Kevin H On Disagreeing Agreeably
One of the main reasons I really like this place is the breadth and depth of discussion that takes place across the Christian spectrum.
While it may be out there somewhere, I have not come across any other place on the internet where there is so much interactive input from such a variety of Christian denominations, traditions, and viewpoints as there is here at the Phoenix Preacher.
Of course with that kind of diversity (along with the nature of topics that are covered here) it can get heated at times and that is not particularly my cup of tea. I will usually stay out of the fray. The heat can sometimes serve good purposes. Many other times it doesn’t. Regardless, I still do really appreciate this place and much of the discussion that takes place.
I grew up in a conservative evangelical tradition. I still do consider myself to be a conservative evangelical although I don’t claim allegiance to any particular denomination or faith tradition. I am also not a theologian or pastor. I cannot keep up with some of the discussions that take place here, nor do I even try. Rather, I try to read and learn as I can.
With all that said and knowing there are those who know much more than me from a theological perspective, there is an attitude that really sticks in my craw the more I learn and advance in life. And most especially when it comes from my Christian brothers and sisters.
That is when one has an attitude or approach where they know it all and are condescending and demeaning and divisive toward others, especially other Christians.
It happens here, it happens other places, it happens pretty much anywhere there are humans. I am sometimes guilty of it myself. Now speaking in a Christian context, there needs to be some kind of ascertained basis that is agreed to and held onto, or else there cannot be any real faith at all. I will primarily look to the three classic Christian creeds (http://bookofconcord.org/creeds.php) for this basis. (Yes, MLD, you can thank me for linking to the Book of Concord.) One cannot walk around denying the deity of Jesus or his resurrection and expect others to accept him or her as a Christian. Yet when one Christian speaks to or of another in a disdainful or discordant manner, especially on secondary or tertiary matters, I say – No Good.
Yes, I know there would be some disagreement on what makes up primary matters and which ones are secondary or tertiary. And yes, I know there can be practices within Christendom that aren’t essential to the faith yet are still harmful. Those things still need to be dealt with seriously. And no, I don’t think it’s necessarily problematic for those who are convinced they hold to the truth on many secondary or tertiary matters. There are some of these issues where I’m pretty sure I hold to the truth of the matter. But we ought to express those beliefs with humility and in recognition of their relative importance.
We need to be careful in how we deal with and speak to and of each other.
God calls us to live together with harmony and humbleness. (1 Peter 3:8) He wants us to effort to live in unity. (Eph 4:3) When we speak to and of each other in arrogant and divisive fashions, we hinder our endeavors to achieve these directives. I don’t think there is any problem when we speak to and of the disagreements we have with each other if we can do it in a reasonable and fair and humble way. However, if we are regularly speaking in a condescending tone to and of those who hold to a different eschatological system, or who believe differently on the signs gifts, or about Bible translations, or about alcohol or dancing or gambling, etc., etc., etc……then we have a problem. (And don’t even get me started when this is done in a disingenuous or sometimes even flat out dishonest fashion by intentionally misrepresenting the “other side” or making them out to appear worse than they really are.)
This problem is nothing new. It happens all over the internet. It happens from the pulpit. It happens from the pews. It is something to which I have grown more sensitive to over the last so many years. I have to be careful that I’m not condescending to the condescenders. π Maybe it’s not the worst problem in the world and certainly there are other behaviors and actions which have greater consequences. But this is one problem that sticks out to me and I say we can and need to do better.
I completely disagree with this article. It sucks.
This is a growing problem in our culture as a whole. The idea of trolling–posting provocative messages in order to inflame others just because you can, has become prevalent. I agree with you, Kevin–the key is humility and a desire to show the love of Christ in all we say and do. This is one area the church should definitely be different than the world but unfortunately many times, isn’t.
Just kidding π
Well done Kevin H!!!!!
Cash,
You are right that this is a growing problem in our culture. The proliferation of social media has made it so quick and easy for people to express their disdain of others. This should be all the more reason for Christians to be aware of the potential pitfalls and instead try to contrast so much of what happens around them by showing the love of Christ through patience and humility and by speaking in fair and reasonable ways. Easier said than done.
Thanks, Pastor Al for the gracious disagreement, or agreement. π
If people would just agree with me, things would be much more peaceful and Christian like. However, you stiff neck readers just won’t do it my way and cause disruption. π
Good article Kevin. I will hold off the duel until Opening Day.
btw, 35 days 11 hours and 51 min and 43 sec (as I type) until pitchers and catchers report.
for anyone who needs it — my gift
http://www.springtrainingcountdown.com/#sthash.qsNQnTmx.Hc5yExt8.dpbs
MLD,
You don’t have to wait til Opening Day. I concede the duel to you this year. But just give it another year or two. Maybe we will then see another moment like Matt Stairs & Jonathan Broxton. π
Having the man that baptized you warn teenagers against “idiots” like yourself from the pulpit is something I’m still trying to get some resolution on.
Oh well.
Excellent article Kevin! We should all aspire to what you have shared. Helps with the blood pressure!! π
Kevin’s points are valid – as someone pointed out in the past, we can’t see the tone of ‘voice’ or the facial expressions when someone types out a thot or shares their heart here… but i’m not too sure that all of us can do what the call of this post is and still be honest in expressing their faith…
as well as exposing hypocrisy and exploitation that seems to grow under the banner of Christendom these days, Michael wants his website to be a place of healing for the walking wounded in the Body of Christ, i know that… but …
funny thing is… i know i am right – period! and yet i have no desire to “reform” any of those who love the Lord and have found their niche, their traditions in order to walk the walk and i learn from every single person who expresses themselves here… some break my heart, some try my patience, but, strangely, as i read the posts and comments i’m gaining an appreciation for why God so loves this world
He made us and He is a beautiful God- pray for souls to find Him and seriously pray for Michael
just sayin… cuz i can here (and so can you, eh? :smile )
Em,
I don’t care about your avatar, IN-N-OUT is better than boy’s big boy! π
Excuse me, Moniker.
Kevin,
Good article! Has Michael hired you part time? π
I thought I’d better publish this one before tomorrows series on egalitarianism… π
What an excellent article, particularly apropos for this forum. The art of conversation and intelligent discussion is disappearing from online forums, because most everyone wants to be heard but not listen. So, it becomes a yelling match. When I go on a forum I want to hear what others are saying. I also want the courtesy of being heard. But when I and everyone else is being preached at, I’ll exit the “conversation”.
Kevin has been a huge help…
God sometimes affirms me by sending co-laborers like Kevin and Eric L.
They are making a big difference for me.
Michael,
“I thought Iβd better publish this one before tomorrows series on egalitarianism⦔
Have no fear, we have peacefully handled bigger heresies than egalitarianism in the past π
Bob,
I get paid as much as Miss Kitty. Minus the treats and cat food. π
I kinda miss the days from a couple years ago when MLD and I went at it tooth and nail all the time. And then …
Bob S., i go clear back to when there was only one Bob’s Big Boy – a drive-in on Colorado Ave. just south of Glendale High School π the burgers then were enormous, but they used to have something called a “chili-size,” spaghetti topped with a meat patty and chili gravy; for some reason i loved that thing …
Em,
I enjoyed a few burgers from that location.
ever wonder why an occasional thread gets detoured onto the subject of coffee or hamburgers? lol … there’s never a psychiatrist around when i need one …
we had a moose go down the driveway yesterday, if i can get a copy of picture of him, i’ll change my avatar
It’s your moniker. ?
Bob & Em sure have not learned anything from the Kevin H article the way they keep arguing back and forth — moniker/ avatar.
Em,
Do you remember “The Hat?” Great pastrami. It is still there.
Great article K.
In this current culture of acceptance does this mean Alex won’t be coming to the party any time soon? π
I tried The Hay in Lake Forest once. That’s pastrami for the Goy.
I grew up on Canters in the Fairfax district. That is real pastrami. π
Well MLD,
How about Nate and Als on rodeo drive?
Your right MLD. Their pastrami was untainted. Most places serve flavorless pastrami that has been soaked potassium sulfate which raises the water content and dilutes the flavor as a side effect. But eat is sold by the pound so everyone does it but a select few.
Oops, I was a know it all, forgive me Kevin…LOL
“I grew up on Canters in the Fairfax district. That is real pastrami.” i had corned beef piled high on Kaiser rolls with horseradish somewhere in the L.A. garment district – never had any as good since… better’n pastrami IMV π
the Hat doesn’t ring a bell, but there was a large deli a block off of Brand Blvd that served passable corned beef… pastrami, too i guess
if i can get my moose avatar, does anyone know anything about moose meat? lol
Okay, enough of all this food talk with your West Coast biases. You all need to come to Philly and get a good cheesesteak. This is a primary matter and I do know it all! π
Kevin,
My wife and I enjoyed a cheesesteak sandwich at Genos, nothing like it.
Well Bob, I see you have made the pilgrimage to the Cheesesteak Mecca. However, if you were truly devoted, you would have also gotten a cheesesteak across the corner at Pat’s. A real devotee would have doubled up on their artery blockages. But the fact that you made it at all speaks more for you than most of the rest of those West Coast pansies.
π π π
I think Bob Sweat is a liberal for eating Philly Cheesesteaks. Now we know he goes both ways. π
Ah Kevin,
You be absolutely correct. A Philly Cheese Steak out here on the Westcoast has no comparison to the real deal of a cheese steak on location (Philly). Next time I am in New York I will seek out the real deal.
You can’t go wrong with food as a topic LOL.