I remember as an evangelical in the late 80s we were admonished by church leaders to lobby for cutting off public funding to the arts because Andres Serrano had received funds to create his art – Piss Jesus – a crucifix submerged in a jar of urine.
I think this is a very worthwhile article. Joel Hess leads off with “Though its intention was to shock or upset the majority of middle class law abiding Christians, for Lutherans proper, it should be applauded. It has blessed my mind and my confession.”
After reading this it does bless me — and I hope it will do the same for you.
Every time i hear a Lutheran view of our Christian doctrines i want to tweak it a bit. ?
Absolute fatigue this a.m., The fire has moved on and, except fir a rattlesnake biting a firefighter, there has been no injury, death or loss of homes…. Now i’ll just spend this day on the couch, amazed at God’s grace and grateful for it and for the pray-ers
Well, MLD, Martin Luther would be in big trouble if he pounded nails into my front door…. beyond that i dont have very much in common with the Papal lineage. ?
Can i take advantage of open blog to say that the folks who were out there on the ground fighting this Cougar Creek fire were a cut above average. Polite, confident and competent…
It is quite nerve wracking to look out your window in the black of night and see, 400 ft. from your back door, the blackness covered in glowing orange dots of spot fires covering the invisible hill. But at the base of the hill bright, bobbing lights on the helmets of the night crew, looking like a swarm of alien beings (surreal), told you that were people out there in the dark telling those little glowing orange demons, “this far and NO farther!” All night!
I dont know if looks were a qualification to fight our fire, but this was a gathering of very good looking men. Maybe, being a hero contributes to that? Even tho they get a paycheck, this is one brave, incredibly hard working group. My unbelieving neighbor declares thank the furefighters, not God. Still i do thank God for them and i pray for their safety….
Philippians 1:15-18 reminds me to always be glad the Gospel is preached, and that many have come to faith in spite of human limitations. If people trust Jesus at the Harvest Crusade, I will gladly rejoice.
I just think Greg is playing up the whole matter of the banner at the mall for all it’s worth. Getting a yawn from me. Faux-persecution.
If anyone is interested there is an editorial written in the LA Times today written by Greg Laurie. It has received 130 comments so far, which is an unusually large amount of comments. Obviously, His editorial hit a nerve . The editorial has a headline, ” Why does the Bible Offend? ” It seems a billboard in Irvine was taken down which featured Greg Laurie because there were some complaints. However, most of the comments amounted to this: ” We are not offended by the Bible so much as we are offended by the hypocrite s using the Bible as a weapon and as a political tool. ” If you are interested in why so many are leaving evangelical churches, you will find the130 comments very illuminating.
The God and His Book offends no matter what kind of a twist we fabricate to explain it away
For instance my neighbor who declared that thanking an imaginary God for what the firefighters up here accomplished was denying reality. ? Well….
this evening the wind came up gangbusters and blew one of the spotfires across the river into the land across the road from her home… wind driven sparks were flying onto her property like the devil was stirring his bonfire… Firefighters couldnt stop that spark shower, but some of us were praying to the God who can control the wind and He did ?
Credit where it is due, every fire truck patrolling our valley tonight converged on the fire and it is under control now
Thank God, the One we will all face eventually, eh….
RE: Greg Laurie and the Harvest Crusade.
He actually used that tired platitude in the LA Times Op-Ed. A Bible that’s falling apart is an indication of a life that isn’t.
My Bible and life both fell apart years ago. I even learned to read from it in first grade.
Saw an article that a few thousand responded to Greg’s message last night. While in CC I spent several years in the same church as Ray Comfort who made a splash with his book “Hell’s Best Kept Secret.”
He contended that crusade evangelism simply created a lot of false converts and he became quite well known for his teachings. He often stepped into the pulpit when our Pastor was away and there were always many coming to faith and the rest for the most part going forward to re-dedicate their lives to Christ.
I do hope and pray that were genuine conversions last night and they will get plugged into a fine church.
I believe Greg could have written a different article and it would still have generated spirited dialogue. That’s a given these days for believers who are in the news for whatever reason.
I’m aware of how it seems Greg seems to become the story for any number of reasons which have been discussed here and elsewhere. We live in interesting times.
I don’t think any of us can assess the impact of the Harvest show…I think it’s mainly entertainment for evangelicals and there’s nothing really wrong with that.
Greg promotes himself tirelessly…which may be why he’s getting some pushback.
“I don’t think any of us can assess the impact of the Harvest show…I think it’s mainly entertainment for evangelicals and there’s nothing really wrong with that.
I recall at the beginning I went to see the bands as they put on a good show. It was entertainment with a Gospel presentation to conclude. As a parent and Grandparent now I have to be honest and say I’d be content if our children went to the crusade. I know they’ll be safe and with other believers. It beats a ton of other stuff that I consider dangerous.
I believe part of the issue for Greg is his involvement with our President. Especially when you see who else the President considers as spiritual advisors. That invites a lot of criticism from everyone.
I try to see the good in things but I understand people’s concerns with and for Greg. I remember he used to check in here after his crussades as the complaint was he didn’t mention sin. Maybe he still reads and might consider some of what he reads???
I’ve seen the good and bad within CC close up and have experienced both.
On another note I’m angry that the president of the Mormon church has gotten word from “on high” that the word Mormon shouldn’t be used in reference to that cult. Anyways I hope your health is holding up. Allan
I have attended about six Harvest Crusades. I haven’t been for the past six years. Year after year it was the same basic format and message. Christian pop music, Laurie giving the same message with updated pop culture quotes and stories. Then the alter call. Most of the people down on the field were Volunteers and rededications. And, you could get some cool “Christian” tchotchkes, and tee shirts.
The crusade may be doing God’s work, but it sure does a lot to line some pockets.
I think I’d finally had it when he interviewed Phil Roberts from Duck Dynasty at a crusade.
David H, I’ve no idea about the money involved but you pretty much described a crusade. I know that believers who attend and bring unsaved friends are very sincere in hoping their friends and loved ones come to faith.
Some might see them as gullible and uneducated but I believe God works where there is a genuine cry of the heart to have sins forgiven and to walk with God.
It’s a difficult topic. But one thing we know is God works in all sorts of circumstances, even crusades.
ERunner at 5:36…there’s a lot of wisdom in that post!
My former boss is a bishop at his LDS church. He has overwhelmingly preferred the term LDS over Mormon. Mormon has a pejorative implication, especially in light of the the broadway play of the same name. I have found we share more values than not, as an employer, he was always good to me, and he has been open to Bible study approaches and tools I have shared with him since leaving his employ.
Linnea, Mormons are good people in many of their actions. It’s easy to see them as Christians without conversation zeroing in on their belief on who Jesus is. I hope your former boss comes to know the Jesus of the Bible who is the second person of the Trinity.
God does use strange things… The Lutes wouldn’t appreciate my take on it, but they seem to like to point out that our flesh is hopelessly corrupted…. Spirit and flesh …. Lots of good instruction and warnings AND encouragement, too, in our Bible…. I don’t think one can survive if they don’t understand that the day they chose Christ, they stepped into a war and they need “armor” and a renewed mind …. dunno….. ? …..
Em, we Lures know nothing of us choosing Christ. We do however firmly proclaim that Jesus chose us – or in evangelical language, “Jesus made a decision for me.” At baptism he claimed me as his. 🙂
MLD, you Lutes over think think the process. IMO. Maybe even overstate, dunno….
Yes, we are “chosen,” but we are because God knows our souls are searching for Him – man’s heart is deceitful – we may not even be aware that He is what we will respond to as we search, but we will… not because we won in God’s great lottery
Em. I guess evangelicals then underthink the process. If God is looking to the future to see who is seeking him, he is looking into a void as Paul emphasizes the point that no one – not even on seeks after God. Romans 3:10-11
Weeel….
I think i did say that we may not know who or what we are seeking as it is true the natural man cannot know or define God accurately …. But now i am over thinking and my head hurts. LOL
God keep
What man always seeks are false gods and never the true God (whether they can figure him out or not). This is why there are Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Mormons, JWs Taoists etc.
Just skimmed thru the thots on Laurie’s billboard… wasn’t the focus on the Bible? I can’t recall the year, but sometime in the 70s my husband’s employers established a rule that their Christian employees were not to leave their Bibles out in view on their desks… they could have them at work, but they were to be kept out of sight. ?
I can think of someone else who should be honored for the way they’ve served the Lord for years and years (a long, slow obedience in the same direction) and continue to do so….
“It is truly amazing that the Law had the effrontery to turn upon its divine Author, and that without a show of right. For its insolence the Law in turn was arraigned before the judgment seat of God and condemned. Christ might have overcome the Law by an exercise of His omnipotent authority over the Law. Instead, He humbled Himself under the Law for and together with them that were under the Law. He gave the Law license to accuse and condemn Him. His present mastery over the Law was obtained by virtue of His Sonship and His substitutionary victory.
Thus Christ banished the Law from the conscience. It dare no longer banish us from God. For that matter,—the Law continues to reveal sin. It still raises its voice in condemnation. But the conscience finds quick relief in the words of the Apostle: ‘Christ has redeemed us from the law.’ The conscience can now hold its head high and say to the Law: ‘You are not so holy yourself. You crucified the Son of God. That was an awful thing for you to do. You have lost your influence forever.’
The words, ‘Christ was made under the law,’ are worth all the attention we can bestow on them. They declare that the Son of God did not only fulfill one or two easy requirements of the Law, but that He endured all the tortures of the Law. The Law brought all its fright to bear upon Christ until He experienced anguish and terror such as nobody else ever experienced. His bloody sweat. His need of angelic comfort, His tremulous prayer in the garden, His lamentation on the Cross, ‘My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?’ bear eloquent witness to the sting of the Law. He suffered ‘to redeem them that were under the law.’
The Roman conception of Christ as a mere lawgiver more stringent than Moses, is quite contrary to Paul’s teaching. Christ, according to Paul, was not an agent of the Law but a patient of the Law. He was not a law-giver, but a law-taker.
True enough, Christ also taught and expounded the Law. But it was incidental. It was a sideline with Him. He did not come into the world for the purpose of teaching the Law, as little as it was the purpose of His coming to perform miracles. Teaching the Law and performing miracles did not constitute His unique mission to the world. The prophets also taught the Law and performed miracles. In fact, according to the promise of Christ, the apostles performed greater miracles than Christ Himself. (John 14:12.) The true purpose of Christ’s coming was the abolition of the Law, of sin, and of death.
If we think of Christ as Paul here depicts Him, we shall never go wrong. We shall never be in danger of misconstruing the meaning of the Law. We shall understand that the Law does not justify. We shall understand why a Christian observes laws: For the peace of the world, out of gratitude to God, and for a good example that others may be attracted to the Gospel.” – Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians, Chapter 4:4-5.
It’s all yours today…
I remember as an evangelical in the late 80s we were admonished by church leaders to lobby for cutting off public funding to the arts because Andres Serrano had received funds to create his art – Piss Jesus – a crucifix submerged in a jar of urine.
I think this is a very worthwhile article. Joel Hess leads off with “Though its intention was to shock or upset the majority of middle class law abiding Christians, for Lutherans proper, it should be applauded. It has blessed my mind and my confession.”
After reading this it does bless me — and I hope it will do the same for you.
https://thejaggedword.com/2018/08/07/piss-christ-simul-iustus-et-peccator-2/
Every time i hear a Lutheran view of our Christian doctrines i want to tweak it a bit. ?
Absolute fatigue this a.m., The fire has moved on and, except fir a rattlesnake biting a firefighter, there has been no injury, death or loss of homes…. Now i’ll just spend this day on the couch, amazed at God’s grace and grateful for it and for the pray-ers
Em, that’s what all the popes have been saying since we first spoke out in the 16th century. You are in good company 🙂
Stay safe
Em…so glad for the minimal damage! Yes, thankful to God 🙂
Well, MLD, Martin Luther would be in big trouble if he pounded nails into my front door…. beyond that i dont have very much in common with the Papal lineage. ?
Can i take advantage of open blog to say that the folks who were out there on the ground fighting this Cougar Creek fire were a cut above average. Polite, confident and competent…
It is quite nerve wracking to look out your window in the black of night and see, 400 ft. from your back door, the blackness covered in glowing orange dots of spot fires covering the invisible hill. But at the base of the hill bright, bobbing lights on the helmets of the night crew, looking like a swarm of alien beings (surreal), told you that were people out there in the dark telling those little glowing orange demons, “this far and NO farther!” All night!
I dont know if looks were a qualification to fight our fire, but this was a gathering of very good looking men. Maybe, being a hero contributes to that? Even tho they get a paycheck, this is one brave, incredibly hard working group. My unbelieving neighbor declares thank the furefighters, not God. Still i do thank God for them and i pray for their safety….
Anyone else think Greg Laurie is milking the whole “stand for the Bible” thing?
It’s what he does…he’s a promoter.
Also, The Masters University charged with fear, bullying and intimidation by WASC. Accreditation on probation. Great witness.
That’s right! Tonight begins the nation’s largest manifestation of decision theology since the days of Charles Finney, Billy Sunday and Billy Graham.
MLD,
I can’t help but detect a note of sarcasm. Are you thus Blessed by the Piss Christ
And Turned off by the Gospel?
What does it matter, so long as Christ is preached, as the author stated?
May not be your flavor of Gospel but it tastes better than that article you linked.
Philippians 1:15-18 reminds me to always be glad the Gospel is preached, and that many have come to faith in spite of human limitations. If people trust Jesus at the Harvest Crusade, I will gladly rejoice.
I just think Greg is playing up the whole matter of the banner at the mall for all it’s worth. Getting a yawn from me. Faux-persecution.
If anyone is interested there is an editorial written in the LA Times today written by Greg Laurie. It has received 130 comments so far, which is an unusually large amount of comments. Obviously, His editorial hit a nerve . The editorial has a headline, ” Why does the Bible Offend? ” It seems a billboard in Irvine was taken down which featured Greg Laurie because there were some complaints. However, most of the comments amounted to this: ” We are not offended by the Bible so much as we are offended by the hypocrite s using the Bible as a weapon and as a political tool. ” If you are interested in why so many are leaving evangelical churches, you will find the130 comments very illuminating.
The God and His Book offends no matter what kind of a twist we fabricate to explain it away
For instance my neighbor who declared that thanking an imaginary God for what the firefighters up here accomplished was denying reality. ? Well….
this evening the wind came up gangbusters and blew one of the spotfires across the river into the land across the road from her home… wind driven sparks were flying onto her property like the devil was stirring his bonfire… Firefighters couldnt stop that spark shower, but some of us were praying to the God who can control the wind and He did ?
Credit where it is due, every fire truck patrolling our valley tonight converged on the fire and it is under control now
Thank God, the One we will all face eventually, eh….
Greg’s playing the persecuted Christian card did not play well with LAT readers to be sure.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-laurie-socal-harvest-bible-ads-20180817-story.html
RE: Greg Laurie and the Harvest Crusade.
He actually used that tired platitude in the LA Times Op-Ed. A Bible that’s falling apart is an indication of a life that isn’t.
My Bible and life both fell apart years ago. I even learned to read from it in first grade.
I loath platitudes.
Saw an article that a few thousand responded to Greg’s message last night. While in CC I spent several years in the same church as Ray Comfort who made a splash with his book “Hell’s Best Kept Secret.”
He contended that crusade evangelism simply created a lot of false converts and he became quite well known for his teachings. He often stepped into the pulpit when our Pastor was away and there were always many coming to faith and the rest for the most part going forward to re-dedicate their lives to Christ.
I do hope and pray that were genuine conversions last night and they will get plugged into a fine church.
I believe Greg could have written a different article and it would still have generated spirited dialogue. That’s a given these days for believers who are in the news for whatever reason.
I’m aware of how it seems Greg seems to become the story for any number of reasons which have been discussed here and elsewhere. We live in interesting times.
I don’t think any of us can assess the impact of the Harvest show…I think it’s mainly entertainment for evangelicals and there’s nothing really wrong with that.
Greg promotes himself tirelessly…which may be why he’s getting some pushback.
“I don’t think any of us can assess the impact of the Harvest show…I think it’s mainly entertainment for evangelicals and there’s nothing really wrong with that.
I recall at the beginning I went to see the bands as they put on a good show. It was entertainment with a Gospel presentation to conclude. As a parent and Grandparent now I have to be honest and say I’d be content if our children went to the crusade. I know they’ll be safe and with other believers. It beats a ton of other stuff that I consider dangerous.
I believe part of the issue for Greg is his involvement with our President. Especially when you see who else the President considers as spiritual advisors. That invites a lot of criticism from everyone.
I try to see the good in things but I understand people’s concerns with and for Greg. I remember he used to check in here after his crussades as the complaint was he didn’t mention sin. Maybe he still reads and might consider some of what he reads???
I’ve seen the good and bad within CC close up and have experienced both.
On another note I’m angry that the president of the Mormon church has gotten word from “on high” that the word Mormon shouldn’t be used in reference to that cult. Anyways I hope your health is holding up. Allan
I have attended about six Harvest Crusades. I haven’t been for the past six years. Year after year it was the same basic format and message. Christian pop music, Laurie giving the same message with updated pop culture quotes and stories. Then the alter call. Most of the people down on the field were Volunteers and rededications. And, you could get some cool “Christian” tchotchkes, and tee shirts.
The crusade may be doing God’s work, but it sure does a lot to line some pockets.
I think I’d finally had it when he interviewed Phil Roberts from Duck Dynasty at a crusade.
Oh boy, my outlook has changed.
David H, I’ve no idea about the money involved but you pretty much described a crusade. I know that believers who attend and bring unsaved friends are very sincere in hoping their friends and loved ones come to faith.
Some might see them as gullible and uneducated but I believe God works where there is a genuine cry of the heart to have sins forgiven and to walk with God.
It’s a difficult topic. But one thing we know is God works in all sorts of circumstances, even crusades.
ER
I’ve always believed the name Mormon to be a misnomer.
After all, the angel’s name was Moroni.
11:11
ERunner at 5:36…there’s a lot of wisdom in that post!
My former boss is a bishop at his LDS church. He has overwhelmingly preferred the term LDS over Mormon. Mormon has a pejorative implication, especially in light of the the broadway play of the same name. I have found we share more values than not, as an employer, he was always good to me, and he has been open to Bible study approaches and tools I have shared with him since leaving his employ.
JD, it’s been a long term thing for the Mormons to be seen as another Christian denomination. I believe this new tactic will further that lie.
Linnea, Mormons are good people in many of their actions. It’s easy to see them as Christians without conversation zeroing in on their belief on who Jesus is. I hope your former boss comes to know the Jesus of the Bible who is the second person of the Trinity.
https://www.christianpost.com/news/greg-laurie-discusses-pastor-abuse-scandals-safeguards-he-has-as-megachurch-pastor-226865/
I watched a few minutes of Harvest.
It’s like watching a foreign film to me…vaguely familiar,but I just can’t understand it.
I did enjoy watching the rappers reaching for their crotches repeatedly, then remembering where they were…
God has used stranger things, I suppose…
God does use strange things… The Lutes wouldn’t appreciate my take on it, but they seem to like to point out that our flesh is hopelessly corrupted…. Spirit and flesh …. Lots of good instruction and warnings AND encouragement, too, in our Bible…. I don’t think one can survive if they don’t understand that the day they chose Christ, they stepped into a war and they need “armor” and a renewed mind …. dunno….. ? …..
Em, we Lures know nothing of us choosing Christ. We do however firmly proclaim that Jesus chose us – or in evangelical language, “Jesus made a decision for me.” At baptism he claimed me as his. 🙂
MLD, you Lutes over think think the process. IMO. Maybe even overstate, dunno….
Yes, we are “chosen,” but we are because God knows our souls are searching for Him – man’s heart is deceitful – we may not even be aware that He is what we will respond to as we search, but we will… not because we won in God’s great lottery
Em. I guess evangelicals then underthink the process. If God is looking to the future to see who is seeking him, he is looking into a void as Paul emphasizes the point that no one – not even on seeks after God. Romans 3:10-11
Weeel….
I think i did say that we may not know who or what we are seeking as it is true the natural man cannot know or define God accurately …. But now i am over thinking and my head hurts. LOL
God keep
What man always seeks are false gods and never the true God (whether they can figure him out or not). This is why there are Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Mormons, JWs Taoists etc.
Greg’s Christian Post seemed similar (to me) with Bob Russell’s blog post. Neither of them wrote a word about the victims of pastoral abuse.
https://www.bobrussell.org/these-pastors-stories-wont-make-the-new-york-times/
Here’s the link to what Bob Russell blogged last week.
Just skimmed thru the thots on Laurie’s billboard… wasn’t the focus on the Bible? I can’t recall the year, but sometime in the 70s my husband’s employers established a rule that their Christian employees were not to leave their Bibles out in view on their desks… they could have them at work, but they were to be kept out of sight. ?
E…yes, I hope he does come to know the Lord.
I can think of someone else who should be honored for the way they’ve served the Lord for years and years (a long, slow obedience in the same direction) and continue to do so….
Former President Jimmy Carter
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/national/wp/2018/08/17/feature/the-un-celebrity-president-jimmy-carter-shuns-riches-lives-modestly-in-his-georgia-hometown/?utm_term=.d1cfdd288dd3
For those burdened by sin:
“It is truly amazing that the Law had the effrontery to turn upon its divine Author, and that without a show of right. For its insolence the Law in turn was arraigned before the judgment seat of God and condemned. Christ might have overcome the Law by an exercise of His omnipotent authority over the Law. Instead, He humbled Himself under the Law for and together with them that were under the Law. He gave the Law license to accuse and condemn Him. His present mastery over the Law was obtained by virtue of His Sonship and His substitutionary victory.
Thus Christ banished the Law from the conscience. It dare no longer banish us from God. For that matter,—the Law continues to reveal sin. It still raises its voice in condemnation. But the conscience finds quick relief in the words of the Apostle: ‘Christ has redeemed us from the law.’ The conscience can now hold its head high and say to the Law: ‘You are not so holy yourself. You crucified the Son of God. That was an awful thing for you to do. You have lost your influence forever.’
The words, ‘Christ was made under the law,’ are worth all the attention we can bestow on them. They declare that the Son of God did not only fulfill one or two easy requirements of the Law, but that He endured all the tortures of the Law. The Law brought all its fright to bear upon Christ until He experienced anguish and terror such as nobody else ever experienced. His bloody sweat. His need of angelic comfort, His tremulous prayer in the garden, His lamentation on the Cross, ‘My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?’ bear eloquent witness to the sting of the Law. He suffered ‘to redeem them that were under the law.’
The Roman conception of Christ as a mere lawgiver more stringent than Moses, is quite contrary to Paul’s teaching. Christ, according to Paul, was not an agent of the Law but a patient of the Law. He was not a law-giver, but a law-taker.
True enough, Christ also taught and expounded the Law. But it was incidental. It was a sideline with Him. He did not come into the world for the purpose of teaching the Law, as little as it was the purpose of His coming to perform miracles. Teaching the Law and performing miracles did not constitute His unique mission to the world. The prophets also taught the Law and performed miracles. In fact, according to the promise of Christ, the apostles performed greater miracles than Christ Himself. (John 14:12.) The true purpose of Christ’s coming was the abolition of the Law, of sin, and of death.
If we think of Christ as Paul here depicts Him, we shall never go wrong. We shall never be in danger of misconstruing the meaning of the Law. We shall understand that the Law does not justify. We shall understand why a Christian observes laws: For the peace of the world, out of gratitude to God, and for a good example that others may be attracted to the Gospel.” – Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians, Chapter 4:4-5.