Dave Rolph On the Calvary Chapel Split
Pastor Dave Rolph just released this statement on the matter on Facebook.
“I have resisted making public comments about the recent CCA/CCCM split, partly because I’ve been trying to think it through thoroughly and partly because I don’t think my opinion is all that significant in the overall scheme of things. I have talked with people on both sides of the issue, including those who are on the CCA council, and I have addressed some of my personal concerns in private letters to some of them. Ultimately I decided to just publish some general comments and perspectives so that I can stop the avalanche of questions I am getting about this matter.
First of all, the split was a tragedy. Perhaps it was a necessary tragedy, but it was a tragedy just the same. There are men on both sides who are very special to me and I hate this public division.
There has been a lot of talk about unity but for me unity is only impressive when it contains diversity. A unity that comes through division and exclusion isn’t really unity at all. In Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, in chapter 12, he makes it clear that God intended His Church to be a unity with a lot of interesting diversity. And that is what impressed anyone who came to Calvary Chapel in the 70’s, when I first started to minister there. It wasn’t just a tent full of hippies. It was “long hairs, short hairs, some coats and ties.” It was police officers like Hal Fischer, firefighters like Ken Mitchell, business executives like Chuck Missler, and crazy hippies like Lonnie Frisbee. And it was led by a middle aged bald guy. The Calvary Chapel movement was always the same. As other churches started we had Mike MacIntosh who had a huge vision for missions, Greg Laurie who was an evangelist and heir apparent to Billy Graham, Tom Stipe who had a passion for worship, Don McClure who called us to holiness as he was influenced by Alan Redpath. Later there were guys who were more drawn to apologetics or creation or eschatology or politics. But within this diversity, we were all held more or less together by our love and respect for Chuck Smith. The reason Chuck was able to hold this motley crew together is because he didn’t let diversity trip him up. Frankly, the Calvary Chapel fellowship of churches hung together largely because of Chuck’s capacity to put up with extremists, radicals, and a various assortment of crazy people. If we purge all the crazies from Calvary Chapel, and organize and structure the whole thing, it will no longer be Calvary Chapel. Unity without diversity will suffocate what once was a powerful work of the Spirit, where the lunatics like us had been allowed to run the asylum.
I hesitate to even use the words “Calvary Chapel Movement.” In the 60’s and 70’s there was a Jesus Movement. It sprung up almost simultaneously all over the country and several places around the world. Calvary Chapel was a church that participated in the Jesus Movement. I’m not sure when people transitioned from talking about the Jesus Movement and instead talking about the Calvary Chapel Movement but there was a sad day in there somewhere. In the early days it was never about Calvary Chapel as opposed to the rest of the church. Chuck worked with people from various different denominations. Calvary loaned money to missions groups like Wycliffe Bible Translators and Missionary Aviation Fellowship. He was friends with Bill Bright and supported Campus Crusade. He was also friends with Chuck Swindoll, John MacArthur, Billy Graham, Francis Schaefer and others. He even had Corrie Ten Boom, a Dutch Reformed Calvinist woman preach from the pulpit of Calvary Chapel several times. The point is, during the times when God blessed Calvary Chapel in the greatest way, Calvary Chapel was a part of the larger Church of Jesus Christ. It wasn’t a sell-contained “Movement.” History will show that the more exclusive our church (and churches) became, there was a pronounced decline in the influences of our ministries. So in my opinion, a move toward exclusivity will be a move toward obscurity.
I understand that some people within CCA see the Calvary Chapel Association as being the successors, chosen by Chuck Smith, to all that is Calvary Chapel in the future. I understand that because Chuck allowed a letter to be published that seemed to endorse that concept, and he made certain statements to that effect. However, Pastor Chuck also made numerous private statements concerning his lack of respect for CCA, to me and many others, and on several occasions he told me that he was going to pull out of CCA and “we will start our own thing.” Chuck never saw the group of CC churches as the big deal that others seem to think. He told me many times, “Dave, we have one church! Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa!” And maybe it sounds strange, since I am the Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Pacific Hills, but I still consider Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa to be my home church. I consider CCPH to be a part of, and an outreach of, Costa Mesa. I’m sure it is different for pastors who have never been personally associated with CCCM but I worked as a pastor there for 25 years, taught there for 30 years, and remained in regular personal contact with Chuck Smith for the greater part of 40 years. His church will always be my church, no matter what.
For me, the idea of there being a Calvary Chapel Association that doesn’t include the original Calvary Chapel is ludicrous. CCCM even owns the name that CCA uses, as well as the dove. Some of the CCA guys feel that Brian is starting an association that is a subset of CCA. In my view, every church that calls itself “Calvary Chapel” is a subset of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. For CCA to attempt to get CCCM to submit to CCA the tail is wagging the dog.
I understand why many of the Calvary Chapel churches don’t want to submit to Brian. While Chuck ultimately handed CCCM off to Brian’s leadership, he did send conflicting messages concerning whether or not he really wanted that to happen. Conflicting messages were a constant thing with Chuck, and anyone who knew him knows that. But you have to ultimately go by what he did in the end, which was turn the church and all of its assets over to Brian’s stewardship. But the thing is, no one has to submit to Brian. Brian isn’t even asking anyone to submit to him. He is simply unwilling to submit to others, as was his father-in-law.
All of this illustrates why independence is so importance as we move into the future. The Lord works in mysterious ways. As Jesus said to Nicodemus, “The Holy Spirit is like the wind. You never know where He’s coming from or where He’s going but you’ll hear Him as He moves.” Calvary Chapel experienced an incredible move of the Holy Spirit, as a small group of people, led by one man, allowed the rules to be broken, and submitted to no one but the Holy Spirit. At the time Chuck was accused of arrogance, and of not being a team player. The team players and rule keepers missed the revival, and they always do. If you were going to come up with a revised list of Calvary Distinctives, I’d put independence somewhere near the top of the list. To see a Calvary Chapel pastor be criticized for having an independent spirit is incredibly ironic.
The messages that have gone out from CCA have stated that the role of CCA is to maintain the affiliation process, have a helpful webpage, put on conferences and publish various teachings. So far, after 3+ years, not much of that has happened. The CCA webpage and affiliation process is a confusing mess. They haven’t conducted a single conference. And the only things they’ve published, to my recollection, are the recent succession of emails about Brian, and a few short notices concerning how to help with some natural disasters. On the other hand, Brian has an amazing website at calvarychapel.com, with a great church database and lots of articles written by Calvary Chapel pastors, including many written by CCA board members. He has a constant presence on social media, which is so critical nowadays. And he has put on a large pastor’s conference every year, in addition to missions conferences, youth worker conferences, worship leader conferences, and scores of other conferences all over the world. And Brian was doing all this long before there even was a CCA. If CCA really wants to lead they might want to start by doing all the stuff that he is doing, at least as well as he does.
When Brian put out his announcement about Calvary Chapel Global Network he made it clear that he’d be happy for pastors to be associated with CC Global and with CCA. I thought he was very gracious toward CCA. On the other hand, CCA made a series of attacking statements directed toward Brian, and made it pretty clear that they don’t want their affiliates associating with CC Global. That says a lot to me.
Throughout my years with Calvary Chapel I saw Pastor Chuck say and do some dumb stuff. But I remained associated with him. And I said and did a lot of dumb stuff, and he remained associated with me. (We could be furious with each other at different times, but we remained connected.) I think CCA has said and done some dumb stuff recently. But they are still my family. And I’ve also seen Brian say and do some dumb stuff. But he is still my brother. I wish that Calvary Chapel Association could’ve avoided this split. I wish they hadn’t been offended by Brian’s independence and I wish he wouldn’t have left and I wish they wouldn’t have attacked him after he left. But what’s done is done, and we need to move forward.
I had the privilege of growing up in a church environment that was crazy, independent and radical. It was messy and disruptive. It was anti-establishment and always walking a fine edge, and falling off regularly. That was Calvary Chapel. And the Spirit blew everywhere, and an old man let it happen. Brian and Cheryl Brodersen’s oldest daughter, when she was probably 3 years old, used to say to Pastor Chuck, “Grandpa, you are a non-capormous!” (She couldn’t pronounce “non-conformist, although she knew what it meant” so “non-capormous” was the best she could do. And Chuck was so proud that his granddaughter saw him as a non-conformist. He was one to his very soul. And that’s what he taught us, if we were listening. I am an old man now but I pray that I never lose that radical, messy, independent, non-conformist spirit I got from Chuck and Calvary Chapel. There is an old saying in history that the first thing revolutionaries do when they come into power is kill all the revolutionaries. If we aren’t careful we may snuff the flame of the next revolution of the Spirit before it happens. Let’s never lose our radical spirit.”
Let me be clear about one thing.
Dave Rolph was not a source for anything I’ve written on this subject for the last three years.
The fact that this statement confirms much of what I have written simply confirms that my sources were accurate and truthful as well.
Dave wrote, ” I’m sure it is different for pastors who have never been personally associated with CCCM but I worked as a pastor there for 25 years, taught there for 30 years,”
A consistent theme of my comments on this topic at this blog has been the reality for those who actually worshipped and served at Costa Mesa under Pastor Chuck (whether on staff or volunteer) and those who did not, no matter how well they knew him as a father figure. Dave’s letter in the macrocosm with his tremendous experience I hope affirms my comments in the microcosm (or maybe, I hope I affirm him)
I was only there for 8 years, served in a variety of ways but never on staff, and came after the hippies had cut their hair, but I amen what Dave has written here. I was a college educated, business executive who was on top of the world (from the world’s perspective) and already have a great father and Costa Mesa was my home and Chuck was my pastor too. The unity in diversity part of this letter, and that unity created by exclusion and division is not real unity, really hits the mark.
A definite mic drop. Fantastic, clear, complete statement!
Brilliant ant throughful. Thanks for taking the time to chew on it all and write this up. Thanks, Dave.
Dave Rolph’s comments resonate with my experience of CCCM as well. I attended CCCM for about 5 years in the mid-nineties; their Bible College for a year; and was going to attend their school of ministry, but ended up heading another direction. When I attended CCCM I literally was there 4 or 5 days a week; so I became saturated in its culture, and became acquainted with some of Chuck’s “inside” people (one in particular who’s still there). All I can say is that what I see Brian doing is totally in the ‘spirit’ of what Chuck was about, and what probably drew me to CCCM in the first place. I agree with Rolph, and have said before that CCCM *is* CC. The ones who have now alienated themselves, ironically, from CC is the CCA. I didn’t even know of the CCA until a few years ago. When I found out about it I just smiled to myself; it confirmed what most everyone knew already: CC was and has been a denomination for years. But I sensed, in spite of that that the spirit of CCCM remained at odds with that institutionalizing effect; and this is why I see Brodersen’s move more in line with the “old way” and ironically the CCA as out of step with the venture of faith Chuck stepped into so many years ago. I think Brodersen has his finger on the pulse much more closely than do the CCA, and I just see him as trying to continue on in the flow of what took off in the 60s with Chuck. Brian is trying to stay true to the spirit that he observed in the philosophy of Chuck, ironically; and the CCA, in my view looks like the institutional and denominational rubric that Chuck kicked against in the first place. The irony is thick and sad! I’m no longer CC, but as I look at what’s going on currently it saddens me.
Wow! This is very well-written, balanced, and insightful. The thing he said that really surprised me was when he said that CHUCK even after starting the CCA was talking about pulling out of it and doing their own thing. Not Brian saying that, but Chuck. That had to have been not long after starting the CCA that he supposedly endorsed too because he didn’t live that long after the CCA started. So that is just fascinating to me.
The thing he said that really surprised me was when he said that CHUCK even after starting the CCA was talking about pulling out of it and doing their own thing. Not Brian saying that, but Chuck
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Chris, I think nuggets like that are why Michael included the disclaimer in post one. Michael reported the same thing a couple years ago, and has repeated it often.
Outstanding! Thank you Dave.
And thank you Michael for publishing!
Hi Steve, I could totally be wrong but I seem to remember Michael saying that Chuck didn’t really fully endorse the CCA (that he was kind of pressured into it), but I don’t think I’d ever read anyway that Chuck was actually talking about pulling out of the same CCA and CCCM just going their own way, much like Brian has actually done now. If that was reported before (totally possible), I missed it. In any event, Dave’s comments certainly do back up what a number of others have said. I’ve always very much respected Dave and even the way he wrote his comments above demonstrate once again the caliber of guy he is. As you’ve mentioned, I’d much rather take the reports of people like him and yourself that actually worked with Chuck and sat under Chuck on a day-to-day basis for a substantial bit of time over those that had much less frequent local interaction.
Steve…thanks for that.
This is the first time that I can remember when a respected name has basically affirmed what I had already reported,but was unable to name a source for.
As Dave said, Chuck made his feelings known to a lot of people, so I had multiple sources and lots of confidence in the story.
It kind of blindsided me as I was just thinking last night that I should ask Dave what he thought about this mess…now we know. 🙂
Thank you, Dave, for your courage and willingness to speak these things.
Conflicting messages were a constant thing with Chuck, and anyone who knew him knows that. But you have to ultimately go by what he did in the end, which was turn the church and all of its assets over to Brian’s stewardship. But the thing is, no one has to submit to Brian. Brian isn’t even asking anyone to submit to him. He is simply unwilling to submit to others,
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This part brought a smile of satisfaction and assurance to my heart. Or as I put it, “Brian said, ‘No’, to guys who have never been told, no, except by Chuck. And they don’t like it and after 3 years trumped up this women pastor, not committed to the whole Bible ruse as a smokescreen.
And I think I remarked once or twice about the assets being (properly) left with Costa Mesa by Chuck and therefore, rightly, under that one church’s total control.
Well done. Finally a word from someone who really knew Chuck, his characteristics and general desires as opposed to a group of pastors who really, at best, only knew Romaine or never knew Chuck enough to understand his “conflicting messages.”
And written in such a gracious way. Makes me feel like repenting for the evil thoughts I occassionally had for you. Forgive me.
Thanks for sharing this here Micheal. I had just read this on Facebook and was coming here to see if you had noticed it yet. I am glad you shared it, thanks
Steve
There was a time around 2000 when members of the CCCM board wanted to transfer most f the assets into Calvary Chapel Santa Ana, Inc., a CA Corp. formed by CCCM to prevent someone from using the name as technically, CCCM is located in Santa Ana. There was a concern for familiar influences on Chuck and pressure on him to transfer assets into their names or entities they controlled, so the board suggested this idea to Chuck. I’m sure he bounced it off of some people, myself included. In the end he made the right decision and told me that “the assets belong to this church and its people.” Regrettably I’ve heard second hand those familiar influence were pressuring him until the very end. Always felt sorry that he had to endure such people. Just thought I’d share that with you.
Thank you, Jeff. I agree 100% The people of Costa Mesa through their tithes bought those assets. Including me when I went there.
The people of Costa Mesa, clearly want Brian to be their pastor. That video out there shows the weight of the world being lifted off him and Cheryl when the process was finalized and the pastors and elders all laid hands on him and prayed – followed by a standing ovation from the congregation
Quite a contrast with the lone voice of dissent off camera
Steve
Just curious. Who was the lone voice of dissent? Was it “Hiss, the snake.”
Steve, conflicting messages by Chuck for sure.
Just this weekend I went back and watched that video his brother Paul put out where he said Chuck told him he just wished “Brian would go away.”
But the video I revisited which really underscores to me the kind of man Chuck Smith was is this one.
ref=em-v-share
Thank you Dave Rolph.Thoroughly and logically stated Framed with love and humility, as usual for you. Thank you.
Wow…BIG TIME *mic drop!*
Good word Dave.
Scooter @ 18:
Yes, that video by Chuck is the one I always go back to also. It says so much in only a minute or two. Whatever mistakes Chuck may have made, he knew where to put his hope and trust and where not to and I look forward when my time on earth is done to joining him before the throne.
Chris Long. I agree. After I watched it again with my wife, I made the comment that he summarized his testimony, and the gospel as the central point of his testimony, in 2 minutes.
Facing the reality of our own mortality and the shortness of our time left on earth, as he was in that clip, has a way of widling down who we ultimately are when it comes to standing before a holy God.
I’m so glad that what I heard in that video is how I will always remember him, in spite of all that has surfaced about his own shortcomings and sins.
The best of Calvary Chapel will forever be the kind of childlike faith demonstrated in that short clip of Chuck Smith. No matter how this one is remembered may he always be remembered for his simple devotion to and trust in Jesus.
What I’m happy for in all of this is that it’s clear to me at least that Dave Rolph and Steve Wright are good men. Not perfect by any stretch. But they’re good men. Meanwhile the beat goes on.
Thank you, Dave…I love your honesty…
I wrote this thing because I thought it would save me having to continually answer questions about it. So far I’ve been inundated since I wrote it. Oh well. I appreciate Michael pointing out that I’m not the source of his information. The truth is, I read PP so that I can find out what is going on half the time myself. And it’s good to hear from Jeff Sheckstein, who is a good guy. God bless you guys!
Dave Rolph, can you please help me to understand what this split is all about?
Just kidding 😉
Dave,
Thanks for writing this.
I just didn’t want people to think you were in cahoots with the devil in Phoenix… 🙂
Rolph’s words have carried weight around here for many moons, including some late nights with the ‘night crew.’ Now we have a better insight as to why he fit right in with those shenanigans. 😉 Despite all that, this contribution is insightful, gracious, helpful, and holds the ingredients for healing…for those with ears to hear. Bueno. Muy Bueno.
I think Dave is experiencing what Oden did when he shared a few things on FB recently. A gazillion comments and I imagine many phone calls and messages via e-mail and FB. 🙂
Oh yes. The Phoenix is rising!!!
Dave, Good words for all to consider as CCs goes through this transition. As a new believer in 1970 at CCCM, I remember numerous times that Chuck would talk about not creating another denomination. He would say, “May we be known for the love of God and His grace.” And we were. To me, that is his legacy. We were so excited to be growing in the Lord together. And it all probably looked like we were ‘radical, messy, independent, non-conformist.’ We talked a lot about having a personal relationship with Jesus and little about religion. It sad to hear that CC pastors, rather then being united in Christ, are choosing sides.
We can learn from history. The Corinthian fellowship was marked by division. They had forgotten who they were – called into a fellowship with the Son!
When we, like the Corinthians, forget who we are, we are all prone to do and say dumb things, create divisions, etc. Lord, help us. May we stop from our busy schedules, and have ongoing fellowship with You and with one another. We can’t heal broken people, but You can!
I am so glad Dave spoke up! All I can say is AMEN AND AMEN! I really respect men/pastors who have the integrity to be HONEST! This post by him will be very helpful to other pastors who are not sure what to make of it all. Especially if their congregation is pressuring them to make a decision.
This video from Costa Mesa some years ago sets us straight right from the Word and a heart of love.
Dave gave great “back handed” endorsement to CCA stating,
“However, Pastor Chuck also made numerous private statements concerning his lack of respect for CCA, to me and many others, and on several occasions he told me that he was going to pull out of CCA and “we will start our own thing.”
It’s obvious Brian has done the first part, but not the second, i.e., pulled out of CCA, but hasn’t started his “own thing.”
From a CCA perspective Brian should resign CCCM and start his own thing from “scratch” kind of like Chuck Jr ended up doing.
BTW the above quote came from “private conversation” so should stay private. I know for someone who needs sources this is tempting, but can get “tabloidish” and gossipy. I’m can imagine Don Mclure must have some private “Chuck” statements he could share justifying his take but some times “discretion is the better part of valor.
It was 1975 and the holy spirit had to corral me and I ended up at Calvary Chapel. Met Chuck Jr., became a part of the Bible study that build a church, got married and my life was changed forever. Reading this brought back so many memories. Very well said. I have never been in a fellowship since Calvary Costa Mesa or the one Chuck Jr. started since those early days…and I have lived all over the US since…I noticed a starter Calvary Chapel down the street from me here in Leander, TX and I am thinking of going…I hope the holy spirit continues to move everyone today as it was then…
There is a lot here I agree with… and I am of the same opinion that an olive branch should have been doggedly pursued in the past 3 years. This didn’t have to happen. And it shouldn’t have. It’s a shame and it will be a destabilizing factor for CC as the future unfolds. You can disagree with this prognostication, but CCA has been more than willing to demonstrate their right to flex for the presumptive rights they feel were given to them as “sons”, and the collection of CC’s within their sphere will be forced to choose sides.
I also applaud Rolph’s honest assessment of Chuck in the sense that he demythologized him. I never saw Chuck as anything other than an old man who has a lot of power that he wielded in an enclosed environment of his creating. I wasn’t there in the 70’s so I have no idea how all that Jesus people stuff went down. I came later. You know, after the secret sin had flowed like water under the bridge for many years. By then those in power relentlessly held on to the storied beginnings of Calvary’s as having a special place in God’s eye. These memories of days gone by were the manna they ate day after day.
I know of Rolph. He would recognize my face if he saw me but he would not know my name. I saw him every week in the back of the church as we waited our turn to go out. I stood next to him time after time and felt the coldness and disinterest from the guys who were there to run the show. Every week I’d be back there alone, waiting to do what I was there to do for 3 services, and Chuck would emerge with his guys surrounding him. They would all stand there with Chuck talking in hushed tones. Rolph, or some other guy, would invariably position himself between me and Chuck, prohibiting me from speaking to them. No one ever spoke to me, except with the occasional mutterance of a hello. They were protecting Chuck from the likes of someone as inconsequential as myself. I never felt anything from them that was close to being pastoral in the period of time I was “serving” there. All I saw in the waning years of CCCM was it bore very little resemblance to the radical church Rolph described. Instead, I saw the “team players and rule keepers” who eagerly played bouncer. And whether consciously or not, even Rolph played his own part because that is what the culture surrounding Chuck had become. (And to Rolph: I agree with Sheckstein in the sense that your letter showed me another side to you and provided a point of grace to recalculate my own feelings towards you…)
Rolph states “I had the privilege of growing up in a church environment that was crazy, independent and radical. It was messy and disruptive. It was anti-establishment and always walking a fine edge, and falling off regularly.” I think that many people came to CC for that reason. So many of us felt like we lived on the Island of Misfits Toys, and we were happy to find a bald guy who gave us the promise of a community where we could invest our lives in meaningful ways that required conformity to a higher moral ideal while simultaneously offering a latitude for sincere expression and devotion. But by the time I got there, independence and crazy had long been replaced with dependence upon a figurehead and acculturated church expectation. Radical had been replaced with a standard liturgy which was by now hymn filled and procedural. Organic did not happen. Everything was measured through the aesthetics of Chuck, and power for change or contribution was found only in proximity to him. Moses Modeling was now the runway upon which the power players posed.
As a result, in the end independence was not valued. It was a threat.
Memories of radical hippies doing church and making mistakes but going on anyway in love is the best of Calvary. But what happened at the end is a travesty. The landscape is littered with the lemmings like myself who feel only the sting of having been naive enough to have believed what they were selling. What was that? A memory. They were selling yesterday’s goodness, which was a tsunami of God’s love, and which 40 years later had become only a tiny wave lapping upon the shore. No one admitted it. Hence the weekly charade of “everybody stand up and move to the center” to make room for the people who were not coming anymore.
Rolph closes with “There is an old saying in history that the first thing revolutionaries do when they come into power is kill all the revolutionaries.” His willingness to admit this when it pertains to CC is something I applaud. But it is not a new issue within CC. They were shooting skeet on anyone considered a radical or subversive to the established culture long before I got there. In an effort to maintain the mythology of their own legacy, hiding from it the truths that would buckle the foundations, they created an environment where their inability to love the divergent festered an indifference to the least of these who were broken, different, and anti-their-establishment.
Rolph is right on much what he stated. And in my opinion this was the biggest clarion signaling how far off course CC had gone. Chuck’s inconsistencies of decisions, errancy of his rule, and the arbitrary nature of his dealings set the stage for this to happen. In the end, Brian’s independence was not embraced nor respected by CCA. It was and is considered a threat. And Brian, being a teflon kind of guy, ignored the signs of a growing problem. The boys from Philly got tired of this and yelled “pull” and the pointed their guns…
For the 8 years I was there, Chuck was available every Sunday after each service to greet any who desired to say hi, ask prayer or a Bible question, share a quick story. Rolph was always near, in case I was a nutjob. That accessibility pretty rare among mega church pastors….and these were the years of the established “liturgy”….very post hippy
I will offer my support to what Steve just mentioned. I was at CCCM I think between 1996 – 2002 and Chuck was always at the back door doing the meet & greet with whoever and for however long people wanted to stand in line.
You bet. Chuck Smith made it a point to greet anyone and everyone after each service. For decades.
@Steve, MLD, and Costco,
My apologies if what I said inferred my experience to applied to myself as laity. I was not. Chuck was always available to shake a hand after service with anyone in his congregation. That was an important part of what he did. I was not seen as laity, I was a musician, and spent time in the back. I worked every week without expectation for pay because I felt it was my way of giving. I was never acknowledged, complemented, or encouraged. I was met with silence most of the time I was back in the wings, waiting to go and do what was required. My experience therefore is from that perspective.
It sounds like you were living up to your name, The Least of These. The Lord will reward you. Grace and Peace!
The Least of these:
That was Pastor Chuck. People would ask me, after many years serving under him, what were the attributes/markings of the Holy Spirit I learned from him? My answer was thus: firstly, If it were found/validated/evident in the bible, Chuck would recognize the calling, prompting or action as a legitimate move of the Spirit; and second, it was a move of the Spirit if it was free.
I don’t know what Brian has or hasn’t done, but I find it interesting that people are assuming that Brian hasn’t tried really hard over three years to do the very communicating and olive-branching that people are saying he didn’t do. For all we know, this has been three years coming and it was time to take action.
For me, its been longer than three years. For me, when George Bryson held an impromptu session to “correct” the “pro-calvinistic” associations of some, that was a landmark low moment. I went to it just to hear the lunacy and I was richly rewarded.It was both an amazing misrepresentation of calvinism (no surprise) and a complete misrepresentation of what Chuck believed.
At any rate, for my part, Brian deserves the benefit of the doubt in how this has been handled.
Bingo, Corby!
I believe this has been going on behind-the-scenes for 3+ years…and that this has always been an issue. (CCA view vs, BB’s). I mean, didn’t don McClure teach at the Bible College in Murietta, speak at conferences, etc?
Why isn’t thAt considered “olive branching?”
stephen, a couple of the signers of the CCA letter taught at the Bible College this very semester. As have I.
Steve,
Exactly. That isn’t considered “olive branching?” Like: if this is something that has been going on for 3+ years, BB didn’t exclude anyone simply because of methodological differences/preferences.
Or, would that be considered something like “needing the teachers so ‘they’ are doing ‘him’ the favor?”
Depends on whose viewpoint we are looking from, I guess.
Regardless…like Corby said: it does seem like people are assuming Brian didn’t extend olive branches earlier and eventually, after 3+ years, he decided enough was enough…but rather that the resignation from CCA (etc) was a shocking, sudden, totally out-of-the-blue event.
There’s nothing in Dave’s statement that I haven’t been saying for over three years…the only things missing were the details I wrote.
Brian has put up with more crap from this crowd than I would have by about a ton…
From what I remember hearing from the Brodersen’s when they left England because Pastor Chuck wanted them back to HELP him; There was a lot of terrible, crazy and imaginable stuff going on at CCCM and we were asked to pray for them. I had no idea what they were talking about but looking back now, I can only imagine a lot of what was really going on behind the scenes. The power struggles by others upon Chuck’s legacy. I would assume this craziness started at least in 2000. Plus I’ve read the UK Pastors loved Brian, but the pastors in Cali didn’t. I would think Brian has felt this kind of unkind pressure for many years. Being Chuck’s son in law may have brought with it jealousy from others. I can’t help but feel sorry for all that he’s gone through. A man who suffers much is a man I’d much rather listen to than someone who hasn’t. God shapes a man thru suffering. We need to pray for God to sustain him.
Furthermore…trust me when I say that if Dave Rolph thought that Brodersen took over CCCM against Smith’s wishes, Brodersen would be elsewhere as we speak…
This bears repeating:
“A unity that comes through division and exclusion isn’t really unity at all.”
Dave Rolph hits the bullseye.
One more piece of CC irony: those who dare to question CC leadership often found themselves labeled as ‘divisive,’ when in fact the leaders themselves were the ones doing the dividing.
I’ve been checking periodically on both sites church finders in my area to see if anyone has already dropped off of either directory. So far, no changes. As a pastor-type person I’m not hoping for division. As an observer of history I am curious as to where (geographically) churches are dropping off of either directory (or both, maybe they’ve had enough). Since CCA has asked people to choose sides, I’m curious as to where that is happening as it makes an interesting indicator of the CC culture in that area.
CCs in Oregon and Washington are, for the most part, pretty independent of each other, with the exception of the cool church planting from Calvary Fellowship and Wayne Taylor. I wouldn’t expect a group of them to fall one way or the other because of tight connections.
I’m guess I’m curious where the fallout is happening, if it is happening. Might sound like a dark questions, but I’m very interested from a sociological perspective, not a gossip one.
Corby, Here in Southern California, John Randall’s church in San Juan Capistrano is no longer listed on the CalvaryChapel.com site. I’m sure there is more. His is a fairly new and growing church that many in my area are flocking to. Especially the youth.
I have Pastor friends who are just in a waiting mode as to what decision to make. Although their congregations are pestering them to decide.
John Randall has led the opposition to Brian on the left coast. And did make a very public departure from CCCM – which has gotten a lot of traction online.
He presently is speaking as one with CCA, no real equivocation that I can read…
It’s funny, I’m more or less in the heart of things in So. CA and can count on one finger the number of people from my congregation that have asked me about this. Several others knew/know but haven’t brought it to me in any form (but commented once I finally made a comment which was simply to share Rolph’s facebook post.
The idea that our congregation as a whole would be itching for me to take a side….is something that literally does not compute in the real world here.
well…maybe it means we are doing something right. I hope so.
“The idea that our congregation as a whole would be itching for me to take a side….is something that literally does not compute in the real world here.”
I wonder if they knew more about all this….. and I’m not suggesting you tell them – that’s your call, whether they would not have a sense of identifying with one side or the other.
I posted Brian’s remarks on my fb, I didn’t get much of a response from the locals here.
I’m not in a place to ascribe motive to Randall, but I believe he is misguided. I won’t ever attend any conference that he is speaking at.
I am waiting for one of my elders to return from vacation and we will discuss our response to all this. I don’t see this as a time where you can sit on the fence and it escapes me how so many apparently can do so. The CCA guys have given me no reason to stay with them, particularly how they have misrepresented Brodersen.
A lot will depend on the Sr. Pastor. To the Sr. Pastors who are almost 100% teaching and very little pastoring, or praying with, counseling, the flock – this is a big deal that will be deemed worthy of much time and discussion within the church. Special meetings, announcements, social media updates.
To those of us who minister weekly to multiple people in the congregation facing life threatening disease, heartbreaking relationship issues, significant poverty, and a host of other REAL problems…the last thing we want to do is make THIS seem like a major issue in their lives here on earth, or give cause for concern that something might happen to the church they love. People have enough to worry about, and the holidays can be a brutal reminder of heartbreak and loss for our people.
I urge my fellow pastors to keep perspective.
Corby,
As I expressed on the other thread, CC Philly, along with two of their plants in the Philadelphia area are no longer on the church locator on calvarychapel.com. Additionally, in my general area, CC Old Bridge in New Jersey, pastored by Lloyd Pulley who’s also on the CCA council, has also pulled out. I haven’t looked beyond my area. CC Philly was the first to pull out of these.
I’m more sad about the fact that grown men can’t go outside themselves and seek counsel as a group and work through this with godly counsel all together. Sit in a room for an hour, then again, then again and work through this. I’ve heard that a marriage will work in marriage counseling if both people want it to work. It just may be that both sides do not want it to work anymore. But what about the kids?
“To those of us who minister weekly to multiple people in the congregation facing life threatening disease, heartbreaking relationship issues, significant poverty, and a host of other REAL problems…the last thing we want to do is make THIS seem like a major issue in their lives here on earth, or give cause for concern that something might happen to the church they love. People have enough to worry about, and the holidays can be a brutal reminder of heartbreak and loss for our people.”
Steve…I couldn’t agree more nor say AMEN louder!
Michael @ 49,
Michael puts up with NO crap! 😉
Olive Branch,
This is not a divorce, we were never married. We are the bride of Christ, not to each other.
It is normal for brothers who grow up in the same house to eventually recognize that they can no longer live under the same roof. One day, they leave the house and start their own home. But they are still brothers and they still have the same last name.
Steve,
. When this was first blowing up, I was busy helping some one move, then later doing something else to help someone. I’m in trenches, and some of these CCA guys make more in a month or two than I do the entire year.
While I would agree with your sense of priorities, these things eventually have a way of surfacing, and they need to be addressed. Or as in the case with me recently, I had someone cite a CCA board member’s political opinion about something, and they were using that as their basis for believing something in such a concrete way that is arguably open to interpretation.
pstrmike, I agree strongly with what Steve shared about people’s lives and their personal struggles. The holidays can be brutal for people in so many different ways and this story might not help things for them.
OTOH what I have seen is some CC folks who are fully aware of things not uttering a word as they see it as sowing division and discord. Most in the pews don’t have much of a clue. I walked in when one man was telling the pastor how certain CC’s are allowing Calvinistic books in there sphere. Sadly many believe CC is above reproach and anything seen as an attack is quickly dismissed. It’s a strange time for me having begun at CCCM in 1976. I’m wondering if those involved are even concerned about any sort of dialogue or reconciliation.
There is a big difference between seeing a need or value to share what is going on versus some belief that we are on the fence if we don’t somehow take sides NOW, all the more when neither side is forcing such a side taking.
In the Lutheran world this would all be public knowledge – there are Lutheran publications that do just this – either just plain reporting all things Lutheran to providing a Christian service to keep everything in the sunlight… not to mention that some publications may have their own dog in the fight.
However it get’s done, it would be out there — because within 3 years it may be something that must be settled at convention.
I also would say that while marriage is not the right description, we are more than just brothers who eventually knew we would move on someday. CC has always been about pastoral affiliation, nor church affiliation, and that is why this split is a big deal and both frustrating and saddening to me and so many.
I would disagree Steve.
In my opinion, that last letter from CCA stopped short, very short, of asking us to remove our churches from the ccdotcom website. That was very clear to me. The fact that some of the CCA members have already withdrawn from CCGN is a strong implication that this is their desire for those who are in CCA.
Secondly, I think if you press this question with some (not all) of the CCA board members, they will tell you to choose one or the other.
Mike, I have no doubt the council would be very happy if nobody stayed in CCGN. Obviously. My point stands, now there is nobody saying you can’t be both, and encouragement to leave CCGN is coming from the idea that it should not be encouraged to prosper. No need for churches to worry about choosing sides….that could change tomorrow, but that is the case today
Come on Steve, now you are splitting hairs. Granted they are at least not saying so publicly. However, what does such action really say about all of us? The CCA board’s misrepresentation of the pastor of the church where Calvary Chapel began is an indication to me that these men are questionable as to whether they walk in virtue, to the degree that I think their qualification to oversee something as a movement/denomination, particularly without being accountable to the rank and file pastors, does come into question. In short, what have we become? Isn’t this an indication that all of us should have some input as to who is given a seat at this table?
Gotta go, final word is yours if you want it………
I’m not being deliberately obtuse about our new reality. Nor am I saying that we may be approaching a time where integrity requires a disassociation, even if not forced to by either CCA or CCGN.
I just don’t think we are there yet..at least not for me. I see nothing but personality conflict and not sure my joining in the personality conflict by picking a side at this time is in the best interest of anything…
However, I am keeping track of how long my letter to the council remains unaddressed….If the council does not have someone among all these men willing or able to return an email to a 23-years-in-the-movement pastor…then obviously there is a problem. What if I was writing to plant a church with a young pastor?
@62 PstrMike Forget about the marriage analogy. My point is that if both parties seek godly ongoing counsel as a group for 6 months provided by some pastors outside of Calvary Chapel and the result is still the same I think the situation will be viewed with more love and respect for both sides. This can be worked out but my personal sense is that both parties have moved on The Brodersens seem very fruitful in ministry. Cheryl Brodersen just published in 2016 a study book Jesus Magnified and it’s absolutely amazing. Also on the Calvary Chapel Association’s Website the Pastors’ Wives Conference videos are so encouraging. Since I’m not in ministry, I don’t have to pick sides; however, I’m sure those in ministry at a Calvary Chapel are very concerned about the future.
Thank you for this pastor Dave. This is what was so confusing, Chuck was the biggest non-conformist around and thank God he was!
Oh yes and Amen brother! Thank you for speaking up and out.
Everything Dave Rolph has said in regards to the independent spirit that characterized Chuck Smith, and the unity in diversity that CS exemplified is right on, but isn’t the concern voiced by the CCA not so much to do with style or indepence to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, but more with Brian Broderson’s moving away from expository teaching, and a distancing himself from the CC pre-tribulation rapture teaching which are core tenets of CC, and his apparent endorsement of emergent theology teachers, and his beginning to have women teach over men, and his controversial comments such as; a Christian may be led by the Spirit to attend a homosexual wedding so he can be a witness, so from these actions it would seem that BB does not want to continue to uphold what are basic CC distinctives, so it stands to reason that he would be asked to step down from being a CC, or as he has done to resign the Association, and now start his own thing, and see who would follow this new hybrid, and the only thing left for Brian to do to simplify the matter and to clear up the confusion is to call it Calvary Chapel Reformed Fellowship and down the line as he continues to modernize and accommodate the lost, if he so feels “led by the spirit, he can even become a gay friendly church as many modern churches are doing, advocating for homosexual Christians. And those CC’s that want to follow Brian can also simply add the word “reformed” to their CC affiliate and problem solved.
The last pluck from an old hippie guitar is in the distant past, the half way houses and outreaches to the downtrodden and the disenfranchised have long been replaced with CEO mentalities, the strange lunatics are now kept out, and if that same hippy with the scraggly beard was to walk in to any CC barefoot and with a word from the Lord, he would surely be shown the back door, and along with him CC long ago showed the HS the way out the door, for disturbing its service! A new move from God is surely needed, and for that to happen messiness would be needed, something the CC of today would not permit.
#74-75: there is just so much incorrect about your first post and I doubt many would agree with #75 (but I could be wrong about that latter one).
I don’t have time to address them all…but those concerns about Brian have been addressed in several threads here since this thing began. The condenses is that NONE of the accusations laid against him are true, but rather out-of-context (or fabricated) excuses to seize power by certain members of the CCA.
I do suggest reading all CCA/Brian brodersen articles and comments on this site, starting with “Busting Brodersen part 1.”
Stephen;
I have read and heard exactly what BB said, and he clearly said, that Chuck’s teaching on Sunday morning was to tell the congregation to buckle in for the ride because Jesus was coming soon, and he Brian would have to try to correct or offset what Chuck had been teaching when he Brian had his turn once a month, so I don’t think that’s being distorted. Also Brian has said that the whole rapture thing should be “toned down.” Also his retweeting of statements and adages from teachers that CC by and large considers to be off the wall, is well documented. And Brian saying that teaching through the Old Testament especially some of the books like Deuteronomy “can be brutal” specially for the young people, and since he was seeing more and more white hairs in the congregation he saw the need to change his approach from expository teaching, to topical, and his statement advocating that Christians might be led to go to a gay or transgender wedding is also well documented and in context as you read it from Brian himself.
So I don’t see where the stated concerns are false or erroneous when there’s record of BB saying and teaching these things. As far as Brian placing women to teach over men, well you can easily google it and find examples of this, and it’s not just testimonies that these women are sharing but actual doctrine based on subjective experience.
So far many who perhaps have never attended a CC, and who attend churches that do most of these things it’s no big deal since this is perhaps normative in your church but these are not CC practices, and so from what I’ve seen and read by going directly to BB’s writings and recorded statements it seems like there is reason for concern and the CAA is justified in sounding the alarm and wanting to steer the ship aright and keep it on course according to the founding principles of CC.
And from BB’s own statement concerning his new program the CCGN, it seems like he is procedding without any accountability or checks and balances, and some may say well that’s what Chuck Smith did and now Brian is just following his mentor, but unlike Chuck Smith with BB we already begin to see concerns with the decisions he’s making which are not just a matter of style or form, but in some cases even getting out of the tracks of scripture and the CC distinctives, thereby alienating his fellow elders and generating distrust. I think it’s going to eventually come down to each individual CC what line they’re going to follow, the new progressive agenda Brian is wanting to set, or to remain with the traditional one that CC has had for the last 50 years.
John Donne,
There is so much wrong and misrepresentation in your posts. Have you taken the time to read through the articles on this site in regards to Brodersen as Stephen suggested to you? Read some of the comments, too. Especially from Steve Wright, a CC pastor with much experience at CCCM. If so, you would be much more informed and wouldn’t be making many of the accusations that you have done so. Or maybe you’d be making them anyway.
1. Brian is not moving away for expository teaching. He continues to regularly teach in an expository manner. He may also sometimes teach in a topical fashion. Guess what? So did Chuck Smith. And probably just about every single CC pastor does from time to time, too. Just because someone says that they don’t think it’s their best use of time to teach strictly verse by verse through some of the OT books on Sunday morning does not mean they are moving away from expository teaching. Oh, and when Jesus was on this earth, did his recording teachings lend more towards expository or topical? Hmmmm…..
2. Brian is not distancing himself from pre-trib rapture teaching. He has only suggested that some tone it down and don’t overemphasize it. But he still teaches it. Still believes it. Just like many other CC pastors already do. They teach it but don’t go bonkers about it.
3. Brian has occasionally had women teaching men from the pulpit. Guess what? Chuck Smith did, too. Dave Rolph’s own testimony in this article confirms that. So what is the problem here in regards to doing things that are different from Chuck and shouldn’t happen in a CC?
4. Brian said that Christians have the freedom to attend a homosexual wedding if they feel led to do so. So what’s the big deal here? Did he say homosexual behavior is okay? Did he say a pastor should conduct a homosexual wedding? Does the Bible forbid a Christian from attending a homosexual wedding? Where in the CC distinctives does this say that this can’t happen? Hmmmm, methinks this subject has absolutely nothing to do with faithfulness to CC distinctives and is only another ploy to demonize Brian.
OK, I’m done now dealing with this silliness. Just needed to re-iterate some truths that have already been pointed out many times in these articles and threads over the past several weeks on the CC split.
Kevin.
Thanks for that post…I really don’t have the time for lengthy posts. 😉
In the Calvary Chapel we were apart of 20+ years ago, our Pastor (a well known great Bible expositor) had a few prominent women “share” / teach our mixed congregation. She was a well known great woman of God. It was Elizabeth Eliott. It was amazing! She is not a pastor, was not in any kind of authority over our church/men. Why can’t a woman EVER speak to all genders? Another was a very successful Missionary sister who is a very godly woman that our church supported. She shared what God was doing in on her mission field. Then we had marriage seminars where it was a husband and wife team who taught the congregation. As you can see, women are free to teach or share at churches WITHOUT being in authority over men as long as they are not a pastor or an elder. If we drew the argument of women not being able to teach ANY man, then us women could not even talk to men in general! Does that mean, I couldn’t minister to my brother who I see is downcast at church? Or that I couldn’t give a word of rebuke to an unruly brother? The Bible is clearly stating women cannot be in a position of pastor or Elder who has the authority of teaching the Church doctrine; as that is the role of men.
I think BB blaming the gray hairs and young people not wanting to sit under his expository teaching may just be that he’s boring, to be honest I believe the only reason he’s in the position he’s in is because of nepotism, and it’s nepotism that’s produced this split. When you compare his placement in Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa with the calling of a Mike Mckintosh, Raul Ríes, Greg Laurie, Jon Courson you see a marked difference in an anointing and a being placed in a position of authority because of nepotism, that if BB was on his own without the association of his father in law, I would be surprised if he would have had but maybe a handful of people. Appointing him as his successor was Chuck Smith’s biggest mistake as he was blinded by nepotism and now we begin to see the result. Better it would have been any of the aforementioned men who on their own have shown to have an anointing and calling from God.
Stephen,
I see you are so awed by John Donne’s response that you can’t even get a word out. 😉
John Donne,
Real nice of you. As you apparently couldn’t support any of your earlier accusations as they were all shown to be factually false, you then move on to nepotism and Brodersen’s lack of “anointing” and “calling”. Things which are much harder to nail down with facts. Real nice.
Kevin,
Lol…perhaps the “awes silence” works better than my original 1-word post. ?
And I could not agree with u more regarding your latest post.
This Bologna is getting so old and tired….
John Donne’s latest is ignorance and slander. Brian pastored a church in Vista for years, then stepped out in faith to England, then served as an assistant for over a decade at CCCM. The youth were leaving under CHUCK, not Brian, and that is not simply Brian’s opinion but the report on the ground. His post is appreciated though for showing the sort of bitter jealousy that is behind this….(calling of God or otherwise)
I gave you my responses, my post concerning BB’s differences with traditional CC are apparent, and instead of listening to either one of our interpretations and as in your case justifications for BB’s statements and actions which are moving away from the CC distinctives, people can just google it and decide for themselves, so I’ve already given my opinion after hearing and reading from BB himself, thus I chose to move on since it’s futile to continue to belabor it with you and apparently the majority of the posters on this blog, but by bringing up and commenting on the problem with nepotism, it’s not really moving on in total, for I believe it goes to the root of the problem, and what happens when people are placed in positions of authority based on nepotism, rather than the call and anointing of God.
Steve Wright;
Calvary Vista, was a bust, did you ever visit there, very run down and poorly attended while BB was pastoring, it was only the name and association that brought people there, and as for England, again met with failure, thus his returning for what was a sure gig. Go to CCMCC and you’ll quickly see how attendance has dropped from when CS was pastoring.
The truth is and it may be hard for people to hear but the anointing is not there for BB and you can’t make it up with new novel ways that move away from what God has blessed, nepotism can only take you so far.
It’s tough to follow a legend. No matter how good you may be, you get no respect. Gene Bartow followed John Wooden at UCLA – had a higher winning percentage and was run out of town in a couple of years.
How about when Joel Gregory followed W A Criswell out of First Baptist Dallas – no different. – no mercy.
Hey MLD, I was driving to San Diego for seminary the three years Tim Flannery was a broadcaster with the Padres. You recall he was a pretty average player. And when a caller used to get personal with him he would say “How many hits did you get in the big leagues”.
That’s what I think of when guys take shots online at a church’s attendance being indicative of the faithfulness of the pastor.
John Donne you are being mean spirited period. Brian did NOT want to leave England. Trust me. It’s very hard to leave your baby (church). But he did out of loyalty and love for Chuck needing him and Cheryl. You are judging the intentions of his heart for which the Bible forbids. Repent.
I heard Chuck once say, you believe you’re called to lead, start leading and see who’s following. Attendance may not be indicative of a pastors faithfulness but it is indicative of God’s anointing and blessing, or at least that’s what Calvary Chapels have taught, though they may say that is not true, yet in practice it’s the pastors with the big numbers that get the prominence, and the radio programs, and the featured speaking places…so in CC’s there’s really only two ways to ascend and one is by anointing backed up by numbers and the other by nepotism, BB has ascended by the latter, which ultimately is ending the movement, or at least that part of the movement. Ultimately it’s not man who chooses as CS chose BB based on Nepotism, but God who anoints and calls. Peter and the apostles chose Matthias, based on their human reasoning and following the practice of the day as they cast lots, and the HS chose Saul of Tarsus, and what was the difference between the two? THE FRUIT! The crowds responded to Paul, while Matthias becomes a footnote.
Actually, the Holy Spirit refers to “the twelve” after Matthias and Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. But way to parrot a commonly heard statement in some CCs because someone with “an anointing ” said it first.
As to what Chuck said about church planting, I’d wager some on this blog have forgotten more than you know.
**facepalm and slow drag**
John Donne…have you ever been to CCCM while Pastor Brian has been Senior Pastor?
Or are you another internet “expert” who uses the anonymity of the internet to say things that he would never dare to say in person?
As Matthias became a footnote, and the Holy Spirit gave Paul a special anointing as the twelveth apostle “born out of time,” so God will choose who He will move through, and it may be through a Greg Laurie or Jon Courson, or a Raul Ries or Mike Mckintosh, as He has in the past, men with proven anointings, but with BB and many others in the Calvary Chapel movement of today it seems to be that there is more nepotism than anointing and calling from God, if Chuck had at least chosen one of these men with a proven anointing then the movement would have at least have had a better chance of survival instead of being buried under BB.
It’s a good object lesson. There is no engagement with the text, no recognition of either the distinction between apostles to the Jews and to the Gentiles, no recognition that other than Peter and John (and James for being killed) all the apostles are footnotes in Acts (legends in the kingdom though)..just a silly double down on what he was taught by a prior leader and circulated as gospel through some circles of the CC movement. Everything that frustrates me as a Bible student and teacher. The idea that Mathias was not the legit replacement of Judah and really many years later, Paul would be (with no Biblical evidence or verse support) is textbook of the mindset that is never swayed…that Brian cashed in on his marriage. Lunacy…and very sad
Judas (auto correct got me)
The old anointing crap.
Anointed = good speaker, good performer.
If numbers =anointing, the Mormons are one anointed bunch…
A good speaker is sometimes a slick speaker.
Being good with words, being persuasive in one’s speech is not always a good thing.
I can’t stand it when folks come on here throwing names around of the celebrity pastor’s they worship without having a clue about the baggage and damage they have caused getting where they are today.
Matthias becomes a footnote.<<<
Only in your world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Matthias
Steve Wright;
Where does this John Donne get this crap and false teaching that it was Paul who God chose not Matthias, well how about from your founder and mentor Chuck Smith, so please don’t come off so high and mighty and so theologically superior unless you’re claiming to be much more learned than Chuck Smith your founder who exegized it thus;
https://m.studylight.org/commentaries/csc/acts-1.html
“anointing”
…that nebulous, undefinable term oft used by ChuckSr and those within the Charismatic/Pentecostal part of the church family to denote anything or person, or expression which is approved of by the person telling the story.
As a worship leader I recall being described as having been “anointed”, or that the song or set was “anointed”. It was always used with awe and respect, and I still am in awe of how it is used, though I respect it’s use less and less every time I hear it.
Steve Wright is far better trained theologically than Chuck Smith ever was.
obviously this can’t be the same John Donne who was the great metaphysical poet and cleric back in the early 1600s. Hard to imagine that John Donne having any idea Chuck Smith would even be born.
Death be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for, thou art not so,
For, those, whom thou think’st, thou dost overthrow,
Die not, poore death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleepe, which but thy pictures bee,
Much pleasure, then from thee, much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee doe goe,
Rest of their bones, and souls deliverie.
Thou art slave to Fate, Chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poyson, warre, and sicknesse dwell,
And poppie, or charmes can make us sleepe as well,
And better than thy stroake; why swell’st thou then;
One short sleepe past, wee wake eternally,
And death shall be no more, Death, thou shalt die.
If you just stick to quoting John Donne poems you might be doing better by everyone here. 🙂
John, I learned a ton about how to pastor from Chuck Smith. I mean a ton. Lessons that guide me in a variety of ways. Lessons most of the guys involved in this battle never bothered to learn, sadly.
I can’t say I learned any theological insights from the man – and I did have to unlearn many things when I later discovered he was simply wrong…often (though not always) because of an ignorance in the language of the text of Scripture.
Chuck could not properly pronounce the Greek alphabet.
And as a result I spent several years while at Costa Mesa correcting more than a few friends and those I taught there on the proper pronunciation of the name of the building the church bought from Raytheon in 1996.
Let that sink in before you claim Chuck exegeted anything. (Exegesis by definition involves the original language to the original audience first)
And I loved the man.
In today’s post Christian, or some would say anti Christian America, growing a church is NOT like it used to be. No more ripples of the revival to fill up the pews like in the 60’s-90’s. Whether you have an “anointing” or gifting; It’s not the same anymore. It seems the tickling ears church’s are the ones that are large while the churches who faithfully plod along teaching God’s Word are small. The Remnant is always smaller. But I’d much rather be part of that remnant.
My husband is a gifted Bible teacher/pastor, yet we struggle to grow our church beyond 50, which is the norm for a midsize church these days. So to define success by numbers especially in our American culture, is stupid and unspiritual.
Matt 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.…
Well I think I’ll take Chuck Smith’s insights on scripture over Steve Wright’s, who is Steve Wright…
Exegesis
plural exegesesplay \-ˈjē-(ˌ)sēz\
: exposition, explanation; especially : an explanation or critical interpretation of a text
Copy/pastes and then hurling insults.w e have reached stage 2 of the Kubker-Ross model.
Chuck Smith was only a man. There are many fine Pastors and teachers out there who are not famous not have megachurches.
As alluded to previously, the fame and high attendance seem to be reserved for older churches or those that tickle the ears.
Btw, Steve, it’s nice to see your thoughts…we heard your name while we attended CCCM.
So now we’re playing the most famous name / biggest attendance is the most “anointed” game. The more famous name is to be definitively trusted over the pastor whose name we don’t know. Geez, how utterly ridiculous can we get. I guess that means Joel Osteen must be the most anointed of all preachers now. Let’s run to him to get the best exegesis. Man, if I was just more positive and faithful in the words I speak, I’d be getting those close parking spots at the mall all the time.
I get the whole “anointed-is-hyperbole” issue.
But for us to come on here and say “Chuck Smith, eh…”
“But Steve Wright, awesome!”
Well, um, that brings a smile to my face.
Such hypocrisy, everybody plays the numbers game, numbers are indicative of something, if Joel Osteen or the Mormons have numbers it doesn’t negate the reality that we all look to numbers to tell us something, you ever heard, the word “multitudes” in the Bible, “and he fed three thousand with two loaves and fish,” the numbers meant something, if it had said “he fed three people with two loaves and a fish,” it would be no big deal, or when the Bible says “multitudes were added to the church,” etc. So when there was a bald guy baptizing thousands of hippies in Corona Del Mar, it meant something just like when the multitudes were going out to the wilderness to hear John the Baptist preach or when Billy Graham would draw tens of thousands to his crusades or Greg Laurie with the Harvest Crusades, or when you go into a Lutheran church and it’s half empty, it means something. Oh the hypocrisy, I remember when the author of this blog was salivating with glee at the thousands that were frequenting his blog during the Bob Coy debacle, so whatever your job or business may be if there is suddenly a huge demand for what you do and your sales skyrocket you can be sure that numbers will mean something. Now some on this blog are stating that there is no such thing as a special anointing, and these numbers in all cases are drawn by the trickery and suave tongues of slick and cunning men, well I would say to you go back to the Bible and look up the men and women that God anointed with special gifts and callings to carry out the work of the kingdom, but I guess in your mind a middle aged bald guy who spoke simply about the mysteries of God’s word was very slick.
“or when you go into a Lutheran church and it’s half empty, it means something.”
We measure church growth by how the church itself is growing in the faith – the individual person.
Numbers do not equate anointing! No matter how you look at it. Being a smooth speaker does not equate anointing! The most anointed pastor I’ve ever known had a small church and knew his flock by name everyone of them.
Now Jesus on the other hand…..He was anointed! Is anointed! And knows us each by name and how many hairs we have. That is anointing!
John Donne,
The reason I have engaged you to this extent is the sincere hope that seeing an example of the animosity towards Brian, and the REAL petty, bitter, reasons therefore, will be so off putting to average people on the fence, that the animosity to Brian will diminish further. You have not let me down, but I am going to depart the conversation with a final word.
You ignore my comment about Greek only to cut and paste an online dictionary definition of a word that we are using in the context of the Bible (a book written by God in Hebrew and Greek). It is clear you do not know what you are talking about, but it is clear you have a pride in that ignorance – the same sort of pride that has often been a bane on Calvary Chapel and which a whole lot of us have fought against over the years.
You see, there’s guys who brag against all human education, saying “All we need is the Holy Spirit” (forgetting the Holy Spirit works in many lives, past and present, and He teaches through others – just as pastors teach others in the congregation). Then there are the guys with that anointing you talk about and who grew massive churches only to realize “I ought to go to school and learn some stuff if I am the pastor of this huge church” and so now have graduate degrees from theological schools.
The irony is that CC is big on promoting schools of ministry and Bible Colleges, so really it is with the specific individual who says “Learning for thee, not for me” and wants that learning to be just an echo chamber. Sounds like you, John.
The dual irony is Chuck Smith NEVER insisted you teach all the verses like him. I taught this 12th apostle thing at CCCM and wasn’t relieved from my ministry or called into Chuck’s office to get chewed out. He gave great freedom in teaching to encourage men to step out and go for it, figuring true heresy would get back to him anyway. In fact, other than certain doctrines like eschatology and spiritual gifts, along with foundational Christian beliefs about God, the cross etc. you will hear different CC pastors teach the Bible differently on many occasions.There isn’t even an agreed view on eternal security among CC pastors, and never has been.
I think Chuck was a brilliant Bible teacher – an elderly man (when I was there) who never moved, holding to the pulpit almost the entire time, just turning his head from side to side to address the room and he could captivate me for 45 minutes like it was 30 seconds.
But that does not change the fact he still didn’t know how to pronounce the Greek word, logos.
If you want to trust Chuck’s insights – then trust his choice of Brian to pastor his church at CCCM. See how simple that is?
(as for who I am. I am nothing. An educated, prosperous business owner on top of the world but who was lost in sin and rescued at age 25 by Jesus Christ, for Whom I have sought to dedicate whatever was positive in my life, sacrificing the rest of it on His altar, to give myself in service to Him. I’m one of those rare guys in CC where becoming a pastor was a step down in this world and not a promotion….but we’re not “of this world” anymore, are we?)
Steve,
This guy is a good example of what CCA is all about. RUN!
I really see where John Donne is coming from. He’s made some great points.
But for us to come on here and say “Chuck Smith, eh…”
“But Steve Wright, awesome!”
Well, um, that brings a smile to my face.
————————————————-
CostcoCal…the only place you are reading that is in your mind.
Good grief.
This conversation is a perfect microscopic example of what BB was dealing with…and why he saw it as a waste of time to continue arguing…and thus taking away from what the Holy Spirit has laid on him to do.
I remember when the author of this blog was salivating with glee <<<
Never happened. He was dumbfounded on occasion, but never gleeful.
If you are impressed by numbers and believe that’s where you will find anointing, better join the Roman Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church, numbers One and Two on the numbers list.
“Oh the hypocrisy, I remember when the author of this blog was salivating with glee at the thousands that were frequenting his blog during the Bob Coy debacle, so whatever your job or business may be if there is suddenly a huge demand for what you do and your sales skyrocket you can be sure that numbers will mean something.”
You know nothing about how this blog works.
When there is an explosion of the Coy sort, my life becomes quite unpleasent.
There is no financial benefit to me, but it demands even more time than it usually does.
It brings anything but glee, it only brings added responsibility to report fairly and without error…as we did on the Coy situation and as we’re doing now on this one.
You see, when we report these stories there will always be someone like you spreading misinformation under a pseudonym that I have to make sure are corrected, lest people say they heard these lies on the Phoenix Preacher.
In the New Testament we read that all believers are “anointed”.
That’s all we read.
The rest of this old canard is Pentecostal tradition, not biblical exposition.
Never happened. He was dumbfounded on occasion, but never gleeful.
——————————————
Amen Xenia. It is amazing to me that the fear of the Lord does not check some of these people from saying gross falsehoods to slander the brethren. Yet, the fear of man then keeps them from saying what is objective truth, descriptive and not insulting at all.
In fact, (and John feel free to look at the April 2014 archives of the blog) Michael used the immediate aftermath of the Coy scandal and the extra high traffic he was getting at the time to publish a series of guest articles centered around topics like brokenness, restoration, accountability in pastoral leadership.
Rather than glee, there was directly expressed frustration that a blogger had to report things that the church itself refused to disclose (until they had to).
Costco,
I’ve rarely been accused of lifting up Steve Wright.
I have been accused of the opposite.
Honesty demands that truth be told…and that truth is that Wright is far more educated and has led a far more moral life in front of God than Chuck Smith.
God used Chuck Smith in an historical way…but those truths remain true.
This whole attack on Brodersen has been built on the same kind of accusations that Donne threw at me.
That’s what’s scandalous and should bring shame to those involved and those who won’t stand publicly against it.
As I read what Dusty said,
“Now Jesus on the other hand…..He was anointed! Is anointed! And knows us each by name and how many hairs we have. That is anointing!”
…I am again reminded that the truest test of the quality of this thing we call “Christianity” is not in the gathering of congregations, but rather in the personal, in the moment to moment, in the real engagement with The Infinite-Personal God Who’s presence we are blessed to be inescapable immersed in. It is merely each of our blessed responsibility/opportunity to continue to remove impediments and remind each other that “Jesus is here!”
That is why it’s important to keep our non theatrical communication of this faith we say is centered in the Bible to be without Old English of the King James flavor, to seek to make our interactions, teaching and preaching likewise, so the common person can embrace Jesus without the flourish and the posturing that bred a culture that some supposed “anointed” person is required to bring “the true meaning” of scripture to us when the plain reading within context and culture does just that.
I gave up on a supposed anointed priesthood who can turn wine and wafer into Blood and Body while looking wistfully at Jesus’ mother and right past Him.
I refuse to support the ChuckSmithSrPapacy and the CCA Vatican which declares itself the body of arbitration to issue Imprimatur on Dove-Branded pastors while it looks right past Jesus to wistfully dream of the mythic PapaChuck.
“looking right past Jesus” … everyone of us should hear those words and think on them… cuz we’re all guilty, i think – dunno, tho, do i
Steve Wright;
What is interesting to me is how ignorant you are of your own founder’s teachings, as you ascribe the teaching of Paul being the chosen apostle rather than Matthias to a few fringe CC groups who are totally ignorant, not even realizing it was CS himself who taught this, and then how you come across so arrogantly and condescending, Steve Wright i don’t really think you ever sat through Chuck Smith’s teaching as he went through the whole Bible, and if you did you weren’t paying attention.
MLD
That is a comforting thought we tell ourselves to help us remain in a dead denomination, and under BB it will be Calvary Chapelites who will be telling themselves this as well in a few years.
John Donne,
What is interesting to me is that you have failed to answer even one of the answers to your slander, but you also keep posting them under an assumed name.
You are a coward and a tool of the devil.
And…just a tool.
John Donne
You might find this to be impossible to believe. But Chuck Smith was only a human and actually made mistakes during his preaching occasionally.
Yeah, only Jesus has all the answers right.l
Boy, John Donne really has drunk the Kool aid all the way to the dregs…
John Donne,
What are your credentials? What have you done? Have you ever sat under Chuck Smith (in person, not via “Chuck tapes) and for how long? How about Brian Brodersen?
Btw:. Look back thru the recent “cc split” related articles…and especially the comments to find out more about some of the posters here.
John Donne,
“That is a comforting thought we tell ourselves to help us remain in a dead denomination, ”
Look I know you are sad and you are just lashing out – but I do need you to explain what you mean by a “dead denomination.”
This past Sunday in approximately 30,000 Lutheran churches around the country – God’s word was preached, people heard the absolution for their sin, they had their prayers heard and the sacraments were properly administered.
Which part of that describes a ‘dead denomination’?
You don’t hear your own arrogance Steve Wright…I know more than Chuck Smith because I can pronounce the Greek alphabet, comman Steve you couldn’t hold a candle to Chuck Smith, the lessons of life, the keen observations that permeate his messages is the stuff of legend, a wave of refreshment that came through and that we were truly blessed to have been refreshed by. His teaching style and balanced teaching on the gifts of the Spirit transformed our understanding and brought balance to the craziness we saw in the Pentecostal movement and the dry and boring rote of the mainline denominations were challenged to their foundation, his founding of Maranatha music changed worship music for our times. So go ahead Steve Wright and correct his Greek, but apparently the Holy Spirit doesn’t care so much that he misspronounced a Greek word here and there, but maybe that’s your true gift Steve correcting Grammar and Syntax and Greek pronunciation. Because one thing you’ve shown you really didn’t know Chuck Smith’s teachings as well as you think you do, when a simple view of Acts 1 that Chuck held was unbeknownst to you as proceeding from Chuck.
And yes Steve I trust CS insights on scripture over yours, but thank you for misquoting me to try to make a point, when I said;
“Well I think I’ll take Chuck Smith’s insights ON SCRIPTURE over Steve Wright’s, who is Steve Wright…”
Chucks Smith’s insights on scripture were peerless, sadly when it came to people, as an older man he was duped into leaving BB in charge of CCCM pressured by nepotistic reason, and yet we see his struggle as he also left his sons in the faith to oversee the movement.
His struggle is the same that befell the patriarchs of the children of Israel to have to choose between the son of the flesh (nepotism), and the sons of the faith. Time will bear this out and the truth will be revealed!
I’m now convinced that John Donne is, in fact, John Randall. :D. 😀
I say let Chuck Smith’s bones go to the highest bidder, and everyone eles can just get on with their life.
Never seen so much hero worship.
Steve Wright, you still sitting on the fence, or have you received an answer to your letter?
LOL Bob. Amazing isn’t it.
Anyone reading this thread can see how John is misrepresenting me and what I have said here. More significantly, anyone who knows the blog recognizes no individual in the last 8 years has consistently and repeatedly spoken up for Chuck, defended, clarified, corrected others who were unfairly or incorrectly critical of him. The sheer tonnage of crap I have had to swallow around here as a result would choke an elephant.
Likewise I have shared my testimony of all the man meant to me and all I learned from him. The anonymous John Donne shows up with his fake name out of the blue and his behavior in this thread demonstrates well what is behind the false witness and petty, jealous, destructive attack on Brian, a brother serving the Lord.
But I experienced this before. Some of you readers would be amazed at the vile some of these longtime pastors can spit out in email or private conversations and the effort and anger expressed if such behavior is shared with others. 180 degrees opposite of Scripture where accusations are brought before witnesses and, as Jesus said, I have spoken openly.
I would argue John is not being a great witness here in the way he is expressing himself, but John, since you are too cowardly to come out from under your mask, such things I’m sure do not concern you.
Last word is yours and no doubt you will have one…
Steve, you do not have to defend yourself on this blog. This guy is obiously is a kool aid drinker and that has been evident since he got here.
* Pastor Broderson was impatient and unkind to the sheep whose care he was undertaking.
* Kathy Gipson, beloved by my children, was fired overnight (from a non-insider’s perspective); my children’s choir disrupted with tears when they were informed from one week to the next that Kathy would not ever be returning and that there was no way to say goodbye.
* Our service, Wednesday night, was immediately transformed into a performance driven concert, the likes I saw once (on a smaller scale) at a coffee shop in Venice.
* I went up to Pastor Broderson after this first Wednesday night to ask for prayer in the transition because I was unsure and nervous. My genuine plea was met with condescension and I was dismissed with a perfunctory prayer.
I remain in prayer regarding this entire situation. I don’t in any way wish to be disrespectful, but would like to humbly suggest that if Pastor Broderson would’ve been a more patient, gentle shepherd to the actual sheep (the ones unsure about him), he would have had a much easier time. Instead, he chose to treat his arrival as a coming out party of sorts: be damned what parts of the local Body are comfortable with; there will be no transition period; I am here NOW.
If anyone knows of a church, Calvary Chapel or not, that is not Reformed and is relatively conservative socially in the Murrieta/Temecula area (we have moved from Costa Mesa area), would you please post about it?
Blessings in Christ Jesus to you all,
A wife and mother
Dear E. Munro, I must comment on your post. Whenever there is a new Pastor that takes over, there will be changes. People just don’t like change period, no matter how it’s done. And I’m sure Brian and his staff have gotten a lot of flack from it and are probably weary of complaining sheep who can’t roll with the changes. Chuck was stuck in a time warp for many years. So for Brian to finally bring LONG NEEDED changes was probably something he couldn’t wait to do. Please be patient with Pastors too; like you want them to be with you. They are under a lot of warfare and need our prayers and patience, especially during a transition. I’ve heard stories about old time people who were serving there, that were asked to step down and they didn’t handle it well. Brian has every right to bring in the kind of changes to worship and the other ministries he wants to and old time servants should not think their positions are permanent. No one should take that for granted. We have to make room for the younger generation and pass the baton off to them. I know it’s NOT easy to accept this but it is essential if we want to see the next generation furthering the Kingdom. Plus, you need to give the pastoral staff the benefit of the doubt in regards to people you see being removed. Most do not know the real goings on behind the scenes in the church and the problem people they have to deal with. No matter how beloved they are. I’ve seen many good and great Christians turn ugly whenever there is change of leadership in ministries. Yes, Satan even uses good Christians. May the Lord lead you in your search for your next Bible teaching, Christ exalting church. Merry Christmas!
EMunro
Sorry to hear about your experience and how a transition affected your family and servants leader friends. Having served in pastoral ministry in several CC Fellowships I understand the pressures and criticisms that fall upon those in leadership.
But that is no excuse for how many leaders have executed the transition ; structuring and resourcing it with very little regards for those effected by it.
I have lived in Temecula for almost a decade and and am aware of the many good churches in the entire valley from Temecula to Elsinore.
I would love to meet you and your husband for coffee and pray with you recommend some churches after finding out more of your family needs and dynamics .
Victorious, thank you for that comment. Wasnt even to me and i was encouraged!
Dusty-
So glad you were encouraged and even more glad to see you being yourself, extending your heart to others and upholding them in prayer.
I have been reading this site for several years but never posted before. My wife (E Munro above) went ahead and posted, so given the responses she received I will speak up. I have so much more to say on this subject but I want to start first with a response to victorious’ gracious invitation. We’d value your input on the situation and churches in the area. Not sure how to further that though…
Its basically the reason we have gone ahead and posted here: we have been fish out of water in the three years since Chuck passed and we left CCCM, and we are looking for both a new church and wanting to discuss how this whole situation is affecting real people in the pews and what we have (and can continue to) learn from it.
Secondly, I’d like to clarify Truth Lovers response. Were you implying that we were being “used by Satan”? because we were speaking about our experiences @ CCCM as Brian took over? I really hope not, but that’s the way we took it. We feel more like we have been oppressed and attacked by the enemy since we made the decision to move to the Temecula valley and leave CCCM, and are struggling believers trying to continue our walk who have yet to find support and a place to fit in.
As I mentioned, I have a lot more I’d like to say about our experiences @ CCCM and thereafter; I’ll leave that for another day. I just want to say that I’ve been reading here long enough to have learned that Chuck and CC were/are far from perfect. I think Steve Wright said it well when he mentioned a few criticisms of Chuck, but followed with a declaration that he loved him dearly. Our family loved Chuck as dearly as it is possible to love someone who you have only spoken to in person 3 times. While I have learned here that there were many things about the way he did Church that ultimately allowed a number of people to be very hurt, there were also many things about the way he did it that we miss dearly to this day.
Maybe there isn’t really a truly compelling need to go on about our experiences, even though I would like to; as I write I realize that what I am mainly looking for is help and encouragement in finding a place where God wants us to be as much as we felt he wanted us @ CCCM for the season he did. Maybe this is an odd place to go looking for that, but I have learned that people here are a pretty encouraging lot with a wide variety of perspectives.
Munro,
If you send me your email address I’ll get you hooked up with Victorious.
phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
I would like to say to Munro that CC is mostly a good place to worship the Lord. But I understand the feeling of not fitting in for some reason. We left CC 4 yrs. ago and have found a wonderful church where the word of God is preached by a pastor who is like the puritan preachers of old.CC has some pretty glaring problems as far as leadership is concerned. When it comes to church discipline, over site of new pastors, it doesn’t exist.We started a new CC and with in a year almost all people that helped start it were gone, (20+). All due to the pastor refusing to admit he lied and being led by a deceiver in our midst. Extremely hurtful with no follow up by the pastor who was supposed to be over seeing us.
CC was a great experience but glad to be out of there. God’s choice for us.
#152 Munro, I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear in my response to your wife. No, I DID NOT mean you two had been used by Satan! It was the gossip of other disgruntled individuals she had mentioned that I was referring to, but in a general sense. All I was saying is the devil can use anyone of us no matter how well intended or godly we are. Especially during a time of transition. I was just trying to get her to see the situation from another perspective; to give better understanding.
I do wish you well in your search for a new church home. Just like a car; go out and test drive some and you’ll find the one that feels like home.
God please help us. We need the “gift of tears.” We need deep conviction of sin. We need a a 3 year drought…so the rain can come.
I took to the internet to find more information about the CCA/CCCM split. The articles and links on Phoenix Preacher have been very helpful. Thank you Michael and thank you pastor Rolph for shedding light on the subject.
Steve Wright, you are one self-righteous, arroagant, rude, narcissistic A-hole!! You cannot handle any perspective opposing your own like real chilvarous gentlemen can. Shame on you. You owe John Donne multiple apologies.
John Donne, everything you shared about the concerns of BB and his obviously documented itinerary are so right on. They are all appropiate and alarming concerns indeed. The Steve Wrights are choosing blindness over reality and truth. Thank God you have proven good discernment. Apparently your “prosperous businessman” and self-appointed nemesis, who stepped down in the world when becoming a pastor, has nothing better to do, like build up God’s sheep, than to slander-blog your every comment (and of course ‘overseeing’ everyone else’s too) all day. You go against the flow of the mindsets here – which acclaimed Dave Rolph’s comments on diversity while evidencing a severe lack of it where your code is concerned.These calvary chapelites are arrogant to the core ….
Correction – … where your voice is concerned …
FM,
I would just like to make the point, when you say “Steve Wright, you are one self-righteous, arroagant, rude, narcissistic A-hole!!” That here at the PP he is our “self-righteous, arroagant, rude, narcissistic A-hole!! ”
So show some respect. 😉
MLD, he shows no respect!! And would seem no one here holds him accountable for his lack of it.
FM,
Steve Wright spoke graciously and truthfully on this thread.
You, on the other hand, have demonstrated that you are an idolatrous lout and one of the spiritual vermin who subsist on false accusations and hillbilly theology.
You have no place here.
Michael,
Wow, listen to you !! Sound exactly like what one could expect from a CC elitist. Go love on your own – even as the pagans do.
FM,
I am many things but CC is not one of them.
I am an Anglican, thank you.
I may well be an elitist also…I prefer to think of it as the gift of discriminating taste…
Michael,
An admitted elitist, well that’s nothing to repent from!! Sin by any other name is still a sin, and by the sounds of it, a deeply rooted one.
FM,
You obviously don’t understand satire…or theology.
The character assassination of Brian Brodersen is the sin you should be worrying about…
Those who think like FM remind me of why I left CC.
Michael and MLD, You two are too funny
Hi Bob, hope you are well.
Doing well Dusty! Thank you for asking.
🙂
Michael,
I have to correct you – I’ve done no character assasination of BB. None whatsoever and it’s quite unfair of you to accuse me so. While I disagree with the direction he wants to move cccm or with those he chooses to associate with (of whom CS would never do), I would not presume to assassinate his character. It really doesn’t make you look good to assassinate my theology either (I haven’t even expressed my beliefs), you are very filled with venom. Is it your habit to attack anyone whose not on your narcissistic bandwagon? Matter of fact, there is no theology discussion on this thread to speak of, it’s a dumping-ground where it seems all your trolling cohorts attack anyone who would raise a concern outside your scope of thought. That’s unfortunate, because John Donne raised concerns (in a kind Spirit) about BB and the future cccm that no one else would address in a Christian spirit – instead he was abused by those in this forum. I do not attend CC but don’t forget that many in their congregations are deeply hurt by recent events.
The faux John Donne is a full of it as a Christmas goose.
Unlike you , I’ve done tons of research and have written about this mess since before the mess happened.
There are many articles discussing the impending split going all the way back to 2012.
I did primary source research, not the nonsense that passes for truth among the Brodersen critics.
You are not going to find a sympathetic ear here…so go elsewhere and wait for the next episode of “Honey Boo-Boo” to assuage you.
Good day.
FM
There’s no theology discusion on this blog? Can’t believe you said that!
BS,
You misread – didn’t say this blog
Unless you think I’m full of BS, I am referred to as Bob Sweat. ?
Michael,
Many have written about “this mess” who also claim to be primary researchers. And there are still conflicting stories. Guess you’re above them. But I prefer the primary researchers who are up close and personal with the events, and some of these also are those of whom I personally know.
If only you coulda given JD intellectual responses without the unloving, judgemental airs and abuse …. at least you coulda passed for a born again …
My apologies Bob Sweat, I wasn’t saying you were full of bs, although I can see why you might’ve perceived it that way. Sorry.
When the CCA yahoos come on here complaining about the “direction that BB is taking CC” it’s a theological discussion.
They are upset over BB telling the truth about teaching verse by verse through Numbers and backing off on the constant ringing of the Rapture bell.
Because they can’t hold a real theological or methodological discussion with anyone outside their inbred clique, they end up condemning you to perdition and moving on.
FM was right on cue…
FM,
My reporting record speaks for itself.
Now the time has come to bid you adieu…you are now banned.
I am a huge fan of CC ministries and attribute my daily growth in the Lord to the invaluable chapter by chapter, verse by verse preaching/teaching of His Word via CC Radio (107.9 His Wave). My 47 years journey as a Christian had been severely jaded by personal encounters of distasteful and outright ungodly behavior exhibited by church adminstrators as related to church politics.
I was so blessed by this article. “Church” is all about God’s love, salvation by redemption, and the gift of eternal life. We have become so consumed with “doing” His work that we often got off-track in our purpose to know, love, and serve God. For those of us who became “born-again” during the Jesus Movement, may we return to and maintain our first love in the short time we have left on this side of Heaven.
calvary is no different then any other denomination its full of flawed people, we aren’t special
just regular eople, anytime people objectify any pastor thats a problem
i’ve been at a local Calvary for about 20 years, we are very regimented, no spontinaity, very predictable even down to almost the exact time for every aspect of the service…the congregation hasn’t grown but is dwindling…..kinda of sad
Having structure, order and predictability does NOT equate to being void of the Spirit of God. God moves silently through His Word when it is preached.
I really like this article and the non conformist inclusive nature of the writer, and as proven the attitude I suppose of most of the folks in this movement. I discovered kwave on the radio sseveral yrs ago in our first furlough year, and it’s all I listen to since. I love being spiritually fed in English, this station is non stop refilling for me. I read this article bc I feel I know the author thru his great sermons, as with gracious words, and well, everyone.
We been to all the churches in our area, I jst love sitting in the back, being moved to tears silently and being fed thru all of them, to the hungry soul even every bitter thing is sweetI love all the kwave pastors, and as Jesus made manifesto, “splits happen” or we would all still be Jews. However, I feel it’s very small to diss your very brethren as the scripture is clear on.
However
This was enlightening reading this. I used to attend Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa back in 1975 to 1983. And have attended CC here in Liverpool NY on various occasions.
My husband and I were under Pastor Chuck’s teaching for about 16 years until we moved. i thought that I was a Christian but through Chuck’s loving preaching and giving out the Word, the entire Word, I realized that I was only a goody-two-shoes! I forever will be grateful for his care of the flock and hope to not only meet him in Heaven, but to be a brother of his! So sorry to read the put-downs of opinions here by “Christians!” One thing that I know is that God loves all of us and that I love HIM and Chuck Smith!
What lies this guy tells! You see what he did. He make up “privet statements” to say that Chuck did not support CCA. He also make up these things about Chuck non-conformist and used story of the child. Chuck was old & they lied to him to get power and money.
Dave Rolph is angry, and he lies for Brian. He talks on radio like mad boss.
Who does that clown think he is? I met him at a Church in Jersy, and he droned for 35 minutes like my English teacher. He was rude and thought he was all that, and when asked about his views on the passage he taught, He said I was in sin because I did not agree. He despises eternal security. I do not trust what he said up there, and neither should you.
First off, that “clown” has been a friend of mine for almost 25 years.
Second, he forgot more about Chuck Smith before breakfast this morning than anyone commenting here.
Third, Dave would never tell anyone they were in sin because of a doctrinal difference, so you are a liar.
Have lovely day.
Mike Kessler is one of the most ignorant, most immature bag of bones I’ve ever heard in my life. Love can and hearing the gospel but cannot support because of Mike’s prejudiceness , please get rid of him yesterday!!!
Calvary Chapel in the beginning of the Jesus Movement was, and can still be, the real, undiluted deal. Christ was in charge, His Spirit unhindered by man’s ways (disciples of all walks of life, who let Jesus “bury the old man daily”), with a powerful love flowing, without condemnation; saying come, to all. No politics; just pure Jesus, and sharing the gospel to an open-minded, hungry for Christ, generation that tried everything else; Pastor Chuck, simply with a heart for a lost generation of precious young people; trusting Jesus daily; and they came… Jesus has always been ready with open arms, ready to do it again, and again; He just needs “a few, good followers” who are willing to trust their all to Him, with Jesus captain of their ship; not making it a business “Selling Jesus”… Revelations 2:29; Let him who has ears hear what the Spirit is saying right now… He is no fool, who gives up what he cannot keep, to gain, what he cannot lose. Jesus is coming people, and may God Bless every one of you!!!
Because Jesus says: Trust in Me, my child. I have given you, a seal, that can never be removed, God know how unworthy, I am, only in Jesus, Devine Holy Spirt, 40+ years, to honor your Jesus Christ. I love because God so love use first. There is no good in myself, the blood of ,your eternal love, Father God, you have never changed, there no other way, take not Your Holy Spirt from me, to God be all the honor,praise, victory, let your perfect will be done, in Jesus Christ,Name. Miss Grace
I can’t not bear witness, as the Holy Spirit, 40+ years, Pastor Smith, may have move to higher grounds, but to say this ,movement, is from God, Calvary Chaple, has been by God plan, this change, to gain numbers,for financial increase, Is evilness, and as Gods child, anointed, this is misleading, beware, attempting to make ,or undo God density, counterfeits, will be put into confusion,from my experience, oil and water don’t mix. Almighty God, ministry, unable to be distorted,by lies, misleading God well to be carry on, the glorify Jesus Christ,
I can’t not bear witness, as the Holy Spirit, 40+ years, Pastor Smith, may have move to higher grounds, but to say this ,movement, is from God, Calvary Chaple, has been by God plan, this change, to gain numbers,for financial increase, Is evilness, and as Gods child, anointed, this is misleading, beware, attempting to make ,or undo God density, counterfeits, will be put into confusion,from my experience, oil and water don’t mix. Almighty God, ministry, unable to be distorted,by lies, misleading God well to be carry on, the glorify Jesus Christ, This is not a repeat, it is a extension,with much prayer