17.

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60 Responses

  1. Xenia says:

    (Copied from the other thread.)

    For decades I have voted for the Republican candidate because I was tricked into believing they were pro-life. I bet many of you were tricked, too. Yet this day they have blood on their hands. They have been bought by the NRA.

    Dear Senator Rubio, I am glad you prayed. Now that you have heard from God, please repent of being bribed by the NRA, get up off your knees and start working on a bill to change the nations gun laws. Thank you.

    Trump and the Repubs are not blaming the proliferation of guns, they are blaming the shooter’s neighbors, the students, and the teachers instead. They saw something but didn’t say something. Their fault.

    Our nation is being held hostage by people who claim the right to own war weapons as a hobby. Think about that: a hobby. They are collectors, they say, and like target practice.

    A sheriff from Broward County is on TV telling Americana how to spy on our neighbors. Do they usually bring home groceries bags full of milk and eggs and now they are spending time out at the gun range? Call the cops on them! See something, say something!

    Trump is wondering on Twitter why the shooter’s mental instability wasn’t reported. (It was, turns out.) Trump, your mental instability has been noted and reported widely for the past year so you can see that isn’t very effective.

    He’s blaming the victims, as usual. That’s what people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder do, they blame the victims. That NRA money might dry up if he blamed the proliferation of assault weapons.

    “People kill people, not guns.” What a fatuous phrase. All countries have people but only among the wealthy nations do you find the combination of lax gun laws and school killings after school killings after school killings. It’s not “people,” it’s not the mentally ill, it’s the availability of weapons of war that allows marginal people to go on rampages.

    Yeah Republicans, I’m looking at YOU. If you are as pro-life as you claim, put an end to this carnage. Refuse to vote for any candidate who gets NRA money and instead, vote for the candidate who wants sane gun laws. Otherwise, the blood is on your hands.

  2. Duane Arnold says:

    Xenia

    Many thanks.

  3. Rick says:

    Some years ago our house was burglarized; the police officer who took the report said this to my wife and me: “Get a gun, we can’t protect you.”

  4. Duane Arnold says:

    My home was broken into n the UK. The burglars were arrested by two policemen… neither wearing guns.

    I think it is a hard different situation than the mass shootings in our schools…

  5. John 20:29 says:

    copied from a comment (#17) i left yesterday on open blog – surprised anyone read it, but…
    “Its Ash Wednesday and Christians are repenting, but all “good”people in this nation are grieving again and looking for a way to stop the shootings…
    It’s easy to say ban guns, guns kill… but, if we take a deep breath and look at our society today – our lawless and self centered ways – perhaps we might see that these shooting, bombings and attacks on pedestrians with cars and trucks, are the fruit of lawlessness – far different from what began as a good questioning of authority and that is the real problem IMNSHO…
    …… ”

    see something say something is absolutely sane… so far it hasn’t helped…trouble is, none of us responsible people want to meddle in other people’s business
    would we benefit from some better thought out gun laws (and intelligent and diligent enforcement of them)? yes, we would
    confiscate the guns and save our children is IMV, and said with respect for all here, a red herring… for Christians of any stripe to focus on guns as the problem overlooks what’s happening in our nation…

    would we be a more peaceful people if all the guns were confiscated and dropped in the ocean? well, maybe… i doubt it, however, as people weren’t too peaceful in the days before guns and bombs and things… yes, people with guns do kill people and, according to our Lord, we people do it with our tongues and prejudices also…

    save the children, by changing society’s morality … yes, our society is changing, but not for the better… in my old fashioned view, we should pray for another Billy – Sunday or Graham – a man with a voice and a platform and the guts to get in the face of sinners and tell the race of man like it is… i suspect the nation’s conscience has been “seared with that hot iron,” however
    so… will taking away guns please the Lord?
    Adolph Hitler would never have stood for his people owning guns, not Stalin, nor any other dictator and that is what we’re moving toward in this nation… yes, it would make sense when the people are as lawless and Godless as they are today – so?

    so i see two choices a nation that values integrity or a nation under a dictatorship… we are not England… nor Sweden… and it is just possible that we are now, too big and multicultural (Godless) to be governed by integrity – “the times they are a changing,” indeed… get rid of the guns, if you choose and you probably will do so; it is the “intelligent,” civilized thing to do, after all

    praying for all those grieving now and those who will yet grieve as it seems we will harvest more bitter fruit of depravity, much of it far deeper, more damaging and far more subtle than the twisted mind of the maniac with a gun

  6. Rick says:

    News reports say that FBI was made aware of the shooter months ago. Law enforcement, for whatever reasons, cannot protect us in a myriad of circumstances. They can do great things in apprehending criminals. Not a knock on them at all, just a recognition of human limitations.

  7. Rick says:

    I strongly support anyone’s personal choice to not have a gun.

  8. Rick says:

    I struggle with the impulse of many for a type of blanket solution that would take a layer of self-defense away from an entire population.

  9. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I have a point of view, but no one ever listens.
    1.) we should have an automatic death penalty for the use of a gun in the commission of any crime. This would cover the one with a gun, any accomplices or co conspirators. Now I know that most people who do these mass killings are usually expecting to die at the scene but I think it is the only way to change the gun culture problem. It would take a generation – but law abiding people can keep their weapons.
    2.) Michael mentioned on the other thread the need for social / mental health programs and the cost and with the same breath mentioned the military budget. I think it is time that we cut the military budget at least in half and spend that savings on our own social and infrastructure needs. To do so, we need to tell the world it is time for them to step up and provide for their own defense – we are busy fighting an enemy within.
    That’s about it.

  10. Kevin H says:

    Rick,

    I can’t speak for everyone here as most certainly there are a variety of opinions and beliefs. I am not one for having a blanket ban against all or almost all guns in the general population.

    However, as one who has always been in favor of allowing gun ownership and even believe in some circumstances it can make things safer by allowing for gun ownership, I believe we need to make some drastic changes in this country as to what kind of guns we allow and to the degree that we allow people to stockpile guns and ammunition.

    Yes, there will always be killings and violence, including gun violence, even if guns were totally banned. But with the proliferation of these school shootings and other mass shootings, it is very hard to believe that there would not be a reduction of killings to some substantial degree if we started putting some significant limitations on gun ownership.

  11. Rick says:

    Kevin, I hope you are right; I have difficulty wrapping my head around that belief. In terms of this world, what I have personally wished were true rarely has been.

  12. Xenia says:

    I didn’t say ALL guns should be banned, I said assault rifles, for a start.

  13. Duane Arnold says:

    #10 Kevin

    I think you speak for many who desire a reasonable solution. In my mind, part of it has to do with the sort of guns people are allowed to buy/possess. Is there a need for civilians to have military styled automatic (Class III) or semi-automatic weapons? Is there a need for civilians to have armor piercing ammunition? Is there a need for civilians to have suppressors or silencers? I could have a room full of single shot guns… dozens of them, and not inflict the damage that a person with an automatic (or even, semi-automatic) gun could inflict the the space of 60 seconds. People who have been around guns for much of their lives know this… they just don’t want to say it.

  14. Duane Arnold says:

    #12 Xenia

    Our messages crossed.

  15. The New Victor says:

    Now I don’t feel as badly about having my son tell the principal about his classmate threatening them and wanting to destroy the school. I didn’t make the kids aware of this. Too much for too young. D5 started crying last night when she thought she couldn’t take her toys to heaven (we were talking about the differences between our life here and that to come).

  16. Xenia says:

    MLD, since the death penalty is determined on the state level, it would have to be made a federal law and that will never happen. In other words, it’s not a helpful suggestion, which is why no one has listened when you bring it up. It’s just kicking the can down the road because you are asking for something that will never happen and it’s just putting off doing something that might actually work. ( I am against the death penalty anyway.)

    Don’t vote for candidates that take NRA money. That’s something we can all do and if enough people do this, the politicians might become more scared of us than they are of the NRA.

  17. Xenia says:

    Make the NRA just as despised as the KKK.

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    What is your solution that will work that doesn’t involve Federal law or oversight?
    This is what happens – suggestion made (me) someone comes along and say “you can’t do that.” (you) – so nothing gets done.

    But that’s OK. But I am glad the objection wasn’t on civil rights grounds – just that it is too hard.

  19. John 20:29 says:

    Hooray for the granny who just turned in her grandson after finding evidence that he could be planning such an attack
    We had two boys in our “nice” neighborhood whose parents thought the highest and best of noble parenting was to stand up for their child, “it wasnt my child.” Both boys ended up in jail for serious crimes as adults.

  20. Xenia says:

    Well MLD, you get to work on a Federal death penalty law that will supersede all the state laws and I will get to work making sure no recipient of NRA money ever gets elected again.

  21. j2theperson says:

    I think part of the reason some people react so strongly against the idea of gun control even in the face of mass shootings is because if the government is able to successfully fiddle with and weaken the second amendment then it would give it more strength to fiddle with and weaken all the other rights listed in the Constitution. The argument can be made that the same people who want to ban guns want to force you by threat of fine and/or imprisonment to refer to individuals by the gender pronoun of their choice or to design a custom cake for a cause you find abhorrent or to provide abortifacients to others against your conscience. Giving up guns is just short hand for giving up freedom of speech or freedom of religion. That concern probably needs to be dealt with for any sort of substantial change on gun control to happen.

  22. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia – if your solution is to lobby for non NRA candidates, isn’t that so you can pass Federal laws to ban assault rifles? You and me together trying to change Federal Law.

  23. Xenia says:

    J2, the Constitution has been changed many times over the years. For instance, slavery is no longer legal.

  24. Xenia says:

    MLD, I don’t think either of us will succeed.

  25. j2theperson says:

    I understand that, but the people advocating for gun bans and such aren’t taking the steps they would need to take to change the Constitution legally. They just seem to want politicians to ban guns by passing a law. Go out there and convene a constitutional convention and repeal the 2nd amendment in an above board way. If politicians do it in a way that is perceived as underhanded then it will bring nothing but trouble.

  26. ( |o )====::: says:

    The issue with the 2nd Amendment is that The gun lobby & enthusiasts are misinterpreting the amendment.

    Automatic & semi-automatic weapons, bump stocks, silencers and huge clips are not required for this to be continued…

    “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

    The insecure, fearful and violent men who commit these mass murders have access to superior killing devices which the rest of the civilized countries have restricted from their average citizens.

    Seen elsewhere,

    “Isn’t it strange how mental illness hardly massacres anyone in Canada, Australia and the united kingdom?”

  27. Rick says:

    Xenia, could you name one NRA member who has been involved in a mass shooting other than to stop one? Equating the NRA with the kkk contradicts both charity and truth.

    The NRA has never acted as the paramilitary wing of a major political party; the kkk certainly has, at least regionally.

    Is assigning collective guilt a NT value? I missed, somehow, in my reading the words of Jesus, the imperative to judge and slander those we disagree with.

  28. Xenia says:

    No, they don’t do mass shootings, they just enable them.

  29. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia – if the NRA ceased operations tomorrow what do you really think would happen – would politician become honest?
    Would gun enthusiasts become less diligent?
    Would gun manufacturers close down? Would bad guys turn in their weapons?

    Do drunk driver’s with revoked driver’s licenses stop driving?

  30. John 20:29 says:

    Factoid perhaps…?
    The NRA backed the ban on bhmp stock modification, so who exactly is the probkem?
    We have a very peculiar set of elected lawmakers in D.C. At my house we are smelling a rat… why are so many rational Congressmen (generic) choosing to not run for re-ection?

  31. Jean says:

    #30,

    Let’s not engage in (or blindly pass on) bald faced lies in a Christian community in the service of the angel of light.

    https://www.nraila.org/articles/20171229/the-great-flood-of-2018

    There was a bill, and the NRA worked successfully to defeat it.

  32. Xenia says:

    I am bowing out of this conversation. It doesn’t matter what I say, so why say it.

  33. Jean says:

    I’m taking your advice Xenia.

  34. JoelG says:

    I’m listening, Xenia.

  35. Xenia says:

    Ok, thanks.

    🙂

  36. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am listening – doesn’t mean I agree, but I listen.

    But this is just a hot topic when something happens. People ignore the thousands killed each year with gun violence – this is why I am steady eddy here – death penalty to anyone, and their accomplice or co conspirator, using a gun in a crime.

    or, we can blame a lobby group.

  37. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia – it’s funny, my very first comment was that no one listens to what I say on this topic and you were the first one to agree and tell me why you don’t listen. 🙂

  38. John 20:29 says:

    Ahhh, Jean, bald faced lie? Which “angel of light” are you serving today? ?
    Perhaps you missed the fact that the bump stock ban was, as Congress often does, buried into a bill that included many other things that were unacceptable to the NRA and their membership

  39. John 20:29 says:

    Xenia, it matters very much what you say and you are one of the folk that Michael depends on to teach here…
    If any of us question, it only means that we are listening, eh? ?

  40. j2theperson says:

    ***The issue with the 2nd Amendment is that The gun lobby & enthusiasts are misinterpreting the amendment.***

    Be that as it may, their slippery slope fears still exist and are very real to them. There may be more people who want stronger gun regulation, but they do not want that with the same intensity that those who fear more gun regulation are opposed to it. In order to enact meaningful gun regulation you’re going to have to somehow decrease their fears or get enough people to be as passionate as them on but for regulation or some combination of those two things.

  41. Rick says:

    Xenia, it matters very much what you say–else I would not question. My disagreement with your thoughts and judgment on this topic does not mean I devalue who you are and so much of what I have gained from your conversation here.

  42. Michael says:

    Just for the record, since I’m getting mail…

    I’ve never been for draconian gun control and I’m not now.

    I am for reasonable common sense laws that do not affect peoples right to hunt or defend themselves if they choose.

    We need conversations to determine what works without regard to political obligations.

    Rick, I wish everyone discussed things with your spirit…

  43. John 20:29 says:

    Except for Jean accusing me of passing on bald faced lies and not serving an angel of light – LOL… I found these two threads off of yours and Xenia’s observations very informative and pretty civilized, Michael…
    Even though views differ ….

    But i am sorry that this is producing badgering Emails – you dont need or deseve the hassle

  44. Jean says:

    You are Em. Or, show all of us the NRA’s statement in unequivocal support of a bump stock ban.

    These events always bring out the true religion of people. It works like a dog whistle. They pay for their fetishes and idols with the children of their neighbors.

    But God reigns. The plague will either destroy the nation or bring us to repentance. Stay tuned.

  45. Duane Arnold says:

    Friends, the NRA last year had a $333 million budget. To say that they are neutral or simply representing their membership is disingenuous. They also represent gun manufacturers and distributors.

    In the US last year, we lost at least 15,000 people to gun violence of one sort or another. Since 1968, the first year that reports were made, over 1,515,000 gun related deaths occurred in the US. Since the founding of the US, we have lost over 1,396,000 in all of our wars.

    I would ask a question here. How many here have actually fired a semi-automatic weapon and witnessed first hand and seen its effects first hand? Most who answer this question in the affirmative, will be those who have served in the military. There is a reason for this in that these are military weapons made for one reason… the efficient delivery of fire power in a defined killing zone.

    I am not calling for the ban of all guns. There is, however, a point at which it is not a liberal position to say that there are weapons that should not be in the hands of a disaffected 19 year old.

  46. Michael says:

    I’m only going to say this once.

    When speaking to a pillar of this community such as Em, I strongly suggest it be done with respect.

    Period.

  47. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Duane, the NRA and their money still is not the issue. How much money from the NRA would it take for you to side with them? If you say no amount, then that shows my point.
    If a politician can be bought, he is bought because he is first corrupt.
    I have the same issue with all of the pro abortion lobbies that have bought so many politicians who continually vote to expand the killing fields of the unborn.
    Hey, whatcha gonna do?

  48. Duane Arnold says:

    “If a politician can be bought, he is bought because he is first corrupt.”

    First thing we have agreed upon in some time…

  49. John 20:29 says:

    I usually dont take such blatant baiting, Jean

    thehill.com/regulation/administration/354111-nra-gives-ground-on-bump-srocks

    and there are others that you can look up, if my link doesn’t work or you dont like the source. ?

  50. The New Victor says:

    G-Man: Anders Brevik, 8 people by bombs, 69 students by assault rifle in Norway.

    @45 Duane I think it’s onto something by banning semi-autos. Look to California to lead, especially if Gavin Newsom becomes governor. Given the scofflaw attitude towards the latest laws passed (the ’98 ban didn’t stop the San bernadino office shooting), which require destruction of pre-2000 +10rnd mags, it will be don’t ask don’t tell. A lot of rural sheriffs agree.

    I think there may be something to limiting under 21 from purchasing certain rifles to start.

    I’ve taken multiple defensive pistol classes and pistol-carbine, so yes, I’ve shot semi-autos plenty, in moving situations, not just at stationary targets. Since I live in California, we’re already under the strictest laws in the nation as a state.

  51. Jean says:

    #49,

    Anyone can read the hill.com article by googling the title. The nra does not call for a bump stock ban. In one place it said it supported additional regulation, which is undefined, and in another place called for a new study.

    Everyone knows that if the nra wanted them banned, they wouldn’t be legal today.

  52. John 20:29 says:

    It’s a siily side track, but the nra does not support the bump stock modification and has called on the BATFE to handle the problem…
    Either Jean is not as bright as i think he is or he’s cherry picking …

    Kind of like saying the Kennel Club is against animal shelters… ?

  53. Jean says:

    “Either Jean is not as bright as i think he is or he’s cherry picking …”

    I was not cherry picking. I read the article you tried to link up in #49.

  54. John 20:29 says:

    Jean, there are numerous articles that say the nra is not for bump stock modifications and this rabbit trail had me spending more time reading the subject tonight than i care to… 🙂
    you won’t like the source (the Washington Times Oct 24th):
    “NRA leaders have fought for years to keep their opponents from conflating the two, [semi automatic rifles] …..
    The bump stock, …, fudges the line between the two in a way that could significantly weaken the ability of the NRA and others to defend the semi-automatic.
    That’s no doubt why NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre suggested in his post-Las Vegas statement that a device such as the bump stock, which exists only to facilitate such a conversion, should be subject to the same regulations as the machine gun itself.
    • David A. Keene is editor at large at The Washington Times.”

    do you want to continue debating whether or not the nra is for bump stocks? i don’t
    God keep

  55. Jean says:

    Em,

    I’ve also read the articles. And I know that the nra has supported no actual legislation. Is there not one single senator whom the nra could lobby to introduce a bill? But of the one bill that was introduced, the nra was against. I am not so easily deceived by this group or its defenders.

  56. Jean says:

    “Answer hate with love; answer cruelty with kindness.”

    – Donald Trump, 2/15/2018

  57. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean had better not go up on Em’s mountain – she’ll shoot his butt. 😉

  58. Duane Arnold says:

    #56 Jean

    Actions speak louder than words… I can only assume you are being ironic.

  59. Jean says:

    Duane,

    When I heard and saw those words live yesterday, a few things crossed my mind.

    In the Pirates of the Caribbean series of movies, Captain Jack Sparrow, has a compass. What’s unique about this compass is that it always points, not to true north, but to what the owner most wants. That kind of compass is a nice prop for a movie comedy, but I’m not sure it’s any way to be guided in life or in any vocation.

  60. Duane Arnold says:

    For those who are interested, here is the Pew Research sure of the NRA. It makes for interesting reading.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/05/among-gun-owners-nra-members-have-a-unique-set-of-views-and-experiences/

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