Understanding the Q-Anon Connections

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94 Responses

  1. Jean says:

    When you look at common components of a religion: a belief system, faith, worship, symbols, divine revelation, prophecy and prophets, and a priesthood; Q-Anon IMO has the hallmarks of a religion, one that is hostile and subversive to Christianity.

  2. Michael says:

    Jean,

    If it’s not, it’s close enough to be concerned about…

  3. Jean says:

    Q-Anon members participated in the 1/6 insurrection, where they presented their bodies as living sacrifices, their spiritual worship.

  4. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    As with the Gnostics in the early Church, the myth-making will grow increasingly arcane and elaborate with the passing of time. Seeking new revelations, granted only to the “enlightened”, it becomes self-fulfilling prophecy hidden from the eyes of others who are not enlightened. It is not political theory… it is religion. As with the Gnostics, they use the language and symbols of Christianity, while at heart being totally opposed to Christianity itself.

  5. Michael says:

    The challenge for me is to address these things for what they are while still respecting and loving the people deceived by them.
    There are some good people who believe these lies…

  6. Wacky Wokeism says:

    I don’t know any Q-Anon members. It seems really fringe to me. However, I do see a much bigger belief system that appears to be a new religion called wokeism that has certain core beliefs that is pervasive. This new religion is a bigger threat to the church.

  7. Michael says:

    WW,

    It’s not helpful to address any issue with “yes, but this is worse”.

    It’s not helpful to put forth a label without defining what the beliefs are.

    Do better.

  8. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    It is always the problem that there are “good people who believe these lies…” Nevertheless, the lies remain lies unless we admit a syncretism that allows such lies to be held by those that we still regard as a brothers and sisters in faith. In my mind, there is a line that, once crossed, admits and permits something that is wholly “other” and destructive. It is not an easy call, but it is a call I believe we will have to make…

  9. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thank you Michael for this and thank you for your response to WW. This new “bogeyman” of Wokeism…kinda hypocritical when publications like the Christian Post are now littered with articles about how wokeism and liberalism are the death knell of the Church and America, all the while ignoring the 900lb gorilla in the room…conspiracy theories and Qanon. Qanon and conspiracy theories are practically ignored subjects by these Christian online publications, and even esteemed writers like Dr. Michael Brown pretty much think that those are not an issue.

    A while ago I posted a comment that stated that those who peddle these conspiracies and Qanon garbage are enemies of the Cross, and I stand by that assertion. IT IS A DISTRACTION TO THE GOSPEL.

    Why is it that (I would be money on this) that conspiracy theorists and Qanon followers are mostly likely conservatives and call themselves Christians?

  10. Kevin H says:

    Michael,

    I too am mind boggled by just how many people have taken to QAnon. When one sits from the outside and looks at their core claims, one would think that only crazy and deranged people would believe such things, especially as there has never been a shred of direct evidence for any of the core beliefs, only presumptions, insinuations, guilt by associations, and utmost trust in cryptic messages and anonymous sources.

    And yet, there are so many people who buy into it to one degree or another. Many who may not even claim adherence to QAnon but yet espouse some if not many of their beliefs. And grievously, it is seemingly more Christians than anybody else who are entrapped.

    I, too, really don’t know how to best address these things with people who are caught up in the beliefs. Seemingly anything that you say for which they don’t have good answers for is just written off as being part of the conspiracy. You become part of the conspiracy yourself (or are brainwashed by those carrying out the conspiracies) and there is nothing you can do or say to counter their beliefs that it must be “them” (government, deep state, democrats, mainstream media, entertainment business, etc.) who are carrying out these evil deeds and conspiracies.

  11. Kevin H says:

    Significant surveys showing that 15% of Americans hold to these beliefs show that QAnon can no longer be dismissed as just a few random nutcases on the fringe for which we should not be concerned.

  12. CM says:

    And that 15% will become the future brownshirts for a more competent Il Duce wannabee than the previous Orange Dear Leader POTUS.

  13. Nathan Priddis says:

    This is where I say Qanon = Blood Libel.
    But an adjustment has been made by It’s promoters. The word “Jew” has been substituted with “pedophile”. Pre-Mill Dispensationism will not accept Jew hatred. The promoters know this, and so therefore, they’re called pediphiles. Afterall, who doesn’t hate pediphiles?

    I don’t believe I’m creating a strawman at all. Qanon in my mind is a direct equivalency to a Blood Libel, pound gor pound.

    Where I draw a distinction is on of objectives. A Libel of the Late Middle Ages had limited goals beyond attacking Jews.
    Qanon seeks a synthetic Church. The resources and numbers of the Church, melded with violent doctrines of demons.

    A spiritual army is being created.

  14. Wacky Wokeism says:

    I only speak from personal experience. Don’t know a single Q-Anon supporter and the definition given here is a first for me seeing. Woke us everywhere. Here is a link on Wokeism. https://www.convergemedia.org/wokeism-the-new-religion-of-the-west/

  15. CM says:

    Nathan,

    You are on the money there. Take the old anti-Semitic Blood Libel conspiracies from the Middles Ages and repackage them. Throw-in the old 1970s and 1980s Satanic Panic hysteria (think Mike Warnke) and mix in a generous helping spirituality and religious verbiage. And the cherry on top is their Messianic figure to fight and defeat this cabal – Donald Trump.

  16. Duane Arnold says:

    Speaking of Q-Anon:

    “If it were a religion, it would be as big as all white evangelical Protestants, or all white mainline Protestants.”
    Robby Jones, PRRI

  17. Nathan Priddis says:

    Rupert Murdoch was the forerunner. The voice crying from the (Australian) wilderness. A prophet who cometh bearing locust..honey…and Britain’s best big breast-ed Page Three Girls.

    Murdoch is an infiltrator in the Body of Christ. Fox has more influence than Scripture. Post Qanon, Fox will just shift it’s position further Right to counter any emerging online competition for it’s audience.

  18. bob1 says:

    15 percent of Americans believe central QAnon theory: poll

    That’s more than several major religions.

    thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/555699-15-percent-of-americans-believe-central-qanon-theory-poll

    “You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynihan

  19. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Ed Stetzer, executive director of the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College, has noted that distrust of mainstream news sources “can feed a penchant for conspiracy theories.” The distrust of mainstream news, and the rejection of science, has become so acute among some Christians that it has led to a plea from prominent Christian thinkers titled “A Christian Statement on Science for Pandemic Times.”

    _________________________________

    That was taken from the church and culture article Michael Linked to. Put this into context almost a year ago that in the thick of the pandemic when clear headed voices were asking about the origins of COVID. Any mention that it could have started from a Wuhan lab leak in China was labeled lunatic far right racist anti science and if I look hard enough I might even find Q-Anon inspired. Dr. Fauci was the sage that couldn’t be wrong. Face book censored posts even mentioning the lab leak theory until this past week. The wet market theory apparently was where all the science pointed. Unfortunately it was all lies and little to no science ever supported the wet market theory. So actually the anti science crowd is coming from a much larger pervasive meta narrative. Curious what will be in the UFO report set to be released to the public in a week or so.

  20. Nathan Priddis says:

    Bob. I think it may be higher than 15% if partial belief is included, and the person doesn’t know the source of the ideas they hold. Qanon belief among Evangelicals, I’m guessing 50%.

    When it comes to Fox, my guess is an overwhelming percentage of Evangelicals are influenced directly or second hand, by Fox.

    -It’s hypocrisy for Christians to believe Trumpism is a war against a Satanic cabal of Hollywood elites…
    ..And then follow Fox, founded as a subsidiary of News Corp.. porn publisher for many years.
    ..And founded by Murdoch and a guy named Diller…a definite Hollywood elite, a reported openly homosexual man.
    ..Nor does it seem to be an issue that Thomas Nelson and Zondervan both are owned by said porn publisher, News Corp.

    At this point, my immediate question is why Qanon has not been exposed? The Qanon conspiracy wing began to perl away Fox viewers, why did Fox not choose to undermine credibility of it’s new rivals?

  21. Michael says:

    Wacky,

    What you keep offering seems to be based on the belief that attacking Q Anon is attacking “conservative ” values, therefore you must present “liberal” aberrations to defend it.

    It’s embarrassing, to be frank.

    Q Anon has nothing to do with traditional conservatism…it is a lies based scam that draws in vulnerable people and and leaves them deceived… or worse,

    CRT has become the philosophical equivalent of border issues….create a crisis where there is none to distract and inflame people.

    CRT and it’s philosophical fellow travelers cannot and will not work long term in the larger population. It defines a lot of problems…some real, some not so much…but has no redemptive solutions.

    It is not a threat to churches that actually preach the Gospel and biblical justice.

    Somehow, you managed to slip the pandemic in here…how that is woke is beyond me.

  22. Nathan Priddis says:

    Wacky.
    Part of my upbringing was related to Gothardism.

    If I “woke up”…and realized that my history curriculum contained virtually no mention of Southern history, slavery or racism..does that make me..Woke, Cultural Marxist, Liberal, Leftist, Atheist, Radical or Communists, Post Modern, Cancel Culture?

  23. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    I’m going to chalk this up to middle age but back when I was a kid growing up in the Willamette Valley I remember the GOP had room for a Mark Hatfield Republican. It seems, more and more, that since the end of the Cold War but especially since 9/11 and the Gulf War 2 and the War on Terror, that the GOP has lurched so far to the right that someone like Hatfield couldn’t have found a place in the party. I suppose it’s equally true, given his stance on abortion, the DNC wouldn’t welcome him either. If people redefine “conservative” so far to the right there’s no room for a Hatfield then I say they’re not conservatives, they’re reactionaries.

  24. Michael says:

    WTH,

    My state was blessed with a succession of great and noble politicians like Hatfield, Wayne Morse, and Tom McCall. None of them would recognize the current state of things as anything but a disaster…

  25. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    indeed!

  26. Duane Arnold says:

    Walter Martin always said that cults represented “the unpaid bills of the Church”. That is, people would often chase after a cult in reaction to what the Church was, or was not, doing or teaching. I’m wondering what Q-Anon is offering that makes it so attractive to so many Christians (or former Christians). What is it? A sense of belonging? Mistrust of leaders? A theology of violence (like the Crusades)? Or have they followed so-called prophecies given by so-called prophets to their logical end?

  27. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Honestly, I think most of what we discussing here is reactionary. I don’t know much about Q-Anon but it seems to be an over reaction for some to secularism and the fruits of a godless society becoming mainstream in every aspect of society. Q-Anon though seems to be centered on Trump which makes it inherently political. The hatred of Trump that has been expressed here goes without say. He has been called unapologetically, “Satan incarnate”. This is reactionary and to actually believe that Trump is Satan incarnate in my estimation is just as dangerous as believing that he is some kind if a prophet that will save the world of the evil pedophiles. It’s all reactionary and it all has undertones of religiosity. But as I stated before I don’t know anyone personally that views Donald as a prophet that Q-Anon believes. But there are some that seems to be trying to equate big tent Conservative white evangelicals trump voters as QAnon sympathizers. I don’t get that and it’s just more identity politics being more reactionary puzzled that any Christian could possibly vote for Trump . Can you be a Trump voter and not be a QAnon sympather or are they in separately linked?

  28. Michael says:

    There certainly are Trump voters who don’t believe the Q crap, but all Q believers are Trump believers as well.
    It’s not reactionary to be disturbed that a quarter of the largest Christian group believe outrageous lies that ruin a Gospel witness.

  29. Michael says:

    I’ve never said that Trump was Satan incarnate…I said and say again that he was and is an anti-Christ…

  30. Nathan Priddis says:

    Wacky. What your saying about Q being an overreaction to declining religious adherence is totally illogical.

    If the church down the street is declining in attendance, it’s not because a global network of Jews are raping children and drinking bodily fluids.

    Why does Satan need bodily fluids anyway?
    And if so, couldn’t he just get his own fluids and really young sex partners?
    How does really young sex help Jews take over the World?
    Aren’t Jews supposed to take over through banking?
    How come it’s taking so many centuries for those Jews to take over?
    What is taking over mean?
    If Satan is the god if this World, The Prince of the Power of the air, why does he even need Jews, banks , Holly Weird Stars, vaccines, the Five Gees and extremely young sex, to take over the World he already runs?
    How does Donald Trump secure the Kingdom of God?
    If the Scriptures gave us all that pertains to life and godliness, why do we need Q?

  31. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Nathan,. I don’t know anything what you are talking about. Guess I need to read up on QAnon. Proves my point. I bet the average Trump voting white evangelical that is being lumped into the QAnon thing doesn’t know either.

  32. Jean says:

    WW,
    Your comment reminds me of another reader who used to be very active here. Michael has provided reporting and statistics that QAnon has a large following among Trump supporters, and conservative Christians. What you know or what those in your circle know is irrelevant. Millions of Americans believe the lies.

  33. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Jean, I find these stats quite interesting but also not convincing as stats are based on polls that can easily be manipulated. I distinctly remember all the polling before the election gave Clinton a substantially larger win over Trump than what transpired. The polls obviously were skewed.
    The same thing happened again with Biden. The numbers weren’t even close to the actual election results which was very close. I’ll give this to you that if Millions of folks believe what Nathan described and they are professing Christians in our church, we do have a huge problem. However, I’m having a hard time believing that narrative is accurate. We obviously have huge problems in our churches, but never contemplated until now that QAnon is the biggest problem.

  34. Nathan Priddis says:

    WW.
    Blood Libel- Very real, involved blood, originated in England 1200’s, continued until 1900’s. Google it.

    BLM- Emerged as a decendent of the Civil Rights Movement, which emerged out the NAACP. A direct link to the founding of the NAACP in 1909 traces to one of the last Blood Libels, in Kishinev, Russia 1909.

    This not an approved Christian Worldview and likely confusing, but here is a condensed take-away: ..I will curse those who curse you…

    Here’s a non-Evangelical quote. Please note, when the author mentions “American radicals” he means Jews and Blacks tired of getting lynched.

    …”What was the Kishinev pogrom and its impact?

    The Kishinev pogrom was an anti-Jewish massacre that occurred over the course of a day and a half on April 19 and 20, 1903, in the imperial Russia’s city of Kishinev, now known as Chisinau, the capital of Moldova. Forty-nine Jews died, and hundreds were wounded and raped as a result of the riot, which was prompted by longstanding rumors, dating back as far as the 12th or 13th centuries, that Jews used Christian blood for ritual purposes.

    A combination of factors ended up making Kishinev into the history it became. It was the first major anti-Jewish riot at the beginning of the 20th century, and it’s the first Jewish tragedy that gets photographed, appearing prominently in newspapers around the world.

    As a result, the riot ends up having international ramifications. For example, the Haganah, a Jewish paramilitary organization that became the core of the Israeli army, was created largely in reaction to the Kishinev pogrom.

    American Jewish radicals also drew a direct connection between the pogroms in Russia and lynching in the American South and the anti-black riots in the American North. And Kishinev ended up being a direct precursor to the founding of National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), founded in 1909.”…
    https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2018/04/23/separating-fact-myth-1903-anti-jewish-riot/

  35. Nathan Priddis says:

    Oops. Russia 1903.

  36. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Nathan, I’m thoroughly confused now. I thought we were talking about QAnon that was started in 2017. Are you saying millions of Christians in our churches believe QAnon that is directly linked to events in 1909? This is the most insane thing I have ever heard.

  37. Nathan Priddis says:

    You didn’t follow what was being said.

    A Blood Libel is a Blood Libel regardless of what century it occurs, regardless of whether it’s 1200’s England, 1903 Russia or online in 2017.
    A Libel always involves accusations of blood used for Satanic rituals. And, always by a secret network of Jews plotting against God, and Christendom.
    A Libel always involves accusations of children being abducted for collection of their blood. It’s never 80 year old men from assisted living.
    A Libel is always directed at Christian devotees and appeals to their sense of faith in crisis.

    Global Cobal = Jews
    Hollywood elites = Jews
    Cultural Marxist =Jews
    Pedophile = Jews
    The only difference from 1903 and 2017, is Jew can’t be used directly, only indirect euphemisms.

    Of course Christians will buy into Libels and conspiracy theories! Russian Christians for centuries, German Christians for centuries, and American Christians. You do understand that Protestantism is generally ill favored towards Jews?

    A favorable view of Jews really only came about with the invention of Pre-Mill Dispensationism in the 1800’s.

  38. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Nathan. QAnon is strange but this is stranger than fiction and a first for me hearing anybody connecting blood libel to QAnon and making the leap to Rupert Murdoch, then fox news which has the attention of conservatives. I don’t know what to say.

  39. Nathan Priddis says:

    Wacky.
    You have Google. You have old school libraries, and publishers of Christian History. You even have access to a Bible no less.

    Your Scriptures will tell you….this is my beloved Son, hear him. But since circa 1998, Christians began to listen to Murdoch, a non Christian. None could identify the oddity of a porn publisher, selecting what Christian books he would publish. Or, that it’s odd a Christian Worldview is sourced from a non-Christian.

    It’s not difficult to see how after a few decades, Christians have something wrong with them called Cognitive Dissonance. A lack of ability to recognize conflicting beliefs, or that they can’t identity right from wrong, lies from facts. They’ll believe in a Satanic cabal of Pedophiles.

    You appear to have the same issues. Go read a Bible, you’ll start to notice warnings about deception. There is no Messiah waging a secret war on child sex.

  40. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Nathan,. For goodness sakes, your not really asking me to read the Bible. Your asking me to Google about blood libel and start making insane conclusions all so that I can denounce QAnon and trash fox news all at the same time basically insinuating its all about antisemitism which fits with an anti Trump narrative equating Trump with Hitler. I need time to process this. Can I ask you a question? Are you a dispensationalist?

  41. Nathan Priddis says:

    No.
    Are you?

  42. Wacky Wokeism says:

    No. Dispensationalism too wacky for me.

  43. Duane Arnold says:

    On Q-Anon from the Combatting Terrorism Center at West Point with full documentation and case studies:
    https://ctc.usma.edu/the-qanon-conspiracy-theory-a-security-threat-in-the-making/

  44. bob1 says:

    I know social media has played an outsized role in fostering paranoia (which is also heighted awareness 🙂 ) and ridiculous conspiracy theories thatgnaw at our democracy and democratic institutions.

    But to be fair, they can also be a blessing. This recent article states that QAnoners have basically evaporated on social media since the Jan. 6 insurrection. That’s good news!

    QAnon content “evaporated” online following post-Jan. 6 social media crackdown, study finds

    https://www.salon.com/2021/05/27/qanon-content-evaporated-online-following-post-jan-6-social-media-crackdown-study-finds/

  45. Jean says:

    bob1, I can’t fault the media. I fault Trump supporters and the GOP, which, except for a small number of courageous truth tellers, goes right along with him.

    Look, just this month in the State of Arizona, the GOP led partisan recount and ballot examination, were testing the paper ballots for traces of bamboo!

    Why? Because a conspiracy theorist claimed Biden votes were shipped into Arizona from Asia.

    That’s where we’re at today. Not a fringe, not a small few, but majorities in a major political party are buying into horse manure.

  46. Wacky Wokeism says:

    So, just as I thought, it’s not really about QAnon, it’s all about Trump and anyone who voted for him. Thanks for clarifying Jean.

  47. Michael says:

    WW,

    I have many friends who voted for Trump…I would never accuse them of believing such nonsense.
    That doesn’t change the fact that all Q people are Trump people and their numbers are growing.

  48. Jean says:

    QAnon is an intrinsically political movement. It was created with Trump as the hero and Democratic elites as the evil cabal, whom the hero is fighting against. One cannot understand it isolated from its political context.

  49. bob1 says:

    Jean,

    I understand where you’re coming from I really do.

    I guess with me lately, I just feel sorry for those who’ve gotten caught up in this hogwash. It’s a full-blown cult. I realized that after watching 2 or 3 interviews with ex-QAnoners. The deception runs deep. We really should be praying for them.

  50. Jean says:

    bob1,

    Since I don’t get out much, I must ask, when did Christians start becoming Cristian diet gurus?

  51. Nathan Priddis says:

    I don’t see any option but to say a spiritual deception, conducted by spirits, is underway. The groundwork of preparing North American Evangelicals for Q belief can be traced back decades. Prior preparation doesn’t explain the rapidity, the rabidness or the irrational inability to question the conspiracies.

    I go back to the Parable of the Tares and the angels being sent into the field. One would logically react by saying Hod can not be party to Evil. But we know he sends evil as punishment on multiple occasions, in times past.

    ..”He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them..”..

  52. Wacky Wokeism says:

    So let me understand this. All QAnon supporters are Donald trump supporters but a very small minority of Trump supporters reject QAnon. Online QAnon on social media has basically evaporated. However, QAnon supporters continue to grow siting this latest poll. What is not clear to me is, can someone reject QAnon outright, support Donald Trump and still feel something very unfair took place during the election? I think there are more if these folks than anyone else. It appears those pushing election integrity are being lumped into QAnon. Whether you agree with these folks, does the very fact one question the integrity of the election make one synonymous with QAnon? This is a common ploy in politics. Identify a minority far out fringe group, then try to mainstream them into the political opposing party, them demonize the entire group and then finally discredit your political rival.

  53. Duane Arnold says:

    “still feel something very unfair took place during the election…”

    It’s not about feelings. It’s about facts.

  54. Michael says:

    “That which is explained can be denied, but that which is felt cannot be forgotten”.

  55. Michael says:

    “So let me understand this. All QAnon supporters are Donald trump supporters but a very small minority of Trump supporters reject QAnon. ”

    No one said that. We posted the actual numbers multiple times.

    “This is a common ploy in politics. Identify a minority far out fringe group, then try to mainstream them into the political opposing party,”

    A Number of Q sympathizers were elected to the House by the GOP…

  56. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Duane,. unfortunately facts often time get skewed, changed, manipulated and hard to discern and this past election is no exception. I think most in GOP accept the outcome conditional that mitigation controls be in place to give more confidence to these facts. This is precisely why many in the GOP want to prevent anything like like this happening again with emphasizing election integrity and it’s unfortunate most if not all democrats oppose these measures always citing voter suppression as the reason. By why does this concern have to be juxtaposed to QAnon?

  57. Duane Arnold says:

    Multiple audits of close races, over 60 cases in state and federal courts (many before Republican appointed judges). Facts are better than feelings…

  58. Jean says:

    “This is precisely why many in the GOP want to prevent anything like like this happening again”

    Here’s how you do it: The next time your candidate, before the election takes place, say the only way he can lose is if the Democrats steal the election, rebuke him publicly; the next time he says the election is rigged, publicly rebuke him; the next time he says mail in voting is corrupt or a scam, publicly rebuke him; the next time he claims victory before all the votes are counted, which number could easily change the result, publicly rebuke him.

    The whole election confidence issue is a made up, fabricated, fictitious, issue. Election laws are not made to to address the make believe.

  59. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Jean, none of what you are saying is a QAnon specific concern. Unless you are expanding your definition of a QAnon sympathizer to now include all those wanting election integrity controls implemented and enforced by law opposed to mob rule public rebuke.

  60. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Duane, facts are better than feelings. I support more and more facts seeing the light of day someday.

  61. Michael says:

    There are election controls already and they worked well.

  62. Duane Arnold says:

    There were the opportunities to present facts in over 60 state and federal courtrooms as sworn officers of the court. No meritorious facts were presented…

    Now, a bi-partisan 1/6 commission might unearth more facts… but, apparently, a minority of members in the US Senate are reluctant…

  63. Michael says:

    As is usual here, we can’t see the forest for the trees.
    The issue being raised is one of truth…we have a large group of people who have chosen to believe outrageous lies and want governance based on such.
    Politically, I don’t much care, the empire is in peril in any current hands.
    My main concern is that these outrageous lies have been spread and baptized in the church.

  64. Nathan Priddis says:

    WW. You don’t strike me as an avid reader. How about video?
    First…the concept of children being kidnapped for blood, a brief intro to Libels:https://youtu.be/FzhlDlRNE-M

    If “wokeism” is so vital, why are you not curious what information people are claiming to have woke to?

    The origin of the American portion of the Civil Rights Movement. Black believer:
    https://youtu.be/yq42jOecg8w

  65. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    Certain elements of the religious community (I choose not to call it “church”) have elevated the lies to points of faith. This is very simply religious syncretism, similar to Santeria or other folk-religions.

  66. Michael says:

    Duane,

    Agreed…

  67. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Nathan, Michael already addressed CRT. It really has no place in the church, however it is the prevalent philosophy of the day. Michael is right that if the gospel is preached, there is no concern. My issue is I see many churches adopting a different gospel that incorporates CRT

  68. Michael says:

    I’m pretty locked in to church trends…and I couldn’t name one that has “embraced” CRT.
    I know hundreds that are preaching some form of Christian nationalism.
    In fact I know very few people outside of social media enclaves and certain academics that can even define CRT.

    Now, many of us acknowledge that there is systemic racism in this country without holding to an arcane ideology that expands on the basic facts historical and current.

  69. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Michael, the entire SBC was debating the issue of CRT so it’s not like this is not out there.

  70. Michael says:

    WW,

    Debating a social issue and bringing it into the church and compromising the Gospel are two different things.
    There are a number of SBC political conservatives that are attempting to make the denomination a hotbed of nationalism and are using CRT as a bogeyman to do so.
    I am not a proponent of CRT…but opposition to it is being used to keep real conversations about racial and social equity from happening.

  71. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Michael, racial equity not to be confused with equality is a cornerstone of crt.

  72. Nathan Priddis says:

    WW. Now it’s my turn to be confused. But, never mind.

    Do you attend a church, and if so, what kind?
    Do you have some theological influences or personalities you follow?
    Can you discribe the how and when, of Woke and CRT being a crisis?
    How did you respond when you first heard of Qanon’ theories of a Satanic cabal and secret war?

  73. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Nathan. I have gone to many churches and not one has embraced systemic racism, from Baptist Presbyterian and Pentecostal, however with a general tendency for churches to become syncretism with prevailing culture, it seems now many folks are being labeled racist if they are white. I acknowledge Christian nationalism as a heresy but still getting up to speed on QAnon.

  74. Michael says:

    ‘it seems now many folks are being labeled racist if they are white.”
    This is Tucker Carlson’s greatest hits.
    WW comes on a thread about a specific movement , tells us he knows nothing about it, then turns it into a commercial for every right wing whack jobs news feed.
    Why?
    Why…if you claim ignorance do not ask questions and learn?
    Why…does everything come down to defending a vote for Trump…when no defense was called for?
    I said before…I have many friends who voted for Trump for reasons of financial and trade issues.
    I have no quarrel with that.
    This thread was about the descent of a significant group of Christians who are being deceived and deceiving because of a brilliant lie that has fostered many more lies.
    We should be concerned.

    I have repeatedly said that CRT is not supported here.
    There are good reasons not to embrace it…none of them have been explained by the one so worried about it.
    I guess I have to inform him of that too.
    This level of discussion is abysmal.

  75. Wacky Wokeism says:

    Michael, I’ve asked many questions here. Some answered, some not. I’ve learned some from you and others here. But enough said, I’ll leave in peace.

  76. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    I glanced through the thread which, I assumed, was about Q-Anon.

    Rather than discussing that it became “What about…?”

    What about wokeism?
    What about mainstream news?
    What about Fauci?
    What about being a Trump voter?
    What about the election?
    What about CRT?

    You’re correct, although I’m not sure this even qualifies as a “discussion”.

  77. Michael says:

    Duane,

    This is why I think we’re doomed as a country…the real issues are always buried under a truckload of bull…

  78. Michael says:

    So…for the casual reader who may actually want to know why I don’t embrace CRT…

    CRT is simply another in an endless series of ideologies that seek to highlight the sins of culture.
    There are sins to be noted for sure.
    They are, in a way, secular mirrors of religious systems.
    The problem with all of them is that after the sin is exposed and “atonement” made, there is no mechanism for redemption .
    Thus, there can never be any progress from sinful to sanctified, only a constant reminder of sins and endless atonement.
    It becomes a tool of oppression in its self.
    You’re welcome.

  79. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    Reading my notes from Athanasius’ ‘Historia Arianorum’. He wrote the treatise when it looked like the Arians might win the day. The Arians were political and counted on the power of the state to back them. In response Athanasius wrote, “the truth is not preached with swords or spears, nor by means of soldiers, but by persuasion and gentle counsel” (33) Later he simply said that “it is the true part of godliness not to compel but to persuade…” (67)

    Some of these old guys have something to teach us! 😁

  80. Michael says:

    Duane,

    Maybe we should start over from the beginning…

  81. Em says:

    OR ….. 😇
    We could just accept that God is an absolute – holy without compromise and we humans are dependent on His grace and mercy – no wiggle room for our “goodness.”
    Errr somethin like that …..
    God keep us and edify us

  82. pstrmike says:

    “it is the true part of godliness not to compel but to persuade…”

    It seems the church has trouble accepting this truth. I think some of the desire to compel people rather than persuading them is that they are not well learned in the truth of the faith, and therefore resort to some type of strong-arm tactic in lieu of a well reasoned exposition of the faith.

  83. Duane Arnold says:

    pstrmike

    Slogans and strong arm tactics are so much easier than “a well reasoned exposition of the faith”…

  84. bob1 says:

    Slogans and strong arm tactics are so much easier than “a well reasoned exposition of the faith”…

    I’d just add that slogans and strong arm tactics are not only easier, but appear — and I stress appear — to have quicker results.

    Not much anymore in our culture.

  85. DH says:

    Pretty sure Q used to post comments here.

  86. CM says:

    Duane,

    Athanasius Contra Mundum

  87. Kevin H says:

    DH,

    There was somebody here years ago who used to post under the moniker “Q”. I highly doubt it’s the same character. But from what I remember, the “Q” here was quite the troublemaker, so I guess you never know. 🙂

  88. CM says:

    Michael regarding your comment @10:46 AM (5/31):

    Your description of CRT reminds of me of the political/culture analog to first part Hebrews Chapter 10.

  89. Michael says:

    Different Q…ours was not nearly as bright…

  90. Nathan Priddis says:

    I remember a sort of proto-Q. It was roughly 2015-16, well prior to Election Day. My wife showed me a story circulating in Christian female FB. It claimed massive child trafficking in SW Oregon.

    It was fake but not anonymous. It traced back to done online influencer in London. I Googled him and apparently he was catching flak for Pro-Kremlin online postings in the UK. My takeaway: it was intended to cause agitation. I don’t recall any connection to political action, mearly agitation of easily agitated demographic groups.

  91. CM says:

    Nathan,

    Before that one in 2015 and 2016, there was the Satanic Panic of the 1970’s and 1980’s.

    It was a proto-QAnon before Q’s addition of Donald Trump as LORD, God, and Savior.

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