Well, what sayest thou? At first reading, it sounds good…. time will tell.
Like this comments of Brian’s :
“Confusing the United States of America with the church is part of the problem.” so agree.
Also like the comment about “the mission field is coming to us”…. yes.
Immigration is a huge issue in SoCal….
I feel his comments on both Muslims and Gays are thoughtful and not canned. IMO
I am not one who was burned per se by CCCM, (but by a local ‘branch’.) I have some issues with some of the typical CC stuff, but Brian’s comments give me hope that at least some change is possible…..as if my opinion about anything is of any value to anyone. 🙂
I think that this was a good article but it was a bit light in terms of the issues that concern people. I for one like Brian and I think that he would have handled the difficult questions just fine.
“The Calvary Chapel movement is known for the so-called Moses’ model of leadership. Is this as prevalent as some say?
It’s exaggerated by people on the outside and by the disgruntled. At Calvary, Chuck Smith was the senior pastor and operated as a person who believed God called and guided him. Coming out of the denominations as he did, he didn’t want to have his hands tied. The Moses model that you find at Calvary is Chuck’s way of explaining leadership. It’s certainly not a required model. People do not understand that, even people within Calvary Chapel itself who say, “Well, we’ve got to do our church government like this, right?”
I disagree MLD, as RiBo put it they were softball questions. Why not ask about new reforms toward discipline for rogue pastor’s? Why not ask about what direction the leadership is headed especially in light of Bryson being “set free”? How does Brian see changes going forward with transparency in financial reporting etc? These are not just questions that I have and I think that Brian would have answered these types of questions with no problem and may even have considered these types of questions as an opportunity. Again, I don’t hate CC and I think that Brian is a man who isn’t a “man pleaser”.
covered,
So what do you think CT’s motive was for writing a fluff piece? I say it is to sell magazines and that the readership of CT as I said earlier knows nothing of church problems and issues – they want fluff and demand fluff.
So, I stick by my comment – the questions you want asked are not the one’s that the CT readership wants asked.
Chuck’s way of explaining of leadership + the Moses model = The model of leadership as modeled by Chuck and passed on to all those who follow the CC model of ministry.
While it wasn’t the ONLY way to do leadership, you cannot say that any other way was modeled or appreciated. Every other form of leadership was downpplayed. Only the Moses model was held up as the way to lead a church.
Papias, You made an incomplete quote. I added the missing part. I assumed it was an oversight on your part since it does require a 2nd click to find it (poor formatting by the CT guys)
As to my 2nd post – I am saying NOTHING more than what Michael has said multiple times around here. The title is poor, but the model is not new at all, nor unique with Chuck.
MLD, I mean no disrespect to such an elderly man as yourselt but you are mistaken 🙂 If you google “Chuck Smith said touch not God’s annointed” you will see that it was CT magazine who CS was being interviewed by. CT is well aware of the issues within CC and they had an opportunity to either ask the hard questions or give BB a pass and they did the latter. But again, I think that BB would have done well if given the opportunity.
I agree MLD. I also think that it was a missed opportunity for both. My point is that CT is aware of some of the issues and there are many more people than myself who would like to see changes toward reform.
Softball questions were probably due to the last time CT interviewed PC, and he gave the statement:
“During the investigation for this article, Smith cautioned CT’s reporter: “The Lord warns, ‘Don’t touch my anointed. Do my prophet no harm.’ I think that you are trying to do harm to the work of God. I surely wouldn’t want to be in your shoes.”
Some of you guys just want blood as usual. The article specifically links to the Rob Moll article from 2007, while mentioning again the movement’s history of scandals and lawsuits.
You find me a media outlet in this world that is doing a so-called “puff piece” and finds it necessary to link to a 7-year-old critical article by an entirely different author. You think when the Post writes a fluff piece about Obama they link to old O’Reilly or Krauthammer columns?
The discerning reader of both will note that in those 7 years the iceberg apparently spawned another 200 churches (15 percent growth)
I do like the idea that since Brian is new and looking to find his way maybe it’s okay to not go too hard on him. Maybe later they do a follow-up and go that route. Just a thought.
It will be refreshing to watch Brian lead Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa in the way that God tells him, being the senior pastor whom God appointed through the laying on of hands by Chuck SmithSr. If Brian dares have Rick Warren drop by it’s surely a sign from God of fresh fire 😉
My comments;
75% bull hockey.
First, it offers up Brodersen as the new leader of the movement.
Ain’t gonna happen.
The CCA is split 21 ways and is hardly functional.
The Moses Model was published and exposited at length as the Calvary way, not just Chuck’s way.
Last, I have a pile of stuff getting larger by the day that says Brodersen may be the new manager at Home Depot by this time next year.
Steve, I hope that your blood comment wasn’t directed at me who also happens to be the one who brought the 2007 piece up in rebuttal to something that MLD said. If your comment was directed at me, you need to go back and read everything that I posted.
The Moses Model was published and exposited at length as the Calvary way, not just Chuck’s way.
————————————————————-
Yes, and you yourself Michael have written over and over that it was a stupid term to describe a common form of church government that certainly was not original or unique to either Chuck Smith or Calvary Chapel.
CC does own the term…a dumb term…a term now jettisoned for the most part. Thankfully.
So, would the congregation of CCCM be in disobedience to The Moses Model pastor that God has appointed over them, or would Brian be in disobedience to God for reforming CCCM’s community according to what Brian believes God is leading him to do?
Yep, this will be a great song for The Spin Doctors, “Two Princes”
This one wants to being you flowers…
This one wants to talk for hours…
My issue is that Brodersen was trying to make it sound as if it’s been an optional part of the movement…when I first started CC guys would come on by the dozens to defend it.
It was the Calvary way.
I hope it’s gone for good.
Basically Broderson is sitting in a seat that many aspire and few succeed. Following an icon is a fool’s errand in most instances. Sometimes there is a ‘son’ who gets an even greater name than the father but that is pretty much reserved for Jesus.
One thing that ChuckSr never anticipated is that he would die before TheRapture.
The Distinctives that ChuckSr used made no room for succession, and that’s a fatal flaw of TheMovement. It, sadly, denies the reality that every person dies and how we prepare for that and how we prepare our family for that says everything about our grasp of reality.
I agree it is dumb. But it not just a term. Its a philosophical model of church government explained in the distinctives of which Calvary Chapel based affiliation on. Maybe the term is no longer used but not sure what has changed philosophically. It seems affiliation is determined regionally by the leader in that region from the 21 elite pastor panel in CCA.
Overall good article by Brian. Whether you agree or disagree with the plan of succession, a modified 21 man elder led movement was created but with “pastor led” independent churches at the local level. Blessed to know now our Brother Brian mentioned that an elder led local church is not incompatible model in order to be in fellowship with the movement. This said whether we are “Moses led” or plural elder led, only Christ occupies the throne, not man.
Please forgive me, it has been an awful day and a frustrating experience. But the article, Gag, I mean in any other industry this type of nonsense would not even rank a blurp in the local tabloid. I dont mean this against Pastor Brian personally but man they take themselves so seriously with all this deep penetrating “thought”. I still remember the twaddle Pastor Chuck regurgitated at Lonnie Frisbee’s memorial service, talk about gall, and people say Im proud and arrogant. I could not hold a candle to some of these guys with the flowered shirts at the “profit (cies)” conferences thinking the Jesuits were coming to take us away and other such complete unmitigated nonsense. They hock their books and dvds until the next invented “crisis”. GAG. I am not reacting just to the article and like I said this is emotionally driven but I grow tired of it. I mean when I first saw Doug Phillips of vision forum fame I thought, I mean this two minutes into his shtick, Tool. In fact we needed to add a wing onto the tool shed for this guy, same with Gothard, Bob Lar$on etc. I mean these guys are given a pass on so many levels and still rake in the dough. I mean we have a real pastor running this blog and other real pastors like, yes Steve Wright etc doing the work of the Lord and yet the clown car evangelists are the ones that keep running us into the gutter. Again not directed at Pastor Brian.
I hope this makes some sense it just truly upsets me I mean their are pastors telling parents that their kid is possessed and is a witch in some nations and these kids are abandoned. That is just stupid, on its face, no question. Kids cant be possessed, if they can then what ever God allows that should not be worshiped just repudiated. Kids are just that kids. Again thanks for letting me vent, much of this is emotionalism and rhetoric.
Wow, Brian sounds like he is rejected a lot of Chuck Smith “advice” and whatnot, over the years. He sounds kind of bitter and angry and arrogant. To me, anyway.
Reading between the lines also makes it pretty clear, from the start of page 3, that Brodersen’s Calvary Chapel will be ecumenical. Which pretty much destroys the distinctiveness that allured many of us to Calvary Chapel in the first place.
So, he’s wrong. Being ecumenical doesn’t make you culturally relevant. It just makes you watered-down and spiritually impotent. Even with a big crowd, a church can still be spiritually impotent. Ecumenicalism causes that.
Chuck Smith did have a gift from God to avoid this silly blabber which Brodersen is now spouting. Chuck Smith found a way to be separate from the rest, to teach the entire Bible without missing a single jot or tittle, and to still be culturally relevant. The two are possible to combine. Brodersen will eliminate the “separate from the rest” part, claiming that will make him relevant.
But without the Biblical separation, a church is in danger of becoming irrelevant to the Lord (see the letters to the churches in Revelation). Even if it is “relevant” to unbelievers.
“Steve Wright: Some of you guys just want blood as usual.”
Typical CC pastor portending mind-reading, whenever there’s dissent you can control, take out the trump card – I’ll read your mind and make your guilty!!!! Or so they think.
Jackie wrote: “You’re spot-on Andy. I’ll follow the Cloud, not the crowd and It’s moving on”
Same here. The crowd is occasionally right (Acts chapter 2), but often the crowd is dead wrong.
Give Me a Break wrote: “For those CC pastors and people who have a problem with what Brian is doing, as someone once said, ‘Don’t go away mad, just go away.’ ”
Consider it done, mate. Enjoy the “Christian” blob where being distinctive is the only sin.
MLD wrote: “Andy must be a big Lutheran fan. The LCMS is totally non ecumenical and we won’t even do missions with other christians … and for good reason”
Not really. But I won’t get started, because I don’t think it would be too welcome here. Just suffice it to say, that it’s becoming less and less possible in “Christian” circles to say that someone or something, is wrong. It’s becoming less and less possible to outright say, this teacher or this doctrine, is just plain wrong.
Oh, they’ll let you say that homosexuality is wrong or stealing is wrong. That will always pass the test. But begin to say that certain teachers are wrong, and you become a personal non grata. Begin to point out the inconsistencies of theological positions in terms of how they don’t line up with Scripture, and they will call you unloving and a divider and not recognizing the need for doctrinal tolerance.
Or point out how each so-called “tribe” contradicts one to the next, from calvinist to catholic to orthodox to methodist to…. and so on, even on issues like salvation itself, and you will be called a hater of the “brethren”.
So the only answer to this is, either join the blob, and if you can’t stomach that (I can’t), then be distinctive. That was one of the original things that the first generation of Calvary Chapel did (and was hated for). They were distinctive.
“There is no known factions or contingents of opposition. The congregation loves Pastor Brian. The staff is more unified than ever. Internal communication is getting better. And people are giving their life to Lord on a weekly basis. Like I said up top, we are doing well and having fun.” Happy, happy, joy, joy! Sing it again, with feeling! http://joshturansky.com/we-are-doing-well-and-having-fun/
Still lots of smoke and mirrors going on toward protecting the sheep from harsher realities of past & present, IMO.
I don’t think BB is one bit afraid of any plotting for his overthrow. Parties on all sides know too much about the others “failings” to be able to survive unscathed in any mudslinging contest. BB too adept in outward diplomacy combined with behind the scenes savvy. I might be wrong, but my view from the cheapseats.
I think both Xenia and I have asked “Why can’t CC be as ‘distinctive’ as they want without catching hell for it.”
Her Orthodox Church and my Lutheran Church are very distinctive – in fact my church does not have some 80 page booklet of distinctives but we have over 600 pages of Lutheran distinctives.
Someone doesn’t like our church being so particularly closed can go suck a lemon. 🙂
“Andy, you remind me of a pastor of a church I once attended. The “Calvary Way” or the highway. I chose the highway. Best choice that I ever made”
If you are happy with that, that’s your business, Give Me. It isn’t really the “Calvary Way” that I’m looking for, in reality. Before Chuck Smith, there was no “Calvary Way”. What Chuck Smith demanded, and got, was the right to say, “This teacher is wrong, this doctrine taught in these churches, are wrong”.
That is the way I will always demand for myself. And if there are those that can’t handle it, I will be hated, and that’s fine. I’m not looking for some persecution complex. I just want the right to point out what my Scripture reading and convictions tell me are wrong.
And it can be done in a loving way. But with some, no matter how loving you are, you are still hated for pointing it out at all. Which again, is fine.
It probably should be pointed out, unless someone wants to argue against it, that Broderson has not inherited Chuck’s position as head of the movement, only his position as pastor of Costa Mesa. While it was arguable what sway Chuck held over individual Calvary Chapels, it seems pretty clear that Broderson has no significant power in the wider movement.
Michael – I am thankful for you and others that make it damn near impossible to maintain the illusions of “no problems here” for very long. When “the screeching halt” in the fun begins, there will be lots of dead bodies on both sides, I’m afraid. There will be blood, as the movie title goes. May be the best thing to happen in the long run. The masks worn by those on all sides of the divisions being yanked by each other could be the healthiest, though painful, thing for CC’ers to see. If all sides remembered Jesus’ admonition that those without sin throw the stones, they’d be wise. I hold no inkling of hope such wisdom will prevail.
I think that very soon Brodersens enemies are going “scorched earth” on him and the result will be scorched on both sides.
I’ve been told things in the last week that shook me up even after all these years.
The good part is that some of us will finally be vindicated, the horrific part is that some lives will never be the same.
Once the fire is finished, perhaps rebuilding on a better foundation can happen.
Or…things can end up much worse.
That is a good observation Josh and one of the reasons that there will be changes. Even though some argue that CS didn’t rule over the “movement”, now that there isn’t someone in that place, there’s room for change.
No significant power? Well, if true, it isn’t from a lack of trying to consolidate his position of influence not only at Costa Mesa but throughout the movement. He was 2nd in command, now 1st over all the bible colleges and other educational endeavors, cleaned house and oversees KWVE, position of influence in missions and church planting tied directly to control of educational projects, Calvary Distribution now under his oversight, etc etc. He’s been Into hyperdrive, on focusing on young people, mentoring them himself and with a loyal team a good 10 years or longer. Then there’s the impact of Cheryl on practically being the personification of women’s ministry throughout the movement.
Annes #69 is true and very well done.
What that does is solidify his control over CCCM assets and provides a power base.
That influence doesn’t really extend beyond that, however.
No right or wrong, here, Josh. Just observations re: the storms that are brewing from different vantage points. If I were a gambler, I’d place my money on Michael’s “insider tips” though 😉 He’s been consistently spot on for many years now.
Anne, I agree with your #69 but it seems that all that $ doesn’t help much if there’s no support or followers for his cause. Brian has always been very straight forward with me but his peers seem to have issues with him. Time will tell and maybe sooner than later.
I’ve been told things in the last week that shook me up even after all these years.<<<
The allegations are bad, very serious<<<
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Well, this is certainly titillating.
I am really growing weary of "I know stuff so awful about CC that it would make your toes curl if you knew what I know, which I am not going to tell you."
I am increasingly convicted that this is tabloid journalism. Sure, maybe you do know "stuff." Maybe you trust those sources that are willing to slip you the dirt on their own churches. I have found that people that will snitch for you will just as easily snitch on you, so watch out.
And this "stuff…." What business is it for most of us? How many here are even connected with a Calvary Chapel anymore? I am increasingly convicted that I should not even be reading this stuff, much less offering an opinion. God bless Brian Brodersen and may he preach the truth and behave himself. That's all I have to say about him. Anything else… speculation and gossip.
Lent starts Monday. Maybe fascination with the gossip in CC-land will be one of the sins I repent of this year.
X no such thing. It’s that you can get sued so you have to be wise as a serpent etc.
I wouldn’t mention it if it wasn’t serious and wasn’t from serious sources.
I’m already getting sued (and will win eventually) and I’m just making sure I’ve got a strong case for CASP in case I get sued again so CASP can collect some of that Jesus money from those who collect it from those giving it to Jesus but then use it to fund lawsuits to intimidate and suppress the truth from coming out.
I hear what you’re saying and sometimes it feels that way to me too.
On the other hand, I have many, many pastors and pew sitters who are friends of mine that all this stuff affects and they deserve to know whats happening.
As RiBo stated, we have to be very careful…there is huge money involved and we could be sued out of existence.
There is a further desire to protect people from unsubstantiated claims where merely the accusation could ruin reputations.
If I were only seeking numbers and salacious content, I could have had a hundred thousand today if I wished…but I’m trying to walk a fine and often smeared line here.
X said, “Maybe fascination with the gossip in CC-land”
It’s not “gossip” per the bible if it is true.
Gossip card is overplayed in the church. Much of Paul the Apostles epistles could be labeled “Gossip!” by the same standard the church often uses to keep things hush hush.
Michael, agreed, it’s never been about numbers for numbers sake, never will be (other than when you claim I was ruining your blog and causing your numbers to be bad, which isn’t true BTW).
The numbers, however, do validate that the efforts to make a positive dent do work to a degree despite the defeatism and nay-saying about swinging at windmills etc (not directed at you J.U. just in general).
Stand on principle whether the numbers show progress and effectiveness or whether they don’t.
Ironically, even the bible verse proof-text for “gossip!” is itself gossip by the non-biblical definition of “gossip” from the Greek.
2 Thess. 3:11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies.
“We hear…” Hmm, someone told Paul that others were doing something wrong…and Paul rebuked them and called them out on it…sounds like GOSSIP! LOL
Greek words used for “gossip!” and “busybodies!” and “tale-bearers!” is always in the context of intentional lying, not addressing issues and concerns that are the truth.
Did a study on it, but as usual the “church” will twist the words of “the bible!” to mean whatever they want it to mean.
Honest question. Why the games here? I am leaning toward Xenia’s view on this.
You keep saying that you won’t say stuff online unless it is true, but here you are intimating that BB is worse than anyone else out there (#31, #35, #62). You smear his reputation with no presented facts and it almost sounds like you revel in the idea of the destruction that may come because you will be vindicated (#66).
#31 – Last, I have a pile of stuff getting larger by the day that says Brodersen may be the new manager at Home Depot by this time next year.
#35 – He faces tremendous opposition and they are crafting a dirt pile to bury him in. He may or may not deserve it. Time will tell.
#62 – Trust me…the fun is coming to a screeching halt soon. All those secrets will be out soon…
#66 – I think that very soon Brodersens enemies are going “scorched earth” on him and the result will be scorched on both sides. I’ve been told things in the last week that shook me up even after all these years. The good part is that some of us will finally be vindicated, the horrific part is that some lives will never be the same.
Shaun, you’re reading it way wrong. Privately Michael has lamented to me about the stuff and has been very skeptical of the motives behind the release of info…but the truth is the truth no matter who the person is who may have committed the issues Michael hinted at.
Me, my only concern is is it true. If it is likely true then some leaders need to give an answer and face the music…no matter how flawed or the motives of the messengers.
I’m learning that Michael is often reluctant in being the messenger.
The stuff disgusts him and he cautions me to be careful and to make sure the stuff is solid. He doesn’t do it just to do it. My impression is that he does it b/c not many else will deal with it.
There are no Hero’s in any of the CC stuff. It’s a big pile of doo that Chuck and CC Association etc scoop up, put it in a nice pretty box with nice pretty wrapping paper on the outside and a nice pretty bow on top and show the veneer to the public.
The private, the secret life of CC, the real stuff…is the poop in the box that the public hardly hears about.
In fact, you guys are lucky Michael has matured and considers some of you CC guys as friends. If it was me, there’d be none of you on here acting like you’re “good” and not part of the problem by promoting a bad Brand and then claiming there’s nothing you can do about it.
Some of these allegations have already been on social media.
I have not reprinted them here.
If you would like me to unload the files on here then say so.
After I saw these allegations I was in contact with people who told me of other allegations and the depths that some will go to in order to become victorious.
I honestly got sick.
I hate this stuff.
What I resent is the fact that it’s covered and people like me end up being the messengers because nobody has the balls to do this in a forthright or remotely godly way.
All the way through I’ve used the term “allegations”.
Nothing has been proven to my satisfaction and until it is I won’t go there.
On the other hand, I’m not going to pretend that all is bliss.
Why pull the guns out on this one? If memory serves, and this goes back through years of conversations on the other blog, and in person, you were never really a CC guy to begin with, and more or less had the church you are at dropped in your lap in a phone call and a couple meetings.
So this question really haunts me. Why do you persist in this? This aint even your fight. I know you have in the past taken a very passive stance on the whole “CC thing”. Is Chad and the boys at the other blog really effecting you to such a degree that you feel the need to defend the dove?
I have a very precise response to that. 99% of the talking heads there are full of s**t, and full of themselves. I do not perceive you to be the type who hangs well with that crowd.
Why the guns on this one? You have enough base and foundation to slip out the back door of this mess. I doubt Tom would fault you for that.
The discerning reader of both will note that in those 7 years the iceberg apparently spawned another 200 churches (15 percent growth)
_________________________________________________________________
I could shoot my muscles up with steroids and you would see lots of growth. Growth (numbers) is not equal to health.
“The discerning reader of both will note that in those 7 years the iceberg apparently spawned another 200 churches (15 percent growth)”
Even more reason to mandate commons sense Child Protection policies and Financial Transparency in the Calvary Chapel contract with Senior Pastors to get the permission to use the officially licenses name and logo, etc.
Shaun, if Calvary Chapel is “spawning churches” then that doesn’t sound “independent” at all. Would you describe it as more like a Parent Org contracting out Franchises via agreement?
“Spawning”…from a Calvary Chapel pastor. Thanks Shaun, I agree that’s what is really going on, Calvary Chapel births tons of new churches that aren’t previous churches that sign on in some sort of nebulous Affiliation, the vast majority of the CC’s are started fresh as Calvary Chapels in a franchise-type construct.
I can tell you that the loneliest times in my life have been at CC Pastors Conferences. (I never did become “affiliated”). They were/are some of the coldest, most uncaring individuals I have ever met. Most wouldn’t give me the time of day. One year I went with four other CC Pastors. They made the room plans, but “forgot” to include me, so I stayed in a room with two other guys (who didn’t give me the time of day, because they did not know me).
We were told to keep the doors locked, but one of them would leave the sliding glass door unlocked because he was too lazy to walk around to the front of the cottage (he got upset with me for locking it behind him – and this guy had the responsibility of pastoring a church? really?). Also, instead of respecting each others towels, he just helped himself to everyone else’s. When I asked him about it, he played dumb (really wasn’t too hard for him).
One afternoon after a study session, I called one of the pastors I came with on his cell phone to see what they were doing. They all went into town for dinner without me. Gee, thanks guys.
I honestly tried to get to know several pastors at the conferences, introducing myself. You would of thought I was pond scum. (One year, Chuck commented at the end of one of the sessions (at CCCM, where the congregation was invited to attend the evening sessions), that they US guys needed to open up and take the time to talk with the guys from Europe, as he was receiving comments that the US guys wouldn’t take the time to talk to those they did not know.
One year (in Austin), one of them asked me what I thought I was doing at the (region) conference? Shocked, I told him I was invited by the host pastor. To which he replied, “Well, I suppose that you are elder ruled also?” Before I could answer that I rewrote the by-laws giving my elders the authority to fire me for character and doctrinal reasons, he turned in disgust and walked away. Introducing myself to another pastor and telling him where I pastored, before I could say another word, the proceed to tell me in no uncertain terms that I could not receive affiliation because I was “elder ruled.” He didn’t know a thing about me.
But one of the most bitterest lessons I learned was never to disagree with a CC pastor. If you do, for any reason, you are shunned.
I must tell you though, that some like Mike Macintosh, Pastor Romaine, Gayle Erwin and a couple of others were/are some of the warmest and genuine individuals it has ever been my pleasure to meet. The others, not so much.
So, I am sure that some who comment here will call me “out for blood” because I have commented here. Even though this is the first time I have commented publically about this in over seven years.
Why would I comment now? Well, things have come a long was since the tent. Too bad.
“Last, I have a pile of stuff getting larger by the day that says Brodersen may be the new manager at Home Depot by this time next year.”
Oh Randall…. Your story hit home. I remember once sitting in a Women’s Ministry meeting and I was in the middle of an interior struggle, unbeknownst to any of them. All of the sudden I put my head down on the table and began to cry my eyes out. These women, my supposed friends, just stared at me. Never said a word. After a few minutes I recovered myself and they continued on with the meeting as if nothing ever happened. No one asked what was troubling me and there were no follow-up phone calls. What kind of philosophy of ministry produces people like this….
I was a CC pastor’s kid so I got my butt kissed all the time like our family was some sort of celebrity or royalty. It is quite a cult-like dynamic. I am very glad to be out of it and well detoxed from the ccool-aid.
Randall–“…before I could say another word, the proceed to tell me in no uncertain terms that I could not receive affiliation because I was “elder ruled.”
“But one of the most bitterest lessons I learned was never to disagree with a CC pastor. If you do, for any reason, you are shunned.”
These are the things I say, but get hammered and told I’m wrong. Yet, we keep hearing examples of it.
Randall, I appreciate what you did for real accountability. I’m sorry for what those CC pastors did to you.
Randall, same here (as Chile)…you tried which is more than most and your public statement of your experiences validates a lot of what we’ve been saying.
Randall, I know what you mean! I went to more of those conferences than I can count and can believe every word you said. We had all the same old problems at our local CC as everyone else, but it was going to those conferences that really opened my eyes over time to how messed up this all was.
Went to a CC in the southwest in the early 90’s that was elder led for what I considered the “glory years”. In the mid-90’s the pastor gave two of the elders the boot and it changed to the standard CC structure and seemed to lose it’s luster to myself, but kept growing numerically. So the Moses’ model wasn’t necessarily the rule for CC, but it sure is tempting…
Xenia–“Maybe you trust those sources that are willing to slip you the dirt on their own churches. I have found that people that will snitch for you will just as easily snitch on you, so watch out.”
If Michael, or any of us, hardens into unrepentant sin, or disqualification from our posts, then I should hope people would snitch. It’s the right thing to do according to NT admonitions.
Chile, you must not have sent it to the correct email address. It is summer.joy62@gmail.com. I tested it and it works fine. No caps and don’t forget the dot after summer 🙂
I went to many retreats and conferences. Usually I was with some of my students or other people with disabilities being the “care provider”. Meds showers, helping in the bathroom, changing colostomy bags and such, making sure people drank enough, that they took their medication correctly, dealing with seizures, choking, breathing issues, heat frustration, a few UTI’s, a few allergic reactions, and so on. One time I went to one camp got handed a bag full of unmarked meds and some instructions written on the back of a post it note and said here deal with this. Well, that could be a major lawsuit if anything happened so I sat down with the med tec and nurse and wrote out a med dismemberment plan with the parents of the phone. Good think I did, that kid could have died. Yes they do die when you give them their meds out of order or mixed up. I never have because I am a paranoid so and so about those things. All my campers never got sick, not even a red from the sun and never even a mosquitoes bite.
Now these people were not evil or anything and they were very very kind to me but they were just so busy and extremely overwhelmed. I mean extremely overwhelmed and all they wanted to do was minister but the list I put up is just a few of the issues to consider. They showed these young people the greatest time and went all out. One story, I was not there but they brought a young man with a wheel chair to a camp and there was no access to cabins etc and know won even thought about it. So the entire camp changed and they spent part of their time building ramps and access just for this one person. I swear this young man was so moved even 20 years later. So I think when I went to some of these camps I got frustrated with those folks not listening to my yammering and I do yammer on. At times I took it like rudeness and being the psudo martyr I can be I took in the wrong way. I dont mean this concerning anyone else but I know I have to watch that about me.
Randall I am sorry that happened to you it is not ok for people to treat others like that. You seem like a very kind man and you love God so if it helps I apologize for those people. Thank you for sharing what you shared.
Randall you have a lot of “church” experience that I know of. And your words carry a lot of weight and credibility.
I spent more then enough time around those guys. If you are not in the inner circle you just are not in.
Anyone ever stop to think about why over all the years it was always announced that the speakers would be the same guys that spoke in the past. Never any new “Joshuas” only the same old tired names at the conferences and special events.
I will say that Raul R is a very good guy when it comes to new people and strangers. He is humble and sincere.
I am sad to hear of your own treatment by most of the others Randall.
Let me ask it this way, I am posting under an assumed name for reasons of privacy and I am just a coward. I helped take care of this lady back in they day in the institution she lived in. She was a very smart lady and I think we made a connection because I could look past what she did with excrement, and other bodily fluids. I was a very naive young “Christian” ( I no longer consider it honest to consider I was one of those with any honesty but I want to be), She dug into her skin, tore her hair out down to the root, no actually down to the skull bone sometimes. She would “smear” meaning she would decorate her living environment including herself with well, nevermind. But I was struck by her bright eye, not eyes as she had taken the other eye out with a fork during a meal before I arrived.
When I shared a few of these things it was clear she was demon possessed and I was given no manor of magic incantations to recite to free her soul. Non worked at all, not even a single time. What worked was medication and behavior modification techniques. Of course those are all, nope I deleted that rhetoric but the prayer had absolutely no effect at all. I lay that at my feet, as I did not pray hard enough of course God wanted her to rip her scalp out down to the bone and poke her eyeball out with a fork and other such instruments. I won’t go into where she places other objects because of decorum.
What I did learn, I worked a Thanksgiving weekend and I prayed (yes I do pray) and on that weekend we had no self injurious behaviors. We watched “Its a wonderful life”, ate good food and I made no pressure just prayed to be a servant. I know this instils the gag reflect, trust me I know that in spades when I have shared this before. OK I am looking for attention I want prayer, I want to seek peace. God kill me for such sins. I have even prayed that even tonight. But what I saw happen to that woman was wonderful. She found a few moments of peace and I hope into eternity. I admit I am an evil vile piece of human filth, my take on what I have been told about me. I get that. But I find this holy. This lady, she was the face of Jesus to me and still is. Sorry if this is emotionality clap trap. Not offered for the awe poor brian blabber, I deserve hell nothing else and I dont want it, offered for them, because they are far better than most of us.
Brian, I have a friend with a daughter like the woman you describe. It’s so hard. I just wish she could be free from it. I can’t imagine how you do it?
Here I am staying up nights this week to care for a sick child, but it’s practically child’s play in comparison.
You all know my position. I wish just once that Michael would come on his blog and apologize for the titilating gossip he teases us with that always comes to nothing. He’s been crying wolf for so long I’m surprised he still has a voice. RIBO has zero credibility so don’t believe a word he writes. Bit Michael is an intelligent righteous man who serves The Lord faithfully in many ways just not when it comes to CC gossip and innuendo.
This is really funny -the whole thread is terribly disrespectful. Andrew (and Michael also) why do you doubt Brian B’s skills? Here is a guy who has spent his life preaching the gospel, he has led churches etc.
Andrew – do you think your pastor could get a job at Home Depot let alone mange one? I couldn’t, I have no trade skills.
The funny thing is you guys base everything on “I don’t like him” while all along holding almost identical theological views – I on the other hand have great theological differences in the man and would never suggest that I would like to see him lose his job.
How short memories are.
I actually defended Brodersen when he was under siege from the Heitzig/Paul Smith/Bryson contingent.
He was the logical choice at that point to lead that church.
I also thought the direction the CCA was going was positive.
Since the writing of that article I have very good reasons to question the tactics and ethics on both sides.
In the last week or so, members of the extended Smith family clan have made allegations publicly and privately that could result in greater complications.
It’s a big, sick, sad, family business and at this point I really don’t give a rats ass about what people think about what I write…I just wish people would clean up their acts in the church.
You can publish anything on line anonymously, so why would you be afraid of being sued out existence, and if it’s true than why fear a lawsuit when it should be a welcomed opportunity to shine the spotlight on the problems that are rotting away the body and thus can be dealt with, so as that famous line goes, either put up or shut up!
I’m not anonymous.
I’ve always put my name right here and everyone in Calvary knows who I am.
Nothing funnier than anonymous posters calling me out for being allegedly anonymous.
When things are proven to me adequately I will post them…until then I will recognize and comment on the fact that the allegations are out there.
If it offends you, you have a mouse.
Michael – there are 2 sides to running a church. There is actually a business side to operating a church. Business is business – you still have a great responsibility to get the most bang for your buck (that would be Jesus money as RB says) otherwise you are not faithful to your congregation.
I tell people, do not get into a church leadership position if you do not want to see how the sausage is made.
Even I one who doesn’t share what goes on with either will say that the world – both Christian and secular is better off with things like KWVE radio and Word for Today publishing … but they do not get created or developed with your ‘churchy’ attitude -they are a business.
What happens with Word and Sacrament – that is the church part and from what I see, they have that down pretty good.
Spare me the lecture.
My “churchy” attitude says that in both business and especially in the church, character matters.
Character is made a matter of critical importance in the NT definition of leadership and character is the issue here.
You are so set on opposing me that you have now stated that a group you left for theological reasons is good with Word and sacrament…you are a contrary man.
Not true at all – I oppose your tactics on occasion. This article is a prime example. The article and comments were good and perfectly legitimate until you threw out
“but if you only knew the truth, heads will roll and people would be shamed. But I can’t tell you the truth because people haven’t freed me to tell the truth. Well, I hope that the truth is the truth, because I want to tell you the truth, but I won’t know the truth until some of these anonymous people tell me if the truth is the truth. The truth has been publish already on social media but I am not going to tell you the truth. But if you hound me about the truth, do you want me really to lay if all out here? (a comment made to Shaun Sells.)”
“I don’t much about Brian Broderson other than listening to him has to be the number one cure for Insomnia”
No kidding. He led a conference at the castle in Austria that I was at in the past, and I had never heard him before. Dry as dirt. Didn’t feel the Holy Spirit at all. His speaking made me irritable. At that time, I was still in the “CC can do no wrong” mentality, and I remember thinking, “This guy can’t be CC. He’s boring and has nothing to say at all”.
But maybe it was the conference thing that caused that reaction in me. I always hated the conferences. Pastor’s conference, associate pastor’s conference, worship conference, men’s ministry conference, women’s ministry conference, children’s ministry conference, evangelism conference, missionary conference, couple’s conference… on and on and on and on and on….
” Dry as dirt. Didn’t feel the Holy Spirit at all. His speaking made me irritable.”
I don’t know BB, but I understand your comment.
Interestingly years ago I was studying Jonathan Edwards and found out he was considered one of the most boring speakers ever. It was said he would get up in his church and just read his sermon in a dull monotone manner and yet he is credited with leading the birthing Nation into the “Great Awakening.” At one point he was even removed from his position as pastor at his church because of his uncompromising position on some subjects.
In history we all remember JE for his sermon, “In the hands of an angry God,” and consider him one of the the most Holy Spirit inspired speakers.
My point is some really boring people have some really good things to say from God. Not everyone can be a cool aloha shirted (and now shirt sleeve tattooed), charismatic, filled with the spirit person. Most of us are just boring.
Hey RiBo leads a more interesting life than most. How many of us get face off, carrying a pistol, with Nazi Skin Heads who are also carrying?
MLD, I’ll repeat it again, I do blame hitler and the nazis for acting on the words of Martin Luther. I am still very perplexed why you’d die on the hill of defending Luther’s indefensible “On Jews and Their Lies” and seek to minimize it, especially you being a former Jew or racial Jew. Makes no sense.
Seems antisemitism is still prevalent in Germany. I don’t get it. But it’s there and even guys like MLD show it’s still alive and well today in the USA.
Bob, ya, “interesting”. Well I’d gladly trade getting sued by my CC pastor step-dad and mom, getting the white-wash face-to-face by Chuck Smith and his attorney, squaring off with several psychos (on various occasions) at the pawn/gun shops over the years and being beaten down, tortured, ritually broken down mentally growing up as a kid and teen.
But, fortunately I’ve had a lot of good “interesting” along the way as well.
That goes without saying, but to deny he was a biggy in history wouldn’t be fair. Of course he was a Calvinist.
RiBo:
You know there’s nothing any of us can change about our personal history except to move forward. My father was never around at all when I was a child, of my grandfathers, one was a drunk who beat his children and the other a wife abuser who divorced his first wife in a time when such a thing was hush hush. There is much more, but those things are a part of my history as are yours.
What I found interesting is the differences about how my sister and I saw our childhood. I was independent and basically did what I wanted to do, while my sister grew bitter and eventually dragged our mother into counseling with her after my father’s death. I enjoyed my childhood and she remembers it as a horrible time.
Today we are both married one time to wonderful people, have children, grand children, care about our mother, and have worked through all those issues.
But you’ve got admit the two Nazi Skin Heads gave you a great story to tell others about!
I don’t feel like I was pulling out a gun. I love and respect Michael largely because he has been very diligent to put facts with accusations. This thread felt different to me so I let him know it. I probably should have done it offline. That is my failure, and I accept it. I was not defending Brian, because I don’t know Brian nor can I speak to his character. I was not defending Calvary Chapel. I was exhorting Michael.
As far as me persisting in Calvary Chapel, the reason is simple. The church I pastor is a Calvary Chapel and the people here love this church. They are largely unaffected by the garbage that exists in other Calvary Chapels. Changing affiliation when the people here are happy seems silly to me. Additionally I love the core concepts of Calvary even if there are some Calvary’s that follow them the way I understand them.
We have accountable leadership, child protections, and financial accountability. We have great fellowship with other churches of many different denominational backgrounds. We are a Calvary Chapel that meets the standards that you, Michael, and Alex are fighting for. Why would you want us to leave.
Concerning SMP, they don’t set my course. I comment there about as much as I do here, which is to say rarely. I love the guys I have met there, and I am saddened that you guys still have angst. I won’t hate them simply because you do, and I won’t abandon my relationship with you just because some of them may have. As you may recall I offered to get involved in your situation because I knew and loved the people involved on both sides – you asked me not to.
Michael –
I am sorry I brought this online, I should have contacted you offline to express my concerns about your tone here. I didn’t mean to distract from the thread, but I would point out that I was not the only one who noticed.
I hear and understand your concerns.
My hope is that all this stuff is untrue and it all goes away.
What I can’t do is ignore what I am told by credible people who actually have the best interests of Brodersen and CC at heart.
After hearing out the group there may be things I need to reassess and repent of…I’m always open to that possibility.
Bob, JE may have had considerable influence (and his horrible sermon is required reading in many high school English classes, giving yet another generation of kids an erroneous view of God) but I do not “consider him one of the the most Holy Spirit inspired speakers.”
I don’t consider JE one of the most Holy Spirit inspired speakers either. I read not only *that* sermon, but others from him, and there’s nothing there. The can is empty.
Great word, Shaun @138. And great question. “Why would you want us to leave?”
I believe with all my heart that Michael wants to see Calvary Chapel thrive, not just in numbers but in health – just as he would want every denomination that serves Jesus to thrive. I believe he supports the emphasis on people being taught the word of God, and recognizes that Calvary has and continues to reach a large portion of our society that otherwise feels very uncomfortable or even rejected by other denominations.
I believe Michael would praise God if another 1000 CCs were planted AS LONG AS they all had pastoral accountability standards, safeguards to protect the children and people, and transparency in all areas of ministry. Likewise, if the inconsistency as to when Costa Mesa (or the new CCA) got involved in the oversight of another church and when it said “not my problem” as that mixed message under Chuck was a huge problem. And of course, an end to the “good-old-boy” network that is not healthy at all, and that some have been on the receiving end of.
He can correct me if I am mistaken.
To that end, recognizing change does not happen overnight, he supports several of us, publicly. Those of us who want the same things.
Others do not. They want CC to either crash and burn or be so radically changed that it really is not CC anymore. To these, anyone in CC who might be respected by outsiders is actually a problem, because the argument is the bad tree can only bring bad fruit. So these are the CC folks who are going to get hit even harder than the scoundrels, in hopes they either are badgered into leaving CC (not going to happen) or badgered into leaving the public eye on blogs critical of CC (and this has been successful)
So a month or so a guy pops in here after a long absence and is rewarded with his own article on the Abuse blog. Something I can relate to as well. But it is far more than just that one person and his blog. Why bother sticking your head out if that is almost the guaranteed outcome.
I really do not see how I can continue to encourage CC pastors to dialog at places like here with their critics – at least not without telling them the cost they must expect to pay. Next month I will be speaking to a bunch of pastoral candidates and will tell them in no uncertain terms that they need accountability and safeguard protections. I intended to encourage them to be outspoken by name to the world as they do – to seek fellowship outside of the CC bubble and above all else to listen to those who have had bad experiences in CC and try to be a bridge builder for Christ (not CC but for Christ).
Now I think I will just tell them my experience and have them google me after the session to see what they can expect to happen if they dare leave the bubble. Seriously, can anything good really be expected if a new CC pastor showed up here to dialog with the community. The very, very few that still do on occasion split pretty quickly. I guess I am either very slow on the uptake or woefully optimistic.
I think it is silly for anyone to complain about not being “public” – (How many times have I publicly written here not just what we do at CCLE but what I would like to see the whole movement require for affiliation.) But anyone who could say with a straight face, knowing my history, that I am in CC “for the money” is quite out of touch anyway
It has been encouraging to get random emails from guys asking questions, even for copies of what we do in order to implement them at their place, and yeah sometimes to hear from those who say they used to be regulars here but the blog changed and they split. I know when I first started posting here about 5 years ago there were a LOT of CC pastors too. Now..not so much.
I continue to support (publicly) Michael, standing appreciative of not only his goals here but his personal help for me and our church in the past. I will continue to challenge him too when I think he is off-base, but as Shaun suggested – I think that would be best served offblog going forward.
whew, glad I never wasted my time reading it after those reviews.
I have a hard time wanting to read sermons. If a sermon is properly prepared it is like a fine meal – meant for a one time serving and made for a particular individual or group.
My pastor prepares that meal for me each week – so I see no need to pick leftovers off the plates of others.
Reading is also difficult because you cannot pick up the voice inflections of emphasis points.
Steve’s point is so true.
Yesterday I tired to make the point, if people are happy in their CC experience, can’t we also be happy for them?
Shaun today said “They are largely unaffected by the garbage that exists in other Calvary Chapels. Changing affiliation when the people here are happy seems silly to me. ”
But you know that there are several key critics here who would reply “No! those people have no right to be happy in that environment. The environment is wicked and the people are just brainwashed… or equally evil”
“I believe with all my heart that Michael wants to see Calvary Chapel thrive, not just in numbers but in health – just as he would want every denomination that serves Jesus to thrive.”
Yes.
“I believe Michael would praise God if another 1000 CCs were planted AS LONG AS they all had pastoral accountability standards, safeguards to protect the children and people, and transparency in all areas of ministry. Likewise, if the inconsistency as to when Costa Mesa (or the new CCA) got involved in the oversight of another church and when it said “not my problem” as that mixed message under Chuck was a huge problem. And of course, an end to the “good-old-boy” network that is not healthy at all, and that some have been on the receiving end of.”
Multiple yea’s.
“Next month I will be speaking to a bunch of pastoral candidates and will tell them in no uncertain terms that they need accountability and safeguard protections.”
This is where the rubber meets the road in my opinion.
This is why we HAVE to support guys like Steve who are making the reforms needed and encouraging others to do so.
Most of those guys will not read the blog or consider it if they do.
They will listen to one of their peers.
When the effort is being made it has to be affirmed and recognized.
“I will continue to challenge him too when I think he is off-base, but as Shaun suggested – I think that would be best served offblog going forward.”
I am a sinner prone to the same temptations that plague all of us…correction and exhortation are both appreciated, on or offline.
It’s ok with me how you feel about JE. I have no skin I the game of whose “inspired” or not.
I’m one those who appreciate all the church heroes and fathers and believe they all have contributed to the present traditions of our faith. Who’s inspired? They all were at some point as are you.
I have done a little reading of JE, both of his writings and bios of him, notably the one by Iain Murray. And maybe I am over stating this, but that idea of JE being boorish in and out of the pulpit is a caricature.
Steve, Thank you so much for participating. I’m sorry you get attacked so often for your affiliation. I understand the anger often directed against you. Those that have a serious disputes with CC in general often hold you personally responsible or want to you forsake the brand or somehow work harder to reform CC.
The situation with CC is unusual. It is not a denomination, yet – in a way – it is. It lacks many of the advantages of a denomination such as overall structure and hierarchy, yet it does promise some conformity from church to church. As RiBo points out, it is much like a franchise.
I remind readers I’ve never attended a CC. My current church is a denomination, but still each church is independent. An odd combination, I admit. Yet, as Michael has often commented on, it does seem to be the direction that modern American Evangelistic churches are taking. It may not be a healthy trend at all.
I get some of the anger against CC that rubs off on you. I think the concept of a “brand” in Christian life is an interesting concept and has been hashed to death on this blog.
I just want to say that I greatly appreciate your input on this blog. I’ve learned much from you as I’ve learned from other educated pastors. That education and teaching is one thing I expect from a pastor. I also expect the level of holiness (for lack of a better term) that is required in the scripture’s description of pastors and overseers.
I am sympathetic to the viewpoint of those abused by CC in general, including “you know who.” I know you are sympathetic too. I sincerely wish those people would NOT take their, often valid, complaints against CC out in personal attacks against you.
The push and shove on this blog is sometimes a useful dynamic and good debate can help us all determine the truth. That’s how the legal system is set up with a prosecutor and a defense and they both present their case and, in this way, we hope that truth and justice will be served.
So thank you for your input on this blog. I know it comes at some personal sacrifice for you. The tough questions deserve to be asked and answered. The ad hominem attacks are not necessary, and I regret these personal attacks. Let’s argue facts and principles, rather than personalities. (An exception is where character of the individual is the issue.)
…that has happened when a couple went from Stupar’s CC to Visalia. They are now separated and have gotten chewed up and spit out and had no idea what they were getting into going to another “Calvary Chapel”
Steve said, “I believe Michael would praise God if another 1000 CCs were planted AS LONG AS they all had pastoral accountability standards, safeguards to protect the children and people, and transparency in all areas of ministry. Likewise, if the inconsistency as to when Costa Mesa (or the new CCA) got involved in the oversight of another church and when it said “not my problem” as that mixed message under Chuck was a huge problem. And of course, an end to the “good-old-boy” network that is not healthy at all, and that some have been on the receiving end of.”
Financial transparency as well, though you may have meant that with “transparency in all areas of ministry” above.
That’s what I want too. CC can be the fastest growing church in the world for all I care, as long as it has those things, I’d stop blogging about it as I’ve posted in article form as a challenge on my blog.
If Calvary Chapel will require those things to be an official CC that has the rights to the name and license etc, then I’d sing the praises and change the focus of the blog or shut it down altogether.
““The first and primary object of preaching is not only to give information. It is, as Edwards says, to produce an impression. It is the impression at the time that matters, even more than what you can remember subsequently. In this respect Edwards is, in a sense, critical of what was a prominent Puritan custom and practice. The Puritan father would catechize and question the children as to what the preacher had said. Edwards, in my opinion, has the true notion of preaching. It is not primarily to impart information; and while you are writing your notes you may be missing something of the impact of the Spirit. As preachers we must not forget this. We are not merely imparters of information”.
Jonathan Edwards and the Crucial Importance of Revival by Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones.
J.U. – I have REALLY appreciated your input here the last couple of days. Finding myself in much agreement.
Ribo does bring up a good point about the need to speak up for truth at times. Don’t know if that would always have to be done publicly. There may be a way to address that with different individuals at different times, but the concern does seem valid.
What kind of stupid people get a divorce because the went to a different church?
RB, this is a sign that you have no critical thinking ability. Did it ever occur to you that these people came to the city of Visalia with serious personal issues eating at them, that were enhanced by making a move from their previous home to a new home – and that the visit to CC Visalia was just incidental?
Believe me, I would have serious issues if I had to move from SLO (great place to live) to Visalia (the arm pit of the central valley.)
MLD, I don’t have the space and time or permission to spell out the whole situation in detail to support the claim. If I did, it would “dominate” the thread and you’d call for my banning and moderation.
The couple had major trouble in Visalia and they are no longer a couple. It was the stress of the bad situation there that was the catalyst.
You can do your normal trolling pot stir, but others, don’t be fooled. It’s as I stated.
If I recall my studies correctly, Edwards would read his sermons, while leaning an elbow on the pulpit. It sounds dry to us, as we are used to preachers who are influenced by the likes of Eddie Murphy and other entertainers. But, apparently when he read “Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God”, people were screaming and holding on to the columns of the church, not to be dropped down into Hell.
You also have to understand that reading a sermon was a very common practice in countries that required licensed ministers to preach. This was avoided by having a sermon written by a licensed minister, but anyone could read it, live. Many people in Edwards day would have been completely comfortable with this practice, and may have been more jarred by an improvisational, informal speech.
MLD, whatevs. Go apologize for some antisemitism or something. You should move to Northern Idaho, there’s a few folks who would love you up there…though the OC has some of it too, you’re probably already in the club.
Josh, Thank you very much. I’ve paid careful attention to the voices on this blog. One issue at the very core of this blog is the unusual organization of CC. It appears to have a common requirement in doctrine, and, I assume, in other issues of organization. I doubt anyone can adopt the name and logo without permission from the “mother ship.” Yet it seems to – somewhat conveniently – deny responsibility on some key issues.
I don’t blame Steve or other CC pastors personally for that, although I agree it is an issue that deserves some discussion. (I do blame anyone who did have a hand in the shenanigans, but I’ve never seen any accusations that Steve, for example, performed bad deeds.)
I support RiBo on his quest and the quest of others injured by CC. I really think accountability is required. I think my main complaint is the tone of some of the conversation. As Christians, we really should be more civil to each other. I think that our conversations sometimes get too emotional, although I realize that some of the injury is very emotional.
By the way, I think a lot of the lack of civility is in the unfortunate dynamic of the Internet blogs.
So I will support and defend those challenged and insulted on this blog unjustly, even while I support the premise of some of the complaints. That’s my personal view.
Too bad you choose not to address issues.. but rather just prefer to level personal insults. It’s not me who lives in Idaho selling weapons to the 100% white population.
I listened to your radio interviews … you can’t hide.
I sold a .357 magnum to a gay couple recently, sell guns to hispanic/latinos, blacks, women all the time.
I’d estimate about 25% of my guns sales are to minorities (not including women). Race is a non-factor, it’s about freedom loving Americans in all flavors who want to exercise their right in the Bill of Rights to protect themselves. In that case, I’m as Rainbow-Push as Jesse Jackson hisself…as long as the folks can pass the background check and qualify under the law.
There are many squared away blacks and latinos here in Whitey-ho. They love freedom and don’t hate whitey at all. They’re Americans first and foremost we all get along just fine…though some in the black community get persecuted by other blacks for being “too redneck”
Andrew – do you think your pastor could get a job at Home Depot let alone mange one? I couldn’t, I have no trade skills.
__________________________________________________________________
Exactly, that was my point. Why would Home Depot hire Brian? He doesn’t have these types of skills that I am aware of.
If I can make the Southwest flight at 3pm out of Sacramento, I could probably be at your office by 5pm. You think anything from Claim Jumper would be left?
“people were screaming and holding on to the columns of the church, not to be dropped down into Hell”
It will be interesting to see if any people are in heaven because of JE’s “sermon” in which he makes it clear that God abhors you like an insect over the fire, God who cannot bear to have you in His sight, as JE makes so “poetically” clear.
Of course, that is not the God of the Bible that His Word has shown to me.
It is also noteworthy that the way to heaven, believing in Jesus, is so many times repeated in John’s Gospel just that way. But in JE’s “sermon”, the word believe appears just three times, and faith, zero times.
Thus, he scares you with hellfire, but never emphasizes the way out, which is BELIEVING in JESUS. Jesus is merely brought up but the emphasis on believing is basically nonexistent, again with just three uses of the word in such an otherwise wordy blah blah blah…
Now I am mad at Brodersen also. I went out to Costco to get gas, driving past CCCM I turned on KWAVE and Brodersen was on talking about marriage and relationships with his wife.
We don’t plan well. I ordered lunch for everyone to close out our month and a guy just showed up with another delivery. It turns out my wife had ordered out beer, wine, cheese and crackers for Happy Hour in the office.
“Others do not. They want CC to either crash and burn or be so radically changed that it really is not CC anymore. To these, anyone in CC who might be respected by outsiders is actually a problem, because the argument is the bad tree can only bring bad fruit. So these are the CC folks who are going to get hit even harder than the scoundrels, in hopes they either are badgered into leaving CC (not going to happen) or badgered into leaving the public eye on blogs critical of CC (and this has been successful)”
Not me, CC Bores me so I could care less these days.
Still waiting for Michael to apologize for turning a positive profile of a fellow servant for Christ into an open forum to spread dirt on an innocent man. Don’t expect Hell to freeze over anytime soon.
By the way Michael unless this dirt on BB involves sexual abuse of some type it will have minimal impact on his ministry. But I doubt we will ever know because I don’t believe the story is true.
Understand, I do not know Brian B., and I’m not accusing him of anything. Mark, I don’t know you either, but your comments continue to trouble me. For instance, this one:
“By the way Michael unless this dirt on BB involves sexual abuse of some type it will have minimal impact on his ministry. But I doubt we will ever know because I don’t believe the story is true.”
Do you believe that sexual abuse is the only sin that should discredit a pastor? What about misuse of church money? What about walking all over the lives of people? What about bearing false witness? I could go on. I know of more people who have left the church all together because of sins by a pastor that had nothing to do with sexual misdeeds.
I had breakfast with a friend last week who is deeply troubled by what he is witnessing at his church. When I suggested that he leave, he told me that if he leaves the church he would most likely never attend church again.
I repeat, I am not accusing Brian of anything, its comments like # 187 that really piss me off!
Here is the issue I have with Michael’s “pre release” of the dirt on BB.
If it turns out that BB is really a good upright guy and nothing comes out – Michael and his sources will report a cover up – because surely the gossip must be true.
BB is in a lose lose battle here … especially with friends who have his best interest at heart as Michael reported yesterday – those who think his best interest is best served by being railroaded out and being the next new manager at The Home Depot.
As more often than not lately, you’re wrong.
I’ll go where the facts lead and if they lead to nothing more than more malicious politics I’ll talk about that as well.
Loudly.
Bob, I came to learn that Mark is one of the biggest CCool-Aid drinkers that post here. I don’t believe that he’s a pastor but he sure loves the dove. He may be in for a surprise.
I realize this is an older post but the answer given by Brian Brodersen to the question –
“The Calvary Chapel movement is known for the so-called Moses’ model of leadership. Is this as prevalent as some say?”
Is IMO very dismissive?
Brian answered “It’s exaggerated by people on the outside and by the disgruntled“
1. It is not exaggerated.
2. Even people not associated (outside) CC can see it.
3. Saying disgruntled seems like saying ‘nothing would be good enough for these people’
i.e. there is no real people that have been hurt and there is no legitimate complaints.
This seems like saying do not pay attention to these people because they are uninformed and/or can’t see the facts, and there is no real damage from this model that hardly exists.
I believe the term “Moses Model” is actually fading away. Its being replaced by something far worse, appears sexy but accomplishes exactly what the Moses Model used to do and more. That is it gives the senior pastor as much power and control he wants with very little accountability. Its the “visionary” model pastor. They get it from the Bible because they say God is the ultimate visionary. They don’t need to model Moses anymore when they can model God himself is their thinking. This model uses corporate business model vision casting couched in biblical prophetic language. Run baby run!
Actually more than 100..the “Moses Model” was nothing but the traditional senior pastor model with fresh paint and a crappy explanation.
Baptists and independents have used it for centuries.
Chuck saw lots of independent Pentecostals do as they damn well pleased and he made his own application.
The complete lack of any knowledge of church history makes them think he came up with the idea.
He didn’t.
He just dressed it up in funny clothes.
Because I’m tired, I will not lecture you on the foolishness of applying God’s means of ordering His theocracy to the N.T. people of God.
Thus, you are blessed indeed. 🙂
There are multiplied more in the SBC and IFB running the same system.
It is the most used form of church government in Protestantism.
Real people have been hurt, but of you think you’re going to replace that ecclesiology you’re wasting your time.
I agree with Michaels #205. However, I believe it is much more than foolishness and I think Michael was being very kind indeed. I do think there is an application of Num 26:16 and that is Jesus the Man ruling over His church and not a pastor over his congregation.
In defense of SBC – the VAST majority are congregational. Like maybe 90%. Second to that would be Elder Led. Probably about 8%. There are some guys in the SBC, and some of them are pretty high profile, who do a “Moses Model” kind of thing…but there are only a few.
Dread said our congregationalism was the most evil for of church polity ever, and now Michael is ripping us for having Moses Model pastors. 🙂
I guess Dread is the closest to being correct, here.
n defense of SBC – the VAST majority are congregational. Like maybe 90%. Second to that would be Elder Led. Probably about 8%. There are some guys in the SBC, and some of them are pretty high profile, who do a “Moses Model” kind of thing…but there are only a few.
____________________________________________________________________
Furtick is one of them right? This is to me is a great example of the morphing from Moses Model to “Visionary” model for a pastor. It is sort of the same basic principal taken to a new level of arrogance.
This was posted on my blog, very serious allegations and similar to other CC situations I’ve encountered:
“Concerned says:
March 5, 2014 at 1:39 am (Edit)
I was an extremely active member of Rob McCoy’s church from 2003-2005. During that time, I was molested by a member of his staff and know first hand of two other situations where teenagers were molested/sexually assaulted around said time. Rob McCoy knew about the situation involving me and did nothing. He paid for one of the other victim’s parent’s vacation to Hawaii so they wouldn’t press charges and I am not sure if he was aware of the third victim. Interestingly, each situation involved a different perpetrator. I am extremely disturbed by the fact that 1) as mandated by law, Rob McCoy had a legal obligation to report these abuses and did nothing about it and 2) he hires these types of people as part of his staff. About a year ago, I approached the police department to report the abuse that happened to me when I was a teenager. I explained that I was filing a report in an attempt to make sure this wasn’t still happening to other vulnerable teenage girls. At first, they were extremely responsive however once personal information about the suspect was disclosed, I never heard back. I sent approximately 12 e-mails to the investigating officer and nothing. I find it interesting that Rob is a Chaplain with the Police department and up until personal information was shared, they were extremely responsive.
I know where he stands on child abuse/child protection policies…he doesn’t. If you’re in, you’re protected and if not watch out. bI know this because I lived it. Additionally, I remember him preaching about Miranda’s Law specifically and advocating against it. His stance was that once a man has served his time and is “forgiven”, he should be reinstated back into the community with a clean sheet. Really, Rob? Ideally this would be the case and people would suddenly be healed of their perversions however temptation is a real thing and I bet most people would agree that they would be uncomfortable leaving their children alone with a convicted child molester.
Posting this is extremely difficult for me…hopefully this sheds some light on a very dark situation.”
How the hell is Steve responsible for something that happened somewhere else?
Rob McCoy wants to run for office…so I’d love to see the police report on this.
If this is true, he’s toast.
However I’ve learned the hard way to get both sides of a story…there’s a “victim” on your site telling lies about me, so I’d verify first.
Right now it’s an allegation posted on my blog. I will do some digging. I’ve reached out to the author of the comment and will be contacting McCoy soon, but CC usually stone walls so I’m not hopeful for a reply other than he might threaten to sue which is the CC way.
Michael said, “How the hell is Steve responsible for something that happened somewhere else?”
The NFL is an Association.
The individual NFL franchise owners who get the rights to use the name and license and play in the League vote, use their influence, have a say in how the League is run.
Steve and the other CC Pastors in the Association should do something to change the Rules of THEIR League.
“Furtick is one of them right? This is to me is a great example of the morphing from Moses Model to “Visionary” model for a pastor. It is sort of the same basic principal taken to a new level of arrogance.”
I don’t know to what degree Furtick is still cooperating with the SBC. He does not communicate with his local association, but he could still be giving to the Cooperative Fund. I know that Elevation got SBC money when they were being planted.
But yes, he would be one of the few who is sort of Moses to his congregation. His success makes it likely that others would want to follow his lead.
Well, that’s why CC and the NFL are not the same thing. its just a poor analogy. If the NFL is CC, then one local pastor would in now way be held resposible for bad actions on a different team.
RB in his CS way always avoids the replies to his questions. Last week or so he brought up the NFL things and I asked him if he thought that New England Patriots’ owner Robert Kraft could fly down to Dallas and remove Jerry Jones’ NFL logo?
For some reason he went silent … and it was his analogy.
This goes to who is culpable for the bad behavior? If you take the NFL example a bit farther and use your logic, why should the owner be responsible for the bad player’s behavior on his own team? He didn’t do it, it was the player that did it, right? However if the owner doesn’t do anything and sets no rules for his players, the best thing the players should do is leave. The same way if the NFL doesn’t have rules, than the teams should leave.
MLD, the MLD Owners were instrumental in getting Frank McCourt out as Dodgers owner b/c he was bad for the League.
Kraft is very instrumental in the NFL Association and if a fellow Owner molested a kid or committed child abuse etc, I imagine Kraft would get something done so it didn’t reflect on the Association he is a part of.
And that’s why it is a bad analogy. I’m not even talking about who should do what, just that the analogy is flawed to the point of actually making a point for the other side.
Q wrote: “I believe that some/many pastors come into CC with good motives but eventually they are challenged by the ‘board’; maybe on some small issue? Not wanting to give in, they realize their livelihood is in jeopardy; they then reach out to other CC pastors and quickly learn/adopt the Moses Model.”
Challenged by the board, or even challenged by people in other ministry positions that are smarter than the rest of the world, and insist on things done their way, and use power brokering to get their will done.
It happens a lot.
So the pastor sits up late at night, thinking, the reality is, the people that come to the church, are coming to hear the pastor teach. They usually aren’t coming just because the morning coffee is so fresh. And so why should the pastor be bullied into decisions that he is not comfortable with. Hence, Chuck Smith leaves Corona Christian Center, and goes to Calvary Chapel.
It obviously was blessed by God. And there is clear precedent in Scripture to do it that way, like it or not. The alternative is that a smaller or larger group of people take a vote, and push their will.
Of course every system will say, “we are led by Jesus, not by man”. They all say that.
I understand autonomous church polity. I actually really believe in it. Going after CC as the NFL League Office is spitting in the wind. I am sitting about 1 mile from The Panthers stadium. If I had an issue with them, I’d walk over there and solve. Take the police with me if necessary.
That’s the only way to affect change in CC; at the local church level. And guess what? That’s the only level that matters!
For instance, let’s say CC implements all these changes that we’d like to see them make. What stops a local pastor from saying, forget it, I’ll just take down the Dove? And if he does that, he goes right on molesting kids or whatever, and CC can say, “well, we did our part. We implemented these policies.” But its all bullcrap. Now, the people getting hurt have even less power to take out their abuser. But, if the focus is on the local church, then the guy has to take action. He can leave, repent, go to jail, or whatever.
“For instance, let’s say CC implements all these changes that we’d like to see them make. What stops a local pastor from saying, forget it, I’ll just take down the Dove?”
Well, then at least folks will know he’s different and not the same as another CC. Right now there are folks who go from a good situation in a CC (think Stupar) to a bad situation (think my step-dad) and they have no idea what they’re in for b/c they see CC on the building and CC gives the impression that all is well and that there is accountability at each franchise…when nothing could be further from the truth. It’s the wild west in CC and they give a different impression which is lying.
“To say the Franchise owners have no say in how their Association is run is naive or intentionally deceptive”
This is silly – the NFL owners have paid $100 million for the franchise and multiple millions to the NFL in initial franchise fees and then in rolling franchise fees.
CC and CCOF have not passed a dime between them. Just as the congregation has no say at a CC – the CC pastors have no say in CCOF
If CC implemented the changes I and others have called for, then I would personally feel I made a very positive dent to help protect kids in CC and to help prevent folks in CC who give their money from being conned and funding the CCSP’s lifestyle and family and friends (as is the case in many CC’s that have financial opacity).
At least if the finances are public, then the folks know where there money is going and then it’s on them. Right now, many are shocked when they find out the finances, then they are angry and should be…but good luck getting the truth and info out of a CC Moses Model Pastor.
If the people who are giving to a local church are not asking for transparency, then why does it matter? They are the ones choosing to give. I think transparency is important too, but then I choose to go to a church that is set up that way.
CC and CCOF have not passed a dime between them. Just as the congregation has no say at a CC – the CC pastors have no say in CCOF
___________________________________________________________________
Let me make it clear, I can’t defend Calvary, because I purposefully know very little about them. There aren’t any around here. I’ve never actually seen a CC live.
If the congregation has no say in the CC and only the pastor does, than the pastor and CC are basically one when it comes to responsibility. If CC franchises have no say in CCOF than the president of CCOF is responsible. Oh yeah, president of CCOF was Chuck Smith. So if Chuck Smith can separate himself from Chuck Smith than maybe I would agree with you MLD but unfortunately I don’t think we are going to see a lot in financial transparency anytime soon in CC. It will kill the whole gig in my estimation.
” but unfortunately I don’t think we are going to see a lot in financial transparency anytime soon in CC.”
People here on this blog are the only ones clamoring to see the CC books.
I keep saying that 99.99% of CC attenders are fat and happy and do not want to know how the sausage is made. i will be that the vast majority of people who have attended 20 plus years have never thought of looking at the books.
The McCoy thing should be simple.
If there’s a police report then there’s something to go on here.
If there is a police report, then we have a story.
If not, there are other things going on.
MLD, I care cause I have a heart for broken and abused people or those that will be broken and abused in due time. Normally I wouldn’t care so much how the sausage is made until I find out there is poison in the sausage killing people.
Andrew, if you really thought it was poison, you should be standing outside your local CC letting the unaware know – now writing here where most people agree with you.
You should also be letting the folks know that they are being abused – because they sure as heck don’t know it. 🙂
There is proof that my brother Paul filed a report with VPD and there is court testimony on my blog to such and even an acknowledgment that that report was lost…so that stuff does happen.
Andrew, if you really thought it was poison, you should be standing outside your local CC letting the unaware know – now writing here where most people agree with you.
There is open court testimony transcript on my blog of Paul addressing a report he filed and then an acknowledgment by a rep. from the PD that it had been lost.
Sending emails of allegations of sex abuse to a law enforcement agent and then getting no response would be big news if it could be shown that the emails are legit. At least the agency would have to give an answer as to how the emails got lost or ignored or unopened etc. and then revisit them at minimum.
He says they wouldn’t give him a copy of it. They wouldn’t give me a copy of the report I filed against my step-dad. We had to go to court to get them to give us a copy of the report.
…and you wonder why I’m skeptical when the CC pastor is also a chaplain and buds with the local Police.
I am a big supporter of law enforcement and love our locals here, but I am also not blind and stupid about long-time political friendships and loyalties and how that can play out sometimes.
Geez, got a few CC irons in the fire and three stores to run. But, CC could care less so someone has to. The Moses’s aren’t getting the message that you have to protect the kids and you have to report and you have to do the right thing…and it should be a part of the Association/Affiliation Contract to become a CC Franchise, but it still isn’t.
One of these days CC is going to get whacked hard like the RCC and then they’ll be forced to make changes or disband.
This isn’t going to go away, these CC guys are not going to get less prideful and keep saying there’s not a problem when there is a problem.
The person just contacted me. We will be talking after the person is off work today. It’s a real person. I have promised to help with the goal of finding the truth and seeking accountability and helping protect future kids who might face similar situations.
Even I felt embarrassed to be a Penn State alumni when the Joe Paterno / Sandusky scandal went down. How much more should a CC pastor feel some shame for advertising and propagating the brand, going to each others conferences and defending each other and their Moses Model doctrine without hesitation. However I don’t think Michael is enabling them. Michael was pretty hard on Steve Wright the other day.
It’s not awesome, but I know you didn’t mean it that way Josh. It’s really upsetting and makes me p.o.’d and disgusted. This is a person, not some number or butt in a seat or Salvation-scalp to hang on a wall.
If the so-called “church” cannot of its own free will get upset about this garbage and just keep saying “nothing’s wrong! no problem! No Moses Model here! All is well!” then I don’t want any part of that type of scum.
Ehh, scorched earth isn’t the way to go. If he does that, he only protects his own congregation. By staying and trying to be influential, he can help many congregations.
“I fail to see the wisdom in asking all the good pastors to evacuate and leave the group to the bad ones.
Makes no sense whatsoever to me.”
You are a walking talking contradiction.
You’ve told me it’s all going to disband, then you’ve said there is no changing the organization b/c there’s no central authority, then you claim Steve needs to say in the Org and make changes from the inside.
That’s fine, Steve and the others can be the men of poor character they are and not take a public stand for what’s right and do their thing quietly and politely and not make any waves or hurt any feelings and protect their numbers etc behind-the-scenes. I expect it men like them and I use the term “men” loosely.
I believe the group will disband.
However, there will still be churches run by pastors who will either have been influenced to do good things or they won’t have had that input.
I deal with things as they are today…and today I’m glad Steve is doing what he’s doing.
Today this is what we have to work with.
Steve, should Calvary Chapel Association require mandatory child protections and financial transparency as by-law requirements as part of the distinctives to become an official Calvary Chapel and part of your CC Association?
C’mon Michael, the guy pontificates and blusters about all sorts of stuff publicly, but suddenly he loses his voice when it comes to critiquing his own Association or publicly calling for good by-laws as a mandatory requirement to be a part of his Association.
I don’t know.
I have no idea who is in his regional meetings.
He’s publicly stated here that he advocates for these things in these meetings and I’ve seen some of his presentations.
I believe he’s making a difference.
I think that matters.
I fail to see the wisdom in asking all the good pastors to evacuate and leave the group to the bad ones.
Makes no sense whatsoever to me.
———————————————————————————————————–
Michael, Now when you say leave the group to the bad ones, what do you mean? If its just the bad that is left when the good guys leave, then that’s fine with me. At that point its just a bad group and hopefully all will see it for what it is. Now if there are only a few bad ones in an otherwise good group than I see your point. It would appear however, that if this were the case it would be real easy to get rid of the bad ones which is not the case. So I am not sure what the percentage of good ones is to bad ones but its probably close to 50/50 split. So with this in mind, I would encourage the good guys to get the heck out. That is not a good majority! However if people think the good guys have the majority than why can’t they rid out the back guys? It makes no sense.
I work from a presupposition that however all the leadership issues resolve that there will still be churches who are or who once were Calvary Chapels.
We’re not going to wake up and these churches and their pastors will have all disappeared.
I also work under the presupposition that like the SBC, etc, we will not see a central enforcement arm of the movement.
The liability risks are so huge that no one will want to be involved and autonomous local churches are the DNA of this group.
Therefore…any influence that can be brought to bear on each autonomous local church to institute these reforms is invaluable.
I do not work under the idea that this group will ever embrace full denominationalism or adopt any other ecclesiology.
That would be trying to accomplish something that will not happen and a huge waste of time.
What we can do is advocate those things which will help insure that kids are safe and abuse is reported.
In this structure…today…we have to do that by winning one pastor, one day at a time.
When a pastor is doing so, I’m going to support him wholeheartedly whether I agree with his doctrine or ecclesiology or not.
When this all settles, then there may be an opportunity to press for movement wide bylaws before affiliation.
Today, this group can’t even agree on it’s own distinctives.
Is Steve the last CC Pastor here?? I am an NFL fan. If you are then you know what it’s like to see a wide receiver go over the middle, jump and extend in an attempt to catch a pass. This leaves the receiver totally exposed for a defender to just lay him out with a vicious hit. As a result you hear about receivers afraid to go across the middle for fear of injury.
Whenever I have seen those hits I have tons more respect for the receiver who gets up after being laid out than I do for the defender who made the hit. Those hits are like low hanging fruit.
Steve is PP’s resident wide receiver who keeps getting laid out, getting up, brushing himself off, and staying in the game. I respect that a ton more than the ‘defenders’ who take those free shots as often as they can.
I too respect Steve for coming on here and still be willing to keep taking the punches but for what? This isn’t a CC affiliate. Steve shouldn’t be playing defense here. We need Steve on the offense in CC land which I have no way to tell if that is happening.
Andrew, this is an online community of believers and Steve is one among many. He enjoys participating and has done so for some time.
Steve does what he does out of personal convictions and is willing to dialogue. How many times do we have to read about him leaving CC and by doing so making some sort of statement? Those questions go back many years here with others than Steve.
As far as Steve being on the offense that’s up to him. I really don’t understand what you mean by offense.
To me it’s pretty simple. If Steve is going to stay as a CC pastor then just leave the poor guy alone.
Many people were eliminated by denigration, they rather keep their conscience and ability to reason. Probably the reason they do not go back and turn on the lights when they can.
So interesting that people want to demand that Steve do what they want him to do all the time, but they lack the courage to return and fight the fight themselves.
You have no rights in CC. That is ridiculous.
That is like me saying I should have a say in the English Parliament.
“…sort of like a certain guy who wrote some stuff and nailed it to a door.”
Not even close – he stayed – you didn’t.
He appeared before them in their Diets and in their courts – hashing things out – he did not bug out.
He made his views known face to face when he could – not a blog
You guys should show up at the entrance to the Bible College when they have the SPC this year – with signs and bull horns – demanding change … it’s your inalienable right 🙂
What’s this “we” – none of you are a part of CC and have even less rights to ask questions or point fingers
___________________________________________________________________
The greater body of Christ has the right and duty to watch after kids being abused and raise the out of bounds flag when groups such as SGC, RCC, CC don’t police their own. MLD I am glad to see the Lutheran church taking a stance but don’t think for a second that just because you don’t communion with certain Christian groups that we don’t have a responsibility to raise the out of bound referee flag.
To me to come on here and demand to see Steve do something that would convince you he is doing something to reform CC when you aren’t even a part of CC is like some kind of weird internet voyeurism.
Steve is in CC.
He is working at reforms.
Michael says this all the time.
Well, deal with it.
Or get your own b
That is a tactic that Jackie Alnor took with my church and pastor.
I have no need or requirement to do anything beyond what I do, in secret.
I shall opine freely about that which I believe needs change.
Teddy Roosevelt said this once about the man in the arena. This may describe Steve.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
This probably describes Michael also … the rest of us are spectators.
MLD, I think this describes what Steve says and thinks about himself. I’m not usually impressed by self evaluation but I hope you are right. And if Michael and you give Steve a thumbs up than I guess he is good to go.
G,
My #305 says exactly what I think about your “call” for reforms.
Steve can take you on advisement, but you really have no say in the organization.
When you rejoin CC and decide to really fight injustice then post the pics.
But, what I see on here is a full scale assault usually on the one person in the organization who is visibly doing anything to correct the problem.
So, how are you helping reform CC?
there are many of us who have been here before you, before Wright, before RiBo, who have supported Michael’s efforts, who have comforted those who showed up here asking if it was OK to tell their stories, of their disillusionment with TheCCMovement. We have comforted them, welcomed them, and we will not forget, and that CC which we each knew remains dear to us and we want better for her as a church, that her lampstand be bright and not darkened
Not asking for pie in the sky.
I am talking real stuff.
Since you aren’t CC, I don’t see how you are reforming them.
Right now this year how are you reforming CC, G?
Gentlemen, you are better than this.
You all love the church and the people of God and I consider you all my brothers.
We disagree on methodology…but I believe we all want to see the Body safe and healthy.
G and I have been friends for years…MLD and I have been at it for years… 🙂 I hope if I keep doing this for more years that you all become as much a part of my life as they are.
Let’s take the heat down and bring some light.
Th#325 is such the answer I expected from someone who doesn’t even realize that the phrase has nothing to do with balls and all to do with real courage.
Gonads, for real G? Are we acting that “ignorant”?
back to reform, there are literally millions of people who have been through church grinders, who have come out as survivors, who are telling their stories. They are no more required to rejoin those churches to have a voice than are any others who have left unhealthy groups.
I commend Wright for remaining with his affiliation, but I agree completely with RiBo that reform is needed and I would cheer loudly if Wright were to make a public stand and call out fellow members of his affiliation to join him and make the same reforms he has instituted.
Out of respect for our women friends and posters, I will address 330 using a non-physical redefinition, let’s call it, “intestinal fortitude”, which is demonstrated by seen and unseen actions.
I choose to work and influence those who will listen, friends and acquaintances, to question freely and seek reform within their churches. I rarely bid them to leave, often encourage them to seek dialog and redress, and work to make change which they feel is needed.
I get it that Wright is doing the same thing in varied degrees, which I applaud.
May God continue to strengthen him in his efforts both visibly and invisibly.
May his “intestinal fortitude” increase and inspire those within his influence.
Why is it not enough for Steve or me to lead our congregations in a Godly fashion? I believe every church CC or otherwise should have child protection policies and financial transparency. Because of that, the only church I have authority over does. When asked I tell people what I think. I was called to lead one church in one city, and so I will. Alex Griener feels a calling to make those policies standard in every church in America (starting with CC) – good for him, he should fulfill that calling. But I don’t expect him to fulfill my calling, and I don’t see why I am expected to fulfill his.
If ( |o )====:::, Andrew, and Alex Griener want to change policies at churches, maybe they should meet with local pastors and have a polite conversation offering some simple commonsense guideline changes and see how many are willing to make changes.
Attacking people online who have the policies you want, calling them less than men, and being an all around pain in the butt isn’t really working. As has been pointed out, most of the Calvary pastors have left here because it is a waste of time and energy to have the same discussions over and over again – and in the end be treated like a piece of trash as in the following comments of Alex:
#216 delusional or intentional jerks
#278 men of poor character (using the term men loosely)
Gee, I wonder why Calvary pastors don’t spend time here?
“Why is it not enough for Steve or me to lead our congregations in a Godly fashion?”
Because, left to no oversight, churches have only the peer influence of other pastors who have a vested interest to stay uninvolved in church polity.
It needs to be said, Calvary Chapel is structured, by ChuckSr, as an affiliation of Senior Pastors of individual “independent churches”, not an affiliation of “the local common people” who are your donors.
Because of that, any concerns voiced by persons who are not peer Senior Pastors are easily dismissed as those individuals “not hearing from The Lord” or being “in rebellion” or “not submitted to the shepherd who God appointed for them as overseer”.
Those individuals are cordially invited to simply vote with their feet, leave, and viewed as those who “The Lord has moved on” and any concerns raised are easily ignored.
You made this statement, “I believe every church CC or otherwise should have child protection policies and financial transparency. Because of that, the only church I have authority over does.”
Shaun, that is excellence in practice and example! You care in the unique position to influence the other Senior Pastors within your movement to adopt these common-sense safeguards, and I hope you tirelessly influence others in your position.
You state, “I was called to lead one church in one city, and so I will. Alex Griener feels a calling to make those policies standard in every church in America (starting with CC) – good for him, he should fulfill that calling. But I don’t expect him to fulfill my calling, and I don’t see why I am expected to fulfill his.”
Ok, fair enough. You are both men who are equipped uniquely for the good works you are called to fulfill. May God increase each of you in your influence, and may you view yourselves as colleagues, perhaps not today, perhaps not tomorrow, but soon, before you miss the blessings which God has for each of you.
Shaun said, “Attacking people online who have the policies you want, calling them less than men, and being an all around pain in the butt isn’t really working.”
It’s working to the tune of 6 million blog hits and counting and being contacted by all sorts of CC abuse victims, Chuck Smith’s own family members and many many folks and then telling their stories and helping real victims of abuse in CC.
Don’t tell me many in CC and elsewhere aren’t much more aware of the abuses and the need for changes, at least the fact there is someone watching and ready to report it when they go sideways.
…and eventually CC is going to get whacked like Catholic Church since your Association doesn’t do what it should to protect kids and there are victims and there are similar stories of cover up and toleration of this sort of thing in CC and hiring guys with prior issues but saying their healed or whatever only to re-offend.
It’s not a matter of if but when and I’ll be watching for the rest of my life until or unless some real changes are made.
To address this, “If ( |o )====:::, Andrew, and Alex Griener want to change policies at churches, maybe they should meet with local pastors and have a polite conversation offering some simple commonsense guideline changes and see how many are willing to make changes.”
Hey, I’m just a guy who spent decades with Calvary Chapels, if my opinion has no value, so be it.
But, influence happens in many forms. The fact that you’re reading, considering, acting and discussing with others means I am reaching someone who is certainly in a position to bring reform.
MLD said, “What’s this “we” – none of you are a part of CC ”
Bull shiite muslim.
I’m a product of CC, grew up in CC, gave blood to CC (metaphorically). I’ll always be a part of CC. I was literally born into it, my dad, my step-dad, my mom all CC, lived on The Land in Shiloh, married by CC, baptized the first time at CC, walked forward at CC, rededicated a zillion times at CC, learned my first theology at CC etc.
I won’t go now b/c the bulk of the CC pastors I’ve seen are not very bright, over-confident for the very limited skillset and talent they actually possess, their church govt. Moses Model is b.s., the finances are opaque and most of the money funds the overhead and the pastor’s lifestyle and very little helps real people other than “the great words from the anointed pastor!” and they don’t have mandatory child protections in place so your kid could be being overseen by a child predator.
Shaun said, “If ( |o )====:::, Andrew, and Alex Griener want to change policies at churches, maybe they should meet with local pastors and have a polite conversation offering some simple commonsense guideline changes and see how many are willing to make changes.”
What I am going to do is report the abuses and bad practices and have a page for every CC on my blog and they can comment whether or not they have good practices in place and what they are doing to be different than the norms I’ve encountered.
Folks will find the pastors and churches when they search…and more stuff will come out and while it’s not ideal and would be much better if CC Association provided its own accountability, it will have to do.
#342 – I never said your opinion had no value, and apologize if it came across that way. My point was polite conversation with practical solutions spoken to people who need them and are willing to listen are more valuable than the vitriol spewed towards those who are not guilty. The people you want to change aren’t here.
The only reason this blog has had any impact on me is because I believe the voice of dissent can be very valuable. Most people have enough common sense to stay away from places where a number of those present hate you, and everytime you comment you will be attacked. For Steve and I to spend time here shows that we care for the causes and the people here – even those who see us as the enemy.
CC pastor Shaun said, “My point was polite conversation with practical solutions spoken to people who need them and are willing to listen are more valuable than the vitriol spewed towards those who are not guilty. The people you want to change aren’t here.”
Who knows if you guys are guilty or not, time will tell.
McCoy presented himself as squared away and it looking like that isn’t the case.
Same goes for many CC pastors with similar issues as more and more info comes in.
Polite is no longer an option, polite and $5 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.
Don’t mess up or I’m sure I’ll eventually hear about it. Don’t cover up for child abuse in your church or be corrupt with your finances. Eventually your sin might find you out.
Shaun instituted ministry at his church years ago reaching out to those struggling with mental illness. He did so although that type of ministry wasn’t and still isn’t common in CC’s. For me personally that is a huge thing. A man willing to do that type ministry is a man who has a heart for people and speaks volumes.
Wouldn’t it be something if we were to learn that God is pleased with what Steve and Shaun are doing as they seek to minister to HIS people? Maybe they don’t need instructions and ideas in pastoring their churches because they are doing things the right way??
“McCoy presented himself as squared away and it looking like that isn’t the case”
Big charge with just 1 allegation from an anonymous source.
You toss out these claims as if they are true right off the bat.
Let me ask you something – if you find no wrong doing are you going to write an article on you blog, calling out Concerned for making false allegations?
MLD, I have more of the story and I know the person to be real and named and she says she’s going to come forward and take this on. She’s extremely credible. McCoy and CC are in big trouble over this one. They did the wrong thing IMO and now it’s time to face the music.
Brodersen’s in some hot water as well and there’s now another couple of CC issues coming in that will be dealt with eventually. I am inundated right now and just doing my due diligence and seeing where it all goes but it will eventually get reported on, all of the above.
“Let me ask you something – if you find no wrong doing are you going to write an article on you blog, calling out Concerned for making false allegations?”
When you find out who this person is and what position they hold, you will probably regret this comment. Nah, no you won’t b/c you’re trolling.
So as usual you did not answer the question -” if you find no wrong doing are you going to write an article on you blog, calling out Concerned for making false allegations?”
RiBo, Polite is always an option as far as conversation with you and Shaun and any other CC pastor. Just make the decision to be polite and it would serve you well.
I am all for bringing to justice anyone who would molest a child. I have seen up close and personal the devastation it brings upon the innocent victim and how that devastation follows them into adulthood. It impacts marriages and the children of the molestation victims. It’s a heinous crime.
I imagine that for some who read here just seeing this topic brought up triggers all sorts of buried emotions and memories. That being the case it behooves us to tread carefully in how we discuss molestation.
As this seems to be a topic you are dealing with I hope you have links for any victims who visit or read your blog that can be of help to their well being. That includes secular and christian professionals depending on the needs/desires of the victims. If just one person is helped then it’s all worth it. Even if none are you know you tried.
That is not to say that you aren’t helping anyone as it is. I hope you are because the damage is so profound and these victims need support. They need it desperately.
I disagree with your tactics (no surprise there) towards CC and CC pastors but the bottom line is I desire to see these victims helped.
As I have no idea of the things Shaun and Steve deal with in their private lives the same is true for you. I don’t know the details of all of the communication you receive and how it might drive or even overwhelm you at times. I’m sure you deal with life issues as all of us do and there’s more to you than the man who so easily pi**es off so many people.
I try to help victims with what I do. I read their stories and it’s heartbreaking. So I do what I can to try to make a difference. Knowing I try is enough for me.
It puzzles me how people whose goal is to help others can butt heads so much. I guess that’s life in the real world although I’m convinced communication face to face is more productive than sitting at our computer and typing away.
I’m off to watch the third installment of Lord Of The Rings. Good night.
“I’m convinced communication face to face is more productive than sitting at our computer and typing away.”
Not really, not with regards to meeting face-to-face with Chuck Smith, his attorney and Dave Rolph…though the Bob Caldwell meeting was productive and it was face-to-face.
Morning Michael… I think the link is wrong… it goes to the church history entry from earlier. (you can delete this)
Here is the link http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/february-web-only/change-calvary-chapel-chuck-smith.html
GG, Paige…thank you.
I have it fixed now.
I find the article very refreshing and encouraging!
Well, what sayest thou? At first reading, it sounds good…. time will tell.
Like this comments of Brian’s :
“Confusing the United States of America with the church is part of the problem.” so agree.
Also like the comment about “the mission field is coming to us”…. yes.
Immigration is a huge issue in SoCal….
I feel his comments on both Muslims and Gays are thoughtful and not canned. IMO
I am not one who was burned per se by CCCM, (but by a local ‘branch’.) I have some issues with some of the typical CC stuff, but Brian’s comments give me hope that at least some change is possible…..as if my opinion about anything is of any value to anyone. 🙂
Interesting. Thanks for posting it!
I’ll comment on it later…I have to go to a cattle call, er, job fair. 🙂
I think that this was a good article but it was a bit light in terms of the issues that concern people. I for one like Brian and I think that he would have handled the difficult questions just fine.
Sovereign Lord, please open doors of meaningful and prosperous employment for my brother, Your servant, Michael. Amen!
Paige’s number 8. Yes, Amen.
Covered,
I think you may be speaking of the questions you want answered. I am sure that the readership of CT knows much about CC.
Biting my cyber-tongue. Things aren’t always as they seem on the surface.
These guys live in another universe. Reality is much different than the perception, often.
Softball questions as usual, this might as well be a Press Release for Calvary Chapel and Brodersen.
Not much truth and ‘news’ anymore, just competing propaganda and PR.
oops! ” I am sure that the readership of CT knows much about CC.
Should have read ” I am sure that the readership of CT does not know much about CC.”
In other words – the CT readership is not asking the questions.
“The Calvary Chapel movement is known for the so-called Moses’ model of leadership. Is this as prevalent as some say?
It’s exaggerated by people on the outside and by the disgruntled. At Calvary, Chuck Smith was the senior pastor and operated as a person who believed God called and guided him. Coming out of the denominations as he did, he didn’t want to have his hands tied. The Moses model that you find at Calvary is Chuck’s way of explaining leadership. It’s certainly not a required model. People do not understand that, even people within Calvary Chapel itself who say, “Well, we’ve got to do our church government like this, right?”
Call me on the outside and disgruntled.
Papias – You left off an important part of that answer (on 2nd page of the link)
“Well, no, you don’t have to. This is just the way Chuck did it.”
The Moses model that you find at Calvary is Chuck’s way of explaining leadership.
———————————————————
Chuck’s way of explaining leadership.
Chuck’s way of explaining.
I have said this over and over, with the additional comment (including when Chuck was alive) that the term is a horrible term to use. Just lousy.
Good to see Brian make this point in the article.
I disagree MLD, as RiBo put it they were softball questions. Why not ask about new reforms toward discipline for rogue pastor’s? Why not ask about what direction the leadership is headed especially in light of Bryson being “set free”? How does Brian see changes going forward with transparency in financial reporting etc? These are not just questions that I have and I think that Brian would have answered these types of questions with no problem and may even have considered these types of questions as an opportunity. Again, I don’t hate CC and I think that Brian is a man who isn’t a “man pleaser”.
covered,
So what do you think CT’s motive was for writing a fluff piece? I say it is to sell magazines and that the readership of CT as I said earlier knows nothing of church problems and issues – they want fluff and demand fluff.
So, I stick by my comment – the questions you want asked are not the one’s that the CT readership wants asked.
Chuck’s way of explaining of leadership + the Moses model = The model of leadership as modeled by Chuck and passed on to all those who follow the CC model of ministry.
While it wasn’t the ONLY way to do leadership, you cannot say that any other way was modeled or appreciated. Every other form of leadership was downpplayed. Only the Moses model was held up as the way to lead a church.
Papias, You made an incomplete quote. I added the missing part. I assumed it was an oversight on your part since it does require a 2nd click to find it (poor formatting by the CT guys)
As to my 2nd post – I am saying NOTHING more than what Michael has said multiple times around here. The title is poor, but the model is not new at all, nor unique with Chuck.
MLD, I mean no disrespect to such an elderly man as yourselt but you are mistaken 🙂 If you google “Chuck Smith said touch not God’s annointed” you will see that it was CT magazine who CS was being interviewed by. CT is well aware of the issues within CC and they had an opportunity to either ask the hard questions or give BB a pass and they did the latter. But again, I think that BB would have done well if given the opportunity.
covered,
You missed my question then – what was their motivation for a fluff piece instead of one more in the lines of investigative journalism?
Something must have motivated their choice. Perhaps there was much backlash to the lasr CS article so they went soft
I agree MLD. I also think that it was a missed opportunity for both. My point is that CT is aware of some of the issues and there are many more people than myself who would like to see changes toward reform.
covered,
I agree, but that is not CT’s issue – their mission, and rightly so, is to sell magazines and advertising – Not monitor church behavior.
Softball questions were probably due to the last time CT interviewed PC, and he gave the statement:
“During the investigation for this article, Smith cautioned CT’s reporter: “The Lord warns, ‘Don’t touch my anointed. Do my prophet no harm.’ I think that you are trying to do harm to the work of God. I surely wouldn’t want to be in your shoes.”
From here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/march/7.53.html?paging=off
Some of you guys just want blood as usual. The article specifically links to the Rob Moll article from 2007, while mentioning again the movement’s history of scandals and lawsuits.
You find me a media outlet in this world that is doing a so-called “puff piece” and finds it necessary to link to a 7-year-old critical article by an entirely different author. You think when the Post writes a fluff piece about Obama they link to old O’Reilly or Krauthammer columns?
The discerning reader of both will note that in those 7 years the iceberg apparently spawned another 200 churches (15 percent growth)
I do like the idea that since Brian is new and looking to find his way maybe it’s okay to not go too hard on him. Maybe later they do a follow-up and go that route. Just a thought.
It will be refreshing to watch Brian lead Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa in the way that God tells him, being the senior pastor whom God appointed through the laying on of hands by Chuck SmithSr. If Brian dares have Rick Warren drop by it’s surely a sign from God of fresh fire 😉
I don’t want any blood. I am honestly excited for fresh air to blow through the place.
Maybe even ChuckJr might drop by?
One can only hope. 🙂
My comments;
75% bull hockey.
First, it offers up Brodersen as the new leader of the movement.
Ain’t gonna happen.
The CCA is split 21 ways and is hardly functional.
The Moses Model was published and exposited at length as the Calvary way, not just Chuck’s way.
Last, I have a pile of stuff getting larger by the day that says Brodersen may be the new manager at Home Depot by this time next year.
Steve, I hope that your blood comment wasn’t directed at me who also happens to be the one who brought the 2007 piece up in rebuttal to something that MLD said. If your comment was directed at me, you need to go back and read everything that I posted.
“Brodersen may be the new manager at Home Depot by this time next year.”
I prefer Lowes, but, hey… 😉
So much for the idea that God places a man into a pastorate and that it’s up to a church to follow her “Moses”
The Moses Model was published and exposited at length as the Calvary way, not just Chuck’s way.
————————————————————-
Yes, and you yourself Michael have written over and over that it was a stupid term to describe a common form of church government that certainly was not original or unique to either Chuck Smith or Calvary Chapel.
CC does own the term…a dumb term…a term now jettisoned for the most part. Thankfully.
He faces tremendous opposition and they are crafting a dirt pile to bury him in.
He may or may not deserve it.
Time will tell.
So, would the congregation of CCCM be in disobedience to The Moses Model pastor that God has appointed over them, or would Brian be in disobedience to God for reforming CCCM’s community according to what Brian believes God is leading him to do?
Yep, this will be a great song for The Spin Doctors, “Two Princes”
This one wants to being you flowers…
This one wants to talk for hours…
Steve,
My issue is that Brodersen was trying to make it sound as if it’s been an optional part of the movement…when I first started CC guys would come on by the dozens to defend it.
It was the Calvary way.
I hope it’s gone for good.
Michael – your 37 is fair. I think it was a stretch to downplay it as not the only CC way and I would have answered more like I have stated above.
But nobody is going to ask me 😉
Basically Broderson is sitting in a seat that many aspire and few succeed. Following an icon is a fool’s errand in most instances. Sometimes there is a ‘son’ who gets an even greater name than the father but that is pretty much reserved for Jesus.
BD is right, look how it turned out for Joel Osteen 🙂
One thing that ChuckSr never anticipated is that he would die before TheRapture.
The Distinctives that ChuckSr used made no room for succession, and that’s a fatal flaw of TheMovement. It, sadly, denies the reality that every person dies and how we prepare for that and how we prepare our family for that says everything about our grasp of reality.
Wise words G.
CC does own the term…a dumb term…a term now jettisoned for the most part. Thankfully.
_____________________________________________________________________
I agree it is dumb. But it not just a term. Its a philosophical model of church government explained in the distinctives of which Calvary Chapel based affiliation on. Maybe the term is no longer used but not sure what has changed philosophically. It seems affiliation is determined regionally by the leader in that region from the 21 elite pastor panel in CCA.
Dread said, “Sometimes there is a ‘son’ who gets an even greater name than the father but that is pretty much reserved for Jesus.”
Or the Manning’s LOL.
Overall good article by Brian. Whether you agree or disagree with the plan of succession, a modified 21 man elder led movement was created but with “pastor led” independent churches at the local level. Blessed to know now our Brother Brian mentioned that an elder led local church is not incompatible model in order to be in fellowship with the movement. This said whether we are “Moses led” or plural elder led, only Christ occupies the throne, not man.
I forgot my main manning!
Please forgive me, it has been an awful day and a frustrating experience. But the article, Gag, I mean in any other industry this type of nonsense would not even rank a blurp in the local tabloid. I dont mean this against Pastor Brian personally but man they take themselves so seriously with all this deep penetrating “thought”. I still remember the twaddle Pastor Chuck regurgitated at Lonnie Frisbee’s memorial service, talk about gall, and people say Im proud and arrogant. I could not hold a candle to some of these guys with the flowered shirts at the “profit (cies)” conferences thinking the Jesuits were coming to take us away and other such complete unmitigated nonsense. They hock their books and dvds until the next invented “crisis”. GAG. I am not reacting just to the article and like I said this is emotionally driven but I grow tired of it. I mean when I first saw Doug Phillips of vision forum fame I thought, I mean this two minutes into his shtick, Tool. In fact we needed to add a wing onto the tool shed for this guy, same with Gothard, Bob Lar$on etc. I mean these guys are given a pass on so many levels and still rake in the dough. I mean we have a real pastor running this blog and other real pastors like, yes Steve Wright etc doing the work of the Lord and yet the clown car evangelists are the ones that keep running us into the gutter. Again not directed at Pastor Brian.
I hope this makes some sense it just truly upsets me I mean their are pastors telling parents that their kid is possessed and is a witch in some nations and these kids are abandoned. That is just stupid, on its face, no question. Kids cant be possessed, if they can then what ever God allows that should not be worshiped just repudiated. Kids are just that kids. Again thanks for letting me vent, much of this is emotionalism and rhetoric.
I forgot to take my passive/ aggressive medication sorry. 🙂
Joel Osteen, is the only person in recent memory, that superceded his fathers mega church success.
Wow, Brian sounds like he is rejected a lot of Chuck Smith “advice” and whatnot, over the years. He sounds kind of bitter and angry and arrogant. To me, anyway.
Reading between the lines also makes it pretty clear, from the start of page 3, that Brodersen’s Calvary Chapel will be ecumenical. Which pretty much destroys the distinctiveness that allured many of us to Calvary Chapel in the first place.
So, he’s wrong. Being ecumenical doesn’t make you culturally relevant. It just makes you watered-down and spiritually impotent. Even with a big crowd, a church can still be spiritually impotent. Ecumenicalism causes that.
Chuck Smith did have a gift from God to avoid this silly blabber which Brodersen is now spouting. Chuck Smith found a way to be separate from the rest, to teach the entire Bible without missing a single jot or tittle, and to still be culturally relevant. The two are possible to combine. Brodersen will eliminate the “separate from the rest” part, claiming that will make him relevant.
But without the Biblical separation, a church is in danger of becoming irrelevant to the Lord (see the letters to the churches in Revelation). Even if it is “relevant” to unbelievers.
You’re spot-on Andy. I’ll follow the Cloud, not the crowd and It’s moving on.
“Steve Wright: Some of you guys just want blood as usual.”
Typical CC pastor portending mind-reading, whenever there’s dissent you can control, take out the trump card – I’ll read your mind and make your guilty!!!! Or so they think.
Regarding 50 & 51
For those CC pastors and people who have a problem with what Brian is doing, as someone once said, “Don’t go away mad, just go away.”
Jackie wrote: “You’re spot-on Andy. I’ll follow the Cloud, not the crowd and It’s moving on”
Same here. The crowd is occasionally right (Acts chapter 2), but often the crowd is dead wrong.
Give Me a Break wrote: “For those CC pastors and people who have a problem with what Brian is doing, as someone once said, ‘Don’t go away mad, just go away.’ ”
Consider it done, mate. Enjoy the “Christian” blob where being distinctive is the only sin.
Andy must be a big Lutheran fan. The LCMS is totally non ecumenical and we won’t even do missions with other christians … and for good reason.
MLD wrote: “Andy must be a big Lutheran fan. The LCMS is totally non ecumenical and we won’t even do missions with other christians … and for good reason”
Not really. But I won’t get started, because I don’t think it would be too welcome here. Just suffice it to say, that it’s becoming less and less possible in “Christian” circles to say that someone or something, is wrong. It’s becoming less and less possible to outright say, this teacher or this doctrine, is just plain wrong.
Oh, they’ll let you say that homosexuality is wrong or stealing is wrong. That will always pass the test. But begin to say that certain teachers are wrong, and you become a personal non grata. Begin to point out the inconsistencies of theological positions in terms of how they don’t line up with Scripture, and they will call you unloving and a divider and not recognizing the need for doctrinal tolerance.
Or point out how each so-called “tribe” contradicts one to the next, from calvinist to catholic to orthodox to methodist to…. and so on, even on issues like salvation itself, and you will be called a hater of the “brethren”.
So the only answer to this is, either join the blob, and if you can’t stomach that (I can’t), then be distinctive. That was one of the original things that the first generation of Calvary Chapel did (and was hated for). They were distinctive.
Brodersen will kill all that.
Come on MLD, if your that big of a separatist, why do you hang around all of us sinners? You trying to convert us all to the LCMS?
Andy, you remind me of a pastor of a church I once attended. The “Calvary Way” or the highway. I chose the highway. Best choice that I ever made.
“There is no known factions or contingents of opposition. The congregation loves Pastor Brian. The staff is more unified than ever. Internal communication is getting better. And people are giving their life to Lord on a weekly basis. Like I said up top, we are doing well and having fun.” Happy, happy, joy, joy! Sing it again, with feeling! http://joshturansky.com/we-are-doing-well-and-having-fun/
Still lots of smoke and mirrors going on toward protecting the sheep from harsher realities of past & present, IMO.
I don’t think BB is one bit afraid of any plotting for his overthrow. Parties on all sides know too much about the others “failings” to be able to survive unscathed in any mudslinging contest. BB too adept in outward diplomacy combined with behind the scenes savvy. I might be wrong, but my view from the cheapseats.
I think both Xenia and I have asked “Why can’t CC be as ‘distinctive’ as they want without catching hell for it.”
Her Orthodox Church and my Lutheran Church are very distinctive – in fact my church does not have some 80 page booklet of distinctives but we have over 600 pages of Lutheran distinctives.
Someone doesn’t like our church being so particularly closed can go suck a lemon. 🙂
“Andy, you remind me of a pastor of a church I once attended. The “Calvary Way” or the highway. I chose the highway. Best choice that I ever made”
If you are happy with that, that’s your business, Give Me. It isn’t really the “Calvary Way” that I’m looking for, in reality. Before Chuck Smith, there was no “Calvary Way”. What Chuck Smith demanded, and got, was the right to say, “This teacher is wrong, this doctrine taught in these churches, are wrong”.
That is the way I will always demand for myself. And if there are those that can’t handle it, I will be hated, and that’s fine. I’m not looking for some persecution complex. I just want the right to point out what my Scripture reading and convictions tell me are wrong.
And it can be done in a loving way. But with some, no matter how loving you are, you are still hated for pointing it out at all. Which again, is fine.
Anne,
Trust me…the fun is coming to a screeching halt soon.
All those secrets will be out soon…
It probably should be pointed out, unless someone wants to argue against it, that Broderson has not inherited Chuck’s position as head of the movement, only his position as pastor of Costa Mesa. While it was arguable what sway Chuck held over individual Calvary Chapels, it seems pretty clear that Broderson has no significant power in the wider movement.
Josh,
True that.
Michael – I am thankful for you and others that make it damn near impossible to maintain the illusions of “no problems here” for very long. When “the screeching halt” in the fun begins, there will be lots of dead bodies on both sides, I’m afraid. There will be blood, as the movie title goes. May be the best thing to happen in the long run. The masks worn by those on all sides of the divisions being yanked by each other could be the healthiest, though painful, thing for CC’ers to see. If all sides remembered Jesus’ admonition that those without sin throw the stones, they’d be wise. I hold no inkling of hope such wisdom will prevail.
Anne,
I think that very soon Brodersens enemies are going “scorched earth” on him and the result will be scorched on both sides.
I’ve been told things in the last week that shook me up even after all these years.
The good part is that some of us will finally be vindicated, the horrific part is that some lives will never be the same.
Once the fire is finished, perhaps rebuilding on a better foundation can happen.
Or…things can end up much worse.
That is a good observation Josh and one of the reasons that there will be changes. Even though some argue that CS didn’t rule over the “movement”, now that there isn’t someone in that place, there’s room for change.
Anne, you have a grasp of the situation.
No significant power? Well, if true, it isn’t from a lack of trying to consolidate his position of influence not only at Costa Mesa but throughout the movement. He was 2nd in command, now 1st over all the bible colleges and other educational endeavors, cleaned house and oversees KWVE, position of influence in missions and church planting tied directly to control of educational projects, Calvary Distribution now under his oversight, etc etc. He’s been Into hyperdrive, on focusing on young people, mentoring them himself and with a loyal team a good 10 years or longer. Then there’s the impact of Cheryl on practically being the personification of women’s ministry throughout the movement.
Anee, mine is the take of a complete outsider. I could certainly be wrong, though it seems covered and Michael think similarly.
Annes #69 is true and very well done.
What that does is solidify his control over CCCM assets and provides a power base.
That influence doesn’t really extend beyond that, however.
No right or wrong, here, Josh. Just observations re: the storms that are brewing from different vantage points. If I were a gambler, I’d place my money on Michael’s “insider tips” though 😉 He’s been consistently spot on for many years now.
Anne’s sources are as good as mine… 🙂
Anne, I agree with your #69 but it seems that all that $ doesn’t help much if there’s no support or followers for his cause. Brian has always been very straight forward with me but his peers seem to have issues with him. Time will tell and maybe sooner than later.
The allegations are bad, very serious. Like Michael, I’ve been working on it too after being contacted. The CT piece is fluffy spin. Don’t believe it.
I’ve been told things in the last week that shook me up even after all these years.<<<
The allegations are bad, very serious<<<
—–
Well, this is certainly titillating.
I am really growing weary of "I know stuff so awful about CC that it would make your toes curl if you knew what I know, which I am not going to tell you."
I am increasingly convicted that this is tabloid journalism. Sure, maybe you do know "stuff." Maybe you trust those sources that are willing to slip you the dirt on their own churches. I have found that people that will snitch for you will just as easily snitch on you, so watch out.
And this "stuff…." What business is it for most of us? How many here are even connected with a Calvary Chapel anymore? I am increasingly convicted that I should not even be reading this stuff, much less offering an opinion. God bless Brian Brodersen and may he preach the truth and behave himself. That's all I have to say about him. Anything else… speculation and gossip.
Lent starts Monday. Maybe fascination with the gossip in CC-land will be one of the sins I repent of this year.
X no such thing. It’s that you can get sued so you have to be wise as a serpent etc.
I wouldn’t mention it if it wasn’t serious and wasn’t from serious sources.
I’m already getting sued (and will win eventually) and I’m just making sure I’ve got a strong case for CASP in case I get sued again so CASP can collect some of that Jesus money from those who collect it from those giving it to Jesus but then use it to fund lawsuits to intimidate and suppress the truth from coming out.
The stuff will come out in due time and those with the cajones to take it on will take it on out of principle. Count me as one of those.
Xenia,
I hear what you’re saying and sometimes it feels that way to me too.
On the other hand, I have many, many pastors and pew sitters who are friends of mine that all this stuff affects and they deserve to know whats happening.
As RiBo stated, we have to be very careful…there is huge money involved and we could be sued out of existence.
There is a further desire to protect people from unsubstantiated claims where merely the accusation could ruin reputations.
If I were only seeking numbers and salacious content, I could have had a hundred thousand today if I wished…but I’m trying to walk a fine and often smeared line here.
X said, “Maybe fascination with the gossip in CC-land”
It’s not “gossip” per the bible if it is true.
Gossip card is overplayed in the church. Much of Paul the Apostles epistles could be labeled “Gossip!” by the same standard the church often uses to keep things hush hush.
Michael, agreed, it’s never been about numbers for numbers sake, never will be (other than when you claim I was ruining your blog and causing your numbers to be bad, which isn’t true BTW).
The numbers, however, do validate that the efforts to make a positive dent do work to a degree despite the defeatism and nay-saying about swinging at windmills etc (not directed at you J.U. just in general).
Stand on principle whether the numbers show progress and effectiveness or whether they don’t.
Ironically, even the bible verse proof-text for “gossip!” is itself gossip by the non-biblical definition of “gossip” from the Greek.
2 Thess. 3:11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies.
“We hear…” Hmm, someone told Paul that others were doing something wrong…and Paul rebuked them and called them out on it…sounds like GOSSIP! LOL
Greek words used for “gossip!” and “busybodies!” and “tale-bearers!” is always in the context of intentional lying, not addressing issues and concerns that are the truth.
Did a study on it, but as usual the “church” will twist the words of “the bible!” to mean whatever they want it to mean.
No, the people were narcs for Jesus proving that the CC distinctives are God’s chosen plan. 🙂
Michael –
Honest question. Why the games here? I am leaning toward Xenia’s view on this.
You keep saying that you won’t say stuff online unless it is true, but here you are intimating that BB is worse than anyone else out there (#31, #35, #62). You smear his reputation with no presented facts and it almost sounds like you revel in the idea of the destruction that may come because you will be vindicated (#66).
#31 – Last, I have a pile of stuff getting larger by the day that says Brodersen may be the new manager at Home Depot by this time next year.
#35 – He faces tremendous opposition and they are crafting a dirt pile to bury him in. He may or may not deserve it. Time will tell.
#62 – Trust me…the fun is coming to a screeching halt soon. All those secrets will be out soon…
#66 – I think that very soon Brodersens enemies are going “scorched earth” on him and the result will be scorched on both sides. I’ve been told things in the last week that shook me up even after all these years. The good part is that some of us will finally be vindicated, the horrific part is that some lives will never be the same.
Shaun, you’re reading it way wrong. Privately Michael has lamented to me about the stuff and has been very skeptical of the motives behind the release of info…but the truth is the truth no matter who the person is who may have committed the issues Michael hinted at.
Me, my only concern is is it true. If it is likely true then some leaders need to give an answer and face the music…no matter how flawed or the motives of the messengers.
I’m learning that Michael is often reluctant in being the messenger.
The stuff disgusts him and he cautions me to be careful and to make sure the stuff is solid. He doesn’t do it just to do it. My impression is that he does it b/c not many else will deal with it.
There are no Hero’s in any of the CC stuff. It’s a big pile of doo that Chuck and CC Association etc scoop up, put it in a nice pretty box with nice pretty wrapping paper on the outside and a nice pretty bow on top and show the veneer to the public.
The private, the secret life of CC, the real stuff…is the poop in the box that the public hardly hears about.
In fact, you guys are lucky Michael has matured and considers some of you CC guys as friends. If it was me, there’d be none of you on here acting like you’re “good” and not part of the problem by promoting a bad Brand and then claiming there’s nothing you can do about it.
Shaun,
Some of these allegations have already been on social media.
I have not reprinted them here.
If you would like me to unload the files on here then say so.
After I saw these allegations I was in contact with people who told me of other allegations and the depths that some will go to in order to become victorious.
I honestly got sick.
I hate this stuff.
What I resent is the fact that it’s covered and people like me end up being the messengers because nobody has the balls to do this in a forthright or remotely godly way.
All the way through I’ve used the term “allegations”.
Nothing has been proven to my satisfaction and until it is I won’t go there.
On the other hand, I’m not going to pretend that all is bliss.
I don’t much about Brian Broderson other than listening to him has to be the number one cure for Insomnia.
Shaun, likewise honest question here.
Why pull the guns out on this one? If memory serves, and this goes back through years of conversations on the other blog, and in person, you were never really a CC guy to begin with, and more or less had the church you are at dropped in your lap in a phone call and a couple meetings.
So this question really haunts me. Why do you persist in this? This aint even your fight. I know you have in the past taken a very passive stance on the whole “CC thing”. Is Chad and the boys at the other blog really effecting you to such a degree that you feel the need to defend the dove?
I have a very precise response to that. 99% of the talking heads there are full of s**t, and full of themselves. I do not perceive you to be the type who hangs well with that crowd.
Why the guns on this one? You have enough base and foundation to slip out the back door of this mess. I doubt Tom would fault you for that.
The discerning reader of both will note that in those 7 years the iceberg apparently spawned another 200 churches (15 percent growth)
_________________________________________________________________
I could shoot my muscles up with steroids and you would see lots of growth. Growth (numbers) is not equal to health.
“The discerning reader of both will note that in those 7 years the iceberg apparently spawned another 200 churches (15 percent growth)”
Even more reason to mandate commons sense Child Protection policies and Financial Transparency in the Calvary Chapel contract with Senior Pastors to get the permission to use the officially licenses name and logo, etc.
Shaun, if Calvary Chapel is “spawning churches” then that doesn’t sound “independent” at all. Would you describe it as more like a Parent Org contracting out Franchises via agreement?
“Spawning”…from a Calvary Chapel pastor. Thanks Shaun, I agree that’s what is really going on, Calvary Chapel births tons of new churches that aren’t previous churches that sign on in some sort of nebulous Affiliation, the vast majority of the CC’s are started fresh as Calvary Chapels in a franchise-type construct.
I can tell you that the loneliest times in my life have been at CC Pastors Conferences. (I never did become “affiliated”). They were/are some of the coldest, most uncaring individuals I have ever met. Most wouldn’t give me the time of day. One year I went with four other CC Pastors. They made the room plans, but “forgot” to include me, so I stayed in a room with two other guys (who didn’t give me the time of day, because they did not know me).
We were told to keep the doors locked, but one of them would leave the sliding glass door unlocked because he was too lazy to walk around to the front of the cottage (he got upset with me for locking it behind him – and this guy had the responsibility of pastoring a church? really?). Also, instead of respecting each others towels, he just helped himself to everyone else’s. When I asked him about it, he played dumb (really wasn’t too hard for him).
One afternoon after a study session, I called one of the pastors I came with on his cell phone to see what they were doing. They all went into town for dinner without me. Gee, thanks guys.
I honestly tried to get to know several pastors at the conferences, introducing myself. You would of thought I was pond scum. (One year, Chuck commented at the end of one of the sessions (at CCCM, where the congregation was invited to attend the evening sessions), that they US guys needed to open up and take the time to talk with the guys from Europe, as he was receiving comments that the US guys wouldn’t take the time to talk to those they did not know.
One year (in Austin), one of them asked me what I thought I was doing at the (region) conference? Shocked, I told him I was invited by the host pastor. To which he replied, “Well, I suppose that you are elder ruled also?” Before I could answer that I rewrote the by-laws giving my elders the authority to fire me for character and doctrinal reasons, he turned in disgust and walked away. Introducing myself to another pastor and telling him where I pastored, before I could say another word, the proceed to tell me in no uncertain terms that I could not receive affiliation because I was “elder ruled.” He didn’t know a thing about me.
But one of the most bitterest lessons I learned was never to disagree with a CC pastor. If you do, for any reason, you are shunned.
I must tell you though, that some like Mike Macintosh, Pastor Romaine, Gayle Erwin and a couple of others were/are some of the warmest and genuine individuals it has ever been my pleasure to meet. The others, not so much.
So, I am sure that some who comment here will call me “out for blood” because I have commented here. Even though this is the first time I have commented publically about this in over seven years.
Why would I comment now? Well, things have come a long was since the tent. Too bad.
“Last, I have a pile of stuff getting larger by the day that says Brodersen may be the new manager at Home Depot by this time next year.”
I have heard the same…
Randall, it’s always good to see you…I wish you visited more often.
Oh Randall…. Your story hit home. I remember once sitting in a Women’s Ministry meeting and I was in the middle of an interior struggle, unbeknownst to any of them. All of the sudden I put my head down on the table and began to cry my eyes out. These women, my supposed friends, just stared at me. Never said a word. After a few minutes I recovered myself and they continued on with the meeting as if nothing ever happened. No one asked what was troubling me and there were no follow-up phone calls. What kind of philosophy of ministry produces people like this….
I was a CC pastor’s kid so I got my butt kissed all the time like our family was some sort of celebrity or royalty. It is quite a cult-like dynamic. I am very glad to be out of it and well detoxed from the ccool-aid.
Randall–“…before I could say another word, the proceed to tell me in no uncertain terms that I could not receive affiliation because I was “elder ruled.”
“But one of the most bitterest lessons I learned was never to disagree with a CC pastor. If you do, for any reason, you are shunned.”
These are the things I say, but get hammered and told I’m wrong. Yet, we keep hearing examples of it.
Randall, I appreciate what you did for real accountability. I’m sorry for what those CC pastors did to you.
Randall, same here (as Chile)…you tried which is more than most and your public statement of your experiences validates a lot of what we’ve been saying.
Randall, I know what you mean! I went to more of those conferences than I can count and can believe every word you said. We had all the same old problems at our local CC as everyone else, but it was going to those conferences that really opened my eyes over time to how messed up this all was.
Went to a CC in the southwest in the early 90’s that was elder led for what I considered the “glory years”. In the mid-90’s the pastor gave two of the elders the boot and it changed to the standard CC structure and seemed to lose it’s luster to myself, but kept growing numerically. So the Moses’ model wasn’t necessarily the rule for CC, but it sure is tempting…
Randall and Chili,
I believe you. I even get hammered here when I’m at odds with the herd.
Xenia–“Maybe you trust those sources that are willing to slip you the dirt on their own churches. I have found that people that will snitch for you will just as easily snitch on you, so watch out.”
If Michael, or any of us, hardens into unrepentant sin, or disqualification from our posts, then I should hope people would snitch. It’s the right thing to do according to NT admonitions.
Chile, you must not have sent it to the correct email address. It is summer.joy62@gmail.com. I tested it and it works fine. No caps and don’t forget the dot after summer 🙂
I went to many retreats and conferences. Usually I was with some of my students or other people with disabilities being the “care provider”. Meds showers, helping in the bathroom, changing colostomy bags and such, making sure people drank enough, that they took their medication correctly, dealing with seizures, choking, breathing issues, heat frustration, a few UTI’s, a few allergic reactions, and so on. One time I went to one camp got handed a bag full of unmarked meds and some instructions written on the back of a post it note and said here deal with this. Well, that could be a major lawsuit if anything happened so I sat down with the med tec and nurse and wrote out a med dismemberment plan with the parents of the phone. Good think I did, that kid could have died. Yes they do die when you give them their meds out of order or mixed up. I never have because I am a paranoid so and so about those things. All my campers never got sick, not even a red from the sun and never even a mosquitoes bite.
Now these people were not evil or anything and they were very very kind to me but they were just so busy and extremely overwhelmed. I mean extremely overwhelmed and all they wanted to do was minister but the list I put up is just a few of the issues to consider. They showed these young people the greatest time and went all out. One story, I was not there but they brought a young man with a wheel chair to a camp and there was no access to cabins etc and know won even thought about it. So the entire camp changed and they spent part of their time building ramps and access just for this one person. I swear this young man was so moved even 20 years later. So I think when I went to some of these camps I got frustrated with those folks not listening to my yammering and I do yammer on. At times I took it like rudeness and being the psudo martyr I can be I took in the wrong way. I dont mean this concerning anyone else but I know I have to watch that about me.
Randall I am sorry that happened to you it is not ok for people to treat others like that. You seem like a very kind man and you love God so if it helps I apologize for those people. Thank you for sharing what you shared.
http://youtu.be/4hnBp7x2QAE
This is just to funny if you are a star trek fan. If you saw the original fight seen and just how hammy it was.
Randall you have a lot of “church” experience that I know of. And your words carry a lot of weight and credibility.
I spent more then enough time around those guys. If you are not in the inner circle you just are not in.
Anyone ever stop to think about why over all the years it was always announced that the speakers would be the same guys that spoke in the past. Never any new “Joshuas” only the same old tired names at the conferences and special events.
I will say that Raul R is a very good guy when it comes to new people and strangers. He is humble and sincere.
I am sad to hear of your own treatment by most of the others Randall.
Let me ask it this way, I am posting under an assumed name for reasons of privacy and I am just a coward. I helped take care of this lady back in they day in the institution she lived in. She was a very smart lady and I think we made a connection because I could look past what she did with excrement, and other bodily fluids. I was a very naive young “Christian” ( I no longer consider it honest to consider I was one of those with any honesty but I want to be), She dug into her skin, tore her hair out down to the root, no actually down to the skull bone sometimes. She would “smear” meaning she would decorate her living environment including herself with well, nevermind. But I was struck by her bright eye, not eyes as she had taken the other eye out with a fork during a meal before I arrived.
When I shared a few of these things it was clear she was demon possessed and I was given no manor of magic incantations to recite to free her soul. Non worked at all, not even a single time. What worked was medication and behavior modification techniques. Of course those are all, nope I deleted that rhetoric but the prayer had absolutely no effect at all. I lay that at my feet, as I did not pray hard enough of course God wanted her to rip her scalp out down to the bone and poke her eyeball out with a fork and other such instruments. I won’t go into where she places other objects because of decorum.
What I did learn, I worked a Thanksgiving weekend and I prayed (yes I do pray) and on that weekend we had no self injurious behaviors. We watched “Its a wonderful life”, ate good food and I made no pressure just prayed to be a servant. I know this instils the gag reflect, trust me I know that in spades when I have shared this before. OK I am looking for attention I want prayer, I want to seek peace. God kill me for such sins. I have even prayed that even tonight. But what I saw happen to that woman was wonderful. She found a few moments of peace and I hope into eternity. I admit I am an evil vile piece of human filth, my take on what I have been told about me. I get that. But I find this holy. This lady, she was the face of Jesus to me and still is. Sorry if this is emotionality clap trap. Not offered for the awe poor brian blabber, I deserve hell nothing else and I dont want it, offered for them, because they are far better than most of us.
Brian, I have a friend with a daughter like the woman you describe. It’s so hard. I just wish she could be free from it. I can’t imagine how you do it?
Here I am staying up nights this week to care for a sick child, but it’s practically child’s play in comparison.
” Last, I have a pile of stuff getting larger by the day that says Brodersen may be the new manager at Home Depot by this time next year.”
What makes you think Home Depot would hire him?
You all know my position. I wish just once that Michael would come on his blog and apologize for the titilating gossip he teases us with that always comes to nothing. He’s been crying wolf for so long I’m surprised he still has a voice. RIBO has zero credibility so don’t believe a word he writes. Bit Michael is an intelligent righteous man who serves The Lord faithfully in many ways just not when it comes to CC gossip and innuendo.
Michael lets b honest. The only reason u posted this CT article was to give you a thread to “reluctantly ” publish your latest “inside” DIRT on CC
I wonder if the real reason Chuck was upset at Brian leaving for the UK. Is because he would have to take Cheryl, Chucks daughter.
“What makes you think Home Depot would hire him?”
This is really funny -the whole thread is terribly disrespectful. Andrew (and Michael also) why do you doubt Brian B’s skills? Here is a guy who has spent his life preaching the gospel, he has led churches etc.
Andrew – do you think your pastor could get a job at Home Depot let alone mange one? I couldn’t, I have no trade skills.
The funny thing is you guys base everything on “I don’t like him” while all along holding almost identical theological views – I on the other hand have great theological differences in the man and would never suggest that I would like to see him lose his job.
In other words – WTF is up with all the glee about someone losing their job?
How short memories are.
I actually defended Brodersen when he was under siege from the Heitzig/Paul Smith/Bryson contingent.
He was the logical choice at that point to lead that church.
I also thought the direction the CCA was going was positive.
Since the writing of that article I have very good reasons to question the tactics and ethics on both sides.
In the last week or so, members of the extended Smith family clan have made allegations publicly and privately that could result in greater complications.
It’s a big, sick, sad, family business and at this point I really don’t give a rats ass about what people think about what I write…I just wish people would clean up their acts in the church.
You can publish anything on line anonymously, so why would you be afraid of being sued out existence, and if it’s true than why fear a lawsuit when it should be a welcomed opportunity to shine the spotlight on the problems that are rotting away the body and thus can be dealt with, so as that famous line goes, either put up or shut up!
“at this point I really don’t give a rats ass about what people think about what I write…”
Sure you do, otherwise you would not have responded.;-)
Onesimus,
I’m not anonymous.
I’ve always put my name right here and everyone in Calvary knows who I am.
Nothing funnier than anonymous posters calling me out for being allegedly anonymous.
When things are proven to me adequately I will post them…until then I will recognize and comment on the fact that the allegations are out there.
If it offends you, you have a mouse.
Michael – there are 2 sides to running a church. There is actually a business side to operating a church. Business is business – you still have a great responsibility to get the most bang for your buck (that would be Jesus money as RB says) otherwise you are not faithful to your congregation.
I tell people, do not get into a church leadership position if you do not want to see how the sausage is made.
Even I one who doesn’t share what goes on with either will say that the world – both Christian and secular is better off with things like KWVE radio and Word for Today publishing … but they do not get created or developed with your ‘churchy’ attitude -they are a business.
What happens with Word and Sacrament – that is the church part and from what I see, they have that down pretty good.
MLD,
Spare me the lecture.
My “churchy” attitude says that in both business and especially in the church, character matters.
Character is made a matter of critical importance in the NT definition of leadership and character is the issue here.
You are so set on opposing me that you have now stated that a group you left for theological reasons is good with Word and sacrament…you are a contrary man.
I am teaching through Daniel – his death warrant also was signed after he had only been on his job about one month.
“character matters.” You are the only one here judging character – unlike you, I have never met Brodersen nor the Smith family.
Michael, You said “You are so set on opposing me”
Not true at all – I oppose your tactics on occasion. This article is a prime example. The article and comments were good and perfectly legitimate until you threw out
“but if you only knew the truth, heads will roll and people would be shamed. But I can’t tell you the truth because people haven’t freed me to tell the truth. Well, I hope that the truth is the truth, because I want to tell you the truth, but I won’t know the truth until some of these anonymous people tell me if the truth is the truth. The truth has been publish already on social media but I am not going to tell you the truth. But if you hound me about the truth, do you want me really to lay if all out here? (a comment made to Shaun Sells.)”
Yes, some of us did oppose that.
“I don’t much about Brian Broderson other than listening to him has to be the number one cure for Insomnia”
No kidding. He led a conference at the castle in Austria that I was at in the past, and I had never heard him before. Dry as dirt. Didn’t feel the Holy Spirit at all. His speaking made me irritable. At that time, I was still in the “CC can do no wrong” mentality, and I remember thinking, “This guy can’t be CC. He’s boring and has nothing to say at all”.
But maybe it was the conference thing that caused that reaction in me. I always hated the conferences. Pastor’s conference, associate pastor’s conference, worship conference, men’s ministry conference, women’s ministry conference, children’s ministry conference, evangelism conference, missionary conference, couple’s conference… on and on and on and on and on….
MLD you wouldn’t know Character if it raped you and made you its prison buddy.
You are a former Jew (and maybe racial Jew?) who apologizes for Martin Luther’s “On Jews and Their Lies”…talk about a Character deficit.
Of course Shaun opposed it, he’s a Calvary Chapel pastor and has his hopes that BB is the savior that will resuscitate the bad Brand.
Michael likes or liked Brodersen. He was rah-rah privately for awhile…but these allegations are so serious that if true no one should like BB.
wow!!! taking a shot from RB only reenforces that I am right.
btw, Hitler thanks you from the grave for not blaming him. (my last comment on Luther killing all the Jews in WW2.
Andy:
” Dry as dirt. Didn’t feel the Holy Spirit at all. His speaking made me irritable.”
I don’t know BB, but I understand your comment.
Interestingly years ago I was studying Jonathan Edwards and found out he was considered one of the most boring speakers ever. It was said he would get up in his church and just read his sermon in a dull monotone manner and yet he is credited with leading the birthing Nation into the “Great Awakening.” At one point he was even removed from his position as pastor at his church because of his uncompromising position on some subjects.
In history we all remember JE for his sermon, “In the hands of an angry God,” and consider him one of the the most Holy Spirit inspired speakers.
My point is some really boring people have some really good things to say from God. Not everyone can be a cool aloha shirted (and now shirt sleeve tattooed), charismatic, filled with the spirit person. Most of us are just boring.
Hey RiBo leads a more interesting life than most. How many of us get face off, carrying a pistol, with Nazi Skin Heads who are also carrying?
In history we all remember JE for his sermon, “In the hands of an angry God,” and consider him one of the the most Holy Spirit inspired speakers.<<<
Not all of us.
MLD, I’ll repeat it again, I do blame hitler and the nazis for acting on the words of Martin Luther. I am still very perplexed why you’d die on the hill of defending Luther’s indefensible “On Jews and Their Lies” and seek to minimize it, especially you being a former Jew or racial Jew. Makes no sense.
Seems antisemitism is still prevalent in Germany. I don’t get it. But it’s there and even guys like MLD show it’s still alive and well today in the USA.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.576189
Bob, ya, “interesting”. Well I’d gladly trade getting sued by my CC pastor step-dad and mom, getting the white-wash face-to-face by Chuck Smith and his attorney, squaring off with several psychos (on various occasions) at the pawn/gun shops over the years and being beaten down, tortured, ritually broken down mentally growing up as a kid and teen.
But, fortunately I’ve had a lot of good “interesting” along the way as well.
How many threads does that make this month that have been turned to Martin Luther and the jews?
This is getting ridiculous!
Xenia:
That goes without saying, but to deny he was a biggy in history wouldn’t be fair. Of course he was a Calvinist.
RiBo:
You know there’s nothing any of us can change about our personal history except to move forward. My father was never around at all when I was a child, of my grandfathers, one was a drunk who beat his children and the other a wife abuser who divorced his first wife in a time when such a thing was hush hush. There is much more, but those things are a part of my history as are yours.
What I found interesting is the differences about how my sister and I saw our childhood. I was independent and basically did what I wanted to do, while my sister grew bitter and eventually dragged our mother into counseling with her after my father’s death. I enjoyed my childhood and she remembers it as a horrible time.
Today we are both married one time to wonderful people, have children, grand children, care about our mother, and have worked through all those issues.
But you’ve got admit the two Nazi Skin Heads gave you a great story to tell others about!
Now back to the topic of the day – the public execution of Brian Brodersen
Reuben –
Honest answer because I love you.
I don’t feel like I was pulling out a gun. I love and respect Michael largely because he has been very diligent to put facts with accusations. This thread felt different to me so I let him know it. I probably should have done it offline. That is my failure, and I accept it. I was not defending Brian, because I don’t know Brian nor can I speak to his character. I was not defending Calvary Chapel. I was exhorting Michael.
As far as me persisting in Calvary Chapel, the reason is simple. The church I pastor is a Calvary Chapel and the people here love this church. They are largely unaffected by the garbage that exists in other Calvary Chapels. Changing affiliation when the people here are happy seems silly to me. Additionally I love the core concepts of Calvary even if there are some Calvary’s that follow them the way I understand them.
We have accountable leadership, child protections, and financial accountability. We have great fellowship with other churches of many different denominational backgrounds. We are a Calvary Chapel that meets the standards that you, Michael, and Alex are fighting for. Why would you want us to leave.
Concerning SMP, they don’t set my course. I comment there about as much as I do here, which is to say rarely. I love the guys I have met there, and I am saddened that you guys still have angst. I won’t hate them simply because you do, and I won’t abandon my relationship with you just because some of them may have. As you may recall I offered to get involved in your situation because I knew and loved the people involved on both sides – you asked me not to.
Michael –
I am sorry I brought this online, I should have contacted you offline to express my concerns about your tone here. I didn’t mean to distract from the thread, but I would point out that I was not the only one who noticed.
Shaun,
I hear and understand your concerns.
My hope is that all this stuff is untrue and it all goes away.
What I can’t do is ignore what I am told by credible people who actually have the best interests of Brodersen and CC at heart.
After hearing out the group there may be things I need to reassess and repent of…I’m always open to that possibility.
“by credible people who actually have the best interests of Brodersen and CC at heart.”
I must admit I am intrigued and I WILL wait for the whole thing to play out.
But I do have a problem with these people who think it is in Brodersen’s best interest to be run out of CC and go work at The Home Depot.
Inquiring Minds want to know. 🙂
Bob, JE may have had considerable influence (and his horrible sermon is required reading in many high school English classes, giving yet another generation of kids an erroneous view of God) but I do not “consider him one of the the most Holy Spirit inspired speakers.”
Xenia: “Not all of us”
Yep, not me either.
I don’t consider JE one of the most Holy Spirit inspired speakers either. I read not only *that* sermon, but others from him, and there’s nothing there. The can is empty.
Cue the “Andy’s an ignoramus” speech, now… 🙂
Great word, Shaun @138. And great question. “Why would you want us to leave?”
I believe with all my heart that Michael wants to see Calvary Chapel thrive, not just in numbers but in health – just as he would want every denomination that serves Jesus to thrive. I believe he supports the emphasis on people being taught the word of God, and recognizes that Calvary has and continues to reach a large portion of our society that otherwise feels very uncomfortable or even rejected by other denominations.
I believe Michael would praise God if another 1000 CCs were planted AS LONG AS they all had pastoral accountability standards, safeguards to protect the children and people, and transparency in all areas of ministry. Likewise, if the inconsistency as to when Costa Mesa (or the new CCA) got involved in the oversight of another church and when it said “not my problem” as that mixed message under Chuck was a huge problem. And of course, an end to the “good-old-boy” network that is not healthy at all, and that some have been on the receiving end of.
He can correct me if I am mistaken.
To that end, recognizing change does not happen overnight, he supports several of us, publicly. Those of us who want the same things.
Others do not. They want CC to either crash and burn or be so radically changed that it really is not CC anymore. To these, anyone in CC who might be respected by outsiders is actually a problem, because the argument is the bad tree can only bring bad fruit. So these are the CC folks who are going to get hit even harder than the scoundrels, in hopes they either are badgered into leaving CC (not going to happen) or badgered into leaving the public eye on blogs critical of CC (and this has been successful)
So a month or so a guy pops in here after a long absence and is rewarded with his own article on the Abuse blog. Something I can relate to as well. But it is far more than just that one person and his blog. Why bother sticking your head out if that is almost the guaranteed outcome.
I really do not see how I can continue to encourage CC pastors to dialog at places like here with their critics – at least not without telling them the cost they must expect to pay. Next month I will be speaking to a bunch of pastoral candidates and will tell them in no uncertain terms that they need accountability and safeguard protections. I intended to encourage them to be outspoken by name to the world as they do – to seek fellowship outside of the CC bubble and above all else to listen to those who have had bad experiences in CC and try to be a bridge builder for Christ (not CC but for Christ).
Now I think I will just tell them my experience and have them google me after the session to see what they can expect to happen if they dare leave the bubble. Seriously, can anything good really be expected if a new CC pastor showed up here to dialog with the community. The very, very few that still do on occasion split pretty quickly. I guess I am either very slow on the uptake or woefully optimistic.
I think it is silly for anyone to complain about not being “public” – (How many times have I publicly written here not just what we do at CCLE but what I would like to see the whole movement require for affiliation.) But anyone who could say with a straight face, knowing my history, that I am in CC “for the money” is quite out of touch anyway
It has been encouraging to get random emails from guys asking questions, even for copies of what we do in order to implement them at their place, and yeah sometimes to hear from those who say they used to be regulars here but the blog changed and they split. I know when I first started posting here about 5 years ago there were a LOT of CC pastors too. Now..not so much.
I continue to support (publicly) Michael, standing appreciative of not only his goals here but his personal help for me and our church in the past. I will continue to challenge him too when I think he is off-base, but as Shaun suggested – I think that would be best served offblog going forward.
whew, glad I never wasted my time reading it after those reviews.
I have a hard time wanting to read sermons. If a sermon is properly prepared it is like a fine meal – meant for a one time serving and made for a particular individual or group.
My pastor prepares that meal for me each week – so I see no need to pick leftovers off the plates of others.
Reading is also difficult because you cannot pick up the voice inflections of emphasis points.
Steve’s point is so true.
Yesterday I tired to make the point, if people are happy in their CC experience, can’t we also be happy for them?
Shaun today said “They are largely unaffected by the garbage that exists in other Calvary Chapels. Changing affiliation when the people here are happy seems silly to me. ”
But you know that there are several key critics here who would reply “No! those people have no right to be happy in that environment. The environment is wicked and the people are just brainwashed… or equally evil”
“I believe with all my heart that Michael wants to see Calvary Chapel thrive, not just in numbers but in health – just as he would want every denomination that serves Jesus to thrive.”
Yes.
“I believe Michael would praise God if another 1000 CCs were planted AS LONG AS they all had pastoral accountability standards, safeguards to protect the children and people, and transparency in all areas of ministry. Likewise, if the inconsistency as to when Costa Mesa (or the new CCA) got involved in the oversight of another church and when it said “not my problem” as that mixed message under Chuck was a huge problem. And of course, an end to the “good-old-boy” network that is not healthy at all, and that some have been on the receiving end of.”
Multiple yea’s.
“Next month I will be speaking to a bunch of pastoral candidates and will tell them in no uncertain terms that they need accountability and safeguard protections.”
This is where the rubber meets the road in my opinion.
This is why we HAVE to support guys like Steve who are making the reforms needed and encouraging others to do so.
Most of those guys will not read the blog or consider it if they do.
They will listen to one of their peers.
When the effort is being made it has to be affirmed and recognized.
“I will continue to challenge him too when I think he is off-base, but as Shaun suggested – I think that would be best served offblog going forward.”
I am a sinner prone to the same temptations that plague all of us…correction and exhortation are both appreciated, on or offline.
Love you, Michael. And appreciate you very much. Praying for you also.
Likewise across the board, Steve.
Andy and Xenia
It’s ok with me how you feel about JE. I have no skin I the game of whose “inspired” or not.
I’m one those who appreciate all the church heroes and fathers and believe they all have contributed to the present traditions of our faith. Who’s inspired? They all were at some point as are you.
I have done a little reading of JE, both of his writings and bios of him, notably the one by Iain Murray. And maybe I am over stating this, but that idea of JE being boorish in and out of the pulpit is a caricature.
That is all. 🙂
Steve, Thank you so much for participating. I’m sorry you get attacked so often for your affiliation. I understand the anger often directed against you. Those that have a serious disputes with CC in general often hold you personally responsible or want to you forsake the brand or somehow work harder to reform CC.
The situation with CC is unusual. It is not a denomination, yet – in a way – it is. It lacks many of the advantages of a denomination such as overall structure and hierarchy, yet it does promise some conformity from church to church. As RiBo points out, it is much like a franchise.
I remind readers I’ve never attended a CC. My current church is a denomination, but still each church is independent. An odd combination, I admit. Yet, as Michael has often commented on, it does seem to be the direction that modern American Evangelistic churches are taking. It may not be a healthy trend at all.
I get some of the anger against CC that rubs off on you. I think the concept of a “brand” in Christian life is an interesting concept and has been hashed to death on this blog.
I just want to say that I greatly appreciate your input on this blog. I’ve learned much from you as I’ve learned from other educated pastors. That education and teaching is one thing I expect from a pastor. I also expect the level of holiness (for lack of a better term) that is required in the scripture’s description of pastors and overseers.
I am sympathetic to the viewpoint of those abused by CC in general, including “you know who.” I know you are sympathetic too. I sincerely wish those people would NOT take their, often valid, complaints against CC out in personal attacks against you.
The push and shove on this blog is sometimes a useful dynamic and good debate can help us all determine the truth. That’s how the legal system is set up with a prosecutor and a defense and they both present their case and, in this way, we hope that truth and justice will be served.
So thank you for your input on this blog. I know it comes at some personal sacrifice for you. The tough questions deserve to be asked and answered. The ad hominem attacks are not necessary, and I regret these personal attacks. Let’s argue facts and principles, rather than personalities. (An exception is where character of the individual is the issue.)
Shaun said, “They are largely unaffected by the garbage that exists in other Calvary Chapels”
What if they move to Visalia and see “Calvary Chapel” on the building? What then?
…that has happened when a couple went from Stupar’s CC to Visalia. They are now separated and have gotten chewed up and spit out and had no idea what they were getting into going to another “Calvary Chapel”
but, you guys don’t care about that, it’s “not your problem”
Steve said, “I believe Michael would praise God if another 1000 CCs were planted AS LONG AS they all had pastoral accountability standards, safeguards to protect the children and people, and transparency in all areas of ministry. Likewise, if the inconsistency as to when Costa Mesa (or the new CCA) got involved in the oversight of another church and when it said “not my problem” as that mixed message under Chuck was a huge problem. And of course, an end to the “good-old-boy” network that is not healthy at all, and that some have been on the receiving end of.”
Financial transparency as well, though you may have meant that with “transparency in all areas of ministry” above.
That’s what I want too. CC can be the fastest growing church in the world for all I care, as long as it has those things, I’d stop blogging about it as I’ve posted in article form as a challenge on my blog.
If Calvary Chapel will require those things to be an official CC that has the rights to the name and license etc, then I’d sing the praises and change the focus of the blog or shut it down altogether.
““The first and primary object of preaching is not only to give information. It is, as Edwards says, to produce an impression. It is the impression at the time that matters, even more than what you can remember subsequently. In this respect Edwards is, in a sense, critical of what was a prominent Puritan custom and practice. The Puritan father would catechize and question the children as to what the preacher had said. Edwards, in my opinion, has the true notion of preaching. It is not primarily to impart information; and while you are writing your notes you may be missing something of the impact of the Spirit. As preachers we must not forget this. We are not merely imparters of information”.
Jonathan Edwards and the Crucial Importance of Revival by Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones.
Also see this link: http://recoverthegospel.com/?p=5584
J.U. – I have REALLY appreciated your input here the last couple of days. Finding myself in much agreement.
Ribo does bring up a good point about the need to speak up for truth at times. Don’t know if that would always have to be done publicly. There may be a way to address that with different individuals at different times, but the concern does seem valid.
What kind of stupid people get a divorce because the went to a different church?
RB, this is a sign that you have no critical thinking ability. Did it ever occur to you that these people came to the city of Visalia with serious personal issues eating at them, that were enhanced by making a move from their previous home to a new home – and that the visit to CC Visalia was just incidental?
Believe me, I would have serious issues if I had to move from SLO (great place to live) to Visalia (the arm pit of the central valley.)
MLD, I don’t have the space and time or permission to spell out the whole situation in detail to support the claim. If I did, it would “dominate” the thread and you’d call for my banning and moderation.
The couple had major trouble in Visalia and they are no longer a couple. It was the stress of the bad situation there that was the catalyst.
You can do your normal trolling pot stir, but others, don’t be fooled. It’s as I stated.
If I recall my studies correctly, Edwards would read his sermons, while leaning an elbow on the pulpit. It sounds dry to us, as we are used to preachers who are influenced by the likes of Eddie Murphy and other entertainers. But, apparently when he read “Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God”, people were screaming and holding on to the columns of the church, not to be dropped down into Hell.
You also have to understand that reading a sermon was a very common practice in countries that required licensed ministers to preach. This was avoided by having a sermon written by a licensed minister, but anyone could read it, live. Many people in Edwards day would have been completely comfortable with this practice, and may have been more jarred by an improvisational, informal speech.
RB,
Same old story … “if only I could tell the whole story…”
I heard that from someone else here recently.
MLD, whatevs. Go apologize for some antisemitism or something. You should move to Northern Idaho, there’s a few folks who would love you up there…though the OC has some of it too, you’re probably already in the club.
Josh, Thank you very much. I’ve paid careful attention to the voices on this blog. One issue at the very core of this blog is the unusual organization of CC. It appears to have a common requirement in doctrine, and, I assume, in other issues of organization. I doubt anyone can adopt the name and logo without permission from the “mother ship.” Yet it seems to – somewhat conveniently – deny responsibility on some key issues.
I don’t blame Steve or other CC pastors personally for that, although I agree it is an issue that deserves some discussion. (I do blame anyone who did have a hand in the shenanigans, but I’ve never seen any accusations that Steve, for example, performed bad deeds.)
I support RiBo on his quest and the quest of others injured by CC. I really think accountability is required. I think my main complaint is the tone of some of the conversation. As Christians, we really should be more civil to each other. I think that our conversations sometimes get too emotional, although I realize that some of the injury is very emotional.
By the way, I think a lot of the lack of civility is in the unfortunate dynamic of the Internet blogs.
So I will support and defend those challenged and insulted on this blog unjustly, even while I support the premise of some of the complaints. That’s my personal view.
And, I could tell the whole story, but it would “dominate” the thread as it would take many very long posts to tell it all.
Too bad you choose not to address issues.. but rather just prefer to level personal insults. It’s not me who lives in Idaho selling weapons to the 100% white population.
I listened to your radio interviews … you can’t hide.
I address issues all the time so-much-so I get moderated and threatened banning.
If you listened to my radio interviews then you learned something…though your early onset alzheimer’s may have erased some of it.
Woah, getting too personal fellas. Back it down a little 🙂
I sold a .357 magnum to a gay couple recently, sell guns to hispanic/latinos, blacks, women all the time.
I’d estimate about 25% of my guns sales are to minorities (not including women). Race is a non-factor, it’s about freedom loving Americans in all flavors who want to exercise their right in the Bill of Rights to protect themselves. In that case, I’m as Rainbow-Push as Jesse Jackson hisself…as long as the folks can pass the background check and qualify under the law.
Gun justice is blind.
There are many squared away blacks and latinos here in Whitey-ho. They love freedom and don’t hate whitey at all. They’re Americans first and foremost we all get along just fine…though some in the black community get persecuted by other blacks for being “too redneck”
Ah, that was good. I just had Claim Jumper delivered for everyone in the office.
It’s gonna be tough getting any work out of them this afternoon. 🙂
Andrew – do you think your pastor could get a job at Home Depot let alone mange one? I couldn’t, I have no trade skills.
__________________________________________________________________
Exactly, that was my point. Why would Home Depot hire Brian? He doesn’t have these types of skills that I am aware of.
MLD
If I can make the Southwest flight at 3pm out of Sacramento, I could probably be at your office by 5pm. You think anything from Claim Jumper would be left?
Bob Sweat,
Not a chance but I can send you the street address of Claim Jumper and they’ll have plenty of awesome food.
Did anyone say “cake”?!
Bob Sweat – it’s 1:53 pm – burp! too late 🙂
I was disappointed- they didn’t have their Widow Maker on the catering menu. Sometimes you just have to make due with what is out there.
My office is just 5 min from John Wayne – come down one day and I will treat.
“people were screaming and holding on to the columns of the church, not to be dropped down into Hell”
It will be interesting to see if any people are in heaven because of JE’s “sermon” in which he makes it clear that God abhors you like an insect over the fire, God who cannot bear to have you in His sight, as JE makes so “poetically” clear.
Of course, that is not the God of the Bible that His Word has shown to me.
It is also noteworthy that the way to heaven, believing in Jesus, is so many times repeated in John’s Gospel just that way. But in JE’s “sermon”, the word believe appears just three times, and faith, zero times.
Thus, he scares you with hellfire, but never emphasizes the way out, which is BELIEVING in JESUS. Jesus is merely brought up but the emphasis on believing is basically nonexistent, again with just three uses of the word in such an otherwise wordy blah blah blah…
Hey, my office is only 5 min from John Wayne…
Is that you I see out my window? 🙂
Now I am mad at Brodersen also. I went out to Costco to get gas, driving past CCCM I turned on KWAVE and Brodersen was on talking about marriage and relationships with his wife.
Gag – take away his man card!
We don’t plan well. I ordered lunch for everyone to close out our month and a guy just showed up with another delivery. It turns out my wife had ordered out beer, wine, cheese and crackers for Happy Hour in the office.
party on! 🙂
Now we see why he’s a Lutheran… 🙂
See, there would have been some food left!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa is a Dinosaur living on past Glory’s
“Others do not. They want CC to either crash and burn or be so radically changed that it really is not CC anymore. To these, anyone in CC who might be respected by outsiders is actually a problem, because the argument is the bad tree can only bring bad fruit. So these are the CC folks who are going to get hit even harder than the scoundrels, in hopes they either are badgered into leaving CC (not going to happen) or badgered into leaving the public eye on blogs critical of CC (and this has been successful)”
Not me, CC Bores me so I could care less these days.
Still waiting for Michael to apologize for turning a positive profile of a fellow servant for Christ into an open forum to spread dirt on an innocent man. Don’t expect Hell to freeze over anytime soon.
By the way Michael unless this dirt on BB involves sexual abuse of some type it will have minimal impact on his ministry. But I doubt we will ever know because I don’t believe the story is true.
Understand, I do not know Brian B., and I’m not accusing him of anything. Mark, I don’t know you either, but your comments continue to trouble me. For instance, this one:
“By the way Michael unless this dirt on BB involves sexual abuse of some type it will have minimal impact on his ministry. But I doubt we will ever know because I don’t believe the story is true.”
Do you believe that sexual abuse is the only sin that should discredit a pastor? What about misuse of church money? What about walking all over the lives of people? What about bearing false witness? I could go on. I know of more people who have left the church all together because of sins by a pastor that had nothing to do with sexual misdeeds.
I had breakfast with a friend last week who is deeply troubled by what he is witnessing at his church. When I suggested that he leave, he told me that if he leaves the church he would most likely never attend church again.
I repeat, I am not accusing Brian of anything, its comments like # 187 that really piss me off!
Here is the issue I have with Michael’s “pre release” of the dirt on BB.
If it turns out that BB is really a good upright guy and nothing comes out – Michael and his sources will report a cover up – because surely the gossip must be true.
BB is in a lose lose battle here … especially with friends who have his best interest at heart as Michael reported yesterday – those who think his best interest is best served by being railroaded out and being the next new manager at The Home Depot.
MLD,
As more often than not lately, you’re wrong.
I’ll go where the facts lead and if they lead to nothing more than more malicious politics I’ll talk about that as well.
Loudly.
We will see. Surely there is chatter out there that Brodersen is doing a fine job and maybe even right tilting a falling ship.
Follow up on some of those stories.
MLD,
I’ve written at least two of those already.
You must have been busy those days.
Bob, I came to learn that Mark is one of the biggest CCool-Aid drinkers that post here. I don’t believe that he’s a pastor but he sure loves the dove. He may be in for a surprise.
I realize this is an older post but the answer given by Brian Brodersen to the question –
“The Calvary Chapel movement is known for the so-called Moses’ model of leadership. Is this as prevalent as some say?”
Is IMO very dismissive?
Brian answered “It’s exaggerated by people on the outside and by the disgruntled“
1. It is not exaggerated.
2. Even people not associated (outside) CC can see it.
3. Saying disgruntled seems like saying ‘nothing would be good enough for these people’
i.e. there is no real people that have been hurt and there is no legitimate complaints.
This seems like saying do not pay attention to these people because they are uninformed and/or can’t see the facts, and there is no real damage from this model that hardly exists.
This is simply not true.
I believe that some/many pastors come into CC with good motives but eventually they are challenged by the ‘board’; maybe on some small issue?
Not wanting to give in, they realize their livelihood is in jeopardy; they then reach out to other CC pastors and quickly learn/adopt the Moses Model.
Many get it from the start.
I believe the term “Moses Model” is actually fading away. Its being replaced by something far worse, appears sexy but accomplishes exactly what the Moses Model used to do and more. That is it gives the senior pastor as much power and control he wants with very little accountability. Its the “visionary” model pastor. They get it from the Bible because they say God is the ultimate visionary. They don’t need to model Moses anymore when they can model God himself is their thinking. This model uses corporate business model vision casting couched in biblical prophetic language. Run baby run!
“I believe the term “Moses Model” is actually fading away”
Ouch; you make me feel old school.
I believe you are correct, but CC has some culpability for the current trend?
Moses Model to Visionary = bad to worse.
I think Brian is trying to distance himself from the Moses Model in the article.
But you should not discount all the people, families including children that have been hurt from the Modus operandi.
That model predates CC by at least a hundred years.
“That model predates CC by at least a hundred years”
Where?
And
Are these ‘Visionaries’ learning there Model from Church History or the examples they have learned and witnessed?
Actually more than 100..the “Moses Model” was nothing but the traditional senior pastor model with fresh paint and a crappy explanation.
Baptists and independents have used it for centuries.
It is an old idea for sure
16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation, Nu 27:16.
Brian says that Chuck believed he was being guided by God and came up with the “Moses Model” not wanting his hands tied?
Q,
Chuck saw lots of independent Pentecostals do as they damn well pleased and he made his own application.
The complete lack of any knowledge of church history makes them think he came up with the idea.
He didn’t.
He just dressed it up in funny clothes.
BD,
Because I’m tired, I will not lecture you on the foolishness of applying God’s means of ordering His theocracy to the N.T. people of God.
Thus, you are blessed indeed. 🙂
Micheal,
My point is there are real people that have been hurt,
Uninformed (out of the loop) or disgruntled is not an accurate picture of what that Model has caused and that form government is the norm in CC.
And if you have 2000 some odd churches today; you have influenced the way things are being done.
Q,
There are multiplied more in the SBC and IFB running the same system.
It is the most used form of church government in Protestantism.
Real people have been hurt, but of you think you’re going to replace that ecclesiology you’re wasting your time.
Michael,
Shining the light is never a waste of time.
Why do you have a problem with what I have said?
Maybe you don’t.
I agree with Michaels #205. However, I believe it is much more than foolishness and I think Michael was being very kind indeed. I do think there is an application of Num 26:16 and that is Jesus the Man ruling over His church and not a pastor over his congregation.
Woops meant Num 27:16.
In defense of SBC – the VAST majority are congregational. Like maybe 90%. Second to that would be Elder Led. Probably about 8%. There are some guys in the SBC, and some of them are pretty high profile, who do a “Moses Model” kind of thing…but there are only a few.
Dread said our congregationalism was the most evil for of church polity ever, and now Michael is ripping us for having Moses Model pastors. 🙂
I guess Dread is the closest to being correct, here.
n defense of SBC – the VAST majority are congregational. Like maybe 90%. Second to that would be Elder Led. Probably about 8%. There are some guys in the SBC, and some of them are pretty high profile, who do a “Moses Model” kind of thing…but there are only a few.
____________________________________________________________________
Furtick is one of them right? This is to me is a great example of the morphing from Moses Model to “Visionary” model for a pastor. It is sort of the same basic principal taken to a new level of arrogance.
Brodersen is either delusional or a lying P.O.S.
This was posted on my blog, very serious allegations and similar to other CC situations I’ve encountered:
“Concerned says:
March 5, 2014 at 1:39 am (Edit)
I was an extremely active member of Rob McCoy’s church from 2003-2005. During that time, I was molested by a member of his staff and know first hand of two other situations where teenagers were molested/sexually assaulted around said time. Rob McCoy knew about the situation involving me and did nothing. He paid for one of the other victim’s parent’s vacation to Hawaii so they wouldn’t press charges and I am not sure if he was aware of the third victim. Interestingly, each situation involved a different perpetrator. I am extremely disturbed by the fact that 1) as mandated by law, Rob McCoy had a legal obligation to report these abuses and did nothing about it and 2) he hires these types of people as part of his staff. About a year ago, I approached the police department to report the abuse that happened to me when I was a teenager. I explained that I was filing a report in an attempt to make sure this wasn’t still happening to other vulnerable teenage girls. At first, they were extremely responsive however once personal information about the suspect was disclosed, I never heard back. I sent approximately 12 e-mails to the investigating officer and nothing. I find it interesting that Rob is a Chaplain with the Police department and up until personal information was shared, they were extremely responsive.
I know where he stands on child abuse/child protection policies…he doesn’t. If you’re in, you’re protected and if not watch out. bI know this because I lived it. Additionally, I remember him preaching about Miranda’s Law specifically and advocating against it. His stance was that once a man has served his time and is “forgiven”, he should be reinstated back into the community with a clean sheet. Really, Rob? Ideally this would be the case and people would suddenly be healed of their perversions however temptation is a real thing and I bet most people would agree that they would be uncomfortable leaving their children alone with a convicted child molester.
Posting this is extremely difficult for me…hopefully this sheds some light on a very dark situation.”
https://phoenixpreacher.com/?p=16365
Steve Wright, you want to defend Calvary Chapel some more and tell us all how you have zero responsibility blah, blah, blah?
You guys are delusional or intentional jerks.
How the hell is Steve responsible for something that happened somewhere else?
Rob McCoy wants to run for office…so I’d love to see the police report on this.
If this is true, he’s toast.
However I’ve learned the hard way to get both sides of a story…there’s a “victim” on your site telling lies about me, so I’d verify first.
I want to know what the police said when she reported the molestations.
Right now it’s an allegation posted on my blog. I will do some digging. I’ve reached out to the author of the comment and will be contacting McCoy soon, but CC usually stone walls so I’m not hopeful for a reply other than he might threaten to sue which is the CC way.
Oh, I was also told recently by a source who claims to be friends with Jeff Smith and his wife that Brodersen is suing for The Word For Today.
Brian Brodersen in CT: “All is well! Nothing to see here! CC is just wonderful!”
Liar liar pants on fire.
Michael said, “How the hell is Steve responsible for something that happened somewhere else?”
The NFL is an Association.
The individual NFL franchise owners who get the rights to use the name and license and play in the League vote, use their influence, have a say in how the League is run.
Steve and the other CC Pastors in the Association should do something to change the Rules of THEIR League.
The owner of the Panthers would never discipline a player from the Seahawks for bad behaviour.
“Furtick is one of them right? This is to me is a great example of the morphing from Moses Model to “Visionary” model for a pastor. It is sort of the same basic principal taken to a new level of arrogance.”
I don’t know to what degree Furtick is still cooperating with the SBC. He does not communicate with his local association, but he could still be giving to the Cooperative Fund. I know that Elevation got SBC money when they were being planted.
But yes, he would be one of the few who is sort of Moses to his congregation. His success makes it likely that others would want to follow his lead.
The NFL would though for a serious enough offense. If they didn’t its not worth being a member of the NFL.
Well, that’s why CC and the NFL are not the same thing. its just a poor analogy. If the NFL is CC, then one local pastor would in now way be held resposible for bad actions on a different team.
Just a bad analogy, that’s all.
“Liar liar pants on fire.”
So if it is not true, does that make you a “Liar liar pants on fire.” or just a fool?
RB in his CS way always avoids the replies to his questions. Last week or so he brought up the NFL things and I asked him if he thought that New England Patriots’ owner Robert Kraft could fly down to Dallas and remove Jerry Jones’ NFL logo?
For some reason he went silent … and it was his analogy.
Josh,
This goes to who is culpable for the bad behavior? If you take the NFL example a bit farther and use your logic, why should the owner be responsible for the bad player’s behavior on his own team? He didn’t do it, it was the player that did it, right? However if the owner doesn’t do anything and sets no rules for his players, the best thing the players should do is leave. The same way if the NFL doesn’t have rules, than the teams should leave.
“The owner of the Panthers would never discipline a player from the Seahawks for bad behaviour.”
No, the League does and the Franchise owners help make the League Rules that govern each of them.
MLD, I didn’t see your question the first time. I usually draw a crowd on here and sometimes can’t respond to everyone.
MLD, the MLD Owners were instrumental in getting Frank McCourt out as Dodgers owner b/c he was bad for the League.
Kraft is very instrumental in the NFL Association and if a fellow Owner molested a kid or committed child abuse etc, I imagine Kraft would get something done so it didn’t reflect on the Association he is a part of.
“No, the League does”
And that’s why it is a bad analogy. I’m not even talking about who should do what, just that the analogy is flawed to the point of actually making a point for the other side.
It’s not a perfect analogy as CC is kind of its own weird animal (intentionally to dodge accountability) but it’s close.
Q wrote: “I believe that some/many pastors come into CC with good motives but eventually they are challenged by the ‘board’; maybe on some small issue? Not wanting to give in, they realize their livelihood is in jeopardy; they then reach out to other CC pastors and quickly learn/adopt the Moses Model.”
Challenged by the board, or even challenged by people in other ministry positions that are smarter than the rest of the world, and insist on things done their way, and use power brokering to get their will done.
It happens a lot.
So the pastor sits up late at night, thinking, the reality is, the people that come to the church, are coming to hear the pastor teach. They usually aren’t coming just because the morning coffee is so fresh. And so why should the pastor be bullied into decisions that he is not comfortable with. Hence, Chuck Smith leaves Corona Christian Center, and goes to Calvary Chapel.
It obviously was blessed by God. And there is clear precedent in Scripture to do it that way, like it or not. The alternative is that a smaller or larger group of people take a vote, and push their will.
Of course every system will say, “we are led by Jesus, not by man”. They all say that.
Josh, the NFL is akin to CCOF/CC Association. The Franchise owners are, well, similar to the CC Franchise owners.
To say the Franchise owners have no say in how their Association is run is naive or intentionally deceptive.
I understand autonomous church polity. I actually really believe in it. Going after CC as the NFL League Office is spitting in the wind. I am sitting about 1 mile from The Panthers stadium. If I had an issue with them, I’d walk over there and solve. Take the police with me if necessary.
That’s the only way to affect change in CC; at the local church level. And guess what? That’s the only level that matters!
For instance, let’s say CC implements all these changes that we’d like to see them make. What stops a local pastor from saying, forget it, I’ll just take down the Dove? And if he does that, he goes right on molesting kids or whatever, and CC can say, “well, we did our part. We implemented these policies.” But its all bullcrap. Now, the people getting hurt have even less power to take out their abuser. But, if the focus is on the local church, then the guy has to take action. He can leave, repent, go to jail, or whatever.
“For instance, let’s say CC implements all these changes that we’d like to see them make. What stops a local pastor from saying, forget it, I’ll just take down the Dove?”
Well, then at least folks will know he’s different and not the same as another CC. Right now there are folks who go from a good situation in a CC (think Stupar) to a bad situation (think my step-dad) and they have no idea what they’re in for b/c they see CC on the building and CC gives the impression that all is well and that there is accountability at each franchise…when nothing could be further from the truth. It’s the wild west in CC and they give a different impression which is lying.
“To say the Franchise owners have no say in how their Association is run is naive or intentionally deceptive”
This is silly – the NFL owners have paid $100 million for the franchise and multiple millions to the NFL in initial franchise fees and then in rolling franchise fees.
CC and CCOF have not passed a dime between them. Just as the congregation has no say at a CC – the CC pastors have no say in CCOF
Just a minor point..
If CC implemented the changes I and others have called for, then I would personally feel I made a very positive dent to help protect kids in CC and to help prevent folks in CC who give their money from being conned and funding the CCSP’s lifestyle and family and friends (as is the case in many CC’s that have financial opacity).
At least if the finances are public, then the folks know where there money is going and then it’s on them. Right now, many are shocked when they find out the finances, then they are angry and should be…but good luck getting the truth and info out of a CC Moses Model Pastor.
If the people who are giving to a local church are not asking for transparency, then why does it matter? They are the ones choosing to give. I think transparency is important too, but then I choose to go to a church that is set up that way.
CC and CCOF have not passed a dime between them. Just as the congregation has no say at a CC – the CC pastors have no say in CCOF
___________________________________________________________________
Not a dime? Looks like millions to me. http://articles.latimes.com/print/2007/feb/28/local/me-calvary28
Andrew – that is 2 pastors going into business together – what does that have to do with money being passed in franchise fees from a local cc to CCOF?
Wait, I thought the pastor was the franchise and Chuck Smith was CCOF. At least that is the impression I get.
Let me make it clear, I can’t defend Calvary, because I purposefully know very little about them. There aren’t any around here. I’ve never actually seen a CC live.
I’m only discussing the concepts and strategies.
Andrew – you thought wrong. 😉
If the congregation has no say in the CC and only the pastor does, than the pastor and CC are basically one when it comes to responsibility. If CC franchises have no say in CCOF than the president of CCOF is responsible. Oh yeah, president of CCOF was Chuck Smith. So if Chuck Smith can separate himself from Chuck Smith than maybe I would agree with you MLD but unfortunately I don’t think we are going to see a lot in financial transparency anytime soon in CC. It will kill the whole gig in my estimation.
” but unfortunately I don’t think we are going to see a lot in financial transparency anytime soon in CC.”
People here on this blog are the only ones clamoring to see the CC books.
I keep saying that 99.99% of CC attenders are fat and happy and do not want to know how the sausage is made. i will be that the vast majority of people who have attended 20 plus years have never thought of looking at the books.
If they don’t care, why do you?
The McCoy thing should be simple.
If there’s a police report then there’s something to go on here.
If there is a police report, then we have a story.
If not, there are other things going on.
MLD, I care cause I have a heart for broken and abused people or those that will be broken and abused in due time. Normally I wouldn’t care so much how the sausage is made until I find out there is poison in the sausage killing people.
“If they don’t care, why do you?”
That’s my thought too. It’s their money.
Andrew, if you really thought it was poison, you should be standing outside your local CC letting the unaware know – now writing here where most people agree with you.
You should also be letting the folks know that they are being abused – because they sure as heck don’t know it. 🙂
“If there is a police report, then we have a story.
If not, there are other things going on.”
Not necessarily. It could me that the person has emailed many times as claimed and got stonewalled. Proof of the emails would be a story.
There is proof that my brother Paul filed a report with VPD and there is court testimony on my blog to such and even an acknowledgment that that report was lost…so that stuff does happen.
RiBo,
She said she filed a police report…if so, then that needs attention.
If she didn’t, then sending emails doesn’t mean much.
Agreed, but it could be lost like Paul’s was. Local PD’s can do that for favored persons.
Andrew, if you really thought it was poison, you should be standing outside your local CC letting the unaware know – now writing here where most people agree with you.
_____________________________________________________________________
If you think church government is sausage, how did you stay there for 20 years? 🙂
There is open court testimony transcript on my blog of Paul addressing a report he filed and then an acknowledgment by a rep. from the PD that it had been lost.
Sending emails of allegations of sex abuse to a law enforcement agent and then getting no response would be big news if it could be shown that the emails are legit. At least the agency would have to give an answer as to how the emails got lost or ignored or unopened etc. and then revisit them at minimum.
I guess we could always ask the NSA to send us the copies LOL.
Where is Paul’s copy of the report? I know that the couple of times I filed police reports, I received a copy.
He says they wouldn’t give him a copy of it. They wouldn’t give me a copy of the report I filed against my step-dad. We had to go to court to get them to give us a copy of the report.
…and you wonder why I’m skeptical when the CC pastor is also a chaplain and buds with the local Police.
I am a big supporter of law enforcement and love our locals here, but I am also not blind and stupid about long-time political friendships and loyalties and how that can play out sometimes.
Geez, got a few CC irons in the fire and three stores to run. But, CC could care less so someone has to. The Moses’s aren’t getting the message that you have to protect the kids and you have to report and you have to do the right thing…and it should be a part of the Association/Affiliation Contract to become a CC Franchise, but it still isn’t.
One of these days CC is going to get whacked hard like the RCC and then they’ll be forced to make changes or disband.
This isn’t going to go away, these CC guys are not going to get less prideful and keep saying there’s not a problem when there is a problem.
The person just contacted me. We will be talking after the person is off work today. It’s a real person. I have promised to help with the goal of finding the truth and seeking accountability and helping protect future kids who might face similar situations.
You CC pastors should be ashamed of yourselves, but you aren’t and Michael enables you in that regard.
Someday it’s going to hit the fan and I don’t want to hear any of you saying you did anything after-the-fact. You are worthless POS’s in my book.
That’s awesome RB. Praying for you and this person now. That God will grant wisdom in how to move forward.
RiBo,
Even I felt embarrassed to be a Penn State alumni when the Joe Paterno / Sandusky scandal went down. How much more should a CC pastor feel some shame for advertising and propagating the brand, going to each others conferences and defending each other and their Moses Model doctrine without hesitation. However I don’t think Michael is enabling them. Michael was pretty hard on Steve Wright the other day.
It’s not awesome, but I know you didn’t mean it that way Josh. It’s really upsetting and makes me p.o.’d and disgusted. This is a person, not some number or butt in a seat or Salvation-scalp to hang on a wall.
If the so-called “church” cannot of its own free will get upset about this garbage and just keep saying “nothing’s wrong! no problem! No Moses Model here! All is well!” then I don’t want any part of that type of scum.
Michael keeps telling me what a wonderful guy Steve is (privately to me) and how Steve is doing all these good things in the Association.
Steve, why won’t you go public and publicly criticize your CC Association and speak up and take a stand and say, “We NEED to do this!” etc.
If the Association doesn’t do it, why don’t you take a public stand and leave it and tell the public why you left?
“Steve, why won’t you go public and publicly criticize your CC Association and speak up and take a stand and say, “We NEED to do this!” etc.
If the Association doesn’t do it, why don’t you take a public stand and leave it and tell the public why you left?”
agreed
“awesome” not as in cool, but as in “worthy of awe.”
Ehh, scorched earth isn’t the way to go. If he does that, he only protects his own congregation. By staying and trying to be influential, he can help many congregations.
I fail to see the wisdom in asking all the good pastors to evacuate and leave the group to the bad ones.
Makes no sense whatsoever to me.
““awesome” not as in cool, but as in “worthy of awe.””
My bad.
No, it’s good. It’s an overused word.
“I fail to see the wisdom in asking all the good pastors to evacuate and leave the group to the bad ones.
Makes no sense whatsoever to me.”
You are a walking talking contradiction.
You’ve told me it’s all going to disband, then you’ve said there is no changing the organization b/c there’s no central authority, then you claim Steve needs to say in the Org and make changes from the inside.
You are worse than the bible LOL
That’s fine, Steve and the others can be the men of poor character they are and not take a public stand for what’s right and do their thing quietly and politely and not make any waves or hurt any feelings and protect their numbers etc behind-the-scenes. I expect it men like them and I use the term “men” loosely.
RiBo,
I believe the group will disband.
However, there will still be churches run by pastors who will either have been influenced to do good things or they won’t have had that input.
I deal with things as they are today…and today I’m glad Steve is doing what he’s doing.
Today this is what we have to work with.
Then he can speak out publicly today while it’s still a cohesive Organization/Association.
Steve, should Calvary Chapel Association require mandatory child protections and financial transparency as by-law requirements as part of the distinctives to become an official Calvary Chapel and part of your CC Association?
Yes or no?
He’s speaking out to the people who will hear in a way that he will be heard.
Which is far more effective than simply making statements on a blog…
“He’s speaking out to the people who will hear in a way that he will be heard.”
Specifics please. How many guys? Who?
Why so secretive?
My guess is very very few and probably not much in terms of practical by-laws.
Prove me wrong.
C’mon Michael, the guy pontificates and blusters about all sorts of stuff publicly, but suddenly he loses his voice when it comes to critiquing his own Association or publicly calling for good by-laws as a mandatory requirement to be a part of his Association.
Not buying what you’re selling.
I don’t know.
I have no idea who is in his regional meetings.
He’s publicly stated here that he advocates for these things in these meetings and I’ve seen some of his presentations.
I believe he’s making a difference.
I think that matters.
Well you should know if you’re such good buds. Steve, speak up man.
I have to go do my real job and put food on the table. I’ll leave the floor to the CC apologists to come in and try to undo my comments.
I fail to see the wisdom in asking all the good pastors to evacuate and leave the group to the bad ones.
Makes no sense whatsoever to me.
———————————————————————————————————–
Michael, Now when you say leave the group to the bad ones, what do you mean? If its just the bad that is left when the good guys leave, then that’s fine with me. At that point its just a bad group and hopefully all will see it for what it is. Now if there are only a few bad ones in an otherwise good group than I see your point. It would appear however, that if this were the case it would be real easy to get rid of the bad ones which is not the case. So I am not sure what the percentage of good ones is to bad ones but its probably close to 50/50 split. So with this in mind, I would encourage the good guys to get the heck out. That is not a good majority! However if people think the good guys have the majority than why can’t they rid out the back guys? It makes no sense.
Andrew,
I work from a presupposition that however all the leadership issues resolve that there will still be churches who are or who once were Calvary Chapels.
We’re not going to wake up and these churches and their pastors will have all disappeared.
I also work under the presupposition that like the SBC, etc, we will not see a central enforcement arm of the movement.
The liability risks are so huge that no one will want to be involved and autonomous local churches are the DNA of this group.
Therefore…any influence that can be brought to bear on each autonomous local church to institute these reforms is invaluable.
I do not work under the idea that this group will ever embrace full denominationalism or adopt any other ecclesiology.
That would be trying to accomplish something that will not happen and a huge waste of time.
What we can do is advocate those things which will help insure that kids are safe and abuse is reported.
In this structure…today…we have to do that by winning one pastor, one day at a time.
When a pastor is doing so, I’m going to support him wholeheartedly whether I agree with his doctrine or ecclesiology or not.
When this all settles, then there may be an opportunity to press for movement wide bylaws before affiliation.
Today, this group can’t even agree on it’s own distinctives.
I will give Steve space & grace.
I will take Michael’s recommendation and endorsement while standing with and encouraging the request that RiBo made.
Is Steve the last CC Pastor here?? I am an NFL fan. If you are then you know what it’s like to see a wide receiver go over the middle, jump and extend in an attempt to catch a pass. This leaves the receiver totally exposed for a defender to just lay him out with a vicious hit. As a result you hear about receivers afraid to go across the middle for fear of injury.
Whenever I have seen those hits I have tons more respect for the receiver who gets up after being laid out than I do for the defender who made the hit. Those hits are like low hanging fruit.
Steve is PP’s resident wide receiver who keeps getting laid out, getting up, brushing himself off, and staying in the game. I respect that a ton more than the ‘defenders’ who take those free shots as often as they can.
I too respect Steve for coming on here and still be willing to keep taking the punches but for what? This isn’t a CC affiliate. Steve shouldn’t be playing defense here. We need Steve on the offense in CC land which I have no way to tell if that is happening.
“Steve shouldn’t be playing defense here. We need Steve on the offense in CC land which I have no way to tell if that is happening.”
true, that
Andrew, this is an online community of believers and Steve is one among many. He enjoys participating and has done so for some time.
Steve does what he does out of personal convictions and is willing to dialogue. How many times do we have to read about him leaving CC and by doing so making some sort of statement? Those questions go back many years here with others than Steve.
As far as Steve being on the offense that’s up to him. I really don’t understand what you mean by offense.
To me it’s pretty simple. If Steve is going to stay as a CC pastor then just leave the poor guy alone.
” We need Steve on the offense in CC land which I have no way to tell if that is happening”
What’s this “we” – none of you are a part of CC and have even less rights to ask questions or point fingers.
Go back to CC, get back in the game now that you are so smart..
#296 MLD cuts right to the chase.
On the bright side, I just signed up today for Medicare and starting next month I want to thank all you tax payers for paying for my medical care. 🙂
MDL
You old fart! 😉
You’re getting so old that you’ll need help stirring that stick.
“E”
How are things in BuenO Park?
Bob,
I keep trying to get as old as you, but I can’t catch up 😉
Are you still planning a summer trip down for some Dodgers’ baseball?
Many people were eliminated by denigration, they rather keep their conscience and ability to reason. Probably the reason they do not go back and turn on the lights when they can.
***I fail to see the wisdom in asking all the good pastors to evacuate and leave the group to the bad ones.
Makes no sense whatsoever to me.***
Because then all the bad eggs are in one basket.
“What’s this “we” – none of you are a part of CC and have even less rights to ask questions or point fingers.”
We are those who once enjoyed fellowship and camaraderie within CC, who have left for reasons of which each of us will forever have in our history.
We have a voice, rights which are inalienable due to shared history and we will continue to use them and our voice to call for reform.
…sort of like a certain guy who wrote some stuff and nailed it to a door.
So interesting that people want to demand that Steve do what they want him to do all the time, but they lack the courage to return and fight the fight themselves.
You have no rights in CC. That is ridiculous.
That is like me saying I should have a say in the English Parliament.
“…sort of like a certain guy who wrote some stuff and nailed it to a door.”
Not even close – he stayed – you didn’t.
He appeared before them in their Diets and in their courts – hashing things out – he did not bug out.
He made his views known face to face when he could – not a blog
You guys should show up at the entrance to the Bible College when they have the SPC this year – with signs and bull horns – demanding change … it’s your inalienable right 🙂
What’s this “we” – none of you are a part of CC and have even less rights to ask questions or point fingers
___________________________________________________________________
The greater body of Christ has the right and duty to watch after kids being abused and raise the out of bounds flag when groups such as SGC, RCC, CC don’t police their own. MLD I am glad to see the Lutheran church taking a stance but don’t think for a second that just because you don’t communion with certain Christian groups that we don’t have a responsibility to raise the out of bound referee flag.
To me to come on here and demand to see Steve do something that would convince you he is doing something to reform CC when you aren’t even a part of CC is like some kind of weird internet voyeurism.
Steve is in CC.
He is working at reforms.
Michael says this all the time.
Well, deal with it.
Or get your own b
Or get your own butt in the ring and duke it out.
That is a tactic that Jackie Alnor took with my church and pastor.
I have no need or requirement to do anything beyond what I do, in secret.
I shall opine freely about that which I believe needs change.
Derek, I was here for years before you showed up, have supported Michael before you ever wrote a thing and pressed “Post Comment”
have a day
Teddy Roosevelt said this once about the man in the arena. This may describe Steve.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
This probably describes Michael also … the rest of us are spectators.
Ohhhh….G was here from eternity.
I wasn’t even talking about you.
That was mainly about Andrew.
I bet Steve has a spare set of balls somewhere around for some of you.
“…a spare set of balls somewhere around for some of you.”
wow, what a mature and cogent remark
MLD, I think this describes what Steve says and thinks about himself. I’m not usually impressed by self evaluation but I hope you are right. And if Michael and you give Steve a thumbs up than I guess he is good to go.
Yep.
Sort of like your rants are a lot when you call people ignorant.
again, really on point
is that the best you can do?
i call for reform, am told to get balls
yeah baby
G,
My #305 says exactly what I think about your “call” for reforms.
Steve can take you on advisement, but you really have no say in the organization.
When you rejoin CC and decide to really fight injustice then post the pics.
But, what I see on here is a full scale assault usually on the one person in the organization who is visibly doing anything to correct the problem.
So, how are you helping reform CC?
#313 still stands.
G,
“i call for reform,” – but you have no standing – you bail, gave it up, turned in your CC card.”
Now what do you do? Opine???? and that from afar on a like minded blog.
“I shall opine freely about that which I believe needs change.”
G,
Do I have standing to call for reform at your church?
your 305 misses the point
there are many of us who have been here before you, before Wright, before RiBo, who have supported Michael’s efforts, who have comforted those who showed up here asking if it was OK to tell their stories, of their disillusionment with TheCCMovement. We have comforted them, welcomed them, and we will not forget, and that CC which we each knew remains dear to us and we want better for her as a church, that her lampstand be bright and not darkened
knock yourself out, MLD
313 is the statement of a man who is overly fixated on his limited and unsophisticated definition of manhood
gonads do not make a man
Not asking for pie in the sky.
I am talking real stuff.
Since you aren’t CC, I don’t see how you are reforming them.
Right now this year how are you reforming CC, G?
Enough!
I haven’t done that in a while… 🙂
Gentlemen, you are better than this.
You all love the church and the people of God and I consider you all my brothers.
We disagree on methodology…but I believe we all want to see the Body safe and healthy.
G and I have been friends for years…MLD and I have been at it for years… 🙂 I hope if I keep doing this for more years that you all become as much a part of my life as they are.
Let’s take the heat down and bring some light.
I’m sure Michael is not proud of your descent into testicular tactics and terminology and with this comment I simply ask that you do better
thx Michael
Th#325 is such the answer I expected from someone who doesn’t even realize that the phrase has nothing to do with balls and all to do with real courage.
Gonads, for real G? Are we acting that “ignorant”?
Enough for the night.
Out for the night Michael.
back to reform, there are literally millions of people who have been through church grinders, who have come out as survivors, who are telling their stories. They are no more required to rejoin those churches to have a voice than are any others who have left unhealthy groups.
I commend Wright for remaining with his affiliation, but I agree completely with RiBo that reform is needed and I would cheer loudly if Wright were to make a public stand and call out fellow members of his affiliation to join him and make the same reforms he has instituted.
Out of respect for our women friends and posters, I will address 330 using a non-physical redefinition, let’s call it, “intestinal fortitude”, which is demonstrated by seen and unseen actions.
I choose to work and influence those who will listen, friends and acquaintances, to question freely and seek reform within their churches. I rarely bid them to leave, often encourage them to seek dialog and redress, and work to make change which they feel is needed.
I get it that Wright is doing the same thing in varied degrees, which I applaud.
May God continue to strengthen him in his efforts both visibly and invisibly.
May his “intestinal fortitude” increase and inspire those within his influence.
I love G 🙂
i sincerely doubt it
I do, we used to be close – I need to be more gentle. 🙂
friendships change, not always for the better
nuff said
Why is it not enough for Steve or me to lead our congregations in a Godly fashion? I believe every church CC or otherwise should have child protection policies and financial transparency. Because of that, the only church I have authority over does. When asked I tell people what I think. I was called to lead one church in one city, and so I will. Alex Griener feels a calling to make those policies standard in every church in America (starting with CC) – good for him, he should fulfill that calling. But I don’t expect him to fulfill my calling, and I don’t see why I am expected to fulfill his.
If ( |o )====:::, Andrew, and Alex Griener want to change policies at churches, maybe they should meet with local pastors and have a polite conversation offering some simple commonsense guideline changes and see how many are willing to make changes.
Attacking people online who have the policies you want, calling them less than men, and being an all around pain in the butt isn’t really working. As has been pointed out, most of the Calvary pastors have left here because it is a waste of time and energy to have the same discussions over and over again – and in the end be treated like a piece of trash as in the following comments of Alex:
#216 delusional or intentional jerks
#278 men of poor character (using the term men loosely)
Gee, I wonder why Calvary pastors don’t spend time here?
Shaun,
You ask some really great questions.
“Why is it not enough for Steve or me to lead our congregations in a Godly fashion?”
Because, left to no oversight, churches have only the peer influence of other pastors who have a vested interest to stay uninvolved in church polity.
It needs to be said, Calvary Chapel is structured, by ChuckSr, as an affiliation of Senior Pastors of individual “independent churches”, not an affiliation of “the local common people” who are your donors.
Because of that, any concerns voiced by persons who are not peer Senior Pastors are easily dismissed as those individuals “not hearing from The Lord” or being “in rebellion” or “not submitted to the shepherd who God appointed for them as overseer”.
Those individuals are cordially invited to simply vote with their feet, leave, and viewed as those who “The Lord has moved on” and any concerns raised are easily ignored.
You made this statement, “I believe every church CC or otherwise should have child protection policies and financial transparency. Because of that, the only church I have authority over does.”
Shaun, that is excellence in practice and example! You care in the unique position to influence the other Senior Pastors within your movement to adopt these common-sense safeguards, and I hope you tirelessly influence others in your position.
You state, “I was called to lead one church in one city, and so I will. Alex Griener feels a calling to make those policies standard in every church in America (starting with CC) – good for him, he should fulfill that calling. But I don’t expect him to fulfill my calling, and I don’t see why I am expected to fulfill his.”
Ok, fair enough. You are both men who are equipped uniquely for the good works you are called to fulfill. May God increase each of you in your influence, and may you view yourselves as colleagues, perhaps not today, perhaps not tomorrow, but soon, before you miss the blessings which God has for each of you.
Godspeed Shaun
Shaun said, “Attacking people online who have the policies you want, calling them less than men, and being an all around pain in the butt isn’t really working.”
It’s working to the tune of 6 million blog hits and counting and being contacted by all sorts of CC abuse victims, Chuck Smith’s own family members and many many folks and then telling their stories and helping real victims of abuse in CC.
Don’t tell me many in CC and elsewhere aren’t much more aware of the abuses and the need for changes, at least the fact there is someone watching and ready to report it when they go sideways.
…and eventually CC is going to get whacked like Catholic Church since your Association doesn’t do what it should to protect kids and there are victims and there are similar stories of cover up and toleration of this sort of thing in CC and hiring guys with prior issues but saying their healed or whatever only to re-offend.
It’s not a matter of if but when and I’ll be watching for the rest of my life until or unless some real changes are made.
To address this, “If ( |o )====:::, Andrew, and Alex Griener want to change policies at churches, maybe they should meet with local pastors and have a polite conversation offering some simple commonsense guideline changes and see how many are willing to make changes.”
Hey, I’m just a guy who spent decades with Calvary Chapels, if my opinion has no value, so be it.
But, influence happens in many forms. The fact that you’re reading, considering, acting and discussing with others means I am reaching someone who is certainly in a position to bring reform.
Again, Godspeed
MLD said, “What’s this “we” – none of you are a part of CC ”
Bull shiite muslim.
I’m a product of CC, grew up in CC, gave blood to CC (metaphorically). I’ll always be a part of CC. I was literally born into it, my dad, my step-dad, my mom all CC, lived on The Land in Shiloh, married by CC, baptized the first time at CC, walked forward at CC, rededicated a zillion times at CC, learned my first theology at CC etc.
and yet you bailed – walked away – tossed in the towel – quit – left your people behind –
“and yet you bailed – walked away – tossed in the towel – quit – left your people behind -”
Me? No, I was kicked out by my step-dad, cut off etc.
I won’t go now b/c the bulk of the CC pastors I’ve seen are not very bright, over-confident for the very limited skillset and talent they actually possess, their church govt. Moses Model is b.s., the finances are opaque and most of the money funds the overhead and the pastor’s lifestyle and very little helps real people other than “the great words from the anointed pastor!” and they don’t have mandatory child protections in place so your kid could be being overseen by a child predator.
Shaun,
Gotta ask, do you find the following kind of dialog helpful?
“and yet you bailed – walked away – tossed in the towel – quit – left your people behind -“
MLD has morphed into a troll. It was bound to happen. He’s run out of material.
You can only defend infant baptism and Martin Luther’s antisemitism for so long before you go troll LOL.
RiBo,
One more insult to Steve and you’re moderated.
Period.
I find it helpful
G,
Shaun didn’t say that.
No, Michael, he most certainly DID NOT.
Thankfully
I am asking him if he finds such dialog to be helpful to the discussion.
RiBo,
Please, don’t get yourself moderated.
Engage Shaun in meaningful dialog, I think you will make the progress you seek
Steve you are such a CC pastor, you are so much like Chuck Smith.
Am I moderated? That’s the worst thing I could think of LOL.
Michael,
Sorry for the unintended ambiguity!
:: sigh ::
ok, gotta go update a friend’s website
RiBo, please, Shaun’s listening to you, focus away from Wright and focus on a good dialog with Shaun. Everyone here will appreciate it and learn much.
peace
Shaun said, “If ( |o )====:::, Andrew, and Alex Griener want to change policies at churches, maybe they should meet with local pastors and have a polite conversation offering some simple commonsense guideline changes and see how many are willing to make changes.”
What I am going to do is report the abuses and bad practices and have a page for every CC on my blog and they can comment whether or not they have good practices in place and what they are doing to be different than the norms I’ve encountered.
I just need 48 hours a day and 10 day weeks and 50 day months and more coffee.
Folks will find the pastors and churches when they search…and more stuff will come out and while it’s not ideal and would be much better if CC Association provided its own accountability, it will have to do.
#342 – I never said your opinion had no value, and apologize if it came across that way. My point was polite conversation with practical solutions spoken to people who need them and are willing to listen are more valuable than the vitriol spewed towards those who are not guilty. The people you want to change aren’t here.
The only reason this blog has had any impact on me is because I believe the voice of dissent can be very valuable. Most people have enough common sense to stay away from places where a number of those present hate you, and everytime you comment you will be attacked. For Steve and I to spend time here shows that we care for the causes and the people here – even those who see us as the enemy.
“You can only defend infant baptism and Martin Luther’s antisemitism ”
But at least I have 2 topics to discuss – you only one “burn down the village!!!” 🙂
Shaun,
Just for the record, I do not see you as “the enemy”, nor do I see anyone else here as one.
Love your people whom you serve, not as sheep, but as valued brothers and sisters, equals, I don’t think you will ever go wrong.
Thanks for dialoging with me.
CC pastor Shaun said, “My point was polite conversation with practical solutions spoken to people who need them and are willing to listen are more valuable than the vitriol spewed towards those who are not guilty. The people you want to change aren’t here.”
Who knows if you guys are guilty or not, time will tell.
McCoy presented himself as squared away and it looking like that isn’t the case.
Same goes for many CC pastors with similar issues as more and more info comes in.
Polite is no longer an option, polite and $5 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.
Don’t mess up or I’m sure I’ll eventually hear about it. Don’t cover up for child abuse in your church or be corrupt with your finances. Eventually your sin might find you out.
Shaun instituted ministry at his church years ago reaching out to those struggling with mental illness. He did so although that type of ministry wasn’t and still isn’t common in CC’s. For me personally that is a huge thing. A man willing to do that type ministry is a man who has a heart for people and speaks volumes.
Wouldn’t it be something if we were to learn that God is pleased with what Steve and Shaun are doing as they seek to minister to HIS people? Maybe they don’t need instructions and ideas in pastoring their churches because they are doing things the right way??
“McCoy presented himself as squared away and it looking like that isn’t the case”
Big charge with just 1 allegation from an anonymous source.
You toss out these claims as if they are true right off the bat.
Let me ask you something – if you find no wrong doing are you going to write an article on you blog, calling out Concerned for making false allegations?
“Don’t mess up or I’m sure I’ll eventually hear about it”.
Is RB playing the big bad wolf here?
MLD, I have more of the story and I know the person to be real and named and she says she’s going to come forward and take this on. She’s extremely credible. McCoy and CC are in big trouble over this one. They did the wrong thing IMO and now it’s time to face the music.
“Wouldn’t it be something if we were to learn that God is pleased with what Steve and Shaun are doing ”
But RB is greater than God – so it doesn’t matter what God thinks … does it?
Brodersen’s in some hot water as well and there’s now another couple of CC issues coming in that will be dealt with eventually. I am inundated right now and just doing my due diligence and seeing where it all goes but it will eventually get reported on, all of the above.
MLD you’re trolling again. You were more interesting when you actually lent some value once in awhile.
“Let me ask you something – if you find no wrong doing are you going to write an article on you blog, calling out Concerned for making false allegations?”
When you find out who this person is and what position they hold, you will probably regret this comment. Nah, no you won’t b/c you’re trolling.
So as usual you did not answer the question -” if you find no wrong doing are you going to write an article on you blog, calling out Concerned for making false allegations?”
Easy question – yes / no
who cares who the person is if she is lying?
I don’t think she’s lying, but time will tell. I am under no obligation to answer your questions, you don’t answer all of mine so gfy.
ouch!!
RiBo, Polite is always an option as far as conversation with you and Shaun and any other CC pastor. Just make the decision to be polite and it would serve you well.
I am all for bringing to justice anyone who would molest a child. I have seen up close and personal the devastation it brings upon the innocent victim and how that devastation follows them into adulthood. It impacts marriages and the children of the molestation victims. It’s a heinous crime.
I imagine that for some who read here just seeing this topic brought up triggers all sorts of buried emotions and memories. That being the case it behooves us to tread carefully in how we discuss molestation.
As this seems to be a topic you are dealing with I hope you have links for any victims who visit or read your blog that can be of help to their well being. That includes secular and christian professionals depending on the needs/desires of the victims. If just one person is helped then it’s all worth it. Even if none are you know you tried.
That is not to say that you aren’t helping anyone as it is. I hope you are because the damage is so profound and these victims need support. They need it desperately.
I disagree with your tactics (no surprise there) towards CC and CC pastors but the bottom line is I desire to see these victims helped.
As I have no idea of the things Shaun and Steve deal with in their private lives the same is true for you. I don’t know the details of all of the communication you receive and how it might drive or even overwhelm you at times. I’m sure you deal with life issues as all of us do and there’s more to you than the man who so easily pi**es off so many people.
I try to help victims with what I do. I read their stories and it’s heartbreaking. So I do what I can to try to make a difference. Knowing I try is enough for me.
It puzzles me how people whose goal is to help others can butt heads so much. I guess that’s life in the real world although I’m convinced communication face to face is more productive than sitting at our computer and typing away.
I’m off to watch the third installment of Lord Of The Rings. Good night.
“I’m convinced communication face to face is more productive than sitting at our computer and typing away.”
Not really, not with regards to meeting face-to-face with Chuck Smith, his attorney and Dave Rolph…though the Bob Caldwell meeting was productive and it was face-to-face.