Jean’s Gospel: Is God Angry?
Is God Angry?
“And when he got into the boat, his disciples followed him. And behold, there arose a great storm on the sea, so that the boat was being swamped by the waves; but he was asleep.” (Matt 8:23-24)
A recent headline read: ‘Is God Mad?’ Mississippi Tornado Wreaks Havoc; Kills 4. The news article, which covered a Hattiesburg family that just lost their home in a tornado, quoted a young girl who asked her father: “Is God mad at us?” That weekend, nineteen people throughout the Southeast lost their lives in tornados.
It is not uncommon for victims or bystanders to ask if there is a causal connection between a tragedy and God’s wrath, because they understand God to be holy, good and just. They wonder if God caused or allowed the tragedy to occur as judgment or punishment for someone’s sin. God certainly possesses all of those attributes and He does punish sin, but does He make His invisible attributes perceptible in things that actually happen?
People engage in this line of speculation for a variety of reasons. Some Christians want to protect God’s honor by assigning blame to the victims. Other Christians want to use God’s name to bludgeon the victims in order to support their own pet cause. People who hate God may blame and judge Him as an unjust or uncaring deity. However, some Christians may simply be afraid, suffering and/or in mourning and are sincerely looking to God for answers.
“And they went and woke him, saying, ‘Save us, Lord; we are perishing.’ ” (Matt 8:25)
Based on the fact that at least four of the disciples were fishermen, Jesus and the disciples must have been caught in an extreme storm because the disciples were afraid for their lives. I would not be surprised in the least if one thought on their minds was: Is God angry at us?
That would not have been the only time that the disciples attempted to draw a causal connection from a tragedy to God’s wrath. What about the Galileans whose blood Pilate mingled with their sacrifices, people asked? (Luke 13:1). Jesus rejected the causal link and added His own story for an exclamation point: “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:2-5)
In the Gospel of John we learn of a man born blind. The disciples asked Jesus: “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2) Jesus replied that the man’s blindness was not punishment for the man or his parents’ sin, “but that the works of God might be displayed in him.” (John 9:3)
What about Job? He suffered the loss of family, possessions and health. However, Job appears to have been chosen to suffer not on account of any sin, but on account of his goodness. “And the Lord said to Satan, ‘Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?’ ” (Job 1:8) God could have chosen a lesser man to hand over to Satan, but He chose Job because Job was blameless and upright.
“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.” (Job 42:2-3)
What Jesus taught his disciples and what Job also learned is that God’s providential rule of the world is hidden from us; it consists of “things too wonderful for [us]”. We simply cannot and should not attribute a tragedy or suffering to God’s punishment of the victims. Their loss and suffering may have nothing whatsoever to do with punishment. It may just as well be attributable to God’s grace, His discipline or for His glory. God simply does not tell us the reason why.
Therefore, if we are asking “Is God mad at us (or them)?” we are asking the wrong question, and we are looking for God in the wrong place. God does not make His intentions towards us known through His providential works, so we must seek Him in only one Man, in one place.
“And he said to them, ‘Why are you afraid, O you of little faith?’ Then he rose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm. And the men marveled, saying, ‘What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?’ ” (Matt 8:25-27)
When we hear about tragedies, such as the Galileans who had their blood mixed with their sacrifices, or the victims of a terrorist attack, earthquake or tornado, Jesus says that we should respond with repentance: “but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” In this week’s text, we see the disciples enact their repentance. They turned from their fear of the storm to Christ for their salvation: “And they went and woke him, saying, ‘Save us, Lord; we are perishing.” The storm turned (or repented) the disciples to their Savior. It served God’s grace as it drew the disciples closer to Christ in faith.
Sufferings and tragedies test our faith. But Christ, who suffered for the sins of the world and who conquered sin, death and the devil, is our answer to human suffering and the question of God’s wrath. While we are not given to understand God’s providential rule by examining events in the world, good or bad, He desires that we seek our understanding of God and His love for us through the suffering and death of His Son on the cross.
Jesus satisfied God’s wrath against sin on the cross as our substitute. “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” (Rom 5:15b) If we are able to behold Christ’s death on the cross for our sins and receive His unconditional forgiveness by faith alone, then we may have absolute certainty in every situation that God is not angry with us. Not only is He not angry with us, He is our heavenly Father who loves us. Amen!
“And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose” (Rom 8:28) Amen.
An atonement post that could indeed find the anger …
I find today that the church is angry at the depiction of God as angry…
Many books on atonement that caricature the idea of appeasing God’s anger have emerged
I think this is an important word for many.
Theodicy is difficult…but I agree that the cross is the only answer.
I think the Church’s proclamation of the Son of God hanging on a cross for the sins of the world is a very strong depiction of an angry God. But it also depicts the love that God has for us.
His Righteous anger is loving anger. His wrath is justified by his love for us
“His Righteous anger is loving anger. His wrath is justified by his love for us”
Siegfried,
As a Christian, Is Christ’s atonement for your sins lacking anything? In other words, is He your 100% mediator and advocate before the Father, or did he leave you in some percentage naked before the Father to fend for yourself?
I am just glad that his anger and wrath was not aimed at me – Jesus was the target.
MLD – Me too
Jean, I feel like you are asking leading questions. Why not not just state your position? I might agree…
Siegfried,
I wasn’t sure what point you were making. My position is in the article. But to clarify, Jesus took the wrath and judgment I deserved, and gave me His name and adoption as a child of God the Father. I have nothing to fear from my Father.
True. God is the God of the old and new testaments. We are commanded to fear Him, not man.
I felt as though your article was making the point that God does not get angry. Just a feeling.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
But he has already satisfied that wrath on the cross. There is no more wrath.
That was written after the cross, and in the present tense.
God’s wrath in Revelation 16 is still future.
“God is angry with the wicked everyday” He still has anger but not towards His children. Christ absorbed our wrath for us. But not so the wicked who have not placed their faith in Christ.
With all the talk of God just being love, we have an unbalanced view of God. God is HOLY, HOLY, HOLY and therefore hates anything that is NOT holy. His holiness and wrath go hand in hand. If we had a better view of His wrath towards sin, we would live differently.
Siegried and Josh,
Let me put it this way, (1) if you are in Christ, there is no condemnation (i.e., now wrath now or to come, (2) at the cross the world was judged, Christ took the punishment, and the end times started. God vindicated Christ and raised him from the dead. By faith (and signified in baptism) we are crucified with Christ and raised with him in the new creation. In the flesh we are in the old age; by faith we are new creations in the world to come.
Everything in the old age has been judged. The wages of sin is death. And when Christ returns, there will be a final judgment (but for Christians, we have already been justified, and that will be confirmed).
Does that make sense?
Now, but not yet.
Paul describes it as present. John as future. Just like we have redemption now, but it is not yet fulfilled in totale. Just as with messianic prophecies in OT are often given in past tense.
Truth Lover and Jean,
Well, yeeaah, geez, … 😉 That’s what I meant to say.
“With all the talk of God just being love, we have an unbalanced view of God. God is HOLY, HOLY, HOLY and therefore hates anything that is NOT holy. His holiness and wrath go hand in hand. If we had a better view of His wrath towards sin, we would live differently.”
I will share with you how I process this. God is certainly holy, but He is also the creator of this earth and of all people, and as its creator he did not step away from our rebellion, but took responsibility out of his love for us to send us a Redeemer.
“For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
God sent His only begotten Son for us, because we are incapable and literally unwilling to honor God on our own. When I think of God’s wrath post Easter, I think it is when people refuse His unconditional grace and mercy.
God has already reconciled himself to us – 2 Cor 5:19 = “19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.”
If he is not counting people’s sin against them / us (this would be all people) why would there still be wrath?
The problem of Christian suffering is a big topic. To oversimply, I would say:
We Christians rightly believe that God is: Good, strong, and loving. It’s Biblical. But in the midst of suffering, when trying to make sense of suffering, it is easy to pick two of the three and deny one.
Such as:
God is good and strong – but He doesn’t love me. This is why I suffer.
God is good and loving – but He is not strong enough to protect me. This is why I suffer.
God is strong and loving – but He is not good. This is why I suffer.
They make sense, but each is not Biblical.
Rather:
The Father loves me like this He sent His Son for me. John 3
The Son’s strength for me is that He lays down His life for me. John 10
The Holy Spirit is good to me for He comforts me with God’s goodness. John 14:26
Not as rational but Biblical and comforting in the midst of suffering. Job’s friends were wrong. And we are saved from God’s wrath by grace through faith in Christ. The tragedies we experience or hear about are from God’s wrath but for us…let us repent and turn to God for He is good, strong, and loves you eternally in Christ.
Big topic. Short answer. Thanks Jean.
an angry God? doesn’t that make Him sound unbalanced? but is He?
oh i think we better believe He is angry about something…
still, when we got ourselves kicked out of the garden (i think that event gives us a hint as to who He’s angry with), He wasn’t surprised, it didn’t make Him mad, but it did begin a long, long drama and so full of sorrows that it must be very important in His plan – if you’re not a Believer then you’re most vulnerable, just going on the tide toward the end of the drama – while it may have its moments, this isn’t Paradise down here anymore…
that said, no disaster ever makes God happy, does it?
i think that all of God’s attributes are always perfect and perfectly in balance, always in agreement and no one aspect of His character ever overpowers the others – He is an absolute – His holiness should both terrify and comfort us – every dealing He has with a man and with mankind is always perfect…
just sayin … pontificating … and thinking… again
John 20:29
Psalm 23 is a good example of fear and comfort in Him
Jean at 14 – Well said. Totally agree.
My comment about future wrath was in response to MLD.
I think Jesus’ lesson can be summed up in what He also said, “he who loves his life shall lose it.”
I was reading something yesterday, and I’ve seen it touched upon in this thread, something like that if I were to believe certain things about God, it would make me question the character of the God I worship.
Everybody dies (in the flesh). I think trying to discern that which is beyond our fleshly minds to comprehend. His ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. Who are we to presume to judge God?
The imperfect analog, but an analog nonetheless) in our world is a parent-child relationship. Who are my 4 and 7 year old children to question me about not giving them candy for dinner? Where were they when I bought the home, and brought the food (and candy)? IMO, one possible starting point regarding Theodicy is to consider our familial relationships on Earth.
As for wrath… isn’t it possible for believers to grieve the Spirit? Why did believers who didn’t discern the body and blood of Christ correctly get sick and fall asleep?
Hi Josh. Thank you.
Hi Pastor Jeff. Great counsel at #19.
Victor,
Looking for models of God’s love, I look at Jesus first, then the Prodigal, then the Good Samaritan, the master of the unforgiving servant, the master of the vineyard, etc. All great stuff. Of course comment #19 is succinct and well said.
“I was reading something yesterday, and I’ve seen it touched upon in this thread, something like that if I were to believe certain things about God, it would make me question the character of the God I worship.”
This is why Christianity was distinctive during the ante Nicene period, from among the numerous religions of that period, as a people of the book and a creedal religion. If salvation is a gift apprehended by faith alone, then your doctrine of who God is is very important.
Jean’s post today is a good reminder to me that our pastors are so focused on leading us to inward examination, self absorbed thinking…
i know people are all different, but the more we see of Christ and the Triune God, the more we’ll appreciate what we have and what we are in Christ… and so the less we’ll fear and waver in our Faith as we walk thru this world…
not just knowing those wonderful creeds, but seeing God as reality in them
forgive the lame philosophizing again, but surely the still waters of Psalm 23 are not stagnant waters, but living water 🙂
I would love it if someone would write a thread on all the verses where it states what God hates. I think it would be very insightful. Because we need to understand God better in light of what He hates and what angers Him. But we Americans like to always keep everything “happy and positive”, which drives me crazy, and don’t usually like to talk about such things. The Church truly does have such a pitiful view of God these days and we need to be slapped in the face, so to speak, with some sobering truth that will radically shift our thinking. I’m sad to not see very many comments on this subject, which in itself, is very telling.
I think Em nails it – too much (in my opinion) focus on self. One thing my son can’t get past was the constant self-flagellation at CC. Yes, we’re worms, yes my sin put Christ on the cross, yes I don’t deserve to live, etc etc etc
The common thread there was I, I, I…
So for me, Truth Lover, the verses on God’s wrath are already carved on my heart. And there were many times where that’s all I could think about, to the exclusion of grace and mercy and love.
Disillusimoned, You’ve hit the nail on the head for many people. To add to your comment:
“But we must learn that forgiveness of sins, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are given to us freely, simply by believing what we hear preached, despite our horrible sins. We must not think about the greatness of what is given, nor about how unworthy we are of it (for if we did that, we would be terrified); rather, we must think how it pleases God to give us this unutterable gift freely [citation omitted]. If he wants to give it, I must not consider my own sin and unworthiness but only his fatherly goodwill toward me; I must receive this great gift with joy and gladness and be thankful.
Here again, foolish reason is offended and says, “This makes grace look contemptible, and people will be complacent, idle, and dissolute, so that they do no good at all. So it is not a good idea to preach this doctrine; it cannot be true. People must be urged to labor and to exercise themselves for righteousness, and then they will obtain this gift.” This is the very same thing the Pelagians said in the past. But listen to what Paul says in this passage: You have received the Holy Spirit not by your own labor, but by believing what you heard. Martha was busy and could hardly stand her sister Mary’s listening to Jesus; but listen to what Christ says: “Martha, Martha, you are worried and upset about many things, but only one thing one is needed. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her” [citation omitted]. We become Christians, therefore, not by working but by listening; therefore, those who want to exercise themselves for righteousness must first exercise themselves in listening to the Gospel. When they have heard and received the Gospel, they should give thanks to God gladly, and then they can exercise themselves in those good works that are commanded in the law, so that the law and works may follow belief in what is heard. Thus they may quietly walk in the light—that is, follow Christ—and boldly choose and do works, not hypocritically, but doing things that they know please God and are commanded by him.”
– Martin Luther, Commentary on Gal 3:2
Truth Lover,
If you want to hear what God hates, go to your local evangelical / purpose driven church where the message is designed to keep Christians living under the law instead of living in grace. The evangelical / purpose driven message is totally void of “come to me and I will give you rest.”
What does God hate?? Christians. The difference is so apparent as I watch folks come into our church as recovering evangelicals, and jonesing in the pews for personal application, which does not come in the Lutheran liturgy.
I think any list of what God hates has to start with brussel sprouts.
“I would love it if someone would write a thread on all the verses where it states what God hates. I think it would be very insightful. Because we need to understand God better in light of what He hates and what angers Him.”
You’re on the wrong blog for something like that.
We reject your idea that we need to understand God in terms of what angers Him…we understand God through the cross where He poured out His wrath on Christ for us.
Too funny Michael!
33
Michael might that be kind of missing the forest for the trees? God is angered by spiritual harlotry, so Christ took the wrath of his anger for us. His righteous anger is not mutually exclusive from his righteousness.
MLD, It’s not only the Lutheran church that teaches the Gospel correctly so take it down a notch. I do not need to find a church and especially a Lutheran church if they all come across as proud. Our church is a Gospel centered church, thank you very much.
Michael, I am shocked at your conclusion about wanting to understand God more when it comes to His nature. We have a very soft view of God today and a soft view of sin. Wanting to understand what God hates is called studying the Bible. To refuse to look at what scripture says about God no matter how “unpleasant” it may be for some, just baffles me. Yes, we stand and walk in grace but that doesn’t mean to the exclusion of the fear of God. Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age,…”
Truth Lover,
Studying God means to study Christ who is “the image of the invisible God.
Christ revealed God to us through the Incarnation and the Cross…and his hate was subsumed in the death of Christ for all who believe.
The problem with all your “gotcha” verses is that we are all guilty of every one of them…so I’ll understand Christ as the one who forgave all my guilt and shame and proclaim His grace and forgiveness at the Lord’s table every Sunday to my congregation.
Well said Michael!
Thanks Duster…getting ready to preach tomorrow…
Truth Lover,
Believe me, you do need to hear a different message. Yes, other churches do preach the gospel, but they do not know how to properly distinguish between law and gospel.
Anyone who advocates preaching God’s anger and wrath to the children of Christ does not understand the gospel message.
Michael, wish i could be there
Dusty, I think you’d be blessed and we would be blessed to have you.
I will be with you in prayer. Love your little sis
Love you too, sis.
then again perhaps some do need a good understanding of the absolute holiness of God in order to appreciate the gospel message… wrath, anger, hate – those words show up hundreds of time in the Bible and can be used as hammers, but none of them lead to an appreciation of God…
i’m one of those people who loves to drive or take road trips, but you lift the hood on that car when the engine is running and it scares me, not because i think it will attack me, but because the power of the thing in action where i can see it, hear it and maybe even feel it (depending on the vehicle)… kind of overwhelms me…
just thinking on everyone’s thoughts here with gratitude for turning me to think on such things
i pray that we could all have a sense of the omnipotent, immutable power of God along with an appreciation for Him – for the miracle that is grace, the unspeakable cost of our redemption: such love, but a love that never compromised His holiness… i think obedience is our gift to Him, but our justification is not in anything we can do… if we try to repay Him, we are like the poor little cat, who brings the gift of a dead mouse to the person who feeds it…
He never intends that we be anxious in our relationship to Him – except …
maybe anxious to learn more? … dunno
This is not a refutation of Em’s comment, but a launching pad for my comment. Em mentions understanding the absolute holiness of God – others bring up the absolute sovereignty of God. Those do nothing for me as they both point to God can squash me like a bug – what use do I have for that in my life? When I think of the omnipotent, immutable power of God all I can see is all of that hanging on the cross.
The characteristic of God that I find the most powerful and relevant to me is God’s mercy.
If someone from my class came to me and suggested that I teach about all that God hates I would have a 2 part response.
1.) If you want it taught for some theological purpose I would say no – it has no relevance to our current standing with God.
2.) If you want it as an academic pursuit – well, perhaps I would consider it.
” i think obedience is our gift to Him”
Since none of us have been obedient (unless you have reached sinless perfection) – then none of us have delivered a gift to God yet.
MLD #40
I’m not advocating we “preach” God’s wrath and what He hates as the normative church sermon. Please don’t twist my intent. I just wanted to discuss it here. It could have been an insightful discussion. And please stop judging me as to what I understand or not. It’s very condescending and unspiritual.
Michael, #37
I still think knowing God in all of His attributes is extremely important. We don’t preach the Gospel to the neglect of teaching the rest of the Bible. It’s all connected. AS A PASTOR YOU KNOW THIS! Knowing the holiness of God, His wrath towards sin is the important black back drop we need to more fully appreciate His grace. We need to learn the whole counsel of God, not pick and choose what feels good to us. Some preach grace to the total neglect of the rest of the Bible; which will give us a shallow definition of grace. All of God’s Word is inspired. We need to know it all to fully appreciate grace and the cross.
2 Tim. 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.”
Yes, I know you know this verse. Question: Do you teach through the Old Testament? Do you exclude any New Testament books?
Truth Lover,
I teach the OT as it’s interpreted in the New.
Jesus said if you’ve seen Him, you’ve seen God.
Thus, He’s what I want to learn of.
The whole counsel of Scripture doesn’t mean you teach the whole book verse by verse…it means that you understand the whole Bible points to Jesus as the fulfillment of all that was written…
His wrath belongs here:
I Tim I:viii But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted…
His Grace, love, forgiveness here:
…13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
Am I close?
This I tell you brother/
You can’t have one without the other!
Michael,
Is Jesus on every page? I’ve heard that often.
MLD,
Perhaps there are so many beautiful birds crowding the mustard plant that the pastor find it necessary to preach to the unrepentant within the church, swelling up the body. Not every CC sermon I heard was fire and brimstone.
Michael,
Even Jesus explained the Gospel beginning with Moses and going through all the prophets on the road to Emmaus. Verse by verse? I dont know. Seeing as how he taught to Jewish people generally who were already verse by verse instructed as kids, I doubt it.
I always have trouble with those who are still seeking God on Mt Sinai – with all of the fire and lightening bolts.
Do some not realize that today we find God on Mt Calvary hanging on the cross and the resurrected Christ on Mt Zion which is the Church?
Some need a new map. 😉
Siggy,
Again a major difference as you think the law is preached only to the unrepentant. My pastor preaches law to all, not just the unrepentant in the congregation. I am 100% sinner at the same time as being 100% justified. My old man is at constant battle with my new.
My old man can hear only law and cannot hear or comprehend the gospel. My new man is just the opposite and can hear only gospel – so the pastor must ‘rightly divide’ the word of God – which is what the passage means – to properly distinguish between those 2 words God speaks – law & gospel.
On last thing for those who say they preach the gospel in their church and for those who claim their pastor does – my question – does he really? And does he preach the gospel to the Christian … or just the unsaved visitor.
If I plugged into your church podcast will I hear week in and week out Jesus Christ and him crucified? Will I hear that Jesus provided for your, the Christian, salvation by his perfect life and death on the cross? (that is the gospel) Or is that the tagline to the unbeliever at the end of the service to announce an altar call?
Sometimes our discussion threads go in so many different directions that people may not remember the principle message of the article, so here is the conclusion:
“Jesus satisfied God’s wrath against sin on the cross as our substitute. “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” [cit. omitt.] If we are able to behold Christ’s death on the cross for our sins and receive His unconditional forgiveness by faith alone, then we may have absolute certainty in every situation that God is not angry with us. Not only is He not angry with us, He is our heavenly Father who loves us. Amen!
‘And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose’ (Rom 8:28) Amen.”
I can’t imagine this is a controversial conclusion.
I’m glad that guys like MLD love their rituals. Others felt like they were dying under those rituals, and so I’m glad the Lord is not confined to what MLD likes.
MLD – I preached this morning. You wouldn’t have liked it. Jesus did.
Sorry, MLD,
I now think it might be possible that you don’t know what you’re talking about? No offense 😛
You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth without clearly saying how preaching the law and Gospel ought to be . Maybe you can explain it for me…
While I disagree with MLD on a number of things, he knows better than 95% of non clergymen what he’s talking about…and better than a bunch of clergymen, as well.
He’s steeped in confessional Lutheranism which has 500 years of active scholarship and practice behind it.
We can disagree agreeably…but should do so with respect.
Michael, you’re right.
MLD
I’m sorry, I meant no disrespect. I glanced over your posts at first, responded, and now I reread your posts. I understand where you’re coming from. That is all true.
It’s clear I have a lot to learn. Alot to remember. Apologies.
Truth Lover,
I have to ask, and forgive me if I should know this from previous posts, but: are you CC? I ask because your posts sound so much like the one I attended, especially this:
“Knowing the holiness of God, His wrath towards sin is the important black back drop we need to more fully appreciate His grace. We need to learn the whole counsel of God, not pick and choose what feels good to us. Some preach grace to the total neglect of the rest of the Bible”
That is like verbatim what I heard over and over again.
Thing is, I don’t believe anyone here picks and chooses what “feels good” to us. It seems we are all in the same quest for truth, and that would necessitate NOT picking or choosing, but rather seeing things as they are.
Many times our vision gets clouded, though. We are convinced that what we believe IS the truth. But what if it’s not?
The older I get, the less assured I am of knowing what is true and what isn’t. So, to me, being so confident of a particular stance/theology regarding God’s wrath based on someone else’s teaching is folly. I think it’s also folly to try to separate God into categories…His wrath and His love. He is all that and more, so much more.
Disillusioned said:
“The older I get, the less assured I am of knowing what is true and what isn’t. So, to me, being so confident of a particular stance/theology regarding God’s wrath based on someone else’s teaching is folly. I think it’s also folly to try to separate God into categories…His wrath and His love. He is all that and more, so much more.”
I say, “Amen!”
even if it wanders around the real estate a bit, i love this thread… thank you for prompting it, Jean
MLD stated:
“The characteristic of God that I find the most powerful and relevant to me is God’s mercy.”
most relevant, indeed, but for me it is most powerful against the backdrop of understanding God’s absolute, non compromised holiness – the length that He had to go to pay our debt, the love that motivated the act, the incredible incarnation… what hung on that cross – unspeakable and unfathomable – and then the immutable God victorious by virtue of virtue beyond our comprehension
Josh, zI don’t know what ‘rituals’ you are speaking of but I am sure you love yours also.
I just think if more churches preach the Christ instead of the Christian that we would have less clamoring for Christians to be put back under the law.
People are free to disagree. 😉
Michael, thank you for the kind words – but I would like to know who that other 5% is 😉
“don’t know what ‘rituals’ you are speaking of but I am sure you love yours also.”
Of course I do. But I recognize them as such. I have found God there, as you have in your tribe. I truly am happy for you, like I said.
I find the constant sermon policing to be a bit arrogant, and I am glad that the body of Christ is bigger than the LCMS…and the SBC.
Josh,
“I find the constant sermon policing to be a bit arrogant,”
Apparently, unlike you I am a little more discerning as to what qualifies as a Christian sermon. I am not into “any old sermon will do.”
So we differ – big deal, pitchers and catchers report this week. 🙂
I don’t like baseball.
I just don’t know why you are the ultimate judge of which sermon will do and which will not. Kind of a lofty place to seat yourself, don’t you think?
Umm…the NBA all star break is upon us? 🙂
My Hornets are in more desperate need of a break than any team ever. And about four more star players.
Josh – so you are saying that no one can have a thought on this subject. Benny Hinn sermon just fine? or is it, “well I don’t like it but I would never say anything to my friends who listen.”
Steven Furtick – just fine and dandy f they make someone comfortable?
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
Or exactly not.
#60 Disillusioned,
No we are not a Calvary (anymore). What I have stated is from my own understanding of scripture. I am not a pastor. I am a pastor’s wife though. Our previous Calvary was not in the U.S.
It appears you have been beat down by unbalanced teaching? Maybe you are ultra sensitive to certain truths because you don’t fully understanding grace, which I strongly encourage you to seek good teaching on. No, not just the grace that saves you but the grace that keeps on saving you that you walk in daily. Many do not understand the Gospel today and end up in bondage. Don’t let the harder truths of scripture keep you from taking it all in. But until you start to grasp the Gospel of grace, the other pieces will not fit together. God bless~
Truth Lover,
I get where you’re coming from, but you’ve made wrong assumptions. Now that I’ve left CC, I revel in God’s grace every day.
I know He loves me and died for me. His Holy Spirit tells me what to do, and quickly corrects me when I’m wrong. I want to love God and my neighbors.
You may say I need more than that, but as for me, it’s enough at this point.
One verse you may want to revisit is: As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities those who fear Him. He remembers that we are made of dust. Ps103
Disillusioned,
Your response to me seemed like you were either offended or bothered by something I said in response to someone else. So to hear you are fine and have reveled in God’s grace everyday is wonderful! I too understand that amazing grace! Nothing I’ve said is contrary to that. But people who do NOT understand grace can fall under condemnation easily. And that was all I was trying to say to you.
As for the rest of what you said; I’m not sure where you’re coming from or what you are implying. I really don’t know you or your story, just as you don’t know me.