Enough!
“Mr. Sweet is by no scriptural standard a Christian, but by every reasonable standard a New Age mystic and a pure Gnostic. “
So said Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries who evidently now has access to the Lambs Book of Life.
Similar accusations by Lighthouse Trails and Apprising Ministries pushed Skip Heitzig to the boundaries of his character and he removed Sweet from the speakers at a National Worship Leaders Conference being held at Calvary Albuquerque.
Thus, Heitzig joined the Inquisition.
He silently held the coats while the stoning began.
A cursory look at these websites will reveal everyone from Billy Graham to Mark Driscoll to be either heretics or apostates…smeared with vague accusations of being “emergent” or “contemplative” without defining either term.
In the past these sites have been a shameful annoyance, now they’ve drawn blood.
Because they are allowed to accuse without evidence or even explaining the crime, your blood, my friend, may be next.
In a world where the Fall shows greater manifestations every day we struggle mightily against the world, the flesh, and the devil.
We shouldn’t have to be protected from those in the family.
We’re going to find contact information for both sponsors and speakers to this event and we’re going to ask those moved by the Spirit to contact them and ask them to not participate in this conference as a protest to this injustice and as a show of support for the church in general and Sweet in particular.
You can use your Facebook page to share the statement Alan Hawkins made and I copied on my page.
It’s time to say ENOUGH! to the accusers of the brethren.
Amen.
Allright! Great job, man. I’ve been going back and forth with Ken Silva (Apprising) for a while about his slandering of another Christian leader. It’s like talking to a brick wall. If a brick wall could shout at people (Transcript is on my site). You’ve articulated the truth beautifully. I’m glad to be counted with you.
//AW
Mr. Prasch
You should have a pretty god view of that log.
I am fired up…I scare myself when I get fired up… 🙂
post 3 – god=good
This all gives me a knot in my stomach.
Praying.
Michael
I continue to hold to what I have been saying all along, these guys don’t have the intelligence to understand what they criticize. You have been asking from day one that they name the heresies. Have they? No! Why? Because they are clueless as to what Sweet and some others say. They see words that they attach meanings to.
I’m tempted to design a “coat rack” trophy award – (for those church leaders who stand by woodenly, with their arms up, in silence, hoping to look like a piece of stately furniture and not an actual participant during the stonings of the brothers) the first recipient would be Skip
Bob,
At the very least there is an ignorance of history and theology outside the confines of their constructions.
I am almost convinced that their strivings have little to do with doctrine and everything to do with creating and preserving a distinct identity for themselves.
I am completely convinced that this is the most loveless sect in Christendom.
If these ODM’s didn’t have a intrigue or controversy, they would not have a ministry. They HAVE to keep their sheep fired up or they have no “ministry.”
I am so sick of it and even more saddened by it all.
What happened to humbly going to a brother and asking him where he stand on Jesus and the Bible, etc? Why all the hate? I just don’t get it.
Praying.
That should be “where he stands…..”
Nonnie,
Whats worse is when a brother makes a clear statement and it’s rejected without thought or dialog…it’s disgraceful.
“He [Heitzig] silently held the coats while the stoning began” sure hope that analogy carries on thru to a similar good end…
Isaiah56:1 “I’m tempted to design a “coat rack” trophy award – (for those church leaders who stand by woodenly, with their arms up, in silence, hoping to look like a piece of stately furniture …” worth reading the posts just for this one
like nonnie, am praying still
Michael, Re: your number 13. I agree completely with you! I just don’t understand how anyone who loves Jesus would not stop and contact Mr. Sweet before continuing to verbally assault him. It is so hateful and I really do not understand it.
Actually I DO understand it. They have no “ministry” unless they can assail others and keep their “sheep” all fired up and excited about who the flavor of the month is to hate.
I am just so sad over this. What makes me more sad is that people in my church embrace this type of stuff.
Nonnie,
How do we reach those folks in your church and others?
That’s my greatest concern right now…
MB, all kinds of pontifications come to mind, but there’s a good reason why we look forward to a new heaven and a new earth, isn’t there?
I had a dear good friend (sweetest, gentlest soul, but peppery at times – a lot like you i suspect). Her beloved toy poodle was dying and said the worst words that she’d let come out of her mouth: “OH! i HATE the devil!”
me too – don’t blame God, He’s working the problem and it must be a big one for all that we’re going thru… He must do it by some mysterious means that does not compromise His own integrity, eh? Praise and trust Him for His heart hurts for you now.
I don’t know. I pray, share quotes and try to engage about this when the topic comes up, but it seems this type of stuff is quite “exciting” for some folks.
Adam Whitley said, “I’ve learned more about God from my little boy than any book I’ve ever read. It’s one thing to call God your father, It’s a whole other thing to experience fatherhood. I firmly believe the things we experience in life like parenthood, love, anger, joy, frustration and sadness are not just good illustrations of how God works, but a window into who God is.”
Amen, amen, amen.
Michael said, “How do we reach those folks in your church and others?
That’s my greatest concern right now…”
One at a time.
Keep on pressing for Truth and example how to do this “stuff” right.
It’s like Amway. If each of us influences three friends…and they influence three friends…and so on…you get the idea. It can become viral.
MB….praying for you and your daughter.
I remember when we were moving our family to the Philippines and we had to give our 2 dogs away. We had moved out of our home and were living in a tiny camper/trailer. All of us were lying in bed one night trying to pray, but instead were crying over the loss of our beloved pets. It didn’t matter that we had sold or given away all of our furniture, household goods, most of our clothes and the children’s toys…none of that bothered us….but our hearts ached over losing our dogs.
I have never forgotten that night as we cried out unto the Lord. But I have also never forgotten than His grace was truly sufficient. We hurt but He was there to hold us and comfort us.
Love to you and your family.
MB…praying for you and your family…grief is no fun. May God comfort you guys in your pain and losses.
Believe…..AMWAY……groan !!!!! 😉
…hey Nonnie…what are you and your husband doing for dinner tonight? Do you want to come over…I have a business opportunity that I am very excited to show you! 🙂 🙂
We need a lot of help… one thing that has been shown is that the critics will not ever back down… they will not allow Sweet’s most recent teachings to represent the best view of his thinking or faith. They insist on twisted views of old words.
Satan is the twister of truth…why will they not allow simple straightforward confessions on the part of Sweet to suffice. What is it about these people.
Believe, Ha!!!! I just had to comment on your Amway comment.
I remember when we were baby Christians and a couple at our church approached us and asked us if we could have coffee together. We were so thrilled to be asked out by other Christians and readily invited them over. They arrived and half way through the coffee he pulls out a huge pie chart and informs us they are raising money to go on the mission field and “as you can see by the chart, we only need $500 more each month to meet our needs, etc, etc.” It was just like an Amway Ambush!
I was so disgusted, hurt, disappointed, embarrassed, and uncomfortable. I couldn’t wait for them to leave. We did not give to their ministry. 10 years later, when we were going on the mission field and going through our missions training, we remembered that horrible incident and knew we never wanted to put anyone in that position.
Today, after 23 years on the mission field, living “by faith”, we continue to be amazed at the Lord’s provision for us in so many incredible ways without pie charts or cornering anyone with our need. No Amway tactics needed for God’s children. He is faithful. He is our Jehovah Jireh.
Lifeway and Thomas Nelson are the main sponsors for this event.
I’m searching for contact info.
Hey Believe, I just wanted you to know that I continue to pray for you and your family situation. I know many here pray for you.
This week I am teaching in James 4. James says, in verse 11, “Do not speak evil of one another” or literally, “Do not speak against one another.” I haven’t figured out how to call attention to someone violating this command without violating it myself. Strange and ironic. But verse 17 is pretty clear: “To him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.” No comments from me.
Holly,
I’m praying for you and Allison.
James 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
Ҧ Do your best to come to me soon.
For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia,Titus to Dalmatia.
Luke alone is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is very useful to me for ministry.
Tychicus I have sent to Ephesus.
When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books, and above all the parchments.
Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds.
Beware of him yourself, for he strongly opposed our message.
At my first defense no one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. May it not be charged against them!
But the Lord stood by me and strengthened me, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion’s mouth.
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.”
(2 Timothy 4:9–18 ESV)
Somewhere between the two is understanding…
“…no purpose whatsoever, just an endless existence filled with misery, death, pain, and untold grief.”
All too often I agree, “what’s the point in living?” No I’m not advocating anything I am just agreeing with the above statement. The “circle of life” really is pointless and in the end all people are just dust. Besides which in the jungle a lion will eat any cubs which aren’t his.
My frustration with “church” is it appears to be about building edifices to men and putting men in power. Even the 12 were not immune, they argued up to the finale week of Jesus’ life about who would sit along side Him in His Kingdom.
I want to be at peace, shalom, in the midst of all this pointless stuff and I am starting to feel this devil chasing is more a distraction to draw His people into kaos rather than peace.
Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
1 Tim. 5:19-20
Good points, Michael and AV. I’ll use those verses in my message.
Dave,
Your point is well taken…but in cases like this the “doing good” that I know is to stand with a brother whose reputation is being ruined.
I might be wrong…but I hope I’m wrong for the right reason.
The catch phrase from Pastor Chuck when I was growing up in the Calvary movement was: If I err, let me err on the side of grace.
In this situation it seems like the choice of CCABQ, and the ODMers and their followers, has been made to err on the side of accusation
I think the James passage is most appropriate (in this case) as to judging or speaking evil against those brothers who do not join the cause.
In other words, I see nothing in the Bible about not calling out sin, injustice and the like – publically. What Michael, Dread and others are doing is not unBiblical.
However, each of us have our priorities and what hills we feel the Lord would have us die on.
I’m adamantly pro-life, but I do not feel called to leave my family and go to jail today, though I could easily do a little civil disobedience (and there are many Christians out there urging me to do so – or else I must not REALLY be pro-life).
In fact, the linkathon a couple weeks back had a post stating that Christians ALL need to adopt and if you haven’t you have no right to open their mouths and express an opinion about whether homosexuals should adopt – and it also implied you really don’t have much love of Christ in your life if you haven’t adopted.
Since I have adopted, I took special outrae at that accusation against the brethren and expressed it on her blog post.
I think that is the sort of judgemet James speaks of – I am not your servant, nor you mine.
Isn’t it funny how often we preface our cause with ‘if you feel led, if the Spirit guides you etc’ and then blast the believer when the Spirit does not lead THEIR way
AV,
I hope both BD and myself aren’t doing that…this is a matter of individual conscience and I agree with what you’re stating.
In this situation it seems like the choice of CCABQ, and the ODMers and their followers, has been made to err on the side of accusation
This is exactly it with this crowd — they always, always, always err on the side of accusation. Grace? Giving a brother the benefit of the doubt? What’s that all about?
Luth –
Oh I think they do what they consider “erring on the side of grace” – it’s just too often used an opportunity to cover up or excuse a moral lapse.
When it comes to questionable moral actions, then we are told to err on the side of grace and keep quiet and not say anything or expect accountabiltiy or consequences for the actions, but…
when it comes to questions of understanding someones teachings, then better to err on the side of accusation, and safter to condem then be faced with accepting a brother we have disagreements with. How sad is that???? Backwards.
I agree with AV.
I look forward to listening to Pastor Dave’s message online.
I would say to use words “He silently held the coats while the stoning began.” is exaggerating things, and Christians are not to lie, and exaggeration is a form of lying.
Michael, I wasn’t implying either of you were in this case. Just my little take on the James passage.
But it is something we all have to watch for when we are personally passionate about an injustice – certainly I do.
Isaiah, your 11:43am. EXACTLY.
That is going on the PP “Wall of Wisdom” 🙂
you know … i’m sitting here thinking as i read the thread (difficult in my advanced years 🙂 ) Sweet, himself, is not really harmed -i n the big picture of his life this is not much more than an annoying taste of man’s old sin nature showing up in the Body… but the real harm is to the integrity and appearance of Heitzig , his church group and his kind – the way they conduct themselves …
praying for him also, lest God turn him into a coat rack permanently 🙁
Linda,
It’s indeed hyperbole…but with a Biblical basis.
“Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”
(1 John 3:15 ESV)
“¶ “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison.
Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.”
(Matthew 5:21–26 ESV)
Linda, that’s one interpretation from Michael’s communication…and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
OK, Exaggeration = lying.
Moriel said, ““Mr. Sweet is by no scriptural standard a Christian, but by every reasonable standard a New Age mystic and a pure Gnostic. “”
What would you call this statement, especially in light of Len Sweet’s clear articulation of Faith in Jesus Christ?
Linda, it’s a “tad bit” overly dramatic, but it’s not lying.
Plus, it matches the picture. 😉
I take ‘err on the side of grace’ as a foundation to my ministry philosophy. However, I never think to apply it in the ways one often hears it said today in the CC movement.
Isa’s 11:43 speaks truth, but it depends, also, on where you are on the food chain … if you’re low enough, you’ll catch it for sure – gotta keep the sheep clean ?
Linda, just a snippet from The Jesus Manifesto…co-authored by Len Sweet:
“We, therefore, members of the body of Christ, assembled in virtual space and real space, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the moral integrity of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the holy Scriptures, solemnly publish and declare, that we return to the absolute preeminence and sovereignty of Jesus—the triumphant, victorious, resurrected, ascended, enthroned, glorified, Lord of the universe and God’s All in All.”
Would say it is an “exaggeration” to call Sweet a “New Age mystic” and a “pure Gnostic”?
Em,
Unless they paid Len Sweet the exact same amount of money to not speak at the conference as they would have to speak, and they some how compensate him for the amount of merchandise (books, whatever) he would have sold at that conference as a result of his speaking., and they compenstated him for any future speaking engagements he would have been able to book as a result of that one….then yes, he was harmed.
Plus…the looney toon ODMs have smeared the guys name, calling him stuff like “demonically influenced”. I still think it’s just cause they aren’t smart enough to understand what the guy is saying, but…I’m pretty sure that kind of “press” on the internet has to have some sort of effect on his pocket book.
Sometimes, it IS about the money.
Trust me, Skip will come out smelling like a rose. He always does. There will be zero harm to his perceived “integrity”.
Michael, you make me laugh. Here you are, viciously attacking other Christian bloggers you don’t agree with, calling out the lions, speaking ex cathedra from the supreme authority of your little blog, declaring a form of evangelical jihad. You are in no position to declare, “ENOUGH!” about anything. Being evangelical means you get to make things up as you go, or maybe you haven’t noticed what’s really going on. We don’t have a magisterium, we don’t have a pope, we have millions of little popes like you who want to declare their view as the only way. There is real irony here in your post. Save your phoenix papal bull and find something more edifying to do besides going after other Christian bloggers with different views. We’re all entitled to anathematize for any reason at all. You proved it by your own post.
Ken Silva puts me in the headline:
http://apprising.org/2010/05/27/phoenix-preacher-says-enough-of-alleged-odms/
His readers will actually read some true statements…
Maybe it is just a personal thing with me but I don’t like how it feels when I soil myself with other peoples’ dung. I have enough of my own, and fixing me is a full time job for me. I have great ideas about how others could be fixed, but they seldom appreciate my brilliant insights. I keep finding logs in my own eye, and when I focus on them I at least have a cooperative patient who is in love with his doctor.
But I am not being critical of anyone here who feels called to do what they are doing.
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke
London – Amen!
We all have different callings at different times…Dave usually has about a dozen things going at once and all are for the benefit of the Body.
I’m called to this and I appreciate both those who join me and those who work in other ways.
Pastor Dave…different parts of the Body.
You are the frontal lobe…
Someone has to deal with the Body’s “dung”…and you know what Body part does that…
Michael…guess what part of the Body you are? 🙂
Believe,
You must be into discernment… 🙂
Ken will eventually tire of you. He seems to claim direct revelation from God and then slams others who do the same. His logical fallacies have been around for a while. I used to think that he was worth the argument, but he’s not. I say just ignore. Call his Director of Area missions, they don’t even consider his church a viable church. He’ll answer for the evil he’s done and continues to do.
It’s good to know that Rolph doesn’t have one judgmental bone in his body 🙂
On a lighter note, how and the heck is everybody? I’m sitting in Fremont, IN. Chillin’ out after a long day of driving. Deliver my load of frozen veggies up in Wisconsin tomorrow.
Next time you talk to a trucker, give him or her a BIG hug and thank him or her for what he or she does. Think about it, practically everything you have in your home, eat, wear, etc. has been delivered by a truck 🙂
Michael… 8)
I would have loved to have been Pastor Dave’s kid. He’s the Anti-Bob.
Scott,
Truckers are part of our economic backbone…but I avoid hugging men at truck stops… 🙂
Michael, I know what you mean, I avoid that as well.
Well, just give ’em a high 5 then 🙂
“The problem is that people like Leonard Sweet fail the test of Scripture on numerous levels. People who defend such wolves like Sweet also fail the test. Liberals just don’t want anyone saying “no” to them. They don’t want the rules of Scripture applied to them unless it merely benefits their agenda.”
Whew….your damned, Mr. Newman. 🙂
Source: http://surphside.blogspot.com/
Hi,
From the article Eric linked to;
“First, I wonder if Leonard Sweet really cares that Calvary Chapel revoked their invitation? Could it be that Newman is far more upset than Sweet? Is this just another reason to fire shots at those God has gifted with love and discernment?”
Ken Silva doesn’t have the “gift of discernment or love”. Ken is all about Ken and being a “big dawg”. I base this on my personal experience with this man and just like my friend Joe I’ve done my research.
Good night from Corfu!
Phil
I’m in good company…C.S. Lewis is on her banned books list.
“I avoid hugging men at truck stops… 🙂 ”
….that was funny.
Now that I think about it…you should avoid hugging women at truck stops too 🙂
Wow, banning C.S. Lewis.
I am believing more and more that many of the ODMs really lack understanding…jump to bogus conclusions to fill in the intellectual interludes…then embark on ethereal doctrinal witch hunts.
They should stick to discernment regarding tangible issues in Church Leadership like child abuse, moral failures, financial misconduct…clear-cut issues like that.
For what it’s worth, I was thinking about this situation (battle with the ODM) yesterday. Reflecting especially on Galatians 6. He fought a HUGE battle with the “circumcision”.
Couldn’t help but shed a tear when I considered Paul’s final words to the Galatians, “From now on let no one cause trouble for me, for I bear on my body the brand-marks of Jesus.”
That’s quite a legacy, eh?
Old Paul was such a wise old sage by this point in his life. What excellent counsel and focus he gave to those Galatians:
Galatians 6:1-5 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. 2Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5For each one will bear his own load.
If Jesus early encounters with people were selectively judged by the same methodologies and criterion that Sweet has been judged … these ODMs would have been leading the charge to crucify him.
Jesus talked with nuance, with figures of speech, with many words that could easily have been construed as blasphemy (and were), he ministered and associated with many people who were questionable….he did not justify or always explain himself.
I have no doubt that Lighthouse Trails and Apprising Ministries would have judged Jesus as destroying the faith of those who were earnestly looking for the appearance of the true Davidic Messiah…
These ‘clouds without rain’ smear but do not deal with real evidence or carefully sought out truth. They seek out every opportunity to destroy a man’s name. They lie about people incessantly. We have run into these before…
Phil,
Every man cares when his name is slandered … well, me n Michael don’t much care but most people do…
Oh by the way for all my pseudonym critics.
Alan Hawkins wrote this one and the one above and all the Babylon’s Dread stuff…
It’s a really sad legacy, I’m afraid.
Paul’s encouragement was, “So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.”
Len Sweet is by his own confession a member of the household of faith. So is Silva, Heitzig and Moriel.
Therefore, instead of communicating in the light, coming to the table of reconciliation and finding a common thread of fellowship, we have Christians shooting at each other. The mark of a Christian should be one that can at least look the other person in the eyes and listen and communicate.
It’s grievous.
Scott said, “Therefore, instead of communicating in the light, coming to the table of reconciliation and finding a common thread of fellowship, we have Christians shooting at each other. The mark of a Christian should be one that can at least look the other person in the eyes and listen and communicate. ”
Scott your touching on a very very important point here.
Matthew 18.
Dialogue. Sitting down and hashing things out until they are resolved. This takes a lot of humility and a lot of sensitivity to sin…and a lot of openness to the Holy Spirit.
The most frustrating part is when the other party won’t enter a dialogue and submit themselves to the authority of Scripture in these areas.
Now I’m an anti discernment, emergent, apostate.
http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?137629-anti-discernment-Emergent-Phoenix-Preacher-Says-%93Enough%94-of-Alleged-%93ODMs%94&p=1823707#post1823707
I have invited Silva to a dialog with each other that would be posted on both sites.
No response.
I know you have Michael. That’s the one thing I really appreciate about you.
That an old crusty Calvinist like you is even caught up in this mess is a mystery to me 🙂
These ODMs always preface the names of people they scorn with titles intended to smear them. Half the people have no idea what Emergent even means… it is sort of a catch phrase like Liberal, … let’s keep it simple and clear…
These Lying Liar ODMs are at it again… everyone understands that.
Not that it matters, Alan Hawkins is my Hero..
I mean, I appreciate other things about you too… 🙂
That’s why I came to respect and embrace Ted Haggard as brother in Christ, he came into the light and answered anything and everything (within reason) that was thrown at him.
Hell, I would even have felt some affinity towards the Toddster if he hadn’t hidden behind Rick Joyner’s bottled water promotion.
I do not know Mr. Sweet. However there are some heretical teachings making their rounds in evangelicalism, especially as they concern the redemptive exclusivity of Jesus Christ. But even they must be addressed with love and the clothing of humility. But there is such a thing as a heretic.
However, I find the gap between what I know of Christ and what I manifest of Christ to be an horrific heresy. Apparently some discerners operate with many windows and few mirrors.
Scott,
Dr. Packer has taught me…gifted me…to treat the whole Body as family without compromising my doctrine.
Packer and Calvin are my theological fathers…and both sought unity as much as possible.
I would dishonor the legacy that they have left us to do anything else.
“However, I find the gap between what I know of Christ and what I manifest of Christ to be an horrific heresy.”
That is so true of myself as well…
I have said from the beginning, and this is just my own personal opinion, I see nothing Christian about these ODMers.
Personally, I take their views about the ones they dismember, as no different from the conversations I have with atheists on various sites.
I think that most of these ODMers have been hurt by the Church and are striking out.
I just treat them as I would the pagan and tax collector. They are a blight on the church.
Rick, true. Thus, the reason Paul exhorted us to “examine” our “own work…”
If these Guys spent have the time examining themselves as they do chasing the boogey man around and out of Calvary Chapel, these things wouldn’t even be an issue.
When I think about it, this must be sort of embarrassing to Skip and the like too be honest with you. That he had to have Moriel and company finger Sweet for expulsion? Like he can’t think or discern for himself?
I understand what’s at stake here and why Michael and others are so passionate. May the Lord grant wisdom.
What really bothers me about all this stuff is I want to know Christ and all these (ODM) and many who are married to a church denomination seem to want me to know is doctrine. The world is full of doctrines and religious activity, but where is the God man Jesus in all of it.
What a shame and time waster these witch hunts are.
My new FB religious profile…
“Religious Views:
if it doesn’t show in how I act then it doesn’t matter”
just passing thru and wondering if Heitzig hasn’t committed a big tactical error…
if his goal is to always look good, he don’t and some of the people that he don’t, are people that he want to
what’d she say? dunno 😆
God keep all close and comforted in Truth this night
PEOPLE,
I have decided to ACT on this… please DO something. Jacob Prasch has flatly condemned Leonard Sweet to hell. That is above the man’s pay grade. But he and others have sufficiently pressured a national conference to the point of Sweet being censored from a meeting. IT IS WRONG!; Tell them so tell them directly.
And ask the leaders of the conference to cancel the event… and ask the speakers to cancel themselves. And ask CCAbq to reconsider their action.
Ask Ed Stetzer and Thom Ranier of the Southern Baptists to stand up for the man they invited to this event. Ask Chuck Fromm to do something.
Please speak up loudly. Do something. Be kind but firm. Be truthful but unyielding. They have no case against this man. He is clearly clearly a lover of Christ.
and our brother….
These “conferences” are given way too much weight and publicity. And as evidenced by this situation they provide a target for discernment ministries as well as an oportunity for some to acquiesce to unwelcome pressure. To demand that Sweet be rescheduled is hardly the issue. What needs to be addressed and examined is who we all are accountable to for such things.
If I can be made to withdraw an invitation based upon someone’s blog posts, then what else will I succomb to when confronted with negative attacks? This blog thing continues to receive too much spiritual importance and authority. Like children with baseball cards we compare and trade and evaluate based upon the writings of people who we will never meet or know. Let us move into the freedom of the Spirit that does not give any import to blog writings but does journey into personal and interpersonal examinations of our walk before the Risen Christ.
If something is given in love and humility, and if we can genuinely discern a redemptive spirit in it, then a brother or sister’s writings can build up and even correct the body. But if that writing is one brick in a continuing wall of self righteousness and castigation, and if those writings represent a scorched earth policy that seeks to destroy rather than repair, then they must be rejected without malice.
The evil one operates within clandestine methods, and he can even trap those who see the errors in others; like me who sees the errors in those who see the errors in others. All of which is predominately a distraction from my core calling – to live like Jesus so that others might believe in Him.
And to some of the discernment ministries: iron cannot sharpen iron when there is only one sword.
I am taking a little break from the PP.
God bless.
Chuck Smith and all the decent CC pastors have much to lose by the damage Saliva and P-rash are doing on behalf of the reputation of Calvary Chapel. At what point is the danger recognized and dealt with by CC leadership? If Skippy is dancing to their flutes, who is next? Do these li’l yappers really have teeth? A one-sentence statement by Chuck Smith could silence them all. To capitulate to their demands exposes one as an invertibrate.
Hey let’s just write Skip Heitzig as well. I intend to write to them and ask them to reconsider this action. This is wrong. At least they need to speak out about it.
Oh by the way… I have done a gentle and kind half hour program on it on the radio that will air Saturday… Next week I intend to do it again. The community needs to be apprised.
We gotta clean this up… no reason for it to end like this.
Xenia
What is your problem with this thread? What is troubling you?
Dread, it doesn’t matter.
Perhaps not Xenia you must make that decision,
But for me I am speaking up because this matters. Truth always matters. And love matters and when powerful people are abusing others by their exercise of power then we must speak. My passion on this matter is partly because it is my city where this is happening, it is partly because Len Sweet is known to me, and it is partly because I am simply offended at the horrendous wrong of it. Sweet could be rejected at the next place because of this rejection…
Someone has something to gain here… someone has something to lose. Who is it and what is it? Leonard Sweet has not been removed because of a badly dated out of print book that he himself has regrets about. He is being rejected because someone has a stake in this mess.
So I am going to ask everyone until someone tells me. Or until I run out of options.
Dread, I am not saying the situation doesn’t matter. I am saying my reasons for not participating don’t matter.
Xenia
I understood…
dread,
on the radio? do you broadcast via the web as well?
Personally it is this feeding frenzy is why I dont want to be involved in “ministry” anymore. Now dont get me wrong I do not consider what I have ever done as well worth much, another wonderful gift of the Christian religion. By the way I have looked at their blogs, they are wanting and if they want one example a theory and facts are different, Mr. Prasch, a theory explains “facts”.
Centy … it can be heard on the radio … search for KKIM albuquerque … You will find it.. http://www.mykkim.com/ Noon MDT on Saturday… like I said I went gentle… next week I will hit with both fists. I will ask big questions.
Brian,
As for this feeding frenzy.. it has never been any other way… this faith of ours is LOADED with conflict … it will not change. I for one have embraced the reality.
i am a recent ‘lurker’ here at PP. The insight, thoughtfulness and intent to base your POV’s in His word is evident. The conversation continues to support my personal point of view and experience that members of the body of Christ are inclined to shoot our wounded… so self defeating.
#10 M*B the description of despair you provided precisely a window into the last decade of my daily walk in His service and within the ‘church culture’.
thank you all for providing such a vibrant and authentic venue…. and to one of yours that invited me here… thank you.
His MaidServant
Na’amah,
Thank you and welcome…I needed to hear that tonight.
Michael,
THANK YOU for continuing to provide such a place where authenticity is allowed, even in disagreement, our ongoing hurt and pain and even when we need our brother or sister to confront us in illogical thinking with love… without being ‘excommunicated’.
“Love believeth all things—not that the Christian knowingly and willingly allows himself to be imposed upon—not that he divests himself of prudence and judgment, that he may be the more easily taken advantage of—not that he unlearns the way of distinguishing black from white. What then? He requires here, as I have already said, simplicity and kindness in judging of things; and he declares that these are the invariable accompaniments of love. The consequence will be, that a Christian man will reckon it better to be imposed upon by his own kindness and easy temper, than to wrong his brother by an unfriendly suspicion.” Calvin
“We understand the pre-eminence of love if we see it in reference to the other marks of the church. What happens when you take love away from them? Suppose you subtract love from joy? What do you have? You have hedonism, an exuberance in life and its pleasures, but without the sanctifying joy found in relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Subtract love from holiness. What do you find then? You find self-righteousness, the kind of self-contentment that characterized the Pharisees of Christ’s day. By the standards of the day the Pharisees lived very holy lives, but they did not love others and thus were quite ready to kill Christ when he challenged their standards.
Take love from truth and you have a bitter orthodoxy, the kind of teaching which is right but which does not win anybody.
Take love from mission and you have imperialism, colonialism in ecclesiastical garb.
Take love from unity and you soon have tyranny. Tyranny develops in a hierarchical church where there is no compassion for people or desire to involve them in the decision-making process.
Now express love and what do you find? All the other marks of the church follow. What does love for God the Father lead to? Joy. Because we rejoice in God and in what he has done for us. What does love for the Lord Jesus Christ lead to? Holiness. Because we know that we will see him one day and will be like him: “Every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure” (1 Jn. 3:3). What does love for the Word of God lead to? Truth. If we love the Word, we will study it and therefore inevitably grow into a fuller appreciation of God’s truth. What does love for the world lead to? Mission. We have a message to take to the world. Where does love for our Christian brothers and sisters lead us? Unity. Because by love we discern that we are bound together in that bundle of life which God himself has created within the Christian community.”
Boice, J. M. (1986). Foundations of the Christian faith : A comprehensive & readable theology (584–585). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.
Michael,
having reviewed our brother Heitzig’s comments and thoughts, i seriously doubt his intellectual capacity, let alone his attention span, to navigate his way through your so thoughtfully provided insight via Calvin… due to the reality it challenges his POV 🙂 IMHO
unfortunately so many within positions of power or within the ‘undeclared’ positions of power within any leadership construct of any church only read and/or comprehend information that supports their established biases, viewpoints and prejudices. I do believe that the HS can challenge these walls and we still need to ‘agree’ to allow such things ‘in’… i am smiling Michael, it is an extremely difficult path for most of us to walk on when such information may undermine the “foundations” we’ve built to support (sometimes consciously, often unconsciously) our earthly mansions upon.
My Lord is sufficient to address all things that may challenges my held beliefs… questioning is not a threat but restorative… as long as i hold fast to the Word is God and was with God since the beginning…
Na’amah,
This is the time of night when the Spirit comes…and gently (sometimes not so gently) reminds me how easy it is to become that which we see in others.
Calvin strips the Word down to “lucid brevity”…and as much as I wish that others would understand I must make sure I comprehend the Word for myself.
We’re glad to have you aboard. 🙂
And it is he that by tyranny, cruelty, contempt of others, and needless proud singularities and separations, magisterially condemning and vilifying all that walk not in his fashion, and pray not in his fashion, and are not of his opinion, where it is like enough he is himself mistaken, that is the scandalous Christian; who doeth as much against God, and religion, and the church, and men’s souls, as he doeth against love. And though it be Satan’s way, as an angel of light, and his ministers’ way, as ministers of righteousness, to destroy Christ’s interest by dividing it, and separate things which God will have conjoined, and so to pretend the love of truth, the love of order, or the love of godliness or discipline, against the love of souls, and to use even the name of love itself against love, to justify all their cruelties, or censures, and alienations; yet God will keep up that sacred fire in the hearts of the sound Christians which shall live and conquer these temptations, and they will understand and regard the warning of the Holy Ghost: “I beseech you, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them,” in their sinful, dividing, offensive ways. “For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ,” though they may confidently think they do, “but their own belly,” or carnal interests, though perhaps they will not see it in themselves; “and by good words and fair,” or by “flattering speeches, deceive the hearts of the simple.” (Rom. 16:17, 18.) The word is twn akakwn, hominum minime malorum, “no bad men,” or “harmless, well-meaning men;” who, in case it be not to mortal errors, perhaps may be in the main sincere, and may be saved when their stubble is burnt; but whether sincere or not, they are scandals in the world, and great dishonourers of God, and serve Satan, when they little think so, in all that they do contrary to that universal love by which God must be glorified, and sinners overcome.
~Richard Baxter
(from “What Light Must Shine in Our Works?”)
Nomans,
That was wonderful…
There is a tyranny by powerful religious people that is more evil than any gross sin. It makes merchandise of people it is BABYLON… but it comes in the guise of righteousness. At its core it is rancid. Behind all of this stuff with Leonard Sweet is not a valiant heart for truth but BABYLON the whore… these decisions have not been made by principled men but by devils who lust for approval, for audience, for gain, for gold, for power.
If we could see it as it is we would see the wiping of the mouth and the blood of saints. I hate it and will not make peace with it.
Nor does Christ.
BD –
They are not devils…. Come on.
They are just guys. Albeit guys who are being quite crappy to someone else..
Don’t push your point too far and loose the credibility of your cry for civil discourse and reasoned behavior. If you want people to step away from the conference, I don’t think it’s helpful to be resorting to the same tactics of seeing the “devil” in those with whom we disagree.
Ya know?
“They are not devils”
Now I agree with that, having been called a devil, son of the devil, satanic, possessed, reprobate, heathen, God hater, etc. I will admit it hurt, it should not have but it did.
Good on ya London
But it was fun to write… and honestly those who do wicked thing for their own gain… are worse than you want to know. But thanks for chillin’ me out.
I still want them stopped
“This is the time of night when the Spirit comes…and gently (sometimes not so gently) reminds me how easy it is to become that which we see in others.”
Yes, amen. Lurking within us is exactly what we despise in others, and the only reason that “entity” is not loose and active is completely due to God’s gracious power. That should always dismantle any temptation to damn those who damn others. They are prisoners of certain kind of deception.
“But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. ”
And from the same chapter:
“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
That describes me who was once given to condemnation and called it “discernment”.
“that describes me who was once given to condemnation and called it “discernment”
well Rick you are certainly in very good company as Saul discovered 🙂 how i wish He would stop us so clearly in our vanities…of course it would be diagnosed as some type of hysterical psychological ailment today 🙂
Babylon’s Dread: please do NOT censor yourself…and it is delightful to ‘hear’ your thoughts in it’s purist and ‘raw’ form in response to the slander/libel of a brother because you are available to hear and respond to another’s (London’s) refocus. You are a rather amazing forum of thought filled believers…
BTW – I personally feel that some mysticism in a Christian context is helpful in a believer’s worship and walk. A dry, algebraic, and systematic theological approach to being a believing follower of Christ has evolved through a western, academic culture that prides itself on doctrinal knowledge and considers emotion and passion as intellectual weakness.
Brokenness is considered “uncertainty” is some circles. Please give us passionate and humble believers who have some doctrinal flaws rather than believers who claim to have all the doctrinal jots and tittles but who exhibit little love for sinners or saints, and to whom humility is foreign.
LOL….I’m sure it was fun to write, but you know how I feel about that whole “devil” thing anyway. 😉
and….for the record it’s not just church ppl that do wicked for their own gain.I’ve lived it up close and personal a time or two in my life and yeah, it’s pretty dang ugly I agree.
btw- mine was fun to write too 😛
later
I like this statement:
“There is a tyranny by powerful religious people that is more evil than any gross sin. It makes merchandise of people it is BABYLON… but it comes in the guise of righteousness.”
But let me take it one step further, maybe the tyranny is us! Jesus never slammed the doctrine of the Pharisees he only slammed what they laid on people and how they personally applied it. Do we do the same to others?
I also lick what Fruech said there has to be some spiritual content here, not a dry doctrine. The problem I see again is to often it has to be what I say the spiritual content should be.
Where is Jesus in all this madness!!!
I’ll take His yoke and burden of faith.
The Lord your God is one…
Nomans,
WOW!,
that was fantastic!
thx
Na’amah noted something (seems she has us all thinking) that i have sensed (i may be wrong 😆 ) the man in question who leads the Albuquerque CC church is not an intellectual. He probably has honed his skills in imitating and his conclusions are the conclusions of people that he wants to please – to put it kindly.
Someone up the way on this thread used the term “act” to describe our walk and that word got me thinking last night about the indwelling Christ. *Acting* Christ-like is analogous, perhaps, to using a compass. It’s a good thing. But the real renewing of our minds is internalizing the Word until it becomes a gyroscope and keeps us balanced no matter what direction we’re headed… If we’re good actors we may never mature in Christ. Our acting ability may insulate us from real accountability, perhaps.
We need more honest, mature BDs and Michaels in the Body. Character first and Doctrine second and d*mn the head count.
praying
MB “the world is filled with meaningless pain…”
at this point in life, i’m pretty convinced that the ‘meaning’ to the pain is the war, itself… we see glimpses of what the world could/should be and hate all the wounding going on… and we should hate it… but the end of the war is the meaning… IMHO
Habakkuk opens with this:
Lord, how long shall I cry for help, and you will not hear?
Or cry to you “Violence!” and you will not save?
Why do you make me see iniquity, and why do you idly look at wrong?
Destruction and violence are before me; strife and contention arise.
So the law is paralyzed, and justice never goes forth.
For the wicked surround the righteous; so justice goes forth perverted.
And God never really answers his complaints. Yet Habakkuk concludes with:
Though the fig tree should not blossom, nor fruit be on the vines,
the produce of the olive fail and the fields yield no food,
the flock be cut off from the fold and there be no herd in the stalls,
Yet I will rejoice in the LORD; I will take joy in the God of my salvation.
GOD, the Lord, is my strength; he makes my feet like the deer’s;
he makes me tread on my high places.
It’s OK to ask those hard questions. He will hear our complaints. And no matter how hard it gets, he will always be with us.
And God never really answers his complaints
—————————————————–
I would suggest that ‘the just shall live by faith’ was indeed an answer.
warning: no relevance to what follows:
just an aside because it was one of *those* moments -(i’ve been having a lot of them (coincidences)…
last nite i was really tired of the ODMs pushing in and mixing up and messing things up, so i looked for something to read that was light, but Christ centered and i found my grandmother’s old 1925 copy of “Christ of the India Road” – I realized that Jones’ name was familiar, but i didn’t know much about him and so i looked him up on Wikki’ – aaaand Leonard Sweet is the E Stanley Jones Professor of Evangelism at Drew Theological Seminary…
all these coincidences are making me dizzy… or maybe it’s this new mouse remote that causes my screen to scroll like a roulette wheel at times? 😀
#132 M*B i am refering to Bro. Heitzig’s thoughts and comments in general and not specifically to this issue of the ODM’s (truely sounds like a disease or syndrome diagnosis) slander/libel of L. Sweet.
Em you can adjust that roulette wheel scroll of your mouse by clicking into programs, then keyboard mouse controls and slow it down a bit 🙂
Na’amah, thanks for the tip – gonna go try right now 🙂
Na’amah, perfect! thank you
I suspect the ongoing conversation on this particular thread has moved on to another. (You all move much faster than I am able to process and consider such a diverse collection of viewpoints, a few even in the same writer :D) There is just so much insight and thoughtful POV’s in just this one thread! The thoughts and arguments, with often sited references included in support of your POV! I mean what an incredible resource for course material and discussion for one who teaches.
First, Michael and Sarah, thank you for providing such a venue. It is an incredible commitment of time, energy and risk separate and apart from all of your daily life requirements. i am not even going to share w you how each of your words and insights and humour have provided me w so much this last month or so i’ve been an unknown visitor here.
I realize as i participate i will inadvertently provide information that will/may provide to some of the more intuitive here and curious, information regarding my non cyber identity. It is important for me to maintain my anonyminity to protect the innocent (and definitely not so innocent) others around me. I share this because the vibrant appeal of this forum of believers is the authenticity and openess you share in this cyberspace fellowship. It does bother me i cannot be so open. That being said, the following comment is as much as i’ve been able to begin to process from your many words on just this one thread.
#129 Rick F said
“I personally feel that some mysticism in a Christian context is helpful in a believer’s worship and walk. A dry, algebraic, and systematic theological approach to being a believing follower of Christ has evolved through a western, academic culture that prides itself on doctrinal knowledge and considers emotion and passion as intellectual weakness.”
YES! one of the most vibrant ways people know that they are ‘alive’ is this connection to the mystical (often, and incorrectly, only identified as ‘feeling’) How do you explain a peace that transcends all understanding to a non believer in a logical, linear, Germanic argument? And thank goodness we are allowed both. I attempt to recreate a different focus of linear thought in clients’ personal lives i.e. a list, to thinking circular, a wheel w God in the center and spokes so God is not in “competion” w your other responsibilities, interests, commitments.
#134 Em
We need more honest, mature BDs and Michaels in the Body. Character first and Doctrine second and d*mn the head count. (and the many other insights and humour you provide here.)
LMAO, the d*mn the head count Francis Schaeffer never could seem to ‘grow’ his church and yet, it is a reality that growth is important in so many aspects of the physical running and functioning of the church
#136 Buster and #137 Another Voice
🙂 you are absolutely correct …sigh and it is such focus that prevents one like myself who has a tendency (improving w chronological maturity) to drift off into suppositions, possibilites and then ingratitude and discontent because i think my plan is so much more cognicent than ‘gasp’ His and i deserve attention, never mind He is attending to the UNIVERSE i do not like it how often we are called to live in faith w/out the ‘connection’ and physical evidence clearly present. And then someone like the two of you, others here too, bring my “feet” back to ground.
#121 Noomansapologist whoa howdie! still processing, digesting and now have another author to read 🙂
# Babylon’s Dread your sceen name is WONDERFUL i can only imagine how many have little clue on how to ‘deal w you’ some may even think “how to handle you” and more than a few ‘how to silence you’ in the Christian (and i suspect probably a few in the secular world) community. As London so wisely encouraged you to ‘chill out’ as you translated his communication style into your own. I counsel/teach others ‘the art and act of communication is to say what you want the other person to hear in the language or manner that will allow them to actually hear” Teaching young adults that even if they are providing ‘gospel truths’ to a parent,boss or any other person, when they drop the F*** bomb, for many their ears immediately become totally non functional no matter how important or true words following may be.
# Bob Sweat wisdom, humour and alive comes to mind from your comments here and on other threads
Believe you risk yourself in your openess in a willingness to pursue truth, i hope you are more self protective away from this forum
Brian,Bryan, Scott, Bob, ML’s disciple, M*B, Dave, filberts ( like the nuts?), Eric, Nonnie, Isaiah (coat rack trophy! lolol) …Xenia, Centorian, not on this thread so much, you all provide so much to this community… if i missed anyone it is due to my awareness this comment is far beyond a comment stage
i realize none of you needed my amazing POV, but i want you all to realize how incredible of a venue/milieu you’ve created. Where you can fight if you want to, absolutely disagree, explore and consider very different thoughts and still know you are heard and respected enough that your POV can and will be challenged.
Thank You it was very important for me to find you at this point in my life.
oh, one more thing…
#26 Caleb you are a TROLL if you are functionally illiterate and/or are disabled w receptive aphasia, it is a loss to you that you can only copy talking points from your favorite ODM blog; for if you honestly read what is being said here you would have possibly found information you need to be who you claim yourself.
Would this be proof:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/leonardsweetquotes.html
Welcome Na’amah. Please don’t feel like you need to apologize for coming here with a cyber secret identity., it’s totally okay. Many of us choose to use alternate names to protective the innocent and guilty around us, just like you, but other choose to use our names as an expression of our sense of humor or personality. Either way, we are glad you are here.
Rob,
The site you linked says: “Follow Leonard Sweet at your own risk, the risk of your soul!”
From what I have read, Sweet did ask us to follow him, He asked us to follow Jesus.
This looks to me again like a series of quotes (mostly quite old from what I gather) taken out of context and commented on. Sweet was asked frankly about many of these positions, and he gave very clear and open answers. It’s easy to twist people’s words, draw your own conclusions, and claim that everything they have ever written/said, even many years ago, means exactly what you say it does and represents what they current say/believe/teach. It’s easy to do, and not very honest, and can end up smearing the name of a good person.
I learned a while back to test the fruit. When I read something like that link, I am encouraged to fear. When I read what I have recently read by Sweet, and listen to what he shared in the video recently linked here, I was encouraged to offer grace to others, and to put Jesus at the center.
correction “did ask” should have read “did not ask”
3 letters make a big difference in the sentence
Na’amah said, “Believe you risk yourself in your openess in a willingness to pursue truth, i hope you are more self protective away from this forum”
Well, I do pack a 45 auto… 🙂 8)
….and welcome to the PP!
Darn it Rob…don’t make me deconstruct Simpson’s fallacious thesis regarding Len Sweet and the quotes he clearly doesn’t understand.
I wanted to get to bed soon…
Ron,
That book is poorly written and not very helpful in my opinion.
Sweet himself has said it was the first book of a young philosopher and he would write it differently today.
The man has given a clear statement that addresses these concerns and I’m satisfied that he’s orthodox.
Frankly I could take almost any book and by cutting and pasting make the author look bad.
Jesus has promised to care for my soul and if I get too far off the path He’ll come and get me…He’ll do the same for all His kids…
Isaiah…my cybername does include some of my own sense of humor as well. Thank you for your welcome.
And Believe (aka Alex) i hope you are well armed! and thank you for your welcome as well
Na’amh
Welcome to the PP and don’t worry about not using your name. Alot of people, myself included, don’t use our names. It’s kinda more fun that way actually.
As for Dread, we’re friends off blog too, so it was pretty easy for him to interpret what I was saying. 😉
I have no idea what London is talking about…
That’s par for the course
Oh That LONDON….sure I know that one well… great soul
London & Dread LOLOL probably what allows you two to be friends in real space huh?
Na’amah, i knew i was up late (for me) for some reason – thank you for finding me worth a mention in that great, insight-filled list and welcome – look forward to more of your posts
folks are patient with me here … i don’t try to instruct (i’d take more time to think things out if i did) … and i love it when i’m not clear and someone steps up to correct or elaborate … don’t love it so much at those rare times that i am clear – IMNSHO – and someone steps up to correct me 🙂 but, if the correction is correct? then it’s all good
Em glad you are up late
and just in your comments you provide (i guess unintentionally) instruction and guidance and i have to say your humour is present pretty regularly
when you do finally get to go off to ZZZland goodnight 🙂