secret affair hardly cases me to bat an eye. I cried because the enemy successfully wooed and deceived another one of us. “Still, kill, and destroy” that’s the name of the game. Bob didn’t take the opportunities to take the exits God made available to him. For whatever reason he didn’t go to a brother in the Lord and talk about his temptations. Was it because he didn’t have anyone to talk to? Did he have an accountability partner?

I ache because I know him and his family are aching. In time God will heal and renew but now we mourn.

JD says:

We all need to have Jesus as our accountability partner.

Jean says:

JD, Jesus will hold us accountable, but not as a partner. 🙂

Paul A. Lytton says:

Just my own opinion…

Why should the other than Pastor adulterer be exposed and shamed?

First of all they shamed themselves. Exposing does not shame unless shame occurred. Exposing is simply making the truth be known. (lying is not exposing).

Secondly what can possibly be wrong with “exposing” the truth. Until you know who the other person is, you have no right to consider them as a “weak” woman. It could be a strong, or powerful, or highly church positioned woman (Sunday school teacher). In fact as far as that goes if the other person is not known, in today’s world, the other adulterous could also have been a man.

Those informed of the pastor’s sin deserve to know the FULL truth, or NONE of it.

Not exposing full truth is the breeding ground of lies and deception..and in fact encourages it.

Again, just my opinion.

Paul A. Lytton says:

Tam,

I agree with you. I will go one step further and say if the other person is weak, telling who she/he is can let other church members know who to help if needed.

Tam Nal says:

Paul,
The leadership has chosen to deal graciously with her. In his statement Tucker urged people the leave BOTH families alone for the time being. I got the impression that he knew some people in the congregation already know who it is. I guess I’m just not privy to the information.

Tam Nal says:

Covered,

Maybe you’re right. I guess my feelings are coming from a place of hurt and a bit of anger.

Paul A. Lytton says:

Covered,

Your # 49 can be true, but looking at a horrible car accident when you see a car you recognize too see if it involves someone you know that you can help is not rubbernecking.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

Do we, the blog readers of the world, have a ‘right’ to know more than what we already do?

Tan Mal wants to know everything and suggests the media (I would assume this includes investigative bloggers) – root it out. But if the Boise board says we have handled it and wish to respect the privacys of the parties and families – do we respect that?

covered says:

I understand Paul. My point is that sometimes needing to know just how bloody and messy things are, usually doesn’t help. For the record, I have been known to rubberneck myself. I just don’t see how knowing who the woman is at this point helps anyone. I think that I would want to know just how much the leadership knows and when did they learned of Bob’s failings. The woman will be found out in due time. For some reason, it really bothers me how this thing was handled from the beginning. I hope that we don’t learn that other’s knew and for some reason, decided to protect Bob or the congregation “for the greater good…”

Tam Nal says:

Martin,
I guess we should respect that.

Paige says:

May I add, that telling the church body the entire truth, including the name of the adulteress, is a way of protecting everyone, particularly the offended spouses. One would hope that a church body would stand with the victims and not make excuses for the pastor.

My former church chose to not tell the congregation what happened for a full two years after my ex was fired. The people loved their pastor, and found it unfathomable to believe he was capable of doing something so wrong. The great majority decided on their own that it was my fault.

Equipping a church congregation with the whole story relieves them from speculation. It is devastating to learn that someone you’ve loved trusted to teach you the Scriptures and represent the Holy Spirit has violated a sacred covenant and lied about it for a long time.
It is very much a betrayal to the church as well.

Thank you JM. It’s been 17 years. The ordeal broke my life and shattered my offsprings’ faith.

JM says:

Paige, I am in agreement with you as to how to handle this — and the other woman. Unfortunately, I have also seen the victim blamed for the indiscretions of the husband and the incredible pain it causes. She is put on trial by those that committed idolatry of the pastor, though she had no control over any of it. It is like being pummeled and betrayed all over again. I have also seen faith lost by those affected–especially children. They simply don’t believe that God could exist and allow such a thing. That is another fruit of this sin. Again, this is a very serious offense and needs to be cared for to stop the church at large from “bleeding out”. It is a credit to the Lord’s mercies and perseverance in your own faith that you can handle the issues so well at this point, Paige. I pray that God will continue to restore all that has been taken away, continue to send healing to your children and continue to send minister health to your body because of the awful toll it surely took. God bless you for not giving up.

Tam Nal – Thank you for sharing that information about Bob.

Xenia says:

Love covers a multitude of sins.

No one here needs to know the details of any of this.

DrawingInTheSand says:

My heart is heavy hearing all this, but to be honest it’s not against Bob or the mistress. I’ve known Bob and his family for many years and I love them all, this is sad news and it’s sad for all the obvious reasons. But let me be clear, I’m not angry at all. This is what Jesus died for and anyone who enjoys that grace is under the same grace that Bob is receiving now if he is indeed in a repentant place.

Respectfully, it seems that handling “it” as the Elders have done in private, something that is blaringly public, kind of seems like we’re keeping in place the original problem… which is a lack of available accountability. In our public court system, if anyone is arrested for anything from jaywalking to murder it is reported in the papers and all the details are made available to the public, that’s how we know justice is meted out. That’s how we keep all parties including our judges and court systems accountable.

Isn’t hiding the details the same as hiding the sin, which is also the same as hiding how it was “handled”? I’m honestly confused about this and how it is being handled. Keeping it private is my first instinct as well, but it also seems like that could be part of the problem… this really isn’t a private matter. We knew all about Clinton’s affair because of his position in office, Bob has a similar position in the public eye and the details matter in a way that affects many people’s lives and walk with the Lord and it sets an example for leadership and raises the issue of better checks and balances being in place and perhaps a little more decentralization of power. I’m not asking or ranting for details or for anyone to be hung, I’m just asking what I feel are some obvious questions. And to me at least, there is no obvious answer in keeping things private, that needs to be questioned for systematic, governing reasons. For the reason of keeping and rebuilding trust with those who go to all CC’s and especially CCBoise. As well for the purpose of practical accountability among all pastors. I don’t feel any need to deal out shame, the Holy Spirit will work on hearts in the way He chooses, I’m not asking for shame but for an appropriate level of public accountability that matches the level of Bob’s own public’ness (new word). For the purpose of building and keeping trust within the flock and for the safety of current and future leaders. And it is a sad byproduct of the sin that it will, and probably should, publicly affect the life of the mistress. I’m not sure why we would make it a safe place to be on the “other side” of an affair where only one party is held accountable when it affects such a large populace. Think of it as accountability that is equal to and matches the sin.

Those are my thoughts, may the Lord grant us all wisdom executed in love wrapped in mercy so that the cup we use for others, when it comes back, is the kind of cup we would want for ourselves. Peace and love guys.

Jerod says:

The only way it might make sense to out the other party is if she has a national platform from which she preaches, as Bob had, a pastoral/teaching ministry. Then you might, maybe, possibly consider it.
Maybe. But the fact that the shepherd abused the sheep under his care is priority one. This woman most likely is a victim, and even if she was the pursuer, BC is still the one to blame.

She needs grace and truth.
Discipline from that local body, and care for her from the same.

The woman and her family were used. That is enough damage without having to be “accountable” to the social media gossip machine. Apparently that behavior goes no further than Bob and unnamed woman. Bob has stepped down and admitted it. Is there anything more in scripture that is demanded of a pastor than this? Is there more demanded of a lay person?

Unlike POTUS Clinton, no one voted for Bob Caldwell. No one responding here has any skin in the game at CC Boise, most likely. Many here consider CC a paragon of cruddy theology and worse doctrine, so I don’t see where people get off complaining they don’t know enough about things in a church they don’t care to grace with their presence thus ain’t their business any ol’ way.

To those he taught, led to Christ, those who served with him in ministry at CCA and CC Boise – to God and to them he is accountable. I don’t know if the Caldwell’ s have grandkids, but this potentially harms four generations of believers directly, an entire church, and an entire community. Lets leave it at that.

Anonymous says:

We do know who the mistress is and there’s no point in blasting her. We do know many details but the ultimate goal of protecting those who will be shaken in their faith far outweighs the desire to satisfy the millions of questions.
I’m angry and sad.
But his sin doesn’t change the incredible spiritual growth he helped me gain while under his mentorship. I agree in transparency. But for Tucker and elders it’s a multi faceted situation. They can’t possibly answer all the questions and then the inevitable millions of follow up questions. It’s a pretty difficult situation to handle especially as a young, new pastor who was brought up by this man and discipled by him.
Consider King David.
Psalms 51 is Bobs favorite. I can see a King David in him. Absolutely sinful but with a heart after Gods own heart.

Kevin H says:

There seems the need for CC Boise to strike a balance here. On one hand, there is a desire to protect both families that are undoubtedly already going through much strife, to have additional unnecessary strife being added upon them. On the other hand, there is a need to be open about enough detail and information so that it does not give the impression of shady cover-ups that then help lead to wrongful beliefs and attitudes occurring and innocent parties being suspected of wrongdoing.

Kevin H says:

MLD,

Maybe CC Boise has already said enough. I don’t know what all they disclosed beyond what has been reported here, that Caldwell confessed to adultery a couple weeks ago. Did they address if anyone on the board or church leadership knew about this before? Did they address if it played a part or was even truly the sole reason for his previous resignation? Did they address anything in regards to supporting his missions work that he was supposedly pursuing now that this is known? Did they address if the church has accountability measures in place where they can remove the senior pastor if such a thing occurs? (Caldwell had previously resigned, he wasn’t removed.) Did they address how long the affair was going on and if there was only one affair? Did they emphasize that only Caldwell himself should be held accountable for what he did, that no measure of guilt or blame should be placed on his wife? Did they address any possible church discipline for Caldwell? Did they address how they are trying to support Caldwell and his family, most especially his wife and children? Did they address if Caldwell is still receiving financial support from the church?

I think these are all fair and prudent things to address in order to help quell wrongful attitudes and beliefs because the congregation is just left guessing about them. Maybe CC Boise has already addressed them. But if they haven’t, they can lead to unhealthy suspicion, especially with the history of trying to hide things in Calvary Chapel.

JM says:

” What is going to be the motivation for the next guy to do the right thing if he will be trashed just like the guy who won’t?”

MLD, After dealing with this issue for most of my life, I have some definite thoughts on this. If the person is a pastor and has that sort of attitude–he should have never been a pastor in the first place. There are so many Biblical disclaimers against someone becoming a pastor in the first place (“stricter judgment” in James) that he has no excuse no matter what. The other way to look at this is what the Bible also says (“that it may cause others to fear”). God sees nothing wrong with causing that fear so neither do I.

Joel says:

“If the percentages hold true, 96,300–112,350 congregations in the United States are pastored by clergy with diagnosable Narcissistic Personality Disorder.”
–https://alivingtext.com/clergy-and-narcissistic-personality-disorder-ad72f54edee9#.al8dpfwqz

Steve says:

” – were not called by a congregation but in fact they called a congregation to themselves.”

MLD, I don’t see this as a Lutheran distinctive. Could this be what the Bible talks about in Acts 20:30 and drawing disciples after themselves? I like the idea of a congregation calling a pastor for this exact reason.

JM says:

Um, MLD, I’m not sure why you made so many assumptions towards me, but I hope to care for them below. I am actually impressed with what you said about the Lutheran way of doing things. I pray their policies are working and producing good fruit. It speaks well of them. I actually attended a Lutheran church for awhile and had a good experience.

As to the churches I frequented where this sin was a chronic problem—they were all CC’s (4 of them)–even many years ago. I left shortly after the Hocking Debacle because it was clear even then (1992) the problem was systemic and it was part of the culture. The pastor was placed above the Word of God. After coming out of the influence of a cult, I knew when you placed a man above Scriptural accountability things were going in a very dangerous direction. It was also clear that the genesis of the cultural immorality problem was Chuck Smith’s own sin. Only recently have more details come forth about that. As to “let it go”. Im not sure why you say that to someone you do not even know. It is hurtful. You have no idea the things I have forgiven. I had a difficult background and forgave the one who tried to kill me when I would not give up my new found faith in Christ. (They were influenced by the cult that part of my family was into.) Eventually, as was my prayer, God restored that relationship and this person came to Christ. I was with them shortly before their death and we loved each other as brethren in Christ. Early on, I was homeless because of that situation and went to CC for help. You do not want to know what happened there.

Years later, I helped in the restoration of a family who were hit by this sin. Because of my family background, this was all too familiar. But with Christ, I believed there was hope. The CC’ites and others within the family of the husband accused her of being responsible and almost broke her. Her health was so affected that she almost died. It took years for her to feel safe again. Because God saves to the uttermost, I actually facilitated the Gospel being preached to the “other woman” as well. Since the man was a Christian and knew better, the only thing to do was to make sure the wrong Gospel, which had been exemplified by the man, was corrected. The other woman completely repented, apologized to the wife and accepted Christ. The wife then forgave her. To the credit of the other woman, she also went away and never bothered them again. To his credit, the man held on and took whatever the wife dished out for many years in hopes of restoring his relationship with both her and his God. It actually did take years, but she eventually forgave him and he has never done anything even close to that again. His love for her restored her trust and her faith–even in God. Her love for him came back in the face of what he was willing to do to restore the relationship. It healed him, gave him hope and restored his faith. That was the only time I ever saw that happen and it was because the man finally learned the blessing of sacrificial love towards his wife. Though he now has this sin in his “resume”, he is the first to speak out about the horrors of infidelity and to steer others away.

My concern then as it is now is that God will be glorified and respected and a clear Gospel will be shown. As Scripture would prescribe, I always put responsibility where it is supposed to be and always will. A truly sorrowful individual who has committed any type of sin will rightfully mourn, call it what it is and seek to do anything they possibly can towards restoring what they have “broken”. A pastor should take responsibility for what they have done, deal openly with it and humbly accept whatever comes because no one held a gun to their head. They opened that door. The joy of being restored to fellowship with God should be their main concern–not covering up their sin–and certainly not lying. If they were truly sorry, they would also seek to protect their family at all costs because of what they have done–even if she throws him out for awhile. It is the right thing to do. There are many of us waiting to forgive when the right thing happens. I would put myself at the top of that list. Whether that happens or not is completely up to the pastor and if he is man enough to do the right thing. God will pour out His blessings to the truly contrite. I would like to see that.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

JM – “A pastor should take responsibility for what they have done, deal openly with it and humbly accept whatever comes because no one held a gun to their head.”

Didn’t he? He lost his career, his reputation and who knows what else. He is no longer the pastor of that church — and he left voluntarily for all we know.

Look at the Bob Grenier situation – if he had left years ago, like Caldwell left, there would be no issues in Visalia like there are now. Folks don’t seem to realize, without judging motive, that Caldwell took the high road in this situation.

Xenia says:

Those who believe that everyone’s name must be revealed, perhaps you could provide us with a list of your ten most grievous sins.

Steve Wright says:

I would add that if one really wishes the restoration of families with adulterous spouses, first and foremost, then as much privacy as possible is necessary – all the more if children are involved.

The internet is forever. An educational tool for future generations who one day can look up grandma and find out that she actually fornicated with a pastor 30 years ago.

It may take two to tango, but like Adam and Eve, this falls on the man, the pastor with the authority, and his role as a leader. Any publicity needs to deal with that focus.

Personally, at least in my eight years, I have never seen the push to reveal the woman on this blog as we are reading now. Maybe it is because Caldwell had more respect than the average pastor? If so, imagine his true fans and the living hell they may bring upon this “harpy” and “home wrecker” (just to select two of the more tame names I have seen when sides are chosen and the man is defended in adulterous situations)

No. Leave her (and her possible family) be.

nathan priddis says:

In the church, it must be remembered always…that we are sheep. As it says, not many mighty, not many wise. I think this is largely why we struggle to handle issues without firstly a fixation on genitals, or a distant second of alcohol use. When it comes to corporate culture, fiduciary duty, fraud, etc. we struggle in the church.

If Bob Caldwell was a plane crash the whole situation would be dissembled by the NTSB. This is because the children of this World understand the importance of facts assembled into a timeline. In order to learn of the pilots sex life? Hardly unless it pertained to the incident.

Here are a few random thoughts.

-Is it important to identify the counter party? No it’s not the point at all, and it would be honorable to protect the person’s future. But that also means those with oversight of the Church understand the difference from a victim seduced by a pastor, from an individual hunting for christian men. My community tolerated a known troller for decades. My Mama told me she murdered her husband in order to begin trolling. She then destroyed one church that tolerated her.

-Handling the matter privately. Hell no! In making as much information public as possible, people may recall events where additional issues took place. People likely saw things over the years. It is pertinent information when attempting to reconstruct a timeline of events. Chances are, smoke and flame where first seen, several years after individuals noticed the fire alarm began to go off continually.

-Protection of innocent parties. When an incident occurs, sheep naturally stampede. This may very likely include trampling, isolating, or shunning of spouses. It makes sense. If spouses faces can just be erased from our thoughts, we feel better about ourselves, and everything. Problem? What problem?

This is a definite area where the genital fixation is an impediment. What if an incident wasn’t sex, but instead the pastor assaulted his wife, or made her life a hell? Can a church identify a popular pastor needs to be rejected? Or will the wife be shunned?

-What did the Board know, and when. This does not mean the Board was covering up to be at fault. But there should be questions of the Board’s ability to read and detect emerging problems. Is the Board a bunch of children that can be fooled? If so, why?

Blentil says:

So, a local megachurch (Calvary Chapel Boise) just had their celebrity pastor Bob Caldwell confess to adultery which, is why he recently quit apparently. I don’t know the guy, never went there, never met him.

Don’t be shocked. The system is broken.

The absolute awfulness of how churches elevate men to near godhood is one of hundreds of reasons why we opted out of church. When you place a person in the spotlight and make them a “celebrity Christian” this is the shit that happens and will always happen.
What’d they expect? It happens all over the place, all the time. Unfortunately, it’s not even 1% shocking. If it’s not adultery, it’s embezzlement. If it’s not that it’s spiritual abuse. If it’s not that, it’s child abuse.

People all over the America have set up a faith-based social club system that is literally nowhere to be found in the Bible.

One man in charge of everyone? Nowhere. Government regulated faith communities? Nowhere. Pre-fabricated experiences with rock concerts for Jesus? Nowhere.
So, stop being shocked.

When people are told they “have to” participate in a system like this instead of following what’s prescribed in the Bible (i.e. real life community) and you put one guy in charge of the whole show, expect it.

This guy, who stood in front of thousands of people telling them how to live and what to think- this guy was PUTTING HIS PENIS INTO OTHER MEN’S WIVES IN THE NAME OF JESUS.

But, somehow, mark my words, he’ll be considered a victim. He was really a predator (using his position to lure women in) but he’ll be painted as a victim. This is what churches do and it’s damnable.

It’s disgusting.

Unplug from the Matrix. The RIDICULOUS focus on buildings, budgets, and bigshots is sucking the life out of you.

You don’t need someone telling you what to think and how to live. You need to dig into the Bible for yourself and figure it out. You also need to maintain and cultivate relationships in real life (not just on Wednesdays and Sundays) with people who will encourage you, admonish you, and spur you on to be better (see Hebrews 10:24-25).

**Real life community.** Not the bullshit you see at most churches.

No one man or person can do that for you. A talking head every Sunday can’t do that for you. You need God AND his people. You need real relationships with real people that happen in real life.

Not church.

Jesus said: “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.”

Paul told the early Christians in Corinth: “Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?”

Stop following men.

Men will fail you.

Stop relying on “a really good sermon” to make you somehow magically make you a better person. It won’t. Only God can do that. Stop drinking milk (i.e. breast milk is simply pre-digested food, a sermon- think about it) and dig in for yourself.

No man can save you.

No man can change the state your soul is in.

Only God can do that.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

Hey, I don’t see the pastor’s actions / behavior as abusive as much as I see control issues elsewhere. Image the abuse caused when a church closes it’s doors on Christmas Sunday.

The real Replacement Theology of substitution – changing the Lord’s Day into Family Day. Yikes!!!

It’s so funny when you see the Christmas protests of “Put Christ back into Christmas” – while at the same time removing the Mass from Christmas.

Jean says:

#97 is gold!

nathan priddis says:

@97

The transition from non-reform to reform has been underway for years. I have not really followed or appreciated the transition to Orthodox, such as you mentioned. I’m beginning to feel that far more people are looking to Orthodox theology then I realized.

Are you seeing strong growth in Orthodox congregations, or is a misunderstanding on my part?

nathan priddis says:

Blentil,

I understand your frustration. If you will recall the Scriptures, they paint a picture of a corrupted Church. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with such predictions.

With that said, I would gladly defend the CC’s. And even it’s leaders.

The Church, all of it, is built by God. It says in a certain place; ….”..blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me…”…
There is no true Church / Apostate Church. There is only one Church. As it says; …”One Lord, one faith, one baptism”…

Blentil..do not be offended by what the Lord as created, and who he has called out of the World.

Blentil says:

Martin Luther’s Disciple

Nice name.

Who is telling who (or is it whom?) that they “have to” participate in a system like this…”? I don’t see anyone holding a gun to anyone’s head. My contention is that the pewsters are just as guilty as the pastors in this train-wreck – co dependent – the pewsters have a great need to be controlled and the pastor’s accommodate them.

– I agree w/that point. Maybe we’re speaking past each other.

Then you say; “No man can save you. No man can change the state your soul is in. Only God can do that.” Where do you find the opposite of this being taught?

– Ha, you’re funny. The way pastors are lauded and treated as deity in America is sickening. Where do I find it? In almost every American pulpit.

John 20:29 says:

sadly, Blentil (is that code for something? or a real name?) can’t see the forest for the trees… well, that’s not quite the right analogy, but it’s the best i’ve got tonight…
the Church has some wonderful teachers and some incredible pastors with the hearts of a servant to both God and man…
humility is the ability to learn, not leap to conclusions, and by learning, discern… it is one of the main reasons, i think – dunno – that God hates pride…
it is true that our problem right now appears to be the celebrity pastor that so many are drawn to to the point of overwhelming their own spiritual growth and their One on one with God – but does the Church have new problems or just different emphases at different seasons?

London says:

When I was in college a million years ago, I was part of a small church that had a plurality of leaders from two churches that merged. Great people, loved it and they loved me.
I was part of a kinship group led by one of the the pastors and his wife, who had a HUGE impact on my life at the time. Over time, I became a part of their family in many ways that remain to this day.

After they lost a child, she became clinically depressed and basically not able to function. His reaction to the grief was to find solace with someone else for a short time.
Although the church did everything they could to help in every way possible, the marriage broke up. That whole episode has had lasting emotional consequences on everyone involved including them, their children, myself and others that were part of that church. The church, although there were other elders/pastors, never really recovered and eventually merged with another group which basically was the end of that.

It’s been many many years since all that happened. I’m so glad for every one involved that the internet wasn’t around at that time!! The emotional trauma that happened to their kids, which has only recently been started healing, was deep enough. To have to see their father’s face spread all over the internet with complete strangers commenting on the most awful thing that’s ever happened to their family would have been devastating.
I can’t even imagine how awful it would be to see someone you love talked about in forums like this by people who don’t even know them.

I have to go on record to say that I think these kinds of articles are wrong and do no good for the persons involved, their families, or their church. They make me sad and personally, I think they are simply gossip which we are told not to do.

Xenia says:

Drawing in the Sand, you seem to want people to tell their sins in public but you don’t even want your own name to be made public. Evidently, you wish your privacy to be respected. We shall respect it. Let’s respect other sinners’ privacy as well.

DrawingInTheSand says:

Xenia, thanks for summing up what I said in a very non-precise, generalistic, and judgmental way. For putting how you feel first and not considering others who are affected by leaders I see you are not fit for logical conversation, care for a flock, or governing of a church body. I welcome thoughtful commentary on what I said and the questions I raised earlier but at no point did I say I “want people to tell their sins in public”. Wow. Do you read?

Steve Wright says:

I see you are not fit for logical conversation, care for a flock, or governing of a church body
——————————————————————
My comments are posts 89 and 90 above.

I do my best on the logical conversation part, but definitely can check the boxes on the other two standards cited.

Sometimes, people disagree on the best course of action in difficult times. One does not have to attach harsh motives to why…

John 20:29 says:

an interesting question now rattling around in my head… which comes first the best interests of the individual Believer or the welfare of a segment of the Body of Christ?
i hate to say it, but if my husband had left me for another woman, i think i’d be finger pointing and shouting it all over the place – then i’d calm down and try to work thru an aspect of our sin nature with the children … dunno
from the kids i’ve known whose parent betrayed them along these lines and their custodial parent then, in the interests of their child(ren) having a respect for the parent, never said a thing derogatory about the wandering mate – it is, after all, by it’s very nature a public situation to one degree or another – it left those kids very confused… as does the sentence that i just typed here 🙂

Steve Wright says:

Here’s the thing. At the first pastor’s conference after Chuck died, in the summer of 2014, a major theme was transitions in ministry. The older making way for the newer. A core belief of CC and something Chuck himself talked about often (even if he practiced it imperfectly) There were some excellent messages and workshops and one of the best was Bob’s. He shared what he was doing personally to transition the leadership and the congregation to a next generation. I was encouraged and I hoped that much of the old guard among his peers were listening to him.

So when he resigned from the Sr. role (but not the church), I thought (and I know I was not alone in this among CC circles), YES! Here is a pastor that gets it, that still has the maturity and interest to care about the health of the church, even when he no longer is the Sr. Pastor. That is willing to serve the church without having to be the guy on stage to do so. That recognizes stepping down from the Sr. Pastor role does not mean you sit at home the rest of your days with no desire to worship at a church if you aren’t the one giving the sermon anymore.

I saw (and referenced on occasion to others) the church in Boise as a model for the future of the movement.

So personally, I am glad to know the truth. That such was not the case at all.

I really don’t like to go around touting what I think are mature, Godly examples of leadership when the truth is far from it….and I know from personal experience that when people praise who they remember as a “great man of God” it is not usually desirable or necessary to step in and correct them of their misconceptions with the truth.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

One way to try to evaluate this would be to consider – would this discussion about Bob Caldwell be appropriate on the front page of the New York Times? Before the internet that would have been the only option.

It probably should have remained in house.

CostcoCal says:

The Boise Herald (or National Enquirer) is far different than a Christian website, Steve.

JM says:

“Not many [of you] should be come teachers [self-constituted censors and reprovers of others], my brethren, for you know that we [teachers] will be judged by a higher standard and with greater severity [than other people].–Thus we assume the greater accountability and the more condemnation.” (James 3:1, Amp.)

“Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also may be fearful of sinning. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of his chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality [favor towards the offender].” (I Timothy 5:19-21, NASB)

“Do not be in a hurry in the laying on of hands–giving the sanction of the church too hastily [in reinstating expelled offenders or in ordination in questionable cases]–nor share or participate in another man’s sins; keep yourself pure.” (I Timothy 4:22, Amp.)

“But do not let immorality or any impurity or greed even be named among you, as is proper among saints;…And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness but instead even expose them;” (Ephesians 5:3 & 11, NASB)

“But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (John 3:21, NASB)

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

Michael – I wasn’t being critical of your post – but this is what should be – can ethics keep up with technology.
The point is that adultery is sin but it is not illegal and doesn’t really hurt society – so what is the news value — if the church has dealt with it?

As to Steve’s hero worship of Caldwell’s statement – what can I say? Why there are archived articles praising Caldwell I have no idea – I googled my pastor who has been a pastor 35 yrs, holds a doctorate, is published and I find nothing not related to our church or the synod. I am sure someone will go do a deeper search and find an article but it cannot be classified as ‘archived articles’. – the question is, who is doing the Caldwell praising – other CC pastors?

Steve Wright says:

Why there are archived articles praising Caldwell I have no idea …..who is doing the Caldwell praising – other CC pastors?
—————————————-
Because Alex went to his church a few times and met with him privately and shared what was a very positive experience and others shared what he shared.

So, no, not other CC pastors.

Steve Wright says:

To Michael’s recent point.

Caldwell was on the CC Council. He is now absent and his name has been absent from the letters involving the future of the movement.

I for one (and others) have noted that and have asked why. Did he resign the Council because he disagrees with their statements about Brian. Why did he not sign the letters if he did not resign? Does he disagree? Hey, did the Council vote to kick him off?

Well, now we know why he is absent, don’t we. Because of this blog.

And I happened to write the Council and use Bob as an example of my questions on this matter which does effect the future of OUR Calvary Chapel (and the other 1800 out there)

Maybe the Council members (those who might know the truth, if any) did not feel it was their job to tell CC pastors about his moral failing before the people of Boise knew. And rightfully so. I know I would be able to write a different letter now, and would do so, than I did 3 weeks ago.

It’s not “hero worship” to acknowledge his position of leadership and positive reputation gained in serving the Lord for decades, or the chain of repercussion down through Calvary Chapel beyond his one local church given the current split the movement is experiencing.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

I thought Caldwell left 6 months ago – why would he still be on the council?

I took out my Sharpie and blacked out the 8th commandment.

covered says:

In 2008, a fairly well known pastor/mission org pres fell into adultery. We all learned of the infidelity on a Fri. By Fri. afternoon, the BOD’s met including a very prominent person that was considered one of Chuck’s right hand men. They felt that they had two major issues to deal with. First, how do we keep this out of the papers? Second, how do we maintain our donor base? On the very next day at the Sat evening service at CCCM, Brian openly discussed what had happened from the pulpit.

This guy is now the right hand man to the new celebrity pastor, flavor of the month down in San Juan Capistrano.

I have much respect for Brian and how he didn’t try to hide or protect anyone.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

But we don’t know – so I assume the best and Michael and Steve… well.
But hey, you guys know the heart and mind of CC pastors better than I do – so perhaps you are right.

Steve Wright says:

MLD, other than Rahab saving the lives of God’s people, the Egyptian midwives lying about saving the lives of those little babies…where in your Bible do you see the celebration or accommodation of a lie?

This isn’t lying to Nazi soldiers about the Jews in your attic….this is about lying over sexual sin to avoid embarrassment, shame, and loss of status (and likely, income)

His lie did not protect an innocent 3rd party being hunted down for death. And as is in the Bible “his sin found him out”

Michael is a reporter here. Not the whistleblower. And he is doing a service that is, in fact, valuable to many (though heartbreaking indeed)

covered says:

That’s funny Michael. I often open up this blog thinking the same thing.

Steve Wright says:

covered…I am almost 100% sure I know the reference you cite…

Man, do I have a backstory on that one from over a decade prior….needless to say, I was not overly shocked at the news. Saddened, yes. Totally surprised? No.

Steve Wright says:

covered, to be clear, I was talking about the adulterous pastor from 2008

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

“Michael is a reporter here. Not the whistleblower. And he is doing a service that is, in fact, valuable to many (though heartbreaking indeed)”

I agree – so report away – but why are the comments open – that doesn’t facilitate the reporting.

No one is protecting a liar – the church handled it internally with their congregation and they said that Bob was to eventually address the congregation – so if the church knows and Bob may (he may not – he may chicken out) apologize, repent of the act and of the lie – but in the end, who is this conversation informing or helping.

Steve Wright says:

but in the end, who is this conversation informing or helping.
—————————————-
I thought I have said multiple times now, it informs and helps me – as a CC pastor, at this time in our movement’s history.

If you feel like you are rubbernecking, then get alone with the Lord and look in the mirror and consider maybe repenting.

I know I am perfectly happy these days staying away from some of the articles around here….

covered says:

I knew what you meant Steve. When the pastor was asked what the hell was he thinking? He responded that he believed the press. He felt that it was him that was doing all the amazing work and God was only the co-pilot. (Not his exact words but you get the gist)

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

But hey, this is an internal CC thing and I am rubbernecking – but hey there is absolutely no sin in that kind of entertainment — I mean it’s not like breaking the 8th commandment. 😉

Steve Wright says:

Without a board chosen by the congregation, but packed by the pastor – or have no expiration date – as I think your board pretty much has a life time shelf life – accountability papers can mean nothing.
———————————————————
MLD, when you move from opinion to errors of fact directed at me personally, you force me to respond because a whole lot of people are reading this thread and I am the one who posts by name. (I get messages regularly, privately, about this blog and my comments here)

So, since you bear your false witness here, I will clarify that

A) I did not pick one member of our current Board of Directors, as they were all placed there by my predecessor more than 8 years ago

B) I did in fact write, along with that same Board of Directors, our accountability guidelines which were not in existence before I became the Sr. Pastor. That explain how any of us in leadership, including me, can be removed.

C) We have deliberately kept this same Board of Directors until our financial obligation is concluded with my predecessor, which has been a wise decision given the history of these last 8 years. We have every intention of rotating the Board and believe me, I am more than eager to open the opportunity to others in the Body. (Although frankly, other than ongoing transition related matters, there is not a lot of sizzle in the typical Board business of our church. We are too broke to have much to talk about 🙂 )

Steve Wright says:

Thanks, Michael.

Yep, covered.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

Steve, I didn’t speak of you in particular but generalized the typical CC leadership function and pointed out one commonality with your church.
I had hoped that you would have recognized it sooner.

Stephen says:

Michael,

I can completely appreciate what you are saying. I don’t know if I could do what you do…the headaches (and ulcers) would make life…difficult…to say the least.

Whine on, as long as you need to. 😉

(I hear there is a market for macrame these days)

Jerod says:

Michael

If you ever feel like a mental vacation you can always blog about acid staining 50 year old interior concrete. God knows I need the help

🙂

Steve Wright says:

MLD, as I think I’ve told you before..I knew about your pastoral issue when it was happening. And not because you told me. Yeah, it may not have been highly publicized but your pastor did not lead a multi thousand mega church, nor was he removed for adultery disqualification. However, let’s not pretend more than a few of the disgruntleds didn’t share their frustration. How did I know about it if they did not?

What you describe DOES happen even in our “church culture” too. No fanfare outside of those who need to know as an issue is dealt with within the local church.

Steve Wright says:

I contend, and Google backs me up, that if you are famous enough pastoring at a large enough church, your adultery will make the news.

I also contend if you are obscure enough, it won’t. Church culture and denomination has nothing to do with it except to the level they may try to cover it up…the Catholics had a culture for their evil too, until the media exploded the story

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

Steve, you still miss the point. My claim wasn’t if folks outside knew. Part of the anger comes because the church in Boise has not posted the letter on it’s own website and that they have not posted the video of the service / including the announcement on the website – as the church is expected to publicly shame the pastor. – and this would be expected from any church in your system that is large enough to have it’s own website.

In Boise’s case, they are taking the heat after they handled the issue. The church is now whole and you and yours won’t allow it to remain that way. Again, string them up the way you want to.

Steve Wright says:

Oh please, you haven’t just moved the goalposts but the whole stadium. This discussion is not about anger at the church for not posting something online. That has only been referenced briefly, and only because 1) they promised to and 2) Michael was getting crap from some offblog demanding corroboration.

Xenia says:

None of this is any of my business but for the sake of the PhxP, here’s my opinion: Yes, the sins of a famous pastor should be made public as far as he has had influence. If he had a national audience and a national leadership role, I guess the nation needs to know (in the briefest way possible) what happened. As for the other people involved, unless his partner in crime is also a well-known person, let her sins be between her family, her God and herself.

The PhxP is a news source for the Calvary Chapel world, odd as that may be. So be it.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

I think Bob should be fired. I have no problem with that at all – in fact it is the only thing to do. But, do you put wanted posters all over town? Perhaps you do.

Steve, “Likewise, when this stuff is covered up,…” now you have gone back to accusing Boise of a cover up that needs to be exposed.

Bob says:

Puts a whole new spin on the term lay minister

Erunner says:

Lots of opinions offered here validly from different perspectives.

Many years ago I had concern for family members who would happen upon this site and then read some tough things about a spouse, father, child, etc. I stated as much.

In stories like this I always think to the powerful message one of our members shared from the perspective of the guilty pastor. I still believe it is a must listen for all of us.

Hopefully true healing and reconciliation can be achieved by the two impacted families.

Alice says:

I have attended CC Boise for over a decade, and I was there on Sunday. I’m all over the place with my feelings. I’m heartbroken, hopeful, angry, hurt, feel betrayed, faithful, reminded that in the end Christ is the only one I can truly expect to be perfect. I love my church, and I’m so very sad for Tucker. I can only imagine what he is going through.

Michael (blog owner), thank you for providing a place where I can read all these comments and sift through my own feelings.

Michael, I might regret asking, but in #41 you said, “The one who cought him said to resign or they would go public.” Is it still your understanding that BC’s short notice resignation came after someone threatened to publicize the affair if he didn’t step down?

I am struggling to process this part of it the most. We all knew he was making a transition plan, as he had previously gently prepared us for the change that would take place in 1-3 yrs. But I felt shocked by his short term resignation in March. And I felt guilty for being upset about it at the time. If God was leading him in that decision, I thought I should happily accept God’s plan. Now I’m realizing that the timing wasn’t God’s perfect Plan A, and I didn’t need to beat myself up for being upset about it in March.

dusty says:

Why do they always liken themselves to KingDavid…they are not kings. Sigh.

King David was not a pastor called by God to be a religious leader. He was not explaining the Bible to his royal subjects. That was Davids

The church is not the pastor’s royal subjects. His palace. His kindom.

That is just messed up

Oh No says:

I’ve been reading this Blog for 10 years and MLD seldom agrees with anyone. Stop taking the bait!

covered says:

Hi Alice, welcome to the PP. You and your church family will be prayed over by many here. I couldn’t help but notice your last sentence, a statement about not needing to “beat yourself up for being upset.” I am sorry that you felt the need to beat yourself up about anything that your pastor said or did. Bob has hurt you and finding out that someone you love and trust has fallen, is betrayal. Betrayal hurts. It hurt Jesus and it will hurt us. I hope that you are looking forward to what God can do to restore all those who worship at CC Boise.

Oh No says:

MLD

Expressing my point would be taking your bait.

Tam Nal says:

Alice, I am a member of the church too and have experienced all those same emotions. These days I have been plunged into a dark place as i struggle spiritually, emotionally, and even physically since I haven’t been sleeping well.

Part of my struggle is not knowing how long I sat under Bob and learned from him that he was carrying on this affair. Many of the things he said from the “pulpit” have been ringing in my head these days and I dont know what was sincere or what was just meaningless words as he went through the motions of being a career pastor.

Then, today I found release after I listened to the audio one more time since Sunday. I appreciate the leaders statement and Bobs confession he wrote. But gently God spoke to my heart and said my days at Calvary chapel Boise are over. I know Tucker and the leadership will do great in navigating this chaos and I pray God lead them and heal everyone that chooses to remain at CC Boise.

Calvary Chapel Boise is just a church (note the use of a lower case “c”) but we are the Church with an uppercase “C” and the gates of hell will not prevail against us. The wood, hay, and stubble will burn. It what’s left is gonna be golden. Keep the faith and hope friends.

John 20:29 says:

dusty’s 206 is something that needs to be a reminder to us all – true Truth

also, having covered the ground one time long ago myself, i am certain that God’s Truth can be spoken by a pastor who is going thru turmoil in his private life or thoughts… and that Truth can bless the hearer … how many sinning priests have performed the liturgical rites (not my cup of tea) of their church and blessed the worshippers in spite of who was officiating, i wonder?

it is IMV possible for a pastor to love God’s truth, celebrate it from the pulpit, and yet not be qualified for the office because of the personal struggles that dominate him in his own life… it doesn’t make him a devil (necessarily), nor does it mean that he is not redeemed (perhaps, perhaps not), but it does mean that he’s walking on thin ice with God by hanging onto his pastorate when it is clear in scripture that he’s not to be doing what he’s doing on either end…

Alice says:

Scooter referenced:
Isaiah 54:10 For the mountains may depart
and the hills be removed,
but my steadfast love shall not depart from you,
and umy covenant of peace shall not be removed,”
says the Lord, who has compassion on you.

Perfect! Thank you Scooter! And yes, Tucker’s words are sobering. Bob became what he harted and didn’t realize it. If a man that in love with God, and I have no doubt, could be deceived, then we must all guard our hearts from Satan. It’s only slightly reassuring to me that as a non- pastor I may be under less attack than a man like BC that had such a special, gentle way of reaching so many for the Lord.

Thank you everyone for your kind words.

Tam, I hope you are hearing the Lord correctly in your choice to leave. You might wait for reassurance of that, to be sure it isn’t human emotion. I am proud of the way the current CCB leadership is heading, and I am starting to feel excited for our future this evening. Thanks everyone!

Dual Citizen says:

Tam Nal

I don’t know you, so forgive the comment if it’s not helpful.

First let me say I understand your hurt. Many years ago I used to bear no sympathy with those who felt disillusioned by the church. After being kicked out of my non denominational denomination as a pastor for having a variation on a secondary aspect of theology (not for sin), and being subsequentially slandered by leaders and old friends, etc. I started to understand. The only thing that got me through that time was knowing God’s sovereignty and plan for his church.

Can I just say though, that in your pain I have a concern that you effectively lose the church by being the church. The local church is not church with a small c. The universal church does not exist without the local, and this makes the local church vitally important. All the NT letters are written to local churches. They may not have been mega churches, but they were clearly established with elders and deacons. They were not only organic cells, but they had clearly defined leadership. The only places where they were embryonic, like in Ephesus and Crete specifically, Paul instructed his co labourers to finish the job and get proper leadership in place. I have nothing against house churches, as the church I pastor now functioned as groups that live life as church truly and then multiple groups gathering on a Sunday together under shared eldership in a rented building. However, it breaks my heart when I hear people say they want to “take a break fro church”. We don’t need to worship men, as I too learned. But we do need leadership and a defined local church (a group of God’s called out and collected ones) for our spiritual health and in fact to ensure the health of the leaders. It’s all symbiotic and we all need each other.

I would encourage you to first meet with one of your pastors and give your reasons for wanting to leave and ask to be sent out. If they are unavailable as sometimes happens in mega churches then meet with whoever you have contact with in some form of leadership (you may have done this already – so forgive me if you have). They need to know reasons so they can grow, or perhaps they may actually pastor you through this, and perhaps you might b apart of the redemption story. I’m not necessarily pushing that as I have a different ecclesiology than Calvary now, but I am respecting the family you are currently apart of. I suspect the newer leaders are closer to my ecclesiology now than before though,

Once sent from them, finding a new local expression of the body should be undertaken with care in regards to gospel doctrine and then a shared philosophy of how to walk as church. Because of God’s faithifulnees, I have to believe there will be a house church, a church plant, or even a bigger established church with qualified leaders who you can grow with, encourage, support, and work with for the glory of God.

I don’t live in the USA right now and have met leaders from all over the world in various movements. Even if they are smaller or house church, the healthy ones always have clearly defined leadership, etc.

Overall, place your faith in Jesus as you’ve been doing, but Jesus in inextricably tied together with his people who are the church expressed primarily in local organised fellowship with the marks of the true church. Seeking God will be in His community, if that’s from home you still needs the gifts of leaders to you and they’ll need your part of the body as well.

I know all the parties involved very well and have as much room for hurt as anyone,so I’m not speaking merely from cold logic, but out of concern for how you might glorify God and enjoy Him and his people in the midst of their mess, and all of our brokenness

Love in Christ

victorious says:

Tam Nal
You hit the nail in the head with this:

“These pastors are usually surrounded by other junior pastors, in Bobs case all of them very young, none his equal in age and influence thus making him far too superior for correction. ”

This applies not only in preventing s pastor from falling morally but this inhibits the maturity development of the senior leader and the overall leadership and the entire body .

John 20:29 says:

i am concerned about the trend to pull away from the organized churches in favor of going it alone with the Lord… i realize and have experienced the organization getting in the way of my own spiritual growth as well as getting between me and the Lord – there IS a spiritual dynamic that is One on one that can get lost in the desire for activity and, yes, even intellectualism as defined in the secular…
what concerns me is that one needs to be taught and, with a few exceptions, most of us don’t do that well on our own… we don’t seem to have many sound, disciplined teachers out there today…
my question is, is it wrong for pastors to have teachers (ongoing) from whom they regularly intake sound and pertinent doctrines which they then can simply pass on to their flocks?
i think someone touched on this before here… i think a case can be made for doing it this way

Tam Nal says:

John 20:29,

Teaching is absolutely necessary. I happen to work a job where I can listen to podcasts all day long. This allows me to tap the massive archive of great teachings online. But I agree, not everyone does so well studying alone but I don’t think following the Senior Pastor model guarantees quality teaching.

The months leading up to Bobs resignation his Sunday and Wednesday teaching was garbage. Many times I wondered if he even prepared. In one of his sermons he was on a tangent and said that if we (the congregation) were tuned into God he could be up there speaking nonsense and we’d still get something out of it. My thought at the time was “yeah, maybe you’re right but would you send your kids to go dig through a dumpster to find dinner or would you carefully prepare a meal for them?”

It’s for this reason that I was so relieved when Tucker and Reggie took the stage I was like “yes! Finally something I can chew on.” And once Tom Velasco was introduced I have been moved all the more.

My point is, when the entire “meal” is cooked and served by one pastor it often times lacks inspiration and nutrition. Many time the pastors is just doing his “job.” I would like to see a more well-rounded preaching and teaching base not a one man show. But the “one man show” is what the up and coming pastors aim for. It is the pinnacle objective of most career pastors. I think this is a serious flaw. Aren’t there many members in one body?

Tam Nal says:

So true J KELLER. It has been an awkward year. Especially for the Caldwell family and the people closest to the situation. My heart is broken for them. It may not sound like it from reading my posts but I’m just venting. I want to lash out at the establishment because in my mind it’s part of the problem. But really I’m just hurt. I want it all to go away. So, everyone please excuse me…I’m just boiling over here.

John 20:29 says:

praying for all who are now having to walk the walk thru this morass – as someone implied in this thread… keep your eyes upon Jesus Christ – He NEVER fails us

Bart says:

I’ve been trying to process this. It’s not processing. Not that I’m in shock someone fell. It happens. It’s just that Calvary Chapel has been one of the best things that happened to our family and also one of the worst. Bob was part of the best times.

When I first stepped in the doors of CC Boise in 1996, Bob still had a lot of hippie left in him. So did the church. The worship team was a couple of ladies, one on guitar and the other on flute, I think. Bob walked up to the podium in jeans, t-shirt (summer in Boise) flashed a ‘peace sign’ and asked us how we were doing. A full beard and hair to his shoulders, this was unlike any pastor I had ever seen.

Bob is probably the only pastor that has used the word ‘bogart’ in a sermon. As in, no one gets to bogart all the gifts of the spirit, God gives liberally.
Did we idolize Bob? Yes we probably did. Did I drink the Calvary kool-aid? Absolutely. I no longer am a young earth advocate; I can drink a glass of wine or enjoy fine bourbon or single malt and maybe a fine cigar, and not feel guilty.

We learned to live in community with other believers, we grew in love and fellowship, bore each other’s burdens and celebrated our blessings. Some of the people we knew then are still very dear friends.

Then in 2001, we moved to Washington State where we ran into the Calvary that is responsible for some of the deepest hurts and wounds my family has experienced.
By 2004 we finally left the church when the pastor literally used two couples in the church to set me up in responding to specific questions and then used my words against me. We were devastated, this manipulation and pastoral abuse had been going on for 3 years and we literally didn’t know what to do.

It was around this time that I came across the PP through the Christianity Today article on Skip. And what I found astounded me. I wasn’t the only one that this had happened to. As a matter of fact, what my family and I experienced was mild in comparison to some of the stories I read on this blog.

I tried talking to my friends back at CC Boise, even spoke to an assistant pastor and an elder. But it was very clear: protect the dove. So I found an outlet for my story here.
Sometime later, I received a call from one of the elders at the CC we no longer attended and wanted to talk. To my wife and me, he apologized for not standing up to the pastor in the midst of the abuse he was causing to us and to a number of other families and individuals. When the church attendance was half or less of what it was, he was recalled behind the Orange curtain for reprogramming.

This elder then informed us that there was a new pastor and many of the families that had left were returning. I wasn’t ready to return, but my wife and daughter went and was received well and she said it felt safe. I went the following Sunday and after the service I went to shake hands with one of the other elders and mentioned that it was nice to be back. He looked me right in the eye and said, ‘Well Bart, we’re not sure about you. Because of what you have been posting on the PP, we’re not sure you will be a fit here.’
Against my better judgement, my wife and I agreed to meet with the pastor and elders after everyone had left. I was then informed that if I wanted to fellowship with them, I would have to call the former pastor and be reconciled. Threw Matthew 18 at me. The pastor said we could call right now; he had the other pastor standing by. I looked at him and said, ‘So essentially, for me to return to this church I have to kiss his a**.’ This got me a stern look and then a repeat of Matthew 18. My wife is crying at this point and she said, ‘Don’t you realize what the man has done to our family?’ Then she started sobbing. The betrayal was complete. The first elder was able to appease his conscience from earlier actions, these minions were able to perform a righteous act of protecting the church, and we were left with nothing.

Apparently, one of the penances that the original pastor had to do on his road to recovery and return to pastoral duties was to call each person he wronged and ask for forgiveness. I have yet to receive that call. His is a known CC name. I still have to forgive him at least a couple of times a month when the anger and bitterness just pops up.
I also found out that I was trolled by the second pastor and his minions on the PP. I remember answering a request on a post for a private email exchange of stories. They misrepresented themselves and got me to name names.

In 2011, we moved back to Boise. We were under no illusions that things would be the same, it had been 10 years since we had been to a Sunday service. What we found was a very young, urban, hip congregation. And Bob was hip now too. We probably went a dozen times, and what I realized and was saddened by is that weekend services had become the Bob Show. That’s how it looked to us on the outside looking in.

We just don’t go to church anymore. That’s another long sad story. But you know what? My faith and understanding of His Grace is stronger than ever.
I guess I needed to share my story one more time as I process this.

Scooter Jones says:

I noticed on the recording of the Sunday service at CCBoise, the new pastor said he was pastoring a church in downtown Boise before?

Was that also a CC church, anyone know?

As far as the vision that woman had during that service before he took over the reigns at CCB, makes me wonder if the timing of things could have been different IF he had gone directly to Bob Caldwell with that in March and asked him if it meant anything to him?

Col46 says:

Bart – “We just don’t go to church anymore.” That breaks my heart, I’m so sorry for the things that man has done to bring heart ache to your family. May you soon find a church that you can truly call home.

There is Hope in Him says:

I found this site on Monday the day after I sat in church and was shocked beyond words to hear about my pastor Bob Caldwell. It has been encouraging to read others thoughts, ideas, opinions and so now I would like to share my thoughts (good or bad) each of us are processing this horrific time in our church. I have incredible moments of sorrow, anger and very pissed off at Bob and his mistress. Right or wrong his is how I feel. And then in this cloud of unbelief and wondering if this is a nightmare there is peace that surpasses all understanding and it is Jesus.

Both my husband and I have attended CC Boise for over 30 years, I was saved in this church and baptized by Bob. I have witnessed many different growing pains, changes/etc in all these years under Bob’s teaching of the word. God gifted Bob with an incredible gift of teaching, I saw lives changed and miracles happen under his pastor-ship. The Caldwell family is one of the most giving non-judgmental families you will ever know. Cathy, a beautiful woman with a true inner beauty of God’s love for others, I mean this literally. This family had no boundaries of helping and loving people.

For a few years Bob’s messages changed and it was no longer a deep focus on the WORD, it was dead in many ways however God’s word will not be mocked. Now we know why, Bob was living a deceitful fraudulent life, a complete LIE. I could write a lot more but this is enough on Bob, he is facing unmanageable pain and suffering. I do believe he is in full repentance but his life is forever changed.

Now we move to 2017 which will be rough but God is God and we will be restored in faith, grace and back into the WORD. Our pastors may be young, however they handled this situation with a spiritual maturity that was straightforward, amazing and comforting at the same time. If you have the opportunity to hear the message from the 18th, it was powerful and I do not mean about the adultery affair, put that aside this message the Tucker shared is powerful.

Please all that read this just take a moment and lift this church up in prayer and the Caldwell family.

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. John 14:27

S Miller says:

This thread has has some great discussion points and its vital to be able to communicate to the people beyond the spin or little information they are going to get because that is the way we do church now. It is now up to each believer to get in the ‘School of Discernment’ and learn from each and every church experience you go through. This is a big one for most here and those of us who attended CC Boise for years feel its vital!

Tam Mal – your comments have been so beautiful and well written they almost brought me to tears. I could have written them and have said those exact words to my friends who also left CC Boise in a slow group exodus. These are not the bitter, disenfranchised you hear tail of – they are people who have been there from the early days on Longmont, the tent days – serving in every corner of ministry there. They were invested richly along with their families and they’ve seen the writing on the wall for a long time. Could it be this so called crisis is a tool to get everyones attention off the celebrity and back on the Lord? They made him a King or allowed and enabled it and now this situation that seems like an isolated incident is happening. It did not “just happen in a vacuum or test tube.” It has been coming on for a long time. Each time an elder or staff member tried to address the power structure and were shot down it came closer to a test. Meeting after meeting – elder after well intentioned elder have been trying to get a grip on him for a long time now. The people didn’t know it because he was so very good at telling them he had men around him he was accountable to. Check! Do not look at the adultery as the big or only issue here but see the entire system that led to this big bang of an announcement. We have experienced all you talked about and were also tired of being faceless nameless numbers no matter how many social groups they tried to throw at us via Zipcode or Neighborhood Care Group.

There is so much we could say here we have to hold back! When we first arrived at CC Boise we raved about how wonderful it was and I myself personally recruited many friends there. I was sure they were doing things right. I had hope! I started to pick up on the Red Flags fairly quickly because I was on staff at a mega-church before going there and I knew the signs! I was amazed at how quickly things seemed to pop up there overnight – like a coffee shop – a new thrift store location after the fire – a ministry here, a ministry there. That is till I asked my friends who were on staff if they knew about all these things before hand – Not! Bob singlehandedly ran and micro-managed almost everything there. It was his baby! I started to see he was a one-man band. He could do church with or without anyone else there – if fact those pesky elders often slowed things down. So instead of waiting on projects or spending money he would go ahead and do it and they had better look out! Yes men elders who could nothing to stop the bullet train just as I had seen before. The next stage is when elders are quickly replaced by younger and younger inexperienced men till you are choosing them out of the 5th Grade Classroom. A common solution. Is Tucker really ready to handle this very complicated situation? How can he possibly be ready after a short tenure at best. Even with counselors and advisors it is going to be a challenge. My thoughts after listening to the audio is Bob is still pulling some strings in a way they don’t see. There are never enough questions you can ask but who are you going to be able to ask? They sound like they are barely coping though trying their best. It is a system many believe the Lord is changing. If it ever was right to have a Celebrity Pastor King it isn’t now! How else can He get our attention except through situations such as these. As with Saul the Lord told the people You wanted a King – you’ve got one! Now deal with it! I’m praying for the people there who don’t know what just happened and may be swept away again by another one if they are not careful.

Tam Nal says:

S Miller,
It is for this reason I am reluctant to join another church. It’s not going to be any different somewhere else. Institutional church is become like our own government, so big that it needlessly takes enormous amounts of money, manpower, and time to maintain it.

It is not this way in other countries. I keep bringing this up because I am coming at this from an international perspective. If the Christians in other countries had just a small portion of what it takes to operate one of these big churches it would sustain them for years. But not here in America. Bigger is always better. We are constantly urged to bring our money to the storehouse, give our time to serve by passing out announcements, volunteer our time for the nursery, do this, do that! And we do it gladly because we feel it’s for the good of the kingdom and we think it is necessary. But it isn’t. It is only good and necessary for the institution. They need it to maintain this monstrosity and they need us to believe we need to do it.

I have a friend that has gone to ccboise for years but lately she has been two-timing the church. She has been going to another local church on alternating weeks to get fed but because she is so committed to ccboise she still comes and serves when it’s her turn. Such commitment! Such love and hopeful loyalty. But the truth is what she does is just an insignificant drop in the enormous bucket it takes to operate ccboise. Just think if that same commitment and love was channeled for the kingdom of God! How would that change her life? How would that change the lives of people around? I feel like we are being used!

The American institutional church is like a fancy 18 wheeler semi-truck loaded with all the goods and resources one could ever desire. Both tanks are filled with premium fuel. It is in high gear and at full throttle but sadly it sits atop a large patch of ice and barely inches forward. For all the fuel spent to make this big truck go the tires just spin in place.

If our humble brothers and sisters around the world could see this they would be ashamed.

There I go boiling over again.

J Keller says:

P.s. We totally get the boiling over thing – we are trying to hold ourselves back!

Tam Nal says:

Wow J KELLER!
You mean that these feelings I have about the system is an actual thing that someone wrote a book about?! What a relief! I thought I might be being one of “those guys,” you know what I mean?

Thank you for those words of wisdom.

J Keller says:

Yes that was my reaction too! Like we aren’t alone in this after alll and there are others like us! We were taught very extensively at our former church against being a Lone Ranger and how important it is to be safely undercover or under authority and anyone who begs to differ – or question that – is a maverick potentially leading others astray. So it’s not like we were looking for this development in our walk. Later we realized it was cult-like training but it was sure hard to shake once we started thinking for ourselves. We didn’t want to repeat the same mistake we made at the church we had come from – giving too much esteem to the pastor and his family which I realized later was a form of idolatry and had to repent of that – so when we got to CCB even though Bob could have been idol material we knew we just couldn’t participate that way knowing what it did to our hearts before. But if you talk about that to people they think you are rebellious. Anyway, the book contains interviews with people who feel they are done with it all and how they got there. The authors don’t seem to have an agenda since they themselves are involved in their own churches but they felt the need to study this as sociologists. I would encourage anyone to read it who feels the church system is not working for them anymore. It’s only 143 page and you can get it on Amazon.com. Published in 2015

Tam Nal says:

J Keller, so you stay in the IC after knowing what you know. Why? Are you satisfied and equipped?

Bart says:

Wow, just read a Q&A with Josh Packard on Patheos. I am part of ‘The Dones’ as well. He had some good points.
I don’t miss the music though.OK, I miss the music from about 15 years ago. Quieter.
One of the things I realized about church that made it easier to be done, was that every Sunday I left church feeling like I hadn’t done enough.
I hadn’t prayed enough, served enough, studied enough, evangelized enough, or gave enough. You work all week, putting up with all the world can throw at you, paying the bills, raising the kids, and then go to the one place where you hope to find peace only to be told you still haven’t done enough.
I’m really beginning to believe that three of the most overlooked words in the Bible are: “It is finished!”

Bart says:

Thank you Jean, I am going to hold on to that one.

J Keller says:

Tam – no we left CCB in 2014 – my heart was only there for a few years after we left our former church that we served in for over 10 years – attended there 20 – our children were raised in that church. We attended CCB for 8-10 years I think. When we came to CCB we were so delighted with how different it was than our other church and like I mentioned before we admired how much Bob got done and how trendy he was in a good way. We called CCB the Good Church. But even so I didn’t have the stomach or even the leading of the Lord to get involved not wanting to repeat the former scenario. I did wonder what was wrong with me though – I stayed home on Sunday and watched Bob on TV at 9:30 but would go to church every other Sunday. I remember deciding I’m not going to fight this anymore and will not force anything. I was done with that method. It’s like forcing yourself to love someone out of obligation rather than truth. If I feel to go I will and if I need to stay home I will. When I did go to church I felt the need to sit in the foyer with my friend – I was a foyer person lol. We used to see Cathy sitting out there too sometimes. Was she a foyer person too we wondered? Anyway my husband still wanted to be part of a church like he was in our former church so he jumped right in and got about as close as you can be serving serving serving. (Even when 2 people are married their individual faith walk is an individual thing so we chose to give grace to each other during this time. Our children were grown so we didn’t have that factor to worry about like we would have if they were younger). My husband being up close did afford him the opportunity to observe. My friend reminded me he is in his own school. At first he celebrated the differences between the two leadership styles but as time passed he began to see striking similarities in how church is set up. Like you said it’s like a huge ocean liner or fuel tanker truck designed to fit the needs of the one in charge of it and the cost of keeping it going isn’t just financial. It dawned on us that this was the same model but the style was different. Hello. We liked Bobs style better but he was driven by the same motivations it was seeming. But how else is someone going to really know and this was not only my husbands school but ours as we looked on. Bob thought I was jaded and one time asked me why Christians like me become that way. Kind of ringing in my ears with this new development lol. In reiterating our former church experience – the money issues and such – he said ya but does it always have to go like that? Wasn’t able to answer that then but today I can say yes Bob in this system it does go like that. You are a tax exempt 501c3 and free to use church money in whatever way you want to. And the money is entrusted to the driver of the big ship by the faithful people who want to give to God. Don’t get me started.

All that to say – finding that qualitative study – I accidentally said quantitative before – in the Church Refugee book really helped define where we are in relation to the church. It made us realize it’s ok to just meet in a small group with people you care for and care for you. My husband was especially appreciative of this sociological study having given his all to not only one but two churches in varying degrees respectively- he wanted to buy a case of them as gifts! Since we do want to stay in tune with Gods Word and not forsake the assembling we meet every Sunday we can with our friends and have seen so many answers to prayer for our families and in our various careers since we started praying for one another. We don’t exactly know what we are doing but the Lord has given us various study themes. The first one we did was The Story which is an overview of the Bible. Each week we did a chapter – there’s a workbook study guide. We thought it would be good for new Christians in case we led anyone to the Lord!

If you ever want to go to coffee we are open but no pressure. Just want to be available in case you could use another friend or two. And let’s extend that invitation to anyone here in Boise reading who we can lend an ear to. Not trying to start a new cult church either although some may beg to differ. But in all honesty what has helped us the most in healing is having each other to process all this together with in freedom and no fear; venting and listening and researching and studying and going through the Bible at BSF on Wednesdays too so we stay in the Word in a methodical way that has helped us too. (Yes they meet in an IC but one of the rules is you can’t talk about or promote your church thankfully.) Yes we are discovering that you can meet as friends without becoming a 501c3 thank you!
?☕️✝️

Xenia says:

Folks, how ’bout some paragraph breaks? Huge blocks of text don’t work well on blogs.

J Keller says:

Bart – that was how we felt when leaving our former church! I remember leaving feeling worse than when I came and it dawned on me this couldn’t be what the Lord meant when He told us to meet with each other. It wasn’t always like that but it became like that. Eventually it occurred hey I don’t have to live like this – I am living as an American in the land of the free home of the brave! I can choose! Looking back it was becoming the time to go – we each came to this on our own, by the way, in individual timing – no one was pressuring the other.

I was always going through weird painful stuff trying to get myself in line with what I was supposed to be at that church and it was painful so I would periodically ask the Lord if we were to be there. It never was the best fit but there were obviously good things too or I couldn’t have stayed. But my husband and children saw me cry in pain more than once. The Lord used the music as a source of pain for me the most. I had died to myself over and over but through it all the Lord gave me a different way to be musical out of it – a window – and blessed me with that instead. I didn’t get much support from people in the church because it didn’t have anything to do with the church. The Lord used all of it but it doesn’t excuse any bad behavior experienced there. In my personal journey of forgiveness I remember that and it’s easier to let it go. I can also see more clearly, now that I am older, that I needed to grow as a musician and they wanted the best of the best. Yes only the best for them. Unless you were related to the pastor then it didn’t seem to matter as much. I would’ve never made it in the show it is now though in most churches of that style. To be fair and honest, I did develop as a singer there because of all the worship experience so like I said there were good things and I’m grateful they gave me a place to use my gift for as long as they did. When the Lord allowed them to shut the door on that I learned other things that I am grateful for. Like my friend says, we are always in school. Now I’m in a new one. Letting go of my music for different reasons but I am learning I can trust the Lord with the gift He gave and it’s up to Him with how to use it. Or whether I need to replace my piano with a big comfy chair for that corner of the room. I’m so totally aware I wouldn’t even have the music if it weren’t for Him giving it – my Reason to sing in the first place….

I do miss worship with others – that intimate setting type but I don’t miss the hype and the frenzied high it became. I am so glad I don’t have to endure any rock star worship I hear about either with the light shows. Neither of the churches had rock star worship but I think the former one would have it if they could. What I did like about Calvary is they kept it simple.

But in my school I think the Lord had to remove the worship completely so He could clean it out and as He puts it back in it is only about Him even just here in my living room with no one else but Him. I couldn’t even listen to worship for awhile but He has gently given me a few artists I can hear that seem pure in their sincerity. Not that I can judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart but He knows me and what I can take. Music is a very subjective personal thing – what works for one may not work for the other.

Ok bye for now – it is snowing outside in Boise and beautifully white but I have errands?

Oh one last thought. My favorite Christmas cd this year is Unto Us by JJ Heller. Sweet and unassuming and captures the Spirit of Christmas in an endearing way. You can hear her on iMusic if you have an iPhone or Amazon Music too I think. I bought her Cd for two friends. Another I love is Christmas Worship Vol 2 by Paul Baloche – I had to buy that for myself and a friend too but you can hear it online as well. And with that I bid you farewell till later fellow Refugees (and those who are not refugees as well)
??☕️

Xenia says:

Col46 it has nothing to do with grammar rules. If they want people to read what they have written, they need to break it up a bit. Most people will not read dense blocks of text.

Col46 says:

Xenia – I am…and it is heart breaking

Tam Nal says:

I read through all my comments and it really shows what a roller coaster I’ve been on.

I cycled from sadness to anger. I showed brave determination then fear. I lashed out in desperation then finally came some revelation. What a crazy mind-bend!!

If any ccboise readers can relate maybe this will comfort you:

I was laying on the couch thinking over the type of things talked about in this thread. I lay there with this sad blank stare. I just couldn’t find a hopeful resolution to anything. After a long while I realized my eyes were fixed on this painting I have on my wall. In it is this tall lighthouse perched on a precipice overlooking a stormy sea. The sky black with these huge ominous clouds.

The Lord spoke to my heart and said “the church (Institutional church) is the lighthouse. A building built by man, however it does serve a purpose. It warns passing ships of dangerous rocks. Don’t despise the lighthouse, it does what they made it to do. But, I am not the lighthouse. Look out at sea.”
In the painting, out in the midst of these dark clouds and black water is a place where light breaks through the clouds. It lights up a small patch of the water below with a beautiful golden light. The place where the light touches the sea is at peace, the water many beautiful shades of blue. The Lord spoke to my heart again and said “There I am! Come to me!”

I thought “oh lord I WILL come to you … but that water looks awfully dangerous. It’s probably cold too. I’m not a good swimmer. What about sharks?!” Like my comments in this thread I started by making a bold proclamation “I WILL come to you!” but my heart shrank back in fear. Just then in a beautiful moment of blessed imagination I saw myself in the bow of an old wooden row boat as it bravely tacked into the oncoming waves, away from the shore where the lighthouse stood. I was headed directly towards the patch of light. It was exhilarating as the boat breached these massive waves. I looked back to see the strong arms of my Lord firmly on the oars of this old boat propelling us forward.

We are not alone. He is with us. Go to Him!

John 20:29 says:

a question: which is less pleasing to the Lord, the faithful servant who, for a variety of reasons messes up his personal life (and in doing so creates collateral damage) or the personality folk amassing great 5 figure personal wealth off of “performing” for Jesus in front of the cameras? … not talking about the pastors of large churches’ perhaps too large salaries, but rather those who plead, “send in your $$s – any amount will help – so we can keep spreading the gospel” – a gospel which seems to center around how good and talented they are…
as a Christian i think that i’d rather face the Lord having committed adultery than as one having a 5 figure personal bank account built off of “tithes and offerings,” i think … thinking … thinking…

DrawingInTheSand says:

Sorry I fell so far behind in this discussion…

JM, post #130 supports my point about exploring the possible need for just outing all of the truth and not hiding any of it. Privacy and cover up, synonymous. Healing begins after the flushing of a wound.

But then I read “Believer in Boise’s” post #225 which addressed my earlier desire for a discussion about outing all the players, namely the other side of this affair. I was wrongfully making the mistress a part of Bob’s full truth and part of a cover up. Pleased re-read that if necessary before blasting me with non-thought through statements. But that’s why I called for a discussion, not a “hanging”.

I wasn’t thinking about whether the mistress had come forth and confessed on her own. I guess the idea behind Biblical correction is that each party owns their own junk. So if one party chooses to cover up, they need to be approached by two and asked to repent, and then make it public. Did she come forth and repent?

So PBC sinned and he chose to repent publicly, she sinned… if she did repent good, if not… where do we stand on this Biblicly in terms of Church discipline? We keep kicking around King Dave as an example and yet we all know who Bathsheeba is. Just curious the comparrison here doesn’t seem to serve. If Bathsheeba had refused King Dave what might have happened to her or her family? King David did have her husband killed, so maybe we can say she is cleared for her side of the affair, but then again others have chosen to risk their lives to obey God in scripture, maybe she was guilty in her own way? I don’t think the Bible is clear on this. Bob, I’m guessing didn’t threaten anyone and make them have an affair with him so I’m guessing she is as guilty as he, and yet she gets a pass? Again, this is not for my own curiosity, I would prefer not to know who she is unless it is for her good, the churches good, the will of the Holy Spirit etc. It just seems as we aim our attention at PBC, she should get equal attention. Thus my name on this post, why just apply Biblical discipline to one party. To anyone’s knowlege has she repented, been asked to step down, under any kind of church discipline or was PBC spell to strong and it’s just all his fault? How do we divide this?

S Miller Your post #240 IS EXACTLY what I’m asking about, Biblical procedure followed in love, without a bunch of crying about keeping anything private because it makes someone else uncomfortable. In other words, a procedure that would apply to anyone.

Let me state again, after being involved and employed at CC off and on for over 20 years, I have not lost any respect for PBC. Because I never gave him the type of respect that made him anything more than a friend, an older Christian who has gone before me. He’s never been my god, or super pastor. He’s a guy WITH some pretty good hang-ups which has made me like him better. He and I have disagreed massively on some minor things, and I left serving under him years ago because of his leadership style and yet we bring our family there on Sundays still after serving at another church for his messages.
I’m not applauding his sins, I’m just not as let down as some. I think he has always been a sincere believer and disciple of Christ, and I bet he has not always done it “right”. Sheesh, who could for 40 years of ministry? And now this is done, let’s do what the Bible says. Follow up, restore if possible, admonish correctly. Heal, restore trust among new or weaker believers. Let’s do it in love, not cover up like Adam or Dave.

I’m deeply upset at how this affects the families, the flock, etc. And my hope is in the Lord to do what Tucker said, use this as an awesome message and example of God’s grace. In addition to the grace, WE have some work to do in terms of governing our church bodies. We need to rightly divide the word and apply it the best we can.

I finally heard the letter/sermon. Let them continue on their course of action, keep all in prayer, support one another like this blog allows.

Bart, you and I are long time friends and have had many discussion about your journey’s in the CC network. I’m sorry brother if this has added to your wounds, let’s grab lunch together soon. So much to digest here still, while I’m not upset with any person (him or her) it’s still a lot to process.

J Keller says:

Xenia,

My apologies for the big blocks of texts. If I have more to say I will make an effort to break the paragraphs up a bit. I can see what you mean because I will skim a big paragraph to see if the subject matter applies to me or not. If it does, I read the whole thing. But, if the discussion is between two or three people and I’m not involved in it and I don’t understand it, like Orthodoxy for instance, I move on. But I do that even if it is a short paragraph too if I’m not interested in the subject.

Anyway, point taken.

J Keller says:

Tam @261 Yes let’s do that after the new year. How do we do this without making our contact info public? Funny you cried out to the Lord to be your pastor – I finally came to that too.

Bart@271 I’m borrowing your catch up format. Would like to meet you and your wife too sometime. So let’s also do coffee after the new year.

SadToday@267 Feeling for you in all of this. It is indeed a shaking experience to have to adjust one’s perception of someone you have trusted. Like Bob said in the word Tucker read it was a sacred trust. But the Lord won’t betray that ever and more than ever our sacred trust must belong to Him alone. That scripture comes to mind that anything that can be shaken will be shaken and this must be the season for that in the church universal. The good news is that which remains intact i.e. whatever God allows to remain He put there in us in the first place. He who began a good work in each of us, including Bob, is faithful to complete that work.

Michael @241 and all the other kind people here – thank you for so graciously giving us, the Boise people, a place to process and discuss and meet each other.

Have a merry Christmas everyone! May Jesus be very real and close as we celebrate His birth and His gift of redemption that He planned from the beginning!

Christa says:

JM, shame on you for spreading such lies, like Pastor Chuck having committed adultery. You better repent if you don’t want to be held accountable by God Almighty for your horrible lies. That is so evil of you, the man is dead and can’t defend himself.

S Miller says:

Michael
Can you clarify the worst kept secret in CC? Are you confirming it is about Chuck Smith or some other International minister – there have been comments on both in this thread.

As I told my good friend who was on staff for years – it is very freeing when you understand you don’t need to cover for them any longer. At our former church they used a book written by John Bevere titled “Undercover”. We also had to attend a seminar – approximately 8 hours on a Saturday mandated. We also were required to fill in notebooks and sign a pledge to the church and Pastor at the end of it if you were going to be a leader in the church.

If you haven’t heard of of it or attended one it is fascinating cult- style organizational school to get people in line by whip. It basically uses the “Moses Model’ as the basis for why you are to be submitted under your leader in lock-step. If you do not submit something bad will happen to you like MIriam. You are not to ask questions, rock the boat or ever ever question the leader. It was extreme and it was the answer to a getting your people in line to submit with a fear based theory of scriptures. When people asked questions about the seminar they were quickly labeled as not following the pastor, rebels or lone ranger Christians. This is for real in this day and age in the Treasure Valley.

So when we eventually left there and started attending CCBoise we were so deceived by the progressive looking style of Bob and the pastors wearing matching goatees that we had no idea we were under another Moses Model of leadership. As I told my friends who were feeling whipped from CCB – don’t feel bad it fooled us too! It was an even more subtle form of abuse as it was undetectable from the radio or tv ministry – much like methane gas.

So I adopted the mantra that there is no question you can’t ask! The test is not so much in getting an answer that is ‘right’ whether it be on finances or who is really in power or control. This will quickly reveal if you have challenges, road block or chairs thrown in your path like in a chase scene out of a movie- something is wrong. If you get the runaround on any question and feel a check in your spirit – as in that doesn’t seem right than that is your answer that things are being hidden.

It has taken years for them to get deeply held belief out of them. They don’t have to cover for Bob or leadership decisions any longer even if you were part of ‘making them happen.’ That is the biggest turning point a believer can make because you are no longer enabling the systems of lies or cover ups. You are accountable to God alone. If anyone asks you to go against that you have an issue no matter how sweet the information is layed out or what fear based lie you are being threatened with.

The churches who use the 501c3 Status have agreed as a non-profit who doesn’t pay taxes in America that they will freely disclose public records and anyone should have information publicly as to who is really on their board, their true budget – and other information.

I have learned how to access legal information & have taught others about how to find records online with the State Repository to see who actually owns your church or who is on board that controls it. Many nice Christians are under the delusion and I say that with sadness that the Elders are running the church or have a vote or say on the budget or major decisions. They are confusing that with a Congregational Style of Church where every member has a vote and you vote on the Elders or Deacon Board. That is very rare today!

Now your independent style church is just that – Independent from accountabiity. It is purposely set up that way so the congregation can no longer gain control or overtake or fire the Pastor. There is a legal filing of who is on the real Board of Directors. Any lawyer will confirm this. Until we grow up and ask more questions we may never know the truth the sets us free.

It is interesting how many churches have a Board with 3 member on it as in the Senior Pastor – his wife and maybe a child or son in law. So do you know who is or has been on the board of CCBoise. Ready set go! Let us know what you find. It will be interesting!

S Miller says:

Good memories J Keller or Exhibit A. This is case building to teach and show other Christians to watch for these signs. We know you did not have ‘Undercover Seminars” at Calvary but it was done much the same. When you can step back and review what happened to you so you weren’t allowed to ask questions or too beat down to do it you start to understand the psychological implications.

Cult-like thinking or teaching doesn’t just happen at the big name cults! It is more subtle than that these days.

Once again what happened to Chuck if covered up is pivotal! Thats what led to al lot this if true and if covered up by his leadership over the years. Who can see that? Its the canary in the coal mine!

Stephen says:

DrawingintheSand,

It sure seems to me that Cynthia was basically saying “Because none of us has no sin, let’s not expose Pastor Chucks sin (if there is one),” by her comment.

This would, if the case, imply a desire to hide truth that needs to be exposed and could well be critical to understanding some of the root issues/problems of the system.

DrawingInTheSand says:

Stephen, I wasn’t making a real comment. Just a tongue in cheek joke about getting stoned, which I really do not support, just throwing a little humor out there!

JM says:

Was away. Much to catch up on. Somehow landed on #287 first. Michael, you made me laugh so hard that I am seeking to invest in Depends. Wish others could divide this issue properly. Many of us are tired of being falsely accused of a personal harshness. All you are showing is a fidelity to what the Bible actually says about this sort of situation. You are correct.

BillB says:

There’s a word for guys like Bob who preach one thing and then secretly do the very opposite.

J Keller says:

DrawingintheSand@292 Your comment made me laugh – much needed after the drive-by comment @285. When I saw it earlier I wanted to ask her which of the 284 previous comments on the thread was she referring to – lol.

S Miller @297 When the Lord said “Come let us reason together” He must have been longing for a lively discussion! One of the many ways we are created in His image! It has just occurred to me that He likes a good debate!

It’s interesting how many Christians have a negative connotation of the term critical thinking having no idea it’s a concept in how to come to truth. It’s ok to say rightly divide the word of God because it’s a scriptural term, but to use the phrase critical thinking throws those those who think it wrong to speak up and disagree…

J Keller says:

SMiller –

I am in wholehearted agreement with your comment at 299. Not that we could ever win a debate with God but He would certainly lead a rousing discussion if we were in Yeshiva school with Him.

And yes, thank God for blogs like this one and others we have found so helpful over the years. It’s been an education that’s for sure, in discovering and honing our individual voices and in helping us see we aren’t alone in what we have gone through and what we have come to.

CTruth says:

As a former attender (no membership at a Calvary Chapels), and former staffer, the scripture that comes to mind regarding this situation is Proverbs 2:6-11. It speaks of Gods provision for the saints, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, guarding the just, discretion to preserve us, delivering us from the way of evil.

Many have commented on what the appearance of Bob Caldwell was, versus the reality. Reality was that he was the poster child for chaos, controlling, “what do people think of me”, loose canon human. The appearance that he created by having control of the narrative from the pulpit as well as the king of the staff was that he was God centered, prayed more that any other human in history, was as spiritual as they come, “I only care what God thinks of me” illusion. He challenged those who called out his hypocrisy at every turn, and became a spiritual mafia godfather, sending out spiritual hit-men that rebuked and purged those folks from the “mixed multitde”. They had yet to wake up the the absurdity of the whole system created at Calvary Chapel Boise. Tucker will come to understand over time and with much counsel, by the grace of God, how much chaos and distortion Bob Caldwell, an addict, has wrought in the lives of thousands. I am praying for him, his possee and his heart. I am praying for Cathy Caldwells’ heart, mind, and future. Her future is far better now than it was until now. Because the truth will set her free. Pray for Tucker to understand that any thoughts that the sheep can only handle what he thinks is “enough” info is deadly. Let the chemo, radiation and surgery begin at Calvary Chapel Boise, and all Moses Model Christian churches. Because Moses never made into the promised land on earth……

DrawingInTheSand says:

CTruth and SMiller… wow, agreed. I too used to work there. We all probably know each other.

SMiller you said “They are cast out of the camp! It can be done in such a way that you are begging to leave when you realize you are being frozen out.” Not only did I witness that happen to may staff members over an 18 year period, but it happened to me! There was no challenging Bob… and yet I didn’t see it that way, I felt that I “chose” to leave, but in truth, I too was becoming an older male and frozen out. I could name a bunch of names of others who actually said it was that way for them and now they run churches, colleges, orphanages, and other large ministries. I myself was no longer easily influenced, and after serving at another church for about 5 years, I came back to go through the School of Ministry there and wow! No older staff except for one or two yes men, it really messed with my head, it really caused me to distance myself although looking back I only now see why. And yet it was something my wife and I spoke about several times. No older bulls around to ballance Bob out, and then Tucker was appointed, I know Tucker pretty well and I was happy at the time of his appointment but at the same time… wow, what a major challenge that really requires experience, not just humility, training would be a mega bonus, but I’m not sure that exists? Seminary doesn’t prepare one for running a large organization i wouldn’t think (I could be wrong). Does college prepare graduates to run HP or Micron? Anyway, good observations…

J Keller says:

C Truth @302 very good point that Moses never made it into the promised land. Even though he shared a relationship with God like none other mortal he was still subject to God’s standard of holiness and that God is holiness. We learn from that part of Moses’ life what God expects in a relationship with Him.

Why would we even want or need the Moses model when Jesus became our model? These men who have patterned their ministries after Moses’s unique one are drawn to the appeal of one man hearing from God while the rest of the believers in their spheres wait with baited breath the word from God given to them. That would really appeal to their ego – the carnal man – and give them a sense of spiritual pride. Something we aren’t supposed to indulge in.

Why would the people who are their followers even need the Holy Spirit if these pastors were the only ones to hear from God?

Then factor in that the people themselves who give their allegiance to their own particular Moses are doing so because they want someone to tell them what to do and how to do it. I’m not just pointing the finger at others because I did the same thing thinking I was being obedient to God by submitting to my own pastor/king/authority – or I tried to even if I failed at it because it wasn’t working. So is it because we aren’t willing to do the “work” of believing, as the Bible instructs, waiting on God – trusting in faith – being led by the Holy Spirit ourselves every day? Why else would we hand over our spiritual position in Christ and our individual inheritance as a son or daughter in Him to someone else?

The authoritarian leaders become pumped up with an overblown sense of worth. If they have issues from a dysfunctional past they don’t think they need to go to counseling and do the “work” of inner healing like someone in their congregation with the same plight would need to do. What if they are a child of an alcoholic, let’s say, as Bob is?

J Keller says:

S Miller and DrawingInTheSand – when you mention being cast out of the camp – frozen out – phased out and replaced – by the next cool person of the hour like we have all been makes me think of a few things.

1. Usually the Replaced is no longer part of the young demographic. Whereas the Replace-ee is indeed very young and inexperienced and often unproven, but by all means, that doesn’t matter as long as the Replace-ee has that cool factor which is some kind of indifineable charisma which in turn makes the Replacer (pastor or leader who is getting rid of the old guard) cool by association. The Replacer also starts showing odd behavior like trying to look like the Replacee which makes him look a tad ridiculous because it’s obvious he is trying too hard.

2. So it’s interesting that Bob is now the Replaced. His own actions have cast him out of the CCB camp as a frozen one, reaping a bit of what he has sown.

J Keller says:

S Miller – and it wasn’t even winter when the wool hat incident took place so that made it more obvious.

Its interesting how these guys can surround themselves with youth and try to avoid their own reality of aging in the name of passing the baton to the next generation. We are seeing that it can certainly take its toll in unexpected ways. Thus the hat scenario among others.

Not that youth shouldn’t be given a place eventually – we all start somewhere; but you would think it would be a glaring red flag if your pastor is only surrounding himself with 35 year olds and younger. Arent there any ministry books that warn about the pitfalls of getting rid of all your wise people who have been with you through thick and thin in order to surround yourself with kids? It’s a fruitless move that is trending now and the leaders themselves are too blind to see it. And then they wonder why people question their authority.

If you can’t see what kind of pain you are causing others by your bad behavior maybe you shouldn’t be in a people related business.

DrawingInTheSand says:

SMiller, (and all of you) thank you for your supportive comments. The church is messy, under both leadership models. We can find major fault with both types in the new testiment. Paul had to straighten Peter out in what appears to have been a Moses model church, and in elder lead churches Paul had to remind some to quite sleeping with their Fathers wives, etc. There was misguided teachings that Paul considered blasphemous… all in Paul’s day! If we wanted to we could say all churches from all time have been flawed and we don’t have to stop at the New Testament, Lot’s daughters, Bathsheba, Moses was a murderer, Adam wasn’t fit to lead a marriage! What leadership would you call Adam’s? God’s? I mean there is nothing before Adam in the human record of leadership.

I am very used to troubleshooting and if you have a very complex system. You have to break things down at their source. You have to separate fixed (non variables) from variables, then break those variables down from those you have some influence on to those you do not. In this case, free will. Seemingly (without meaning to start an entirely new and huge debate over free will vs. yadayadayada) God has always worked through people with this variable in place called free will and under any “system” of governance it has the potential to blow up.

I’m suddenly reminded of auto racing (which i know nothing about). If we got rid of engines because they kept blowing… or we replaced chief mechanics with a board of mechanics it wouldn’t matter, the engine can still blow. Get rid of the engine? But wait we’re only looking at the engines that blow… every race, every race season has a winner, some team somehow overcame the blown engine problem and persevered.

I don’t just want to vent here, and I don’t want to armchair quarterback this one. A reasonable amount of venting (define reasonable? haha) is fine, criticism is welcome for the discovery of variables we might have influence over, but going over things like we should have seen it coming in every church under every situation, that’s like watching a tree grow every second of every day year after year until it gets high enough to touch a power line and it goes ZAP! And someone could say having watched it, “I knew that was going to happen”.

Blaming leadership styles… Knowing something we should have seen coming… that presents too many issues not addressed. Who is “we”, how do you know you see anything coming? Ever have a feeling that you believe is the HS, check with YOUR counselors and get a pass only to find out later you were right? What do you do? Fire your counselors? Get new ones? Ignore counselors forever? Whether we’re talking Bob, Lot, King David, Peter, Adam, or Moses for that matter you or me… what are we left with? Some here have quit attending churches in buildings for this very reason. You could end up in a race without an engine just so it won’t blow!

Speaking of vetting leaders, it doesn’t seem that Jesus went to seminary or had tutors, Paul did but came also from a background of murder, Peter was a fisherman and was put in charge by Jesus himself. I’m not suggesting we throw up our hands and not try, but I think what we have, is what we have always had.

It’s how sin got here in the first place. Seemingly Adam was not prepared and had no accountability or training.

My point, while I removed myself from this church as a staff person and volunteer. I still respected Bob as doing his personal best, not any better than most of us and a lot better than many. That man had (has) a lot of fruit to show in his life. I never did put him on a pedestal, or at least I quite after a short while in my 20’s. That’s why this didn’t really break my heart like it did with others… oh my heart is broken over the pain that this sin has brought on all affected. But I would say over-all, I still respect Bob on many levels. I’m interested on how this plays out, for what’s worth, my respect is hovering over how it is handled… but then, what’s my respect worth 😉 I want to do my best not to judge, only discern and move forward wisely. I want to thank you all for your investment on this topic, thanks for all your posts… minus those with personal attacks 😉 Peace!

DrawingInTheSand says:

J Keller, I get that, sorry if I didn’t support those points adequately. What I am saying is, engines blow. Leadership fails, even God’s pick can lose in a big way. I’m not saying we shouldn’t try to improve, but what I am saying is, is this is a very hard thing to see coming, or even if you do see it coming and warn them as in Jesus telling Peter how and when he was going to deny Christ, doesn’t necessarily prevent the failure. I think it’s good to have these discussions, and try to do better, I think we are obligated in leadership to do so. But we will not create a better leadership model than any God has created or allowed, the variable is us. And we all need grace, and there is a pretty high likelihood no matter how good the accountability program is that man will let us down. To expect less is to put Bob and other mega Church pastors back up on a pedestal where they don’t belong. Earlier there was some criticism about the CC pastor selection process… I don’t see any better selection going on in the bible, murderers, adulterers, uneducated, untrained people are often selected by God or Jesus and both have their wins and losses… can we really do better? Or can we just do our best?

SMiller says:

JKeller – You get the writing award for helping to bring insight to what I was trying to type late last night.

We all feel passionate about the state of the church and our leaders falling. We get attached to them so strongly that when they fall even if we are disappointed we still can feel connected and want to protect them at the same time.

You are an excellent writer who cut right through the discussion to bring truth! Thank you and may your sword of Zorro strike again!

pstrmike says:

@ 309 SMiller

“Whats with that?”

Surely you know. We live in a culture that worships youth, newness, and what we Christians perceive as a “fresh work of the Spirit”; which we associate with the young and the new. When a pastor has built his ministry, at least in part, upon his church being the cool place to be, there is the effort to maintain that personal and atmosphere. It is what I call living off the jet fumes of your glory days.

Much of American Christianity has been built upon presenting the truths of God within the context of the cool factor. It is tapping into the prevailing winds of culture. Once that is no longer present, people look elsewhere to find that medium of presentation.This became evident to me when a friend of mine described his new pastor as “like a young Greg Laurie.” Essentially, he is identifying style without much regard for substance.

We have not taught our people very well, they do not recognize that which is truly valuable and spiritual.

J Keller says:

If I am a pawn of God’s wouldn’t that mean I have control over nothing? Is pawn the new trending word now? I’ve been out of the IC for quite awhile now so what is trending is completely lost on me not that I care what the cool thing is.

Steve Burgess says:

More good than bad was done by this Pastor! Don’t ever forget that….

Stephen says:

Isn’t trying to focus on th good rather than the atrocity, was stated in the post above, a way of deflecting the responsibility and effects of sin and trying to minimalize it?

J Keller says:

Stephen @324 Yes I agree it is deflection. Let’s minimalize the years of a double life violating the “sacred trust” (Bob’s words not mine) his family and the people in his church gave to him; that way we can keep him on the pedestal just awhile longer. (Yes this is sarcasm for those who may jump to conclusions and misinterpret my meaning.)

Only the Lord will determine what was good or what was wood, hay and stubble in Bob’s life when he stands before him to give an account. Just like the rest of us. I’m sure his family would gladly trade all the “good” Bob did all those years for the loyalty and integrity they believed he had.

SMiller says:

Stephen — Good insights! That was in the air before this story was revealed. Our insider friends have said that whenever anyone tried to hold a standard of accountability at CCBoise this same argument came up. The elders & staff — everyone would deflect and go there — look at all the good he is doing or has done here or in India – all around the world. A scandal or problem does not negate that if it was truly good work but it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t address the present problem.

Is that the standard in the Bible? I know someone here can quote the passage about what standards elders or leaders are accountable to as in the husband of one wife… and on and on. It also states don’t go into leadership if you don’t want to be held to that standard and higher.

Once again my concern is not just this situation, but there seems to be a slide of ethics morals and Bible Standards across the board. Exhibit C: Israel Houton popular Worship Leader from Lakewood Church – the largest church in the country, just recently went through this. He was caught having an affair with a reality show star — Kim Kardashian look alike –read it for yourself. They had him take a 6 month ‘sabbatical” not sure what that meant and he’s now on the roster to perform at their NFL Gospel Conference coming up. He also still has his docket full of churches where he is going to perform – duets with the new wife too! There are many articles on this and he wasn’t even the Lead Pastor.

So what do we think? Are there new standards now? You can imagine the pain Lakewood went through in their dilemma of deciding whether to put him on probation, or let him go. When someone draws that kind of numbers to your church you hesitate to deal harshly with them or your numbers may go down. Than it shows in the offering buckets and than in the campus and buildings.

Case in point: I visited ORU after they had experienced many a defining scandal in 2003. Their buildings looked shabby and in a state of decline. The carpets needed replaced, the buildings needed maintenance and the campus just looked tired. Whether you like them or not they were the lightening rod of how to do big ministry in the day. Everyone knows this is where it can lead and that is the real fear.

Alot is at stake in big time ministry as in the dollars it takes to keep your ship afloat. This is why people tend to want to look at all that was built and done in the past glory days.

Don’t you think they did the same at PTL and ORU? How about Robert Schuller and his kingdom? Now it is owned by the Catholic Church. Titantic after Titanic keeps floating to the surface in order to get our attention. Are we listening yet?

S Miller says:

Golden Globe of responses right here!

We get exasperated when people don’t seem to see ‘WE” are the Body of Christ – all of us together. If one parts hurts or does something stupid we are all affected. The world will lump us all together as ‘those Christians.’ More importantly the Lord deals out judgement or consequences in love to get the whole body’s attention.

Have you ever hurt one body part and not have it affect all of you – even a small injury can really cry out in pain!

Since I woke up I’ve been saying for years – they’re going to get us all on a train to Auschwitz. Meaning: all this crossing of lines and trying to do anything to be a part of the world and blend in by coming like them will affect all of us. It could lead to taxation on churches which would surely bring the system down in a hurry. The wealth stream would be cut in half if that happened, or worse.

We don’t know where all this is leading but it feels like we’re on a train to somewhere and its not a good location as in Siberia. Someone has to sound the alarm. The pulpits are doing it so it has to come from somewhere the writers on blogs. You’ll often find more truth here and fruitful discussion here than a 10 points monologue passing as a sermon with less Scripture in it than a Dead Sea Scroll fragment.

JKeller I love how you rebel against the word picture of being a pawn in the larger scale of things. Something about that strikes me wrong. If thats the case than give up now. We may not be able to affect huge masses but than again we might. Who knows? I just know we have to try to point out some things we are seeing that this situation has once again brought to light.

CTruth says:

So it has been close to 4 weeks since we first learned of the Bob Caldwell affair. Many here have brought out points and counterpoints regarding what tragedy and destruction this has caused. Many have also brought out points that we need to watch our own walk and witness for Jesus, lest we find ourselves in similar situations. My purpose for posting tonight is to reiterate Gods’ call to each christian. Be wise, be discerning, do not be easily misled.

Folks are still trying to remind themselves and each other of all the good that Bob did. Why? God is God. His purpose is accomplished by His hand through us. Bob loved the Lord. I am not sure what he knows about God right now. His adultery was just discovered, however it did not just happen. It was because he would not allow any another man to speak into his life that he went off course many years ago. Don’t forget that even when confronted by Tucker and the Elders (do you know who they are?), Bob thought he could persuade them into keeping it a secret. He served as the Pastor for nearly 1/3 of his tenure with this secret fiasco. And as others have indicated, it is just one symptom of his addiction issues. His manipulation is all over the funds and ministries there. He has been a liar extraordinaire for most of his pastoral career. Sorry to be a Debbie downer, but any fruit that came from what he did was by the grace of God to those that God intended the blessing for.

Bob betrayed his wife and his vow to her. His wife deserves the grace of each of us. Perhaps the church will pay for her to be counseled by a professional group that can show her how to be wise, discerning, and not easily misled, giving her skills to live the rest of her life in peace.

SMiller says:

Wells said CTruth! You know a lot of what you have observed through the years, not just this latest phase but way back. You have truly seen lots of patterns and history that goes way back. Almost every group that has ever gotten off has alway seemed to start out with a mission and a lot of good intentions. That is not the hard part, the real test comes when the numbers grow and real success starts to come. How are problems and issues handled on a daily basis.

How much control do your Elders or on staff Pastors have to speak into your leaders life when they get off track. It happens over and over again with a One Man at the top scenario that we have created or allowed them to create. They are irreplaceable in our eyes as we love to watch them preach. We are attached to their style, voice mode of operations. Its so much easier to sit back in your chair and just listen and not question like a ride at Disneyland.

Good job in making us think and look at the history. It was there all the time if anyone had taken time to interview those around him. Wouldn’t the most loving thing to do be to keep your Pastor accountable by real men and women in authority because when you grow such large numbers you have so much at stake? People’s spiritual lives.

Wouldn’t it have been a loving thing to do for his own wife and family? You are having a heart for the one hurt the most in this ordeal of conscience. What does she do now? Do you hear what happened to Bob Coy’s wife and family? Where are they now? What became of them? It’s like they never existed and are supposed to ride off into the sunset?

SMiller says:

Sorry for the double post — I keep repeating the same info in one form or another!

Disillusioned says:

“…pastors who are using people at their disposal as pawns, all in the name of ministry for the Lord. So true. Submit to authority with no questions asked – check your mind and discernment at the door. We know what it is to be a pawn because we have been there done that. Once you know what it is to be free from pawn-life though you don’t ever want to sign up for it again. You remember you are still free to choose life over death and what it means to say yes to God in a healthy way never to be controlled by men and religiosity again.”

This is brilliant. So true.
Signed,
Former Pawn (and to my shame, I’d add “Lackey”)

Disillusioned says:

“Somehow they have convinced the Christian world that submitting to your pastor is simultaneously submitting to God. ”

Bingo.

Such blasphemy!!

“Toadie ” is another way I see my former self. They used me to do their dirty work, like enforcing the pastor’s wife’s dress code (not kidding), or confronting any problems with people not only in the ministry I was in, but others as well. “God is using you,” I was told. “You’re not afraid to tell the truth,” they said.

Of course, that didn’t work out so well for them when they sinned. And to my utter shock, turned out the scriptures didn’t apply to “leadership.”

SMiller says:

Disillusioned – Isn’t it great and painful at the same time to look at our history and see what we gained and lost?

My favorite movie after getting out has been “Inside the Third Reich” based on the story of HItler’s favorite – Architect Albert Spear. I wish I could hand out DVD’s of this movie. He was in the heart of the ‘inner circle’ of Hitler and he was one of the only ones to survive and write a book on his experience. His detailed account tells what it was like to work to know the leader and experience the pride and thrill of being of being part of the elite.

The building stage was exciting and personally fulfilling to him, as it is to all of us. He was Hitler’s favorite for a while – then stage 2 began. He gives a detailed account of how he survived going from worshipper to conspirator. When Germany was losing the war and HItler was in the bunker giving orders for a scorched earth and the destruction of his own country it was Spear who found a way to stop his insane orders. I’m so glad the Lord helped me to find this story after I got out. I’m not sure I would have understood it before than.

Yes JKeller says it right that almost every exile from a controlling group situation relates to these stories of past generals who got in for the right reasons and also get out for the right reasons.

Its no fun to be used as a pawn, to be scanned for your gifts and talents to see what you can do for the organization. Eventually you see how you let yourself be used just like Spear. Once you see that you’ll never be used in that way again.

We all had a need, desire or ambition that put us there — fortunately the Lord got us out! The blogs help us have empathy for others and try to bring understanding of what led us there. There’s healing on the way out and writing our stories helps us and others who drop by. I find comfort in reading in the Word ‘and such as is common to man.’ Isn’t that true!

Scooter Jones says:

Someone mentioned the movie about Albert Speer, Hitler’s confidant and chief architect.

The movie is available for free in 2 parts on YouTube. I watched it. Very interesting.

Just search “Inside the third Reich” on YouTube.

Coach says:

The woman was on staff for many years at Calvary. She left about 6 months ago.
Given that she was also in a leadership role, it’s even more disheartening.

Scooter Jones says:

Wow! What a mess. The details of these things usually rise to the surface before it’s all said and done.

JM says:

Does anyone see any similarities between this and the long term decadence of Bob Coy?

em ... again says:

reading this thread enforces my view that where sinful – as defined by God, Himself – interactions of a sexual nature take place within the Church there are many reasons (can’t use shades of grey anymore)…
i have observed women go after a pastor and i have seen attractive, but innocent women accused of doing so, when it was just the hormones of the pastor that were going nutty (the rationale being, “he’s a good and godly man, so she must be doing something to cause him to sin”)… maybe, instead of analyzing the cause, for the Church it should be a black and white issue: don’t do that! period!
there will always be that lovely yin and yang between the sexes, but we need to call a spade a spade and deal with it, whether it’s our own inclination (which one should be able to deal with without a public intervention, i.e., if you can’t handle yourself, then move on down the road) or a more destructive and egregious public mess-up – but…
predatory behavior of any stripe should be kicked out church IMO (maybe not kicked out of the Church – only God knows)

just sayin

S Miller says:

All I can add to this thread is wow. It is actually confirming and healing to many who had doubts questions and red flags in their heart for years and no one would listen.

This information explains so much on the bad behavior going on there in leadership overall. This is just one situation where it was going on. Maybe it was the most important thing going on there but maybe this scandal/affair/relationship was only one that has come to the surface at that this time.

Go back and look at Bob Coy and many others as I have said from the beginning of my comments on this thread. It it often the tip of the iceberg that melts and causes a splash and than the rest of it is revealed. Could it be a pattern from way back?

My concern from the time I was at this church and before was how quickly they took people involved in the Jesus Movement and went against the warning not to put new Christians in leadership. They threw them into the deep end of the pool and promoted them as Pastors from the get go. What is the warning — oh yea don’t do that or they will get in pride and fall.

I went crazy when my friend who was a brand new Christian was put in an important position almost immediately there with Bob. I knew it was wrong and when I sounded warning bells I was dismissed and cut off for a great number of years. Believe me the tears were flowing as I watched from afar.

Now this all makes sense. As heartbreaking as this situation is I actually feel a comfort from knowing what was happening. You do not have to name – names Michael. No one is asking to that on this or any other blog I’ve ever read – but there is a great deal of information you can clear up that people have been wondering about for years. This is one of the best teaching tools the Church at Large has now. It has a great amount of lessons here that can be used to help other groups not allow to happen at their church. The question is why wasn’t it dealt with at first hint?

The only way we get and grow in discernment as Christians and in unity is to see the signs and than walk through the process of trying to reason together and learn how to deal with them. Its not if people are going to fall into a ditch, or sin, they do– but how and when will we deal with it?

This is not just a member of the church it is the Leader – the Lead Pastor – the one who built this church. It has to be dealt with to the core or you will plant the seeds for the next one.

People need and want to talk about it. Understanding brings wisdom – above all get understanding about why this went on.

Scooter Jones says:

So, in a pastor-centric, top down leadership model, what can the average attendee do who “discerns” something is wrong with regard to a pastor in sin like Bob Caldwell was. For at least 14 years according to a witness here.

As long as people fill the pews and the donation boxes, pastors who are involved in sin like this, feel emboldened.

That is until someone finally comes forward and threatens to blow the top off.

DrawingInTheSand says:

@JM 365

I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s the lack of transparency that is bothering me. I agree, we are not here to demand names or anything like that. But leadership and those involved, Bob and “her” should come forward in order to be restored. Someone said she was not an Elder, this is splitting hairs IMO. She was in leadership for years, mentoring, in a position of influence in the body of Christ. She should be held to the same level of accountability as any leader. I’m not asking for this blog to name names, I just really like the way you put it JM.

“People who are doing the right thing like to come out into the light so that their deeds may be manifest. Scrutiny doesn’t bother them.”

I’m pointing that statement not only at her but at current leadership, at Tucker. Enough already, out with all the truth. Make a plan for going forward and on with the healing. I said this before, you can’t heal a wound until you clean it all out.

Let me put it another way. It is not for us to demand, I agree with those who say that would be for our own curiosity. But if this isn’t done as prescribed it leaves behind a stench, or a sting that for many won’t go away. It is living with sin, it is more sin. But by the very grace we have all received I know we are not to ask for heads on plates. This is more a matter of restoring trust in a church body and creating a healthy model of leadership and accountability going forward.

If future leaders and their mistresses know their names will come out, that could be a pretty good deterrent…

J Keller says:

Furthermore – when I read the latest discussion in this thread to my better half he reminded me of this point: The New Testament reminds us to take heed lest we fall when it comes to judging sin. If all parties are not exposed then it makes it easier for a person not in ministry to think he or she will get away with it simply because he-she is not an elder or whatnot? Only the pastor person will be publically examined? What is this a new precedent? Paul said they both need to be brought forward.

And furthermore what if the person WAS in ministry at the time of the affair-betrayal-of-the-sacred-trust as Coach mentioned? Just because you are no longer there means there no accountability? Exposure of the woman doesn’t have to happen here on this blog which is not even in the same state where it all happened. But I agree with Coach that Tucker and his elders need to address this again here in Boise in their church. They owe the people that much.

em ... again says:

“The goal of the church is ALWAYS repentance and restoration” yes, and i do amen that the two are stated in the correct order…

what i am not sure that i can agree with is that the erring party or parties have the right to privacy… most especially IF they have been in leadership or teaching positions… i love the impulse to chivalry – keeping the woman from public exposure – but that said, i’m not sure that this is always her right… most especially where there has been what must be described as ongoing treacherous conduct against innocent spouses and families… sometimes IMHO one size/answer does not fit all – or so it seems to me

David said to God, “against Thee only have I sinned.” well, yes, but his repentance was rather public and, for certain, he was going to have to wait until Eternity to ask Uriah’s forgiveness… some, maybe most, sins are not tidy or easily cleaned up – except that the confession made to God which is always job one

J Keller says:

Drawing in the Sand – I apologize that I came across in my tone as better than thou.
I was having a bit of an overreaction to the one time Michael addressed me personally on his blog in which his tone was condescending because I didn’t quote the Bible correctly.

I don’t feel that people in the IC are unenlightened idiots. To the contrary I realize that each person is on their own personal path with Jesus and each person hears his voice and hopefully follows it. That could be in a church or in a home study with those He teams you up with. Those of us outside the four walls feel the judgment though from those who choose to stay inside the IC and our opinions are often discounted because of that.

em ... again says:

“…..What I keep hearing on this thread is that people want to hold this womans feet to the fire…even though by all accounts she has repented …..”

let me then be clear that my question was directed as to whether or not, in a case such as i have read described here, there should not be a public confession – rather than the right to just privately sneak away to start over as if nothing had happened…
i was not advocating “holding feet to the fire” as, most certainly confession and repentance should be followed by restoration … compassion for the forgiven is the responsibility of one’s fellow Believers and should be “as if nothing had happened” from that point on … IMHO
otherwise, one’s fellow Believers are just as guilty … IMHO … again 🙂

and by that standard, i fear that there are more guilty Believers out there than we know – God help me to see more clearly

There is Hope in Him says:

Hello Everyone,

I have not visited this blog for quite a while, I do appreciate the dialog and earnest direction of seeking God and building up one another.
I want to say a few things as I promised a dear friend that I would help stop any gossiping about this situation with Bob Caldwell and the other woman. I have known both for many years and I am a close friend to the other woman. Coach #351 not everything you listed is accurate because of this “my understanding from a friend” comment, this is how gossiping and pain starts. I am letting you all know that this gal is a dear sister, she has repented, she clearly understands the pain that was caused. Who do you think finally went to the leadership for counsel and help to keep a manipulating Bob from controlling her life, it was her. With that said I want you all to know the truth so gossiping and exposing her can end. She is reaching out to those she needs to for forgiveness and restoration. She is completely humble and broken and is a pure example of someone who has fallen at the feet of Jesus. This is all I have to say. I hope you all will keep her in prayer for continued healing, she has exposed her heart and needs our prayers and to stop any gossiping. God is already using her; her example is so pure and honest and we need to extend grace and love towards her.
Bob slithers away like a snake and he is a scumbag.

S Miller says:

How would we know the process and pain and steps the woman involved had gone through unless it were for this blog and interested participants and writers coming forward and speaking what they hope will bring truth?

How will the congregation who were there long term ever know or get understanding of what happened in this scenario that was by two public people in this ministry who were in leadership positions?

When you bond people in the way we do now to our celebrity – one man Pastoral System with all their ‘personal stories’ about their wive and family through the years – 52 weeks a year – why wouldn’t they have a vested interest in knowing what the end of the story was as Paul Harvey says? Do they suddenly just disengage their hearts and spirits that are deeply entrenched in this Lead Pastors lives?

Don’t you think thats a bit too much of any human being who is not a robot?

RSFB says:

Wow, as a long time attendee of CCB and someone who Pastor Bob has had a profound impact upon.. I just don’t know what to say!? I feel empty inside and like I’ve been duped. Truly want to believe that it wasn’t all B.S but it may have been sadly. Also I think I had an odd feeling that there was something funny going on with one of the women ( similar looking to Kathy but younger) who was involved in the India ministry. Never could quite put a finger on it but whenever I saw her I felt that way. Someone tell me.. we’re all sinners and saved by grace but how in the world was Bob able to live a double life for over a decade???

RSFB says:

This is a big blot on organized religion, so sad. Hail to the true King… Jesus!

RSFB says:

Also Bob’s sermons definitely lacked saltiness the last handful of years, I thought this was due to India being his true calling and burnout on his part not this. Someone tell me Pastor Bob was in it for the right reasons despite his fall???

TN says:

RFSB, lack of accountability. He was in a place where he either couldn’t or wouldn’t confess his temptations when they arose. He was too big to be corrected, too exalted to be humble. God help him.

I am as hurt as you. I stopped going to CCB. I just want to move on from the whole mess.

J Keller says:

RSFB –
@395 The saved and healed part of most likely was in it for the good reasons you are hoping for. The untransformed or let’s say yet-to-be transformed part of Bob must have got in the way of that. A friend who once worked with him put it this way – he was healed to the extent he allowed God to heal him from his growing up years.

I’m wondering if we would be seeing so many pastors falling like flies if they had submitted themselves to thorough counseling as unresolved problems from their pasts presented themselves any given time in their ministries. We’ve assumed these leaders were healed and set free because of what they told us in stories and teachings on Sundays and Wednesdays.

I can feel your pain in realizing Bob could have been living a double life over the years. The hardest part about having a hero is when you realize they are seriously flawed just like the rest of us. The one constant we have is Jesus – He is the perfect one. He won’t fall into sin and He deserves to be the only hero of our lives. We have all had other heros and we are each learning what it is to let that idea go. As we keep looking at Jesus and to Him, our faith will remain intact and He will lead us to safety.

em ... again says:

#393 – the simple answer, the most basic one, to that question is that this man, like us all, carries an old sin nature throughout this life … beyond that i don’t know ‘why’ he indulged so egregiously – was he/is he a Believer? all we can do is pray for him – he certainly needs to repent… to loosely quote a famous old sermon: “it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God” – thank God for His mercies and hope … and grace

CTruth says:

To those asking recently on this blog thread about what led Bob to commit adultery, please understand that having sex outside of marriage was not a singular marker in his self destruction. It is part of a pattern from his self consumed, “must be in charge” addictive personality that he did not allow God to heal. He was always deceptive, manipulative and freaked out about how he was perceived, all the while trying to create the illusion of just the opposite. He was a victim of his own making. And victimized hundreds over the years. The people around him that tried to hold him accountable were each eliminated by his method of sowing disqualifying “evidence” against them. He did not have peers. He made each person that got close think they were, but was only grooming for his purposes. He was somewhat ignorant in this regard to his own level of sin.

I cannot overstate how this was always there. If you did not get into the inner workings, you believed the image he projected. I watched over the years as I believed in the image until I could no longer deny the mountains of evidence that I had dismissed. By loving friends I was gently confronted. Each of us were groomed to be a part of supporting that image. If we did not tow the line, we were chastised, maligned and made to think we were the problem.

Classic abuser behavior. The female party in what is being called the affair was also groomed to maintain Bobs image. As she gets counseling and becomes healed by Gods grace and provision, she will see all the ways that he groomed her, then trapped her, until she was caught. Then he blamed her.

As a side note, the poster that gave the account from the female participant, thanks for the accurate details. It is necessary to know the truth. Please do a study of how the simple use of the word gossip has been misused by both innocent and abusers to shut down all conversation. Gossip is defined by the intent of the heart. It is not, however genuine concern and nessicity of bringing truth and fact finding. Gossip is such a classic way of twisting Gods word, like Satan did. We have learned not to be shamed out of seeking truth, and the whole story. Otherwise, we could say God is a gossip for all the sins He had the Bible authors document. As Michael often says, make your own application.

RSFB says:

We’re there financial improprieties as well???

J Keller says:

RSFB –

Your questions are valid and why I think that CCB could be holding some kind of support meeting(s) for longtime attendees like you, as ludicrous as it sounds. It would give the leadership a forum to be honest – tell everything – then deal with it together with the people not off in some conference room apart from the people. But no, let’s keep the secrets secret and try to continue as if nothing happened. Then later down the road run the risk of falling into the similar pits because there is no transparency.

What a perfect opportunity to clean house and begin with a clean slate. Why would they want to bring all Bob’s baggage with them?

I know it will be said that it’s more complicated than that, but you have to start somewhere. It could be a complete cluster but it’s a “train wreck” already.

J Keller says:

“I think God is preparing His church for what is to come so that we may stand strong and completely “in Him” (not on a denomination, or, “of Paul or Apollos”, etc., etc.). I found this verse in the Amplified rather edifying: “Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth in all things–speaking truly, dealing truly living truly. Enfolded in love, LET US GROW UP IN EVERY WAY AND IN ALL THINGS INTO HIM, Who is the Head, [even] Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One.”, Ephesians 4:15.

Your faith and your hope have been temporarily stifled, but be of good cheer. This is not the end–it is likely a beginning.”

Beautifully said JM! As we hold fast to our faith in Jesus we become testimonies of this very thing. He makes all things new.

CTruth says:

RSFB @ #403
My comment about mountains of evidence was in reference to behavior patterns. I came to see the patterns after a friend gave me a great book, Healing for Adult children of Alcoholics, for an extended family issue. As I studied the book and applied its findings and explanations to my extended family situation, the concepts gained traction in my thinking process. Then one day, the Lord literally moved my gaze from that situation to Bob Caldwell. The veil of his deception was, for me, lifted. Because I had learned the patterns and issues in this other situation, I quickly was able to understand his issues, that I had been giving the benefit of the doubt to him. However, I was unable to see that led all the way to betraying his vows to his wife. I simply thought he would never cross that line. Boy was I wrong.

dusty says:

praying for those who were hurt by this and have come here to find peace….may you find it here.

Hopeful says:

I have refrained from anymore comments mainly because I have been angry.
Angry that in the 23 years I have attended CCB, it was all a facade
I could share my story, the personal experiences I had with Bob. I left the church for about 10 years over some very hurtful comments he made to me during some counseling sessions. The underlying theme was submit, submit, submit.
I’m ready to move on. I could spin my wheels all day rehashing the anger and pain, questioning things and wondering why.
We recently met with Tucker.
I was impressed and left the meeting with a new hope.
He was very transparent and truly humble.
I won’t go in to everything that was shared.
He assured us that Calvary Chapel Boise is now only a name on the side of the building.
They are doing away with the Moses Model.
The by laws are all being re written and anybody can see them, make suggestions and requested a meeting with the Elder’s regarding them.
The finances will no longer be a secret. Anyone can now see those.
There will be small church assembly the end of February where he will be addressing issues and concerns.
He said he wanted to get through the holidays and let the dust settle.
I feel he is taking the church in the right direction.

Hopeful says:

*ALL church meeting where anyone is welcome, not small *

JM says:

Wow, Hopeful! If all that you were told will end up being true, it will be a historical event. I also encourage that there will be an actual, physical effort to seek out those who are so discouraged that they didn’t want to come back thinking it would be more of the same. I would say especially seek those that were treated badly by Bob the Low Life, as you were. Here he was putting himself over you and he wasn’t worthy to untie your sandals. Tucker has a tall order ahead of him. We should all pray that he will be a catalyst for healing.

J Keller says:

Hopeful @416 and @421

Wow. This is indeed epic if the leadership goes through with this. Good good work in finding out what’s what. Maybe Bob didn’t know quite what he was getting when he (thought he) chose Tucker. His youth and passion to remain true to God may serve him well in this time.

Your story is confirming what Coach said about L being controlled. So that gives us insight and is consistent with behaviors others have endured during Bobs tenure.

Cathy being in seclusion is something we all have sympathy for. Our prayers are with her and for her and her family. I hope the church does right by her.

The meeting planned at the end of February is the start of something good. Will pray that as they open their doors to honesty and truth (a completely unheard of thing in CC history from what the bloggers here are saying) that it will be a new beginning for all of you. May God have His way and may any tendency to control the situation subside.

I was telling my friend that this whole debacle descended on the CCB people, and those of us near, like the winter storms dumped snow and ice on the Treasure Valley. It’s like a double portion of oppression heavy and disabling. May the Lord come in and raise up His standard like He has been known to do down through the ages, using what the enemy meant for harm somehow for good. He is the only one who can do that. He alone is exalted.