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43 Responses

  1. Reuben says:

    Ergo, it was Kay and Lonnie who started the movement. Chuck was the lone nut.

  2. Michael says:

    He did the same thing for Wimber…

  3. Scott says:

    But what if I’m not interested in starting a movement? Is there a video for that? 😉

  4. Nonnie says:

    I hope he can go home in peace. What a tragedy if his family is warring over all the church assets. May God give them all peace and reconciliation.

  5. I’m with Scott.

  6. Wait…does that make Scott the lone nut and me the first follower in the non-movement…uh…movement?

  7. I watched the next video about the YES network. what I found interesting was the HR person said they had 115 employees

    So it made me wonder about the article last week about the layoffs at Focus on the Family. Why the heck did they ever have 1,400 employees. Although they gave people jobs, they must have been very poor stewards.

    I guess that id s the difference between a for profit and a non profit.

  8. Scott says:

    Captain, # 6 I hope not! LOL.

  9. Paige says:

    Like Nonnie, I pray for a peaceful end for Pastor Chuck. Dealing with cancer and the ‘treatments’ is brutal. He’s 88 for heaven’s sake… “Let Thy servant depart in peace” is my prayer…and God bless dear Kay…. the church assets, who cares…. it’s all gonna burn.

  10. ” the church assets, who cares…. it’s all gonna burn.”
    Exactly! Paige tells it like it is.

  11. Posted a lotta links to free ebooks on Amazon.

    Make sure to check the price before buying cause I haven’t checked all these link sin a while, but I believe most of them are still free.

  12. Ricky Bobby says:

    I still think the most effective way to start a Movement is strong coffee and a high fiber breakfast.

  13. Castle Rock says:

    RB, that’s funny no matter who you are!

  14. Reuben says:

    Michael @2, yes he absolutely did.

  15. erunner says:

    #11 Thank you Derek.

  16. No problem. I love free books. I read a bit too much sometimes.

  17. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Movements RB?

    I go with apricot low fat yogurt, works everytime in the morning

  18. Dude says:

    Super storm with wind speeds up to 135-150 mph heading towords Hong Kong.Saying a prayer for those people rhey need it.

  19. Thanks for the info, Dude. Praying.

  20. davidsurfer51 says:

    Smith is a very strong man, he may just beat this thing.

    Hey Rueben,

    I was there from the start. Kay and Lonnie were the spiritual side in a sense while Chuck was the foundational side in that he brought structure and stability to the growing ‘movement.’

    Lonnie was kind of unpredictable on the platform, in that there were times when he stepped off and went out into the crowd. He would lay hands on someone and prophesy over them. Then get back on the platform as if nothing had happened and continue on with his study. You would never ever see that behavior from Chuck.

    Chuck was always very careful and very structured. You could see that he contrasted Lonnie in his stable predictable professionalism at all times.

    The combination was extremely fertile in those early days. The excitement and the momentum grew when healing got added to the mix on Lonnie’s Wednesday nights. As the news caught wind of it all more people started coming.

    I would not call Chuck a ‘lone nut’ but he was a solid original who gave the whole atmosphere a foundation to stand upon. Without his presence sitting on the platform in his turtleneck shirts while Lonnie spoke and his shepherding I don’t think a movement would have resulted. He was the adult.

    With just Lonnie and Kay it would have eventually fizzled out like so many others have.

    Lonnie could not have started the Vineyard by himself. It took the presence of someone like John Wimber in combination with Lonnie to do it one more time.

    Overall it is the presence of the Holy Spirit and the balance of the people involved.

    A potter can not ‘pull’ a pot on the wheel if the clay is not centered. If the clay is not centered it slips all over the place until it eventually flies off the wheel. But when the clay is perfectly centered on the wheel the potter can pull the clay up into a perfect pottery shape. A pot is born…

  21. London says:

    That dancing guy video is on of my favorites.

  22. Ixtlan says:

    The video was absolutely brilliant, one that every church planter should watch. The question is, who was the first guy, and who was the second?

    It sounds like Chuck Smith’s health is waning. Yes he is strong, positive, and tough, but it is still appointed unto men. I thank God we can trust Him will all things, including the end of our days.

    I have a friend who appears to be in his final days and is looking forward to going home. He is strong, positive and tough too. At this stage of his life he cares for nothing but Jesus.

    I was there soon after the tent went up. I was church like I’d never seen it, both in its power and extremes. Watch the video and that should clue you in on Reuben’s choice of words.

  23. I recorded this around 2003 at Oden Fong’s Poeima Chapel in Huntington Beach California. It is a rare worship recording in that Pedro Buford plays his flute during worship. Pedro is no longer there. Oden plays guitar and sings. This was and is typical of the worship at Oden’s.

    A mellow worship that slowly sets the stage for the Lord to manifest His presence in the meeting.

    Oden Fong:

  24. Thanks Ixtlan. Sorry Ruben I hadn’t watched the video and missed where you were coming from. My bad.


  25. brian says:

    There was this show on Iheart radio that had Paul McCartney so I tuned in to see his performance and Miley Cyrus’ act came up. The students I work with love Hannah Montana and that was the character that made Miley Cyrus along with her fathers help. It was really sad to see her just sell herself. I am not a prude and I would never get in the way of anyone making or increasing their brand, that is almost sacrosanct even a sacrament. What is sad is they will run her to ground and she may well wind up burned out and kicked to the curb.

    Then I see another group of young ladies who seem to get the grace given them with talent. Maybe I am a prude, I just dont want to see Miss Cyrus end before she can begin as a person.

    I love this group

  26. Reuben says:


    No worries.

    Your assessment, as one who was there, fits with the countless other stories I have heard. Some are more or less favorable of Lonnie. Nobody disputes Kay’s roll, but few speak of it.

    I contend, and have for a while now, somethibg a bit different. Chuck would never had made it past a blip on the radar without Kay and Lonnie.

    The reasoning is simple. 1) Kay is a woman. 2) Lonnie is gay.

    The result of these two facts are seen every time the hot shots get together and get all reminiscent of the good old days… standing ovations for Chuck, with barely a passing mention of the two who poured their lives Iinto the “movement”.

  27. Reuben,

    You say,

    “I contend, and have for a while now, something a bit different. Chuck would never had made it past a blip on the radar without Kay and Lonnie.”

    Not different, the same symbionic balance of characters on the potters wheel of life. Kay and Lonnie would never had made it past a blip on the radar without Chuck.

    I ran into Lonnie’s brother Stan the other day. During breakfast he told me of some stuff that had happened recently for him. There was a large meeting with a lot of people where Stan spoke and directed the meeting. The Holy spirit fell powerfully upon some of the people and they were ‘slain’ in the Spirit at his meeting.

    As usual when this stuff takes place people have the tendency to look to the person who was up on the platform when it all happens. Now Stan has some open doors that he could walk through, invites and opportunity’s and such, that were not there before that meeting took place.

    I live around the corner from Stan. He has done Monday night meetings in his home for over 15 years. People have always sort of cycled through his home meetings that remained small in attendance over all those years.

    Now, however, it looks as if those years of training by his brother, Lonnie, and his leadership experience are being noticed by others.

    He was a well kept secret that few knew about, but now his time has come to come out. We will be hearing about his progress if the same scenario happens for him that happened for his brother.

    There is a balance of characters on this potters wheel I am willing to guess. And something will surely come of it. Stan Frisbee is not alone in these things, if we look hard enough we just might find a “lone nut” type standing there with him…

    When I read your post Ruben, over time, I realize that you got slighted by some characters that were not supportive of you. And the clay slipped off the wheel.

    I see a lot of greatness in you that the Lord has placed there. You have the smoke of battles on you that few can survive. Your scars and wounds can’t take you out because the Lord has made promises to you that He will fulfill in their season.

    Like a boxer in the ring who refuses to throw in the towel no matter how many times he gets knocked down. You get up and take a stand out of pure strength with nothing around you but you and the Lord. Because He has made promises to you.

    I can hear that masculine voice of the Father speaking, “My Words that go out from My mouth will not return to Me void! They will go forth and accomplish that for which I have sent them!”

    Your time will come, and when it does doors are going to be opened to you and many will know the Lord because of it.

    I believe that I hear Him saying,

    “The first shall be last and the last shall be the first. You will be used in the latter days as I have spoken in days gone by. Vigilance, endurance, persistence. You are mine and no one can ever pluck you out of My hand!”


  28. Solomon Rodriguez says:


    Death will come to us all including Chuck and your revisionist history of the Calvary movement is Rich. Lonnie was a huge influence. The Calvary movement is but a vapor, there always has been true believers and there always will be some flash in the pan movement isnt going to change anything

  29. Reuben says:


    Forgive my inability to respond in an appropriate manner. I am not sure how one is to respond to things like this.

    You bet, things have been spoken to me before. Some of those things were verbatim what you said. So unless you have some sort of inside scoop you are not telling me about, I will try to proceed by giving you the benefit of the doubt.

    I am almost 40. That may be young by some standards, but when words like this were first spoken to me, it was when I was a part of the Oneness Pentecostal movement. I did not have much of a choice in the matter, my father was the pastor, and the associate pastor, who was also a man known to get “Words from the Lord”, spoke a number of big things I would do while I was “yet young”. I pursued those things when I was a teen, and was run out of Vineyard years later as a result.

    Vineyard had a very similar “word” known as the “sons of thunder”. Of course I was destined to things of God there until I asked a pastor to pray for some issues regarding ministry logistics, and I was guilty of a “religious spirit”.

    Calvary Chapel would never attach a “Thus saith the Lord” to a prophesy, but theirs again was the same. I was to pastor and lead people to the Lord. As I am sure you are aware, CC will have nothing to do with me these days.

    So I have to ask the question…

    Hath God truly said?

    I have no doubt that the Lord is in control. His plans can be whatever He wants them to be, and I hope I am compliant to minimize the pain to myself in the process. However, I do not accept the above suggestion, because it has faithfully played out time after time as hogwash.



  30. Thanks for your honesty Reuben!

    No…in the natural I personally know nothing about you what~so~ever. Nor have I ever heard anything about you from anyone ever. I was not aware that CC would have nothing to do with you. In a sense we are in the same boat…Jeff Smith invited me to leave back in the 90’s so I did. I only know you from in here and I like that you never put on any sort of projection, you are you, a good thing.

    I just typed what came to mind this morning. Take it for what it is worth. Happens a lot with me.

    I read this once:
    1 Thessalonians 5:20
    Despise not prophesyings.

    So when it comes I let it flow through. I care not if it is received or rejected, I played my part and that is all that any man can do.

    I been around this stuff for some time, since 67 to be exact. And since this is not my first rodeo your reaction is perfectly fine with me. You are my brother and I love you just as you are.

    I did not say, “Thus saith the Lord.” I said,” I believe that I hear Him…” In true CC style.

    Always by faith, therefore your question of, “Hath God truly said” can only be answered by you and not I. And I receive your answer of “Hogwash.” For as a man thinketh in his heart so shall it be…

    But I would connect the dots coming from unrelated sources, especially if there seems to be a common theme. Just saying.

    Solomon Rodriguez,

    It may very well appear as revisionist from your angle point, but from my side of the fence my perspective was as I have said, I know no other. You may know more then I do back stage. But I do realize that like in the Wizard of OZ things may not always be as they seem.

    One bind man felt the elephants tail and proclaimed that elephants were like hairy snakes. Another blind man felt the side of the elephant and proclaimed elephants were like walls. And yet another blind man felt one of the elephants knees and proclaimed that elephants were like trees. Who was right?

    When you think that you are right, you could be wrong…
    When you think that you are wrong, you could be right…
    Things are never what they at first appear to be.

    Thanks for your perspective. I know we all are a flash in the pan that God does not need to fulfill his plans and purposes. But I read somewhere once:

    Ephesians 2:10
    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Believers come from some of those flash in the pans. I certainly did.

    Pan flasher Dave

  31. Ricky Bobby says:

    “Smith is a very strong man, he may just beat this thing.”

    No he won’t, he’s going to die. In fact, I’ll wager everything I own that Chuck Smith will die.

  32. Ricky Bobby says:

    In fact, I’ll take it a step further, I’ll wager everything that I own that you’ll die, I’ll die and we’ll all die LOL. Guaranteed. How’s that for a prophetic word 😉

  33. brian says:

    My point of view, Lonnie had one of the icky sins him being gay, if he would have had some of the more acceptable sins such as hatred, loathing, cheating, lying, guile, hubris, non forgiveness, beating the living hell out of your kids (oops sorry that is not a sin listed in the bible), etc he would have had a home. The bible does seem to mention something about one “brother” suing another “brother”, but we will ignore that verse God could not have meant that literally like he did Gen 1-3. I mean these people lined up for the fleecing at the tents and community halls where someone like Mrs. Kuhlman and her like would show up for a cash infusion of the spirit. I remember some of those revivals and the shills that lurked outside the “tent”, all the really disabled people were parked on the outskirts of the revival. It makes me puke when I think of it. All the bible blabbering and no real help. I mean Lonnie was a broken vessel needing a savior but well he was shown the door. I mean how many CC pastors struggled with heterosexual issues who were welcomed back into the corporation.

    I mean I am sorry Pastor Smith has cancer, I buried much of my family from that damned disease, begging God late at night for healing, then feeling shame when I actually prayed such a vile evil selfish prayer. Cancer is a horrid enemy, relentless and it shows no mercy, the one sword I found that fights for us the mortal has been science and medical research. But I am to hate that because it gets in the way of our doctrine. The prayers for those family members who died of this disease did get answered, they found comfort and hope. But needing such is vile at best, a real follower of the prince of peace should never need, ever such trinkets. I dont get that but it echoes to my very soul, I should not have needed. I get that I really do, needing is evil, needing anything ever. Some say I am just looking for sympathy which is always evil, but I will aqueous longing for sympathy and hope. It was wrong on my part to seek such tripe.

    I dont just post this for effect and never have I truly dont understand, we are to need Jesus but to never need Him, we are to lean on Him but never lean on his church. The last part I get I will never ever ever lean on “His Church”. That part I get in spades.

  34. What a fraud – another morally blind man running around pitting science against Christianity – when there is absolutely no division at all.

  35. Nonnie says:

    MLD, you have lost me. Who/what are you talking about?

  36. Bob Sweat says:

    MLD is still in shock over the Dodgers winning their division. We need to forgive his periodic lapses. 😉

  37. Nonnie says:

    Guitar man, that was a beautiful article. Thank you!

  38. Ixtlan says:

    “Hath God truly said”?

    That is a question that I have asked myself time and time again. And of course, there are those who take the clip of Hannegraff asking that question during an interview and proclaim that is the same question Satan asked Eve. It is another form of “touch not the Lord’s anointed”. I don’t recall reading where it is a sin to ask a question.

    However, I think it is an important question. Why is it that every young man who has a zeal, whether it be for God, for leadership, for ministry, or it could be nothing more than self fulfillment, has the vision of “standing before thousands of young people” preaching the gospel? First of all, there are only so many crowds of “thousands of young people” to go around. Most real ministry is face to face ,flesh to flesh, something that the multi-site ideal misses the mark in. I’m afraid that many times those type of prophecies are really self serving to the leaders who speak them. When they come in abundance and are frequently uttered, they are better than any bong hit I ever encountered, and it kept us coming back for more.

  39. Nonnie says:

    “Most real ministry is face to face ,flesh to flesh, something that the multi-site ideal misses the mark in.” I could not agree more!!
    See my praise report on the prayer and praise link. This is what the gospel is all about…. face to face, day in and day out, getting “down and dirty” loving people in His name.

  40. Reuben says:


    Thanks for the ballance. I agree. In all my “prophetic” cases, it was precisely that. Of course the anointing lifted when I no longer fit the bill…

  41. Lutheran says:


    That must be quite a journey you’ve come through…from Oneness Pentecostal to Anglican!

    I once saw Greg Boyd at a debate. Greg was raised in the Oneness Pentecostal church. He wrote a book about it. I overheard him talking with a couple of other OPs privately after the debate. From what I could tell, OPs are very, very legalistic.

  42. brian says:

    lol MLD I feel the love. Oh and yes there is.

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