Loose Ends

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41 Responses

  1. McGarrett says:


    Amen to the CC Pastors leaving their wives for a newer model. How is this justifiable? Oh yes, “they are a gifted teacher”. So what! What a deluded mind which can “move on” and act as if nothing has happened. I will never understand this. Yet it seems as if the “old tribe” endorses such behavior. I remember our Pastor years ago telling us, regardless of “he said, she said”; if a Pastor goes thru a Divorce, at a minimum, they should stay away from Ministry for a year. Of course, if they are a gifted teacher, this would surpass any moral standards!

  2. Paul says:

    “There will always be some healthy CC’s that continue to maintain or grow a presence in their communities,”

    If that’s all I accomplish I will grateful, making an impact for the kingdom in my community. Why do we feel the need to build a brand? Brands are for businesses.

  3. bob1 says:


    I guess “gifted preaching” covers a multitude of sins.

    Funny, I thought it was love…

  4. Michael says:

    “Brands are for businesses.”

    And too many pastors are entrepreneurs in the exciting world of free market religion…

  5. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    How about this for a loose end – today is Ascension Day – one of the 4 major observances in the church and no one mentions it, observes it or cares. I am going to church tonight – anyone else have plans? Surely it should be as big as Valentines Day or St Patrick’s Day

    Attached is a good discussion.


  6. Nathan Priddis says:

    Yes! I was blown away when I saw that!
    No freaking way!…..I thought to myself, literally. I thought if a guy couldn’t get laid, you sorta kept that to yourself. You dont start a social media group.
    Footfetish? Stealing women’s panties?? But now INCEL????

  7. John 20:29 says:

    Recently, on the other side of the hill, a fellow on his way to work had had it with his job of 5 years. His solution? He drove his car into several pedestrians, injuring them. His rationale? He’d decided that his solution to his problem was to spend some years in jail to straighten his life out. Must have been more to it than that, but…?

    Over my lifetime i have seen self discipline and self denial go from being seen as survival necessities and virtues to being considered by society at large as destructive to the every mans right to self fulfillment. It is interesting to hear my children, older and wiser now, speak of their public school days and the indoctrination. Clearly the Church at large lost its conviction and its moorings also. The mile wide inch deep understanding (and devotion) grasp of the Faith is bearing the expected fruit, no doubt. I guess we can thank God, that we were taught to kill the infidels….. dunno

    This is a great post today – full of truth and food for thought! Thaank you, Michael and God keep

  8. John 20:29 says:

    Tablet typing… Yikes!!!! We were NOT taught to kill…. sorry

  9. JM says:

    Hmmm…Angry Celibates…just selfish, perverted misfits who wouldn’t know self-control if it hit ’em up da side of da head. Sick, sick puppies.

    As to CC…there weren’t enough barf bags or manure shovels for me to make it to the end of the piece for which you gave the link. No wonder you had a reaction. I suspect that, if all the truths about the sick morals of the “originals” ever came out, this man would find it so hard to cope he would have to be hauled off to one of those places where you get to wear a white uniform that ties in the back.

    While I have been assumed to believe the opposite, I do think there are a handful of CC pastors out there who are trying to do right by their people. I simply think that under present circumstances, they would do themselves and the body of Christ a favor by taking the CC name off. It is becoming a source of confusion because of how factious it has become. I would also like to see pastors more active in decrying the Moses Model slobber and acknowledging the abuses that have occurred under it. But, I’ve given up unless, well.. pigs become airborne, the hot place freezes over, etc. etc. , Even new leadership at the “Mother Church” has made no attempt at foundational and institutional corrections. I recall there being no expectations on that score, though.

    Michael, have you ability to name the pastors who have traded in the “wife of their youth” for new models? If not, are you able to give an approximate number and where they are right now? (ex: are they still in their pastorates?) This has always been a huge issue for me. It was rekindled when I discovered some self-righteous people who continue to speak at Dwight Douville’s church.

    I thank you ahead for whatever you are able to share.

    I echo John 20:29’s very apt sentiments. God keep you, Michael.

  10. Michael says:


    I’ve called a number of them out by name before to massive yawns from anyone who should care.
    It just dawned on me that the “incels” and the “pastors” both share a sick belief that women are theirs to do with as they please…
    I’ll be blunt to admit that today I’m too weary to make good decisions about what to say and what not to say, but I’ll revisit the matter soon…

  11. JM says:

    Thanks for your timely response. I agree about the shared low view of women by the two parties you mention. I’ve seen enough to concur. I will “stay tuned” on the other matter. May God send you refreshment in the meantime. 🙂

  12. John 20:29 says:

    One thing that i must speak out on in the defense of the intelligence and character of the female of the species…. Do not give the trophy wives a pass. She couldn’t help herself?
    It takes a very self absorbed woman with a low IQ or, most likely, no respect for the cost of her redemption to decide that a married man would be better served to drop his wife in exchange for her…. Sure, there’s an excitement and pleasure in courtship, but would you rob a bank to go on a shopping spree? Some evil deeds can’t be undone. Thank God for grace and mercy, but don’t take them lightly.

  13. Michael says:


    Amen to # 12…

  14. Linda says:

    Why ever acknowledge the Moses model abuses? The way it works is that the white-uniform-that-ties-at-the-back conveniently prevents one from touching the “Lord’s anointed” Brilliant!

  15. John 20:29 says:

    Moses model etc…. Does it strike anyone else as absurd that any born again Believer today should elevate himself (generic) to equality with Moses or David? There are principles God expects us to learn from O.T. believers, but…..

  16. CM says:

    Ah yes, CC pastors trading in their existing wife to a newer model (no different that cars right?)….

    But hey, if the Grand Poobah Chuck Smith could almost do it, then why not everybody else?

  17. JoelG says:

    No comments on the Gregory of Nanziazus quote? Would love to hear more thoughts on this from someone more intelligent than myself.

  18. Outside T. Fold says:

    To understand more about Incels, I commend to you a website called We Hunted the Mammoth. It is devoted to analysis of (mostly online) groups that have embraced the hatred of women—misogyny—as a belief system. Here’s the site’s Incel category.

    The galling thing about incel-dom is that it’s a toxic combination of insecurity, abdication of personal responsibility, and entitlement, all existing in an insular online culture. A self-reinforcing culture.

    (And oh joy, that insular culture dwells inside a larger culture where there are still so many inequities for women. Cue the #metoo stories, and the realm of double standards that rewards men for certain traits and punishes women for the same. “Don’t get angry. But do take charge. Be nice. But not too nice. Speak up. But don’t seem like you talk too much.”)

    An Incel’s sense of entitlement to hot women’s bodies is not for the sake of the intimacy of relationship between two persons. Heavens, not that. Intimacy connotes that the woman is recognized as a full and complete human being. Incels do not recognize the full humanity of women. They want a hot female body they can penetrate and ejaculate into. Not for the sake of the relationship with her, but as a status prize they can display for their fellow incels.

    It’s galling, enraging, tragic, and scary all at once. Deep brokenness within, the inability or unwillingness to recognize women as fully human. Scary because the self-reinforcement glorifies violence (do a search for Saint Elliot, how incels refer to the Isla Vista mass murderer.) Like all the other mass-shootings, there’s a history of domestic violence is there.

    Men are afraid that women will laugh at them.
    Women are afraid men will kill them.

    I have no idea how to address the root causes. (there is one story of someone who claims to be a former incel who described how he got out of it. So there’s that.) I fear for the very real harm, destruction, violence and death that’s come out of this movement. In the current climate, I don’t see how the incel movement can be self-correcting. I’m interested in avoiding the harms more than finding out how they can be healed.

  19. Duane Arnold says:

    #17 Joel

    Michael and I discussed for hours over the last two weeks… stay tuned for conclusions!

  20. JoelG says:

    Sweet! Looking forward to it.

  21. JD says:

    As long as we will do this, He will do that. Cart pushing the horse, IMHO.

  22. Khendra M says:

    Came across your blog while looking up comparisons of denominations I’m familiar with.

    I stopped attending my local CC in September of 2017 when one of the elders publicly admitted to, and attempted to justify, his extramarital affair, and his then-wife added gas to the flames by spilling a bunch of personal details publicly on social media, trying to justify her apparent frigidity. I’d been considering leaving the church before that because of their lack of organization, lack of theological rigor, and frequent error of believing that a lot of outward enthusiam and emotional displays are the workings of the Holy Spirit (hence their love of proclaiming the false dichotomy of “it’s not a religion, it’s a relationship!) — but I wanted to make sure that was an inclination from God and not just my own idea. Well, then that mess occurred. Clearly that was God saying, yes, get out of there now.

    Attended an independent fundamental Baptist church for half a year after that. No public scandals among the leadership, thankfully (from what I’ve read, that’s not the case in many of the other local IFB churches), but they had an amazing propensity to take descriptive passages from Scripture and attempt to make them into prescriptive commands to “win souls.” Everything was about “winning souls,” “getting right with God,” and little to nothing was about the work of the Holy Spirit. For people who wanted so hard to be separate from the world, they had a strangely contradictory belief that they should be winning souls en masse and establishing massively large local churches populated by people from that same world they wanted to be so separate from! How could they be so naive to think their door-to-door knocking would draw in huge numbers of converts of cynical atheists, snarky liberal Millennials, or even other Christians, who aren’t exactly beating down the door to dress like they’re in the 19th century and attend their services? Never mind their deceptive claim that they are the ‘original preserved church’ from the New Testament era when their movement didn’t even start until the early 1900s.

    I’m now back with Confessional Lutheranism. I was happily raised in a WELS church before my parents got side-tracked by Pentecostal End Times eschatological and dispensational speculations. My mother passed earlier this year, never having seen the rapture and end of the world she and my father once thought would occur in 2008. Now I’m with the MO Synod. I know no denomination is perfect, but Confessional Lutherans seem the most stable, both doctrinally and in outward fruit, compared to the chaos and confusion of most other church branches these days (don’t even get me started on the arrogantly argumentative New Calvinism, patriarchy, Vision Forum, Mark Driscoll, Doug Wilson, Bill Gothard, and their numerous rationalizing of various sex sins and aberrations — that was another connection I once had that I’m glad no longer oppresses my spirit).

  23. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Hey, let’s hear it for Khendra M – welcome.
    Hang around, I need a new LCMS sidekick here. 🙂

  24. Link07 says:

    “We’ve seen this happen with other movements of God, unfortunately. May God protect Calvary Chapel from this sin.” Funny because the only reason to address this question is because there is an obvious split taking place. It isn’t “other movements” its cca that need to repent of their pride.

  25. JM says:

    Khendra M @ 22,

    As MLD @23 said, “Welcome!”

    Also, would you feel comfortable with identifying of which pastor you were speaking?
    (If, however, it would cause you any trouble, then do not worry about it. 🙂 )

  26. Khendra M says:

    Hi. It was one of the elders, not the head pastor. The head pastor had no issues. And the elder has since left the church.

  27. Xenia says:

    Hello Khendra, welcome to the fray!

  28. Jim Jacobson says:

    As to the State of CC article, I read it while at the Basics Conference (Alistair Begg) near Cleveland. There weren’t many CC pastors there, but those who were, were blessed. I was unaware of any scandals and there was no senseless rambling from the pulpit.

  29. Michael says:


    You went to a Reformed pastors conference?

  30. Jim Jacobson says:

    …and had a Baptist preacher fill in for me while I was out of town. I’m expecting a call soon, but it won’t come because no one really cares anyway.

  31. Michael says:

    That’s part of the reason they won’t call…the other reason is they know there’s nothing they can do about it.

    They have no authority except what is given them…

  32. Jim Jacobson says:

    Well… it’s my statement as to “the state of CC” -I’m looking elsewhere for leadership.

  33. Michael says:

    I think that’s a good call…but you knew that already… 🙂

  34. Jim Jacobson says:

    BTW, the reformed food was fantastic. For the same price as a typical CC conference, they fed us some great food. All meals were included and there was more than enough to eat. It made me wonder (again) where does all that conference money go…?

  35. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Evangelicals are all mixed up and confused. Alistair Begg joins the CC speaking group (he is on their radio airwaves and speaks at their conferences – Greg Laurie blends CC with SBC on a formal basis – Jim J goes to the reformed conference and pstrmike wants to be SBC.

    Gotta love the American Christian scene. 🙂

  36. Michael says:


    I know where some of it went…ask Don McClure…

  37. John 20:29 says:

    #35… MLD = sidewalk superintendent for the building of the Church or so it seems from here. LOL No matter as there are issues … ?

  38. Duane Arnold says:


    There are some of us, albeit just a few, who think the historic faith is enough…

  39. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    However, it was Michael who seemed to express surprise that a CC guy would cross lines and go to a “Reformed” conference. I was just adding to that.

  40. Steve says:

    Actually I think its pretty cool that CC, reformed and others can cross pollinate; however the reasons they do it I’m afraid may be a bit more sinister.

  41. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve, I think the cross pollination bothers me in this situation and also shows that folks don’t know what they believe well enough to hold a conviction.
    Lutherans take the rap for not compromising for the sake of unity. If the conference was on basics, nothing is more basic than your view of salvation. For a Calvinist (Begg) and an Arminian (CC people) to say let’s lay that all aside and discuss only matters that do not matter, so we can have a nice lunch – well, that may be going a bit far — and I like a good lunch as well as the next guy.

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