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  1. Tony says:

    i hate beating this dead horse I just want to get it out of my system I would like to ask the phoenix preacher community do you guys know are there any places I could take the information I found that debunks Johanna Michaelsen once and for all?

  2. Josh the Baptist says:

    Tony, I’d just moved on. To anyone who cares, she is thoroughly debunked elsewhere on the internet. To those who aren’t convinced, they won’t be swayed.

  3. Michael says:


    I’m with Josh.
    That book is forty years old and no one cares.
    The few who do won’t be swayed by evidence.

  4. JD says:

    Never heard of her.

  5. Tony says:

    i understand you guys, the reason why I asked was because Michaelsen said she is trying to republish her book. I guess that because no one really debunked her during the 1980s and 90s at the height of her power I felt like it needed to be done because it still does bother me sometimes.

  6. Tony says:

    @Josh I might be one of those people who you are referring I guess I am trying to figure out what “really” happened even though it might be ultimately futile.

  7. I posted this yesterday on my blog. How my son’s sprained ankle showed me one of his deepest passions.

  8. Josh the Baptist says:

    Tony – Google “Johanna Michaelsen debunked”

    Thousands of links for anyone and everyone who cares to read.

    Time to move on.

  9. Tony says:

    I think I might have been responsible for some of those links. I was asking around the internet

  10. Tony says:

    Like I said I feel like I am too obsessed with trying to get to the bottom of the story so to speak

  11. Duane Arnold says:

    Came across this in my reading this morning,

    “For the Gentiles, hearing from our mouth the words of God, are impressed by their beauty and greatness: then, learning that our works are not worthy of the things we say, they turn to railing, saying that it is some deceitful tale. For when they hear from us that God says: ‘No thanks will be due to you, if ye love only those who love you; but thanks will be due to you, if you love your enemies and those that hate you’—when they hear this, they are impressed by the over abundance of goodness: but when they see that we do not love, not only those who hate us, but even those who love us, they laugh at us, and the Name is blasphemed.”
    ~ The 2nd Epistle of Clement

  12. em... again says:

    Tony, sometimes it pays to just keep information on the shelf knowing that, if it is needed God has your number 🙂

  13. Jean says:


    Martin Luther would approve of that quotation from Clement. Here is Dr. Luther, putting the principle in a positive way, in a sermon on Luke 6:36-42:

    “From this one can easily see that Christ does not here teach us to become pious and just through our works, but admonishes those who were already pious and just, that they be merciful like their Father in heaven, so that the heathen may thereby become better, and that thus unbelievers may be kindly enticed to become converted and edified, not only by preaching, but also by the merciful and blameless lives and good conduct of the good and just.”

  14. ( |o )====::: says:

    From the highly entertaining Encyclopedia of American Loons…


  15. em... again says:

    #11 – was reading similar words myself this morning… thinking on the souls who come here wounded by the churches in one way or another… and how i’ve been lacking in my prayers for Christians that don’t “suit my fancy”
    thinking on my own wounds and how it is incumbent on me to love first – to pray for those who’ve taken it upon themselves to play judge, jury and executioner…

  16. John 20:29 says:

    a beautiful chapel (on the campus of ECU, i believe) given by a man in memory of his wife long years ago will be stripped of its Christian symbols… this makes me sad today

  17. ( |o )====::: says:

    Why not simply build an interfaith building and leave the historical in place, as long as there is no racism?

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Hey, that sounds like my last Calvary Chapel – they removed all crosses and religious symbols for the exact same reason – the leadership found them offensive.

  19. em... again says:

    the terrorists blow up their historical treasures, we’re more civilized – we neutralize them – no sense in wasting good usable real estate
    i wonder how life will be when everything is finally neutral…. can’t have street names or even people names – they’re not neutral (you’ll have to live on 345 1 street)… or rooms, can’t call them bedrooms or bathrooms or living rooms… we might offend the insomniacs, the non bathers and the dead… can’t have white or black paint or yellow or red…?… and what will the electricians call those thingies that connect the power? ooops, sorry can’t have electricians, that will offend greenies who’ve given their lives to defend the planet from coal (green is okay unless we learn that plants take offense)… and then there’s power, now that’s an offensive word if there ever was one

    ‘course G’s solution won’t work, it’s too rational, too compromising, too … good

  20. Jean says:

    The cross is not a flag that someone plants to claim geography. The cross is a symbol of devotion respected by people who believe that Jesus is the Lord and Savior by virtue of his atoning death on the cross.

    Was that chapel actually used by Christians as a place of worship? Or was it, like so many other chapels in public universities simply a historic building with Christian iconography? I suspect that if Christians actually used the chapel as a place of worship that the administration would have been much more reticent about removing the Christian symbols. But, if it wasn’t being used, the administration probably didn’t give it a lot of thought.

    Then, once the atheists came in with a demand to remove the Christian symbols, then the Christians got defensive and pushed back. Not that they actually use the chapel or care all that much about the chapel, but just that they want to keep their Christian flag planted there.

  21. John 20:29 says:

    Jean, i am quite sure (presumptive, i know) that when the chapel was donated, the steeple erected and the cross planted atop – the intent was to state the Faith of the one in whose memory it was donated…
    IMHO – in this world there are few things more beautiful than a steeple atop which, standing as a flag – an ensign of the followers of Christ – a simple statement is made with the placement of that symbol
    i wish we were so open to the world about our Faith that all would see it and remember why it is loved by the Church… why those steeples rose to the sky to hold the ensign in the first place

  22. Em says:

    Praying for those who entered the Family or were nurtured within the Calgary Chapel structure… it must feel very much like the disintegration of one’s family – so confusing and hurtful – praying, too for the egos, so strong that God can’t be heard over the delusions of loyalty … not my history, by the mercies of God, I’m only guessing, of course – but as I read the other threads my prayers are with the CD peeps tonight

  23. JD says:

    I always thought that churches that showed pictures of Santa Claus at Christmas time were wierd.

  24. Scooter Jones says:

    Happy 4th everyone. Despite it’s flaws, I can’t think of one single country I would rather live in or of grown up in.

  25. Descended says:

    How many countries countries in the world can one drive across without knowing you may be robbed or killed?

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