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193 Responses

  1. Tony says:

    So when you were at Cavalry Chapel did you participate in “Prophecy Conferences” Michael?

  2. Michael says:

    No, I was already well on my way to abandoning pretrib stuff then.
    I was kicked out before I could get kicked out for that, but it was inevitable…

  3. Michael says:

    I’ll be offline most of the day (again).
    Prayers appreciated as I try to help some folks get through some stuff, then try to to get through some stuff myself.

  4. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Is Tony our old Tony from years ago? From Pahrump Nevada?

  5. Michael says:

    Different Tony…

  6. em... again says:

    Pastor Tony?

    just heard on the news of the slaughter of Christians again in Egypt… it’s clear that these murderers neither know nor fear God…

    praying for Michael’s challenges this day

  7. The New Victor says:

    Yes, where are the “We Are Egypt” flags on Facebook? Or “We Are Copts.” That’s what bothers me about the social media stuff, that it’s so myopic and self-absorbed.

  8. The New Victor says:

    We were walking out of the 7-11 the other day and a homeless guy was sitting on his haunches near the door, his head down. The kids wanted to give him some money, I only had a $20, so I gave it to them to give to him and walked a little to the car. The guy pulled his head up, took the bill and looked at it, then gave it back. Then he took a $1 bill, probably that someone else had given him, and gave it to them, saying nothing, and putting his head back down. Not sure what to tell the kids, but I said that sometimes people needed more than money, though it certainly would have helped him.

    After I strapped in D5, I looked up and he was gone. An Angel? No. As we were driving out, I noticed that he had gone across the parking lot to the empty lot and was on his haunches again, near a retaining wall, away from prying eyes. Maybe we insulted him…

  9. Tony says:

    I don’t live in Nevada

  10. London says:

    Maybe he wasn’t homeless.

  11. Rob says:

    How many pastors are willing to speak out against violence this weekend? How many Trump-supporting pastors are willing to speak out against violence towards reporters? How many pastors are willing to speak out against the idea that it is OK to assault someone because they are liberal or gay or just because “they deserve it”?

  12. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I know my pastor will not be speaking out against any of that. My pastor is in the pulpit to forgive sin and preach the gospel.

  13. bob1 says:


    1– in conservative churches? Count ’em on 2 hands.
    2– Goose egg. Many (way too many, IMHO) are in bed with this regime.
    3 — Don’t even want to think about it.

  14. Jean says:


    What is more troubling is what that incident says about the candidate’s supporters, who in his victory address, seemed to be rather pleased with what he did, and these same people probably consider themselves Christians and conservative ones at that.

    Major streams of American Christianity have veered so far away from the apostolic faith that it may be hardly noticeable anymore.

  15. filbertz says:

    the leap from supporters at his press conference to conservative christians is too distant for my taste. The candidate did not go unpunished, both in being cited for assault and the black eye to his reputation moving forward. He did own his mistake and apologized for it. Perhaps that is not enough for some, but it is more than we get from many. Of course, the reporter was faultless and is now a ‘victim.’ Instead of speaking out against violence, how many pastors will herald the good news of peace between God and man? Precious few. We ‘deserve’ a thumping from God, but He chose to love us…perhaps we should go and do likewise.

  16. Rob says:

    Jean, I totally agree with you.

  17. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I don’t know how we can expect our church body to understand the apostolic faith while advocating that our pastors preach politics and or morality (as they see it.) sO want someone who will preach the word and properly administer the sacraments.
    I am not looking for my pastor to be a SJW.

  18. Duane Arnold says:

    I find the assault of Mr. Jacobs deeply disturbing, not only in terms of the act, but also in terms of the reaction.

    The people who applauded the action are some of the very same people who were decrying a “left wing hate crime” when the neo-Nazi Richard Spencer was assaulted. Neither incident was justified, but what has happened to us as a country when an assault on a neo-Nazi is decried and an assault on a working journalist is applauded? I begin to wonder if we have simply lost our minds.

    Oh, by the way, Greg Gianforte served with Pastor Douglas Wilson on the board of the Association of Classical and Christian Schools, which the pastor co-founded. The group has been shown to have “Christian” white nationalist ties…

  19. Rob says:

    MLD, I’m not sure how speaking out against violence, exercising self-restraint, treating others with kindness and dignity, it outside the calling of bible preaching pastor.

  20. Duane Arnold says:

    For a profile of Mr. Gianforte’s Christian faith, you can take a look at this:

  21. em... again says:

    haven’t read the thread’s comments to the question on condemning punching reporters, yet, so i don’t know where my thoughts fall in with the thinking here…

    i did see footage of the fella when he got ‘assaulted’ – it came after he repeatedly shoved his microphone directly (or so it looked) under the nose of the candidate, who at first told him to hold off, he’d address his question later as he’d come into the room to have a private word with the folks setting up to interview him…
    losing his temper with the reporter was wrong, but understandable IMHO… i’ve known many good and honest men – Christians – over my lifetime that would have reacted to such aggression in the same manner – when we women lose it we may cry, but men are more apt to do what the now congressman did…

    yes, i agree that going into politics/running for Congress means you have to be able to handle all of the press with style and grace… but it looks to me as if too many of those folks develop a devious, false and mean M.O. … IMHO – again

    pray that he can become stronger, but stay principled, now that he is a “lawmaker”

  22. em... again says:

    just had another thought (or i think that’s what it is)… seasoned congress people have people who finesse and intercept such aggressive reporters, do they not?

  23. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Rob, because it will turn political. Are you suggesting a pastor’s calling is to preach against individual sins? Is he also to rail against abortion sin on a regular basis?
    I guess he could preach that the guy is a punk without listing all his sins – just as we are all punks and then have a time of confession where he then can absolve all of us punks, feeding us the body and blood of Christ for the actual forgiveness of being a punk and leaving us with the gospel message that Jesus Christ died for punks.
    Or just rattle off the stop doing this and stop doing that.

  24. Xenia says:

    Thanks for the link, Duane.

    I wonder why the lady felt she had to wear a shirt decorated with Hindu Namaste symbols to this event.

    A lot of people are attracted to the other-worldliness of Icons but unless it leads the person to a genuine relationship with Christ, they are enjoying exotic artwork, nothing more.

  25. Jean says:


    Can you fact check your #22?

    My understanding is that there is no footage of the assault on the reporter. Can you post a link to what you saw?

  26. Xenia says:

    If a pastor spends more time teaching the Beatitudes, which tells us how we should interact with others, and less time plowing verse by verse through the bellicose chapters of the Old Testament, they wouldn’t have to talk about particular situations, the people would already know what God expects of His people.

  27. Xenia says:

    I heard a CC pastor tell us that “turning the other cheek” was ridiculous and that he was quite prepared to punch people out.

  28. Xenia says:

    Good preaching covers every situation, in other words. No real need to mention specific cases which can turn political.

  29. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia is on a roll 🙂

  30. em... again says:

    Jean, i think that they’ve pulled it… you’ll have to take my word for it that i did watch footage of it quite soon after it played out – he lost his temper after provocation, pure and simple…
    i was up late and checking news that night… i think i was on the Fox website soon after it happened and the woman reporting was the one that is on the air now on their news channel – at that time, she and her crew were condemning of Gianforte’s action, but it was clear that the man lost his temper – he apologized to the room afterwards, so he knew he’d done wrong…

    trying to drag a stubborn dog home from a neighbor’s garbage dump thru knee deep snow recently, i think that, if i’d had a gun i would have shot it and i “call myself a Christian”… perhaps, even Christians have their breaking point? i seldom lose my temper
    but hit people? i’d like to think my faith would stop me there… dunno tho, i’ve never had to deal with such obnoxious aggression (thank You, Lord for that)

  31. Josh the Baptist says:

    No place for that in the pulpit. Preach the Word. If God want you to preach about it, He put it in there.

  32. em... again says:

    #31 – should have said that the woman reporting on the incident is the one who is reporting on it now… not that she is on the air right now 🙂

  33. Xenia says:

    Fox news is a train wreck. You won’t find much truth there.

    Can’t really recommend a good news source, however.

    But not Fox.

  34. em... again says:

    i think that Xenia and i agree, if i’m not misreading her comments… if the whole counsel of God is faithfully and competently preached and taught, then there should be no need to make current events the sermon topic

  35. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    But truth be told, before this incident, did any of the offended people here ever hear of this dickweed? Was anyone offended by his attitude or his Christianity?

    But here isd the thing about preaching – if you are not preaching to everyone in your congregation you need to change topics. So how many people in your congregation are actively violent – or whatever was on the list?

    If the sermon is going to be about ‘them’ or ‘they’ then you need to change the topic. But preaching against the sin of not loving God entirely or not loving your neighbor — now that is something you can preach – because the people need to know that you are preaching to them… all of them. They need to know that you have absolved them. .. all of them and that the good news is to all of them — not they and them.

    Just a note from the unworthy peanut gallery.

  36. Xenia says:

    Em, yep, that’s what I think, too. We are in happy agreement. 🙂

  37. em... again says:

    well my #35 was not in response to Xenia’s #34… i knew the mention of Fox here would draw blood, but the video was right after the event and i don’t think that they could have faked a microphone repeatedly shoved under the man’s nose that quickly

  38. Josh the Baptist says:

    There are times to preach against violence and all sorts of sins: when they are mentioned in the scriptures. But you don’t have to be blown to a fro with every new headline. Preach the word which doesn’t change. Sooner or later, it will apply to all the other stuff.

  39. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Fox news is a train wreck. You won’t find much truth there.”

    No cable for the past 3 years. Do not miss any of the cable news channels. I watch the local morning news while I get ready in the morning. All I care about is weather, traffic and the entertainment report.

    Found out about the Montana guy here.

  40. Josh the Baptist says:

    I found out about it from MLD. No joke. I found out it was Montana in post #40.

  41. Duane Arnold says:

    Not sure if it is a topic for preaching… likely not. It is however a topic for reflection. If Mr. Gianforte is indeed the Christian he claims to be, he would not simply be apologizing, he would be asking forgiveness from Mr. Jacobs… At least, that’s what my Bible says.

  42. Josh the Baptist says:

    I found out that he claims to be a Christian in post #42.

    I don’t doubt that he is just because he hit somebody. I know Christians who have done a lot worse.

    Its more of a shock when Christians actually do the right thing. Reminds you that God’s power is for real.

  43. Jean says:

    There is no evidence that there is or ever was video of Gianforte’s assault. However, the eye witness testimony of the Fox reporter who was present contradicted the allegation of the perpetrator that the victim was aggressive.

    Let’s not make this blog part of the fake news universe.

  44. em... again says:

    Jean @44 – don’t call me a prevaricator ! ! !

    i watched the footage – eyewitness isn’t evidence in court perhaps, but the word of a fellow Believer should carry some weight here … i have no skin in the game, except to correct a false impression… it would do us all good to not be manipulated by manipulated news
    to repeat myself
    it was Fox news that was setting up to record an interview with Gianforte in a side room after some meeting there in Bozeman when the incident happened and it was Fox news that broadcast the footage that showed the British reporter repeatedly being really obnoxious – evidently they, for whatever reason, edited their report of the incident, removing both that portion of the video and the verbiage…
    i believe i did note that the Fox people were condemning of the attack in their original footage even as they’d showed the whole scenario … very interesting ponder for the few of us who did see the original that night…

  45. Jean says:


    If you watched something, then okay. But, what you saw would have been, according to the evidence in the public domain, a fictional vignette produced by someone praying on the public.

    Since some Americans (not speaking of anyone here) appear to support or understand this candidate’s response to be questioned by the media, perhaps reporters will need to begin wearing body cams.

    Trump’s buddies in Turkey and Russia know just how to handle the press. Is that what conservative Americans would like to see implemented here? Just asking, because the rhetoric and “body” language indicate a movement in that direction.

  46. em... again says:

    Jean, are we talking past each other here?

    “…what you saw would have been, according to the evidence in the public domain, a fictional vignette produced by someone praying on the public.” …legalese?

    i was on the Fox news website that night, the item was flagged as “breaking news.” my only interest in mentioning it here was due to what is now being reported (including on the Fox network)… the reports do not show what led up to the man – rightly or wrongly, take your pick – losing his temper with the reporter… it really gives the impression that the candidate simply took offense and meted out his idea of justice and that wasn’t exactly how it transpired… it was actually, when seeing the whole thing play out, kind of humorous
    perhaps, there is some litigation coming, don’t know… but it will be with us forever, i suppose

    now you can take my report for what it is worth – i’ve never seen a flying saucer, never hope to see one, but all in all i’d rather see than be one 🙂

    we can throw around all kinds of speculations as to who is buddies with whom, whether the guy, wanting a story, deserved to be knocked down and punched, whether the new congressman’s apology was sufficient, whether the congressman is really a Christian (careful with that one) and so forth forever…
    when it comes to real power out there, we, John Q. Public, do not really know what we’re talking about… we can only watch and pray for discernment and forbearance

  47. dusty says:

    Hi PP family! Hope you all have a wonderful weekend. Much love to you.

  48. Dan from Georgia says:

    Since this is open mic…

    The Christian Posthas once again jumped the shark in regards to serious journalism:

  49. More fodder:

    Went to see Guardias of the Galaxy 2 yesterday. Mainly for the son. I’m nota big sci fi person. So far my favorite movies of 2017 have been Silence, Lion and The Founder.

  50. I believe most Christians would find Silence to be frustrating or even agitating. But I found it fascinating and thought provoking.

  51. The New Victor says:

    At least the pastor did the right thing and called the sheriff. If he hadn’t, major fail by the parents.

  52. Jean says:

    I know it’s real, but I do not comprehend the depths of human depravity.

    I do not understand how the same minds which can harness the technology in an iPhone can harness suicide and mass terror in bombs.

    I do not understand time very well; time rarely seems friendly. We look back in time at what “was”, wishing we had that time back; or what our lives would be like now if back then we would have made a different choice here or there.

    Or we look to the future, in hope for our life if we can just get through the present time; or we look to the future in pessimism, believing that the present time offers no hope for the future.

    But what about the present time? It seems that the present time is the only time in this life in which we have choices to make, things to do, people to love, and love to receive. How can we be present in the present time?

  53. John 20:29 says:

    it is good that you posted the link at 53, Jean… that poor mother, every fibre of her being as a mommy said “protect the child”… much to think on in your question …

    i prefer to see this world as permeated with evil that only God’s hand restrains… the question of how God could allow such a thing only shows how limited our understanding of Him is …
    and how limited our understanding of the significance of what is playing out on this planet that Shakespeare noted is a stage… let alone, how important each of us is in the drama… do we blame that bomber or the evil puppeteers that created him or do we blame the devil that inspires them with his lies?

  54. Duane Arnold says:

    #53 Jean

    I know, it all seems unbelievable at times. I had two friends in the concert in Paris that was attacked last year. Thankfully they survived… but they are not the same.

    When I see the pictures from Manchester, it seems even worse. These are children, who just went to a pop concert and, now, they are dead or maimed.

    Then my mind turns to “collateral damage” in our bombings in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria… Children die there as well, but we don’t see their pictures on our social media. Meanwhile, a part of our country applauds when they hear a bomb is dropped. Refugees continue to drown in the Mediterranean, but it’s only when we see the photo of a dead child washed up on the beach that we care… and then we forget…

    Something has happened to compassion in our country. I wonder if we’ll ever see it come back. I pray so…

  55. Jean says:


    I’m going to go out on a limb, but the lack of compassion is a telltale sign of unbelief in the Gospel, either its rejection or the failure to have heard it. If compassion is lacking in our country, then we are turning in mass to paganism as a nation.

  56. Duane Arnold says:

    #56 Jean

    I think you are right…

  57. pstrmike says:

    Gregg Allman, RIP

  58. Michael says:

    Last night in Portland two men were murdered trying to defend two Muslim girls on a transit bus.
    A third person was injured.

    On this Memorial Day we will remember a man who fought for his country abroad and died for his countries values here.
    I mourn the fact that many will die here for those values before we repent…

    “Rick Best, one of two men killed in a brutal attack Friday aboard a MAX train, was a city of Portland employee, Army veteran and onetime candidate for Clackamas County commissioner.

    Best, 53, worked as a technician for the city Bureau of Development Services, said David Austin, a spokesman for Portland Commissioner Chloe Eudaly.

    He was headed to his home in Happy Valley when he and two others intervened as a man began hurling epithets at two teenagers aboard a MAX Green Line train, witnesses said. The man then pulled a knife and stabbed the three men, killing two and injuring one.

    Best had three teenage sons and a 12-year-old daughter, Austin said.

    Best grew up in Oregon, mostly in Salem, and attended Vocational Village High School in Portland.

    He met his wife at Portland Community College, and then joined the Army. He said in a voter pamphlet statement that he served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Best retired from the Army as a platoon sergeant for Corps maintenance in 2012 after 23 years in the military. He joined his family in Happy Valley and quickly became frustrated with the county board, in 2014 launching an unsuccessful campaign in which he said he would not accept donations.

    In January 2015, he began working for the city as a technician.

    His supervisor at the Bureau of Development Services, Kareen Perkins, said Best was a dedicated employee who was well-liked by his tight-knit team.

    “He was always the first person you would go to for help,” she said. “I’ve talked to most of his coworkers today, and several of them said it’s just like Rick to step in and help somebody out.”

    He worked hard to find his way in civilian life, Perkins said. In his job, he worked with about 30 coworkers and hundreds of customers seeking permits from the city.

    “He was just really good at his job, and just great to work with,” she said.

    He also spoke frequently and fondly of his wife and four children, Perkins said.

    City commissioner Chloe Eudaly, who until recently oversaw the bureau, released a statement memorializing Best:

    “My heart goes out to the family of Rick Best. They have lost a husband and a father, and we have lost a treasured employee.

    “Rick worked for the city for a little more than two years and was a valued member of our Bureau of Development Services team. And as a veteran, he served our country with honor and distinction. He stood up for two young women and others he didn’t even know — all because he wanted to help.

    “Losing a colleague is hard. Losing someone under these circumstances makes it even worse. We are very saddened at the loss of Rick and we will remember him fondly as we move forward.”

    Eudaly has asked city human resources to make sure there are counselors available to bureau staff when staff return to work on Tuesday.”

    — Elliot Njus

  59. Col46 says:

    I think lack of compassion is due to censorey overload, there is so much evil that it becomes overwhelming. Like Duane said, we care…and then we forget.

  60. dusty says:

    :, (

  61. dusty says:

    What a sad day. 🙁

  62. The New Victor says:

    Not only was that guy ranting about Muslims, his target, he was ranting about other ethnicities. Oregon is a beautiful state, but it’s people reflect extremes. Go off I-5 a ways, especially to the East, and it’s something out of Deliverance in some areas. In general, it’s ok, but there are pockets of weirdness.There are also cults, covens, and militias, along with the white supremacy types like this perp is. Down around “Sweet Home” is exactly that.

  63. Michael says:

    The New Victor,

    You may not be aware but I am a native Oregonian.
    I was born here, live here, and will die here.
    I feel about my state like most people feel about the nation.

  64. Scooter Jones says:

    “Oregon is a beautiful state, but it’s people reflect extremes. Go off I-5 a ways, especially to the East, and it’s something out of Deliverance in some areas. In general, it’s ok, but there are pockets of weirdness.”

    Wow! Are you serious, man? It’s people reflect extremes? As an Oregonian myself, I don’t whether to cuss or laugh at your assessment.

    So, I guess I’ll just laugh…

  65. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I think we have faulty memories or read from poor histories if we think we or anyone in the world had more or showed more compassion than we do today. WW2 had autrocities everywhere on all sides. Call it collateral damage if you wish but Americans cheered no matter which enemy and their children were slaughtered.
    And we called them Japs and Krauts, and everyone called the Jews Kikes. We are no worse today.

  66. Duane Arnold says:

    I have a slight accent when I speak from clipping my words. Most of it derives from oral surgery and speech therapy when I was a child, then there were several years spent in Europe. Late this afternoon, speaking to a person who had dented someone else’s car, I was told to “go back where you come from”.

    I was born in Indiana. What is happening to this country?

  67. The New Victor says:

    Why would anyone pick up on that as being insulting? I lived in Gresham in the late 90s and i hated to leave. Though people made fun of me because i lived I Gresham rather than Portland proper. I saw some things and heard other things from native Oregonians I could tell questionable things from the backwoods of California where I’m from. Doesn’t reflect upon me as a person, nor does it you guys.

  68. Duane Arnold says:

    #66 MLD

    The public did not see the films of the fire bombing of Dresden. Churchill did, and was outraged. The public did not see the films of the fire bombings of Tokyo. Gen. Marshall did, and and dialed it back. It was a different time and a different conflict with conscripted armies. Even now, scholars debate actions taken. Not to get into a back and forth argument, just to say, a different time, a different conflict. And, of course, through the Marshall plan, we largely rebuilt must of what had been destroyed…

  69. John 20:29 says:

    the nastiest group of people that i ever lived among were in an upscale neighborhood north of Seattle – it wasn’t that way when we moved out there, but then the sewers came and with it development – nothing is worse than a group of people who judge their worth and yours by the pocketbook
    for the record, i love eastern Oregon… down in the southern corner there’s a cute little down with a hot water geyser right in the middle of town… my late husband had a minor medical emergency and the local hospital was first rate….. for the record 🙂

  70. John 20:29 says:

    “… we called them Japs and Krauts, and everyone called the Jews Kikes. We are no worse today.” taking exception to the collective “we” in that declaration

    i was there and, yes, some did, but not all … and i think that that is true today, also

    some people just have to hate to have a reason to live… it makes them feel righteous, i guess

  71. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    One major difference between us and any of our enemies over the years, women, children, and civilians in general to us are collateral damage —– to our enemies they are the targets. The ‘moral equivilence’ refuses to see that.
    Personally, I don’t know a single person who cheers the dropping of bombs – but I am anti war so perhaps I hang with a different crowd.

  72. John 20:29 says:

    let me presume on Michael here with a little history, if i may…
    i was in grammar school during the above mentioned war…
    i had an eight block walk thru a residential area to get to school – every few houses there’d be a little banner in a front window with the number of stars designating the number of family members in service… it was quite sobering to see a banner added with a silver (wounded) or a gold (killed) star…
    no matter how you want to go looking for first cause, we didn’t start that war and it’s pretty hard not to hate people who are killing your family
    our green grocer was Japanese and my grandmother was outraged when she heard they were being interned and tried to help them, but they were already gone…
    however, her daughter who lived in an agricultural area said that they watched the Japanese farmers going out into their fields at night with flashlights, lying down in the crop rows in a pattern that formed an arrow pointing to the defense plants nearby – they’d turn their lights on periodically… we didn’t know who to trust and we’d been caught with our pants down and now were fighting for our lives
    FWIW – incendiary devices and flame throwers are about the worst weaponry i can think of, i couldn’t use them, i don’t believe

  73. The New Victor says:

    Rudy Rummel rightly points out those actions as war crimes. I think he was the one who coined the term “Democide” (death by government).

    As to what happened to you, Duane, that’s both sad and concerning. Is it the pendulum swinging back? Is the Brown Paper Bag Test, which I’d fail, going to return? Pollack jokes?

    This past fall, I was visiting the rural foothill community where I grew up. The kids were playing at the park. At my small high school (700 students at the time in the mid to late 80s) we had the “token” black kid, and less than 5 kids of Asian descent. The county has gentrified since then. My kids are something like 3/8 white. They are 1/8 Filipino on their mother’s side. My son has the epicanthial folds, and there is no mistaking it. I overheard a local kid commenting to him, “why do you have slanted eyes? That’s weird.” By the time I made my way over, almost not believing what I was hearing in 2016, the teaching moment had passed.

    Where we live, his school is over 90% Mexican, so the same thing here is in reverse. Going back to that small rural county, I better understand how my ex used to comment, “where are all of the Mexicans? There sure are a lot of white people.” I now feel that way when visiting.

    I hate feeling like this. Aren’t we all one blood? Looking half Filipina, my ex also got a lot of nastiness from her own people. I remember going to a baptism party with her. We were walking out, and some kids were playing futbol in the parking lot. A ball got away and she kicked out back. One of the kids made a comment to her. I almost missed it. I asked, “did that kid say what I thought he did?” I wanted to go back and… have a conversation. She said, “it’s ok, just let it go. ” He called her a “Chinita” Like white people used to call anyone who looked Asian “Chinamen” or “Chinawoman” in this case. I felt like going back and telling that kid that she was a REAL Mexican, unlike he who was born here.

    My kids don’t get race or culture yet. This stuff is taught, good or bad. It’s it just natural that people retreat into where they feel safe? Safety is ok. Hurting others is not.

  74. Anne says:

    66- I grew up in a military home with a very racist father on many bases in the south during the 50s & 60s. In the last year I have seen and heard more racism on the streets of Portland, and on mass transit than I have in the a long time. Forgot it existed anywhere to this degree when I lived behind the Orange curtain. Last summer when I shared some of my experiences with my kids they were astonished too being insulated in the OC bubble. Some of my minority neighbors whose families have lived here for decades tell me horror stories from the days OR was founded as a white state, sundowners laws etc. Those who long for the good old days and believe that’s what would make Amerca great again have been feeling greatly emboldened. And minorities are not going to go gently back to the good ole days. Much has changed MLD. I share Michael’s and other concerns of the dangers facing us.

  75. John 20:29 says:

    i had a white great grandmother who was involved in education for the blacks at the end of the Civil War (and before), my great grandfather got up and walked out of a restaurant when a black couple were seated – a husband and wife with very different approaches to race… my great grandmother saw more clearly than did her husband; the black folk weren’t slow and inferior – they just needed education to show what they were really capable of… sometimes women have more insight than the men do … some women, anyway 🙂

    however, today, there is no excuse for racism – if we could just separate behavior from skin color and religion

  76. The New Victor says:

    My Portland buddies pointed out an area near The Hollywood District, bordered by stone gates, where only whites could live. I forgot what year they told me it opened up. One of my more conservative friends married a 1st generation Mexican. He’s had some anti Mexican rants. Until 1942, IIRC, his marriage would have been illegal in California.

  77. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The new racism is the card being played by the Left. The reason I am leaving CA (besides they raised the cigarette tax $2 a pack, make you pay for a bag at the grocery and just raised the gasoline tax 12 cents / gallon) is their growing racism. There is not a single Democrat who thinks that ‘minorities’ are capable of taking care of themselves and must be watched after and cared for by the state,
    So when you talk about modern day racists, look no further than Democrat politicians.

  78. Michael says:

    Sadly, Oregon has a very racist history.
    The current environment encourages that which had been hidden to be revealed…and we must understand that it was there all along.

  79. The New Victor says:

    The plastic bag law is curious… because more robust plastic bags are legal. Though they charge us here. I’m set to pay off the mortgage when the kids graduate high school. Given market conditions, I’m moving. I’ve already lived in Oregon. That’s on the list. Maybe Washington, I have a buddy in Port Townsend, and I love that area. Or Idaho, where my people are from, my birth mother born on The Rez. All I know is not California. We are talking single payor healthcare here. Non partisan analysis says it would cost 200% over the current states budget. Good luck with that.

  80. Anne says:

    As Michael mentioned, ain’t nothing new about the type of racism rebounding up here. Same ole garden variety of hate and ignorance as ever unfortunately.

  81. Anne says:

    Kinda sums it up at here in the Rose City tonight

  82. Potatoehead says:

    A really good article on the Pope and his growing world power and control:

  83. Duane Arnold says:

    #83 Potatoehead

    Sorry, this is the same old anti-Roman Catholic stuff that has been around for years. Any competent historian or theologian could tear it apart point by point…

  84. Jean says:

    Racism is another rejection of the Gospel.

    The Good Samaritan (who became the half-breed, unclean and other) gave himself for His enemies. His people rejected a Man such as Him.

    If we don’t see other human beings as our neighbors with dignity, then we don’t know Christ. If we do see other human beings as our neighbors with dignity, then we may bear the cross, as the three Oregonians did on the train a couple days ago.

    It would be perfectly appropriate for every church to pray for the victims of racism and bigotry and to confess the sin of racism and bigotry, which to some extent or another we probably all share. You cannot really heal what is not diagnosed.

  85. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am really sorry that some here are shattered to find that modern 21st century man is just as sinful and brutish as previous generations.

    Many here sound like the old post millennialists who thought the Church was the instrument God would use to perfect the world and usher in God’s kingdom. WWI dashed those hopes and WW2 rendered post millenialism to nothing more than a footnote in a Christian history book.

  86. Jean says:

    “I am really sorry that some here are shattered to find that modern 21st century man is just as sinful and brutish as previous generations.”

    Who is shattered? Which comment?

    “Many here sound like the old post millennialists who thought the Church was the instrument God would use to perfect the world and usher in God’s kingdom.”

    Who are the many? Which comments?

  87. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Those who can’t believe old sins pop back up.

    Perhaps even those who think bad acts are a rejection of the gospel. Someone must be pretty shattered to be willing to cast a fellow Christian out of the kingdom.

  88. Jean says:

    “Those who can’t believe old sins pop back up.”

    Who said that? What comment?

    “Perhaps even those who think bad acts are a rejection of the gospel.” – “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

    “Someone must be pretty shattered to be willing to cast a fellow Christian out of the kingdom.”

    Straw man, unless you can point to a comment where someone expressed such willingness.

  89. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am working on my phone as I am on a walk. Early on the lament was the reoccurance of sins we thought had been overcome and are now back.

    On the kicking out of the kingdom, perhaps someone is just not precise in their use of rejecting the gospel – Which is Christ dying for the sins of the world, being buried, raised on the third day and having ascended to the right hand of the father.
    Excuse any spelling or funny words – I am using the voice command.

  90. Jean says:

    “On the kicking out of the kingdom, perhaps someone is just not precise in their use of rejecting the gospel – Which is Christ dying for the sins of the world, being buried, raised on the third day and having ascended to the right hand of the father.”

    No, I was being precise. Unrepentant racists, are rejecting the gospel, and thereby remove themselves from “the communion of saints” (Apostles Creed).

    “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

    Racists don’t view the kingdom of God as “one” in Christ. They worship a false gospel and false notion of the kingdom. If you are unwilling to condemn racism, then your beef is with God, not me.

  91. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean your comments are nothing more than the old, I can’t believe how a Christian can do such a thing. Perhaps someone needs a more clear understanding of the simul.
    So, sin is sin and needs repentance but racism is the one that crosses the line?

    People used to tell me the same thing about smoking, that I was rejecting Christ because I was not caring for God’s temple. Don’t be like them.

  92. Jean says:

    “Perhaps someone needs a more clear understanding of the simul.” – Yes, that person is you.

    “So, sin is sin and needs repentance but racism is the one that crosses the line?” Straw man.

    “People used to tell me the same thing about smoking, that I was rejecting Christ because I was not caring for God’s temple. Don’t be like them.” – Straw man.

    This is my last comment to you on the topic, as we are not making progress. I have made myself clear using Scripture. The readers can decide for themselves or raise additional points.

  93. Jean says:


    Have you noticed that the philosophy of conservatism used to be known by its appeal to principles, where as today in many cases it appears to be known more by its appeal to pragmatism. What a reversal.

  94. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    When first century Israel rejected the gospel they were left on the outside looking in. This is what is meant by rejecting the gospel. I looked back, you said in particular to racism that it was unbelief and you implied it put a person back into paganism.

    But we can be done.

  95. Duane Arnold says:

    #94 Jean

    It has become “the ends justifies the means…” which now says “anything goes” – lying, bigotry, deception, etc.

    I was interested in the remarks in an op-ed by Michael Gerson, (Bush’s speechwriter):

    “The conservative mind, in some very visible cases, has become diseased, the movement has been seized by a kind of discrediting madness, in which conspiracy delusions figure prominently. Institutions and individuals that once served an important ideological role, providing a balance to media bias, are discrediting themselves in crucial ways. With the blessings of a president, they have abandoned the normal constraints of reason and compassion.”

  96. Jean says:

    The LCMS has a very good bible based policy on racism and the church.

    “2. The Scriptures require that the church confront moral evil in its midst, including the sin of racism.

    Reminding the Ephesian Christians to ‘take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them,’ St. Paul continues by exhorting them to ‘look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of the time, because the days are evil. Therefore, do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is’ [cit. omit.]. Racism must be regarded among the ‘works of darkness’ that produce nothing of any value to anyone. The church, aware of its history in the United States, must continually employ methods—grounded in the Word and sacraments and in the proper distinction between Law and Gospel—to expose, condemn, and remove it. Not to do so is to participate in perpetuating institutional and cultural racism and to hinder effective and God-pleasing outreach with the Gospel.”


  97. Jean says:

    Here is the proper link address to the article referenced in comment #97:

  98. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I do not support racism, in fact if a law were proposed to throw racists in jail even for their thoughts,, perhaps I would vote for that.
    What I argue against is folks here expressing that racism is back because Trump is president. (Duane’s quote above by the Bush guy and a couple of comments way up about ‘today’s climate’. In other words as if racism was at an acceptable level under Obama but now with the new administration it is roaring out of control like a wildfire. No, it’s always been there – perhaps more undercover.

    How many times was I accused of racism during the Obama time just for disagreeing with a policy? Or the claim the people wouldn’t vote for Obama because we were racists? It was every time you disagreed with the man.

    But hey, if you go to a church that has no black families and one walks in and you notice – you too are a racist.

  99. Michael says:

    I was very clear in my comment that these racist attitudes have lain dormant for a long time.

    We lived in a society where it was considered unacceptable to voice and act on racist thought.

    The current climate is changing that and we now have children threatening Hispanics with deportation in school and old, white, people screaming racial epithets at skateboarders.

    Trump didn’t create racists, he just tacitly (along with the right wing media) gave them permission to speak.

  100. Jean says:


    I would be interested in the Anglican understanding, but in the Lutheran Church, we have always distinguished between 3 functions of the Law: (1) curb; (2) mirror; and (3) guide.

    In it’s first function, the Law is used to curb and restrain evil with threats and punishments. The idea is not that evil can be extinguished by the Law, but that to a certain extent, for the good of society, evil can be curbed and restrained to an relatively acceptable level.

    What I took out of the quote in your #96 is that the very branch of government given responsibility for enforcing the Law in its 1st function for the benefit of society, instead seems to be attempting to harness evil for its own ends. The very real danger is in trying to domesticate or harness evil. Can you do it without unintended consequences?

    Equally troubling is the antinomianism expressed by some Christians who are happy or at least tolerant of evil coming out into the open.

  101. Jean says:


    I understood what you meant and agree with you. Trickle down is definitely working in that realm.

  102. Xenia says:

    Michael’s #100 expresses it perfectly.

    If the president can make hateful remarks in public, why can’t I?

    If so many people voted for a man who makes hateful remarks, people calling themselves Christians, it must not be so bad after all. I reckon I’ll join in.

    The attitude seems to be “At last I can say what I’ve been thinking all along.”

    This is viewed as a virtue, not a vice.

  103. John 20:29 says:

    hmmm… Trump has given us permission to show our dark side in public? well, maybe…
    many folk saw him as blunt and taking the politically correct speak out of the game…
    i’m trying to remember who was President when a black friend of the family was invited to sing at a Northern Idaho church and her family was not sure she’d be safe doing so, but it wasn’t Trump

    Today – one thing i’m certain of, at least, is that the whole word is erupting – the darkness is surfacing all around the planet… did Trump do that? maybe – dunno

    i think it is a good thing to be familiar with what the Bible prophesies for the centuries that have followed the crucifixion and resurrection of God’s son… it is amazing to watch how the commerce and welfare of the planet consistently line up with prophesy …
    then turn a deaf ear to those who’d try to make hay on having special insight on same

  104. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Someone is going to need to show me any comments Trump has made against any blacks or Jews that are racist. Show me any racist comment about American Hispanics. You can’t even show any racist comments that he has made about Muslims.
    Any comments have been political in nature – those in the country undocumented or those of a criminal nature. As to Muslims, he has only commented or acted against 6 of the 57 Muslim controlled nations. And those only because they refuse to help us get their travelers.

    Since it seems OK to cast people out of the kingdom for their thoughts or actions, perhaps some of you are in such danger.

  105. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    And I didn’t vote for Trump and I think him a fool much of the time. But I thought the same of Obama also.

  106. Michael says:

    I’m not casting anyone out of the kingdom.
    I will suggest that when some find out that the kingdom is broader than they hoped, they’ll leave of their own accord…

  107. Duane Arnold says:

    #101 Jean

    It is much the same in Anglicanism – curb, mirror, guide. There has, however, always been allowance made (on both sides of a question) for people who “color outside the lines”. This has been great in some instances, and terrible in others… but that’s the risk you take.

    Yes, I very much agree with Michael, Mr. Trump has given permission to the haters. Mock a disabled journalist, say demeaning things about women, call Hispanic immigrants rapists and murderers… the list can go on and on. The incident that happened to me yesterday which I referenced, would have been hard for me to imagine a couple years ago. I’ve watched the proliferation of Confederate flags in “small town” Indiana. Things have changed, and not for the better.

    Unfortunately, many evangelical leaders have sold their inheritance for a “pot of lentils” and, in the meanwhile, painted all “Christians” with the same brush. I’ve come to the conclusion that the Falwells and Franklin Grahams of this world while not heretics at least should be seen as schismatics as they have separated themselves from the values of the Gospel. The RCs have a good term for it… “separated brethren”. I do not deny their Christian faith, but I do find their conduct and actions to be outside the norms of the Faith.

  108. Jean says:

    “Someone is going to need to show me any comments Trump has made against any blacks or Jews that are racist. Show me any racist comment about American Hispanics. You can’t even show any racist comments that he has made about Muslims.”

    Someone else may choose to, but I certainly am not going to waste my time cataloging for you Trump’s racist past. Unlike you, who claims to not watch the news, I have seen enough of Trump’s racism to satisfy myself that he not only utters racist thoughts, but encourages his followers to express theirs as well. You can educate yourself, if you’re interested.; or you can remain ignorant.

    I do recall House Speaker Paul Ryan disavowing one particular statement by Trump, which Ryan defined as the “textbook definition of a racist comment.” And there is so much more.

  109. bob1 says:

    If you really want to be wise about our current political situation, I recommend this short book. The author is a Yale history professor and the expert on 20th Century totalitarian/authoritarian regimes.

  110. Jean says:


    Let me ask you a question as a pastor. From the LCMS policy I referred to earlier:

    Referring to racism: “The church, aware of its history in the United States, must continually employ methods—grounded in the Word and sacraments and in the proper distinction between Law and Gospel—to expose, condemn, and remove it.”

    In a Lutheran context, those methods would include for the unrepentant barring from Holy Communion and ultimately excommunication from the congregation.

    Would you commune an unrepentant racist? Say for example, if you found out that a member of your congregation was in the KKK or a neo-nazi organization?

  111. Duane Arnold says:

    #111 Bob1

    Got it, read it, almost have memorized it!

    #112 Jean

    If I had certain knowledge, I would find it difficult. In terms of pastoral care, those who partake unworthily “eat and drink damnation to themselves” not discerning the Body. That being said, if they have prayed the prayer of contrition and received absolution in the context of the service, I would then have to set myself up as a judge as to whether they are unrepentant or not… that would make me uncomfortable as we do not have a window into people’s souls.

  112. bob1 says:


    Not always a pleasant read, for sure. But necessary.

  113. Duane Arnold says:

    #114 bob1


  114. Anne says:

    MLD – Though my children are shocked, I haven’t been. My upbringing , were I’ve lived and my work alway kept me in touch with those who retained certain views but were mostly hesitant to speak out or act on them until more recently. Congratulations & blessings on your venture to be able to move somewhere more to your liking. I know your prayer book on Sundays and trust your heart will continue to remember all those less fortunate. Peace.

  115. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Anne, as one who was born into a post WW2 Jewish family I can tell you that a week does not go by that I have not heard anti Semitic slurs and comments. 68 yrs of it. I don’t buy that racism was ever frowned on where it made a difference.

  116. em... again says:

    pondering the thread here… i have to disagree that Trump’s presence and personality has caused the blatantly biased speak that is erupting all over the place now…
    everyone is trying to blame the other side – Christians blame Muslims, Conservatives blame Liberals, Orthodox blames Evangelical, Jean blames MLD ( 🙂 ) and Michael blames me (not)

    my point is? i think it is a much more dangerous world than any of our conclusions are acknowledging – that fact and the fact that we, the Church, need to focus on the Kingdom…
    it is silly to apply Christian standards to the unredeemed world… Muslims kill children and our nation has collateral damage that kills children, so we’re just as bad… say what? one might ask those who plan our wars to come up with another way to get rid of those extremists, the terrorists who hide among families. One might do that, but i’d be embarrassed to…
    Christ has already been crucified, resurrect in victory, ascended and will return for the final mop up – one that only God can pull off, eh?
    it is time to reset our reality buttons, i think (did i just quote Hillary? gasp!) … we’re in a war now, two actually, one as a Church and the other as a nation and we cannot, as Christians take on the task of setting the whole world in order… we can pray and we can make sure the gospel gets heard, at whatever risk to ourselves and that’s it …
    dunno, tho – do i?

    God keep

  117. dusty says:

    MLD, I’m sorry you have to go through that bs so much…..we love you!

  118. dusty says:

    Everyone runs away when i come out to play 🙁

  119. Anne says:

    117 I know, MLD, and grieve for the pain it has caused you and your loved ones. That’s another hatefulness becoming bolder in these parts too. Our local white nationalists are equally vitriolic against both the Blacks and Jews. It makes me even more grateful for those of all faiths and ethnicities who are standing up together here in Portland and across the nation against hate.

  120. bob1 says:



    Absolutely not! You’re one of the kindest individuals on this blog.

    I’ve been outside all day — just came in. We’ve had rain here 5 out of the last 6 days and today it was sunny.

  121. John 20:29 says:

    dusty, i’ve noticed that everyone goes away here after about 4:30pm and then turn up again about 10:30pm or later… no one would leave because dusty is here – yes, what bob1 said ! ! 🙂

  122. The New Victor says:

    My ex once told me that her grandmother like and treated our babies better because they were lighter skinned than other great grandchildren from cousins. Since very old people tend to look similar, I was shocked when my ex told me that her grandma was Filipina. She fell in love with a Mexican field worker. Her Filipino family disowned her, so she went to live in Mexico as a Mexican. It isn’t exactly scandalous, but it’s not talked about. My ex did research on the sly and found this out. I once commented to my brother-in-law, “well, your grandma is Filipina.” He responded, “no she’s not!” My ex was in the car and said, “yes she is.” BIL was silent. He’s only 25 now. My ex and one of her 4 brothers look obviously Asian. My ex said that her father used to make cruel jokes and hint that she had a different father… even though he’s half Filipino!

    When we first started dating, we were swimming in her apartment complex. She whispered conspiratorially to me, “I don’t think those people over there are Mexicans.” I must have looked confused. “I can tell they’re Chicanos.” I had to ask a first generation Mexican guy at work about a lot of this. Seems to me a lot of subtle and hidden bigotry.

    My BIL, when he was a teenager, once asked me, “so what are you going to tell [my son] about racism?” Where do I start???

    I start, I think, by stressing the second greatest commandment.

  123. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The point is that people hate today just like Cain hated Abel. It is absolutely no different. It is the nature of man.
    What I find odd about how Christians view this – like we could do better if we only tried – many with the attitude “Jesus already saved you, so you no longer need Savior Jesus – now you need to leave that behind and now you need to sit at the feet of Life Coach Jesus. If only you would do this, you would give up your racism.

    It is for this very reason that we cannot help noticing and dividing because of race, religion, color or whatever (as shown in New Victor’s comment) that man is still back at the Savior Jesus — in fact that is the only Jesus.

  124. Descended says:

    em, The New Victor, MLD

    The bigotry and hatred within and without the Church is so thick and so hypocritical … I think Jesus was speaking of more than just ethnic and racial tensions in Mt. 24, but the general anti-Christ spirit that is creating this kind of unworkable, perplexing Tribalism that pervades societies globally. It just keeps tearing itself into smaller, hyper-categorized sects. It’s as if what is happening in society at large now has already been happening in Christendom for the last couple centuries.

  125. Descended says:


    Why were you booted from CC?

    (Sorry everyone, don’t know the story).

  126. Michael says:

    I was booted for confronting adultery and alcoholism in the pastoral staff.

    My guess is that the rest of CC regrets what one church in the boondocks created…

  127. Michael says:

    Dusty, I try to take the weekends off….sorry I missed you, sis.

  128. Descended says:

    #’s 87, 88

    I always used to beat myself up for my reoccurring sins. It was like penance or something. Then it was opened up for me what God meant by “I will remember your sins no more”, “I will remove your sins as far as the east is from the west”. God is so magnificent he can FORGET our sins because of the righteous blood of Christ. Why then should I KEEP them in remembrance?

  129. Descended says:

    Happy Memorial Weekend, Michael. Hope all is well now.

  130. Michael says:

    To you as well, Descended…

  131. Descended says:

    #130 has actually zero to do with #’s 87 & 88 :-[ That’s what I get for blogging from the toilet…

  132. Jean says:

    An illustration With a Few Questions:

    There are two companies:

    Company A has an harassment policy. The summary says: Harassment on account of sex, race, religion, etc. is not tolerated, and anyone who engages in such harassment is subject to discipline, including dismissal.

    Company B has no harassment policy.

    All other things being equal:

    Question #1: Which company will have more incidents of harassment, Company A or B?

    Question #2: Which company would you rather work for, Company A or B?

    Question #3: If you have a daughter, granddaughter, or are or have relatives who are young single women or racial or religious minorities, which company would you recommend they work for?

  133. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I have never given a thought to my company’s harassment policy and at the same time I do not harass people.

    Which religion would you rather belong to – one that has rules against alcoholic beverages or one that does not? Which will have more of a drinking problem?

    At least in the previous generation all the studies showed that the baptists had a much higher rate of alcoholism than the jews who have no rules about drinking.

    I do love your suggestion. Hey, this company pays less, has no benefits but they do have a great harassment policy – I would go to work for them 😉
    Are you suggesting that we should or even could outlaw racism and it goes away?

  134. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Back to my example of racism against Jews. I work for a company owned by 2 Jews – a father and a son. You hear the sales guys complain about their commission – those Jews are toocheap to pay us more. You will hear the office staff complain about broken equipment etc with “those Jews are too cheap to get it fixed – or we only get 6 holidays a year because those Jews… you get the picture.

    Now what I am led to believe by this these conversations are back in vogue since Trump became president – and that during the Obama administration, folks were more kind and just said “the bosses are too cheap to pay better commissions, etc.

    Anyone who believes this to be true, at least in my mind has forfeited their right to social commentary.

  135. Jean says:

    I love the way you dodge questions, change the subject, and try to bamboozle the readers with your sophestry. But, at least you’re not being Lutheran.

  136. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Perhaps we are 2 different types of Lutherans – I will leave it at that.

    I did answer Question #1 – I do not think that because a company has an anti harassment policy necessarily lessens harassment. It may allow them to fire people more easily for harassment – but if the company did a better job on the front end screening potential new hires, they wouldn’t need the policy. This was my example about the religious drinking rules.

    I answered Question #2 – I have never, ever, gone to work for a company based on their harassment policy – I know my wife has not and I just texted my daughter and asked her and she has not either.

    The answer to Question #3 is obvious – if you (and I don’t mean you you) would raise your sons properly, then I would not need to worry about my wife, daughter or granddaughters.

  137. Duane Arnold says:

    #137 Jean

    MLD may be a creationist… but he is, I think, a social Darwinist – no rules, survival of the fittest. Just an opinion.

  138. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Isn’t it funny that I suggested people raise their kids right and I get labeled with what you intended as a “religious” slur. Good job.

    But perhaps it is your idea to control thought – at all levels. I would imagine you are also a supporter of curtailing religious free speech as it may harm tender ears.

    Again, my point is that Trump is not the cause of greater racial tension – Michael has been complaining about the “preppers” in his area since I have known him.

  139. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Just read this article. The stabber on the Portland train is a Trump hater and big time Bernie supporter.

    Hey all you liberals out there – can’t you control your own as they seem to be the ones bringing back hate in our country.

  140. Michael says:

    Trump is the cause of increased racial tension as his campaign and supporters have given people the freedom to express and act on what they really believe.

    You can deny it all you want…but the teachers here and my personal experience in seeing how things have changed just in the places we frequent says you’re wrong.

  141. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael , I agree that Bernie and Jill Stein supporters are mentally ill.

    The point was that the first word out was he was a Trump supporter and if you read the comments you can see the accusations flowing that this was a man who wanted a Trump America – and this is not rue – he wanted a Bernie America and set out to claim it..

    Just take the hit and move on.

  142. Michael says:


    His last tweets indicated a support of Trump.

    I think in any case his actions were those of a very deranged man and not representative of anything but hate trying to find a place to act.

    This does not change one iota what we are seeing in this valley…which is the only place I can speak to with first hand knowledge.

  143. Michael says:

    Here in the Rogue Valley, I’m not the one taking a hit.

    Hispanic youth and other people of color most certainly are.

  144. Xenia says:

    The president calls people names and suggests they be beaten up and we are shocked that this gives people permission to do likewise.

    What was the percentage of a certain demographic that voted for Trump? Wasn’t it around 80 percent? These Christians, the salt of the American earth it was thought, love this guy and his insulting, non-Christian behavior. You don’t think this doesn’t give some people permission to act out on their wicked beliefs which until now have been more or less squelched? “Hey, if my dear old Sunday School teacher loves this man and tells me he was sent by God to make America great again why can’t I behave like he does?” imagining they are helping to make America great again. You know, back when blacks had their own drinking fountains.

    Christians endorsed him and his behavior, causing many to believe this is acceptable Christian behavior and they are acting on it. It will only get worse.

  145. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I think my #136 argues against racism coming alive again – as it never left.

  146. dusty says:

    Big brother, you deserve a vacation so take off all the weekends you want 🙂

  147. Jean says:

    Xenia wrote:

    “Christians endorsed him and his behavior, causing many to believe this is acceptable Christian behavior and they are acting on it.”

    This is the very worst part of the story. As Duane said yesterday, it goes with a mentality of “the ends justify the means.”

  148. em... again says:

    as i read the thread this morning one thing stands out for me…
    the wicked world of politics manipulate us all with greater skill than we realize

  149. Xenia says:

    What’s more, how is this affecting the children of enthusiastic Trump supporters?

    Are they being taught that this is acceptable behavior for Christians?

  150. Duane Arnold says:


    There is such a thing as “societal norms”… many of them are being stripped away. One would have to be blind not to see it.

  151. Michael says:

    “What’s more, how is this affecting the children of enthusiastic Trump supporters?”

    Go ask the teachers and admins at T’s school…they will answer if you promise not to repeat what they say…

  152. em... again says:

    if one wants to take umbrage at the bad actors who claim to be Trump supporters, to call them out for what they are, i have no problem with that…

    but to say that what we are seeing erupting all over the nation is the result of Trump in the White House, then maybe it’s a good thing that we elected the man… the mindless, ugly behavior is not all in one camp – perhaps, the acting out will wake us up as a nation
    children do not always adopt the values of their parents – as every Christian parent knows too well

    perhaps today is the one day of the year that we can ask ourselves what honors our dead soldiers?

  153. Michael says:


    “perhaps today is the one day of the year that we can ask ourselves what honors our dead soldiers?”

    I think that’s a great question and I almost wrote about it today…perhaps we’ll talk about it on the Memorial Day thread.

  154. Xenia says:

    All of us harbor dark thoughts. It is a mark of civilized people to keep these thoughts to ourselves.

    This is eroding.

  155. em... again says:

    #157 – interesting observation as i’ve been thinking about what has changed in this nation over the 81 years i’ve experienced? …
    there has most definitely been a change…
    it occurred to me that my generation and the one before mine walked this nation over and upon the rocks as much as possible, then came a generation that preferred to get down in the dirt and turn the rocks over, letting all the creepiness see the light of day…
    to be sure, the question now is how to become civilized again because those dark thoughts are the product of a fallen race and do have to be managed…
    even our best attempts cannot clean up the planet, however…
    only God, Himself can do that

  156. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Duane, societal norms? I guess you must have missed the 60s.

  157. Xenia says:

    Em, I think so.

    Recently people have been talking about JFK, who would have been 100.

    I do not find him to be an admirable person at all: a sex addict who lied to the American people about his serious health condition and who knows what else. Yet the press kept that under wraps for the good of the country.

    I think respect for the president died under Nixon and investigative reporters became the heroes of the republic. Now everything and everyone is fair game and nothing is left to the imagination. And we eat it all up.

  158. em... again says:

    Xenia, we used to try to make the ideals the standard that we carried (that probably included denial), now it seems that we are driven to expose everything as if, in doing so, we can reform it all – i don’t know… given enough time …?…

    for the record, JFK was a charmer, but we, in my camp, felt there was something sleazy there all along… was he a bad guy or just another sinner? dunno, but for sure politics makes hypocrites

  159. Duane Arnold says:

    #159 MLD

    I was actually in the 60s…
    I’m talking about the societal norms of courtesy, civility in speech and action, fairness in debate, the use of language, not using terms that might cause offense owing to a person’s background or race… In other words, common decency.

    Common decency is hard enough to maintain, but when the behavior of a cretan is exhibited by our head of state, it makes the task much, much more difficult, if not impossible… as we have seen.

  160. Descended says:

    Not understanding why white supremacy and social or economic liberalism is mutually exclusive. Stalin, anyone? China and one child policy, anyone? Islamic socialism, perhaps?

    “Trump is the cause of increased racial tension as his campaign and supporters have given people the freedom to express and act on what they really believe.”

    I’m no fan of Trump. I keep my expectations low.

    To begin with, are we conveniently forgetting the history of the Democratic party? With which party do supporters of infanticide align themselves?

    Antifa, BLM, BDS? These are Trump supporters? No, sir. Your statement is maddeningly obtuse.

    All people need is an excuse. Trump is simply an excuse for all all the asshats on every side of any issue to be who they want to be. Not only Trump supporters. Not even comparable.

  161. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Duane @ 162,
    Then you should be having this conversation with the Left – not me. Each thing you listed we have seen broken – and if I can isolate for clarity – just look at Berkeley this years – but not restricted to them, but all over the nation.
    1.) no civility in speech – just use the ‘shout down’ method.
    2.) Action – burn down public property
    3.) terms that might cause offense = call your opponents (all of them Nazis and Fascists.
    4.) fairness in debate? The left has closed down all debate.
    5.) “not using terms that might cause offense owing to a person’s background or race…” – you must be by labeling and restricting participation of whites because of the ‘so called’ White Privilege.
    6.) Common Decency – like shouting down the Secretary of Education during a commencement address or walking out on the Vice President during his?
    7.) Common decency part 2 = I won’t even mention the ladies who dress up like vaginas – go figure.

    Yes you are correct – the left is breaking all of the societal norms — go speak to them.

  162. Duane Arnold says:

    #164 MLD

    Actually, all of what I listed I had experienced at Concordia long before the various events you listed…

  163. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Lutheran shaming doesn’t wear well on you.

    I have had much better people than you try to shame my association with Luther and the Lutheran Church.
    But this does help me understand why you have such a hard time having people warm up to you when you attend new churches. (as you have written about)

  164. em... again says:

    as i have said before, i learn from everyone who posts here on the Phoenix Preacher site…
    at some time or other you may be sure if you have posted your thots here, i have read and said ‘amen’ to that…
    i think we too easily take offense (nothing new about that) and that offense can come from a number of situations and words spoken…
    just when should we take offense? call out a lie? not sure, but i do love this one… Acts 23:3 … in its context Paul seems to imply that there are times to verbally strike back, kind of like saying, “God’s going to get you for that.” 🙂

  165. Duane Arnold says:

    #166 MLD

    “I have had much better people than you try to shame my association with Luther and the Lutheran Church.”

    I’m sure you have. I think my breaking point came when I asked a Prof. if it would be acceptable for a confessing Lutheran judge to wear the eagle and swastika on his robes and give his judgements based upon the Nuremberg race laws of 1935. Expounding on Romans 13, he said, “Absolutely” and went on to defend the position in front of the class… Speaks for itself…

  166. Xenia says:

    Pretty much everyone would point to the sixties as the beginning of the cultural decline in America and the western world in general.

    And I think a lot of it can be blamed* on the invention of the birth control pill.

    Because of the pill, sex had no consequences. Sex and its consequences is pretty much the basis of most cultural norms: How do we keep our young women from getting pregnant by a male who will not provide for her? is the question all cultures had to answer, be they Christian or pagan.

    That question is irrelevant now.

    Women can be as wanton as they wanna be and there will be no immediate consequence. Young girls can go to school dressed as hookers with clothing provided by their parents.

    TV and movies assume fornication is the norm, and why not? What are the consequences? Certainly not a baby and a shot-gun wedding.

    While it is true that was a great deal of premarital sex throughout human history, in the past the fathers were expected to assume responsibly. Not so now: if the girl gets pregnant it’s her own fault for not taking the pill. And she could always have gotten an abortion.

    You can’t undermine one of the basic elements of society without the rest of the culture collapsing as well, which is what we are seeing today.

    MLD will say things have always been bad. That’s his mantra. But there will come a time, and this may or not be it, when it becomes apparent that things are profoundly different.


    *Actually, the Pill is not to blame, sinful human nature is to blame. The pill just made it easier to get away with certain sinful behaviors.

  167. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Duane, if I found some Anglican professor who at anytime held a position deemed evil – does that bring Anglicanism to it’s knees and you depart?

    So, you spoke to some nit wit Lutheran prof — what is that suppose to mean to me?

  168. Duane Arnold says:

    “But there will come a time, and this may or not be it, when it becomes apparent that things are profoundly different.”

    Xenia, I think we’re just about there…

  169. Duane Arnold says:

    #170 MLD

    If I told you who it was… you might feel differently…

  170. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “MLD will say things have always been bad.”

    Well bad in biblical standards – for those participating – not so much, they just thought they were living their life.

    I would offer up the crude, debauched lifestyles of the wild wild west – I will offer up what was going on during the roaring 20s.

    If you want to experience what it was like, go and read the sermons of those time periods and see what the preachers were preaching against. Mind boggling.

  171. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Duane, you are the biggest name dropper on the blog – it will not affect me one bit who it was. My tribe is full of sinners, in fact we may exceed 100% — which is probably unlike yours.

    But the question is if I found someone making a similar comment in your tribe are you going to fold up tent and move out? This is an easy question.

  172. Duane Arnold says:


    You continue with personal insults as a matter of course… I have to say, I find it amusing… and predictable. It is, as they say, “stock in trade”.

    No, I would not fold up my tent, but I would be honest about the position put forward.

  173. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Duane, I have not said things about you and unlike you who continually denomination shame I don’t bring up yours.
    You toss out your associations as if they are to mean something or sway the conversation.

    So you are the highly called minister who knows everyone and I am, as you called me, the peanut gallery, who has only book learnin’ experience and I only know Joe Six pack.

    Carry on.

  174. Duane Arnold says:


    Many thanks, I will certainly carry on…

  175. dusty says:

    MLD and Duane, why so mean to each other. I hope it is not serious but just in good nature.

  176. dusty says:

    Bob1 and John20:29 thank you for your kindness.

  177. dusty says:

    Big brother still praying for you for everything. ..hugs

  178. dusty says:

    Nice outside here . 77 slight breeze. Just got back from a walk..1 and a half miles . Doesn’t seem to help me loose weight but it is good for me none the less.

    Hope you all had a nice day wherever you are.

  179. dusty says:

    Praying for the kid from the skate park. Hoping he gets the help he needs.

  180. dusty says:

    Praying for surfer51 , david, hope you are doing ok.

  181. Xenia says:

    ((((( Dusty ))))

  182. dusty says:

    ((((Hugs))))) back at ya Xenia. You are such a lovely lady!

  183. em... again says:

    too long a read for the last evening of a 3 day weekend, i know, but maybe we need some of these fellas to show up again… Mark Matthews famous pastor of the 1st Presbyterian Church of Seattle… probably too extreme and not enough credentials to make it in mainstream religion today…

    Xenia’s observation on birth control is too true – IMHO – however, it is not that easy for that father to get off the hook today with our DNA search capabilities…
    raising children was not an easy chore back in the day when diapers were washed, boiled maybe, and hung on the line to dry and mama would not hand them over to daycare as long as papa brought home enough to get by on (a roof over their heads, food on the table and carfare)… who would have thought that children could anchor morality in those tiny little grasping fingers?

  184. Jean says:

    “who would have thought that children could anchor morality in those tiny little grasping fingers?”

    God knew what he was doing when he created the family (i.e., husband and wife and offspring) as normative for human beings. When society moves away from God’s wisdom, unintended consequences and bad things tend to happen.

  185. Duane Arnold says:

    #178 Dusty

    Always in good nature.

  186. dusty says:

    Duane, oh good , that makes me feel better.

  187. Descended says:


    Your keyboard’s on fire

  188. David H says:

    Dusty you have such a caring heart.

  189. CostcoCal says:


    So is the tongue.

    Sorry, I jest. 🙂

  190. Duane Arnold says:

    Dusty reminds us of what is really important…

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