God Told Them To Do It…

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52 Responses

  1. Em says:

    i doubt that i will like or agree with the comments that this post generates…
    i don’t know if i’d like any of these folk personally if i knew them… i do know the mindset of these old time independent ranchers – this whole thing was fomented by a bureaucratic, cowardly government who fear them – the two ranchers, an honorable father and son, who are now in jail for 7 years(?) were falsely accused of intentionally setting fire to government land – the fire they set was a standard practice, set on their own land and it did get away from them and spread onto a few acres of government land which they immediately and successfully set to put out – the worst they should have received as punishment would have been a fine…
    personally, i think we’d be better served to leave God out of this one… it isn’t His fight i don’t think

  2. Babylon's Dread says:

    If you want to make enemies quickly, denounce these guys to your friends. I had no idea until this last year how happily people will hate you over these kind of issues. I once considered them fringe matters. Now they are front and center. Gay marriage took foothold. This stuff can as well.

  3. Babylon's Dread says:

    Apparently this is Mormon extremism.

  4. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Follow the rules or change the rules – don’t lock yourself up with guns and make threats.
    You become a nuisance and need to be handled by the authorities.

    Can you think of a single similar issue that if happening at your next door neighbor’s house that you would put up with for more than 24 hrs before demanding that the local authorities take care of it?

  5. Michael says:

    Let Oregonians take care of Oregon.
    The only wall I’ve ever been in favor of is on the Oregon border…

  6. Jean says:

    It’s all part of elements in this country which want to destroy it by teaching that government, police and institutions are evil. They teach vigilante justice and if you don’t like a law, then don’t obey it. It is the devil’s handiwork, which sows chaos and disorder in God’s good creation. If you don’t honor your fathers, then you are rebelling against God.

    Choose who you will worship… As for me and my family, I will worship the God who created the heavens and the earth, who works for his children’s good through the government he has given us.

  7. Em says:

    i can’t think of how a SIMILAR issue could take place at my next door neighbor’s… well, actually, yes i can
    our properties back up to government land… and we’re sure well acquainted with wildfires… thanks to careless, conflicting and maybe ignorant government bureaucracies those fires have destroyed some prime wilderness hiking back country, destroyed a multi-million dollar government salmon recovery study, made life impossible for two summers now … i think i’d be on the side of the simple-minded guy with the rifle in his lap – even tho a futile pursuit

  8. Em says:

    this promises to be a very strange comment thread … 🙂

  9. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, Why not vote for new land commissioners who support your position (or officials who appoint the land commissioners) instead of causing a ruckus?

  10. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Does anyone support all these folks who oppose eminent domain when it involves their home, so they hole up with guns and make threats?
    Same thing – they are idiots and need to be removed from the gene pool. 😉

  11. Em says:

    Jean, you are just plain, flat out wrong when you say, “It’s all part of elements in this country which want to destroy it by teaching that government, police and institutions are evil.” we need to be more discerning in accepting news coverage, i think

    but this is a very strange sequence of events and will probably elect Trump… worth a ponder

  12. Em says:

    we don’t have much political clout over here, MLD, it’s the liberal west side of the Cascades that rule the state … i’m not against liberals, but these liberals are knee-jerk mindless ones … the gene pool IS definitely corrupted 🙂 come soon, Lord Jesus

  13. Jean says:

    “we don’t have much political clout over here, MLD, it’s the liberal west side of the Cascades that rule the state”

    Em’s comment gets at the heart of the matter. One side doesn’t like the lawful will of the electorate in power. So, instead of working through the system to persuade and change minds, but live by the will of the people, they decide the laws are not applicable to them.

    That is anarchy.

  14. Michael says:


    It’s more complex than that.

    The federal government is squeezing ranchers in the West hard…and out here we don’t take kindly to being squeezed from the outside.

    There are legitimate issues at play…this is just a poor way to address them.

    There is also a very clear split in our states between urban liberals and rural conservatives…and it’s getting to be a tinder box.

  15. Cash says:

    I agree with MLD- “Follow the rules or change the rules.” But you don’t go seizing federal property at gunpoint and expect the authorities not to react. C’mon folks. Is this really that complicated?

  16. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael – yet in all other matters you seem to stand with the urban liberals and put the knock on the constituents of the red “fly over” states and pretty much denounce them as fools.

  17. Josh the Baptist says:

    I keep thinking that if these guys were a different race or religion we’d be searching their dental records now to identify the charred remains.

  18. Michael says:


    I rarely speak to anything political except immigration.
    I loathe both parties.

    However, I have come to a firm conviction that the way we speak to each other is going to get a bunch of us killed and the problems will be unresolved.

    My responsibility as someone with platform is to speak responsibly and in a way that promotes discussion, not anger.

    I have not always done so in the past and I’m repenting.

  19. Em says:

    follow the rules is good advice… i don’t know where to direct to get facts on any of this – it is our government that has not been following the rules in this matter… but follow the rules is as simple minded a solution as is sitting in the path of a bureaucrat with a gun in your lap

    this is the way things have been playing out here in the backward west:

    summer ’14 we had a good example of rule following… local folk north of us watched a wildfire start up on the hill (county land) above their town – plenty of firefighting assets were staged on the road below it… when they ran over to ask what the hold up was, they were told that they couldn’t touch the fire until they got the go ahead, the county couldn’t give them the go ahead until the the state gave the county the go ahead and the state wouldn’t give the go ahead until the word came down from the BLM or some Federal agency or other… the towns people replied, “it’s not out of hand, yet; we’ll go up there and put it out….” the government, while to their credit were frantically on the phone trying to get the go ahead, told the towns people, that they’d have to arrest them, if they went up there… the town burned and most were uninsured, modest, little, unimportant homes of modest, little, unimportant people, i guess…
    yes, this really happened
    so, obey the laws is good, but very simple-minded advice – as i see it

  20. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “I keep thinking that if these guys were a different race or religion we’d be searching their dental records now to identify the charred remains.”

    LOL – how true. 🙂

  21. Cash says:

    In 1859 John Brown, an abolitionist, tried to seize a federal armory in Virginia. The insurrection was put down by federal authorities and Brown was hanged. Most historians agree that this event was key in the lead up to secession and ultimately the Civil War.
    My point is that tensions in our country are white hot right now and the rhetoric on both sides will, as Michael says, “get a bunch of us killed.” We would do well to remember John Brown, and try to cool the rising tensions instead of stoking the flames.

  22. Jimbo says:

    #6 — what Jean said.

    I’m constantly amazed at how evangelical righties rationalize their anti-law, radical individualism and detestation of institutions and government.

    Judges 17:6 personified —

    “In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.”

  23. Em says:

    Cash, John Brown was just one of many such militias that formed before the Civil War … the war didn’t end with Lee’s surrender…

    “By 1865 the war began to wind down. General Robert E. Lee surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia on April 9th of that year. President Davis of the Confederacy was captured on May 10th and held prisoner for two years. However, there were bands of fighters, militias of States and other special forces fighting the Union under their own banners and the surrenders continued in a bit of chaos and disorganization. Not until August 20, 1866 was President Andrew Johnson able to sign the Proclamation:
    “P eace, Order, Tranquility, and Civil Authority Now Exists in and Throughout the Whole of the United States of America.”

    i don’t think we have an infrastructure today that would allow a similar insurrection and we’ll soon be in a blatant police state that would make Hitler look like an amateur – sobering thot – just obey the rules and vote your conscience is the advice here? okay

  24. Jean says:

    “we’ll soon be in a blatant police state that would make Hitler look like an amateur”

    More right wing hooey. I live in a state with a GOP governor and State Senate run by the GOP. There is no police state. In many areas of the country it is the police that are under siege. If personal insecurity is growing, it is because of the proliferation of mass shootings in this country, which are not being carried out by the State. What we have is less law and order, not too much.

  25. Em says:

    Jean, i am sorry that i don’t express myself clearly enough – i am glad that you and MLD comment on what i say, otherwise, i’d never know how completely misread what my comments are…

    i was responding to Cash’s comment on the danger of forming militias

    what happened during the 1800s would not have the same outcome today – a serious outbreak of civil disobedience will be dealt with as we have seen last night and there have been other instances post Civil War – follow the rules wherever they take us

    the police, the armed forces of the United States are good men in trying times… quit trying to make this issue about them… the folks, however wrong, protesting down in Oregon respect law and order and understand it – even better than you do, i’d guess – dunno

  26. Cash says:


    “the folks, however wrong, protesting down in Oregon respect law and order and understand it.” If these men respected law and order, they would obey the law. But they are breaking the law and using terroristic threats to do it. That is not respecting law and order. As someone mentioned before, that is anarchy.

  27. Em says:

    no, Cash, i disagree, what these men are protesting is their government breaking the laws of the land … they respect law and order no matter how useless and counterproductive – dangerous, even – the rest of the nation finds them to be

  28. Cash says:


    Who is in authority if the federal government disobeys the laws? The court system! These men should’ve sued in federal court if they felt the government was breaking laws and treating them unfairly. If they really respected law and order, this is what they would’ve done. We have a Constitution with checks and balances on government and the courts are established for this very reason. You continually make the federal government the big bully bad guy but the federal government is established by the Constitution and there are legal and civil ways to fight the government. I assure you, these men do not respect law and order.

  29. Em says:

    Cash, do you know the back story on this? it was a protest against the jailing of 2 ranchers who were tried, sentenced, served their sentences and then another judge stepped in and said that they didn’t serve enough time for allowing their fire to reach Federal land and he re-sentenced them (7 or 10 years in jail, not certain on this) – the men gave themselves up and are in jail right now… all the excitement there in Harney County now was fomented by the above… no one in their right mind could affirm that the 2 ranchers were treated with any kind of respect or even judicial impartiality… forget about whether the protesters are dangerous, disrespectful loose canons and give some serious thought to what is happening in our government today
    again – respect for the police and other low level law enforcement people is not the issue

    BTW – why even bother with these occupiers of the Malhuer Wild Bird Flyway Reserve, it’s way out in the middle of no man’s land and no place to spend the winter anyway – turn the electricity off, barricade the road and wait them out – if a bunch of reporters want to stand out there in the wet and the cold looking for some action, don’t give them any… one thing seems clear to me… somebody, somewhere in the government (not the local police) want this publicity and it wouldn’t surprise me at all to learn that these protesters have been lured in with the hope of confrontation – God rest the soul of the old coot they just killed

  30. filbertz says:

    This ‘occupation’ has been complicated from the outset. Oregon’s governor did nothing except 1) let local law enforcement handle it 2) appeal to the Fed’s to but an end to it. She is the face and product of the “Urban Liberal” mindset, folks who want their beef grass-fed, organic, and free-range without allocating enough land for cattle to range freely to graze on the grass. They drive their Prius to Home Depot to buy lumber imported from Canada in a state with more acres of trees than people, but no will to cut any of it and provide living-wage jobs. They insist on raising the minimum wage without relaxing the excruciating tax burden on small business. Communication is a starting point, but that includes the willingness to listen.

  31. Cash says:

    But Em,

    I return to the Constitution as the supreme law of our land. These men who are in prison have the right to appeal to a higher court. If they are rejected, then that’s the way the system works. You may deem it unfair, and perhaps in this case it is unfair, but we have laws and everyone has to obey them or be punished. It’s just the way the system works. As was said earlier, if you don’t like the system you can change it through the electoral process or through a Constitutional amendment. But taking up arms against the duly elected government is usurping the authorities and cannot be tolerated.

  32. Em says:

    to tell the truth, Cash, if taking up arms would restore rational sound government (all 3 branches) i’d join them …

    but, i think your theory is as things should be, further, as a Christian, i am bound to respect the government i live under, no matter how corrupted…

    perhaps, folks like you are smart enough to put the Constitution as written back in charge of this nation as this has been the first time in history (if there are others i was asleep in class) that the common man has had protection from the corruption that greed fosters in the human race… i hope and pray those who think like you can do that – it could happen – maybe Bernie can do it? … or one of the other guys?

    link to some of the facts that started all this … IF it links… their sentences aren’t as long as i thought…


  33. Erunner says:

    I appreciate all of the comments on this topic as they help me to understand the dynamics involved and varying viewpoints.

    For maybe a year or more (as the election and candidates were introduced) I fear that our nation is headed for serious civil strife. I have never seen such polarization in our country and I think gaps will continue to widen.

    No matter who is elected president I believe extremists on either side might decide to bring about anarchy in an effort to implement their views.

    No candidate will be able to solve the ills of this country. We have lost our way.

    We rightfully are concerned about terrorist activity but our nation seems to be a powder keg with a very short fuse.

    This nation needs revival and I pray it doesn’t take a national calamity to start one.

  34. Em says:

    wise words, Erunner… i don’t think however that the government will let things get out of hand… we will see the hammer come down if they decide that the unrest can’t be finessed away in just these small demonstrations and skirmishes… – dunno
    do we have the courage to pray for a revival even if it takes a calamity to start one?

  35. Erunner says:

    Em, what concerns me is if something does happen what it might take for our government to squelch it.

    I read about the horrors around the world taking place on a regular basis and what believers have and are enduring and I realize how fortunate we are that these things haven’t befallen us.

    “do we have the courage to pray for a revival even if it takes a calamity to start one?”

    I don’t know but I do realize we need revival on a national basis and that begins in the church and each of us individually. Hopefully we can follow the examples of those who are serving God with no agenda or pride. Thank God for them.

  36. Cash says:


    Unless I’m misreading or misunderstanding your post, it seems to be a bit snarky. I hope we can continue constructive dialogue without resorting to that.

  37. Em says:

    Cash, maybe i was snarky – but it was a mild snark coming from discouragement over the situation as i see it … kind of a “okay, have at it, if you think you can do it better” 🙂

    i do truly think your view is as things should be, even if i don’t see them as being so today – please don’t feel disrespected, i apologize for offending you

  38. Cash says:


    It’s obvious that you are passionate about your views and that is a good thing. You didn’t offend me, I just wanted to understand better where you were coming from.

  39. Alan says:

    Jimbo (#22), seriously?? That’s your comment? As Em has given examples of, our entire govt is corrupt to the core. Every single branch. The current POTUS and the previous one simply threw the Constitution out the window. We’re past the point of no return on our path to complete totalitarian govt. I’m glad to see that you support this endeavor.

  40. Alan says:

    Folks, forget everything else and chew on the fact (as Em pointed out) that 2 men served SEVEN years in jail for the high crime of allowing the controlled burn on their own land to venture a foot or two out onto “Federal” land. Where is the justice in that?

  41. Michael says:

    A bunch of Mormon extremists come into my state, make a hell of a mess, then finish out their term here sitting around the campfire smoking weed and drinking beer.

    We didn’t ask them to come and we’ve asked them to leave since the beginning.

    This isn’t how you solve problems.

    This is a hell of lot more complex than has been offered.

  42. Em says:

    Harney County and its surrounds have grazed cattle for about 150 years without harming the environment one bit… the Malhuer is the result of good stewardship by the very ranchers that our government is now declaring a hazard to the environment – did the ranchers have a good thing? yes – was it at the pleasure of the Federal Government? yes… the real question for the us is do we want this to change? to disappear?
    evidently, as i read this thread we do – i hope we know what we’re doing…

    while i admit to seldom having had the patience to sit thru it, for some reason i am reminded of an old TV show that my children loved: “Little House on the Prairie”… it’s the Ingall’s descendants today that can’t find their place, or don’t want to – these cattle ranchers descend from the 1800s – they’ve survived by being tough and territorial and cooperating with a government that wanted them there raising our (ahem) beef… and lamb

    Perhaps there is no place for a settler or a cowboy in today’s economy. Perhaps, there is no place for Ma and Pa Ingalls in our world – but shoot them? call them terrorists? righteously raise the eminent domain banner? these are the views that tell me that i don’t like where our world is today … – so who will supply good, relative affordable meat now? hmmm… no worries – sounds like a corporate opportunity to me

  43. Michael says:

    When you take over a federal building with weapons and explosives, you’re a terrorist.
    When you charge a police officer while reaching for a gun, you’re going to die.

    There are very reasonable ways to raise awareness and change laws…this wasn’t one of them.

  44. Jean says:

    This local article provides the point of view of the U.S. Attorney involved in the Hammond case. It doesn’t sound like the Bundy (and his followers’) spin.


  45. Em says:

    #41- did the sheriff call in the Feds? i feel badly for him as the situation WAS messy at best – it isn’t this push-back against militias that has me discouraged, it is the fact that the Federal Government is determined to eliminate every vestige of independence and personal accountability… just how it seems to this city girl as i sit up here in the mountains among some of the last of the salt of the earth folk

  46. Michael says:

    They were trespassing on federal land in a federal facility.
    The feds didn’t have to be called, it’s their job to deal with it.

    Eastern Oregonians can handle their business…they don’t need help from Mormon nutbars.

  47. Em says:

    yes, i see your point, Michael… they were occupying Federal property… and yes, i agree that these fellas with their rag tag militia were breaking the law… i’m not too happy with how the Feds have handled it, though
    BUT for me this Mormon drama is a side issue

    do we know and approve of how the government is handling our lands now – excuse me, i guess it is their land – to do with as they choose… however, i do hope that Eastern Oregon can bring some sense into land management again

  48. Michael says:


    There are real issues with how the government is managing not just range land, but forest land.

    These need to be seriously and soberly discussed and changes made.

    I’m a native Oregonian…fil spoke for most of us up in this thread.

    I was unhappy with how the Feds handled it too…they should have gone in after the first hour and cleaned house.

    The last thing we need in this state is a bunch of apocalyptic conspiracy loons explaining what needs to happen.

  49. Em says:

    Eastern Oregon is unique and absolutely beautiful – i kind of wish it had stayed off of the national radar and no human being lived there at all, but then… i’d like to live there myself 🙂

  50. Michael says:

    It’s all over…they got the last of the loons out.

    Now the state of Oregon has to clean up the mess…

    Eastern Oregon is a great place to visit, then go home to western Oregon.
    Too cold…

  51. Em says:

    that describes where i live now – too cold or too hot or too wet, but the wheat and the apples and the cherries love it, as do the folk growing them and getting pretty “comfortably well-off” – as we used to say 🙂

    praying for a peaceful evening for all of us who visit Michael’s great web-site… sounds like it’s needed

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