Linkathon!

Dan from Georgia says:

Looking forward to reading the “Churches twice as likely to fear refugees as help them…” article.

Funny, I thought that God was for the foreigner, stranger, misplaced, downcast, and refugee. I guess fear Trumps faith.

Josh the Baptist says:

For 1,000 missionaries and their families, David Platt is the devil.

I, for one, appreciate his integrity. While hurting for those who have lost their positions, I understand that he was faced with the awful task of figuring out how to pay 5,000 missionaries when our churches had only given enough support for 4,000. It is a rough reality, but it is financial integrity and transparency like this that keeps us from falling into the GFA’s of the world.

Babylon's Dread says:

So apparently the morphing of the word ‘evangelical’ has disaffected Russell Moore. We have seen this before. Think of the changes in the way we refer to the American black community. So now we evangelicals see our designations being fouled and we want to re-imagine ourselves. It is kind of a conservative PC thing. Don’t call me evangelical, call me “gospel Christian.” I think he missed the memo that “Christian” is not so Christlike either.” We are all the same. We want to control the narrative by controlling the categorical designations.

Just Call Me For Supper Dread

Steve Wright says:

I watched a video just yesterday of hundreds of almost exclusively young Middle Eastern men literally seeking to break down the national barrier gate and storm into the country while the police in full riot gear tried to stop the invasion with as little violence and bloodshed as possible. Greek Macedonia border.

For 3 months we have watched Europe and stuff like this. If you missed it..here you go. (Note – from the Economist not some right wing rag)

Even as Mrs Merkel was speaking, about a thousand men, described by police as mainly migrants of north African or Arab origin, began massing between Cologne’s railway station and cathedral, where fireworks were about to begin. Around midnight they broke into clusters and formed huddles around women who had turned out to celebrate. They then set upon the women, harassing and groping them, stripping them of clothing and valuables. One victim was raped. Of the more than 600 women who have since come forward, many described the ordeal as “running the gauntlet”.

The news took four days to get out. Inexplicably, Cologne’s police initially reported “relaxed” festivities. (On January 8th Wolfgang Albers, the local police chief, was suspended for this and other failings.) The public news networks were also slow to pick up the story, providing grist for the conspiracy mills of populists who denounce the mainstream media as a politically correct “liars’ press”.
——————————————
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21688418-ultimate-victim-sexual-assaults-migrants-could-be-angela-merkels-liberal-refugee

Christ also said to be wise as serprents….it is easy in the comfort of an American living room to answer a phone survey…another thing to live in the chaos. And in Europe, the ramifications are just really beginning.

Josh the Baptist says:

The idea that conservatism is the problem in the SBC is…really interesting.

The SBC is 170 years old in May. Do you know of other organizations that old that continue growth?

EricL says:

Josh, the SBC has lost about a million members since 2005 when they topped out at about 16.5 million. It is still the largest Protestant denomination in the USA- by far- but it is sadly in decline. I don’t think the swing to neo-Calvinism and pastor-rule has helped any of that, but I’m biased against both.

I sincerely hope the Southern Baptists right their ship and start growing again. They are needed, so very needed.

Josh the Baptist says:

1. Yes, we are in decline. No doubt about that. It is a slow decline in comparison, but certainly a decline nonetheless.

2. Calvinists have always been a part of the SBC. There have been more higher profile SBC Calvinists in the past 30 years than there were in the 30 years prior. That is probably correct.

3. The vast majority of SBC churches are still congregational. VAST majority. There has never been a denominational rule on polity, but it is still dominated by congregationalists.

4. The SBC will not be righted, because there is nothing major wrong. We are just too old and too big. We won’t start growing again. All man-made organizations will come to an end. No problem there. There will be new guys with great ideas who love the lord, and there will be something different and better than the SBC. The gates of hell will not prevail, afterall.

EricL says:

If the Southern Baptists do changed their name, I hope they don’t follow in the footsteps of the much-smaller Baptist General Conference. They became “Converge Worldwide” in 2008. It makes them sound like a youth group or the latest hipster conference.

Talk about running away from your heritage…

dswoager says:

I think that it was for two different reasons though, thinking back on it. The first church was the result of a recent church plant merging with a dying church, so I think they were potentially having some identity issues… It also happened to be very personality driven, it was pastor so and so’s church rather than an SBC church. However, even though the church remained very pastor centric, as time went by, they seemed to fly the SBC flag more proudly.

The church plant was in an urban setting which was transitioning from being largely poor and black to being heavily young hipsters, and given that the SBC is known to lean heavily to the right, I think that we likely kept that pretty close to the chest just in interest of having people give us half a listen.

dswoager says:

Em, I’m in total agreement. I think that we have the tendency to lump way too many of the roles within the church into the person of the pastor. My first “lead pastor” was clearly an evangelist at heart who was obviously stretched in teaching, and didn’t seem very interested in much personal “shepherding”. The associate pastor at the same church was much closer to what I would consider to be a pastor, was able to teach, though I wouldn’t necessarily consider it his overall strength. The pastor of the church plant that I was a part of was actually officially the “teaching elder”, though he still accepted pastor like a title, his strength was as a teacher, to the point that I think he would have been better off as a professor than a pastor.

Francisco says:

Just to add a little to Eric’s #8

I’m learning that the basis of the Church as defined by Paul in 1Cor12 is a family. As shepherds we get to the point where we need to make a decision between having a strong platform ministry or the biblical pastoral ministry that Christ has called us to. We have to admit that a platform ministry is dependent upon filling seats while a pastoral ministry is dependent upon loving others and relationships with the members of the flock.

While people can still be blessed and grow within a mega church environment folks can often remain anonymous with a pattern of coming and going but without growing spiritually or accountability. Whether we want to admit or not the basis of the Megachurch model is a “platform ministry” often based upon showmanship and entertainment. In the larger church or mega church model it is actually the small group leaders who essentially are “the pastors” since they are the ones who know the members and who minister to them. While the larger corporate church model can often offer more activities and programs people often show up to do their performance and then go home without really connecting with others or growing spiritually.

On the other hand there many small Christ exalting fellowships that comprise the backbone of the Church but where the pastors effectively carry out their relational and functional responsibilities that come with the calling of a pastor.

Josh the Baptist says:

Great news, Michael! Take it easy.

JoelG says:

Awesome.

The Dude says:

Micheal
Glad to hear things when well.Relax and heal.You can catch up on your reading.

Babylon's Dread says:

fil,

Thanks friend… Depression IV was an attempt to push it some. I think mostly I have worn people out with the subject. But the posts will be there. Thought I would get more feedback on the part where I noted that depressive people do not consider all the effects as destructive and in fact feel some loss when it subsides.

Babylon's Dread says:

Josh,

I think you are sober minded about the SBC. I think you are also correct about the longevity and the inevitable lifecycle.

However, what I am saying is that the SBC seems to be more and more apt to drawing smaller circles. You need doors and bridges not walls and barriers. Let me push my thought.

First, the name, Southern Baptist Convention, to be unwilling to change that in an era where parochialism is so unfriendly to masses is irresponsible. The name tethers the SBC to history but it separates it from the mission. I am a Mississippian born, bred, educated and departed. I love my state like no other. I love the south but it carries so much baggage. If you are on mission to the world have a name that reflects it. Being a Southern Baptist in the West is like being a Red Sox fan in Yankee stadium. You can be tolerated but never really embraced. The refusal to change the name was destructive to the mission.

When I was in the SBC here in the west, not only did the churches NEVER refer to the SBC except in their huddles, they wouldn’t even plant churches with Baptist in the name. Every church plant I was aware of in my state avoided the name Baptist altogether. The church planters knew it was small-minded and small thinking. They also were not big givers to the mission agencies. Why? Partly, because you had to emphasize the denomination and thereby the NAME. I would love to see the stats on new churches mission giving today and 30 years ago.

Small circles, Baptist quickly moved to silence charismatics, (which they retreated on slightly) to silence women, and to silence dissent. Small circles… get small results.

Calvinism has indeed always been around. It mostly lived in the pop fringes of the denomination and hardly any of it was the 5 point kind. The purge of the seminaries brought doctrinaire calvinism and gave young pastors a passionate agenda to take into these traditional churches. Result? More church fights more splits more defections.

I would have gladly stayed in the SBC had there been a seat at the table. Had the SBC gone big tent instead of small they could have had a thriving charismatic renewal among their numbers. I would say without fear of contradiction that hundreds of thousands of SBC members defected over matters of the gifts of the Spirit.

A true big tent mentality would have included Calvinists, noncalvinists, charismatics, and traditionalist. Had the moderates, many of whom are hardly defectors from the faith, been given a place at the table they too might have stayed. Small circles, small thinking, small results.

Josh you are a good soul and I am not writing to reject you. I am simply saying that the Baptist are not declining by natural processes they are dying by sickness and amputation like a careless diabetic who won’t listen to the doctor.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

Big tent is not all it’s cracked up to be. In many cases just a minimal whiff that you have heard the name Jesus Christ get’s you in.
Hence the big Christian tent in the GOP.

Also, what if you think that “a thriving charismatic renewal among their numbers” is detrimental to the faith? Do you open up the tent just for the sake of the “big tent.”

You have been critical of Calvinists and dispensationalists over these many years — do they have an equal sitting under your big tent (your big tent being both your individual church and the Renewal Movement in general?

Growth for growth sake is probably sin. Inclusion for inclusion sake is probably sin.

Pastoral ministry is in the dumper – strategic ministry rules the day.

Babylon's Dread says:

MLD,

What you raise is what they thought.

We were cancerous and needed to be excised.

All I know is that Here I Stand… alive kicking and following Jesus… still.

I have indeed criticized both calvinists and dispensationalists my point on that matter is that when we were baptists the inclusion of both those groups was common. The denomination made no exclusive statements on those matters. We all lived in a big raucous tent.

The denomination has since codified calvinism in the institutions, excluded charismatics, ordaining women and clarified their narrowness on inerrancy. Before those things were left as local church matters.

The denomination is in decline because they chose to be in decline. Less people = less money = less mission support = the mess they are in. And Josh rightly says that it will not be reversed.

My point is that it was doctrinally unnecessary for them and it was culturally inevitable by their narrowness.

Jean says:

It would have been nice if the sermons were titled “Christ’s vision….” Vision casters make me uncomfortable.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

I have been looking further. Holy Cow! did I believe this?
Does anyone here think this is how you become a Christian?

http://magonline.com/how-to-become-a-christian/

Josh the Baptist says:

MLD – That’s a very simple version, but it will work.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

Josh – on the how to become a Christian – I thought it odd that there is no mention of the word, the holy spirit – nothing about Jesus converting people – just what I do.

But more strange was this disclaimer – “PARENTS: remember it is not your job to “save” your child – it is God’s!” – it makes it sound like it is my job to save me by following the ABCs yet for children it all rests with God – it’s God who saves.

I say baptize the little critters and get it over with. 😉

Babylon's Dread says:

I just think I raised a couple of issues that depressed people do not talk about. It is hard to admit that the thing which causes so much suffering has some ironic aspects. I think many depressed people do not express the full range of things they feel.

London says:

BD, I also think it was that you were posting those on FB where there is no chance to be replying anonymously. People might not be ready to post about depression in a place where their friends, family, co-workers etc are able to see what they have to say about it.

Personally, I got what you meant when you were saying that people who are depressed hyper aware etc, but I’m not quite sure that I agree that once that cycle is over, people are disappointed that it’s gone. I’m not sure how I would describe it, but that part didn’t “feel” quite described the way I’ve experienced it.

I think probably there’s different experiences for different people.

London says:

It wasn’t a criticism.

Josh the Baptist says:

Dread, the depression articles have been great. There is still too much stigma attached for a guy like me to go public on facebook, unfortunately.

You are correct, in my depressed years art would flow out of me nonstop. I was terrified that if I lost that inner darkness, I would lose the creativity. That is the main reason, that and shame, that I fought getting treatment for so many years.