Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale Confirms Phoenix Preacher Report
In the Wednesday night service at Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale, Pastor Chet confirmed the specific allegations about Bob Coy we reported on this blog.
Listen beginning at the 50 minute mark here.
” Our pastor…he committed adultery with more than one woman.”
“Our pastor…he committed sexual immorality…habitually…through pornography”.
The pastor speaking reported that Coy was confronted by “Nathans”, and willingly resigned after confession of his sin.
Evidently, my sources were pretty good after all…and the ‘vicious rumormongering” was fact.
I commend CC Ft. Lauderdale for telling the truth and letting the healing begin.
All should listen to the entire teaching and confront our own lack of the Fear of God. Chet has willingly chosen to face this issue head on and use it to teach the body. Instead of gloating “I was right” we should be confronting our own sin and confessing ” I’ve been wrong” to the God who sees everything we do in secret
It isn’t gloating.
It’s substantiating the evidence to all those who showed up in denial with hate-filled remarks while attacking & saying to be more Christian.
Now, they can show up like you & say it’s gloating.
Anything to draw attention away from Mr Coy’s selfish actions and those he hurt.
Mark, I don’t see anyone gloating here. People were telling the truth but were beingcalled gossips or worse by other Christians.
Let the healing begin.
This time I’m going to Mark Driscoll you. Thanks for the audio link.
Go for it. 🙂
Michael has paid a big price on a many an occasion to let folks know about these situations, and to give hurting people a voice.
For those of us that have been here a long time, we all knew he had multiple ways to substantiate his information before he would ever post it.
The vitriolic reaction has been the norm as well, followed by reluctant acceptance as the grief process plays out.
In fact, many who came here first to lament, have since become beloved regulars with much to offer the next batch of those who have similarly been wounded.
We hug people with our scars.
I commend Michael for adding the postscript to his original post
To “Please note.”
I’ve been here since the beginning. I don’t need your lecture
Thank you, my friend.
Well said, Please Note.
My pastor often tells us that “hidden sin is open scandal in heaven.” While that is true, this is where we treat grace cheaply. I am not apart from this; it’s something I am guilty of.
I applaud CCFL for doing this clearly and openly; the tone is right and without a prideful stance about it. This is a wide-scope failure within the church Pastor Chet and hopefully, the board at CCFL understands that.
This week, the scripture that has stayed with me is from Isaiah 53, speaking of the Man of Sorrows. No kidding. The CCFL situation and all other church failures can only grieve the Lord.
God help us to get this right for a change.
But I continue to encourage all of you to listen to the entire message. It is powerful
I broke the story.
That’s why spoke directly to the specific allegations that I reported and have been called into question for doing so.
Well I think there will be more details coming out and these pastors are trying to head them off at the pass, possibly the women involved are about to come out with their stories, it makes for salacious reading or viewing. Sadly a symptom of our fallen nature, to want to wallow in the filthy mire which is also perhaps a sign of wanting to live vicariously through these salacious stories. And like any Hollywood tabloid the public can’t get enough and it seems it’s the same with most Christians starting with most on this blog, who seem to love and relish each juicy detail as it comes hot off the press.
“For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.” Eph 5:12
“Filthy lusts must be rooted out. These sins must be dreaded and detested. Here are not only cautions against gross acts of sin, but against what some may make light of. But these things are so far from being profitable. that they pollute and poison the hearers.”
Waiting for your apology…
“Sadly a symptom of our fallen nature, to want to wallow in the filthy mire which is also perhaps a sign of wanting to live vicariously through these salacious stories.”
Is that why you are here? Get your mind out of the gutter buddy.
Hugh…you’re here reading about it all, too.
I know, you’re doing it for Jesus.
By the way, for a guy who says MLD shouldn’t read Luther, or Michael shouldn’t read Calvin, and all we need is the Bible, that’s yet another Commentary you’re quoting.
Your ‘rules’ & judgements seem to fluctuate for…..you
Mark, I already been there and done that. I’ve got nothing to hide…how about you and about another large stack of CC pastors who I have a file on?
Yes that’s why most are here indicative of the fallen nature, take stock of what you read and watch, what you listen to, and yet you say “I thank God that I am not like that Bob Coy, I fast twice a week and tithe my mint and cummin..” The Pharisees are alive and well today!
Bob Grenier Calvary Chapel pastor, when are you going to come clean? I know you read every word of both blogs as you’ve self-reported in your services, I think you said you print everything out as well.
Print this and read it to yourself over and over.
Confess and quit lying. Liars supposedly go to hell or do you not believe the b.s. you’re preaching?
I never said don’t read Luther or Calvin, what I’ve said if you would have read carefully is, “throw out their garbage.” For instance I like this that Luther said “the just shall live by faith,” oh yeah the reason it’s a great statement, it’s because it’s backed by the Bible, just like Matthew Henry’s commentary on Eph 5:2, but when it’s not, like; there’s no free will involved in salvation and Jesus died only for the elect, and God has randomly condemned some to go to heaven and some to go to hell, and we’re already in the millennium and the devil is chained up right now…THEN THROW THIS GARBAGE OUT! that’s what I said! Maybe now you get it!
Bob Grenier, this is never going to go away as long as I am alive and you are alive.
Your best move is to come clean and confess and face the music. Then you might get some peace.
Right now, if the bible is true, you are probably going to hell. You are certainly in torment because of your own actions and continuing lying.
I promise you I will never stop proclaiming the truth about you and you will never shut me up, you’d have to kill me. You can sue all you want, that just gives me a bigger platform and hurts you worse than it does me.
You know what you did, we were both there. You know what you did to all those people over the years at your Calvary Chapel franchise. You know what you did to Paul.
You’re a liar and a coward. You dodged accountability when you were a drug dealer and drug smuggler and you think you can get away with anything. Well, not this time. It’ll never go away.
Confess, come clean. It must be eating you alive, the guilt…that is if you have a conscience left.
You’re not interested in dialog, just strife and insults.
You’re under moderation and I’m not going to put a lot of effort into approving you.
“All should listen to the entire teaching and confront our own lack of the Fear of God. Chet has willingly chosen to face this issue head on and use it to teach the body. Instead of gloating “I was right” we should be confronting our own sin and confessing ” I’ve been wrong” to the God who sees everything we do in secret”
Amen to that! Let us consider ourslesves lest we be ensraed by Sin and not be arrogant enough to think that we could never fall or walk away form God. God resists the Proud but gives Grace to the Humble. If Bob has truly repented then we should embrace him as our brother. if he hasn’t then we should truly pray for him and not relish in his rebellion. As far as his restoration of marriage, that is not between him and his wife.
I sense 900 comments on the way…
Let it run Michael, there is nothing to defend. Let the bleating begin.
I’ll commit to a hundo or so. 🙂
You are better off not paying attention to the 16th Century reformers and just stick to the precious word of our Lord and his apostles. I read enough of those guys to not want to be like them.
“Yes that’s why most are here indicative of the fallen nature, take stock of what you read and watch, what you listen to, and yet you say “I thank God that I am not like that Bob Coy, I fast twice a week and tithe my mint and cummin..” The Pharisees are alive and well today!”
“For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.” Eph 5:12
Yup it seems like even Christians love their “Headline Porn”
I will say the same to you – if that is the reason your are here – get your mind out of the gutter.
This pastor seems like another mega-church pastor in the making. Perfect looks and every word dramatized with great emotion. I almost feel he’s using Bob’s story to draw people into his message.
Hey Rebo, how come you don’t get threatened with being censured by Michael? You bring up Bob Grenier into the topic here which has nothing to do with BC’s adultery, I guess you could stretch it and make it relate, but I still don’t know what BG did to you, I wish you would just right the book Daddy Dearest, so it can be clear!
Hugh, Sol-Rod, et al…
How come the mere mention of the fall of Coy makes you think we who discuss it think it can’t happen to us, or that we feel above reproach?
How come mere discussion of the topic comes across to you as gloating?
How come you feel you are the only ones that say, ‘there, but for the grace of God, go I?”
Many of the monikers you are attacking on here are actually people, and quite a few are pastors.
Please stop being Keyboard Commandos and saying things you would never say to someone at YOUR church.
Stop talking AT people and start talking TOO people.
And treat us like people.
Hugh, take your meds. I am under moderation now and a lot of my comments get zapped.
Let’s not lose sight here that CCFL told the truth – warts and all. Perhaps this will wake more folks up to the reality that sin costs.
Looking in the mirror here as well.
Masterful work in getting around moderation.
Welcome to the spam filter.
I would say these very things to your Face or Michael’s or anyones. Don’t use that Pastor title to hold over my head, we are all eqaul with no one better than the other.
“Oh yeah they’re writing and commenting on blogs!”
Uhmmm…your logic kind of proves my point doesn’t it? And by the way, which one is more powerful? The beautiful mega-church pastor… or the ugly truth teller with his blog?
Lutheran pastors, carriers of the truth, are the ugly pastors.
I was going to say that based on the article photo, Coy is not a good looking guy, but then I thought “Hey, he gets way more chicks in the sack than I do.”
That’s good MLD! Our comments don’t make sense now that Hugh’s was zapped but I guess you got it. Being a Lutheran now, that made me laugh.
And let’s be honest we all come off alittle more forceful on line then we would do in person. I think that’s true of most people (self included)
SolRod….the point wasn’t that anyone was better than anyone else.
It was about respect.
If you wouldn’t say it at your church, or to your Pastor, then you shouldn’t say it here.
You talk about how blind you were to things before, and how clearly you see everything now, & what you wish you knew then. Who’s to say you won’t feel the same way in 5 years about how you view things now?
That’s the point, we are all ‘in process’, and God’s not done with any of us yet.
But you never think you’re wrong, or admit going too far, so I’ll stop trying.
Actually, I tire of the CC stuff. Hey it’s Good Friday! What better time to ask;
1.) Does anyone here really believe that the Temple veil actually ripped in two or that the graves opened and the dead walked the streets of Jerusalem?
2.) or was Matthew using words that to make a point?
I lean to #2 myself. 🙂
Had a phone call while typing
“2.) or was Matthew using words that to make a point?” should read
” or was Matthew using words like that to make a point?”
I brought in the word “gloat” because of michaels headline and what followed. After I posted first Michael saw fit to add a postscript to the original post which I commended. I am not here defending Bob Coy or praising my friend Chet. I only posted to encourage all of us to watch or listen to the entire message and let God speak to us His words through it. This message is for the bride of Christ. It is not CCFTL PR spin despite what some cynics will claim.
I wasn’t gloating.
The nicest thing I’ve been called by Coy supporters is a liar.
Now, the record is clear.
RB, your #28. ROTFLOL.
Part of coping with life is having a good sense of humor. B:)
Blessings to all and Happy Good Friday.
Darn, I think it must be B-)
PP does it asgain! Well done Micheal. You had the news from day one but kept it tight lipped til the time was right. Well done big brother. Im proud of your integrity….of you
Guess not. Just trying to get the Blues Brothers Smiley Face.
You’re a hoot.
“This is my body”… literal.
“The graves opened”… figurative.
I suppose either interpretation is orthodox, but our interpretative choices are interesting…
J.U. it is a sense of humor that I have that keeps a lot of people safe and alive 🙂
My first Christian mentor told me that “Christians don’t have to act like they have a stick up their …” You can figure out the rest.
A sense of humor has served me well over the years. Some times you have to laugh to keep from crying. But that’s another story.
It’s a beautiful day. Michael and RB’s word has been verified. Now all you people get off your computers and go enjoy the sunshine. See you at the service tonight. 🙂 (Hope that one works.)
Blessings to you, my friend.
As I read today’s thread, we boast about our “being right” and breaking our arms as we pat ourselves on the back, for being the “first one on the scene” of the crime, to which God watched Bob and his partners Himself in real time, doing that which causes shame to the Body of Christ. What is more shameful, committing the sin of adultery or repeating and announcing the sordid crimes to the world through cyberspace. (I know, you are just doing your jobs of ‘reporting’ which absconds you)
On this Good Friday, we remember that Christ died for the sins of many. Mercy triumphs over judgment. I would rather be in fear and trembling and humility and ask for His mercy than boastful high fives over someone else’s sin. Rather, we dare confess our own inward lusts, lest we be numbered with the “Bob Coys” of this world.
When the new week starts, how will you carry the momentum of this “spiritual drunkenness,” so the numbers stay up? 15 minutes of “fame” here and there. Big deal. Friends, we are ALL “nobodies.” But God demands righteousness in the inward parts. Be careful lest the grave you dig falls onto you.
Why is it ok to have my integrity as a blogger called into question and disrepute?
This simply answers the critics.
This blog has existed for over a decade …in scandals and out.
It’s not about numbers, it’s about truth.
We’re far more aware of our own sin than you are…
Pn :p. 😉
Well Hebrews indicates that the veil tearing was figurative.
Thank you Michael and blessings to you and yours on this Holy week of celebration. He has risen. He has risen indeed!
PN, lots of wisdom on here today…keep it up my friend
Are you suggesting that it would have been better, and by that more God pleasing, if nothing was ever said or done in the Coy matter?
I seem to remember God reporting on the flaws of many and then having the Bible writers write down the flaws and send it off to the publishers
When we have three Gospels reporting it as history, I can’t ignore that.
The Hebrews passage simply tells us what was represented by the tearing of the curtain on the death of Christ.
In my opinion, of course.
Michael’s 69…that is what I always thought. The veil was torn and Hebrews explained the incredible meaning of it.
Michael & Nonnie – I think you have it backwards.
The Hebrews passage says that it was actually the tearing of his flesh, that opened the heavenly curtain for us.
I find it funny that there are no Jewish reports of Dolly Madison having to sew up the torn curtain.
We don’t need to debate it on this fine Good Friday – I just wanted people to think.
But I think God wanted to make the point that it was an earthshaking (not literal) event that Jesus by his death did away with that separation between God and man.
Again, you’re a hoot.
Of all people here, you should be advocating that God uses physical, tangible things to demonstrate spiritual realities… 🙂
You speak in platitudes, I have admitted wrong on here a few times. I would say things in person. I have confronted Pastors before respectfully. If they choose to get prideful then that shows their heart.
1.) Does anyone here really believe that the Temple veil actually ripped in two or that the graves opened and the dead walked the streets of Jerusalem?<<<
Of course this actually happened, just as Lazarus was risen from the dead a few days earlier.
And here's something else that I thought of…. Remember, it's the Lord Who not only created all things but He holds all things together. If He let go, everything would fly apart. We got a taste of that when Christ died on the Cross- the rocks began to break up, the earth quaked, the sun didn't shine very well. In other words, at Christ's death the material world started falling apart. Of course, the Holy Trinity was still there and the world didn't completely dissolve at that time, but it was a taste of what happened when the Lord partook of death.
We should be thinking on these things. It all happened so that the sinful pastor in Florida, as well as the rest of us sinners, can have eternal life.
Michael and JTB are two of the guys I have apologized too
GWYIF, can you really be this arrogant and self righteous? You might be the holiest person on this blog today. That’s quite an accomplishment on Good Friday…
“…you should be advocating that God uses physical, tangible things to demonstrate spiritual realities…”
I do – Jesus on the cross
Wouldn’t a graveyard full of people walking the street or the Temple veil being torn be written in the Jewish record somewhere? Josephus or perhaps a report from Pilate? We know that regular temple worship continued after the death of Christ without skipping a beat. There was no sign hung up “Holy of Holies out of order for curtain repair.”
MLD. It is an interesting discussion. William Lane Craig was in hot water recently for saying Matthew was making reference to the Mishnah, or something like that.
I hope this is a typo…
He resigned. He was not fired or removed. Why are you so prideful?
MLD, Michael, et al, Please. I am no better than anyone here. But there has been bitter arguing, profanity, insults and for what? I don’t know about you, but I feel grimy rather than cleansed after reading all the comments of the last week. Like I need an acid bath. Then, today, backslapping and accolades for what? Being honest? Telling the truth? I have been here a long time myself and I remain anonymous at this time, but maybe I should not be here. I would not congratulate or tout myself, I would rather get on my knees and cry. This has been a week of sorrow for a church in Florida, it has been a time of sadness, not victory. The Body of Christ has been hit.
Michael, do you have to answer your critics and prove them wrong or is God big enough to fight for you?
Let Him approve you.
You HAVE done a good work, I know your heart, but today my heart is disturbed. Does CNN, ABC, NBC tout that they are right and others wrong? They report the facts, supposedly. BUT… Are you a news channel or ministry? Are you a pastor of a church (“example”, “servant”, a “living martyr” martoose for the faith) or a blogger who can get a free pass for the allowance of profane talk (your commenters) in the name of ‘truth?’ My word Michael, your best friend on your blog called you an “a**h*** today or yesterday and nary a rebuke from you.
A double standard has been cemented here it seems.
Is Bob Coy the devil or a lost soul? Does Jesus love Bob Coy? Did Jesus die for the sins of Bob Coy? Is Jesus grieved over Bob Coy? Does Jesus invite Bob Coy back to Himself? Is there a pardon left for Bob Coy? Is Bob Coy “Bob Coy” because he pastored a CALVARY CHAPEL “mega-church” or because he is really just Bob Coy? Bob’s sins were paid for. Bought at a price. He is a man. Like you. Like me. He will be chastened by the Lord. Not us. God help us all….. Go to church today brethren and be healed, cleansed and made new through the blood of Christ. Pray for Bob Coy, CCFTL and the PP. (Don’t read between the lines of my post. Take it as it please…)
…correction: it was Michael Licona referring to it as “Apocalyptic Terminology”. But I believe Craig said the same at some point. Licona garnered the wrath of Old Fart Geisler when he stated that. Hat tip: Google.
As it’s Good Friday I wondered about taking a deeper perspective on this subject…
So many want to stop at “Bob committed sexual sin and there but for the grace of God go I.”
This irritates me. Millions of godless people have not cheated on their wives multiple times. Millions have not committed such deceptions. Many have corrected their own immoral thoughts without the Christian faith to protect them. Why? Because they have character.
I have no desire to beat Bob Coy. I do desire that the church learn the right lesson.
Bob Coy’s sin did not begin with porn, lust, or an act of adultery. Sure, it began with sin nature. But what really went wrong so wholly? I’d suggest the answer lies here… When a man accepts for himself a ministry role that God never intended, there it began. It began with a pastor believing his own PR. With men thinking they can employ their skills, ingenuity,looks,charisma to market Jesus. When the minister became central to the ministry. When men revel in the glory of the spotlight while saying ‘all the glory to Jesus.’ When they accept ‘performance related pay’ in order to live lives of luxury not sacrifice. When they absorb small churches, steal flock, deny local pastors a viable ministry, and modernism tells them multi-site is any kind of a future.
When men get that kind of power, praise, money, adulation… This is what ensues more times than not. The celebrity world proves the corrupting power – we are not immune.
More concerning to me than Bob being put back in a pulpit is this… The church wants to continue in the same vein, same model, same pattern… And needs another charismatic celebrity to keep going. We haven’t learned. Just a thought, fwiw.
Sad that people in Third World countries are crucifying themselves today to appease God. I wonder in which ways we tend to do the same in our religiousity?
Is that a picture of Peyton Manning at the top of this thread?
Apologia. Our sin nature will never leave us be. That’s why the higher one climbs, the further one falls.
As to me still being a “liar” because I reported Coy was fired.
My initial sources and information were that he was fired.
Those reports have been verified in the other details given, so I’m going to believe they were accurate on this count as well.
If that part of my report was in fact inaccurate, then I have no problem apologizing for the misinformation.
For some reason, I think the rest of the report has more weight…
“I walk, I stumble, I fall. I get back up again. But all thaw while I keep dancing”. Hillel.
I think the evangelical doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved has given many people the false idea that they can do whatever they want and still obtain Heaven.
As a result, they have no fear of God.
Neo – I like Geisler very much, but I think Licona showed him that there is a new sheriff in town. 😉
I guarantee you there is not a frog’s hair of difference between fired and resigned at times like these. BUT here is the good stuff! It is Good Friday, the day that Jesus ratified forever the NEW COVENANT in which there is forgiveness of sins. It is the day of vindication. So the little vindication given today to Michael is a shadow of the great vindication that is big enough to cover us all.
Bob Coy is included on New Covenant Friday, CCFL is included, PPreacher bloggers are included. Good Friday is an announcement big enough for ALL.
You are forgiven in the Name of Jesus bloggers and you do not have to parse that as fine as frog hair to get included.
When any news agency or blog is challenged on the accuracy of a report, (especially one as sensitive as this) they answer.
The Florida contingent has been quick to defend Coy and blast me…for the sin of reporting the truth.
There are other stories I will be covering and I need to be credible to do so.
Profanity really doesn’t bother me on a personal level…(there’s some fodder for the critics), but I do try to keep it off the blog unless I’m the one swearing. 🙂
I try as hard as I can to deal with personal conflicts off the blog… a lot of us fuss at each other, then go on afterwards.
Finally, we spent a whole week after the initial report running articles that would be edifying after a mess like this. We chose not to ride this story for numbers and we turned down numerous media opportunities that we felt were not concerned about the Gospel implications of this story.
We all understand the pain of watching a beloved leader fall and I’m under no illusions about my own capabilities to sin and sin grievously.
We have tried to be fair and even handed with friend and foe alike…both have been able to express what they feel.
That’s the best I can do.
I don’t want that comment to get lost…it’s the fear of God that saves me from horrific failure.
BD. Thank God!
I don’t know if it’s that we think we can do whatever we want and still obtain heaven. It’s more I can’t help what I do and am ecstatic I can still obtain heaven! That’s the way I see it and many, many other Christians I know do, too.
Frog’s hair – that must be a deep Mississippi term. 🙂
MLD- he was trying to give you something you could relate to when you look in the mirror 🙂
PN – hey watch that. Yesterday on FaceBook, a lady high school classmate posted pictures from our Jr High yearbook. I found my picture and asked her, “what’s that stuff on top of my head?” 🙂
Michael, you ARE credible. I have never known you in the past eight to ten years to say something without doing due diligence. But we can endanger our credibility with things that defy scripture, i.e. profanity. It doesn’t matter if we are bothered by it personally or not. But it dilutes our credibility. Allowance of that and other liberties threaten your “slapping hand” in the words of E.V. Hill. You don’t have to enforce credibility. (“Let another man praise you.”) I affirm that your heart is in the right place. Thanks for being genuine and forebearing. I knew what you knew about Bob as well, but the truth will come out eventually. I thank God for Pastor Chet Lowe who stepped up and said the hard things Wednesday night, and the result was probably a greater shock for some there at CCFTL. Now, as pastors let’s get on with comforting the “last, the lost and the least” who are affected by this, and try to restore them to their first love. Ours is the ministry of reconciliation. I agree and say amen to your #95.
Great comment, Dread!
There’s such an abundance of bad news. I want to celebrate the good news today 🙂
According to the link on number 79, Bob Coy is speaking at the 2014 CC Pastors’ Conference in July.
Surely that was posted before he “resigned.”
Thank you for the kind words and affirmation.
We get to the profanity as soon as we can…but if I’m busy only Dusty is left to moderate.
If we’re both busy…it doesn’t happen.
At this juncture I’m ready to move on with what we started doing the first week…finding the redemptive hand of God in this mess for all concerned.
I will reiterate that I’m very grateful that CCFTL disclosed the facts…and I see no need for further disclosure on their part.
He’s not speaking.
Just a programming note…
We will be closing early…I have a full plate and I’m really uncomfortable with this being the focus on a day when we should be about better things.
“All should listen to the entire teaching and confront our own lack of the Fear of God”
You know this has always bothered me as a Christian, why does God want us to fear Him? Why would any father want his children to fear him. I never quite got that, I get reverence, respect, listen and heed the warnings of said father but fear.
I’d rather have a truth telling Kahlua sipping cussin’ Calvinist than a slimy smarmy smooth scripture spinner any day.
I’m with brian, “reverence, respect, listen and heed the warnings of said father but fear.”
bless you again, brian
“I can’t help what I do and am ecstatic I can still obtain heaven!”
I’d nuance this even more, that we cannot escape the presence of God, nor chase Him away!
The terms are all applicable.
The fear is the fear of discipline, not the Person delivering it for the child of God.
God, like any good father, disciplines His kids.
Trey isn’t afraid of me…but he does fear the discipline that can accompany the correction of his behaviors.
Now, to be honest…he doesn’t fear me much. 🙂
Jesus’ way of describing The Father is so awe inspiring, and motivating. We’re humbled into wanting to please Him by His love, His relentless pursuit, His continued welcoming.
OSAS is the simple understanding that The Father never loses one of His own, who he gave to Jesus as a gift. It motivates dedication out of gratitude.
It’s common that we all realize how, as teens, our parents are twits, as twentysomethings, our parents are kinda OK, as thirtysomethings our parents knew some good stuff, as fourtysomethings our parents are wise, and as fiftysomethings are parents are dear and in our high respect.
I think this plays out in every culture, all throughout time, especially for the followers of God.
Thank you, my friend…good to see you here!
🙂 Very glad to be here, Michael!
I watched a faith based film last night on Netflix titled Home Run. No academy award nominations will come from this but I really enjoyed it. It’s about a professional baseball player who is an alcoholic and his road back. I liked the depiction of Christians coming together as community and the impact it had on the story. There’s a lot of easy ways to not like it because of budget and the actor’s abilities but I thought they pulled it off. It makes me think of each of us as we struggle at times, some much more than others. Have a happy Easter.
Re: #114….or just the opposite. The older we get the more we see what fools our parents were.
Momma said there would be days like this….
99 bottles of drought on the wall,
99 pockets of cash.
Take one down
drag him through town,
98 pockets of cash in the Hall.
I plan on trying my hand at home brewing sometime this summer…luckily no drought here.
I am pro beer.
Just not too much especially around good looking women or I’m tempted to go Bob Coy.
This story about Bob and CCFL is so heavy to me.
I’m drawing out of a very deep well of grief and sickness of soul as I think and pray about it, reliving painful memories. I’m feeling things that I’ve avoided for quite awhile.
There is such a vast separation between church culture and being a devout disciple of Jesus.
May God use this vomitous debacle to wake us all to the seriousness of being saved and living a life that represents our Lord. Blessed are those who mourn.
Praying for you paigemom. ((((Hugs))))
“Blessed are those who mourn.”
I meant to say, that is the best comment yet!
No. Mine was the best comment. Ever.
Did he have any choice but to resign? Wasn’t an outside Pastor involved on behalf of the women?
PS I wonder if they are getting feedback that people like Chet and if this is a “sign” of what’s to come.
IMO, it seems strange for everyone to smile and worship acting as if nothing has happened.
Shouldn’t there be any godly sorrow at a time like this? Maybe I am wrong, but it appears contrived.
That’s one thing that bugged me about the place. People seemed plastic in the sense that they didn’t have what would be considered to be normal emotions at a given circumstance. It’s as everything is always OK, even when it’s not. Maybe that’s how they were trained by the Pastor. Just seems like inappropriate emotions. These are the things that made me feel like an outsider being there.
No my comment about your comment about the Bible’s comment is the best! comment!
In all seriousness, I think what happened to BC is a reflection of what’s happening in the church today across all denominational lines, and it is a time to weep and pray and mourn, as 2 Chronicles 7:14 tells us if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins heal their land!
I just now noticed your post and that’s how I am feeling. As if someone has died. And we left years ago. But all that waiting, knowing in my gut that something was bound to give, the sickness over what we endured.. and now something did happen.
Apparently it is easy for most, especially the worship team to just move on. Are they more spiritual than I am?
It’s like the blank look on their faces when trying to discuss pressing matters. If it didn’t fit into “the box” of what they were able to discuss, there was no comment. Hard to describe. Maybe others understand.
Rickey Bobby- Do you hold grudges? 🙂
A Jackie sighting! Did you comment on the Prasch fiasco?
Neo, your 119, wait ’til you’re 58, you’ll probably think differently, at least I hope so =)
Anonymous…. are the worship team members ‘more spiritual’ than you? OMgosh… perhaps they are more superficial that you. …. or they are further along in their grief work? …or just accustomed to living in another realm than reality. On stage, microphones, spotlights = alternate reality. Each person is processing this ordeal in their own way, based on what they’ve lived through previously. I talked to a long time CC friend today who said ‘oh, I guess that being with more than one woman is worse than only one.” Ralph.
Neo, your 119, wait ’til you’re 58, you’ll probably think differently, at least I hope so =)
Wait…is Neo really Benjamin Button???
Jackie, is the RCC the great whore of Babylon? 🙂
Great article by someone who actually attends there!
If Ben Button is the guy who gets lectured about the dynamics of his personal family…then, yes, I am.
Let’s look at this from a totally different angle point.
Where were those in the Body of Christ at Florida with “discernment” or the “Word of knowledge?”
This whole thing is an indictment against Coy not being capable of leading his sheep into the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the usage of such. That is a given.
Or anyone else who listened to him on the radio not sniffing out that something was amiss..
There were those who sensed that something was not right, surely?
The fact that this went on for some time, even though there were tips or tells given by Coy in his messages.
Here is just another reason for the equipping of the saints. Teaching upon the gifts of the Holy Spirit and encouraging the usage of such.
The few times that I heard Coy on K~wve here in southern CA I had to turn him off. Something about him rubbed me the wrong way.
I would ponder it, wondering if perhaps it was him presenting him self instead of Christ that bothered me. I couldn’t quite put my finger on it. Even my son sensed something wasn’t right with Coy and mentioned it to me.
Now we all know what it actually was after the fact.
Places that shun the gifts of the Holy Spirit are suspect, after all who of us wants to be exposed by the gift of discernment or the word of knowledge if we are astray?
I know of one CCCM pastor who had his hand~in~the~cookie~jar and steered clear of the gifts and their usage lest he be outed.
Keep the sheep entertained and dumb. Seinfeld them! Coy did an excellent job and went out on top like Jerry did.
But unlike Jerry there will undoubtedly be law suits coming at Coy and the deeper pockets of the church he built.
All of this could have been avoided had the sheep been equipped to pick up on it at it’s inception. Surely the Holy Spirit tapped on a few of the staffs shoulders at Coys empire?
“Let him who has an ear hear what the Spirit saith.”
Now there is damage control and a lot of painful stuff coming as the sandy foundation crumbles under the illusionary church that Coy built on the sand of his comedy.
May the baby sheep find a better home. And may the older lambs look after them as the quest for a true shepherd continues. Above all else may they all seek after Jesus Christ and not entertainment!
You gotta be kidding, the gift of knowledge includes the ability to sniff sin, and to be able to detect when someone is in a state of sexual immorality, I don’t think so or we’d probably be outing half the people we sit next to at church, “hey something fishy about that John McCarthur he must be cheating on his wife,” do you know how ridiculous that is, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and God is in charge of exposing it, there isn’t a gift of the Holy Spirit called the “gift of sin sniffing,” everybody is a prophet after the fact.
I read this a few days ago on a news service. I literally cannot stand Al Mohler he has ruined this baptist convention in my opinion. We often discuss abusive tactics to quell questioning. Shame on him, of course his ilk will consider this a “victory”. It is a hollow and very shallow “victory” just like his theology imo. I am beginning to think I want nothing to do with this religion anymore, who am I kidding, I am basically a functioning atheist, well that is what I am told. God I am sick of it, I really am.
Just Saying, “Places that shun the gifts of the Holy Spirit are suspect, after all who of us wants to be exposed by the gift of discernment or the word of knowledge if we are astray?”
I have so much to respond to in your post, but it would be too long, and non-relevant to many.
I was one that wrote a letter to BC after we left the church but still had our kids in the school. It was a letter of discernment about how the place had changed into a business. Mostly it was a wonderful letter of thanks (I had asked a few friends outside the church what they thought before it was sent) for many years of bringing me closer to the Lord.
I only found out after they tried to railroad us out of the school that this letter is what set him off. AT least I put the pieces together. He made a personal call to me. So it seems afterwards there was an all out attack on me. I believed the Lord urged me to write it. And there was a situation a few years back that I was still waiting for him to call me on. It never happened. The Lord would allow a few events where I would see him face to face and he would say he was going to contact us, and he never did, At this point if he is reading this blog and he knows who I am, hopefully it will be freeing for me, instead of continuing to live in bondage to what was done to our family. We have moved on but the scars remain and we have tough skins now for church in general, although I can now say I know the Lord better and am no longer one of his blindly led sheep. I am still waiting for him to make things right, but I doubt now it will ever happen. I have been praying fervently for him for many years. Our situation rocked our marriage, and our kids faith, and the lack of being led by the Spirit allowed many things to happen in he school that would not even happen in a secular school. But that would take much time to write about.
I will say that earlier on he respected me for my discernment. But when there were issues that he could have attended to, he brushed us off, and there were serious issues in the school. I used to attend a weekly prayer group where I would pray out loud for God to remove those in leadership that should not be there. After the meetings, others that attended attacked me. “How dare you pray that way”! Is what they would say to me.
Anything I tried to do to better the church/ school was an attack on me personally.
Example: Purchasing Christian movies for the kids during special events as prizes. Instead, they would rather give them gift cards to buy coffee in the coffee shop.
I could go on and on. Yes, I personally knew things were not right for a long time, and perhaps I stupidly (lack of a better word) thought that God had me there to pray against the enemy. That it was some sort of spiritual warfare I was to be a part of.
I used to walk around the perimeter of the property and pray…many many times.
So to answer your question (with about 10 more paragraphs I could write) yes, there were some with discernment. I have to say I never met any of them. So I was a kind of oddball that was mocked by others there. Anyone in any kind of position was climbing the ladder. But they would have no part in anyone that brought up valid concerns. They didn’t want anyone there who would “rock the boat”. If I get braver, I may just write about a situation that would for sure expose me. I’ll wait because I don’t know if I want to go there.
I just wanted to comment on the subject of discernment.
I have to say in my experience in both the school and the church, I really don’t think it’s there. It’s not welcome.
I also wanted to make a comment on the subject of other churches in the area before anyone tells us we need to find another church.
We have visited many others in the area. what people need to know is how CCFL monopolized Broward County. They literally “bought out” their competition- failing churches that could not compete with BC’s wit and charm. He is a very charming, charismatic man. When he speaks with you he gives you penetrating eye contact. As if you’re the only one in the room.
How can any other churches compete with his delivery? So what happened to all those Pastor’s who had to leave the 7 churches he bought out? I say it’s like a monopoly board–taking houses and building hotels in those spaces.
There’s another church called “Church by the Glades”. When we visited the Pastor there said “Bob will save them on the East side and I will save them on the West”. I attended that church when the Pastor was first called in to grow a small church of about 200 or less. It was actually a vigil after 9/11. The y had already bought a piece of land in a residential area and were waiting to build. They built a new sanctuary already (to replace the old one they had less than 7 yrs) and they have a school now, and it is huge. They are already doing what CCFL did buy having other “campuses”. So this is the new model for this area.
There are small strip center churches all over the place. One on every corner. Men ill equipped who may have just been men who left their day job to Pastor. Maybe not even called. Anyway, just a synopsis of this area and the peculiarities of living in Broward County that is really dominated by BC and now DH (the other church).
One more and I’m done.
There is a John Macarthur Masters Seminary Grad who was newly appointed to a “failing” church in an area called Plantation. Many were looking forward to really getting line by line expository preaching.
He would literally spend 3 weeks on one verse. Go over and over it. And then some.
The next Sunday you thought maybe he would move on. And he’d maybe add another verse. People were sleeping. he had to see that.
It was sad because I think he was a good teacher. Some in leadership shared their concerns. He obviously knew-someone spoke with him–he announced from the pulpit that he was not going to change what he was doing.
I guess he didn’t care if people were leaving (there were less than 100 to begin with.)
So it just baffles me…what is going on in “churchdom”.
The enemy really is winning the battle for sure.
I am thankful for Youtube. I can continue to watch resected Pastors such as Adrian Rogers and be in the Word. I am exhausted by “church”. I keep praying that the Lord would send someone Spirit led to start a new church in the area. I am going to make that at thetop of my prayer list now. There have to be other sheep praying the same.
Blessing to everyone here. And thankful for this blog, a place where we can share. Please pray for us and all the other families harmed by CCFL. There have to be others. Sorry for so many words.
My spouse wanted me to add this-
Many, many people are deleting their Facebook. Not only Pastors and men. Women who were in ministry or in the “inner circle”. That is really telling. Was there some connection with someone and they don’t want any evidence?
I totally agree with your assessment of the area in which we live. The charismatic pastors just continue to spread themselves around through acquisition and video. What ever happened to discipleship so ano0ther pastor was learning. These pastors think they are all that and do not raise others to take their place, as is the Biblical model. We are tired of being “entertained” as it is not entertaining in least. We have found a small church and have settled in for now. What they have done over this weekend with Maundy Thursday, Good Friday services makes me long for Resurrection Day service and that is a good thing.
thanks for the link. I have not listened to Chet’s message yet, but I will. I will say one thing – maybe I am just a skeptic – but I bet there is more there and they just told what was already known hoping it would be enough. Praise them for “being honest” – but are they really? We’ll see.
Ok, wait. Went to the link and here is their write-up…
“In this message, Pastor Chet teaches us that when God is doing a new thing, we need to forget what lies behind and continue to move forward. We do this by relying on God’s great power and great grace—all while maintaining a great reverential fear of our Lord.”
So that’s their point.. forget the past and let’s move on…. ’nuff said! Really?
I said in the Christian Post that we had to be careful lest the wolves would continue to harm good churches. David Dawkins ( Pastor CC Chatanooga) took me to task, saying it wasn’t adultery and he knew it was just a moral failure. He made fun of me and then called me a gossip and other things. I wonder if he will tell me he is sorry now.
I understand your position and your point. You would be right if there were not such a gift of discernment available to the body of Christ.
1Cor 12:7-10 (NKJ)
“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, …to another discerning of spirits…”
1John 4:1 (NAS)
“…test the spirits to see whether they are from God…”
There really is such a gift as discernment.
Those who possess the spiritual gift of discernment have the ability to see right through smokescreens and obstacles as they uncover the real truth of a situation or matter.
After reading the few post from “Anonymous” just above, I think they had the gift in operation in their life. Anonymous did the right thing. But as in most cases where someone operates in the gift of discernment was rejected for peeling back the layers and exposing to the light.
What is totally obvious to someone exercising the gift of discernment, can be totally hidden to anyone without the gift of discernment.
Lack of knowledge about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and how they operate in the body of Christ is common in most churches. Therefore any one who does have the gift of discernment is viewed as a troublemaker and an odd individual. That is until the Lord reveals the truth and confirms what the one with discernment was indicating.
This is obviously a topic that the Lord would have discussed here in my estimation.
Anonymous may just be one of many within this BC church who came up against the wall as they sought to seek out the truth and faced rejection for it.
Thank you. I have suffered for many years “inside” the church for doing what was right.
I heard from many there that I was not operating in “love’ which made me question what the Lord was having me do.
I spent many, many years in tears, and felt alienated from the body.
It has made me depressed and isolated.
Jesus had to remind me what the Prophets suffered.
And what being a believer truly means.
While those who had shunned me continued to praise the church and the leadership, I often wondered what was wrong with me. Trials continued to pile on. I know if it were not for Him with me, I would have checked out. I am all the more stronger. I do not let one opportunity go by to witness of His great love for others, in the most unusual of circumstances.
I am rejected by believers and non-believers.
It is a lonely place to be in, but I feel His presence ever so much more now even through the suffering.
Thanks for the voice here. Blessing to everyone’s day.
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
You know I was reading this passage two days ago.
Michael has always talked about the responsibility of the people in the pews.
Well, this passage is all about the responsibility of the people in the pews.
People find people that will suit what they want to hear.
Both these verses are about nothing more than the the sin of the people in the pews.
Maybe, not quite fitting the topic completely, just some thoughts I had on these verses.
Gift of discernment and word of knowledge are not given to discern hidden sin, but to discern false doctrine, can you give an example where this gift as you define it; to detect hidden sin was used effectively to detect and expose hidden sin? In fact so called charismatic churches have have been known to be the most carnal, dating all the way back to the New Testament where Paul had to address the Corinthian church for their tolarence of sin, (like the man living with his father’s wife) even though they had all these gifts in operation, and Paul was aware of these sins not by some miraculous manifestation of the Spirit but because it was reported to him, thus he was able to deal with it.
And this problem of the sign gifts in the church being a “smokescreen” for people to live with sin in their lives is just as prevalent if not more so today. You don’t have to go any further than Benny Hinn to see this.
The gift of discernment is given to discern false doctrine and from what I’ve seen it’s the believers in these charismatic churches that are the most gullible to false doctrines and false teaching, and this is where supposedly these gifts are operating.
When it comes to moral sin, Paul tells us how to deal with it and it’s not by the operation of a supernatural gift as the word of knowledge or discerning of spirits, but instead he says “do not receive an accusation against an elder except by the word of two or three witnesses,” so again a report is given and it’s confirmed by witnesses, and this is the procedure that was followed by CCFL.
Hang in there Anonymous!
You may just have a prophetic gifting in the lord Jesus Christ. A gift that brings with it, by default, much rejection by others.
That is why Jesus said “if you receive a prophet you will receive a prophets reward.”
In other words you will receive what the prophet is capable of bringing to the community table.
But if you reject a prophet you rob yourself of what a prophet can bring to the community table.
Anonymous you have a prophetic gifting and the rejection is a great part of that gifting. Do not hide out in your cave as some of us have done as a result of rejection.
Even though you have been vindicated in a sense, you will always have to face up to the rejection. Jesus was rejected and despised. We also will be if we bear His light and love to others.
I am proud of you for your efforts. Living fish struggle against the flow to go upstream, dead fish freely float downstream…
Keep on swimming my friend!
Well Acts 5:1-11 is an example of the Spirit revealing hidden sin.
Yes and Ananias and Saphira also fell dead! There are things that happened once and by apostolic authority, in Acts 2 we also read of the Spirit falling upon the believers as flames of fire, but we don’t see that happening today either. That’s why I said to show me a contemporary example of this taking place where a preacher or anyone for that matter is exposed of hidden sin by the word of knowledge and/or discernment. The way it happens is by witnesses that report it.
You can sit by my fire anytime!
Yep, they fell dead, but the Spirit still revealed their hidden sin.
And I just looked back at your comment.
You said, “Gift of discernment and word of knowledge are not given to discern hidden sin, but to discern false doctrine, can you give an example where this gift as you define it; to detect hidden sin was used effectively to detect and expose hidden sin?”
Nothing about contemporary in there.
Finally listened to the Fear of God message. I do better when they just stand up and tell the truth and tell how they are going to handle it and ask people to respond with grace. Nevertheless there it was in a sermon. That fellow is quite the communicator. I do not respond well to him as it feels so acted and contrived. One thing sure, those kind of guys always outnumber me by 20-1 or more, so the public seems to like it.
I hope they come through it and remain ‘a family’ as he says.
Disturbing thing about the BC thing to me: not the adultery or fornication per-se, but the total lack of the fear of God. He didn’t ‘resign until he was ‘caught.’ And the fact that he stood in the pulpit teaching Gods Word for who knows how long in what appears to be an unrepentant state. That’s scary. This is what I don’t see people touching much upon. Yes, we are all sinners, etc just as BC is. But he was handling Gods Word in front of thousands while living this way. That’s not right. And yes, that makes me question many more things about him, profession of faith, etc, etc.. It’s sad. His circus mentality always betrayed a lack of reverence for God to me as well.. Just saying.. God be merciful to me.. He knows my sinful heart.
Sorry, I thought I had said that, sometimes what’s in the mind does not make it to the page, so let me ask can you think of a contemporary example of where the gift of discernment or word of knowledge has been used to expose and deal with someone’s sin as it was with Ananias and Saphira?
There is no biblical “gift of discernment”.
There is the “gift of discerning spirits”.
The gift of discerning spirits has to do with just that…discerning the origin of a spirit.
Here is an example of that gift in use;
“As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling. She followed Paul and us, crying out, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.” And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour.”
(Acts 16:16–18 ESV)
Doctrine, false or true, is to be determined by testing against the Scriptures, not by the alleged supernatural gifting of someone.
I do pray for BC restoration though. And family. Lord knows those that are his and will work sovereignly using any means needful to bring his people home. Praise God for his discipline. The rod is comforting. It’s been my only comfort in large periods of my Christian life. Praise God for it.
No, I can give no contemporary examples.
I would probably need to search far and wide and if I did find an example I am sure it would be dismissed.
But, gift or not, or whatever we wish to call it. I believe this scripture.
It shows that God can reveal hidden sin to people for His purposes.
Whether they drop dead or not is irrelevant.\
God can do today what He did previously.
That is good enough for me.
Just a question for Patrick and others perhaps based on what Patrick says here;
“But he was handling Gods Word in front of thousands while living this way. That’s not right..”
And I don’t know if it applies to BC or not, but supposing BC had committed these sins 1 or two years ago, and had asked God for forgiveness and was no longer engaging in these sins, but then the sin surfaces somehow, would your statement still apply? In other words could he have dealt with it before God previously and thus felt he was forgiven and justified to teach and preach God’s word, or should he confess his sin before the congregation and step down in every case, and would you say that is the case only in the case of adultery or other sins as well?
The revelation of sin through witnesses is no less a work of the Holy Spirit than if by supernatural revelation.
God uses means and the normal means He uses are the natural ways He created.
Yes but the question remains cite one example of supernatural means used in our times to expose someone’s sin, but I can cite countless examples where it was through witnesses that God used that the sin was exposed and dealt with, including BC’s!
How would you handle it if it was you Antonio?
If I committed adultery, truly was brought to repentance before God and before my wife, I still could not stand in front of my people with a clear conscience in that role and continue as if it was all behind me. It brings up the faulty CC ecclesiology and lack of church discipline, etc….. the fear of God would (hopefully) lead me to come fully into the light and clean before the body of believers God called me to serve as well..
I want to comment on what you said about, “where the gift of discernment was” with the people at CCFL.
Pastors of these mega churches tend to so separate themselves from the rest of the body, that people have very little contact with them and thus very little ability to have discernment with how they are doing as a person or a Christian. Regardless of the motive of pastors to separate themselves, doing so actually creates a whole world for them to fall into sin and not have to worry about any accountability. Thus, the lack of personal contact keeps the normal working of discernment through the Holy Spirit.
Also, in a man’s teaching it is hard to discern many times a man’s true spiritual state, especially if they are very gifted. When we first went out to plant a church, we continued to receive teaching tapes from the pastor at the church where we had gone out. Those first two years, I thought that this particular pastor’s teaching was better than I had ever remembered it to be during the years we were under his ministry. He used to go off on tangent rabbit trails a lot and it actually distracted me from what he was teaching a lot, but during those two years he was much more on target during those two years. I really got a lot of it. Then, we found out that this man had been having an affair that began about the time when we had moved away. God was using this man in his teaching, even when his heart was not really in the right place before God. I thought after everything came to light that God must have used him during those two years because He cared so much for the people of the church.
Another comment about discernment has to do with how to discern what is right when you are referring to a mega church. As churches begin to grow very big, one thing after another begins to depart from the norm, and you begin to lose proper perspective. We visited CCFL in 2005, while on vacation, and I was offended then about what a show the worship had become. There were multiple videographers walking around doing close ups of the musicians when they would rip a solo or sing a certain part, etc., and I seemed much more like just a professional performance than worship. Now, I have heard how much BC made in salary per year from the church, and I am shocked and appalled. But, his salary had been growing and growing for many years, I am sure. In other words what I am trying to say through all of this is that the creep of what is proper and appropriate for the church had been a moving target for 25 years or more. It is just not now that the commercial and business of the church has gone way beyond what God would have for a church, in my opinion.
I prefer smaller churches, and a simple church life and ministry, and the “mega” aspect of the church is in my opinion a American corruption of what the church should be.
Anyway, I think we should pray that CCFL will reassess what normal and appropriate should be for a church at this point, and try to bring themselves into better alignment with what God commands and exhorts from His word.
Nobody knows how to raise children better than someone who has never done it.
Nobody knows how to run a megachurch better than someone who has never done it.
Nobody knows more about the gifts of the Spirit than someone who has never seen them in operation.
Come to think of it, nobody knows more about marriage than someone who has not paid the awful price to actually make one work.
Thank heaven for the Internet, where all those idiots can enlighten the rest of us.
I’ve spent my life since the age of 16 raising kids.
I have more mega church pastors on speed dial than you.
I was raised Pentecostal.
God called me out of CC after 17yrs, went to CCBC, etc, etc. We go to a reformed baptist church now. I’m thankful for this. Night and day difference when a church practices church discipline, holds all members (pastors too) accountable. There is a sense real unity in Christ unlike I really experienced in CC. In CC, there were the spiritual, and not-so-spiritual.. Now it’s just one body, all members accountable to each other trying their best to work out sanctification with our messed up selves in this sinful world.
So it sounds like what you’re saying, is that the pastor, teacher, etc. should always confess his sin to the congregation, and should always step down? And do you feel that that person should never return to that position?
I don’t know about you, but I think CCFL handled it right, in not having BC have to stand teary eyed confessing his sin before the congregation, with someone secretly recording it to give it to the secular news media, and then we’d have to be hearing it and seeing it for the next millennia like Jimmy Swaggart.
And if you believe that he should never come to the pulpit again, what you make of David Hocking, should he not be preaching and teaching today? Or do you think it’s possible for God to fully restore a fallen pastor back into the ministry?
Thanks for enlightening us on that PP vet.
So if your pastor committed one of the grievous sins, what is the procedure that’s followed?
Hocking never went back to pastorate did he?
Repentant or unrepentant, he would still be asked to step away from pastorate. If unrepentant, excommunication from church fellowship. If repentant, encouraged to stay with the body and shown the grace of Christ.
Assuming you’re talking adultery Antonio.
Thank you for that balanced comment JimB, you make a lot if good points, I think you’re right much of the applicability of scripture gets lost in a mega church format, and the message can still be right-on even if the person’s life isn’t, but it’s just a matter of time that God will deal with the vessel!
So if he’s repentant, he’s encouraged to stay within the body? Does that really ever happen? I would think that they would probably just move away, even if they’re repentant. What pastor could remain in the congregation they once pastored as congregants, have you ever seen or heard of that happening, I haven’t. The “A” is still the scarlet letter, human nature being what it is, even if God has forgiven him, the congregation would have a hard time with it, and would never see him the same way or his family, so most likely they would just move away and try to start somewhere else as congregants, though some like Chuck Smith would feel that they can be restored to pastoring, as he tried to restore David Hocking!
I can’t imagine them ever staying either. That’s how it’d play out though, holding out the possibility. Gotta go for now. Nice chatting.
David Hocking has a radio program
And it looks like he’s a guest speaker at different churches, primarily CCs, it looks like from his schedule.
So let me ask you, are you able to accept him in that capacity i.e., as a radio teacher, evangelist, church guest speaker, or do you see that as not being right, and if you can accept DH in his present ministry could you accept BC in ten years from now let’s say in the same capacity?
Take care Patrick, nice talking with you too!
Hocking was back in the pulpit instantly.
How did that turn out? Do you think that was advisable? Or do you think it’s more of a case by case situation?
But back to DH, although he wasn’t a CC, yet he was restored by CS of CC in what you say was instantaneously, so could it be that this set a precedent for future fallen pastors within CC, that Chuck missed the opportunity that instead of being tough and severe as the scripture says “and those elders that are sinning admonish in front of the congregation so that the rest may fear”, and in not doing that with DH, there wasn’t a strong message sent so that the pastors that followed would remember that lesson, and as a consequence this leaven is plaguing CCs.
Well I think with the way the BC situation has been handled at CCFL, has given a strong message to the church at large and CC in particular of what’s at stake and what can be lost if one chooses the path of sexual immorality.
I guarantee you BC wife “discerned” something was going on. Wives possess an amazing ability to know when something isn’t right.
I listened to the link of Chet’s message from minute 50 on. I sure hope it doesn’t come out that the leadership really did know something “before” he says they did.
I think the angry voices have somewhat quelled and that is good. So often people are more angry at the messenger than at the message, an exercise in missing the point. The sad fall another prominent pastor should break our heart. Turning against one another in the aftermath of such a revelation is a testimony to how weak our love is. We are weak indeed. Now let the strong help the weak to rise up in Ft Lauderdale. Now let the healing ensue with more vigor than the fault-finding that is so easily accessible to us all.
And on the “third day” … let us put our energies behind that report.
Antonio regarding your question at #179, I have recently gotten plugged into a local church again after being on the road for several years driving truck, etc.
I’ve found a place I am seriously considering becoming a member of. I am asking a lot of questions, researching the church’s polity, etc. Thus, just last week I posed a question to the pastor on this very issue on what his perspective is regarding a pastor who commits sexual sin. This is his response:
“Let me answer your struggle with the pastor who failed morally being restored quickly. I too struggle with this & it’s my best biblical answer that this isn’t God’s design. A man’s “repentance needs to be as notorious as his sin” if he’s going to be restored to any relationship. But to be restored to leading God’s people, it would be my understanding that a sexual sin would disqualify him from leading a church. Now…after repentance has been seen & is clearly evident, potentially, he could be restored to a position of teaching in a Christian school or a discipleship setting, but pastoring or leading, would take years & years of recognized repentance. Any man rushing to be restored tells me that he’s not really repentant.
As far as safeguards & discipline at *****:
we have a structure in place that allows for & willingly opens the door to ask questions of me at any time, among our members & other leaders. Furthermore, I do not, nor do any of our leaders, meet with members of the opposite sex in private meetings. We do monthly & quarterly “care groups” for our leaders to see how their marriages are doing & to check in on each of them. This goes for me & *******, as well. It’s a very healthy environment for openness, confession & challenge.
If one of our leaders were to fall into sexual sin, we would: 1) confront him biblically & gently, 2) call him [me] to repent, 3) remove him from leadership, & 4) care for his family & his soul through counseling. Now, if he failed to confess his sin & did not repent, we would, according to 1 Timothy 5:17-22, we would publicly call upon him to repent.
I hope this helps. I appreciate the questions!”
That’s a good post Scott and a good response from a thoughtful pastor.
Alan, I thought so too.
Thank you Scott
Are you saying from this
If one of our leaders were to fall into sexual sin, we would: 1) confront him biblically & gently, 2) call him [me] to repent, 3) remove him from leadership, & 4) care for his family & his soul through counseling. Now, if he failed to confess his sin & did not repent, we would, according to 1 Timothy 5:17-22, we would publicly call upon him to repent
Then if he confesses and repents then there’s no need to do it publicly?
Because in this case with BC it was done publicly even though he stepped down and he apparently confessed, was it then unscriptural that they should expose him publicly?
The passage from 1 Timothy 5 implies that a “public rebuke” is necessary in the event a member refuses to repent. I would presume that would also include being kicked out of the church all together if one continues to be unrepentant.
In Bob Coy’s case he (according to Chet) confessed after being confronted and was removed from leadership. I know there’s some debate over whether he voluntarily stepped down or was told to step down. Not sure in this context it matters at this point. He is no longer pastoring that church and was exposed publicly by Chet in the link Michael provided.
In addition, I think the pastor I quoted put the seriousness of such a matter in context when he said (of a pastor or church leader who falls into sexual immorality), “A man’s “repentance needs to be as notorious as his sin” if he’s going to be restored to any relationship.”
Repent by definition means a change of mind. One knows a change of mind has happened when it is followed by a change of behavior – not just outwardly but inwardly. Paul wrote about the difference between a sorrow at getting caught and Godly repentance in 2 Cor 7.
Thank you Scott
I guess with BC, only time will tell and only God knows when and if that has happened and if we will ever see or hear him preaching again like David Hawking who God is using mightily again!
I guess only time will tell if and when that has happened in Bob’s life and if we will ever hear him or see him teaching and preaching the gospel like David Hawking, I sure hope so, I will miss him 🙁
As we sit vigil today, as the body of Christ rests in the tomb on the sabbath, perhaps we should just let Coy do the same.
I see that everyone seemed to play their role correctly.
1.) Coy did – his sin was also his denial, so when confronted he seems to have manned up.
2.) the board to swift and decisive action
3.) The leaders have revealed enough information so that no one will think Coy is on a 6 week vacation or summer sabbatical.
I found some of the comments above funny, that spiritual discernment wasn’t used by others (leaders or pewsters) and some how they were at fault. In this case everything was done as well as it could be and is contrary to all the previous reporting of how thigs are glossed over or covered up a CC.
There should be nothing but praise out of this.
David Hocking is back in ministry but to a very restricted group – the lunatic fringe. In 2009 & 2010 I was spending Wed nights with some old high school buddies who over the 40 some years since school had become Christians as had I. So, I couldn’t drag them to Lutheran churches so I traveled the SoCal CC circuit with them. We probably went a half dozen times to David Hocking when he was using the Salvation Army church in Tustin.
Whacky group and whacky teaching. But I would talk to him after each session and he is a most gracious and delightful person. I remember the first time, my buddies dragged me up to him to show that they had a Lutheran that he should meet. 🙂
MLD, I agree and was actually impressed with the way in which Chet handled the situation.
One correction to my Hocking comment. His teaching was actually pretty good … when he got into it – but he always spent the first half hour on Israel stuff… if I wanted that, I would subscribe to the Jerusalem Post … or the spy magazines, Don Stewart and Chuck Missler always quote. 😉
I use to hear him a long time ago before his fall and I enjoyed him except for his view about the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit, and then he came over to CC and his views changed on this, but I always thought he was a very good teacher, I think Chuck Smith was a man who had a lot of compassion for those who had fallen, and maybe to a fault. It’s interesting that even in the bible you see disagreements between men of God, as you have Barnabas wanting to give John Mark another chance after his failure and then you have Paul who didn’t. Not until the end of his life did Paul acknowledge John Mark as a faithful servant, when from that roman Prison he says, “and bring John Mark with you, who is profitable for the ministry!” So praise God that there can be true repentance and restoration and it can be made evident to all!
I tend to agree with your 201.
The matter is now in the open, the discipline has been delivered, and now it’s time to redeem the situation.
I’m pretty much done with the matter.
Well….Mark was a young man who skipped out on Paul, and so Paul did not want him to come on the next (dangerous) journey. Mark was not guilty of (ahem) “moral failure”
Many, many years later, Mark was older both in years and spiritual years walking with the Lord.
Not sure if repentance/restoration to ministry is best illustrated with Mark.
MLD, your #201 is excellent.
Steve, perhaps not, maybe Peter remains the best illustration for that(
but let me ask you, for I respect your opinion from other posts you’ve commented on, do you feel there’s hope for restoration to pastoral ministry for someone in Bob Coy’s situation, if there’s total and complete repentance with fruit of that obedience and repentance?
I too agree with MLD. Before last Wednesday it was just flat out wrong to be so vague as to have a split congregation as to whether Coy had a moment of conviction over some general moral failure, came on his own accord to the Board, confessed and stepped down….or if he was flat out caught in more than one adultery and habitual p*rn, confronted, and quit.
That sort of uncertainty, believe it or not, affected my congregation too, and no doubt most of the CCs out there.
Now, the church in FTL is to be commended for eliminating the vagueness with the truth.
The first rule of leadership is that the people of God come before the leader. ALWAYS.
Antonio, why are you connecting Bob Coy’s restoration to a public pastoral leadership role as evidence of a “complete repentance with fruit of that obedience and repentance?”
Wouldn’t it be just as meaningful for him to be fully restored to his wife, children and those who’s trust he betrayed without ever stepping into a pulpit again?
Well some of the questions you bring up Steve weren’t answered, that is wether he came to the board of his own accord and stepped down willingly it of was caught and exposed and forced to step down, Not that it probably matters since King Was the later, and it still produced the Godly sorrow that leads to true repentance!
As has been noted by others, I do not think Peter is a proper example given his denial was before the Spirit came upon him. In fact, Peter’s denial was only possible because unlike the other disciples, he did not totally split the scene and leave Jesus alone. The others are guilty too of their own betrayals, but they too did so before the Spirit was poured out.
And no, pastoral ministry should never be a consideration again. Period. I would fear to stand before the Lord in that day and argue “But I was able to still bless people with my teachings” and have the Lord say something like “Did you expect me to ignore all my children hungry for the word that showed up when you preached after you knew you had no business back in a pulpit. I blessed IN SPITE of you, because it is my word and I love THEM, I did not bless because of you. And I had plenty of other men I would have used to bring my word if you had taken your place and stepped down as you know you should have”
There are three pastors at our church, counting me, and all three of us are united on this belief. No pulpit ministry, ever.
And we all think saying “There but for the grace of God go I” is a total crock when it comes to multiple adulteries against your wife.
I hope that is clear enough.
Scott, of course that is first and foremost and that is part of the full and complete repentance that I’m talking about. My question was in terms of the far off future, and not just bob Coy but any fallen pastor, I just wanted Steve’s thoughts on that.
Thank you Steve, that does make it very clear as a Calvary Chapel pastor how you believe which stands in contrast to how Chuck Smith believed, I wonder if this difference is as prevalent among all the Calvary Chapels as it is between you and Chuck.
Thanks again for your thoughts
I don’t believe that a pastor’s restoration to leadership who does this should even be on the radar screen for years and years, if ever.
What’s scary though is I guarantee you that the crowds would continue to flock to CCFL if Bob Coy returned next week.
Which is really scary…
which stands in contrast to how Chuck Smith believed,
Antonio, don’t equate Chuck’s inconsistent behavior in practice with a core belief that somehow is opposed to what I just wrote. .
I was a ministry student in the room when he said, point blank, if a staff member was caught in adultery he would be fired immediately. And surely you know that a whole lot of CC pastors have been booted forever from CC for adultery too.
I don’t know what purpose Bob Coy’s return would accomplish. The church does not need him – God can call up any number of replacements.
I look at it this way, it’s like playing dodge-ball – he was hit and must sit out. There’s no restoration in dodge-ball.
What’s scarier is that there are pastors in all denominations right now involved in adultery or viewing p*rn, and just haven’t gotten caught yet, or in the past committed sexual immorality of some type and dealt with it before The Lord and feel they’ve been forgiven, and never stepped down from ministry or confessed it before the congregation, and are teaching every Sunday.
What’s scary though is I guarantee you that the crowds would continue to flock to CCFL if Bob Coy returned next week.
Scott, what’s scary to me is that many would flock if he set up a new (non-CC) work down the street, which would almost guarantee the downfall of CCFTL in the process – at least before the updated announcement last Wednesday
Now that CCFTL have told the truth, I believe that number would be a lot less. Good for CCFTL. I hope a new senior pastor arises from their midst (not some outsider rock star coming in) and the church moves forward in the blessing of God.
Steve, I don’t know about all the Calvary Chapel pastors that have been booted out for adultery, but from what Michael has alluded to and others on these posts, there are many Calvary Chapel pastors behind the pulpit today that according to your criteria shouldn’t be, but I am primarily talking about the observable practice or perhaps it was an exception that Chuck made to what you heard him say when you were a ministry student, when he restored David Hocking
Antonio, I was there, at Costa Mesa, during the Hocking thing. I was still there when Hocking then was moved on a couple years later…
I’m sorry I didn’t mean to upset you, I’m just trying to understand, I think what you’re saying and correct me if I’m wrong, and that is that Calvary Chapel’s core belief is that a pastor who commits adultery is to be removed and never again have a pulpit ministry, but that Chuck who found the movement and who you heard him say, that he upheld that core belief, was inconsistent when it came to David Hocking and perhaps others we don’t know about? Or did he just some exceptions?
I think what you’re saying and correct me if I’m wrong, and that is that Calvary Chapel’s core belief is that a pastor who commits adultery is to be removed and never again have a pulpit ministry
That is MY core belief, as to a specific issue. I speak only for myself and on behalf of our local church.
The new association does have a more general statement in the philosophy of ministry section “Integrity and Morality in Leadership” – to which I certainly agree.
Thanks Steve, perhaps things are changing or at least changing from how Chuck practiced them at times or the exceptions he may have made. Or it may be up to each individual Calvary Chapel since they are independent as to how they practice these measures. Your statements have clarified it for me, I appreciate your candor. May the Lord bless your Easter service tomorrow morning and continue to bless your fellowship!
We know that Jesus operated in all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Exemplifying the usage of them to us. One text we see Him using gifts in is while He is addressing the Samaritan woman at the well. He told her of her sin, basically her history of sin. The word of knowledge? Or was it revelation by the Holy Spirit?
The ministry Jesus performed on this earth was guided, directed and energized by the Holy Spirit.
When our Lord Jesus came to this earth to conquer it and redeem it, He functioned only within the framework of the gifts of the Spirit. His total ministry on earth was not as
God, but as a man, functioning in the gifts of the Spirit.
All of the “miracles” Jesus performed were the result of a gift of the Spirit functioning at the time.
Michael is correct, there is no gift of discernment, it is the discernment of Spirits. I should have used the proper term.
Basically discerning of Spirits is the divine ability to see the presence and activity of a spirit that motivates a human being, whether good or bad. This revelation comes to the church through the functioning of the Holy Spirit.
The discerning of spirits gives members of the body of Christ insight into the spirit world, a realm that their five physical senses cannot enter.
The discerning of Spirits has no relationship to that which is natural. It has nothing to do with the realm of the mind.
In Acts 8, a man named Simon looked on with wonder as Peter and John laid their hands on people to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
This man, who was a soothsayer, thought in his heart, “If only I had such power. It would make me a big man among the people. Every man has a price; I’ll persuade these men to sell this power to me.”
So he went to the apostles and said, “I’d like to give you money for that power.” (See Acts 8:18-19)
Peter looked at him and said,
“Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter; for thy heart is not right in the sight of God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.”
Peter operated in the gift of discerning of spirits. Until the intentions of his heart were revealed by the Holy Spirit, no one comprehended them. But Peter was seeing something that could not be seen with the physical eye and he said, “You are in the gall of bitterness, the bond of iniquity.” Simon’s sin was exposed to Peter and he exposed him.
In another passage of scripture we see Paul discerning the evil tendencies of Elymas, the sorcerer:
“Then Saul, (who is called Paul), filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, and said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
Elymas may have looked as normal and natural as anybody, but Paul by the discerning of spirits looked straight through him and told what was in his whole life story.
And of course there is the account of Ananias and Sapphira.
The gift of discerning of spirits is an excellent instrument to clean out the pulpits and pews of America. Many pastors and church leaders today are engaged in activities that are not right and honest and true.
Church members as well are living in sin, doing things totally opposed to the will of God for their lives. Through the discerning of spirits, we can have a holy church without spot or wrinkle.
But are we willing for this gift of the Spirit to function?
As a side note- Chet did my men’s retreat in Wy. Good guy. Sorry he’s been placed with this hardship. Happy Resurrection day tmrw all. It’s the reason we’re all redeemed from stuff like this.
MN#175, what you have experience at is running an online walk-in clinic to help the people of God deal with the reality of flawed leadership.
And nobody does it better.
Thank you, Antonio. Blessings to you as well.
We are a motley crew that God would entrust us with this message of reconciliation, I think the angels just look down and scratch their heads amazed that God would even use us! To Him be the glory! May many souls be added to the kingdom tomorrow!
Steve, your comments about the Coy situation are good ones IMO and it’s good that you are speaking to those issues publicly as a CC pastor affiliate/associate.
I believe, the measure of the grace upon Bob’s life will be a key factor. On whether or not Bob is restored back into ministry. Because God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble. Kathryn Kuhlman’s ministry, in the early 60’s ended, when she married, another minister who was married that left his wife and 3 kids. It was only when she repented and turned to Jesus alone as her only help. That God decided to restore her, and as a bonus, placed an authentic gift of healing miracles on her life. She obviously moved the heart of God.
Concerning David Hocking, I was at the CC Midwest Pastor’s conference right after he sinned. Chuck was there and Hocking spoke to the Pastors several times. I believe that was leadership. and it was too soon for any restoration process. CS said he was “too great a talent” to not be used. This was March or April ’93 and he fell in October ’92. I guess you could say he was restored, but I was uncomfortable with him.
I was sorta discouraged, but the young Pastors for the most part loved Jesus. There were a few Wimberlites there, but they didn’t cause problems.
Erik – KK was also the one who got Benny Hinn into the ministry and he claimed he got a double portion of her spirit.
“Now, the church in FTL is to be commended for eliminating the vagueness with the truth.”
Commended or damage control (meaning no choice)?
They had the information at the first message Chet gave, but it was only because of these blogs and social media that what they thought they could get away with, they ultimately couldn’t. Everything is contrived. The control of the sheep is unbelievable at that place.
If they told the crowd to get down prostrate with their faces on the dirty carpet, they would do it without question. Manipulation is the method at that place.
David Hocking has a great CD on the “emergent (emerging) church”
It was around the mid 2000’s (tried to find it for the date but I actually need to clear out my CD stash!), when some of the emergent were working their way into the CC’s by method of the book stores. (Rob Bell was a BC favorite)
Some of us with discernment urged him to get the books out of the store as it would negatively affect the kids buying it. Finally he made a comment from the pulpit that they are not going emergent. (and the books were taken out). That is after he condemned and shunned the messenger of the info (Once again)
“Now, the church in FTL is to be commended for eliminating the vagueness with the truth.”
They are the ones who CREATED the” vagueness” in he first place!!
Michael put out that information, also Alex! They knew it. They just thought they could take the “sting” out.
Either that or they were giving people time to process it all.
Regardless, there was no VAGUENESS other than what they said.
You could almost call it a lie, couldn’t you.
That is, if we want to be Biblically correct.
-a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood. Synonyms: prevarication, falsification. Antonyms: truth.
-something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
-an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood.
-to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive. Synonyms: prevaricate, fib.
-to express what is false; convey a false impression.
By their hesitation they caused more sin. The members of the church slandered, name called and accused other christians. This is the fruit of CCFTl leadership.. They hid the truth, but the truth of what that church is about. Lies, hate, coverups and attacks without thinking.
Great job CC
Are you going to an “easter” service today?
Going to Boca to a church where we highly respected the Pastor (but of course the Pastor was too tough on sin), and he’s now in NC They say it was his choice but I wonder.
If you have one to recommend, please do.
I agree with #201.
Mr. Coy may be thinking this is the worst Easter Sunday of his life but if he truly repents (makes a 180 degree turn) he may eventually come to see this as the best Easter Sunday of his life.
May it be so.
Amen to Xenia’s 243.
I’m late to the party as usual. God is able to nudge sinning pastors. I know that God gave BC at least one nudge to get right. Maybe many.
Let me tell you a short story. My wife and I had just left a small church we had been involved with for 7 years because I had a problem with the pastor I couldn’t resolve. I went church hopping and found a church I liked. I asked the pastor there if I had a personal problem with him could I talk to him about it? I asked him if (paraphrased) he was accountable and responsive to someone like me. He said yes, he would happily talk to someone who had a personal problem with him. He said a pastor is a shepherd and must be there for his congregation. About a year later he was outed for an ‘indiscretion’ that happened around the time I arrived. Without me knowing it, God spoke to this pastor through my questions.
It sounds from these posts like most people including Steve Wright a pastor from CC, would never have BC return to the pastorate, it sounds like 99.9 percent in fact.
But in all the protestations against him ever coming back I don’t think I heard once anyone ever back it up with scripture and whenever anyone else brought up the possibility of the Apostle Peter or King David, they were quickly dismissed by saying that either David was a King and not a pastor or Peter hadn’t yet been filled with God’s Spirit, but wasn’t the king of Israel a shepherd to God’s people, and yet God did not remove David entirely as he did Saul, though David did suffer terrible consequences
And does being filled with God’s Spirit as they say Peter was not yet filled, mean that one never would sin or fall into sexual sin? I can guarantee you that many that condemn BC and write him off forever have viewed and been affected by this insidious and addictive plague of pornography, even though they claim to be filled with God’s Spirit.
If BC should return some day there are those who will say, he should not be preaching or teaching, stay away from him, but my question is can we say unequivocally and with all certainty that God cannot restore him, that God cannot say, “do not call unclean what I have cleansed,” that God cannot say, “and when you are restored you will once again feed my sheep!
What preachers or teachers of God’s word had faultered and sinned sexually in their past that were restored and served God again mightily, more than you might realize. Some posters on PP have even alluded to CS having also fallen in this way in his youth, supposing this was true, and he had stepped down to never return to ministry, than we never would have had the CC movement with the many blessings that it has brought to the world, from contemporary christian music to worship to expository teaching to helping the unchurched feel at home without the rituals and the stuffiness of mainline denominations that emphasized the outward appearance rather than the heart, for all it’s problems CS through CC was used greatly to change the landscape of evangelicalism in the late 20th and 21st century, so I think in this I would be with Chuck who would say, do not discount him entirely, but let’s see if God may restore him as a vessel for the master’s use!
Antonio, couldn’t BC be a vessel of the “master’s use” as a janitor, office manager, truck driver, landscaper or even a septic tank cleaner? Why do so many like you attach restoration to the pulpit for someone like BC as necessary? 99.99% of us serve God every day and are vessels of the “master’s use” in our vocations without ever standing on a stage behind a pulpit.
Yes he could Scott, but my question is couldn’t he also be restored as a pastor and preacher of the Gospel stronger than before, learning from his fall and failure, or do we limit and restrict God’s power and ability to put BC wherever he wants including the pulpit if He should so choose!
I’m sorry if I’m out of place stepping into this conversation, but you said this:
“couldn’t he also be restored as a pastor and preacher of the Gospel stronger than before, learning from his fall and failure, or do we limit and restrict God’s power and ability to put BC wherever he wants including the pulpit”
You are actually mentioning several points and I’d like to address them.
1. Restored as a pastor?
A. No, the qualifications of leadership are quite clear in the scriptures. They are mirrored in both the OT and the NT and basically require a man to have one wife and be above reproach. BC has failed this qualification.
2. Restored to teach. Maybe, but restoration includes restitution and asking forgiveness of those whom he wronged. So far he is silent to the people of his charge whom he has wronged. But, he can teach in my opinion.
3. Are we limiting God to put BC wherever He wants? No because it was God who set these rules and be assured this, God is not capricious and will not be mocked.
4. The pulpit is nothing more than a podium from which to speak. It does have a layer of respect and admiration given to those who are allowed to stand there and address God’s people. So far my number 2 say he has not been restored to a point where he may stand there.
Ok, again forgive me if I have intruded in your conversation.
#2 He can teach after he has completed asking forgiveness and restitution.
I noticed I didn’t make myself clear.
Antonio, do you believe it’s also possible that God could say no to BC ever returning to public pastoral ministry?
Yes I do, but I also believe He could restore him back, in other words I am not taking away that possibility either as many here have.
Antonio, I think I understand what you are thinking but let me ask you this. Wouldn’t a red flag go up if a pastor who has disqualified himself actually even wanted to go back to the pulpit? I know of 2 pastor’s who were disqualified and refused to stay away. Both of these are CC guys and one is barely hanging on. The other is an assistant for a big name guy in So Cal. What’s interesting to me is that both of these guys have always been very prideful.
I guess my point is that if a pastor has disqualified himself, one has to wonder why they would go back. Can God restore a fallen pastor? Of course He can but it must be God’s Hand and not man’s pride. Just my .02
I agree with you Scott, thank you for your openness and at least acknowledging the possibility of what our God is able to do, for we are the sheep of his pasture, and he is the great Shepherd who puts whomever He wants wherever he wants!
Sorry that was addressed to Covered
You’re not intruding Bob, I for one welcome your thoughts, so “the husband of one wife” and “beyond reproach” are the two things you mention as disqualifying him from ever returning to a pastoral ministry. So let me ask you, “husband of one wife,” does that mean it has to be a man who has never been divorced? Do you make a distinction before and after being a Christian? The scriptures don’t seem to, though we could perhaps say it is inferred…”
And what if they get divorced and he stays single, he would have only had one wife. Others interpret this verse as a man who did not have more than one wife at a time i.e., he wasn’t practicing polygamy as many pagans were at the time. Others say it should be translated as a “one woman man” i.e., not a womanizer, but now in our hypothetical Bob has repented is no longer a womanizer.
If we take that verse to mean divorce, I don’t know if they’re getting divorced or not, so let’s say for the sake of argument, God heals their marriage and they remain together, and of his previous indiscretions he has been forgiven, and we are taught that when we are “forgiven” it is removed as far as the east is from the west, so now, and we’re talking years later, not tomorrow or next week, he has submitted to the Lord’s discipline, has been humbled and remained, as someone mentioned “a septic tank cleaner” or wherever you want to put him, he has made restitution with those he harmed, and we don’t know what goes on behind close doors as he approaches these women asking for forgiveness or whatever he has to do (and up to the present moment the women have remained annonymous perhaps to spare them embarrassment, perhaps they even have been married, and I have to tell you, and maybe it’s my flesh, that if that’s the case, even I would have a difficult time with the possibility of him ever coming back, as I write it seems that the more egregious the sexual sin the more difficult or unlikely ever coming back, but that’s just me, for instance, and I’m not saying this is the case with BC here, but pedophelia I would say: never
So I guess we all draw our own criteria depending on the sin, ok now back to BC, years now have gone by, his marriage is strong now, he finished raising his kids, he’s been working as a janitor at a church maintained a good testimony beyond reproach, and here’s the question; could God call him back to pastor a church, would this be a testimony of God’s redeeming power and a witness to the world! Or in your opinion would he always be a reproach?
Thanks for your thoughts Bob, sorry if it’s a bit convoluted in how I phrased it.
Antonio, you’ve used the expression (and similar ones) “God call him back to pastor a church”
How would that show itself, practically, in your opinion? What constitutes one knowing that GOD has called someone back to the pastorate?
Well Steve, how is that manifested in the first place? The gift to teach and preach has to be there, which obviously was in BC’s case, and does not God’s word say “his gift and calling are without repentance,” so that doesn’t go away from what I understand. Secondly would be the witness and testimony to the believer and the world, so if people receive him back and the world (because in Bob’s case, his ministry became a witness to the whole world) can accept him and recognize that, yes he fell, but look at his life now, there’s a true genuine repentance and a consistently maintained testimony) and they can see him as beyond reproach, because what does that mean, to me “beyond reproach” means that no one can bring an accusation against you, it doesn’t mean you’ve never sinned, but that you have dealt with your sin). Also something to note, that hasn’t been mentioned and that is; his board’s decision, which we don’t know what that is as far as what their sanctions or discipline that they’ve decided for Bob is, though from Chet’s statement it seems like they don’t know either when he said, “is Bob coming back?” And he answered in his message by saying “I don’t know,” so it seems like the possibility is left open, but even in David Hawkins situation his board had decided certain sanctions, which i don’t know what they were, but Chuck circumvented that and brought David in to CCCM, upsetting that board and many in that church since David started teaching at CCCM which was just a few miles from where DH had been pastoring, but this is what Chuck felt led to do. So it seems to me, to answer your question, that there isn’t a general consensus even among CCs as a previous poster mentions he knew of a FP(fallen pastor) who was now the assistant at a large South Cal CC, so I pose this question because what Chuck did with David H, is very possible another church might do or CCFL might even do themselves, and that is bring Bob back after whatever sanctions and time out they decide to mete out, so I think the real question is; would you be able to accept BC again one day as a fellow pastor, or a pastor in general if you’re a Christian in the body of Christ, I myself would be able to.
And for myself I’ll tell you why, here is a pastor who has struggled with things that I am tempted with and struggle with and yet he worked it out and he came out of it stronger and victorious and can understand, and can now help others in these areas as so mine who’s been through it.
“….as someone who’s been through it” (I meant to say)
The gift to teach and preach has to be there,
Being a pastor is far, far more than this…at least in God’s sight, even if not always in evangelicalism USA.
But go back to my question. And I think it is best to avoid the personal examples and speak to the principle because it is the principle that is crucial.
How does a man become a pastor of a church. There are multiple ways you know. However, do all of these ways equate to a restoration, stamp of approval from God?
If a man sets up shop a couple years later, starting his own new work, and eventually some decent crowds start to come (likely in part of people who have no idea of the pastor’s past), they all talk about how great the teaching is etc. Is that all that is needed to say God has restored the man? Because, if that is the litmus test, why wait a couple years? Why not set up that shop tomorrow. Where is the Scripture that 2 years, 5 years, 6 months, 2 weeks is the penalty box for pastoral adulteries?
The problem today is that if a pastor kills somebody, or embezzles the money, he is tried and sentenced to jail. Hypothetical discussions of restoration do not even apply. However, in our over-sexed, anything goes culture, where all this stuff is legal (or at least not prosecuted) then its a matter of days before discussion about restoration arrives.
Some of us hope the Church might have higher standards than the world.
Earlier a Scripture was asked for. 1 Cor 9:27 seems pretty clear to me.
But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
I understand what you’re saying but I think personal examples are important because they set presedents, and that’s why I bring up Chuck and DH, it seems to me that that’s a perfect example of someone who was disqualified and restored, and just like Bob Coy he was just as well known, so in two years or three or as in David Hawkins 6 months, I don’t know what that time is, and as far as men like BC and DH I don’t think there’s anyone who doesn’t know who they are or what they did, so it’s the attendees who are making that decision for themselves, to ask is he restored, do I want to attend here and be under his ministry or even listen to his teaching? In DH’s situation the answer has been yes and it is attested to by the many CCs who have him as a guest speaker, and in time that may be the case with BC as well, and as I said, I for one would be able to receive him as a teacher, precisely because of what he’s been through and because God has demonstrated his power to save and restore from the guttermost to the uttermost, and I’m probably in the minority, but that may be one reason God may restore him, for that minority.
As far as the verse you quote, does that verse unequivocally mean a disqualification for life as you seem to want to indicate? but others as CS demonstrated with the successful restoration of DH (though his ministry may never be what it once was) I would say, yes it’s possible, for with God all things are possible!
Antonio, I am not going to talk specifics about the Hocking example. I was there. You clearly know little considering your insistence on comparing him to the Coy situation. Likewise, since I was there, I assure you many people had no clue about the church discipline and restoration issues going on at the time – this was before the internet you know. You can doubt me on that, but I know I didn’t, nor did a few dozen of my friends either – not for a couple years .
I will say, Hocking has not been a pastor of a church since 1992. Was he on staff for a couple years at CCCM. Yeah. Was he even used in the pulpit when Chuck was gone? Yeah. But his own bio on his own website says as much. He pastored three churches. Period.
Being a guest speaker, invited to churches (CC or otherwise), holding conferences, selling CDs and books, is NOT the same as being a pastor.
And the word, disqualified, was used to describe money that did not pass the test. The money was not restored into circulation after enough time had passed. So yeah, I’ll take Paul for his most obvious meaning and not assume he was simply saying “lest I be put in the penalty box for six months”
And by the way I agree with you pastoring is much more than teaching and drawing the crowds, and by that definition not only CC’s that swell to the thousands or any Mega church for that matter, the people that attend there, they don’t really have the senior pastor as their pastor, who in most cases is like a CEO, and really is not there for you when you need him, he’s too busy of course, it will always be one of the assistants, so when I attended Harvest, Greg really wasn’t my pastor, he never came over to my house, never visited me in the hospital, never talked to my kid who needed help, it was about 5 different assistants, even when I went to CMCC Chuck never really was my pastor, if by your own definition I.e., it’s more than teaching and drawing the crowds, which as I said I agree with you. So if BC is ever restored, he actually might become a real pastor, visiting the sick, those in prison, clothing those who are cold and those who are hungry!
Here is the meanings for this Greek word in 1 Cor 9:27 “adokimos,” which is translated as “castaway” in the KJV
Outline of Biblical Usage:
not standing the test, not approved
properly used of metals and coins
that which does not prove itself such as it ought
unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate
KJV Translation Count:
8 Total reprobate 6, castaway 1, rejected 1
It is used as reprobate six times, that’s more than any other usage, so if we take that meaning for a preacher who disqualifies himself because of adultery (which is not mentioned in the chapter, you are bringing that in) and he becomes a reprobate then that would mean if you want to take that meaning that he is lost beyond salvation not just beyond restoration but beyond salvation, and I don’t think anyone is arguing that BC is lost beyond salvation.
So I believe the verb used explains the meaning.
The previous verb used before “reprobate” is “should become”
Here are the renderings for that verb
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
of men appearing in public
to be made, finished
of miracles, to be performed, wrought
to become, be made
So when it comes to a believer or preacher in this case if we believe he’s still saved, and not a reprobate, then it would have to be the rendering “he begins to be” “a reprobate” or on “his way to becoming a reprobate”
so the context of how the word is used is of someone who is on the way to become a reprobate, that is lost beyond salvation!
And so as the KJV and other translations translate it, I believe gives it a clearer meaning, which is rendered as “Castaway,” and someone who is a castaway can be rescued of the rocks or island where he has shipwrecked.
And Steve as far as the David Hawkin situation, you’re right there was no internet, but the information was readily available in the Orange County Register who was reporting on it from day one, but at least by your own admission DH has been restored to guest speaking, teaching and you forgot a radio ministry, so it would seem that at least you’re willing to concede that this could be a possibility for a RFP(restored fallen pastor). At least we agree partly.
Thank you again for your thoughts
I think once you start putting words in my mouth and telling me what the Greek really means, then we are about done here…..
Steve I’m sorry, never meant to put words in your mouth I merely brought out the full Greek meanings of not only the word “adokimos” but what seemed to me to be the context, as I mentioned I didn’t see in the whole chapter the specific sins that Paul mentions with adultery being one that disqualifies an FP for life, if I missed it please tell me, and if I’m wrong as far as this word meaning; reprobate, and the whole context meaning “on the way to becoming a reprobate” and that the KJV translates it as “shipwrecked” as a better translation, then please show me where I’m wrong, but I don’t see how you say I put words in your mouth, unless it’s about my second post which maybe I misunderstood, I thought you were saying that DH was restored not to pastoral ministry but to guest speaking and teaching, I added radio ministry, I’m sorry maybe that’s what you’re referring to, I didn’t mean to imply that you said that, I said that from what I read on David Hawkin’s web site. All I said is that at least this gives hope to FPs of perhaps being able to teach God’s word again someday. Again sorry for the misunderstanding, The Lord bless you as you continue to serve him.
Pastor Steve if I may request some information, I dont speak Greek, I think the best all around greek scholar I have seen concerning the evangelical / reformed view in America it would be Dr. James White. He seems to put it into basic terms we can understand it, on the Dividing line he actually went through the greek step by step and even a heathen like me understand what he was saying. Of course I somewhat he disagree with Dr. White. No, I totally disagree with Dr. White but it is not on biblical grounds, he has me beat on that one. But I think you would disagree with some of Dr. White’s views, actually all of them but it was not do to his due diligence. The man is a reading machine while he rides his bike, I respect that he at least reads / listens to the “opposition”.
I would disagree that I am the opposition, we reside on the same planet and we are in this together and that is basic. I am not putting any words in your mouth, I lack that spiritual gift. But seriously we live in the modern 21 century and we have the TofE and the age of the Earth, and many other such issues. The Jesuit conspiracy aspect does not cut it neither does the romans one aspect. The Tof E provides robust evidence from many scientific disciplines that supports its validity.
Look I would chuck all of this, all I want is peace with God, but from what I have learned from almost day one, that is an unreasonable expectation. I agree it is. That is a rather silly rant but I am going off where I am. Hope you get my point. Thanks, hope you and yours had a good Easter.
Let me catch up and I notice since you seem bent on seeing BC “restored” to a pastoral leadership position I think we won’t get far.
First thing is this statement quoting scripture, “and does not God’s word say “his gift and calling are without repentance,”
My best comment is this, you have taken this out of its context. Basically this statement, in context, is made about the positions, not the man. A cursory breeze through scripture, would indicate to even the casual reader that men are often removed and not restored to their position of leadership and yet the position remains.
Second you asked me about “one wife” and how it is interpreted.
I used to pastor with a denomination who was hard core about a man must never have been divorced and remarried in his life. That was modified at one time to divorced and not remarried and eventually, where it now stands, a man can be divorced and remarried as long as it was prior to his conversion.
The point is this large denomination recognizes the need to be above reproach in the pastoral position. However, it does recognize and allow those who are divorced to hold other valuable positions of trust and teaching, just not the Elder or Pastoral ones of a church community.
Now I am also sure many churches in this denomination violate the denomination’s position at the local level under the senior pastor. Of course that is not a proof text to validate such actions.
Basically Antonio, love BC, let him live outside CCFTL until he repents, asks forgiveness and makes restitution and then who knows what God has in-store for the charisma personality of this man.
One side note, having charisma and the ability to teach does not necessarily mean a person does God’s will or is even called to teach His people.
Why do you insist on studying James White and using him for your whipping boy…when scholars from a group like the BioLogos Foundation are in sympathy with your views and with orthodox Christianity?
It would seem to me that if you were seeking thoughtful discussion and peace with like minded brethren it’s available to you.
“Basically Antonio, love BC, let him live outside CCFTL until he repents, asks forgiveness and makes restitution and then who knows what God has in-store for the charisma personality of this man.”
Good morning Bob, I agree with you on much of what you say, the point I was making in my previous posts and that I was addressing to Steve and that you yourself touch upon is 1. that there isn’t a hard and fast rule that all denominations agree upon when it comes to adultery as disqualifying a fallen pastor for life, this is evident in the Calvary Chapel denomination which is where BC belonged, you yourself said “who knows what God may have in store for him,” so it doesn’t seem to me that you are completely discounting the possibility either, my other Point was that I didn’t see 1 Cor 9 making the case as Steve was trying to use it to mean that it was in the case of adultery, which is nowhere mentioned in the chapter nor is any other specific sin for that matter, so it’s something you have to bring into the text. With all that said, am I saying that BC has to be brought back into a pastoral ministry or a teaching ministry like DH? NO he doesn’t, that’s not what I’m saying, does the possibility exist that that could happen someday, that he could be restored to a teaching or pastoral ministry? I said from scripture and from the practice in the Calvary Chapel nondenominational denomination and even from CCFL’s own statement, I said YES, that seems to be the case to me from what I read in scripture and from what I see in practice and from what I know of God’s power to forgive and restore.
This thread is getting very long, so it is probably not in the best interest to stretch it out more. Michael has mentioned the ideas you are bringing up in his latest “things.”
However, before the thread dies I will answer with some of my opinions.
I believe nothing in the NT letters can be interpreted on their own or as if they were written outside of the OT instructions. I often call Paul, “the great Torah teacher to the Gentiles,” because so many of his teaching are right out of his Pharisaic school of thought, but written with non-Jewish people who love Jesus in mind.
Such is the topic of adultery. At it’s harshest point it required death of the participants, but the real question is why would such a requirement have been laid out in the Torah? It was also such a hot topic the experts challenged Jesus about His interpretation of divorce and eventually adultery from the Torah.
My belief is the core reason it is an epic hot topic is the effect it has on all aspects of family, community and culture. In my opinion the requirement for leaders to live by the standards isn’t about their personal salvation, it is about the people they serve in their positions. How can a habitually immoral living man who brings pain suffering and destruction to the fabric of community lead lead them to God? He can’t.
Of course I agree the man who is caught in such manners isn’t necessarily lost nor is he disqualified from all positions in the community of faith. It all depends on how the man, and in this case BC, deals with his transactions against others. But I believe in the case of BC and others like him the highest position of leadership, Pastor in the case of CC, is permanently over and unavailable to him personally.
That’s about all I have for you in the matter, and while I find BC problematic, I certainly hope and pray he can deal with the real issues which caused him to bring pain and suffering to his community of faith.
Very well we part agreeing to disagree agreeably. On the statement you made about a “habitually immoral living man” I agree with you, if he is continuing to habitually practice immorality then that’s one thing but we were talking about a repentant servant…in any case we part by you giving your opinion which I respect and your appeal to the Torah, I by my observation of CC practice established by it’s founder Chuck Smith and appealing to the mighty hand of God to raise from the ashes that which has otherwise been discarded like the phoenix for which this site is named. Take care and may The Lord bless you!
New lead pastor named at Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale:
People were speculating that the new senior pastor would be or have to be a big name to keep the cash cow solvent. This doesn’t seem to fit the bill! 🙂 Praying nothing but good things for CCFL as they move forward.
I listened to the message and simply not impressed. This is young man who has an agenda, God wants to do “new things”. Interpretation: Let’s move on, stop discussing, we don’t want to dwell on it. I will use the analogy, he used, “Bride of Christ”. I personally was married and my wife committed adultery. For anyone Man that has gone thru this experience (BTW As a Pastor I counseled many people not knowing I had NO CLUE of what they were going thru). Anyway, there are 2 parts to surviving Adultery. 1. Forgiving the offending spouse as we are commanded too. 2. Working through the Pain and SHOCK that is MUCH worse than imagined. IMHO this Church should be exhorted to forgive but given time (it took me a year and still feel the pain) to heal from what happened to them. In my experience, it is more than a “betrayal of trust”, you feel “abandoned”. And you will forgive much sooner than you will be healed. Throw into the mix, their Pastor was a RockStar, and these poor people have been rocked to the core. A Pastor, smiling from ear to ear, saying things like “Jesus is our Pastor”, does not remove the pain of betrayal and abandonment they are attempting to process. I say this respectfully. I don’t believe anybody experiencing adultery (keeping with his theme of Bride of Christ) would talk this way to their bride. It just doesn’t come across as sincere. It sounds rehearsed, like someone trying to impress. I know I can’t “judge his motive”. But if my wife had spoken to me this way, I would think she was nuts. When your in the midst of such emotional turmoil. Empathy and discussing what happened is part of the healing process. My wife and I (I chose to leave after MUCH time) talked and cried for months. If empathy is the healing balm for such a situation, it didn’t come across in this message. I can’t help but wonder, why not more focus on just talking like you would normally and giving a consistent message “we understand how YOU feel”. These poor people are in the midst of a terrible storm. It will take years for some of them to fully recover. Deal with it openly, sincerely, and honestly. Stop trying to “impress them with your delivery”.
“cydia vpn” is
SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM
SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM