Jean’s Gospel: Is God Angry?

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72 Responses

  1. Babylon's Dread says:

    An atonement post that could indeed find the anger …

    I find today that the church is angry at the depiction of God as angry…

    Many books on atonement that caricature the idea of appeasing God’s anger have emerged

  2. Michael says:

    I think this is an important word for many.
    Theodicy is difficult…but I agree that the cross is the only answer.

  3. Jean says:

    I think the Church’s proclamation of the Son of God hanging on a cross for the sins of the world is a very strong depiction of an angry God. But it also depicts the love that God has for us.

  4. Siegfried says:

    His Righteous anger is loving anger. His wrath is justified by his love for us

  5. Jean says:

    “His Righteous anger is loving anger. His wrath is justified by his love for us”

    Siegfried,

    As a Christian, Is Christ’s atonement for your sins lacking anything? In other words, is He your 100% mediator and advocate before the Father, or did he leave you in some percentage naked before the Father to fend for yourself?

  6. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am just glad that his anger and wrath was not aimed at me – Jesus was the target.

  7. Siegfried says:

    MLD – Me too

    Jean, I feel like you are asking leading questions. Why not not just state your position? I might agree…

  8. Jean says:

    Siegfried,
    I wasn’t sure what point you were making. My position is in the article. But to clarify, Jesus took the wrath and judgment I deserved, and gave me His name and adoption as a child of God the Father. I have nothing to fear from my Father.

  9. Siegfried says:

    True. God is the God of the old and new testaments. We are commanded to fear Him, not man.
    I felt as though your article was making the point that God does not get angry. Just a feeling.

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

  10. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    But he has already satisfied that wrath on the cross. There is no more wrath.

  11. Siegfried says:

    That was written after the cross, and in the present tense.

  12. Josh the Baptist says:

    God’s wrath in Revelation 16 is still future.

  13. Truth Lover says:

    “God is angry with the wicked everyday” He still has anger but not towards His children. Christ absorbed our wrath for us. But not so the wicked who have not placed their faith in Christ.

    With all the talk of God just being love, we have an unbalanced view of God. God is HOLY, HOLY, HOLY and therefore hates anything that is NOT holy. His holiness and wrath go hand in hand. If we had a better view of His wrath towards sin, we would live differently.

  14. Jean says:

    Siegried and Josh,

    Let me put it this way, (1) if you are in Christ, there is no condemnation (i.e., now wrath now or to come, (2) at the cross the world was judged, Christ took the punishment, and the end times started. God vindicated Christ and raised him from the dead. By faith (and signified in baptism) we are crucified with Christ and raised with him in the new creation. In the flesh we are in the old age; by faith we are new creations in the world to come.

    Everything in the old age has been judged. The wages of sin is death. And when Christ returns, there will be a final judgment (but for Christians, we have already been justified, and that will be confirmed).

    Does that make sense?

  15. Siegfried says:

    Now, but not yet.

    Paul describes it as present. John as future. Just like we have redemption now, but it is not yet fulfilled in totale. Just as with messianic prophecies in OT are often given in past tense.

  16. Siegfried says:

    Truth Lover and Jean,

    Well, yeeaah, geez, … 😉 That’s what I meant to say.

  17. Jean says:

    “With all the talk of God just being love, we have an unbalanced view of God. God is HOLY, HOLY, HOLY and therefore hates anything that is NOT holy. His holiness and wrath go hand in hand. If we had a better view of His wrath towards sin, we would live differently.”

    I will share with you how I process this. God is certainly holy, but He is also the creator of this earth and of all people, and as its creator he did not step away from our rebellion, but took responsibility out of his love for us to send us a Redeemer.

    “For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

    God sent His only begotten Son for us, because we are incapable and literally unwilling to honor God on our own. When I think of God’s wrath post Easter, I think it is when people refuse His unconditional grace and mercy.

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    God has already reconciled himself to us – 2 Cor 5:19 = “19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.”

    If he is not counting people’s sin against them / us (this would be all people) why would there still be wrath?

  19. Jeffrey Pautz says:

    The problem of Christian suffering is a big topic. To oversimply, I would say:

    We Christians rightly believe that God is: Good, strong, and loving. It’s Biblical. But in the midst of suffering, when trying to make sense of suffering, it is easy to pick two of the three and deny one.

    Such as:
    God is good and strong – but He doesn’t love me. This is why I suffer.
    God is good and loving – but He is not strong enough to protect me. This is why I suffer.
    God is strong and loving – but He is not good. This is why I suffer.

    They make sense, but each is not Biblical.

    Rather:
    The Father loves me like this He sent His Son for me. John 3
    The Son’s strength for me is that He lays down His life for me. John 10
    The Holy Spirit is good to me for He comforts me with God’s goodness. John 14:26

    Not as rational but Biblical and comforting in the midst of suffering. Job’s friends were wrong. And we are saved from God’s wrath by grace through faith in Christ. The tragedies we experience or hear about are from God’s wrath but for us…let us repent and turn to God for He is good, strong, and loves you eternally in Christ.

    Big topic. Short answer. Thanks Jean.

  20. John 20:29 says:

    an angry God? doesn’t that make Him sound unbalanced? but is He?
    oh i think we better believe He is angry about something…

    still, when we got ourselves kicked out of the garden (i think that event gives us a hint as to who He’s angry with), He wasn’t surprised, it didn’t make Him mad, but it did begin a long, long drama and so full of sorrows that it must be very important in His plan – if you’re not a Believer then you’re most vulnerable, just going on the tide toward the end of the drama – while it may have its moments, this isn’t Paradise down here anymore…
    that said, no disaster ever makes God happy, does it?

    i think that all of God’s attributes are always perfect and perfectly in balance, always in agreement and no one aspect of His character ever overpowers the others – He is an absolute – His holiness should both terrify and comfort us – every dealing He has with a man and with mankind is always perfect…

    just sayin … pontificating … and thinking… again

  21. Siegfried says:

    John 20:29

    Psalm 23 is a good example of fear and comfort in Him

  22. Josh the Baptist says:

    Jean at 14 – Well said. Totally agree.

    My comment about future wrath was in response to MLD.

  23. Victor says:

    I think Jesus’ lesson can be summed up in what He also said, “he who loves his life shall lose it.”

    I was reading something yesterday, and I’ve seen it touched upon in this thread, something like that if I were to believe certain things about God, it would make me question the character of the God I worship.

    Everybody dies (in the flesh). I think trying to discern that which is beyond our fleshly minds to comprehend. His ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. Who are we to presume to judge God?

    The imperfect analog, but an analog nonetheless) in our world is a parent-child relationship. Who are my 4 and 7 year old children to question me about not giving them candy for dinner? Where were they when I bought the home, and brought the food (and candy)? IMO, one possible starting point regarding Theodicy is to consider our familial relationships on Earth.

    As for wrath… isn’t it possible for believers to grieve the Spirit? Why did believers who didn’t discern the body and blood of Christ correctly get sick and fall asleep?

  24. Jean says:

    Hi Josh. Thank you.

    Hi Pastor Jeff. Great counsel at #19.

  25. Jean says:

    Victor,

    Looking for models of God’s love, I look at Jesus first, then the Prodigal, then the Good Samaritan, the master of the unforgiving servant, the master of the vineyard, etc. All great stuff. Of course comment #19 is succinct and well said.

  26. Jean says:

    “I was reading something yesterday, and I’ve seen it touched upon in this thread, something like that if I were to believe certain things about God, it would make me question the character of the God I worship.”

    This is why Christianity was distinctive during the ante Nicene period, from among the numerous religions of that period, as a people of the book and a creedal religion. If salvation is a gift apprehended by faith alone, then your doctrine of who God is is very important.

  27. John 20:29 says:

    Jean’s post today is a good reminder to me that our pastors are so focused on leading us to inward examination, self absorbed thinking…

    i know people are all different, but the more we see of Christ and the Triune God, the more we’ll appreciate what we have and what we are in Christ… and so the less we’ll fear and waver in our Faith as we walk thru this world…
    not just knowing those wonderful creeds, but seeing God as reality in them
    forgive the lame philosophizing again, but surely the still waters of Psalm 23 are not stagnant waters, but living water 🙂

  28. Truth Lover says:

    I would love it if someone would write a thread on all the verses where it states what God hates. I think it would be very insightful. Because we need to understand God better in light of what He hates and what angers Him. But we Americans like to always keep everything “happy and positive”, which drives me crazy, and don’t usually like to talk about such things. The Church truly does have such a pitiful view of God these days and we need to be slapped in the face, so to speak, with some sobering truth that will radically shift our thinking. I’m sad to not see very many comments on this subject, which in itself, is very telling.

  29. Disillusioned says:

    I think Em nails it – too much (in my opinion) focus on self. One thing my son can’t get past was the constant self-flagellation at CC. Yes, we’re worms, yes my sin put Christ on the cross, yes I don’t deserve to live, etc etc etc
    The common thread there was I, I, I…

    So for me, Truth Lover, the verses on God’s wrath are already carved on my heart. And there were many times where that’s all I could think about, to the exclusion of grace and mercy and love.

  30. Jean says:

    Disillusimoned, You’ve hit the nail on the head for many people. To add to your comment:

    “But we must learn that forgiveness of sins, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are given to us freely, simply by believing what we hear preached, despite our horrible sins. We must not think about the greatness of what is given, nor about how unworthy we are of it (for if we did that, we would be terrified); rather, we must think how it pleases God to give us this unutterable gift freely [citation omitted]. If he wants to give it, I must not consider my own sin and unworthiness but only his fatherly goodwill toward me; I must receive this great gift with joy and gladness and be thankful.

    Here again, foolish reason is offended and says, “This makes grace look contemptible, and people will be complacent, idle, and dissolute, so that they do no good at all. So it is not a good idea to preach this doctrine; it cannot be true. People must be urged to labor and to exercise themselves for righteousness, and then they will obtain this gift.” This is the very same thing the Pelagians said in the past. But listen to what Paul says in this passage: You have received the Holy Spirit not by your own labor, but by believing what you heard. Martha was busy and could hardly stand her sister Mary’s listening to Jesus; but listen to what Christ says: “Martha, Martha, you are worried and upset about many things, but only one thing one is needed. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her” [citation omitted]. We become Christians, therefore, not by working but by listening; therefore, those who want to exercise themselves for righteousness must first exercise themselves in listening to the Gospel. When they have heard and received the Gospel, they should give thanks to God gladly, and then they can exercise themselves in those good works that are commanded in the law, so that the law and works may follow belief in what is heard. Thus they may quietly walk in the light—that is, follow Christ—and boldly choose and do works, not hypocritically, but doing things that they know please God and are commanded by him.”

    – Martin Luther, Commentary on Gal 3:2

  31. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Truth Lover,
    If you want to hear what God hates, go to your local evangelical / purpose driven church where the message is designed to keep Christians living under the law instead of living in grace. The evangelical / purpose driven message is totally void of “come to me and I will give you rest.”

    What does God hate?? Christians. The difference is so apparent as I watch folks come into our church as recovering evangelicals, and jonesing in the pews for personal application, which does not come in the Lutheran liturgy.

  32. Michael says:

    I think any list of what God hates has to start with brussel sprouts.

  33. Michael says:

    “I would love it if someone would write a thread on all the verses where it states what God hates. I think it would be very insightful. Because we need to understand God better in light of what He hates and what angers Him.”

    You’re on the wrong blog for something like that.
    We reject your idea that we need to understand God in terms of what angers Him…we understand God through the cross where He poured out His wrath on Christ for us.

  34. dusty says:

    Too funny Michael!

  35. Siggy the Terrible says:

    33
    Michael might that be kind of missing the forest for the trees? God is angered by spiritual harlotry, so Christ took the wrath of his anger for us. His righteous anger is not mutually exclusive from his righteousness.

  36. Truth Lover says:

    MLD, It’s not only the Lutheran church that teaches the Gospel correctly so take it down a notch. I do not need to find a church and especially a Lutheran church if they all come across as proud. Our church is a Gospel centered church, thank you very much.

    Michael, I am shocked at your conclusion about wanting to understand God more when it comes to His nature. We have a very soft view of God today and a soft view of sin. Wanting to understand what God hates is called studying the Bible. To refuse to look at what scripture says about God no matter how “unpleasant” it may be for some, just baffles me. Yes, we stand and walk in grace but that doesn’t mean to the exclusion of the fear of God. Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age,…”

  37. Michael says:

    Truth Lover,

    Studying God means to study Christ who is “the image of the invisible God.
    Christ revealed God to us through the Incarnation and the Cross…and his hate was subsumed in the death of Christ for all who believe.

    The problem with all your “gotcha” verses is that we are all guilty of every one of them…so I’ll understand Christ as the one who forgave all my guilt and shame and proclaim His grace and forgiveness at the Lord’s table every Sunday to my congregation.

  38. dusty says:

    Well said Michael!

  39. Michael says:

    Thanks Duster…getting ready to preach tomorrow…

  40. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Truth Lover,
    Believe me, you do need to hear a different message. Yes, other churches do preach the gospel, but they do not know how to properly distinguish between law and gospel.
    Anyone who advocates preaching God’s anger and wrath to the children of Christ does not understand the gospel message.

  41. dusty says:

    Michael, wish i could be there

  42. Michael says:

    Dusty, I think you’d be blessed and we would be blessed to have you.

  43. dusty says:

    I will be with you in prayer. Love your little sis

  44. Michael says:

    Love you too, sis.

  45. John 20:29 says:

    then again perhaps some do need a good understanding of the absolute holiness of God in order to appreciate the gospel message… wrath, anger, hate – those words show up hundreds of time in the Bible and can be used as hammers, but none of them lead to an appreciation of God…

    i’m one of those people who loves to drive or take road trips, but you lift the hood on that car when the engine is running and it scares me, not because i think it will attack me, but because the power of the thing in action where i can see it, hear it and maybe even feel it (depending on the vehicle)… kind of overwhelms me…

    just thinking on everyone’s thoughts here with gratitude for turning me to think on such things

    i pray that we could all have a sense of the omnipotent, immutable power of God along with an appreciation for Him – for the miracle that is grace, the unspeakable cost of our redemption: such love, but a love that never compromised His holiness… i think obedience is our gift to Him, but our justification is not in anything we can do… if we try to repay Him, we are like the poor little cat, who brings the gift of a dead mouse to the person who feeds it…
    He never intends that we be anxious in our relationship to Him – except …
    maybe anxious to learn more? … dunno

  46. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    This is not a refutation of Em’s comment, but a launching pad for my comment. Em mentions understanding the absolute holiness of God – others bring up the absolute sovereignty of God. Those do nothing for me as they both point to God can squash me like a bug – what use do I have for that in my life? When I think of the omnipotent, immutable power of God all I can see is all of that hanging on the cross.
    The characteristic of God that I find the most powerful and relevant to me is God’s mercy.

    If someone from my class came to me and suggested that I teach about all that God hates I would have a 2 part response.
    1.) If you want it taught for some theological purpose I would say no – it has no relevance to our current standing with God.
    2.) If you want it as an academic pursuit – well, perhaps I would consider it.

  47. ” i think obedience is our gift to Him”
    Since none of us have been obedient (unless you have reached sinless perfection) – then none of us have delivered a gift to God yet.

  48. Truth Lover says:

    MLD #40
    I’m not advocating we “preach” God’s wrath and what He hates as the normative church sermon. Please don’t twist my intent. I just wanted to discuss it here. It could have been an insightful discussion. And please stop judging me as to what I understand or not. It’s very condescending and unspiritual.

    Michael, #37
    I still think knowing God in all of His attributes is extremely important. We don’t preach the Gospel to the neglect of teaching the rest of the Bible. It’s all connected. AS A PASTOR YOU KNOW THIS! Knowing the holiness of God, His wrath towards sin is the important black back drop we need to more fully appreciate His grace. We need to learn the whole counsel of God, not pick and choose what feels good to us. Some preach grace to the total neglect of the rest of the Bible; which will give us a shallow definition of grace. All of God’s Word is inspired. We need to know it all to fully appreciate grace and the cross.
    2 Tim. 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.”

    Yes, I know you know this verse. Question: Do you teach through the Old Testament? Do you exclude any New Testament books?

  49. Michael says:

    Truth Lover,

    I teach the OT as it’s interpreted in the New.
    Jesus said if you’ve seen Him, you’ve seen God.
    Thus, He’s what I want to learn of.

    The whole counsel of Scripture doesn’t mean you teach the whole book verse by verse…it means that you understand the whole Bible points to Jesus as the fulfillment of all that was written…

  50. Siggy the Terrible says:

    His wrath belongs here:

    I Tim I:viii But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted…

    His Grace, love, forgiveness here:
    …13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

    Am I close?

    This I tell you brother/
    You can’t have one without the other!

    Michael,
    Is Jesus on every page? I’ve heard that often.

  51. Siggy the Terrible says:

    MLD,
    Perhaps there are so many beautiful birds crowding the mustard plant that the pastor find it necessary to preach to the unrepentant within the church, swelling up the body. Not every CC sermon I heard was fire and brimstone.

    Michael,

    Even Jesus explained the Gospel beginning with Moses and going through all the prophets on the road to Emmaus. Verse by verse? I dont know. Seeing as how he taught to Jewish people generally who were already verse by verse instructed as kids, I doubt it.

  52. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I always have trouble with those who are still seeking God on Mt Sinai – with all of the fire and lightening bolts.

    Do some not realize that today we find God on Mt Calvary hanging on the cross and the resurrected Christ on Mt Zion which is the Church?

    Some need a new map. 😉

  53. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Siggy,
    Again a major difference as you think the law is preached only to the unrepentant. My pastor preaches law to all, not just the unrepentant in the congregation. I am 100% sinner at the same time as being 100% justified. My old man is at constant battle with my new.

    My old man can hear only law and cannot hear or comprehend the gospel. My new man is just the opposite and can hear only gospel – so the pastor must ‘rightly divide’ the word of God – which is what the passage means – to properly distinguish between those 2 words God speaks – law & gospel.

  54. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    On last thing for those who say they preach the gospel in their church and for those who claim their pastor does – my question – does he really? And does he preach the gospel to the Christian … or just the unsaved visitor.

    If I plugged into your church podcast will I hear week in and week out Jesus Christ and him crucified? Will I hear that Jesus provided for your, the Christian, salvation by his perfect life and death on the cross? (that is the gospel) Or is that the tagline to the unbeliever at the end of the service to announce an altar call?

  55. Jean says:

    Sometimes our discussion threads go in so many different directions that people may not remember the principle message of the article, so here is the conclusion:

    “Jesus satisfied God’s wrath against sin on the cross as our substitute. “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” [cit. omitt.] If we are able to behold Christ’s death on the cross for our sins and receive His unconditional forgiveness by faith alone, then we may have absolute certainty in every situation that God is not angry with us. Not only is He not angry with us, He is our heavenly Father who loves us. Amen!

    ‘And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose’ (Rom 8:28) Amen.”

    I can’t imagine this is a controversial conclusion.

  56. Josh the Baptist says:

    I’m glad that guys like MLD love their rituals. Others felt like they were dying under those rituals, and so I’m glad the Lord is not confined to what MLD likes.

    MLD – I preached this morning. You wouldn’t have liked it. Jesus did.

  57. Siggy the Terrible says:

    Sorry, MLD,

    I now think it might be possible that you don’t know what you’re talking about? No offense 😛

    You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth without clearly saying how preaching the law and Gospel ought to be . Maybe you can explain it for me…

  58. Michael says:

    While I disagree with MLD on a number of things, he knows better than 95% of non clergymen what he’s talking about…and better than a bunch of clergymen, as well.

    He’s steeped in confessional Lutheranism which has 500 years of active scholarship and practice behind it.

    We can disagree agreeably…but should do so with respect.

  59. Siggy the Terrible says:

    Michael, you’re right.

    MLD
    I’m sorry, I meant no disrespect. I glanced over your posts at first, responded, and now I reread your posts. I understand where you’re coming from. That is all true.

    It’s clear I have a lot to learn. Alot to remember. Apologies.

  60. Disillusioned says:

    Truth Lover,
    I have to ask, and forgive me if I should know this from previous posts, but: are you CC? I ask because your posts sound so much like the one I attended, especially this:

    “Knowing the holiness of God, His wrath towards sin is the important black back drop we need to more fully appreciate His grace. We need to learn the whole counsel of God, not pick and choose what feels good to us. Some preach grace to the total neglect of the rest of the Bible”

    That is like verbatim what I heard over and over again.

    Thing is, I don’t believe anyone here picks and chooses what “feels good” to us. It seems we are all in the same quest for truth, and that would necessitate NOT picking or choosing, but rather seeing things as they are.

    Many times our vision gets clouded, though. We are convinced that what we believe IS the truth. But what if it’s not?

    The older I get, the less assured I am of knowing what is true and what isn’t. So, to me, being so confident of a particular stance/theology regarding God’s wrath based on someone else’s teaching is folly. I think it’s also folly to try to separate God into categories…His wrath and His love. He is all that and more, so much more.

  61. CostcoCal says:

    Disillusioned said:

    “The older I get, the less assured I am of knowing what is true and what isn’t. So, to me, being so confident of a particular stance/theology regarding God’s wrath based on someone else’s teaching is folly. I think it’s also folly to try to separate God into categories…His wrath and His love. He is all that and more, so much more.”

    I say, “Amen!”

  62. John 20:29 says:

    even if it wanders around the real estate a bit, i love this thread… thank you for prompting it, Jean
    MLD stated:
    “The characteristic of God that I find the most powerful and relevant to me is God’s mercy.”

    most relevant, indeed, but for me it is most powerful against the backdrop of understanding God’s absolute, non compromised holiness – the length that He had to go to pay our debt, the love that motivated the act, the incredible incarnation… what hung on that cross – unspeakable and unfathomable – and then the immutable God victorious by virtue of virtue beyond our comprehension

  63. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh, zI don’t know what ‘rituals’ you are speaking of but I am sure you love yours also.
    I just think if more churches preach the Christ instead of the Christian that we would have less clamoring for Christians to be put back under the law.
    People are free to disagree. 😉

  64. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael, thank you for the kind words – but I would like to know who that other 5% is 😉

  65. Josh the Baptist says:

    “don’t know what ‘rituals’ you are speaking of but I am sure you love yours also.”

    Of course I do. But I recognize them as such. I have found God there, as you have in your tribe. I truly am happy for you, like I said.

    I find the constant sermon policing to be a bit arrogant, and I am glad that the body of Christ is bigger than the LCMS…and the SBC.

  66. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh,
    “I find the constant sermon policing to be a bit arrogant,”

    Apparently, unlike you I am a little more discerning as to what qualifies as a Christian sermon. I am not into “any old sermon will do.”

    So we differ – big deal, pitchers and catchers report this week. 🙂

  67. Josh the Baptist says:

    I don’t like baseball.

    I just don’t know why you are the ultimate judge of which sermon will do and which will not. Kind of a lofty place to seat yourself, don’t you think?

    Umm…the NBA all star break is upon us? 🙂

    My Hornets are in more desperate need of a break than any team ever. And about four more star players.

  68. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – so you are saying that no one can have a thought on this subject. Benny Hinn sermon just fine? or is it, “well I don’t like it but I would never say anything to my friends who listen.”
    Steven Furtick – just fine and dandy f they make someone comfortable?

  69. Josh the Baptist says:

    Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

    Or exactly not.

  70. Truth Lover says:

    #60 Disillusioned,

    No we are not a Calvary (anymore). What I have stated is from my own understanding of scripture. I am not a pastor. I am a pastor’s wife though. Our previous Calvary was not in the U.S.

    It appears you have been beat down by unbalanced teaching? Maybe you are ultra sensitive to certain truths because you don’t fully understanding grace, which I strongly encourage you to seek good teaching on. No, not just the grace that saves you but the grace that keeps on saving you that you walk in daily. Many do not understand the Gospel today and end up in bondage. Don’t let the harder truths of scripture keep you from taking it all in. But until you start to grasp the Gospel of grace, the other pieces will not fit together. God bless~

  71. Disillusioned says:

    Truth Lover,
    I get where you’re coming from, but you’ve made wrong assumptions. Now that I’ve left CC, I revel in God’s grace every day.
    I know He loves me and died for me. His Holy Spirit tells me what to do, and quickly corrects me when I’m wrong. I want to love God and my neighbors.

    You may say I need more than that, but as for me, it’s enough at this point.

    One verse you may want to revisit is: As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities those who fear Him. He remembers that we are made of dust. Ps103

  72. Truth Lover says:

    Disillusioned,

    Your response to me seemed like you were either offended or bothered by something I said in response to someone else. So to hear you are fine and have reveled in God’s grace everyday is wonderful! I too understand that amazing grace! Nothing I’ve said is contrary to that. But people who do NOT understand grace can fall under condemnation easily. And that was all I was trying to say to you.

    As for the rest of what you said; I’m not sure where you’re coming from or what you are implying. I really don’t know you or your story, just as you don’t know me.

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