Kevin’s Conversations: Partisan Politics, the Rapture, and the National Day of Prayer…

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97 Responses

  1. Michael says:

    I’m the Phoenix Preacher and I approved this message… 🙂

  2. Michael says:

    They ought to just come out and label this event for what it is…”The National Day of Right Wing Conservative Prayers That God Will Bless Our Agenda Or Rapture Us Away.”

  3. Jean says:

    I remember hearing Laurie’s pronouncement on the nuclear deal, and two things came immediately to mind?

    What is his expertise in the matter to make such a judgment?

    I thought that blessed are the peace makers. How could a man of God call a non military solution a disaster?

  4. Bob Sweat says:

    Bravo!!! Good job Kevin!

  5. Duane Arnold says:

    Kevin

    Thank you. This is an exceptional piece, and clearly written from your heart. Well done.

  6. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Kevin H, great article!

    And to bring great cheer to the huge American rapture crowd, this just in – Rihanna is a dispensationalist and she has identified the anti christ.

    http://yournewswire.com/rihanna-prince-william-is-the-antichrist/

  7. Descended says:

    Kevin

    Haven’t finished yet, but just wanted to tell you excellent piece! The gospel is offensive enough to any unbeliever. There is no need to impose Moral Majority values on the hearer, watering down the message and dividing the audience.

  8. Kevin H says:

    Thanks all for the feedback.

  9. Kevin H says:

    MLD,

    I thought your link was surely satire, but now after looking at that website a little bit, I’m not so sure.

  10. Michael says:

    I thought Kevin and I would be sharing a bunker somewhere under a Calvary Chapel after this one…glad to see good responses…

  11. Kevin H says:

    Descended,

    I have written here a time or two before about how we should be careful about causing unnecessary offense. And, yes, the gospel itself can be offensive (this would be necessary offense) and so we should try to avoid adding our own offense to it.

  12. Kevin H says:

    Michael,

    It’s still early. We might yet need that bunker. Maybe we can find some old Y2Ker who will rent one out to us.

  13. em ... again says:

    refreshing read, thank you, Kevin

    it should be pretty clear, but it isn’t, is it?
    1-if you’re called by God to pastor or evangelize then do that
    2-on the other hand, if you feel your calling is to warn the world of coming disasters and bad judgement on the part of leadership, then do that – even if you wish to enforce your conclusions with Scripture insights that you feel you’ve gleaned, that’s okay IMV, go ahead and do so…
    but don’t speak out of both sides of your mouth, if your job is to bring people to an understanding of the love of God, of His salvation and His omnipotent holiness, you’d better be a-political in public… and maybe in private, also?

    i hear we’re going to Mars by 2030, if we do that, then rewind the end times clock – i remember when pastors were telling us that God wouldn’t allow men to set foot on the moon, let alone go there and return… course the guys going to Mars aren’t coming back (i hope they know that 🙂 )

  14. em ... again says:

    #10 – aha! there’s bunkers under the Calvary Chapels? – now we know where to go when “disaster strikes”

  15. Everstudy says:

    #3 “I thought that blessed are the peace makers. How could a man of God call a non military solution a disaster?”

    see Chamberlain, 1938. 😉

  16. Josh the Baptist says:

    “why go to church to hear a man stand up there who is talking about the social and political issues and the headlines of the newspapers? Why go to church to hear a fellow like that, when someone who knows ten times as much about it will be writing in Newsweek or in Time? Why go to church and listen to that stuff? What you need to do when you go to church is to hear a man who has a message — “thus saith the Lord” — and this is addressed to you. And that is why the attendance in these churches is dying and these great denominations are beginning to die. It is tragic. What we need is a rebirth of expository preaching, “thus saith the Lord.” ”

    Just happened upon that quote from W.A. Criswell in 1995.

  17. Jean says:

    Well, there we have it.

    Everstudy at #15 just declared God wrong. Or perhaps he is what in the OT they called a seer.

  18. Descended says:

    “Help us to do so in a manner that does not distract from You and Your Gospel.”

    Amen and amen!

  19. em ... again says:

    #15 & 17 when our Lord said the peacemakers are blessed, i don’t think He was thinking of international politics… dunno, tho… do i 🙂

  20. Jean says:

    “#15 & 17 when our Lord said the peacemakers are blessed, i don’t think He was thinking of international politics…”

    No, of course He wasn’t. Christianity is solely for your heart. God forbid it should sneak out and manifest itself to the world.

  21. em ... again says:

    #20 – ah, come on … Christianity IS solely a One on one … the result does manifest itself to the world … otherwise, we are a topic for the conspiracy theorists …?… oh wait, you’re speaking of a Christian nation, perhaps? 🙂

  22. Jean says:

    “Christianity IS solely a One on one”

    Not according to Jesus.

    Example:

    “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

  23. Lil' Paul says:

    Come on…
    Why is Greg Laurie not entitled to an opinion?
    It’s not the end of the world that he disagreed with the Iran deal.
    Why is it a “Partisan dig” to not agree with a decision that was made by President Obama?

    You opened the article with a comment about his eschatology. Again, why are we not allowing for opinion?
    Granted in the video he did not expound on “IRAN” and end times prophecy but if you did a quick google search you would know Iran was called PERSIA until 1935.
    Now of course we do find Persia discussed in Ezek 38.

    At the tail of the video Greg announced the upcoming NDOP.
    It’s a fact that the NDOP was NOT held in the White House for 8 years.
    The fact that POTUS had all these Christian leaders in the White House, asking for their help is significant.

    This article is more CLICK BAIT than something that rightly represents a faithful minister of the Gospel.

  24. Kevin H says:

    Lil’ Paul,

    First of all, this article has nothing at all to do with “click bait”, so you can take back that accusation. I write only because I gain some satisfaction in doing so and apparently others sometimes find value in it. I could care less if the article doesn’t get even a single click. And Michael has no idea what I’m writing about until he receives my article shortly before posting so he also has nothing to do with trying to drum up clicks.

    Now with that out of the way, your complaints about the article show a lack of comprehension as to what the article was about. Of course Greg Laurie is entitled to his opinions. If you noticed, I even agreed with some of them.

    The point of the article was is in showing discretion and wisdom as to when and how to express those opinions when it comes to politics, especially partisan politics, with a similar but lesser focus of the same on eschatology. This is where segments of evangelicalism, including Laurie’s example here, often fail.

  25. em ... again says:

    Paul, i think we’re just dancing here 🙂

    i said, ” the result does manifest itself to the world ” and then…

    you said (that Jesus said) “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

    if that isn’t Christianity at work in a person and then manifesting itself to world, what is it?

    i’m all parsed out for the day, thank you for your answers and …
    God keep

  26. em ... again says:

    Paul?… sorry bout that, Jean…
    i have an uncle named Paul and a daughter named Jeanne… but i think i am just dealing with an annoying computer that desperately needs a good debugging … or my brain does

  27. Kevin H says:

    Jean,

    I don’t want to belabor the point as it was not the focus of my article, but I did want to comment once on the issue of the avoidance of military force that was brought up. Scripture does tell us that a couple of the roles of the government are to serve its citizenry and to bear the sword to punish evildoers. It is not explicit as to the specifics on this.

    I would think our default mode should be to attain peace. However, I think it is a reasonable interpretation that there may be times that the government could and maybe even should bear the sword in order to protect and achieve what is the most feasible level of peace in the end. Christian opinions can vary on this.

  28. Kevin H says:

    Michael, I’ve had a comment disappear here that had followed Em’s last two comments. I know you’ve been cleaning out some bogus comments and maybe mine got swept up with them.

    Or maybe you thought my comment was bogus, too. 🙂

  29. Descended says:

    So going on about this again but seeking inside info:

    Speaking of Greg Laurie, American Civil Religion, and the Mega successful Mega Church Model – how influenced by Peter Sticker was Chuck Smith? According to Leadership Network he was heavily influenced. Not hard to see the similarities, but anyone have any better insight?

  30. Descended says:

    Goodness gracious

    Peter Drucker! Silly Android…

  31. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Descended – I think you are confusing Chuck Smith with Rick Warren.
    Rick Warren was heavily influenced by Peter Drucker.

  32. Papias says:

    Its somewhat natural to see Greg relate current events to fulfillment in Bible prophecy. He’s addressing the most common question by his followers by doing so – “Are we in the end times/What does Iran and NK mean for the Rapture and End Times?

    But does he cause the question to be asked in the first place or does he merely address it? Asked another way – if Greg didn’t answer the question would it be asked in the first place? Is it just another hook for him to use these events to get people to support his ministry?

    And on that note, is it me or has Greg become more self-promoting of late? My feed has been full of Greg’s being in DC as a guest of the for NPD…

  33. Re# 32, I too have noticed Greg doing a lot of social media promo lately. I can’t imagine posting video of myself on fancy vacations, dining out in fine restaurants and hob-nobbing. To me it just seems a bit tone deaf.

    In fact, quite a few people (well-known or not) have taken to turning the camera on themselves and (trying to) tell me what they think about this and that. Which I find a bit wearisome.

    So when Greg’s video clip about N. Korea came up last week, I really had no interest to hear what he had to say. It’s just too old-school Hal Lindsey for me….picking up on the latest global crisis and using to figure how it fits in the apocalyptic puzzle.

  34. Michael says:

    Lil Paul,

    Nothing defines clickbait any better than the constant attempts to link the news with the Second Coming.

    Yes, Greg is entitled to his opinion…so am I.

    Kevin expressed my opinion much more graciously than I would myself.

    I get that Greg has to fill another stadium…but what you draw them with is what you have to keep them with.

    In this case, that means more end times speculations…until Christ really does come back and ends this foolishness.

  35. Descended says:

    MLD , thx for the response

    This is what Leadership Network says, Drucker and Bufort’s collaboration:

    “If you’ve ever used the words decentralization, knowledge worker, management by objectives, or privatization, you’ve been influenced by Peter Drucker, who coined all of them – and more. In the church world, if your ministry has been impacted by Rick Warren and Saddleback Church, Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel, or Bill Hybels and Willow Creek Church, then you’ve also been influenced by Drucker, who developed a significant mentoring relationship with each of these leaders and organizations.”

    Is this a closely guarded secret or something amongst the Clergy at Calvary?

  36. Michael says:

    Chuck Smith was not only not influenced by Drucker,he was a harsh critic.

    This has never been a secret of any kind and is easily proven by Smith’s own writings on the subject.

  37. Kevin H says:

    I will opine on one more thing. I had not seen the second video (where Laurie talks about his trip to the White House for the NDOP) until Michael posted it with my article.

    I remember when this Faith Advisory Board, which includes many well know evangelical pastors and leaders, was formed during the Trump campaign. It was trumpeted as this key group of Christian leaders who would be advising and influencing Trump. I saw it used quite often as a significant justification for why Christians should vote for Trump.

    But in this video, Laurie gives the impression that this invitation to the NDOP events at the White House was the first time he had any real contact with the White House and the Trump administration. And that it was the first time that this Faith Advisory Board was actually getting together. This being well after we were told about this group that was supposedly advising Trump.

    On top of that, from Laurie’s description of the event, he gives the impression that there was a whole lot more wining and dining going on than there was any “faith advising”. At the very least, the wining and dining is what Laurie seemed enthusiastic to talk about.

    Things that make you go, hmmmm…….

  38. Michael says:

    Kevin H,

    Let’s consider ourselves fortunate that people like Paula White and Cindy Jacobs are only there to eat and suck up to power.

    These are the last people I want advising anyone…

  39. Descended says:

    Michael thx

    I’m a tad obtuse

    You are saying Smith was influenced by, benefited from Drucker, but harshly criticised him?

    Or influenced by him meaning he didn’t adhere to the Drucker Model and fought it?

  40. Michael says:

    Descended,

    Chuck Smith had no use whatsoever for Drucker, Wagner, and the church growth movement.

    None.

    Nada.

    Zilch.

    I know some pastors who were involved and it didn’t affect doctrine and practice one iota.

    Much ado about nothing…

  41. Descended says:

    Okay, thx for your time, Michael

  42. Michael says:

    Peter Drucker is dead.
    Pete Wagner is dead.
    Chuck Smith is dead.

    The fad passed long ago.

    With all the issues in the church and in this country, you’d think people would have legitimate things to worry about…

  43. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    the 2 SoCal ministries affected and corrupted by Drucker were Robert Schuller and Rick Warren. I am pretty sure he sat on the boards of both.

  44. Everstudy says:

    #17 “Well, there we have it.

    Everstudy at #15 just declared God wrong. Or perhaps he is what in the OT they called a seer.”

    Ouch.

    I was just trying to point out that a non-military solution could be a disaster, or could end in a disaster.

    Never mentioned or, hopefully, implied, that one should not strive for peace.

  45. Descended says:

    MLD

    I just wanted to know what you guys thought about those claims about CS by Leadership Network. Thanks.

    Michael, thx again.

  46. Josh the Baptist says:

    Don’t worry Everstudy, when Jean perceives that someones is disagreeing with him, he tends to jump straight into condemnation. Par for the course. You are in good company.

  47. Lil' Paul says:

    hey y’all its lil’ Paul,

    Ok…
    Pineapple…
    “I too have noticed Greg doing a lot of social media promo lately. I can’t imagine posting video of myself on fancy vacations, dining out in fine restaurants and hob-nobbing. To me it just seems a bit tone deaf”

    -What are you in reference too?
    I follow his social media and have yet to see “fancy vacations, dining out in fine restaurants and hob-nobbing” -STRAW MAN
    -“alot of social media promo lately”…haha really
    He has been active for years and I am one of many, who are thankful for his and the TENS of THOUSANDS of other pastors & ministries, who have had a good influence on social media.

    Kevin H.
    You last comment…”I will opine on one more thing”

    What are you even whining about??
    Pastor Greg has been a faithful pastor and shepherd for over 45 years to the same church in Southern California.
    It was only just recently, that Pastor Greg with 40 others were invited to the White House to be apart of an advisory board. Like pastor Greg mentioned in the video, this is similar to Joseph or Daniel advising the rulers of their day.What a great opportunity!!

    I guarantee you, if Pastor Greg was given the opportunity, he WOULD declare Biblical truth and confidently preach the gospel, even to the POTUS himself. (Just like I think some of the other individuals on the advisory board would do)

    Greg in one of the videos mentioned that he was at the dinner table with VP Pence and had a great discussion with him. Now I don’t expect Pastor Greg to divulge what was discussed that night but I am thankful he had a little fun in describing the occasion and the nature of the invitation.

    Question Kevin:
    If the POTUS would have extended this same invitation to you, would you have gone?

    Well if would have gone, I am sure you would have taken advantage of the opportunities extended to you, by being a light and witness for Christ. Additionally, if you had attended I would expect you to be discreet with what was discussed and yet kind enough to humor silly questions that people would have asked you about your visit….Like, What was the POTUS like? What did the WH look like? What did you have for dinner? Did you have to go through security? Who all was there? ect..

    You made a mountain out of a mole hill

    lastly Michael,
    1st
    “Nothing defines clickbait than attempts to link news and second coming”

    Again you have different views of eschatology… let it go

    P.S. hahaha that clickbait comment got ya!!
    I still think you used Pastor Greg Laurie’s name as a coat tail, in order get a few more clicks on your site. Smooth.

    2nd
    “I get that Greg has to fill another stadium…but what you draw them with is what you have to keep them with.”

    And what is he drawing them with??
    I recently heard stats for the crusade attendance, it turns out 80% of those who attend are brought by a friend or family member. People bringing people to hear the gospel, sounds pretty legit to me.

    Ya’ll love to criticize Greg Laurie and the proclamation evangelism method that his ministry uses. At the end of the day your criticizing a method to evangelism…what method do you use?

    When is the last time any of you shared your faith?

    We are surrounded by people who don’t know God…Thankfully, Pastor Greg Laurie has a passion for the lost and desires to see them come to know Jesus in a life changing way, DO YOU?

    Something to ponder

  48. John 20:29 says:

    #48 – i’ve heard Greg Laurie’s virtues appreciated here over the years… he is a servant of God
    what gets folks up in arms here is the whole end times drama and affection for Trump ballyhoo coming out of the evangelicals all over…
    this site is doing a good work in holding churches and their leaders feet to the fire…
    it’s not my website, but when posting on the Phoenix Preacher, i’d say, try to defend your cause and your people with respect for the host here because….
    if we really were in the end times, there would be a crying need for such effort as is put forth here
    IMHO, speaking as an old time evangelical

  49. Descended says:

    Lil Paul

    save the core doctrines and the belief in the need for the gospel to reach the ears of the lost, Michael and I disagree on nearly everything. I think I make his skin crawl, personally.

    However, I look down at the map of visitors and I see 43 people are perusing the site. 43. Michael’s been at this for, how long, Michael?
    Clickbait is not his thing.

    You imply that many here do not share their faith as often GL does. You also infer the intents of his heart, and by implication the intents of ours. I hope you are mistaken. I pray you are more mistaken everyday about these folk. Do you?

    I have spent a lot of internet time pissing off a lot of people I figured needed to hear the hard truth according to my worldview and doctrine. I have done the copycat Jacob Prasch thing (whom I respect greatly, though he isn’t nice nor perfect) and gained no inroads to apply balm to anyone’s wounds.

    I was recently jettisoned from a Calvary Chapel for speaking truth to the Pastor and elders concerning ethical practices and their on of laying hands on a false teacher. A very false teacher. I want even seeking his removal.

    However, it wasn’t quite in the way Jesus prescribed (too many involved too soon) and so wasn’t wasn’t patient, wasn’t loving. It made no difference, got ugly, and now there is forgiveness that needs to take place on both ends. I don’t think God wanted me there anymore, but it didn’t have to come to blows, sts.

    I am being led by the Spirit to learn how to disagree in love, to rebuke in love, to learn from others I may never agree with (from this perspective I pray I never agree on many things with many of the ecumenists here, Greg Laurie being one imo) in love and to, speaking for myself, shut the Hell up in love. This all will ultimately hone the gospel God graciously uses me to spill to others.

    I hope you will take some advice, and approach others with the benefit of the doubt. I am trying. Greg certainly is given the benefit of the doubt.

  50. Descended says:

    Correction

    …was NOT seeking his removal…

  51. Pineapple Head says:

    Lil Paul,

    I am a Greg fan, having followed since the Costa Mesa days. I like much of what he does. But his social media is full of pics and videos from various trips and such. I’m not making that up. I’m not even against using social media for connection. But I think it comes off a bit showy to share clips from Italy, Hawaii and such. But I’m not losing sleep over it. Just my two bits. It may be because I’ve lived out of California for many years.

  52. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “what gets folks up in arms here is the whole end times drama and affection for Trump ballyhoo ”

    I find his decision theology to be more offensive than his end times stuff – and that’s saying a lot.

  53. Josh the Baptist says:

    I find his shirt most offensive.

  54. Michael says:

    Lil Paul…

    Let’s get a couple of things straight.

    This site doesn’t use clickbait.

    Whether I do 50,000 people in an hour or I do our normal 2500-3000 a day, I get paid the same.

    Nothing.

    Second, you need to walk down the hall and ask Greg about me.

    That’s about all I’m going to say…for now.

  55. Kevin H says:

    Lil’ Paul,

    Once again you completely miss the point of what I wrote.

    First of all, making one comment about Laurie’s description of the NDOP event is hardly making a mountain out of a mole hill. So you can once again take back an unsubstantiated accusation.

    Second, and most importantly is the point you miss. My expressed concern is not about Laurie going to the White House. It has to do with a Faith Advisory Board that was created when Trump was campaigning and was significantly promoted by many as a big reason to vote for Trump. The impression was given as is this was a regularly active board starting during the campaign. Only now, from Laurie’s own description, this apparently Board didn’t get together for the first time until 6 months after the election. And the get together, from Laurie’s own description seemed to have a stronger emphasis on wining and dining than it did on advising. The concern is that the “Faith Advisory Board” has been used much more as a political propaganda tool than any real function of significance.

    Third, your continued false accusation of Micael for using Laurie as click bait further shows your lack of comprehension (or else your choice to knowingly make false charges). Again, I wrote this article and Michael had nothing to do with it. He merely posted what I wrote, just like he has for every other article I have written.

    Fourth, your contrived guilt trip for us is not going to play here. It is a classic deflection technique to try to distract from the issue at hand by trying to find some unrelated issue wrong with the opposition. Not going to play that game.

    Fifth and lastly, to answer your question, yes, I would have gone to the White House had I been invited. But that doesn’t have anything to do with the point I made. It is irrelevant to the issue.

  56. Kevin H says:

    Please excuse the typos in my last post. Typing long replies on a phone doesn’t always work so well.

  57. Michael says:

    Kevin H,

    My guess is that we’ll not hear any more from ‘Paul”…I figured out who he is and where he works…and I doubt that his boss is going to be very happy about his little tirade here.

  58. Kevin H says:

    Well then, maybe Greg, er, I mean his boss, can get “Paul” some reading comprehension classes.

  59. Michael says:

    Let’s hope so… 🙂

  60. John 20:29 says:

    #53 – decision theology? you know what?
    the foolishness of preaching?
    gotta say…
    it doesn’t matter if 90% or 99.9% of those who respond are just playing a game with their minds – seeing what happens,’ if i do this thing’ – there is that one person out there who is suddenly stirred and wondering how to connect, how to declare that he believes and he needs to declare that and he doesn’t know who to, or where or even how to… that walk down front to talk to a listening ear, to be affirmed and welcomed into the family will take – a permanent condition – God can (& does) handle it from there…
    the biggest blessing of my life was going from death into life by making a decision that, not only was there a God, but He was worthy to be God and He was calling me out of the pew in that big old Presbyterian church long years ago to let a couple thousand people see that i believed… there was no doubt that i’d gone from death to life, but that’s a long, often repeated story where sheep gather – some gatherings anyway

  61. Alex says:

    “Thankfully, Pastor Greg Laurie has a passion for the lost and desires to see them come to know Jesus in a life changing way, DO YOU?”

    Yes, Michael does. He privately and publicly spoke the Gospel to me and was instrumental (with a couple other pastors and friends) of keeping me from going Atheist/Agnostic in my darkest hours. It was more his staying in relationship and not giving up on me than anything else. It’s one thing to say the words, it’s another thing to live them out in relationship. Michael preaches the Gospel, just to a different Group than Greg does. And, Michael likes Greg Laurie, he’s spoken highly of him many times and defended Greg when I was blasting at him in the past on my old blog.

  62. Alex says:

    Lil’ Paul, I’m very conservative and agree with Greg’s politics, big time. I disagreed strongly with the Iran deal and I think Obama achieved success in two things only: 1. Supplanting Jimmy Carter as the worst president in US history and 2. Obama was the best Gun Salesman of all-time. Other than those two things, he was terrible, IMO.

    But, Michael has a different take politically and it’s not wrong for him to express that. I thought his piece about Greg was pretty mild and as I mentioned in my last comment, I’ve read Michael’s stuff and known him for many years now, and he has always expressed a high opinion of Greg Laurie. Always. So, I wouldn’t let a little political disagreement and a little criticism get you too upset.

  63. Alex says:

    Plus, I think Kevin wrote the article LOL.

    Regardless, it’s pretty polite criticism. I hope you can’t find the stuff I wrote in the past LOL. Yikes!

  64. Descended says:

    Anyone familiar with authors Robert Bellah or Claes Ryn?

  65. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em @ your #61 = ” there is that one person out there who is suddenly stirred and wondering how to connect, ”

    That is not the proper description of decision theology. Decision Theology pretty much states that you are saved by your actual decision. That Jesus has done his part and now it is time for you to do your part. Make the darn decision FOR Jesus!

    Why do you think end times became such a big part of this type of theology? To scare people into making a decision. Greg Laurie is a child of Charles Finney and his teaching that you must manipulate the person’s mind and emotions until they make the right decision. This is why Greg will continually call for people to come down front – it is why the first 25% of the people going forward are Harvest Crusade volunteers priming the pump – this the reason Greg will have Crystal Lewis sing “Just as I am” 11 times – it is the reason that Billy Graham, using the same techniques 30 years earlier would say “the busses will wait for you”. (heck, his radio show was called the Hour of Decision) – but this is also the reason that statistics say only 5% of those going forward end up in church over any length of time. It is also the reason that the rate of “rededications (which account for 2/3rds of the responding crowds) and rebaptisms are so high.

    Now, more people have heard the gospel from Greg Laurie than have heard it from me – that is for sure … and that is to my shame. But remember, at each Crusade, the applause at the end always goes to the individuals for their fine choice – their decision. So yes, I do find Greg’s decision theology to be more troubling than his end times talks.

  66. Kevin H says:

    Michael @ your #39,

    https://heatst.com/politics/the-presidents-pastor-paula-white-has-connections-and-power-but-where-does-she-get-her-money/

    While this may have been Greg Laurie’s first trip to the White House to do any kind of ‘advising”, it would unfortunately seem that Paula White is regularly in Trump’s ear.

    I’ll tell you what, I would much rather have Laurie regularly advising the President than this heretical, scandalous charlatan.

  67. Jean says:

    What strikes me as sort of weird about this thread is the whole idea of a panel or board of “spiritual advisors.” Wouldn’t Laurie be compelled as a Christian, who presumably is generally orthodox, to warn Trump against listening to the likes of Paula White, as well as any other religions whom might be lobbing for Trump’s ear?

    Wouldn’t Laurie’s chief (and perhaps only) concern be the state of Trump’s soul? What else of a legitimate nature would he be doing? Do you do that in a board format, or is that a matter for private confession and absolution?

  68. Descended says:

    Someone alluded Greg Laurie’s triple to that of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel had massive administrative responsibilities and was the sole confidant of Good King Nebbie.

    This is not Laurie’s role, and so I must agree with Kevin and Jean. Imo it is an interfaith endeavour, and Greg did as he was told and shut his mouth, said nice things as the other false prophets spoke. If only he was the lone voice of the Word of the Lord, if only he had gotten himself kicked out, disinvited, for speaking truth in Love amongst the amalgamation of lies!

    May we all be the one about whom God says, “I’ve got a guy for that”.

  69. Kevin H says:

    Jean,

    I would think that any spiritual advisor to a president would first and foremost be concerned with their soul. Beyond that, I would think it would be reasonable that the advisor could encourage the president to consider mercy and righteousness and justice when doing their job. I would not want the advisor telling the president exactly how to make public policy or how to handle international negotiations as that would be beyond their realm of expertise, but rather helping the president to consider those good attributes when doing so.

    Now where things certainly can get muddied is when you have such a Faith Advisory Board with all kinds of different people on it. At the very least, I think all of the people on this supposed board of Trump’s claim the Christian faith as opposed to anyone from a different religion (Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.). They may even all be people who one way or another fall under an Evangelical classification. But even at that, there are clear heretics and charlatans in this group.

    From Laurie’s description and other accounts, it certainly would not seem like this “Board” acts like any kind of real board that gets together to meet and discuss issues and make decisions and give unified advice. Rather it seems like it’s a random group of individuals who have significantly varying levels of participation in “advising” the President.

    So Laurie and others may have absolutely nothing to do with what Paula White and others in the group are doing in giving advisement. Of course, the question then becomes whether one should allow their name to be used to help give legitimacy to a faux board that includes heretics and charlatans.

  70. em ... again says:

    #66 – i understand “decision theology” and today’s manipulation of the crowd – is that necessary? dunno – is it wrong? i don’t think so, even tho some souls feel manipulated because they “went forward” and got over it later on – as i said, there is that person whom Jesus was calling out, who responded and walked on with Christ on whatever path that turns out to be
    is it necessary to walk the aisle to find salvation? well, considering history, it is not even logical… but…
    Evangelists, go on goading, preaching and challenging the sinner to make that decision, please IMHO
    i believe that everyone who is part of the Church, that assembly that Jesus calls His church, at some point in their lives made a decision to believe, confess in their own heart that Jesus IS the Lord and Savior, man’s only hope and then follow Him as such… even baptized babies, however subtle the turning point may have been… we differ here, i know

  71. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    em,
    Try this – one cannot confess Jesus as Lord unless one is already saved.
    Also, since my salvation depends on my decision, how about later when I don’t feel I was sincere enough when I made that decision – then doubt creeps in because my salvation was up to me to complete.

    Think of the sinners prayer – which is the only reason for the altarless altar call – when complete the preacher says “if you said this prayer, and were sincere (really meant it) then you are saved (you listen they actually say this) and then you get a welcome to the family.

    There is no offer – the word of God converts.

  72. em ... again says:

    Spiritual advisor is a “worldly term” in the context of worldly affairs, isn’t it?
    i’m not sure that the likes of Greg Laurie and other Christians in prominent positions, when being recognized by the President et al as representatives of a segment of the population called the Church are there to evangelize – might be, but right now i’m thinking of our Lord’s example, He didn’t promote salvation or His role everywhere He went to everyone He met…
    however, if the White House gives the Church a voice and those guys (they look a little insignificant in the post above) applaud false teachers at the event – even limply and politely… well, God help them
    just sayin … again

  73. em ... again says:

    MLD, “the word of God converts” yes, it does… but one does chose – a sheep hears the shepherds voice, knows who’s calling and follows… we see that work of conversion a little differently – well a lot differently, i guess…
    yours are the pristine sheep with the wool that has never been stained and my crowd are the rowdies with the broken legs that Jesus went out with His crook, grabbed from the ditch by the neck and brought home to the fold – whiter than snow now, too, we’re in there with all those unsullied baptized babies LOL

  74. Duane Arnold says:

    Let us be plain… this “Faith Advisory Board” is:

    1. Not about Faith
    2. It is not giving advice to Mr. Trump
    3. And does not function as a board with mutual accountability

    It’s sole purpose is window dressing for Mr. Trump, pure and simple.

  75. Kevin H says:

    Duane,

    You’re more succinct than me. 🙂

  76. JoelG says:

    “The Word of God converts”

    This is true. When a doctor tells a cancer patient they have been healed of cancer, he doesn’t ask them to choose to accept the good news. He tells them and they live accordingly in light of it. I’ve come to see the Gospel the same way. It’s true, go in peace.

  77. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Joel has it.
    Also, I don’t think we ever see in scripture Jesus cajole someone into follow him. His words turn the people into followers. We he called Matthew and them – just his words “follow me” did the trick. They get up at once and follow.

    It seems that the ones who try to decide get left behind.

  78. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    em, “MLD, “the word of God converts” yes, it does… but one does chose –”

    Think about it – if the word of God does actually convert – what is there to choose? You are converted.

    About the sheep – actually Jesus must go out, grab the sheep, put the sheep on his shoulders and carry it into the safe haven – the sheep doesn’t even know he is lost.

  79. Duane Arnold says:

    #76 Kevin

    And if Laurie would wish to give advice to Mr. Trump, he could be succinct as well… “Repent”.

  80. Descended says:

    Duane

    What’s interesting to me about the NDOP, Trump’s attentions to the NAR, and the announcement about the Johnson Amendment is it actually places the state and it’s propaganda right back in the pulpit. Instead of commercialized propaganda from the mainstream media, I think we may now be hitting it from the pulpit.

  81. Descended says:

    Correction,

    hearing it from the pulpit,

    but “hitting it” works in so many ways these days as well.

  82. Duane Arnold says:

    #81

    Absolutely…

  83. em ... again says:

    em, “MLD, “the word of God converts” yes, it does… but one does chose –”

    Think about it – if the word of God does actually convert – what is there to choose? You are converted.”

    poor word choice on my part… i should have said that one chooses to respond or just that one responds… is there a choice? i think there is always the option, otherwise there’d be justification for calling us “robots” …
    did Mrs. MLD choose to respond when you noticed her or could she just not help herself? … there are probably lots of shading to how each person finally finds themselves following Christ (trying to avoid “born again” – even tho, i firmly believe that is true also 🙂 )
    that said, there is justification in saying that no sheep of Jesus’ is ever not retrieved/saved, so just as we know His voice, He knows which sheep are His and i’m content to let you see it the Lutheran way, but…
    on the other hand, i won’t say that the Lutheran way is infallible – i don’t think any of us, from the early Church Fathers on, have the sum of the Faith wrapped and tied…
    the essentials as we call them? i’d suspect we all have those understood in a way that is acceptable to our Lord, even if not to each other
    God keep

  84. Descended says:

    “What have you made? Decisions! As easily as one makes a decision to follow Christ, they can just as easily decide not to follow him”.
    David Nathan

  85. em ... again says:

    Descended, David Nathan is correct… unless one is answering their Shepherd’s voice – deciding to declare it at that evangelist’s call to do so …. 🙂

  86. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    em, I think what you are missing isn’t whether someone responds – but the fact that the preacher is convinced that the person’s mind and emotions must be manipulated and that he will do the manipulating at any cost to reach an end. This was very much what Charles Finney taught – that those tactics must be used or the unbeliever is too deep to come out by himself.
    We saw this at least in the 70s and 80s when the end times were preached to the “seeker”crowds. You were told to bring an unsaved friend to the Sunday Night service that always had something to do about prophecy and end times. The thought being you can’t hook the uninitiated with just Jesus talk.

    In Lutheran circles, the word is preached and left to do it’s work – no appeal, no offer.

  87. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “did Mrs. MLD choose to respond when you noticed her or could she just not help herself?”

    She couldn’t help herself is the story I tell 🙂

    We were at the beach with mutual friends, she was 16 and I was a high school senior football player – she didn’t stand a chance .

    I don’t listen when she tells the story. 🙂

  88. Kevin H says:

    I could help Lil’ Paul make contact with the author if he would so like. 🙂

  89. Michael says:

    Kevin,

    I suspect he’s deleted this bookmark… 🙂

  90. Jean says:

    As we approach Ascension Sunday, all Christians might reflect on the One to whom all authority in heaven and on earth has been given. Who right now is ruling. He is the only One who deserves a bended knee.

  91. em ... again says:

    MLD… if what you object to is a theory that one person using his own intellect can convince another person to accept Christ, then we are in agreement…

    side issue pontification follows…
    i am a firm believer that young love can last because i’ve seen quite a few like you two making it thru life committed to each other – i think we need discernment when we tell young people full of raging hormones that they are too young to fall in love and marry – not many blessings greater than a life partner and, yes, i’ve been known to cry at weddings
    (i’ll bet you and Mrs. MLD were a knock out couple as teenagers )

  92. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em,
    “MLD… if what you object to is a theory that one person using his own intellect can convince another person to accept Christ, then we are in agreement…”

    It’s not a theory – it is actual practice in most evangelical churches – a plea at minimum to consent – but usually full blown “make a decision or perish.”
    My only point is that decision theology is a much larger problem in the church today that preaching on end times or politics.

  93. em ... again says:

    ” decision theology is a much larger problem in the church today that preaching on end times or politics.” … why?
    it is what follows that gums up the works… the tendency churches have to pander to their lowest common denominator to keep their head-count going up – IMHO

    that said, i can concur by experience that decision theology won’t make one a Christian – a real one…
    when i was about 11, the dear mother of a friend of mine asked me to help her do dishes…
    while i manned the dish towel she explained to me that the time had come for me to accept Christ and that, if i did not do so right at that moment, as she placed the proposition before me to choose (and she was adamant), i would be forever damned as there was never a second chance once one rejects Christ… she was sincere, but so was i 🙂 and i said that i couldn’t do that, but i’d think on it… she said that was too bad as i’d just had my only chance… now that could have made me a God hater for life, i guess… but God does know His own and will eventually get you, but on His own timetable… IMNSHO – again

  94. David H says:

    For me, Greg Laurie and the rest of this “Spiritual Advisory Board” are selling out. It looks like political and economic expedency trump the Gospel. I’m wondering if this the last gasp of dying breath for the old culture warriors.

    These men seem to be getting played by Trump. They are at the core of the old guard of culture warriors, and Trump may be using them to keep the fence around the Evangelical base. And, these guys are, on the other end, using Trump to regain a beachhead in the war. So it’s a two way street.

    Rant over

  95. bob1 says:

    96

    Yes.

    They’re the court evangelicals. Many pagans have more moral sense than they do.

    They have their reward.

    http://religionnews.com/2017/05/12/the-evangelical-courtiers-who-kneel-before-the-presidents-feet/

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