I am in the camp that thinks the history of the United States has been as successful as it has been because of the prominence of the Christian Church … Not claiming we’ve been a perfect nation at all – no secular nation can or will be that…
Coming off of reading the thoughts of all the serious Believers here the last few days… and watching the political chaos fomenting now – no matter your political leanings, you can’t deny this…
So?
So i’m wondering how much the blog participants are lifting us, both the Church and the nation, to the Father. We need grace and mercy AND guidance now… AND we know where to go to get it, do we not?
God keep
I don’t think the religious veneer had as much to do with it as vast natural resources and an economic system built for the times.
I’m required to pray for the leaders of the country in the Daily Office.
What I pray is probably best kept to myself…
“The climate was not changing because of orbital cycles, which bring about ice ages, Hayhoe maintained. “The Earth’s temperature peaked eight thousand years ago and was in a long, slow slide into the next ice age until the Industrial Revolution,” she said. Instead of being in this cooling period, the planet had seen its average temperature steadily rise.”
The Earth’s temperature didn’t “peak” 8 thousand years ago, we were coming out of the last Ice Age. We are still about 5 degrees C below the global MEAN temp over Earth’s history.
That being said, I applaud her drive to address vulnerable peoples affected by rising sea levels. Given than man-made structures went under water long before the industrial age, maybe we’re missing the point: as my geology prof used to say, “don’t want to experience floods? Don’t build in a flood plain. That it hadn’t happened in a hundred years is irrelevant. You’re in a flood plain. It happened before, many times.”
Em: the USA certainly has its own dark history, yet in talking to and working with immigrants for almost three decades, what I get from them is that they are thankful to be here given the endemic corruption from top to bottom from their former lands. Thankful that we don’t have to carry cash to bribe a cop at a traffic stop, to get a marriage license (my friend from India told me), or to get through customs when returning to visit. Though we do seem to be becoming post-Christian, I think that the moral inertia does come from our Christian roots, warts and all. My Indian friend called us a Christian nation without missing a beat, though she’s a practicing Hindu, and a Brahmin.
“ Though we do seem to be becoming post-Christian, …”
When I read this kind of thing I often ask myself, “what doe it mean to be a Christian Nation or a Person to others?”
I think some might answer, “it means we recognize Jesus and God as supreme.”
But, I think what it really means is, in general, we care about the welfare of others, believe in fair justice and our laws are designed so that people will not be overly subjugated to people.
If that is a fair general description of what it means to be identified as a “Christian” then yes we are definitely in a “post” era. I might also slip in a large majority of our worship and practice these days is also “post Christian.”
My favorite Bible teacher described the influence that Christianity had in the U.S. as the pivot – there were enough of us to be a major player, influencing the direction and our core values … today in my neck of the woods, churches have been turned into community centers, sporting goods stores and homes …
Today’s msg. from the late Adrian Rogers – Baptist alert – was in Rev. 10… he observed that the instruction to John could/should apply to the Church… The Bible is both bitter and sweet, but we should absorb and stand behind both aspects
Speaking years ago, he observed that the churches are preaching the love, but not the [holy] wrath of God that is promised .. . and described in the Book
We are ODing on sweets? Spiritually diabetic? Faint?
Climate change? Very likely, but our ego-driven educators (not all) who preach giving up the combustion engine, cows and coal will bring back paradise (not as scientific as they think) make me think of the folk in the tribulation period described hiding under rocks …. Dunno, though, do i ? ?
Here’s the snag in trying to change the climate through limited carbon footprint;
These days all of us use huge amounts of energy for our “daily and common tasks” compared to the past. I’m typing this on an iPad, which required energy to build, energy to keep charged, energy to transmit my post to the internet, energy to power my WiFi, and energy hooking it up to the internet.
Now just consider multiplying that by, say, 1 billon people, not considering lights, heat, and such mundane things which also use energy, and we have a very large carbon footprint to just send a message to a blog.
I wonder how many consider their carbon footprint and it’s effect when they promote these “green” initiatives?
Of course we could go back to cooking and heating with a true renewable resource, wood.
Beware of the unintended consequences.
Yes He is Lord and today we remember what He has done and is doing to renew us.
MM, using your definition “But, I think what it really means is, in general, we care about the welfare of others, believe in fair justice and our laws are designed so that people will not be overly subjugated to people.” I disagree.
I think our society is far and away more concerned for those in need and those who feel their is an inequity within our system. I did the calculation at one time that helped me decide to retire. My last year working, I paid over 60% of my income in taxes – yes, 60% between Federal, State, sales taxes, property taxes, gasoline taxes, excise taxes (such as those found on your phone bills – both landlines and cell) Social Security, Medicare and disability. I may be missing a couple.
Taxes taken from me were used in the benefit to others (I also had some return benefit like driving on better roadways.)
Now, are you going to claim that this is a lesser ‘christian’ act than when there were no safety net programs for the needy – no food stamps, no welfare, no social security or medicare? Heck, my taxes even fund OSSHA to keep workers safe. I won’t even mention hallmarks of the good old days of a ‘christian nation’ such as slavery and no child protection laws in the labor force. (I guess I did just mention it 🙂 )
When you speak of equity, by the mid 50s there were no protections for women, blacks, who got into schools etc. This has all come about as a result of (using your definition) of what it means to be a ‘christian nation’.
For clarity, I don’t buy your definition – I don’t buy that there is such a thing as a ‘christian nation’. At least that’s the way I see it from my perch.
I wish i could recall which contemporary British ATHEIST observed that the Christian “religion” had done more to better the world’s condition than anything else and, if it goes (raptures?) away, the world will become a living hell.
It has been my observation you don’t “buy” much of what I post, but that’s ok with me.
The intention of my post, which you turned into some sort of political, taxation and the ills of our forefathers based idea, was about what is in the hearts of people. Being “Christian” in life isn’t a creed or a denomination, although those may accurately describe such, it is embrace internally, in heart as we like to say.
Let’s get this out of the way, YES people can act in a “Christian manner” and yet be anti-Jesus. Jesus describe it this way, “they will know you by your …”
That statement goes far beyond tax initiatives, laws about segregation, the “war against poverty,” and those things you seem to focus on. In a culture with all those things hearts can be totally sociopathic and yet outwardly support all you mentioned.
As I hopefully clearly wrote, I also feel what many call “church” these days is nothing more than gathering of individuals who think it’s all about them.
In my definition what make the USA a “Post Christian” culture is what has changed in the hearts of people. And the “church,” more than it wants to admit, is a reflection of that culture.
BTW, this statement: ”
I don’t buy that there is such a thing as a ‘christian nation’. At least that’s the way I see it from my perch.”
Is a weak shot into the air that adds little to the conversation. Considering the term “Post Christian” has been commonly used for at least two decades (or more) by many, I find it fails in describing anything at all.
So I’ve written my piece you are now free to state what you believe the definition of a “Post Christian” nation and culture is. This way, rather than reading your criticisms of what others think, there will be a fair rebuttal and contribution to the definition.
“…I did the calculation at one time that helped me decide to retire. My last year working, I paid over 60% of my income in taxes – yes, 60%…
Taxes taken from me …(I also had some return benefit like driving on better roadways.)”
We all pay taxes and live in the same nation and while I have done things to minimize taxes, it is simply part of the privileges and obligations of living in the USA.
Decades ago I was working with a Mormon fellow and one evening we were walking to dinner in a major city and as we passed a “homeless” man he pulled out a couple of dollars and gave it to him. No signs, no requests just did it.
I was surprised so I asked him why?
He said, “It’s what I do.”
So what did he testify about being a Mormon?
What makes a nation “Christian” to others? It certainly isn’t the taxes.
First, the Mormon testified nothing about being a Mormon. Many individuals do nice things to relieve their guilt or to get praise from friends. However by your original definition the civic side of “a christian nation” makes sense – we agree as Americans to support the needy through a common collection of funds. My point was you made the claim that we no longer care.
Also my point about the amount of taxes was at 69 yrs old at the time, why keep working if I take home so little. Now we live off our SS and I pay no Fed, state, Medicare or SS taxes.
It’s a good deal for me after working 52 yrs.
However, I made no such statement, “My point was you made the claim that we no longer care.”
The statement I made was about, “what is the definition of a “Post Christian” nation.
My answer is in general, as a nation and individuals we have succumbed to being “self interested,” while being “Christian” in life goes beyond politics and the church one attends.
I will retire in a year and a half and these days I work, because I like to have a place to go and contribute to and they pay me to do so. When I “retire” I will do the same (go and contribute) except not receive any funds into my bank account nor at my current place of employment.
The subject of retirement reminds me of the story Jesus told about the man whose “storehouses were full…”
I’m happy for you that retirement has been a good deal.
I forgot to mention, the Mormon made it very clear giving to others, especially the poor, was part of what it means to be a Mormon and was a part of his life.
MM – where do you see that Christians care less about the needs of others vs past generations of Christians?
I think what we see is that Christians aren’t so much tied to the old Fundamentalist who claimed it was evil to work with civic organizations and they attempted to keep all charities “in house”.
I can give to the local city food bank and am not restricted to giving to a church food bank etc. I can give to a community youth reclamation project and not a church based program.
I also hand out cash to the poor – but I don’t preach while I do it – so I leave no evidence that I do it out of church obligation.
But if you can let me know where you see diminished christian concern, I would appreciate it.
So, I just got back from a trip in which I met lots of people from the UK. They have as big a beef as those in the US. I’ve come to conclusion that discussing any political issue is a total waste of time. We need to enjoy the life God has given us and pray for those around us.
MM, you need to go back to your original post. You used the term that we are currently post Christian in caring for people. Today being post Christian implies that previous generations handled these activities in a “christian” manner. So where is your beef with me referring to past generations of Christians? I only asked that you provide a couple of examples where Christian Americans do not provide like Christian Americans of previous generations.
I am making the claim that there is no change in christian behavior or activity towards those in need – from inception to this day. But I will restate that the concept that we have ever been a christian nation is false. We have been a nation full of Christians doing American things. Now if we required Americans to be baptized, then we would have been a Christian nation.
“Now if we required Americans to be baptized, then we would have been a Christian nation.”
No we wouldn’t. We’d be a nation with a Christian facade……
🙂
“…..we live off our SS and I pay no Fed, state, Medicare or SS taxes.” how do you do that? I pay medicare out of my S.S., need a med supplement policy, takes about 1/3 of my pension and I pay some Fed tax on my mandatory withdrawal from my IRA…
Linnea @ 4:33: ” I’ve come to conclusion that discussing any political issue is a total waste of time. We need to enjoy the life God has given us and pray for those around us.”
amen – wise words… and take heart in the hope of His promises (which promises we are building our lives on)
It’s all yours today…
I am in the camp that thinks the history of the United States has been as successful as it has been because of the prominence of the Christian Church … Not claiming we’ve been a perfect nation at all – no secular nation can or will be that…
Coming off of reading the thoughts of all the serious Believers here the last few days… and watching the political chaos fomenting now – no matter your political leanings, you can’t deny this…
So?
So i’m wondering how much the blog participants are lifting us, both the Church and the nation, to the Father. We need grace and mercy AND guidance now… AND we know where to go to get it, do we not?
God keep
I don’t think the religious veneer had as much to do with it as vast natural resources and an economic system built for the times.
I’m required to pray for the leaders of the country in the Daily Office.
What I pray is probably best kept to myself…
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/unfriendly-climate
“The climate was not changing because of orbital cycles, which bring about ice ages, Hayhoe maintained. “The Earth’s temperature peaked eight thousand years ago and was in a long, slow slide into the next ice age until the Industrial Revolution,” she said. Instead of being in this cooling period, the planet had seen its average temperature steadily rise.”
The Earth’s temperature didn’t “peak” 8 thousand years ago, we were coming out of the last Ice Age. We are still about 5 degrees C below the global MEAN temp over Earth’s history.
That being said, I applaud her drive to address vulnerable peoples affected by rising sea levels. Given than man-made structures went under water long before the industrial age, maybe we’re missing the point: as my geology prof used to say, “don’t want to experience floods? Don’t build in a flood plain. That it hadn’t happened in a hundred years is irrelevant. You’re in a flood plain. It happened before, many times.”
Em: the USA certainly has its own dark history, yet in talking to and working with immigrants for almost three decades, what I get from them is that they are thankful to be here given the endemic corruption from top to bottom from their former lands. Thankful that we don’t have to carry cash to bribe a cop at a traffic stop, to get a marriage license (my friend from India told me), or to get through customs when returning to visit. Though we do seem to be becoming post-Christian, I think that the moral inertia does come from our Christian roots, warts and all. My Indian friend called us a Christian nation without missing a beat, though she’s a practicing Hindu, and a Brahmin.
NV
“ Though we do seem to be becoming post-Christian, …”
When I read this kind of thing I often ask myself, “what doe it mean to be a Christian Nation or a Person to others?”
I think some might answer, “it means we recognize Jesus and God as supreme.”
But, I think what it really means is, in general, we care about the welfare of others, believe in fair justice and our laws are designed so that people will not be overly subjugated to people.
If that is a fair general description of what it means to be identified as a “Christian” then yes we are definitely in a “post” era. I might also slip in a large majority of our worship and practice these days is also “post Christian.”
My favorite Bible teacher described the influence that Christianity had in the U.S. as the pivot – there were enough of us to be a major player, influencing the direction and our core values … today in my neck of the woods, churches have been turned into community centers, sporting goods stores and homes …
Today’s msg. from the late Adrian Rogers – Baptist alert – was in Rev. 10… he observed that the instruction to John could/should apply to the Church… The Bible is both bitter and sweet, but we should absorb and stand behind both aspects
Speaking years ago, he observed that the churches are preaching the love, but not the [holy] wrath of God that is promised .. . and described in the Book
We are ODing on sweets? Spiritually diabetic? Faint?
Climate change? Very likely, but our ego-driven educators (not all) who preach giving up the combustion engine, cows and coal will bring back paradise (not as scientific as they think) make me think of the folk in the tribulation period described hiding under rocks …. Dunno, though, do i ? ?
EM, thank you!
Here’s the snag in trying to change the climate through limited carbon footprint;
These days all of us use huge amounts of energy for our “daily and common tasks” compared to the past. I’m typing this on an iPad, which required energy to build, energy to keep charged, energy to transmit my post to the internet, energy to power my WiFi, and energy hooking it up to the internet.
Now just consider multiplying that by, say, 1 billon people, not considering lights, heat, and such mundane things which also use energy, and we have a very large carbon footprint to just send a message to a blog.
I wonder how many consider their carbon footprint and it’s effect when they promote these “green” initiatives?
Of course we could go back to cooking and heating with a true renewable resource, wood.
Beware of the unintended consequences.
Yes He is Lord and today we remember what He has done and is doing to renew us.
MM, using your definition “But, I think what it really means is, in general, we care about the welfare of others, believe in fair justice and our laws are designed so that people will not be overly subjugated to people.” I disagree.
I think our society is far and away more concerned for those in need and those who feel their is an inequity within our system. I did the calculation at one time that helped me decide to retire. My last year working, I paid over 60% of my income in taxes – yes, 60% between Federal, State, sales taxes, property taxes, gasoline taxes, excise taxes (such as those found on your phone bills – both landlines and cell) Social Security, Medicare and disability. I may be missing a couple.
Taxes taken from me were used in the benefit to others (I also had some return benefit like driving on better roadways.)
Now, are you going to claim that this is a lesser ‘christian’ act than when there were no safety net programs for the needy – no food stamps, no welfare, no social security or medicare? Heck, my taxes even fund OSSHA to keep workers safe. I won’t even mention hallmarks of the good old days of a ‘christian nation’ such as slavery and no child protection laws in the labor force. (I guess I did just mention it 🙂 )
When you speak of equity, by the mid 50s there were no protections for women, blacks, who got into schools etc. This has all come about as a result of (using your definition) of what it means to be a ‘christian nation’.
For clarity, I don’t buy your definition – I don’t buy that there is such a thing as a ‘christian nation’. At least that’s the way I see it from my perch.
I wish i could recall which contemporary British ATHEIST observed that the Christian “religion” had done more to better the world’s condition than anything else and, if it goes (raptures?) away, the world will become a living hell.
It has been my observation you don’t “buy” much of what I post, but that’s ok with me.
The intention of my post, which you turned into some sort of political, taxation and the ills of our forefathers based idea, was about what is in the hearts of people. Being “Christian” in life isn’t a creed or a denomination, although those may accurately describe such, it is embrace internally, in heart as we like to say.
Let’s get this out of the way, YES people can act in a “Christian manner” and yet be anti-Jesus. Jesus describe it this way, “they will know you by your …”
That statement goes far beyond tax initiatives, laws about segregation, the “war against poverty,” and those things you seem to focus on. In a culture with all those things hearts can be totally sociopathic and yet outwardly support all you mentioned.
As I hopefully clearly wrote, I also feel what many call “church” these days is nothing more than gathering of individuals who think it’s all about them.
In my definition what make the USA a “Post Christian” culture is what has changed in the hearts of people. And the “church,” more than it wants to admit, is a reflection of that culture.
BTW, this statement: ”
I don’t buy that there is such a thing as a ‘christian nation’. At least that’s the way I see it from my perch.”
Is a weak shot into the air that adds little to the conversation. Considering the term “Post Christian” has been commonly used for at least two decades (or more) by many, I find it fails in describing anything at all.
So I’ve written my piece you are now free to state what you believe the definition of a “Post Christian” nation and culture is. This way, rather than reading your criticisms of what others think, there will be a fair rebuttal and contribution to the definition.
MLD:
I did notice something in your post:
“…I did the calculation at one time that helped me decide to retire. My last year working, I paid over 60% of my income in taxes – yes, 60%…
Taxes taken from me …(I also had some return benefit like driving on better roadways.)”
We all pay taxes and live in the same nation and while I have done things to minimize taxes, it is simply part of the privileges and obligations of living in the USA.
Decades ago I was working with a Mormon fellow and one evening we were walking to dinner in a major city and as we passed a “homeless” man he pulled out a couple of dollars and gave it to him. No signs, no requests just did it.
I was surprised so I asked him why?
He said, “It’s what I do.”
So what did he testify about being a Mormon?
What makes a nation “Christian” to others? It certainly isn’t the taxes.
First, the Mormon testified nothing about being a Mormon. Many individuals do nice things to relieve their guilt or to get praise from friends. However by your original definition the civic side of “a christian nation” makes sense – we agree as Americans to support the needy through a common collection of funds. My point was you made the claim that we no longer care.
Also my point about the amount of taxes was at 69 yrs old at the time, why keep working if I take home so little. Now we live off our SS and I pay no Fed, state, Medicare or SS taxes.
It’s a good deal for me after working 52 yrs.
MLD
Thank for responding and clarifying!
However, I made no such statement, “My point was you made the claim that we no longer care.”
The statement I made was about, “what is the definition of a “Post Christian” nation.
My answer is in general, as a nation and individuals we have succumbed to being “self interested,” while being “Christian” in life goes beyond politics and the church one attends.
I will retire in a year and a half and these days I work, because I like to have a place to go and contribute to and they pay me to do so. When I “retire” I will do the same (go and contribute) except not receive any funds into my bank account nor at my current place of employment.
The subject of retirement reminds me of the story Jesus told about the man whose “storehouses were full…”
I’m happy for you that retirement has been a good deal.
MLD
I forgot to mention, the Mormon made it very clear giving to others, especially the poor, was part of what it means to be a Mormon and was a part of his life.
MM – where do you see that Christians care less about the needs of others vs past generations of Christians?
I think what we see is that Christians aren’t so much tied to the old Fundamentalist who claimed it was evil to work with civic organizations and they attempted to keep all charities “in house”.
I can give to the local city food bank and am not restricted to giving to a church food bank etc. I can give to a community youth reclamation project and not a church based program.
I also hand out cash to the poor – but I don’t preach while I do it – so I leave no evidence that I do it out of church obligation.
But if you can let me know where you see diminished christian concern, I would appreciate it.
MLD
You are a master of twisting what people write and then implying something else.
“…past generations of Christians?”
This is not worthy of a response.
Oops I guess that was a response, shame on me. 😉
It’s obvious you don’t get it.
May the rest of your day be blessed by those around you.
So, I just got back from a trip in which I met lots of people from the UK. They have as big a beef as those in the US. I’ve come to conclusion that discussing any political issue is a total waste of time. We need to enjoy the life God has given us and pray for those around us.
MM, you need to go back to your original post. You used the term that we are currently post Christian in caring for people. Today being post Christian implies that previous generations handled these activities in a “christian” manner. So where is your beef with me referring to past generations of Christians? I only asked that you provide a couple of examples where Christian Americans do not provide like Christian Americans of previous generations.
I am making the claim that there is no change in christian behavior or activity towards those in need – from inception to this day. But I will restate that the concept that we have ever been a christian nation is false. We have been a nation full of Christians doing American things. Now if we required Americans to be baptized, then we would have been a Christian nation.
It’s been good conversing with you.
“Now if we required Americans to be baptized, then we would have been a Christian nation.”
No we wouldn’t. We’d be a nation with a Christian facade……
🙂
“…..we live off our SS and I pay no Fed, state, Medicare or SS taxes.” how do you do that? I pay medicare out of my S.S., need a med supplement policy, takes about 1/3 of my pension and I pay some Fed tax on my mandatory withdrawal from my IRA…
Linnea @ 4:33: ” I’ve come to conclusion that discussing any political issue is a total waste of time. We need to enjoy the life God has given us and pray for those around us.”
amen – wise words… and take heart in the hope of His promises (which promises we are building our lives on)