Kevin’s Conversations: What About Healing?

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69 Responses

  1. Jean says:

    Good topic to discuss.

  2. Michael says:

    I believe God still heals the way that God answers all other prayer…it happens,but without rhyme,reason, or pattern.

    If it is “included in the atonement” than evidently the atonement hasn’t been applied to me…

  3. Michael says:

    Some are you are aware that both my godsons spent three months in Germany being treated for Lyme disease.
    The older boys case was well advanced and T’s was affecting not only his body,but his mind.
    When their mother told me what the treatments were I lost it…seemed like pure quackery of the highest order…ridiculous stuff at a premium cost.
    It was all alternative and naturopathic treatments.
    They’re healed.
    Completely.
    Beats hell out of me…

  4. Michael says:

    Some people very close to me decided after years to attend a church.
    They called me all excited about it.
    It’s a renewal church.
    I’m not excited about it.
    I want to burn the place down.
    I’m very ecumenical as long as it stays online…

  5. Jean says:

    What is a “renewal church”?

  6. Michael says:

    A part of the renewal movement that came out of the “Toronto Blessing”.
    Here on the West Coast it is exemplified in Bethel Church out of Redding, which I pray imprecatory prayers over regularly.
    They are big on “manifestations” of the Holy Spirit, divine healing, prophecy, and some very aberrant theology.
    They have “apostles” and “prophets” among them.
    It’s finally getting a hold here and in the old days we could fix that…

  7. Michael says:

    Jean,

    Our Babylon’s Dread is a leading light of the movement, though I find him sane and educated.
    I still do not know whey he holds this company..

    It is very experiential and places little value on doctrine…

  8. Xenia says:

    The Orthodox church is very experiential, too. We also have prophets, apostles (those in apostolic succession, that is), healings, visions, miraculous icons, wonder-working Saints, etc. I love all these things and this is why I have said here a few times that if I couldn’t be Orthodox my next choice would probably be Pentecostal.

  9. Xenia says:

    We don’t have glossolalia, however,

  10. Michael says:

    I was Pentecostal.

    Most of what was claimed to be supernatural was flesh, hokum, and self indulgent nonsense.

    God does still move in mysterious ways…but not on command and not necessarily in places that claim it as dogma.

  11. Paige says:

    Thanks Jean. I am “one of those people” who is totally into “alternative” (aka ‘historical’) medicine. Conventional or western medicine is excellent for trauma, necessary surgeries, acute illness, disease or injury. Western medicine tends to not be effective for chronic and systemic illnesses, such as Lyme disease.

    I am a cancer survivor. During the course of my foray into the world of cancer medicine, I learned some extremely disturbing things about conventional cancer ‘treatments’, actual statistics of survival and the fact that all chemo medications and radiation themselves are known carcinogens.

    I ended up ‘going alternative” . Conventional medicine gave me 2 years life expectancy. I’m 8 years since diagnosis now.
    That experience and numerous others put me on ‘that side’ of the argument.
    However, if I broke my leg, was in an accident, had a heart attack, etc… I would go to a conventional practitioner, ER, etc.

    Those of us who choose ‘alternative’ generally do so at our own expense, tho we have insurance. “Alternative” medicine assumes that the body is ‘fearfully and wonderfully made” and is capable of restoring health, given the proper tools.

    Love Michael’s comment about healing “I believe God still heals the way that God answers all other prayer‚Ķit happens,but without rhyme,reason, or pattern.”
    Exactly. Pretty random, or so it seems…. but I always pray, knowing God is able…

    I’m a massage therapist. I definitely see emotional issues played out in the body. We’ve all heard statements like “my boss is a pain in the neck” or ‘my teenager is a pain in the butt” (sciatica), “my best friend stabbed me in the back” (mid back pain), “I feel cut off at the knees” (knee pain), “I feel powerless, can’t stand on my own two feet” (foot pain)… I cannot tell you how many right shoulder issues I’ve worked with after someone has experienced a huge loss like divorce, job loss, death of loved one….. “I feel like I’ve lost my right arm”… IMO, a very large percentage of low back pain has roots in loss or grief.

    The mind and body and emotions are one organism. They physical body expresses a consistent and document able pattern of issues that coincide with emotional experiences.

  12. Paige says:

    Oops…. I apologize… Thank YOU KEVIN…. yikes…. I apologize.

  13. Cash says:

    I believe that both traditional medicine and holistic medicine are a gift from God to the human race. He can affect healing in any way He wishes, and He often does. But these methods are a part of His general mercy and grace to humanity. We must realize that though medicine does not always “heal” someone, it darn sure alleviates a lot of suffering, depending on the illness and the medicine, and that is a gift from God.

  14. Michael says:

    Paige,

    My personal opinion is also that there is a difference between doctors and healers.

    My chiropractor is a healer…and my first doctor was too.

    Took in the whole person.

    I think you are a healer…always have…

  15. Dan from Georgia says:

    My $0.02. Went to a Benny Hinn crusade once with a partially paralyzed friend. Hokey and all hogwash. Only Hinn got the attention.

    I am associated with several people who suffer various forms of mental illness. Here is what we don’t need to hear from fellow believers:

    1. You lack faith
    2. Pray harder
    3. Read your bible more
    4. Snap out of it!
    5. You have unconfessed sin.
    6. You need to hear this guy/that gal.

    These statements only bring shame and defeat to those that suffer. We who suffer are out there. What are you gonna do about us? Are you gonna love us? We may never find healing for our illness, so can you still love us? I will be traveling today so I will only have limited opportunity to engage in conversation – but I won’t engage any responses akin to those above.

  16. Michael says:

    Well said, Dan!

  17. Xenia says:

    A few months ago I was suffering from a debilitating, month-long headache. I finally went to my doctor, a “regular” (but open-minded) physician who performed a procedure that I am sure my fundamentalist friends would condemn as New Age and from the devil, but my headache instantly and completely went away and has never returned. He then put me on a unique diet that has cured my other ailments, all without medicines. I would say he is also a healer.

  18. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I had one those those guys until he retired…miracle worker.

    Lord, how I miss him…

  19. Xenia says:

    Michael, since all Orthodox services are 100 percent liturgy, their is no room for outbursts, gold-dust, being slain in the Spirit, tongue-talking, barking, rolling around, etc. Orthodox miracles are more orderly and generally take place in private, during prayer.

  20. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    If my friend had decided to join the Orthodox communion I would have been thrilled.
    Instead, they want to join the unorthodox communion and I’m beside myself…

  21. Jean says:

    What about orderly barking? ūüôā

  22. Xenia says:

    Well, I should clarify, I guess. I have no intention of every leaving Orthodoxy and I would probably get tired of a real Pentecostal church very quickly.

    However, so many churches and Christians spend all their time talking about biblical minutia, about the order of salvation, about end-times chronology, pseudo-scientific creationism, etc. I find this to be deadening. I have a fondness for churches that just want to have a direct line to God and expect Him to actually do things in their lives rather than endless discussions about theology.

  23. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well we know that God has at the very least told us how to have healing – come to the church, have the elders anoint you with oil (Del Monte is my oil of choice) and pray for you.

    Then go home.

  24. Rob Murphy says:

    I watched the documentary “Gleason” about former NFL player Steve Gleason and his family as they battle through the ravages of ALS.
    In the film, they share Steve going with his Dad to a faith healer at the onset of Steve’s ALS.
    It is the most gut wrenching and heartbreaking things I’ve ever seen. The sheer quackery that I’ve seen is a nearly insurmountable hurdle to my believing in any type of ‘miraculous’ faith healing.
    I’ve had acupuncture and all kinds of ‘non traditional’ medical treatments in my recovery from bacterial meningitis and I honestly don’t think I would ever be able to go to a ‘faith healer’ to address the lasting after effects. The thing that makes me a bit sad is that I’ve had friends and family wanting to seek faith healing and I just can’t get myself to hope with them. I don’t want my disbelief to ever dissuade them from genuine trust in God.

  25. Xenia says:

    MLD is right. This is the “orderly” way to be healed, if God is of the mind to heal you.

  26. Kevin H says:

    Thanks for the input so far guys. As you can tell from the article, I have a lot more questions than answers to give on the subject.

  27. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Rob,
    If only the Bible told us to go to a ‘faith’ healer. But He didn’t and we shouldn’t.

    It is so funny, that people think that by their faith they are healed – how stupid – faith is only something that allows you to believe that God can come through on his promises – not some sort of pixie dust that descends on you.

    However, my TV defaults each night to a channel before a Daystar channel – so I need to click by the Benny Hinn show each morning to get to the news (this is what happens when you have an antenna instead of cable) – and I did see a miraculous healing – at least the results of one. The speaker formerly had brown and gray hair – this morning his hair olicles had been healed / restored to jet black. Now that is something that should be celebrated. ūüôā

  28. Kevin H says:

    I will say that much of the renewal/faith/charasimatic movement (I know there are delineations between all these terms and groups but I’m not knowledgeable enough to properly parse them) strikes me as strange at best, and evil at worst. However, it is because of people like BD and a few others I have known that prevent me from completely writing it all off.

  29. Kevin H says:

    Paige, thanks for your thoughts and explanations. There seems to be some good axioms there.

  30. Owen says:

    I find myself agreeing with Paige, and I might add a little of my own thoughts….

    I am of the belief that God created everything good, including the brain he gave to mankind. And I believe He still gives knowledge to mankind – now,how we choose to apply this knowledge does not always please God, methinks….

    I think traditional medicine and natural medicine could both be called God-given knowledge, and have both been tainted and twisted in some ways by mankind’s own fallen will. But that does not stop God from healing when He will.

    I’ll also echo Michael’s comment about the apparent randomness of it at times – I’m another who has seen healing where it just made no sense , but happened anyway. Sometimes God likes to frustrate the wise.

    It was traditional medicine that repaired my aneurysm and faulty valve. And it has been natural medicine that has helped manage the long-term after effects of having those repairs made, along with managing the normal effects of aging.

  31. Owen says:

    Kevin,

    Thanks for writing this, and well done. One area that I am still trying to understand myself is the relationship between spiritual and physical health.

    One thing I do know for myself – when my physical health has been poor, it has brought down my spiritual attitude. Still trying to understand that one.

  32. Dan from Georgia says:

    MLD, I had the unfortunate opportunity to watch Daystar for a few minutes while in FL on vacation. A few minutes I will never get back. Lots of bad theology and false preaching. And that was without Benny Hinn!

  33. Owen says:

    Dan @ #15….

    “We may never find healing for our illness, so can you still love us?”

    This is the crux of the issue, isn’t it? Leave your “healing agenda” behind and just be a safe place.

  34. Michael says:

    Owen,

    Very true that the physical debilitation creates spiritual debilitation.
    It actually was a spiritual help at first…now, not so much.

  35. Owen says:

    Oh, Michael, how I hear you….

    There are many things I used to be able to do just a few short years ago, that now are greatly restricted physically. For the first while these restrictions seemed to drive me to Him – but then I just got tired of seeking and knocking and not getting what I wanted.

    But maybe this is what He wants…… me finally at the end of my rope…..

  36. Michael says:

    Owen,

    I’m right there with you.
    I have to be very intentional about what I say and write…sometimes the darkness screams to come out.
    Days like today… ūüôā

  37. Owen says:

    ….and having just stated my #35, I went back to my study of Luther’s Commentary on the Sermon on the Mount – and immediately came across “blessed are those who mourn.”

    Luther’s take on this is that those constantly seeking to have no trouble or discomfort in this life are not among the blessed. (I would paste a portion of his words here, but Luther tends to ramble and the post would just be really long….)

    “..for they shall be comforted.”

    Hmmm…….

  38. Jean says:

    Paul wrote something similar:

    “Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God‚Äôs love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.”

    I think where Christians get into bad theology is when they try to choose their crosses to bear or self impose suffering in an attempt to identify with Christ.

  39. The Dude says:

    I was saved through the Pentecostal-Charismatic renewal movement in the early 1980’s.Only when I started to really study the bible did I see how off the wall most of it was.Sadly I’ve discovered in American Christianity kool-laid comes in a variety of flavors.

  40. Jean says:

    Jesus had different futures planned for his apostles Peter and John. They both had the same destination though.

  41. Owen says:

    Jean,

    Yep, just came across that passage in the study.

    Not that it’s funny, but I kind of chuckle at Christians who self-impose suffering – what, like they can’t find enough ready-made suffering already??

  42. Dan from Georgia says:

    Owen, that is SO true! And it’s why so many in the church are silent about their suffering…there are very few safe people in the church when it comes to mental illness.

  43. Jean says:

    I would like everyone to reflect on this passage:

    “Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.” (Heb 2:14-15)

    This is a passage that has come to mind off and on but regularly for the past couple years. The way I read it, through Christ’s atonement and His resurrection, the power of death has been broken and Christians should not fear death, because we have an eternal inheritance in Christ. It is the fear of death that causes so much sin and death in the world as people try to avoid the inevitable by every means possible. But Christians should be at peace.

    However, I see Christians (at least in America) just as afraid of death and clinging to their lives as everyone else. I’m not against healthcare and healthy living, but at the same time, death isn’t the end of the world.

  44. ( |o )====::: says:

    Medical Science + Compassion + Empathy = Divinely Guided Healing

  45. Owen says:

    Well said, Jean, and thank you for the reflection.

    ” I‚Äôm not against healthcare and healthy living, but at the same time, death isn‚Äôt the end of the world”

    – in fact, death for us is the beginning of a new life.

    We do, however, somehow have an innate fear of death. The kind of thing that keeps us from doing things like driving ourselves off the road, jumping off a building, etc…

    But I think you’re talking about the apparent drive to extend our health, regardless of the fact that our bodies are naturally decaying.

  46. Jean says:

    “We do, however, somehow have an innate fear of death. The kind of thing that keeps us from doing things like driving ourselves off the road, jumping off a building, etc‚Ķ

    But I think you‚Äôre talking about the apparent drive to extend our health, regardless of the fact that our bodies are naturally decaying.”

    You hit on another issue: When God kills us forensically in baptism (see Rom 6), why doesn’t he just take us then? I think it’s because he’s given his Church and His children vocations to carry out. Paul felt the dilemma, but stuck it out as long as he could for his calling.

    Being a husband and father are the main things that keep me going. But I’m not enamoured with the world by any means.

  47. Cash says:

    Dan,

    “And it‚Äôs why so many in the church are silent about their suffering‚Ķthere are very few safe people in the church when it comes to mental illness.” You hit it on the head.

  48. Owen says:

    “Being a husband and father are the main things that keep me going. But I‚Äôm not enamoured with the world by any means.”

    I’m right with you there. I have often asked God what my main vocation will be when the children are gone. (Oh wait, grandchildren! ūüėČ )

    Thanks for reminding me that God has purposes, I have been known to forget……

  49. Paige says:

    Owen….GRANDCHILDREN!!!! Being a grandparent is the best role ever. That’s why it’s called GRAND!!!

  50. Owen says:

    Paige…. looking forward to it. Although we still have a few years to go yet.

  51. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I vote for grand children and my role as the family Pop Pop
    I can’t believe I have 2 that are teenagers. ūüôā

  52. Owen says:

    MLD…

    I have one teen, one almost-teen, and one little one.

    Family Pop Pop – I like that!

    It’s going to blow my mind the first time I am referred to as a Grandpa……

  53. Owen says:

    Dan,

    I think every church needs at least a couple mental health professionals – not only for the ill, but mainly to educate the rest.

    The problem I would foresee with that may be that many are resistant to being educated about it.

  54. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Owen – I didn’t get to choose. My oldest, the first – that’s what she came up with and then the rest as they came along followed.

    I tried to get them to call me G.P. for grandpa – but that didn’t work.

    Mrs. MLD wanted to be called Nana – but the oldest got as far as Mamie and that’s what its been for 14 yrs. – Life takes funny turns.

  55. Dan from Georgia says:

    Owen (53). I agree on both points. Resistance to the facts would be a major struggle, mainly among those who’s knee-jerk reaction is one of the items I mentioned, but there are also those out there who think (like I once did), that if you are a believer, then Jesus is all you need, and your life should be struggle free.

  56. JTK says:

    “I‚Äôm very ecumenical as long as it stays online‚Ķ”

    Classic

  57. JTK says:

    From D James Kennedy’s “What If Jesus Had Never Been Born”

    branches of science and their respective founders who were Christians:
Joseph Lister. Antiseptic surgery
Louis Pasteur. Bacteriology
Isaac Newton. Calculus, Dynamics
Johannes Kepler. Celestial Mechanics (Astronomy)
Robert Boyle. Chemistry, Gas dynamics
Georges Cuvier. Comparative Anatomy
Charles Babbage. Computer science
Lord Rayleigh. Dimensional analysis, model analysis
John Ambrose Fleming. Electronics
James Clerk Maxwell. Electrodynamics
Michael Faraday. Electromagnetics, field theory
Lord Kelvin. Energetics
Henri Fabre. Entomology
George Stokes. Fluid Mechanics
Sir William Herschel. Galactic Astronomy
Gregor Mendel. Genetics
Louis Agassiz. Glacial geology, Icthyology
James Simpson. Gynecology
Matthew Maury. Hydrography, Oceanography
Blaise Pascal. Hydrostatistics
William Ramsey. Isotopic chemistry
John Ray. Natural history
Bernard Riemann. Non-Euclidian Geometry
David Brewster. Optical Mineralogy

    The inventor of the scientific method was Francis Bacon, who said, “There are two books laid before us to study, to prevent our falling into error; first, the volume of the Scriptures, which reveal the will of God; then the volume of the Creatures, which express His power.”

  58. JTK says:

    Oh no, that is ugly formatting.

    branches of science and their respective founders who were Christians:
    
Joseph Lister. Antiseptic surgery
    
Louis Pasteur. Bacteriology
    
Isaac Newton. Calculus, Dynamics
    
Johannes Kepler. Celestial Mechanics (Astronomy)
    
Robert Boyle. Chemistry, Gas dynamics
    
Georges Cuvier. Comparative Anatomy
    
Charles Babbage. Computer science
    
Lord Rayleigh. Dimensional analysis, model analysis
    
John Ambrose Fleming. Electronics
    
James Clerk Maxwell. Electrodynamics
    
Michael Faraday. Electromagnetics, field theory
    
Lord Kelvin. Energetics
    
Henri Fabre. Entomology
    
George Stokes. Fluid Mechanics
    
Sir William Herschel. Galactic Astronomy
    
Gregor Mendel. Genetics
    
Louis Agassiz. Glacial geology, Icthyology
    
James Simpson. Gynecology
    
Matthew Maury. Hydrography, Oceanography
    
Blaise Pascal. Hydrostatistics
    
William Ramsey. Isotopic chemistry
    
John Ray. Natural history
    
Bernard Riemann. Non-Euclidian Geometry
    
David Brewster. Optical Mineralogy

    The inventor of the scientific method was Francis Bacon, who said, “There are two books laid before us to study, to prevent our falling into error; first, the volume of the Scriptures, which reveal the will of God; then the volume of the Creatures, which express His power.”

  59. JTK says:

    I posted that to show that, whether or not one seeks out Christians who pray for the sick or not, God clearly inspired men to invent branches of science, medicines and medical therapies.

  60. Owen says:

    JTK – quite the list, I feel more educated already! ūüôā

    Curious as to what is meant by “the volume of the creatures”…..

  61. Dan from Georgia says:

    JTK…awesome list! Two of my heroes are on the list…Stokes and Maxwell…both examples of formidable mathematical ability!

  62. Dan from Georgia says:

    Two of my science heroes, I mean. Yes I have a life outside of science and mathematics thank you very much!

  63. Surfer51 says:

    Talk about opening the can of worms Kevin ūüôā

    I’m with Michael when it comes to the renewal thingy.

    Ever see a bunch of young people get real “soulish” working themselves up into an emotional Firenze?

    And they think that they are being spiritual.

    But as always that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit.

    The really sad part is they are sending young people out from Bethel to start up places were this kind od renewal is encouraged.

    Once you see it in person you walk away shaking your head and super sad for them.

  64. Babylon's Dread says:

    Well this is a decent discussion with all the normal positions. Here is my take in simple form; We pray for everyone, some recover, some are healed, many remain sick, all eventually die, those in Christ rise.

    We never blame the sick person unless like myself he weighs 300 pounds. There might be some basis in that to blame the ‘victim’ for his own high blood pressure and diabetes. Others drink and smoke themselves into hard earned diseases and addictions. So, common sense matters but we do not labor the obvious. We let doctors do the accusing and our own disease.

    As for healing there are two major views among those who actually seek to heal the sick. The first is that healing is in the atonement. That, as Michael pointed out, seems difficult to prove by the external evidence with so many unhealed sufferers. Then again I think I have seen untold thousands pray the “Jesus prayer” as I call it, at altar calls and go home still unredeemed. Evangelism, like healing, is messy business. Not all who “call on the Lord” by the means of evangelistic prayers are saved. Neither, are all healed and that gets people into mumbo jumbo about ‘standing in faith’ which is mostly denial or ‘claiming healing’ or lying.

    The other major group, is those who believe healing is part of the already/not yet aspects of our salvation. We are already forgiven but we still sin. We are already risen from the dead but we still die. Jesus is already LORD but Hillary will be president and Putin will still rule Russia. The kingdom is already arrived but not yet fully manifested. “We do not yet see all things subject to him, but we see Jesus … crowned with glory.”

    Jesus said healing was the manifestation of the kingdom. SO, once in a while I see a kingdom sighting when I pray for people. A woman from Denmark was instantly healed of fibromyalgia symptoms and is free from 6 years of constant pain. A man from Fiji arrived in a wheelchair and is now mowing grass with a mower powered only by the human push. A woman with a dropped foot and unable to walk was dancing and has a doctors report that her brain lesions from MS are abated on the scan. Meanwhile a friend of 25 years is sick with cancer and seems to be incurable and unhealed. So we live with the messiness.

    Those who insist on 1 for 1 perfection in healing prayers will give up healing prayers and turn to quietism or cessationism. We will continue to be ridiculed by our enemies and some of our friends and people will continue to hope and heal and go on.

    I think you all know that Jesus healed some, saved others, and cast out many demons and that when he described those acts in the Gospels he used the same greek word. He used the word we use for being saved. Thus for Jesus salvation involved the body the soul and the spirit, or for the dichotomous; body and soul.

    Yes I am the founder of a renewal church, full of people who can think. Whenever I see these churches caricatured I know that there is enough truth in their ridicule to keep me from bothering with defensiveness but I know the caricature blinds them to many things.

    We live and die together in our churches. We make lots of messes trying to the best things. That was true in the Lutheran church of my childhood, the Baptist church of my first 25 years of ministry and this thing I am doing now. It is true of everything that any of you call church as well.

    Healing is in the Bible. It is in church history. It was in the ministry of Jesus and can be in our ministries as well. We heal the sick, cast out demons, and comfort the dying. We go to our doctors, take our medicine and pray. Some healers are quacks, others are quite strange and others are unexplainable. We live between the lunacy and the mystery. I will not turn back. I know because I have tried and failed too often.

  65. Babylon's Dread says:

    @ #7 Michael

    Why I hold this company; 3 reasons,
    I was homeless and they took me in– I was literally invited
    I was sick and they healed me– This has a story and mostly is about my heart
    I was hungry and they fed me– This too had to do with where my mind and heart found life

    I was touched by Holy Spirit renewal in 1997 and it has not dimmed

    As for: “It is very experiential and places little value on doctrine‚Ķ”

    Yes, and no, we are very experiential. We experience forgiveness, and being born of and filled with the Spirit, we experience healing, tongues, and all kinds of mystical, and what are called here “soulish” experiences. We have dreams and visions which we do not discount and some we do. We have almost all been impacted by the Spirit to the point of being overcome. We fall and rest and wait and engage the God we encounter. We do not suppress our feelings. We see emotions as part of our full humanity and no less trustworthy than our mind or will.

    As for ‘little value on doctrine” … I typically eschew those guys, there are many. I would put Randy Clark with virtually any scholar in other fields. He is learned and tedious and relentless in his pursuit of truth. We now have several hundred with earned post graduate degrees or pursuing them. We are a young movement with undeveloped academia. We are beginning a seminary and soon will experience the same growth pains as other movements.

    We care a great deal about doctrine but it is true that we have not codified our movement. That too is normal for movements.

    I must return to my vacation.

  66. Kevin H says:

    BD,

    Thanks for joining the conversation and adding thoughtful dialogue. Sorry to interrupt your vacation. ūüôā

  67. Babylon's Dread says:

    Sorry I missed earlier. It is an important matter.

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