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151 Responses

  1. Steve Wright says:

    If you were a Christian in the mid 1960s in Alabama, especially a black Christian, how would you pray for your governor, George Wallace?

    If you were a Christian in any of the other states, how would you pray for him?

  2. Michael says:

    I taught on this last week.

    “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
    (1 Timothy 2:1–4 ESV)

    We will begin having corporate prayer before the message for our leaders.
    It will be pretty generic to start because my church despises the president…and they are doing this in obedience to the Lords will given in Scripture.

  3. Rob Murphy says:

    Do you think that the prayer itself leads to the quiet and peaceful life or is it that the Lord answers supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings and gives to the people a quiet and peaceful life?
    Seems like we often delete everything before ‘thanksgivings’ when “our” viewpoint is represented in office. Which is odd because it can be seen that 3/4 prayer types would be advocacy for a change in ‘our’ circumstance as the ones praying.
    I am guilty of 75% praying for our leaders because the only thing I can think to be thankful for is these clowns won’t be in charge forever. I’m thankful there’s a King because this democratic republic is nasty.

  4. “If you were a Christian in the mid 1960s in Alabama, especially a black Christian, how would you pray for your governor, George Wallace?”

    “May (his) term end quickly and (his) successor put (him) to shame.
    May (his) critics speak clearly, heard soundly, and move the masses and all the people get relief.”

    This generic prayer for/against all politicians is brought to you by those who regularly pray for those in office, that their stay be short and sweet. 😉

  5. Steve Wright says:

    This week, thanks to a couple questions in my son’s homework, I decided to read from start to finish the entirety of Dr. King’s, “Letter from Birmingham Jail”

    What prompted me to do so is the recognition that I was unaware of (or had certainly forgotten over the decades since my school days) that he wrote this letter because of the criticism from other Christian leaders. It is really a letter to them – not so much an “open letter” per se.

    That gave me pause, and so off to the internet I went.

    Here it is, for any others so interested.

  6. Steve Wright says:

    (All that follows from that letter of Dr. King’s written in 1963)

    An unjust law is a code that a numerical or power majority group compels a minority group to obey but does not make binding on itself.

    Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

    Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

    . More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will. We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people. Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be co workers with God, and without this hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation.

    I have tried to stand between these two forces, saying that we need emulate neither the “do nothingism” of the complacent nor the hatred and despair of the black nationalist. For there is the more excellent way of love and nonviolent protest. I am grateful to God that, through the influence of the Negro church, the way of nonviolence became an integral part of our struggle. If this philosophy had not emerged, by now many streets of the South would, I am convinced, be flowing with blood. And I am further convinced that if our white brothers dismiss as “rabble rousers” and “outside agitators” those of us who employ nonviolent direct action, and if they refuse to support our nonviolent efforts, millions of Negroes will, out of frustration and despair, seek solace and security in black nationalist ideologies–a development that would inevitably lead to a frightening racial nightmare.

    I must honestly reiterate that I have been disappointed with the church. I do not say this as one of those negative critics who can always find something wrong with the church. I say this as a minister of the gospel, who loves the church; who was nurtured in its bosom; who has been sustained by its spiritual blessings and who will remain true to it as long as the cord of life shall lengthen.

    In the midst of a mighty struggle to rid our nation of racial and economic injustice, I have heard many ministers say: “Those are social issues, with which the gospel has no real concern.” And I have watched many churches commit themselves to a completely other worldly religion which makes a strange, un-Biblical distinction between body and soul, between the sacred and the secular.

    There was a time when the church was very powerful–in the time when the early Christians rejoiced at being deemed worthy to suffer for what they believed. In those days the church was not merely a thermometer that recorded the ideas and principles of popular opinion; it was a thermostat that transformed the mores of society

    If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.

  7. Michael says:

    and your application to today would be?

  8. I think every generation has a disappointment in the church of it’s day. /we hold expectations that (1) are not realistic and (2) were never meant to be a part of church life.

    We do the same with the political system and probably every feature of our culture. Every generation thinks their generation is going to hell in a hand basket.

    The church that King idolizes, in his mind, is also the church that produced the KKK.

  9. Steve Wright says:

    The closing of Crater Lake wasn’t at least a little bit of an eye-opener for you?

    But I will head off at the pass anyone who thinks this is a Republican/Democrat comment. It’s not.

    I noticed Dr. King’s letter did not mention either political party by name. He does mention a local election where he points out that while the one candidate is clearly better than the other the problem is they BOTH are wrong – just to differing degrees.

    In fact, there is a governor election in Virginia next week. The Democrat (Terry McCaulliffe of all people) had a huge poll lead but has been fading fast, likely due to Obamacare. Republican establishment types are hoping for an upset to “send a message” to the Dems up for reelection in 2014 – but at the same time these establishment Republicans are moaning about a libertarian in the race who might play the spoiler.

    I am rooting for just that personally. I hope the libertarian takes 10% and gives the election to McCaulliffe (and Hillary by proxy) – so that the wake-up call will go to everyone in the Republican party that they can either differentiate themselves or resign themselves to perpetual defeat at the hands of freedom-loving 3rd parties and expensive, tough primary battles amongst their own.

  10. Politically I look at it this way – things will be screwed up no matter who is in office. So, I would just as soon have the other guy in office so I can tell people “look, your guy is a screw up.” – because if my guy were in office, then I would have to put up with “look, your guy is a screw up.” 🙂

  11. Michael says:


    In the interest of peace, I’ll pass on this one.
    I will only say that I’m incredulous that Kings crusade for racial equality would be compared to current political shenanigans.

  12. Steve Wright says:

    That’s OK, Michael – since of course I am not drawing a direct comparison, I have no desire to argue for one. You’ve made your opinion known clearly, but this is Open Blogging so I’m sharing my “hack” thoughts that are on my heart.

    Right/wrong, truth/lies, they are every generation’s fight. The issues change, but the struggle against tyranny by evil leaders remains.

    And the opposition from church leaders remains strong. King’s points above have very real relevance, even if given in a different context.

    We now have gone beyond simple partisan principle differences and burueacratic incompetence to learn of deliberate lies and abuses of power, targeted IRS attacks and on and on. Christians losing their rights in their own country, and their lives in foreign countries.

    History will wonder how our generation could fill facebook with pictures and lauding of our children, and yet apparently care very little about the future those children will inherit.

    And just as the predictions made a few years ago by some of us (who certainly are not prophets but just have common economic sense) are now coming to pass, to the hurt of millions and millions of Americans (and ultimately the entire nation as our economy, debt and so much more continue to spiral downward, Christians forced out of work for their beliefs, pedophilia is no longer deemed a mental disorder, but Christians who believe in the 2nd Coming may be dangerous to the state)

    In a few years I fear we will reap even more of what we have sown.

    I think King’s point about trying to bridge a gap through peaceful opposition between apathy of those whose ox is not personally gored (yet) and those who were so fed up they wanted to use violence is quite appropriate. These days it seems they are isolated lone gunmen – but I fear a future when that is not the case. When all those pithy bumper stickers “You can have my gun when you pry it out of dead hands” actually come to pass.

    And when the apathetic ones wake up and say “What the hell happened”

    Enjoy the weekend.

  13. Michael says:

    I’ll throw something out here.
    I voted for Obama…because I believe in universal health care, immigration reform, and a safety net for the least of these.
    Republicans had made it clear they opposed all of the above and I couldn’t and wouldn’t vote for them according to conscience.
    My guess is that those who voted for him and re-elected him had the same values in mind.
    That was a majority of our country…a thin majority, but the result was what the system provided.
    While Obama has failed to execute on any of the above, those remain values that are important to me.
    The debacle that of the ACA and the total lack of immigration reform won’t change my vote, because the Republicans only address the issues closest to my heart with great rancor.
    As a Christian I believe that caring for the sick, the poor, and the stranger among us trump all other issues when we participate in the political realm.
    Other Christians obviously disagree…or disagree that this is the way to exercise those ideals.
    How do we find unity in this area…especially when dialog is almost impossible?

  14. Michael says:


    History will show that this country has always used power to control dissent.
    I’m not sure that today is much different than when presidents used Hoovers FBI to spy and and vilify people…including King.
    It’s always been wrong.

  15. Ricky Bobby says:

    Steve CC pastor said, “History will wonder how our generation could fill facebook with pictures and lauding of our children, and yet apparently care very little about the future those children will inherit.”

    Steve, you seem very concerned about the “kids” and you seem to express righteous indignation about “the kids”…yes, what will the kids inherit…in Calvary Chapel?

    Why are you not so righteously indignant and why don’t you speak out in public about child abuse in Calvary Chapel?

  16. I am impressed by today’s attempts to bait. But so far only a nibble and a couple of re-baits from the other side.

    Let’s see how shall I respond? Ok I will teach Romans 1 tonight. That will bait everyone. But it will be alwright.

  17. erunner says:

    Have spent the week at the hospital with Gunilla’s family as she lays in ICU unable to breathe on her own and her body ravaged with cancer. Medication wears off at times and she opens her eyes and as she recognizes family is desperate to communicate but is unable as she is intubated. It seems today for the first time her husband is seeing he won’t be able to have her for months to come. The plan is to have her come home to live her days out with hospice care. Their adult kids are remarkable but the strain is clear. For those of you who visit and comfort families in similar situations you are godsends. Please hold the family up in prayer if you can remember to.

  18. Michael says:


    Blessings on you…that is the most difficult ministry of all.

  19. Anne Kohut says:

    I would like to encourage everyone to please donate to your local food banks as often and much as you can. Not only are folks getting cuts in SNAP, but Meals on Wheels and food banks who get some funds to supplement donations have been cut as well.

  20. Ricky Bobby says:

    Anne, yes and will do.

    Got a call from our local Meals on Wheels. They are doing a big fundraiser. Our local food bank is getting prepared as well.

    I hope some of the rich churches out there can siphon a little money away from their “important” radio shows, concerts, conferences, big buildings, pastor salaries and “ministry” trip/vacations to actually help some folks in a tangible manner…you know, like that guy Jesus said to do.

    Nah, their version of “ministry” is more important, silly me.

  21. RB,
    What, a materialist like you doesn’t want to believe in the survival of the fittest? You disappoint me.

  22. Glen says:

    I’m watching a bluegrass festival on RFD-TV right now and enjoying thumb and finger picking style guitar by Shane Adkins. It seems to me that old guys and bluegrass musicians know how to play more than three boring chords. On the other hand, most young contemporary Christian “singers” do the three chords and that’s it. I guess that’s why I enjoy bluegrass gospel music and not most CCM. What say you, G and Josh?

  23. Jim says:

    “As a Christian I believe that caring for the sick, the poor, and the stranger among us trump all other issues when we participate in the political realm.
    Other Christians obviously disagree…or disagree that this is the way to exercise those ideals.
    How do we find unity in this area…especially when dialog is almost impossible?”

    I think that liberals need to be honest if we are to have an honest conversation. Do you believe in constitutionally enumerated powers or not? I wish someone would just say, “that’s and antiquated document that our leaders should no longer swear to uphold, defend and protect. It’s meaningless.”

    It is perfectly honest for me to say that the fed govt has no business doing the Church’s job in caring for the poor, sick, and stranger among us. It is perfectly honest for me to say that my mother’s ancestors did not found a union of states with a central govt that would meddle in such matters. It is perfectly honest for me to say that my father’s father immigrated to a country that did not meddle in these matters, nor was my father born into one, nor was I born in a welfare state.

    I have the same opinion of establishment republicans.

    The goal posts are moved annually and more rapidly, and it’s done in a dishonest and illegal manner.

    I’d say that unity and dishonesty are antithetical, so let’s fess up and talk.

  24. Michael says:


    My guess would be that most citizens, whether liberal or conservative…have very little experience or education in constitutional matters.
    They don’t understand the foundational basis for your argument, so all that is understood are the ramifications.
    I don’t think it’s a matter of dishonesty, but of ignorance.
    I still would believe more in federal responsibility more than you would, but perhaps be better informed.
    In my opinion, we would all benefit from a basic course in civics,
    Having said all that in regard to your second point, no one in this country is going to trust the church to do anything…it’s too fractured for believers and who would care for the pagans?
    Are you opposed to SSI and medicare?

  25. Ricky Bobby says:

    Well, that’s the thing MLD. I’m neither orthodox Christian* nor Atheist.

  26. Steve Wright says:

    I agree with you, Jim. Honesty is a nice thing, And rare.

    For example, the reason for this present food stamp “cut” is in fact this is exactly how President Obama and the Democrat House and Senate passed the legislation that provided for it – as part of the so-called Stimulus Bill. They told the American people this was a temporary boost, in extremely difficult times, to help give the most needy a little more. By design Nov 1st 2013 was the day this temporary boost would end.

    How the ending of a temporary program is a “CUT” is beyond me but I have ceased trying to figure out poli-speak when it comes to the English language.

    Nothing to do with budgets, conservatives, libertarians, government shutdowns and so forth. 100% Democrat.

    Was it their intention to get people hooked on the extra money, to get them to think they can’t possibly survive without it? Did they make the effort to include a notice from time to time to warn the American people “this is temporary” Was this just done out of the goodness of their hearts (with other people’s money).

    I don’t know how anyone can look at a graph of current foodstamp usage (both in dollars and people served) and conclude that somehow we are on the right path. It sure ain’t no “safety net” when 1 out of 7 people are beneficiaries (more poli-speak)

    And yet, is anyone talking about a solution or is the solution just to tax people more, borrow more from China, siphon a bunch through the burueacracy and give pennies on the dollar to millions of people just enough to appreciate but never enough to actually lift them up out of their plight.

    But to say such things just means you don’t care about the poor in today’s poli-speak – even if one personally gives away lots of money to the poor in their lifetime (after being taxed to the eyeballs).

    Someone who cares about the poor is really the person who wants to reform this unhealthy system. Not keep people addicted to it, while adding more people to the beast every month.

  27. Gary says:

    Michael #13,
    Where in scripture does it say to pawn off the ministry of giving to the poor onto the government? God has given that mandate and ministry to His followers. The bible was written to Christians, not government workers. It is incumbent upon the church to give to the poor, and minister his love and grace along side that.

    Don’t tell me that churches have fallen down or abdicated on this. Of course many have. Maybe most. But certainly not all. It is not the government’s job to do Christ’s work. The reason government got involved in giving to the poor was to get votes. Same reason they are dissolving the border. it’s all about power and you fell for it.

    The only thing the government does well is a strong military and that only because up until now no private company could produce such a vast product.

    It looks like you are a socialist. Are you?

  28. Steve Wright says:

    Whenever anyone talks about the church “failing” to provide they never mention how highly taxed Christians are today in order to support the military and welfare state of the USA – how high inflation has hit many areas thanks largely to government intervention (i.e. healthcare, college tuition, food and milk) and thus how little people have left to even save, much less give away, today than they used to in the past.

    Nor do they mention that many on the left equate the taxes they pay on their wealth as the same as giving to their churches (or private charity) – see Joe Biden for one example. So they rob their churches and charities by withholding, then BLAME the same groups for not stepping up to the plate for the American people.

    Remember that video I facebook’d about a Catholic Charity doing great work for the American people (including the pagans) being fined out of existence if Obamacare has its way.

    And to whatever degree the church “failed” throughout this nation’s history, they still were doing a whole lot better job than when the federal government got it’s camel nose under the tent.

  29. Michael says:


    I think that “socialist” and “capitalist” are too simplistic of terms to be used with any accuracy at this time.
    I don’t think either fit the current economic or political landscape.
    Most churches are small…and in this economy they are struggling simply to care for their own.
    I don’t think there are any simple answers to anything being discussed here, nor do I think that most of us have enough information to even make good decisions.
    I would challenge your views on the border and only because I do have some amount of expertise on that subject.

  30. Jim says:


    There is no justification under the constitution for SS or medicare. It’s a really short document. I think we all should read it often.

    Having said that, the individual states have the authority to provide social safety nets, should their individual constitutions and citizens allow for them. I have zero problem with that.

  31. Michael says:

    So, at this juncture what would you do with the millions of people dependent on both?

  32. Glen,
    I’ve never been a 3 chord player unless the song truly demands it.
    Transitional and partial chords give movement to a song as long as they don’t distract from the singer. Also, it really depends on the arrangement as to how to craft the song. Ofttimes I’m covering acoustic rhythm or using my guitar synth to lend texture so the chords are always including walking bass lines or suspensions and resolutions.

    Americana & bluegrass have a sparse clarity. I think of Mumford and Sons and The Lumineers as truly refreshing and we’ve got T-Bone Burnett and the likes of Patty Griffith to enjoy.

  33. Jim says:


    If we ever choose to return to being a constitutional republic, change would have to be made gradually. One reason I get so pissed when I see both parties get away with what they can while ignoring our founding principles is related to your question. It is obvious that the minds behind our current policies simply created a series of ponzi schemes that are unsustainable. Millions will feel some serious pain, one way or another.

  34. brian says:

    What, a materialist like you doesn’t want to believe in the survival of the fittest? ”

    That is survival of the fittest from the standpoint of a species not individuals. Altruism and empathy are very powerful traits to display within social animals. Many species display these traits. That is how I read it from the materialist pov, not saying this is my pov and this is a very simplistic rendition.

  35. brian says:

    There is another way, unleash the power of the human imagination and allow them to explore all the possible ways to provide for our nation. We are all in our best life now and we need to just reach our God potential and

    ug ere cough

    Man I hate when my inner Olsteen manifests itself.

  36. brian says:

    I have been following the Vision Forum and the Dominionist groups sort of connected with VF type philosophy / Faith. I was sorry to hear that Mr. Phillips had to resign, more sorry for his wife and family and the other women involved but I dont wish catastrophe on anyone.

  37. Steve Wright says:

    So, at this juncture what would you do with the millions of people dependent on both?
    Rule of holes. When in one, stop digging. Don’t add millions MORE to the dependent status.

    Then, especially since the wealthy have become even more so under Obama than Bush, with no end in sight, we initiate some form of my wealth tax idea to pay for the promises to those depending upon them, while ending the promises to new generations (and reducing their tax burden at the same time)

    Jim is right, “millions will feel some serious pain, one way or another” – but the rich who in the unholy alliance of government, media, lobbyists, Wall St, and Big Corp/Big Millitary have made the most, pay the most.

    Of course, that won’t happen until almost every sitting member in Congress is defeated, rather than incumbents being relelected year after year.

    I don’t think there is a chance of defeating Hillary Clinton in 2016 – unless the collapse happens a lot sooner than even I expect.

    Back to my prayer question – the Scripture cited earlier says that the focus of our prayers is basically so the government will get out of our lives – leave us alone so we can live a Godly life to the Lord. Nothing in that Scripture about praying the government take the Church’s role.

  38. brian says:

    “especially since the wealthy have become even more so under Obama than Bush, with no end in sight, ” Is this not God ordained and a very good thing, nothing should be done to keep the rich from being richer and gaining more political power so they can even get richer. That is the american nightmar um dream.

  39. Steve Wright says:

    God did not ordain crony capitalism.

  40. filbertz says:

    nor did God ordain ‘regular’ capitalism…or any other economic ‘system.’ To argue otherwise is unwise.

  41. filbertz says:

    I enjoyed a birthday meal with my buddy Steve Hopkins tonight. Had a grand time celebrating his big day.

  42. Steve Wright says:

    nor did God ordain ‘regular’ capitalism…or any other economic ‘system.’ To argue otherwise is unwise.
    Nobody is arguing for a God ordained economic “system” but God has plenty of business principles in the word that America would do just fine if we modeled – yet our leaders violate them constantly.

    We also have a Declaration and a Constitution that speak to liberty – an idea God is not exactly silent on either. The former justifies the existence of the latter document, the latter which is to govern our leaders – yet our leaders violate it constantly as well.

    Just because God does not ordain any sort of child education outside of the home, does not mean we are not served well to support mandatory education of all our youth, right?

  43. Gary says:

    I like freedom. Capitalism is a good vehicle for that. Corporate greed is evil but govt greed is worse cuz they have a LOT more power.

    No, filbertz but God did ordain government. Ours is the least intrusive (so far.) How would it be if there was no government at all like before the flood. All they did all day was to sin and forge iron.

  44. filbertz says:

    so, Steve, you agree with me. 😉 Gary, my comment regarded economic systems, not govt.

  45. brian says:

    “All they did all day was to sin and forge iron.” the flood happened around 1300 BC?

  46. Glen says:

    G – thanks for your comment. I’m not a musician so I think I kind of understood what you were saying;-) I hadn’t heard of the folks you mentioned, so I looked them up on YouTube.
    Looks interesting. Have you ever watched Marty Stuart and the Fabulous Superlatives. I love watching Kenny Vaughan playing………also Jimmy Capps ………..

  47. Steve Wright says:

    Props to Michael for allowing threads like these.

    Not a lot of bloggers would….


  48. Glen,
    Ill I’ll check them out, thanks!

  49. Glen says:

    brian, you are in rare form tonight. I had lunch with one of the people on your list about 20 years ago. I was visiting California for a school reunion and dropped in to see the folks I had worked with 20 or so years before that. He happened to be there that day and invited me to go to lunch with him and a couple of the other guys there. It was a Mexican restaurant. He was/is friendly, gracious, enthusiastic – just an overall nice guy. Also an excellent tipper as you shouldn’t leave a tract unless the tip is 20 % or more. I could go on, but won’t.

  50. I read it in the Bible. If you are poor, the biblical thing to do is to sit outside the temple and beg. When people pass by, they may or may not give you money.

    Can we improve on what the bible says?

  51. brian says:

    “Can we improve on what the bible says?”

    Short answer Yes

  52. brian says:

    Longer answer not everything the bible says but what it says about some issues that it is just reporting historic events such as how Lot dealt with his daughters etc. Yes we can improve on that. In areas of theology or where God speaks I dont think we can improve on perfection. If that makes any sense.

  53. LOL, I was kidding about begging in front of the temple.

    There is no “biblical christian” response / solution to what has increasingly free loading society. I know many need the assistance but I an sure that the majority are people are those who have figured out the system and those who could go back to work, but the government pays them more to stay off work.

    Perhaps the “christian” response is to teach self reliance and work ethic and charity where needed.

  54. brian says:

    Jim and Pastor Steve had made me have to think, I hate that :). I am a very liberal person politically and theologically. I am rather prudish in a personal sense more out of experience with situations I observed and had to live through. I got rid of tv because I got tired of sexualization of almost everything, people being crudely used on most “reality” tv shows, and the constant consumerism. I miss RFDtV and the nature videos with praise music and Bible verses. The internet has much of this, I cant say I even miss tv or network shows of any kind. I do have netflix so Im not totally independent yet. I watch Law and Order, that was my moms favorite show and she got me a bit hooked on it.

    TV / network / “cable” news is just awful and skewed. Some of the online news sources seem really good, others not so much. I try to get several sources from all perspectives before I form an opinion. I do have a confession I use to love the religious channels even TBN, daystar, and NRB. I liked the singing, some of the sermons, the hokie movies, I wish life was that simple and contrived at times. When you only sleep say 2-3 hours a day on a good day there is lots of time to kill. I have actually gone for over a week with no real sleep back in the day. I use to spend it in prayer and scripture reading but I just cant do the prayer thing as much. I do try.

    I took up bike riding and put in say 20+ miles a day when I can. That is not much in the biking community but for someone with arthritis, three blown disks and several other issues that is a lot. I got by with eating an apple today and try to limit my food intake to help lower my weight. Just dont feel like eating at times. I do take supplements for vitamins and I dont do that all the time. It was sort of a fasting type of day, but I did not do much praying, but I did pray for Mr. Phillips because he is so far away from my perspective in almost everything I figured, it seemed like what one should do. Its to easy to slime and I slime way to much in my opinion.

    You know deep down I just want everyone to find peace and reconciliation here or in the afterlife. Sort of a dumb goal but what can I say.

  55. brian says:

    “Perhaps the “christian” response is to teach self reliance and work ethic and charity where needed”

    I can agree with that. I wish I could raise more money to help. I love to help it makes me happy and it really is often the only thing one can do just to hold back the chaoss. Have a nice evening MLD God be with you and your family.

  56. Jim says:

    MLD said, “Perhaps the “christian” response is to teach self reliance and work ethic and charity where needed.”

    I think this is the exact drum I was beating here a month ago.

  57. Glen says:

    Is that maybe what we see in the book of Ruth, with the poor gleaning the fields to receive their “aid”?

  58. Steve Wright says:

    Look at this map.

    It takes someone of strong moral character to say they will clean bathrooms or stock shelves for minimum wage (that they then will pay payroll taxes on) – versus stay home and receive this level of benefits.

  59. brian says:

    “It takes someone of strong moral character to say they will clean bathrooms or stock shelves for minimum wage (that they then will pay payroll taxes on) – versus stay home and receive this level of benefits.”

    Been there done that for years, it felt good to earn a wage. The map you posted was interesting, I dont make what some of them make, but I loath asking for help, ever for any reason for even a second. I am an island, well im not but I sometimes think I should be. As for Moral character I am still trying to convince myself that I am even a human being. Never quite got that part of the good news but it is what it is.

  60. Would any of you hate me, if me and the wife packed up and moved to Hawaii to collect the $60K in welfare being offered. 🙂

  61. brian says:

    “Would any of you hate me, if me and the wife packed up and moved to Hawaii to collect the $60K in welfare being”

    I have never been able to reach the spiritual level of hating people, I understand that makes me a spiritual scum as we should be able to loath spiritual disagreements with the love of Jesus. I never understood that aspect of the faith. I count that as a spiritual failing on my part. I get that. The one determination, income, revenue, cash etc. As it should be the revenue stream is a holy beacon. Of course that is nonsense and utter claptrap.

  62. Linnea says:

    Not wanting to jump into the fray yesterday, and waking up way too early this morning, I’ll offer this gem… make of it what you will!

  63. PP Vet says:

    That’s a nice list, L. I think the world’s worst people are the ones who lurk at a site like this but never comment. Like looking over the fence at the nudist colony.

  64. Jim says:

    I happen to be clothed.

  65. Solomon Rodriguez says:


    Why don’t you be an example and stop taking tax breaks for your Church and lessen the governments burden. Where in scripture does it tell the church to accept handouts from the government? You blow hot air about people not getting aid from government but your church accepts tax breaks, hypocrite!

  66. London says:

    I could never be a member at Steve’s church. That much is clear.

  67. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Where in scripture did Jesus say the Church has a right to mandate what the government does with its taxes? In fact Jesus saidito give caeser what is caesers

  68. Gary says:

    MLD #53,
    You said it much better than I did. That’s what I was thinking. So- yeah, what you said.

  69. Gary says:

    After reading the rest of the posts it looks like you’re the man of the hour. Maybe you should update your icon. 😉

  70. filbertz says:

    I can’t help but think many Christians search the scripture to find support for their own political convictions instead of finding evidence there of what their convictions should be.

  71. Gary says:

    The definition of sy-co-path (don’t know how to spell psycopath) and the lists explain a lot. I think I fall on the – list. It does make me wonder about someone close to me. I don’t know if I should be scared but it’s making me think.

  72. Gary says:

    That’s just human nature. But we are getting varied opinions here. I’m getting an education.

  73. Sick-n-Hungry says:

    In our home, one of us is ill and one is unemployed due to company after company cutting back in a bad economy. From a six figure income to welfare. It’s a hard fall. Lost it all and had a good attitude about it, till now.

    “I would like to encourage everyone to please donate to your local food banks as often and much as you can. Not only are folks getting cuts in SNAP, but Meals on Wheels and food banks who get some funds to supplement donations have been cut as well.” — Anne Kohut

    Thank you, Anne! I will be using the food bank for the first time this coming week.

    “How the ending of a temporary program is a “CUT” is beyond me …” — Wright

    To feed a family, we received $600 in SNAP per month. Now that the “temporary program” is over, we get $90 per month to feed the family that includes two sons with voracious appetites in their growing years. When the food dwindles, so does their capacity to study … your future contributors to society at risk.

    “I hope some of the rich churches out there can siphon a little money away from their “important” radio shows, concerts, conferences, big buildings, pastor salaries and “ministry” trip/vacations to actually help some folks in a tangible manner…you know, like that guy Jesus said to do.” — Ricky Bobby

    I agree. Our old CC’s had policies of not helping the poor. There was a disdain for those who dared to walk in and ask for help. We are currently in a church (non-CC) that actually has a huge amount of money they put aside for helping those in need, regardless of the reasons. They used to see people who had mental health issues and needed a hand. Then they started seeing lots of wealthy people who needed some help in figuring out how to change their lifestyle from living off millions to living on less than a six figures. It took time to sell the houses, cars, change expectations, etc… You can’t change overnight. But now they see lots of people like us: no overspending, conservative home and cars, can’t sell the house in this market; but illness and continual underemployment has depleted everything once saved, including retirement. They used to have $6,000 set aside for each family that came for help, to be doled out when the need was desperate. They have since raised that amount, not to create dependency, but because they actually see the people’s bills and know the desperate situation many of us are in. They don’t go by statistics, but by the facts in front of their face.

    What I love about this church is that they set the example and the people followed. Many individuals are giving sacrificially to help people like us not become homeless, which now is a month to month proposition. Under the bridge is our next move. We cannot lower our bills any further, having taken our family from an average home and squished them into a one bedroom apartment in walking distance of school and grocery store so we don’t have to depend on a car.

    I want to work. I’ve scrubbed toilets before, I can certainly do it again. But my healthcare was cut by Obama. Now, I don’t have access to docs to renew my medication that helps me to function.

    My spouse has been with large corporations who had to cut back. At first, 5 years ago, they began cutting salaries, then they cut divisions. Each time you trade jobs you are last hired and first fired for the next round of cuts at the next company. Before you know it, no one wants to hire you because you’ve changed jobs too often. It’s brutal! Working at Home Depot, or whatever, is not beneath us, it just simply won’t pay the rent, food, electricity, and soap. We need some minimal healthcare and a good enough job.

    We’re hungry.

  74. Sick-n-Hungry says:

    BTW, did you know you can’t buy toilet paper with SNAP? Nor soap. Since unemployment doesn’t actually cover the cheap rent we have, I don’t see how there is any dependency created.

    Each month we can’t get health care or jobs, we can’t buy shampoo, laundry soap, gas, or fix the car.

    Remember, we handled our finances conservatively over the years, purchasing less house and cars, not getting the latest electronics or taking fancy vacations. We lived simply and cooked from scratch. But all the money saved was used to float us up till recently, when every last penny has been used.

    Many people like us have hit the tipping point where we begin to look like homeless people while we are still in a shelter. Can’t cut your hair for an interview. Get the picture? If I weren’t in this myself, I wouldn’t believe it.

  75. Michael says:


    God bless you for your honesty and willingness to share your reality…which is the reality of many right now.
    I can relate to your husbands job search struggle way too well…

  76. Sick-n-Hungry says:

    Thanks, Michael!

    This past month was when our unemployment & SNAP were both drastically reduced, while simultaneously cutting my heath care (Medicaid) and my ability to renew my prescription. This is the tipping point and we’re on a slide to under the bridge. The housing shelters in a 25 mile radius are on a 6 month wait list.

    Btw, my husband is very good at what he does. Many former bosses, co-workers and clients recommend him highly, it’s just that HR continues to boot out his resume due to the computer reading too many jobs changes, even with the hiring manager going to bat for him.

    How does one take a teenager out of school? How do you tell him he can’t continue at the prestigious school where he’s been scholarshiped because you’re now homeless and can’t get him there?

    Even with a real safety net provided by the government, we’d still need help. We still need a better economy with careers, not just underemployment. I realize now that even with a very giving church, that is not enough either. We need both.

    Now, there is not a single more relevant important issue in politics than to fix the economy. Without that I can’t help anyone else and only contribute traumatized young people into society as a drain, since their education could be interrupted, and their brain growth delayed due to nutrition needs. And then we will be a drain on society as well, as sick old people with no retirement.

  77. Sick-n-Hungry says:

    While I’m venting I’ll add one more thing. I’m not in church today because one car is out of gas and the other is broken.

    If you just have one set of problems, like the inability to get cleaned up for an interview, somehow you rumage up some help. But when you have several problems added to that like: inability to get the car running, gassed up along with breakfast so you can think for an interview, well, then you just become a drain on someone else’s resources. They can’t handle their bills and yours, too.

    Sorry for the vent. I’ve never seen this side of life before and it’s a real eye opener.

    “Though He slay me, yet will I praise Him!”

  78. Michael says:


    I wish I had something more to to offer than just prayers, but I’m fighting the same job market.
    Our ages don’t help, either.
    I get a lot of nasty email telling me to “get a job”…and I’d love to.
    You have spoken eloquently…I hope that you’re heard both here and in heaven.

  79. Scott says:

    “But my healthcare was cut by Obama.”

    Wow, I’m sorry to hear that.

  80. Nonnie says:

    Sick and Hungry, I am praying for you and your family tonight. I know what it is like to not have groceries in the house and no gas in the car. There were a few times I would clean out our closets and have an impromptu “garage sale” to make $15 or $20 so my husband could go to work and we could get a few groceries. I understand and I am praying for you and yours. May God provide for and bless you as you trust in Him.

  81. Sick-n-Hungry says:

    Thanks, Scott!

    Thanks, Michael. No one can fix my situation. We, like you, simply need jobs. I appreciate the ear, the chance to have a voice.

    Thanks for any prayers. God has provided for us in many ways and we are so thankful. He has not been silent recently, but He has not chosen to remove the blocks that keep the jobs at bay, for some reason. I don’t understand and it does give my faith a stress test. But I have nothing else except Jesus. If my poverty tries to steal that from me, then I will truly be poor.

  82. Sick-n-Hungry says:

    Thanks, Nonnie! We did garage sales for gas before, too. There’s just nothing left to sell that wouldn’t be cutting into what we use regularly, now.

    I’m sharing this, not only to vent, but to highlight the predicament many middle class people are in right now with last months slash and burn cuts. We had unemployment and SNAP once before the 2008 temporary aid supposedly bumped up the money people received. It was far more than what we are getting to day.

  83. Scott says:

    Sick-n-Hungry, I know that platitudes are meaningless. However, I can assure you from personal experience that God has not, nor will he ever forsake you and your family.

    How and when his provision is woven into your situation I do not know. But, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt he will provide.

  84. Nonnie says:

    Praying for you and yours S and H. May the Lord delight you as He provides for you in ways you could never imagine. Praying for others here who are struggling financially and physically. Lord, we know that You hear our cries and You are faithful.

  85. Linnea says:

    Sick and Hungry…praying for you and your family and appreciate your honest testimony.

    PP Vet… thank you for warm reception….not!

  86. Sick-n-Hungry says:

    Thank you, Scott and Nonnie!

    It has been good to “lose” a bunch of stuff. This long experience has purged more than just physical items, it has purged unwanted things from our hearts we didn’t know were even there. I wouldn’t trade this and the good it’s brought … at least not until now.

    I have watched God provide in ways that have humbled me. I’ve also been mystified as this is such a long road that has led us to this cliff and why God is silent on the subject, but not on others? I had to face the facts that people die of starvation, even Christians. People experience far worse, like the Holocaust. Real Christians do suffer. It’s made me wonder if I am to trust God to provide a job or the grace to live through suffering at a humiliating level that I fear? God knows what He’s doing, but my expectations as a formerly financially set American have to change.

    With prolonged unemployment & underemployment comes humiliation. I derive my worth from Jesus Christ’s view of me, and He sees me as the person He is making me to be. I have value because I’m a child of the King of Kings! But that gets tested sorely in these circumstances.

    My trust is in God, not the government, not my church, not my family or friends, and not even in my own strength. At least, that is what I try to do. I still have it easier than my friends who have kids dying of cancer. And though this is vexing to my soul, I still don’t have the darkness I once knew before Jesus Christ invaded my heart!

    The prayer I need is obviously for a job. The greater prayer is that God will strengthen my faith in the fact that He knows what He’s doing.

    I do appreciate your kindness.

  87. Sick-n-Hungry says:

    Thanks, Linnea!

  88. Gary says:

    If you are in the San Francisco area my church can help you.

  89. SnH,
    Praying for you, Michael and others here who need employment.

  90. “I get a lot of nasty email telling me to “get a job”…”

    Seriously?! That is crap!

  91. My sinuses have been kicking up for a few days. That time of year, the weather changing in the fall always messes them up.
    My wife and I got into Holly Springs, MS and walked around and I took some photos of the fall leaves this afternoon.

  92. Michael says:


    I appreciate it.
    I don’t even bother posting prayer requests anymore …they bring joy to some.

  93. PP Vet says:

    S&H, thanks for sharing. Will pray.

    “PP Vet… thank you for warm reception….not!” Not sure where that came from, L, all I did was compliment you for the list you referenced. The rest was to non-commenting lurkers, encouraging them to jump in the pool. The way S&H did.

  94. Linnea says:

    Please accept my apologies, PP Vet…thought you were accusing me of lurking and posting an awful list. Guess I’m a little touch 🙂

  95. Linnea says:


  96. Steve Wright says:

    I could never be a member at Steve’s church. That much is clear.
    I think many of you would be shocked at the level of poverty where our church is located.

    Not rural America middle-of-nowhere poverty, but dying old city just a few miles from great wealth and southern California prosperity.

    Where there is more commercial space abandoned, for sale or condemned than active businesses. Where homeless people regularly sleep on the church property at night, and walk past it each day (not to mention the ones who come inside to worship with us). Where scores of immigrants stand on the street corners a block from the church looking for work, even without a Home Depot.

    Forget Home Depot, there is not ANY businesses part of mainstream corporate America that makes home by our place. We don’t even have a McDonalds or Burger King in walking distance. The only business most would know would be an ARCO gas station across the street. We had a Circle K but it closed and is boarded up. We had a Union 76 gas station but it too closed and is gated off. Just a few struggling mom & pop stores amidst the wreckage of Main St. I’m staggered by the sheer number of razed empty lots for sale as I drive to church. We did just have a new 100 until apartment complex built a block down the street. Of course, it is only available for those whose incomes are below the CA poverty line. Low income housing project only.

    Meanwhile, the story changes dramatically just a couple miles in most any direction. As do the number of churches serving those wealthier (sometimes FAR wealthier) than our crowd.

    You can google and zillow if you want to check me out. The new apartments are Pottery Court Apartments. A couple folks from our blog community know the church, and know the area. But better yet, come visit and see for yourself before the judgments are made….only do so if you really are comfortable worshipping among the impoverished, the fixed-income elderly, and the spectrum of ethnicities and backgrounds that is the Body of Christ.

    Two conversations of the many I had today are of interest. The first was my explaining why the church would not be doing the petition drive that so many other CA CCs are doing – not because we do not care about transgender bathrooms among school children – but because we don’t want anything political to get in the way of leading people to worship in Jesus Christ. That one’s my call.

    The credit for the second goes to all the dear folk here as I was with a couple as we remarked how cool it is that so many poor feel comfortable and at home worshiping here. I said, yeah, I would like that on my tombstone. The poor felt loved and at home where he pastored. I’ll take that to heaven by God’s grace. But like I said, that is thanks to the church as a whole. We have plenty of middle class and upper middle class folks who drive a few miles to come share and minister the love of Jesus here, rather than split for a more comfortable church amongst whom they can rub elbows more cleanly.

    You see, just as many of you do not understand me, I don’t understand how a blog community largely focused on accountability does not seem to care about holding accountable the one group that actually takes your money under threat of imprisonment.

    I don’t understand the disconnect between an expressed love for the poor and continued support for the policies that history has shown and continues to show are only hurting people and driving more and more people into poverty, while the rich get even richer,

    But I would never judge you for not caring about the poor because of your political views or lack thereof.

    Sick-n-Hungry – If you are in the Lake Elsinore area, you come by and ask for Pastor Steve. Your macro economic problems brought to us by President Obama, Governor Brown and decades of failed liberal good intentions are outside of our ability to assist. But we’ll make sure you and your family have food. We can fill up your gas tank to get to job interviews. We can try and help in other practical areas to the best of our ability. You don’t even have to go to our church – as of course the people who actually know us would testify.

    Blessings PhxP community.

  97. Scott says:

    Whatever happened to all those hundreds of millions of dollars spent to unleash those “shovel ready jobs”?

  98. brian says:

    I wish I had something I could say Hungry, I wish I could make it better but I am barely holding on myself. I guess one thing about my history is that I have always been barely holding on even as a kid our family was relatively poor compared to my contemporaries. But my parents tried real hard I love them for that.

  99. brian says:

    Pastor Steve I think it is great that you help as described some of us “christians” could not ask, I mean when my mother literally begged me to contact a pastor to say my sisters memorial I went white and almost got sick because asking is just that hard. I can ask for help for others just fine, ask for help for my students, or anything that is apologetically oriented but personal needs, thats evil. That I did learn quite well as a young christian and it took real deep.

    Funny thing is a kept apologizing for bothering the pastor, and my mother felt so guilty she sent him 100 bucks which he could not understand why me and her are like that. I dont understand it myself. I mean its stupid but some ideas just sink so deep.

  100. PP Vet says:

    A big electronic hug to you, L.

    300 PhxPr points to the first person who can name the Christian talk show host who gave electronic hugs.

    Please could someone explain Nadia Bolz-Weber? Is she Dr. Gene Scott redux or what? I am a big tent Xian but I do not know where she fits.

  101. What idiots listen to Christian talk show hosts?

  102. Steve,
    Good commentary – Lake Elsinore has always been the armpit of the southern Inland Empire. In the 80s everytime my company thought of putting a store there, I voted no.You do a good work there.

  103. erunner says:

    Steve, Religion and politics……. I guess it’s true what they say. God bless.

  104. brian says: this is Dr. Scott’s wife.
    Nadia Bolz-Weber is sort of the “bad boy” pastor type, but she is actually sort of interesting
    lady It is a youth rally she was at.

  105. PP Vet says:

    300 pts to e.

    “I don’t understand the disconnect between an expressed love for the poor and continued support for the policies that history has shown and continues to show are only hurting people and driving more and more people into poverty ….”

    Such a tough call. Look at any one case and the answer seems easy – who wants anyone to be hungry or homeless or sick? Look at the long-term effect of the policy, and the overall results are not as clear.

    Are we prosperous enough as a society to simply decide that everyone gets a certain minimum level of food, shelter, and medical care? Or a minimum income as proposed in Switzerland?

  106. Jim says:

    “Are we prosperous enough as a society to simply decide that everyone gets a certain minimum level of food, shelter, and medical care? Or a minimum income as proposed in Switzerland?”

    Can we simply decide to ignore what the war on poverty has done to the poor in America? Can we ignore the effects on the poor black family structure? Who is this “we” who are prosperous enough to have their earnings taken by force of law so we can be like Switzerland?

    Socialism is great until you run out of other people’s money.

    BTW, we ran out 17 trillion dollars ago….

  107. brian says: Does give some insite, some of the Christians I knew looked at it this way defense spending should be at a minimum 60-70% of our budget, there should be no regulatory functions for corporations they should totally be market regulated. corporations should pay no more than 2% tax and that was considered high. There should be no social spending at all that should be done by the states and even there it should be a bare minimum. Churches should take over all social help programs but should not be burdened with lazy people, which was basically everyone that did not have a job. This actually applied to vets as well which surprised me when I first heard it. We should cancel all foreign aid to all nations except maybe England and especially Isreal, in fact we should increase it dramatically. We should always hold a first strike posture with our nuclear arms and maybe even use tactical nukes before involving ground forces. We should give israel nuclear weapons. No immigration whatsoever, unless they have money. The list went on, and these were the liberal version.

  108. Jim says:


    I don’t know, nor have I ever heard of anyone who believes what you stated above.

  109. brian says:

    I hope this does not offend but I think this law is not well thought out, or just stupid.

  110. brian says:

    Jim it was many of the young folks I ran with they were sort of bill gothard reconstructionist types. The social programs for churches were only a few of them, but it was not spoken outloud but in conversation it come out. The tax rates were being thrown around the nuke discussions took place in the 80’s. After rereading it I was being disingenuous with my description, thanks for the correction it was very skewed My apologies. I need to be careful with that.

  111. brian says:

    Just an aside in our banters and disagreements it is important to remain honest. In my last post about what the Christians believed it had some validity but it was terribly skewed and on second reading, maybe even the first I find it dishonest on my part. I conglomerated several conversations and rhetoric to make a boogie man, Jim, thanks gave me a simple pin to let the air out. I apologize to the community and will do my very best to not be dramatic and make what is basically false caricatures about Christians or any other group.

  112. Steve Wright says:

    brian, that is the law concerning the petition drive I mentioned earlier when I wrote:

    ” we don’t want anything political to get in the way of leading people to worship in Jesus Christ. That one’s my call.”

  113. London says:

    Steve, I should have been more clear in why I couldn’t be a member.
    It had absolutely nothing to do with poverty levels in your church or town and everything to do with your political leanings.
    It’s not good or bad, just different than mine and I’m sure it would not be a good fit at all.
    It was a flippant remark, but not one meant to judge you or your church.
    I think it about other churches where people lean so hard to the right too.
    I know I would not fit in.

    I’m sorry if I offended you.

  114. brian says:

    Pastor Steve I did not notice that, I can understand the decisions you make. I came to see it do to a news feed and I was thinking about the schools I work at, what do we do if someone wants to go into our bathrooms where some of my students go to. I went back and saw your post.

  115. David sloane says:

    Thinking about this just now.

    Partisan politics mingled with Christianity will never satisfy the soul. Can one side be Christian and can the other side be Christian?

    Where I live (OC CA) you have to be leaning a certain way to be accepted as a Christian. Something that I oppose, the proper lean to be acceptable. Some would be shocked indeed to realize a great many wonderful Christians are of the ‘other’ side leaning the ‘other’ way.

    I had coffee at my local coffee shop at the counter. On my left the fellow wanted our president impeached. On my right the fellow praised our president. I like both of them so I stayed neutral.

    Here our common ground is Jesus Christ. Steve Wright and London can both be satisfied in Him. Both would be comfortable at His table.

    Behold how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity.
    Psalm 133:1

    Amazingly enough all of you here manage to do this, dwell together in unity. I like that!

  116. PP Vet says:

    Big difference between the two parties.

    Democrats want to plunge this country into socialism.

    Republicans believe in a slightly slower and more controlled descent into socialism.

  117. Whatever party, they need to put more controls on homeschooling and homeschoolers.

  118. David Sloan,
    Good point. My Lutheran church is in south OC and from what I can tell it is split pretty evenly between GOP and Dems (my sample is my fairly large Sunday morning Adult Bible Study class) – even the pastoral staff is varied on party choice.

    But Lutherans are smart enough to know that although Christianity can influence your politics, it has nothing to do with party choices. And, on the reverse side we also know that your party choice does not impact your Christianity.

  119. Xenia says:

    But Lutherans are smart enough to know that although Christianity can influence your politics, it has nothing to do with party choices<<<

    My Christianity will not permit me to join or support a political party that officially supports abortion rights and the homosexual agenda. By golly, that pesky Christian religion pervades every area of my life! I must not be as smart as a Lutheran!

  120. Xenia, there are millions of “Democrats for Life” who are working within the party system for change. By golly those pesky Christians who try to be salt and light to a degraded party.

    But I guess that the monastic background of the EO allows you to be smart enough to maintain the attitude of separation.

  121. Rob Murphy says:

    MLD – not a fan of the Barmen Declaration then I suppose?

  122. Jim says:

    118 is correct. 119 is surely a joke.

  123. Rob Murphy says:

    Millions of German Nationalists, working within the party system for change. By golly those pesky Christians who try to be salt and light to a degraded party.

  124. Xenia says:

    How evil would a political party have to be before smart Lutherans would say they could not join?

  125. Rob Murphy says:

    @ Xenia – historically? The answer is qualified and more than a little awkward where it’s not contrived.

  126. I agree with Xenia’s 121, but have unfortunately found myself unable to support the other party either. Christians find themselves in a hostile foreign land.

  127. London says:

    After I started going back to church in the last couple years, I ran into an old childhood friend at an evening service.
    We got up a bit in the parking lot and then he invited me to join in with a group who went to the nearby resturant for pie.
    I went so I could maybe meet some new folks and catch up with him as well.
    Wasn’t long before the talk turned political and democrat bashing ensued with comments like “how could anyone be stupid enough to vote for Obama? Etc”
    Of course it was blatant that they assumed being a Christian meant we were all of the same political bent and it was ok to malign everyone else.
    It was pretty uncomfortable but at least they showed their true colors and I didn’t invest a bunch of time on that group of folks.

  128. Xenia,
    “How evil would a political party have to be before smart Lutherans would say they could not join?”

    What if all California Christians joined the Democratic party to change it.

    How evil does a society have to be to get you to be salt & light. I too used to be like you, “us four no more, shut the door.” – but I’ve grown.

  129. Bob Sweat says:

    MLD’s hero was Barry “In your heart you know he’s right” Goldwater. 😉

  130. Xenia says:

    Josh, I agree with you. I removed myself from the Republican party a few years ago.

    MLD, how can you say you were once like me when you don’t know me at all?

  131. Well all the christians have run away from the democratic party to go hide in the christian confines – not much different than the Moral Majority of the 80s.

    Look at the Log Cabin Republicans who work within the system to change the GOP views on homosexuals? Why do Christians refuse to do the same, to join the dems and out vote them on their positions?

  132. “MLD, how can you say you were once like me when you don’t know me at all?”

    Perhaps you have revealed all I need to know. You said that you could not join an organization that disagrees with you – even with the purpose of change in mind.

    What else would i need to know?

  133. Xenia says:

    You are right, i don’t generally join organizations that are diametrically opposed to what I believe. Call me stupid, but there you have it.

  134. Xenia says:

    Would you like me to present you with a very long list of other organizations that I have not joined because I don’t agree with them?

  135. Xenia says:

    So MLD….. would you, as a smart Lutheran, have joined the Nazi party in Germany so you could change it from within?

  136. London says:

    The point if my story was that had I been a new Christian, I would have been convinced that I was “evil” as Xenia calls it or stupid as they called it.
    I just went to have a conversation with possible Christian friends, but ended up being ridiculed without their even knowing it.
    It was not a very positive experience.
    That kind of political elitism doesn’t belong in church settings in my opinion.

  137. Xenia, no I wouldn’t join the Nazi party because you would have no voice.

    But you immediately discounted the millions of people who belong to the democratic party who do work within. I brought up the millions who identify themselves as Democrats for Life

    But I do like the way you and Rob played the Hitler card.

  138. Xenia says:

    London, I should clarify that I don’t think Christians who join with the Democrats are evil. I think they have looked at both parties and arrived at the conclusion that the the issues they value most are better represented by the Democrats. I disagree with them, but I see their point. For me, the bad so far outweighs the good that I have decided not to be a member of any political party that currently exists.

  139. Steve Wright says:

    Look at the Log Cabin Republicans who work within the system to change the GOP views on homosexuals?
    Come on MLD. That is ridiculous. They are simply homosexuals who despise the welfare state, high taxes to support the welfare state, and basically the other economic policies of the left. I’m sure they would like it if the GOP changed its views, but they are not in the party to change its views – they are there because, other than that issue, they otherwise align with them on their other beliefs.

    Much like your pro-life Democrats. And in both cases there is not the slightest bit of “success” when it comes to changing the party’s view on the issue.

    Most competitive candidates in these parties won’t speak or even take campaign contributions from such groups within their midst.

  140. PP Vet says:

    #119 was Red Meat. And brought me quite a chuckle.

    The small pleasures of PP.

  141. Xenia says:

    Re 140, I dunno, MLD, if every Christian in Germany had joined the Nazi party and worked to change it from within, maybe WW2 could have been averted.

  142. Jim says:

    I was inwardly begging MLD to try to defend #119. Dem policies of the 60’s and the Bush dynasty initiatives have their own destructive legacies. The data is in, and the results are conclusive. When the fed govt tries to fix something, they always make it worse. They have proven that they are not the answer to any of our problems.

  143. Sick-n-Hungry says:

    Thanks, everyone, for your kind offers. I’m no where near those places, but your offers are appreciated. I guess it’s just safe to unload here, as well as encourage everyone to give to their local food banks, find ways to give gas money and grocery vouchers for soaps and such, during this time of transition for many all over the U.S.A. There are plenty of “me’s” in your area.

  144. Gary says:

    I used to have a great job. It was long hours but very satisfying and decent money. When the housing market collapsed and the economy slowed down my work slowed down. I was one of the last to be let go. I now have 3 part time jobs. I make about half of what I was making 2 years ago. I hope I’m not headed toward what you’re describing.

    My wife and I haven’t had health coverage or insurance for many years. My kids are threatening to move back home. We downsized last year and I don’t know how it would work out. We have a good landlord and he’s patient about late rent.

    I drive a 1992 Honda Civic. It has 492 thousand miles on it. I call it God’s car cuz the only way it could still work is by God holding it together. I do a lot of driving.

    I have some good friends at church. They would help me if I needed it. My pastors are good too but ultimately I have to believe that God is in control. If you were near me I would invite you and your fam over for dinner and we could have some fellowship.

    One day soon our country will collapse. When that happens the Christians will stop being petty and get serious with God. You may be on the crest of that wave. I don’t mean to sound negative but that’s what I see. Sorry.

  145. PP Vet says:

    That’s a great story, Gary, thanks for sharing.

  146. Sick-n-Hungry says:

    Gary, you may be right.

    Last night, my husband and I had a very serious talk. We had each been struggling with being able to really trust God seeing as we continue to careen towards the impending cliff. For a long time we had rock solid faith that God knew what was best and we could trust Him and His plans. But lately, as this has become more and more serious, with the costs being tangible, we have wavered. Then a call interrupted our conversation. It was a seasoned man in his 80’s. He uttered the most encouraging words. All I could hear was God talking. He said in about 20 different ways, “God wants us to trust Him, even when it all falls apart.”

    I have experienced this for long enough now, and gotten closer to the costs than ever before, that I realize how overwhelmingly hard it can be. It’s simply not a far jump to understand why someone would lose their full confidence in God, despite what He’s done in the past. Frankly, it’s easy from what I can see. YET, God still wants me to trust Him. He owns me, so I will, with His help.

    We have just received a call from another seasoned man in his 70’s. He his coming by to bring us an “envelope”. It’s one thing to receive help to get over the hump, to make it through a transition, but quite another thing when people basically support you for a long time because the roadblocks have grown and not diminished.

    Gary, I’m impressed with the ’92 Civic. We have 35 & 22 year old cars. One of them is running on duct tape and I’m proud! We were conservative in expenditures even when we made six figures. May God help us to continue to share with others and may He multiply our food along with our faith!

  147. Gary says:

    I just reread my post and it occurs to me that it may look like I was saying you are petty. No, I wasn’t referring to you. Not at all. That was a generalization.

    There was a lady on a Christian talk show (that some on this blog disdain). She told of her and her husband coming to faith in Christ. Her husband had swindled a lot of people. He told them all that he was sorry and he would pay them back as he was able. I expected her to say that God miraculously provided the money. Nope. She said that for those years they lived very frugally and ate the most simple foods. No meat. it got to the point that she was starving for meat so she started praying for meat. God provided a chicken. She was so thankful for that one chicken. It could come to that for all of us. Of course, if we get an earthquake here in California with a tidal wave and a few nukes thrown in for good measure it’s a moot point. 😉

    PP Vet, Thanks. You have a good sense of humor.

  148. Sick-n-Hungry says:

    No worries, Gary, I didn’t think you were commenting on my looks. But that box with the sideways G shows my best side! 😉

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