Linkathon!

Linn says:

So many great links…where to start?
Keswick theology-the first years of my Christian life were steeped in it. My church preached the “higher life” and there was a yearly spiritual life conference, always with an altar call of dedication to a deeper spiritual life. What I eventually came away from is not so much the “higher life,” but much more about living in a consistent relationship with God.
A LIfe Written in the Margins-as the Greatest Generation continues to fade away, it’s so important to remember their stories and what they fought for. They really did tear down an evil empire that might have consumed the whole year (and almost consumed the entire Jewish race).
Last comment on Julie Roys (although so many of the other links were really good)-I’m not sanctioning the relationship she had, and how it ever got to print boggles my mind. But having had one discipling relationship in my own life almost get our of hand due to my own emotions and sense of responsibility towards that person running amok, I think that churches need to take more responsibility for helping volunteer staff deal with difficult situations. You are told to “care” for this person, and not much other guidance is given. The concerns you have for that person begin to take over your life, and no one is there to talk about boundaries, enabling, or needing to let natural consequences (for that person) take their course. i work with my church’s lay counseling program, and I’m responsible to document sessions, which are then submitted to my supervisor (and then kept confidential). The director is as concerned about me as he is concerned about the person I am helping.

I also wonder if Watchkeep has some other kind of hidden agenda against Julie given that she doesn’t support the LGBTQ movement or the ordination of women. It just seemed strange to me that those comments keep coming up from the blog writer. I’ve always respected Julie for her excellent reporting on church issues. Her book does need to be addressed, but i don’t think it warrants the end of her writing/blogging career, either.

Officerhoppy says:

Speaking of theology, after several years of wrestling with sovereignty vs responsibility I have finally found a place where I am comfortable with the tension. As I move forward in life, making decisions, not knowing their outcome; I am Arminian. But as I turn around and look back on my life, where I am, and how I got here—I am a Calvinist!

How’s that..hahaha

Shaun says:

Did anyone else find this section of the CHM article weirdly out of place?

“While CHSMs may not have the same impact on our society overall as homeschooling and Christian schools, they nevertheless provide a preview of the kind of society the Christian Right seeks to remake America into if given the chance: one nation, under God, where white supremacist patriarchy reigns, public schools are gone or Christianized, and the “blessed” decide who is worthy of health care.”

Reuben says:

Having been a student of Winber for a long time before I burnt out and ran to a worse dumpster fire called Calvary Chapel, I know for a fact he is spinning at 1000 rpm in his grave.

Reuben says:

Here is the thing though. Wimber emphatically believed in the work of thee Holy Spirit, which clearly did not happen here. This was simply payback for drawing members away.

Reuben says:

Dread,

The music was not ever the only thing. Chuck could not stand outbursts of the Holy Spirit, Wimber welcomed it. You have mechanized something that simply did not happen. Vineyard Music was a byproduct of leaving CC.

Dread says:

Rueben

The music came straight from those that Gullicksen had gathered. Wimber received them when he received the lead of the churches that Gullicksen named.

I am very well aware of the charismatic divide between Chuck and John. Lonnie Frisbee was the catalytic spark in both groups. It was 1980 that Frisbee exploded a bomb at Anaheim the way he had in Costa Mesa a dozen years earlier.

I’m not making the music to be the issue. But the music as a cash cow was indeed the offense that was raised later by Fromm and others.

And John was considered a pirate for the conference he had in 1982 right after the infamous split at the April gathering at Lake Arrowhead convened by Smith.

One year later Smith wrote Charisma vs Charismania. So I know what the fight was over. And I know that ultimately the battle coalesced over other things.

Dread says:

And Rueben

You’d have a hard time distancing from the “son of thunder” moniker.

Dread says:

*Sorry Reuben

Reuben says:

I mean it was a smear to justify lies, wars, and absolute separation. A further division of Christianity, which Christianity does…

Dread says:

Reuben

EMDR is a gift of God for healing and quite a blessing. But thou thunderest and trembling follows. I don’t mean that as a criticism.

Bob Sweat says:

Wimber also caused division in the Friends Church. He was dismissed from Yorba Linda Friends Church. Several Friends pastors left with him. Bob Fulton was one. I know that Bob was still at the Vineyard on La Palma when I was living in Yorba Linda in 2004.

Dread says:

Yeah I don’t buy into that at all. There was not much of a congregation when the Scotts arrived. Anaheim was in decline for 25 years. Correct me if you have other info.

There is nothing sad about the absence of congregational rule. What’s sad is it’s presence. The congregation had a say for all those years of decline. They left. They can leave again.

Building centered churches build cathedrals. Free churches occupy spaces. There’s a whole issue to debate. It’s not that simple of course I know.

I think the Scott’s acted just like Wimber did in his day. The congregation did not “have a say” then either.

I know this is poking the bear —

Dread says:

The people who look worst are those who rushed to condemn and to call them thieves and robbers. The existing leadership of the Vineyard movement wasted no time letting us know how evil this is. This is nothing but the pure reality of a church tradition that favors independent autonomous entities voluntarily aligning. It is the game of mergers and acquisitions. It may be intrinsically ugly but for my taste it is not uglier than the opposite…

Churches align with denominations that over time abandon the moral codes and theological doctrines that molded them together. When local churches dissent they are controlled by title deed reversion clauses. The local people paid for the buildings, kept their faith, kept their moral codes and got abandoned

If Anaheim were anything other than the Vineyard flagship church this would be a blip on the screen.

The ugliness heaped upon the church leadership is its own poison.

Time will unfold this but everyone knows that John Wimber would not recognize the family he birthed. His kind is unique and they carry charisms that make it virtually assured the future will not preserve the past.

Frankly none of us knows what has fostered this step. I have waited a couple months for some clarifying word. None is likely to emerge. It will be interesting to watch the outcome of this bold and yet, offensive move.

Em says:

Srichar? Richard! ! ! Someday ill remember to proofread before hitting “post.”

EricL says:

Em,
Richard Nixon was a Quaker. There’s a strong community of them in Yorba Linda, where Nixon grew up. That city has the only mega-sized Friends congregation in the country. It is the same church that the original Wimber group came out of.

EricL says:

Dread,
I was involved with the Vineyard in the late 80s and early 90s and was even an elder at a Vineyard church plant. I attended quite a few Sunday evenings at Anaheim, since they were 1-2 hours away, depending on traffic.

I didn’t return to the Vineyard until about 6 years ago and now my wife and I are in the process of becoming a church planters with them. So obviously, we’ve found things we like about this tribe.

Is it different from my first round with them? Yes, but I would still call the Vineyard charismatic evangelicals. Some churches are more charismatic than others, but all at least claim an allegiance to the “radical middle” as Bill Jackson called it.

My wife and I feel there is room for us under this tent which sits at the overlap of “charismatic” and “evangelical”. They are accepting of us and are eager to see us succeed.

We’ve joined with them because we wanted support and accountability in our desire to church plant, and we have that with them.

Officerhoppy says:

Just caught. (By accident—I was driving) a piece of a sermon by Jack Hibbs. What a fear monger!

Then I caught a piece by the Wretched Radio guy. What a piece of work he is. Several months ago, he used a piece of art on his TV program in a negative way that was painted by my brother for a dramatic piece called “The Faces of Easter”. It was without my brother’s permission. He is a devoted Christian who often donates his gift to further the gospel and promote justice. I wrote the Wretched Radio guys several times about the matter—no response. All I wanted was a simple apology. But nothing. Not a damn thing.

I love and serve the Lord as best I can, but it’s his followers than make it difficult.

victorious says:

Re: Vineyard
Think what you want or call me what you want but I am planting within the Vineyard and in the interim while Sunday mornings are open , consider it a privilege to and will drive 90 minutes to have hands laid on me and prayed for by those who are gathering in backyards and moving through the anger stage of mourning and rediscovering the blessing of Jesus among them.

Bob Fulton may not be a part of the Vineyard USA National leadership but he is an 81 year old church planter sacrificing to see Jesus healing released among those precious to Him . It was a privilege to share a simple meal with him and a few others recently.

pstrmike says:

Bob S,

I didn’t know that Yorba Linda Friends showed Wimber the door, and that other Friends pastors followed him. That sheds some light.

Years ago I was talking with a friend who was once a Vineyard pastor and then became CC. He told me about a conversation he had with Chuck Smith about Wimber, and he said that Smith told him, in essence, you have to remember that Wimber was Quaker before he became CC. I’ve always thought that while the Quakers could become similar in the expression as charismatics (hence the name Quaker), my experience is that they are much more contemplative and much less charismatic. Almost every video or writing of Wimber would tell me he was charismatic to the core, and there was very little of contemplativeness in his teaching. Of course, I cannot say what his personal practice was about.

pstrmike says:

But neither can you discount the Quaker influence either. What’s that old saying, “those who get a hold of you first have the most influence over you?”

I had an interesting conversation last night with someone who knew Wimber (and some of the others) during his time at Yorba Linda Friends, but I will let him tell his own story. There is definitely a connection between what the Friends were about back then and a charismatic stream (one of many, but I don’t have to tell you that) that came forth from that group.

Having spent time with Quakers and having a different experience with them than the classical charismatic charismata, I’d love to explore those connections and possibly see where the streams, if in fact they did, diverge.

pstrmike says:

Speaking of Carol Wimber: An Open Letter to (what was then) Vineyard Anaheim board.

https://vineyardanaheim.wordpress.com/home/carol-wimbers-letter-to-vas-board/