“Unity” the Calvary Way

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93 Responses

  1. Scott says:

    All this stuff seems so infantile.

    Not your reporting of it, just that it is even transpiring.

    Satan must be laughing at it all.

  2. Babylon's Dread says:

    I find all of this humorous. Get your book done.

  3. London says:

    Who cares?
    Honestly. Why even bother with them? They aren’t doing anything spectacular. Just changing organizational infrastructure. Happens every day.

  4. bob1 says:

    My favorite part is when Duville compared this little situation to Martin Luther’s break from Rome. How dopey can you get?

    Give me a major break!

  5. Michael says:

    London,

    You may not care and so it’s your prerogative to pass over this article.

    On the other hand , the pastors and churches that are being continually lied to and deceived by this group depend on me to bring some measure of clarity to what is actually happening.

    It’s unfortunate that they cannot get honest answers from their own, but that’s the case.

    Furthermore…many of us feel that Skip Heitzig should be held accountable for his actions with Gospel For Asia and want to know why no one in this “leadership council” is willing to do so.

    I could go on…it’s important to a lot of people.

  6. Michael says:

    One more thing…and maybe in my mind the biggest.

    We’re watching church history unfold here.

    In a hundred years, long after I’m gone all of this will be part of what those historians reference when trying to put together the story of this movement.

    Attention must be paid…a record kept.

  7. Nonnie says:

    He certainly has his panties in a twist over Rick Warren.

  8. covered says:

    I agree Michael, it does matter.

  9. Michael says:

    Nonnie,

    Hes always been a jackass…and his complaints are mainly nonsense.

    Still, his point about the CCA is one shared by many and deserves an answer.

  10. Inquiring minds want to know says:

    Micheal does anyone know whether this CCA entity has actual bylaws or a constitution in place?

    Also when someone on the so-called CCA leadership council or a regional CCA oversight member resigns, who decides on replacing the guys who leave?

  11. Michael says:

    covered,

    Thanks…
    Most people know that it would be easier for me to ignore it.
    We do quite well here without it, but a calling is a calling.

  12. Michael says:

    imwtk,

    To my knowledge there is only the barest legal framework…that was the case in the beginning.

    You must remember that a larger, more formal arrangement would invite liability and litigation…

    The way people are chosen for these positions is clouded in mystery, but it’s really done just by whichever of the boys are in the room at that time.

    There is rarely the case when all 19 gathered at the same time…

  13. stillcalvary says:

    If you are in the movement, this is important for several reasons. Some of us have been discussing this among ourselves. Here is what I wrote to a friend the other day.

    I didn’t get the other two letters sent out in March. Perhaps I’m not on his mailing list.

    I believe they have some valid concerns and have identified problems that stem from there being no clear lines of authority and procedure. It appears that everyone [in CCA] is flying by the seat of their pants and the one with the loudest bullhorn wins the day. They use means of intimidation, spiritual shame, a form of shunning, and avoiding critical questions of issues and decisions (all of these described by Douville). Within political systems (which all church organizations are) once these tactics are employed, the scope of authority usually gets bigger. What will the attempt to regulate next?

    This is testimony that those who color outside the lines of the CCA coloring book will be pushed to the margins, if not outside the building. I don’t agree with Douville’s assessment of much of anything (as noted, he does not distinguish the difference between CCA and CCCM) but there are two things that need to be considered.

    1. He has a right to his express his opinions without risk of being officially set aside. And while I strongly disagree with his views, they are not outside of the realm of all things Calvary.

    2. As they are cleaning house of the “discernment crowd”, who will they attempt to push out next in their quest to “stay the course”…. oh wait, that was Bryson’s and Paul Smith’s line…. 😉

    3. CCA is not above critique and some of it is needed to address blind spots within their organizational structure. Faithful are the wounds of a friend. (Pr 27:6).
    Let those who have an ear.

  14. When Doves Cry says:

    Reading this makes me so glad I’m not part of the movement anymore. At the same time I must admit to finding the whole thing quite amusing. I know I’m terrible but I couldn’t help but giggle reading that letter at the ridiculousness of it all.

  15. I don’t want them to split – I want to keep all of the CC false teaching in one self contained organization. 🙂

  16. Kevin H says:

    I’m with stillcalvary in a lot of the things he said.

    I don’t agree with many of Douville’s concerns within Calvary Chapel as many of them seem to be petty and unnecessary. However, his frustrations and concerns with the CCA appear to be valid. It seems as if the CCA is pretty much governing by the seat of their pants with very little structure or organization. While small organizations can get away with this type governance, large ones cannot as it leads to way too much chaos.

    An organization cannot claim to have some manner of oversight (and issues as “small” as deciding which conferences get posted on the website is oversight) over thousands of churches and operate in the manner in which the CCA is apparently doing. It cannot last long term as it is.

  17. Kevin H says:

    “The question before the house is why don’t these men admit the split and divide into two different denominations?”

    At least from the CC East Coast perspective, if a split happens, it couldn’t be into a different denomination. The word “denomination” is loathed. The newly separated entity would have to remain a “movement” or “association” of some sort.

    Ironic since the East Coast bunch are the ones more concerned with everyone sticking to doing things the same way and being more concerned with associations outside of CC. This would seem to be more denomination-like.

  18. surfer51 says:

    Sounds like Higgins.

    Quoted from PP:

    “Jackie Alnor has reported on her Facebook that John Higgins, a staunch traditionalist, has left the Calvary Chapel movement.

    Here is what he had said:

    “We feel that the original calling and vision for Calvary Chapel in 1966 was from the LORD.

    Therefore, we at Tri City have withdrawn from the present day hype, by notifying the CCA and Chuck Smith personally that we are no longer associated with the CCA or Costa Mesa.

    I have spoken of this at conferences with interesting results.

    We speak of being a independent fellowship of believers.

    This took place right after the June pastors conference in Marietta when Greg and Bob Coy presented their plan for integrating with the apostasies of today.

    Our church reps walked out and never returned.

    As a result, we have lost fellowship with many of the “Calvary’s” in our area as they have embraced these false teachers in hope of growth and (in my opinion) the hope of monetary gain.

    We at Tri City go back to 1966 when we were called into the battle field.

    And not wanting to change our name, (we say they should), are looking to incorporate the idea of the date 1966 in our logo.

    However, that is yet to be completed. Our fellowship know where we stand and we are strong in the strength of our Lord.

    I hope this gives you and your associates a clear understanding of our position.

    We are not fighting against CCCM and its ways but we are fighting for the Truth of God’s Word.
    In Jesus,
    John “

  19. surfer51 says:

    I typed something in 2014 on my blog.

    It is an account of God using me to speak to Chuck Smith.

    Chuck was told that he “would see the full extent of his Calvary Chapel family.”

    Shortly after that Chuck traveled around to all the Calvary Chapel’s with the band “Love Song.”

    In hindsight it is starting to look as if Chuck did indeed see “the full extent” of his Calvary chapel family.

    Especially in light of scripture.

    The phrase “a house divided against itself cannot stand” is literally talking about households, or nations.

    The meaning is quite simple.

    And it is similar to the saying “United we stand, divided we fall”.

    If the members of a group fight each other, the group will disintegrate.

    “And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.” Mark 3:25

    Calvary Chapel may have reached it’s full extent at the time of Chuck Smith’s graduation to heaven.

    Here is why I personally believe this to be the truth…

    http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2014/01/calvary-chapel-may-have-reached-its.html

  20. Al says:

    Interesting stuff.

    Great article Michael. Well done.

  21. pstrmike says:

    The Love Song tour was not that long. I believe they only went up and down the West Coast, visiting a few churches. Perhaps you think that was a gesture of seeing the full extent of the family?

    I saw them and they were well received. Very nostalgic. But I got the impression the world had moved on, and they really hadn’t much.

  22. Al says:

    ““Jackie Alnor has reported on her Facebook that John Higgins, a staunch traditionalist, has left the Calvary Chapel movement.”

    Ha, I remember Higgins trying to put the moves on my mom back in the day at Shiloh at the Calvary Chapel hippie commune in Dexter, Oregon.

    Higgins would give me rides on his motorcycle.

    …though, he may have proved a less abusive step-dad than Bob Grenier.

  23. Al says:

    Chuck Smith can lie like the devil. He wasn’t that specially anointed. I saw the real man behind the scenes and Dave Rolph was right there to witness it.

    Some of you still worship these men way too much. Get over it. Stop making them idols. It’s not healthy.

    Jesus. Worship Jesus. Stop worshipping men and institutions.

  24. Al says:

    Part of the Problem is some of the folks on here who still worship Chuck and Calvary Chapel as an Institution or Movement. <—-Those are both false idols. Stop it.

  25. Kevin H says:

    pstrmike,

    The Love Song tour with Chuck Smith visited CC Philly. Saw it with my own eyes. I was also under the impression that they were visiting some other CC’s in the East before/after Philly.

  26. EricL says:

    I wonder how many of the younger pastors really care about the Battle of the Old Kings? How many of the younger pastors have any voice in the movement, when the old guys refuse to relinquish any power or position?

    It reminds me of what happened after the death of Alexander the Great. Chuck’s empire is breaking up into multiple kingdoms as each general carves out his own domain.

  27. Michael says:

    EricL,

    A lot of them don’t.

    In fact, a lot of them don’t care about the various battle grounds like alcohol, Reformed theology, etc…

  28. Michael says:

    surfer,

    Prasch is a professional like Alex Jones is a professional…great line. 🙂

  29. Michael says:

    Kevin H,

    I think they did do a long tour as I recall.
    Not a show I would endure well…

  30. Al says:

    It’s all very human. Not spiritual at all. More reason to eschew the institutional church and cult-of-personalities when it comes to Jesus and spiritual things.

  31. Papias says:

    The letter is….interesting.

    A CC pastor bemoaning the lack of transparency in the leadership of the CC movement….oh the irony.

    CCCM and CCA are not that far apart in leadership.. CCA used to be located on the CCCM campus… maybe it still is?

    Its interesting to see the battle lines are being drawn. The split is coming, and it looks like it will be couched in terms of fidelity to the past versus being led of the Spirit.

  32. Michael says:

    CCA has been moved to Philly…

    The incredibly humorous reason given was that Brodersens secretary didn’t have time to handle both jobs.
    Because, you know, secretaries are in short supply in Orange County…

  33. Muff Potter says:

    Al wrote @ # 30:

    It’s all very human. Not spiritual at all. More reason to eschew the institutional church and cult-of-personalities when it comes to Jesus and spiritual things.

    True enough. But many folks believe that these men speak for Jesus with the full weight of Scripture on their side and wouldn’t dare and eschew it, not even when it’s chewing them up alive as surely as any secular despotism would.

  34. Disillusioned says:

    “But many folks believe that these men speak for Jesus with the full weight of Scripture on their side and wouldn’t dare and eschew it”

    ^^^The heart of the problem in all of this. Pastors setting themselves up as Pope, unquestionable in all matters spiritual. How much longer…?

  35. Babylon's Dread says:

    Let me give a dog’s bone to the conspiracy — discernment crew

    I think it is clear that contemplative spirituality is ascending

    The Vineyard USA is headlong into pursuits of spirituality partially because they have disconnected from the charisms of their founder to such a degree. Their need for Word AND Spirit has them redefining what it means to be ‘in the Spirit.’

    I think I could demonstrate that if I had time and interest. I don’t really have it.

    But their hand-wringing may have some legitimate reference

    However, that does not make contemplative prayer itself to be the bogeyman

  36. Michael says:

    What’s wrong with contemplative spirituality?

  37. Disillusioned says:

    Dang, just read the letter and turns out my abusive ex-pastor is mentioned and doing what he does best, manipulation and deception.
    Not surprised that these fakes are now all eating each other.

  38. nathan priddis says:

    Thank you Michael for following the issues.. This is an important historical segment of church history as it unfolds through the years.

    Gothard-ism, The Charismatic Renewal and the Jesus Movement, are in my mind, the three dominant factors in the global Church, post Latter-day rain. Young adherents grow up and find positions of leadership in the Church, broader society and government, with results both good, bad and dangerous for society.

  39. Michael says:

    nathan,

    It’s an interesting time to say the least…

  40. Babylon's Dread says:

    I think nathan is speaking personally … it is just too big of a claim

    However, my own influences
    Gothard — 70s — I largely threw him off afterward
    Denominationalism — 80s-90s my Baptist — Billy Grahamism
    Renewal since 97…

    And I would say I am definitely good bad and ugly

  41. pstrmike says:

    @25
    Thanks Kevin H.

    @35. If you would ever develop an interest, I’d like to icommunicate with you about that. This is part of the area that I am looking for in writing my dissertation. I know how to contact you…..

    @38. Mr. priddis is getting closer to the bullseye. I question whether there was a real latter rain, but that also ties into what dread is asserting.

    I did a similar path…… Denominationalism. Old time CC charismaticism (there was such a thing), Gothardism, denominationalism, some Pentecostalism, then non-denom of different constructs then back to CC, which is really a denomination.

    I think the contemplative route is a good alternative to the renewal craziness that I was exposed to. I want more of God. While scripture must be our guide, our relationship to the work of the Holy Spirit in us and through us is personal and subjective. And Rick Warren doesn’t have horns growing out of his head. He didn’t back in the 70’s, nor does he have them today.

  42. Andrew says:

    What’s wrong with contemplative spirituality?
    ___________________________________________________________
    Well I suppose it all goes to your definition. I have certainly seen some things labeled “contemplative spirituality” that I would definitely stay away from. I guess it goes both ways. Some ODMs go crazy if you mention it. I suppose this could be an over reaction to some of the bad stuff. However, some will say there is absolutely nothing wrong with it but than they can never give you their honest definition of it either.

  43. Tim Brown says:

    From the Trenches…

    I am a small fish in a big pond. In my section of the pond, what is addressed in the OP is not discussed among Bay Area pastors. And this is not because it is forbidden, it’s because it’s not on our radar screen. I know I’ll get hammered no matter how finely nuanced I cast the thing, but I think I could say that the vast majority of the Calvary pastors I fellowship with would yawn at this stuff. It might occupy 60 seconds of conversation followed by a “whatever.” I think that for many of us that this is sound and fury signifying nothing.

    Obviously, for those who invest meaning in this, it is sound and fury signifying something. But I’m not convinced that this something is as ominous as is forecast. I sense no seismic rumblings through the fabric of CC – but then I’m no prophet, either.

    I have never heard any talk about which of us has an east coast or a west coast alliance or leanings. If you were to ask me, in an unguarded moment what, if anything, is going on between an east coast CCA and a west coast CCCM, I would respond by saying ‘personalities’ not wholesale philosophies of ministry.

    I belong to the N. California/Nevada CCA. What confused me in Dwight’s letter was him removing himself from CCA governance. That was news to me. I didn’t know CCA governed anything. Our mandate is to affiliate or disaffiliate. If that’s what is meant by governance, that is quite a narrowly construed understanding. If he means were CCA to disaffiliate him he would not drop the name of CC and continue to follow the foundation that Pastor Chuck poured. I would say, “Well, OK.” If CCA moved to sue, I would counsel just dropping it. The Bible instructs us not to take a brother to court. Most of us are scandalized and embarrassed at the lawsuits following Chuck’s death.

    Shunning someone for asking unsettling questions is silly. When unsettling questions are asked and this is met by silence and silence is met by agitation and agitation is met by shunning – you have left the realm of rational discourse, personality begins to reign – and it becomes a battle of the wills. I think we may be seeing a battle of the wills among a few players. I don’t know that an irrational process has a rational conclusion. I tell my pastor friends that 60-70% of our problems could be eliminated by learning people skills.

    Yes, there is drama in some of the CCA family, but from my perspective, from where I sit – in the trenches w the church and quite a few other CC pastors – we don’t see a family in turmoil. Far from it in the Bay Area – the peace of Christ and the fellowship of pastors is sweet and mutually edifying. I am sorry for the troubles some are having.

    Tim Brown, Pastor
    Calvary Chapel Fremont

  44. Jess says:

    Interesting letter from Dwight Douville. I’ve met him many times when I was in ministry in neighboring Iowa. He didn’t strike me as someone that would take this kind of a stand. But, I applaud him for doing it. I don’t intend to start a debate about whether catholicism is Christian (I do not believe that it is), but that issue did come up in Douville’s letter, as a strike against “west coast” for affirming catholicism as Christian. What is interesting about that, is that Chuck Smith said that catholicism is Christian, for about 40 years of his life. In books, in messages, on the radio. Douville remembers a “Chuck Smith” that was never as he is imagining him right now.

  45. Al says:

    I respect that Tim Brown speaks up and puts his name on his stuff…even if I sometimes disagree with what he says.

  46. Al says:

    Actually, what is being represented here evidenced by Douville’s thing and then what Tim Brown says…and what Michael and I know…is this:

    It’s a big giant flustercluck, it’s liking watching a Post-Soviet Russia disband and decentralize after the end of the Cold War…or a bit like Post-Saddam Iraq….but with far less serious matters at hand b/c truth be told Calvary Chapel really isn’t that important outside of a Brand that still is slightly important to some people….but important like Cinnabon is important, which is not really that important.

  47. Al says:

    I’m beginning to agree with Michael that it really does boil down to the individual franchisee and whether or not that CC franchisee runs a personality-driven semi-cult or not.

    The politics of CC is probably not nearly as important as pointing out the really bad franchises so folks can avoid those bad apples.

  48. Al says:

    Jess, Chuck Smith became much more ecumenical over time…and toward the end of his life he even once said Mormons could be Christians…not nearly all in his opinion, but he did not close the door that some or even many could be and probably were. That’s what he said.

  49. Al says:

    But, does Chuck Smith’s opinion even matter more than my opinion? More than your opinion? Probably not….

  50. Crusader says:

    To follow up on Tim Brown’s point, also being here in the Bay Area and being part of a local Calvary Chapel in this area, from what I’ve witnessed from other local CCs here in the area as well, whatever level of drama there may be in CCA, it hasn’t had an effect in doctrine or in practice in my church or in the other local CCs here.

  51. pstrmike says:

    Rev. Brown,
    We disagree more that agree when it comes to these things. Nothing new about that here. Rather than addressing your post point by point, I’ll respond with a more general approach.

    I wouldn’t call this drama, it is identifying problems within the system. While we may be divided by region, we are still a part of the same international movement that appears, at least from my vantage point, to be heading in different directions, at least by some. To me, that isn’t really a problem.. I have advocated widening the tent for quite some time.

    What is going on here is an assertion of authority to suppress someone that has some different opinions about some things. I’ll give good odds that Douville probably holds fast to the distinctives, which, to my understanding, was the criteria of “fellowship” with CC.

    I will agree with you that the majority of CC pastors really don’t care about these things, and for a number of different reasons. Some simply do not think in these categories.

    When leaders make subjective decisions that are not informed by proper, agreed upon guidelines they invite abuse, unethical methodology and injustice. Ultimately, the bad fruit trickles down to the rank and file and the whole lump becomes leavened.

  52. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    pstrmike,
    “When leaders make subjective decisions that are not informed by proper, agreed upon guidelines they invite abuse, unethical methodology and injustice.”

    Take a vote to determine what to do – get all the CC guys together, set agenda items, present both side and then have a vote. When the vote is over, no matter how it goes, get out the communion elements – have communion and go home.

    LCMS is ready to meet (once every 3 years) plenty of contentious items – my 2 pastors and I disagree on almost all the issues being presented (seriously) – but we will accept the outcome and go out and have cocktails together.

    CC does an injustice to itself by not voting on issues.

  53. pstrmike says:

    Mld,
    That is a great suggestion.

    It is time for a Polity in overseeing ecclesiastical matters.

  54. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    pstrmike – I was going to say it’s time to grow up – butt as usual you worded it better

  55. pstrmike says:

    LoL !!! 😉

  56. Andrew says:

    MLD, voting is not part of CC’s DNA and I doubt it ever will be. It is infact this form of governance that caused their growth but I predict will also cause their downfall if they don’t change to a more biblical model. The only type of voting accepted is voting with your feet. And this is exactly what Douville did in a pretty childish way with that letter he wrote. But never the less he made his point.

  57. Andrew – I know it would never happen with the pastors and the mere pewster, but you would think that at the CCA level, they would pass down the vote to their pastors.

    It does make me wonder – if there is no chain of authority and no money passes hands from the churches to the CCA (like we Lutherans funnel money to the district who in turn funnels it up to the synod – exactly what does CCA do.

    When the CCA guys get up in the morning and their wife says “what are you going to do today, honey?” What would he say?

  58. Al says:

    “When the CCA guys get up in the morning and their wife says “what are you going to do today, honey?” What would he say?”

    OMG, that is funny…..and this is going to get funny….

  59. Michael says:

    Tim,

    For over a decade I have been writing these articles and for over a decade I can count on someone showing up from Calvary Chapel to state that I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about after I publish them.

    I will say that you are more polite about it than previous naysayers.

    I’m not sure if you guys think I get up in the morning and say to myself “I think I’ll write some crap about Calvary today” or if an evil blog spirit descends upon my Mac to deceive me.

    The truth is that these articles are the result of CC pastors contacting me…from well known to the rank and file, who are frustrated and/or upset about the state of things at the time I write.

    Many of the critics have become friends…because over time they find that what I wrote was true.

    There is frustration at the grass roots level over who the CCA is, what they do, and who they are accountable to.

    There is big frustration that many are choking on over how the CCA has refused to deal with Heitzig and the GFA mess.

    It has many asking who these men are accountable to.

    I’ve talked to your peers from all over the country and some foreign countries as well…and if you don’t think this is an issue, it’s because you don’t want to think that way.

  60. Michael says:

    I want to keep this on track…and on point.
    Period.

  61. Al says:

    Michael. WOW, BG’s recent daughter-in-law and deep insider testified under oath today. OMG. She confirmed pretty much everything I’ve reported for years…and corroborated what many others already have and will under oath.

    Bob Grenier has no intention of this seeing a Jury Trial. He will simply drag it out to the day of Trial in an attempt to make me spend money, which is fine, I give it to God and others willingly. He will drop the lawsuit at the steps of the courthouse. I know my Enemy, I know myself. That is who he is and what he will do.

    This is as I foresaw when I took on this battle in 2009.

  62. Al says:

    Sorry for the diversion 🙂

  63. Michael says:

    No problem.
    You’re handling the place well and it’s time for me to collapse anyway. 🙂

  64. PastorMiles says:

    I received this letter in the mail Tuesday morning. Though I have no clue who Dwight Douville is, nor do I know why he sent it to me. Apparently he has the mailing list of Calvary’s. I also received with the letter some associated materials, including a dvd of a teaching from a pastor I’ve never heard of (Chick from St. Paul).

    Personally I was amused by the letter and the content with it, so I decided to watch the dvd. It was amusing as well. It reminded me of that movie (a true story) “A Beautiful Mind” in which the main character has schizophrenia, interacts with individuals that are a figment of his imagination and sees conspiratorial codes in everything.

    From what I saw, Chick sees connections where there are none. It’s amusing. In a sad sort of way. Apparently us left coast Calvary’s are destroying the fabric of what is Calvary. We’re clipping the wings of the dove. From what I gather, the right coast Calvary’s are basically just as bad. Thankfully we have the mid-west Calvary’s! Their brand of Christianity and Calvary is pretty much right-wing Fox News/Glenn Beck Christianity (which is actually Mormonism, the last time I checked). But hey… freedom of religion. That’s America.

    Calvary Chapel, just like every church, denomination, movement is imperfect. It’s filled with imperfect people and pastors who (for the most part) are genuinely trying to serve Christ and His church. Some of those players seem to want to have larger influence over the ‘movement.’ Like Tim said, they have big personalities. Thankfully, the last time I checked, every Calvary was independently governed and autonomous. So, I guess that means it’s perfectly fine for Dwight (on July 4th no less) to declare his independence from CCA. Which is laughable. Cause CCA is a total nonissue. All CCA really is is a terribly built website that, for several years, had a resources section with no resources.

    I’m glad Dwight declared his independence! Now he can be free 😉 And Chick too! YAY!!!

  65. Michael says:

    “It reminded me of that movie (a true story) “A Beautiful Mind” in which the main character has schizophrenia, interacts with individuals that are a figment of his imagination and sees conspiratorial codes in everything.”

    That…is a perfect description of most ODM’s.
    I wish I’d written it. 🙂

  66. Al says:

    ^^ haha that is a perfect analogy.

  67. Jess says:

    Alex, yes, I’m aware of Chuck saying that mormonism could potentially be Christian. I think that’s the point of all of this. Dwight Douville and the ODM’s are going to be mocked here, but the only difference between the DD/ODM and the people here, are that the ODM’s tolerate less than you tolerate. The even more liberal-minded is mocking the people here for what you refuse to tolerate, that they so easily tolerate. It’s all relative. Chuck Smith might have “softened” near the end, but he was staunchly anti-PDL. And some want things to stay that way. But many want the “west coast” way. No need to have CC split. What is a Methodist, or a Baptist anymore. The name means nothing. CC will be like that.

  68. bpb1 says:

    #64

    I noticed in the Dwight Douville letter that a “reverse cherry picking” was underway.

    Cherry picking, the way I understand, means finding/noticing easy things that are positive.

    But like PastorMiles said, these upper midwest CCs do seem to sniff something under every rock.

    That’s not healthy in many ways.

    But hey, paranoia is hightened awareness! 🙂

  69. pstrmike says:

    @64
    That was funny. I wouuldn’t go as far to say that CCA is a non issue. They are posturing as leaders without doing the hard things of holding themselves or their peers accountable over questionable practices or situations that cover with a cloud of suspicion. They are the ones who speak at most of the conferences and in particular sit on the panel discussions answering questions of orthopraxy. Become pre-wrath, lean too far toward Reformed theology, become too friendly with Hillsongs, or sound too much like Bryson, and see how much of an issue CCA can be. They have influence, but as you eluded to, only if you heed them.

  70. Al says:

    Jess, I don’t think I disagree with that last post you made.

  71. Al says:

    Jess, personally, I agree with the ODM’s when they expect “pastors/elders” to uphold the Qualifications with regards to Moral Issues. Where I diverge from the ODM’s is when they divide over doctrinal/theological issues which can be very subjective.

    For instance, a pastor who commits child abuse or adultery or has sex with another man or is a drug addict or drunkard or beats his wife etc….those are pretty cut-and-dry issues that don’t require interpretation and nuance.

    Dividing over a particular doctrine like whose eschatology is correct is so subjective, I don’t think it is critical to salvation and not an essential.

  72. Jess says:

    Alex, thank you. It’s pretty elementary, once a person gets outside of the “we criticize those less tolerant than ourselves” mentality found in really everyone under the “Christian” label. Because everybody has something they refuse to tolerate, and thus they set themselves up to be mocked by those that tolerate what they won’t.

  73. Jess says:

    Unless, of course, you go where you just went, Alex. 🙂 Which is, the “critical to salvation” issue. 31,000 flavors, nuances, views. I’m some boring John 3:16 guy, which sets me up to get mocked by the more legalistic view, and then mocked on the other side by the semi-universalistics.

  74. DavidM says:

    Been a CC guy for decades. I know the guys involved. It is a huge yawner for me. Who cares, other than a tiny handful of like-minded CC pastors? I do not feel that any of thes actions of “principle” are going to prove to be significant as time moves forward. They are the actions of self-important men, and will not alter the evangelical landscape in any noticible way.
    My 2 cents.

  75. Al says:

    Jess, I’m right there with you….and I’ve explored all ends of the Tent and even stepped outside the Tent for a bit.

  76. PastorMiles says:

    @69

    You said “posturing as leaders.” Truly that’s all it is. Maybe “posing as leaders” where the movement is concerned would be better. They speak at all the conferences because Calvary (like virtually every other fraternity) is a good old boys club. I’m sure that will make me more friends for saying it, but that’s what it is. So what! It is what it is.

    They pay the money to put on the conferences. They can speak at their own conferences and be the gatekeepers of who else is on the speakers list. That’s how it works. And their constituencies pay to see them at their conferences. But really, they only have authority over their conferences. So they barred Bryson from coming to a conference. He still owns and operates calvarychapeltheology.com (which is only slightly more laughable than calvarychapelassociation.com). Will they take the site away from him? No. And they shouldn’t. Will they force Dwight to stop using the Calvary Chapel Name? I highly doubt it. It’s not worth their time, effort or any money they’d throw at it. (Frankly, if guys feel as Dwight apparently does, they should call their church something different. The Pastor they so loved was very fond of asking people to do that. And as they love to chant, they might as well “not go away angry, just go away”)

    CCA has about as much authority over the church that I pastor as Rick Warren (the perceived goblin) has over your church. I have a good relationship with Calvary guys in my area. All I really care about is the relational connection I maintain with those guys. But I also have a great relationship with the SBC and EV Free guys in my area (which apparently makes people like me dangerous among the #beautifulminds of Calvary). Of course, I’m one of those SoCal Calvary Pastors who is ruining Calvary (which is actually what I was told 3 years ago when one of the Mid West CCA guys called to chew me out.

    All of this is pure comedy. It’s like watching the 2016 Presidential Election. It makes for good web chatter.

  77. That Guy Over There says:

    Miles,

    That’s how it felt for non-so cal guys for a long time. It was those guys in Europe or the PacNW who were ruining things… It’s just your turn 😉

  78. PastorMiles says:

    @77

    Don’t misunderstand… I’m good with it.

  79. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    In my #57 I kind of joked about the role of CCA – but seriously, what do they do? Do they just run a website? Are they funded or do the leaders just do CCA stuff on their church’s time. Who pays Don McClure?

  80. Michael says:

    MLD,

    I wrote this last year and prophesied in the comments…
    https://phoenixpreacher.com/?p=22489

    Who pays Don McClure?

    If memory serves me it was CC Philly, then another arrangement that I’m not at liberty to write on.
    There are days when I think the group exists solely so he can collect a check, but thats just me…

  81. Kevin H says:

    Don McClure was an assistant pastor at CC Philly for a few years. No idea what he was paid for that gig or anything to do with CCA. As we all know, it is not the Calvary way to speak of any financials or make them readily available. At some point, his official role as assistant pastor apparently ended in the last couple of years as he is no longer listed in the bulletin as such. (Strangely, he was never listed on the church website as an assistant pastor even though all the other assistants are always listed.) No announcement that I’m aware of was ever made about him no longer being an assistant pastor. Having no announcement of pastors coming on staff or leaving is not uncommon. However, despite that he is apparently no longer an assistant pastor he still shows up from time to time at the church to fill in the pulpit or be involved with other events.

  82. EricL says:

    If you check out the calendar at Calvary Way (Don McClure’s ministry), you’ll see that he and/or his wife are speaking almost every weekend somewhere in the USA. I would guess he supports himself by hitting the CC Preaching Circuit. He’s at conferences, retreats, or pulpits constantly. He even came to my old non-denom church once a year because the senior pastor once was on Don’s staff and felt a loyalty to him.

    For an older guy who has had some serious health issues in the past, he’s keeping an impressive schedule. I certainly wouldn’t want to live out of a suitcase like he’s doing.

  83. Michael says:

    McClure is an odd duck.
    After all these years, that’s my conclusion.
    Very odd duck…

  84. I will say that I like Don McClure – he seems like the real deal – but like Michael said, somewhat of an odd duck.

    He keeps on going like the energizer bunny – heck, he is older than me and he runs on one eye and one lung – admirable.

  85. Michael says:

    That’s the difference between MLD and me… 🙂
    Don and I do not like each other…

  86. EricL says:

    Don has no idea who I am, but he has had an impact on my life nonetheless. Both positive and negative. I attended a church he founded years earlier (positive). I was part of a church plant- it wasn’t even a CC- that he tried to squash (negative). I’ve been inspired by his tenacity in spite of his physical ailments, and I’ve also been embarrassed at his tone-deafness toward those suffering in the church.

    An odd duck? I guess so, but he keeps on paddling about the pond, trying sincerely to be the best duck he can be.

    He is old-school CC, but not in wanting to bring back the spontaneity, intimacy, and power of the early years. It seems that his “golden era” of CC was a bit later, when everything first solidified into a list of dos and don’ts, a quirky time full of cultural baggage from the 70s and early 80s. Just my thoughts…

  87. Just passing by says:

    Yes Douville is a nutcase,just ask his 1st. and 2nd. wife. He’s now on wife # 3. He needs to clean up his own life and is even more dangerous with having no accountability. Not that he ever had any.

  88. j2theperson says:

    You say that CC Appleton is still listed on the Calvary Chapel Association website as one of their churches. As of July 30 I looked for it and it does not appear to be listed anymore.

  89. JM says:

    Michael,

    This may be slightly funny. I only recently began to be part of your blog (for which I am truly grateful) and am now doing research on another matter. I was trying to get information on a writer of a piece that I originally found to be incomplete and seemed to put an undeserved, positive “spin” on something CS did in CC’s past. It led me to try and get information on CC Appleton and, when I did a search of the pastor’s name (Dwight Douville)–it brought me back to your site–twice! Though I have made an honest effort–I don’t think I will ever be able to mine all of the pertinent information that your site apparently contains. I do find your blog increasingly very helpful, thoughl. Thank you so very much for what you have been willing to do for those who needed validation after hitting the CC wall of silence.

    Interestingly, the article, to which I openly objected by the party who posted it, may have been edited recently to omit the questionable portions. I am still trying to figure that out. But, that’s actually another matter. My question now is about the history of pastor Dwight Douville. Because of what has shown up in my search (and alluded to by others), I wish to know if he is Scripturally qualified to be a pastor. If he is not, then it would be reasonable to find out if his staff/board knew of it. If so, it would be like rerunning a disgustingCC plot over and over, but changing the names. Sick.

    If you are able to shed a little more light on this for me, it would be greatly appreciated. However, as I think I said in earlier requests, if you cannot, or it would cause you any problems, don’t worry it. I am already appreciative of so much. Infact, since this query has landed on a weekend, I would even encourage you to enjoy time off and visit it later, if you wish.

    Thanks ahead for any comment whether small or great.

  90. Michael says:

    JM,

    We ran a lot of stuff on Douville…unfortunately I lost the archives pre 2009 where a lot of that resides.
    Douville is not qualified for the pastorate in my opinion due to the way he treated his former wife.
    He is not an official Calvary Chapel anymore as he withdrew from the affiliation due to doctrinal issues.

  91. JM says:

    Michael, thank you for such a speedy response. I appreciate it. I do remember the man making a stink about separating from the CCA. As I recall, it was mainly over the new direction and doctrine. The reason I am doing this research is that I am wondering if he and his church would be among a group who are objecting to the way things are going doctrinally and yet have had no trouble hiding the sin within their own church leadership. It seems to be CC’s modus operandi. Further, it would be good to know if they were among the ones that knew of Chuck’s disqualification and went along with it by their silence. Obviously, if we have found out, a lot of pastors knew. Even with putting themselves outside of CC/CCA, they seem to be a prominent church because they host those prophecy conferences. What they do will still affect the body of Christ. I would want to know if, for all their show of righteousness, were they, indeed, complicit in the cover up of sin in their own camp as well as CS’s sin (by their silence–as so many were). It is all part of the bad fruit passed down. The “Pollyanna” in me wishes the truth known about duplicitous pastors ahead of time would finally stop something as awful as a Coy or a Caldwell before it happens. It’s so hard to see the suffering that goes on.

  92. Michael says:

    I would have my doubts about how much Douville knew about Smith…although Smith intervened for him when his board tried to sit him down for a sabbatical.

    The cold, hard, fact you need to get a grip on is that most congregations don’t care…and they are ultimately responsible for the continuing mess.

  93. JM says:

    Smith intervened in that, too! What a liar he was about not having certain power. I wish I could get more info on all of it, but I understand if it has been lost.

    It is good that you said that second sentence “outloud”. I can’t argue with it. I could guess that your astute observation was behind the post about what to do when a pastor fails (after the Caldwell announcement). Jean also posted some good advice along those lines on the blog thread regarding Caldwell. I heartily agree with all of that. I would like to think that I backed up the need for personal responsibility in some of comments.

    We, like you & Jean, have tried and tried to advocate that people ask a lot of questions before they become involved in a certain fellowship. For those already inside, we have given them a set of questions they should ask before continuing. To be fair, part of the problem is that there is a lot of lying that goes on in church leadership. You could do everything right and, because there is so much lying and covering up, it may be hard to get complete and accurate information in the beginning. That is why your site is so needed–and so appreciated. It’s a great resource for those who have questions about CC in particular and church practice in general.

    Indeed, we do have to take responsibility for ourselves and never accept bad behavior from anyone in leadership. Otherwise we will get what we put up with.

    I thank you again, Michael, and wish you good rest and great joy in the Lord today.

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