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88 Responses

  1. Jean says:

    “Once saved, always saved?”

    This is an excellent article on the issue. I love Bird’s alternative formula at the end:

    “Once finished, always finished.”

  2. dusty says:

    I don’t think cancer is funny!

    My mom NEVER blamed God for her’s she knew it was not given to her from Him. It brought her closer to Him. She even called several to ask for forgiveness for her transgressions. She witnessed to the staff treating her and others in her condition

  3. Jean says:

    Here’s another Link. It is an important article by Michael Horton that chronicles the rise of the prosperity gospel in America, and how it may go even more mainstream.

  4. Babylon's Dread says:

    I read with interest the article about the theology diploma mill. Some of my friends sought a degree in that fashion. I was troubled by it because they actually earned the DMin degree and there was little to be gained by garnishing those degrees with the Life University.

    Unfortunately that is another sad facet of the religious market economy. To be sure those men have life experience that has value. However, that value has handsomely been rewarded in most cases by successfully marketing their teachings in books, conferences, audio recordings etc.

  5. Erunner says:

    People have minimized the evil Hitler did during the election season and it’s still going on. This trivializes the slaughter of millions of innocents so people can demonize others.

    Here we see this same clip used once more to comment on the CC situation. Once more I am disappointed Hitler is used in comedic fashion for people to have a few chuckles.

  6. Jeff Jones says:

    Michael, your mind is sick and I am deeply offended you would use Hitler to make fun of a very painful time in many people’s lives. For you to say that your blog is a place of healing is exceedingly hypocritical. It’s a cesspool.

  7. Michael says:


    I haven’t seen anyone minimizing the evil Hitler committed.
    This clip… from a movie…has been modified hundreds of times in some truly hysterical ways.

  8. Michael says:

    Jeff Jones,

    I believe this is a creation of one of your own.

    Jeff, you’ve made it clear what your opinion of me and the blog is.
    Someday, I’ll reciprocate in kind.

  9. CostcoCal says:

    That video clip was vile and demonic.

    Lord, forgive me for commenting on this website.

    Satan won here today.

  10. Michael says:


    You’re forgiven…do you want me to make sure that you can’t fall again?

  11. CostcoCal says:

    That’d be best.

  12. Jeff Jones says:

    Likening the death of millions of Jews at the hand of Hitler (ethnic cleansing) and the split of Calvary Chapel is so unlike God. “But this clip has been modified hundreds of times in some truly hysterical ways.” How would you like a CC pastor to respond to this Michael? Are you not mocking us, making fun of us? How does that bring healing?

  13. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Someone help me. As an outsider on this CCA issue – I watched the video twice. I could not tell if it was pro Brodersen or mocking Brodersen.

  14. dusty says:

    that video was powerful!

  15. Michael says:

    Jeff Jones,

    One would have to have the intellectual acumen of a turnip to claim that a video that has spawned literally hundreds of parodies is likening the death of millions of Jews to CC.

    If you seriously can’t comprehend parody, then I will mock you until I fall from exhaustion.

    I think a CC pastor created this and I received from CC pastors…what should we do with them, Jones?

  16. Michael says:

    The video is a joke.
    That’s all it’s intended to be.
    Many people in “the movement” thought it was funny.

    So do I.

  17. dusty says:

    all the “stuff” that some cc pastors have put all of us here at pp though over the years, I should think you could handle a little parody!

  18. Duane Arnold says:

    Does anyone here remember “The Wittenberg Door” and their satirical pieces? Sometimes it is better to laugh about a situation, otherwise we’d cry… Just saying…

  19. David H says:

    Diploma mills tick me off. I worked had to get my MA and nearly finished a doctorate (I ran out of money, and got a teaching credential so I could support my family) in History. I’m proud of my accomplishments, and owning legitimate degrees. Graduate degrees are about knowing the subject inside and out. They are not about a fancy piece of paper.

  20. Michael says:


    I was a faithful subscriber…

  21. dusty says:

    Michael said, “I think a CC pastor created this and I received from CC pastors…what should we do with them, Jones?”

    I think I just heard a mic drop! boom

  22. Jeff Jones says:

    I don’t know who produced it. It’s wrong. You posted it however. I am just voicing my opinion. Who sent the video to you? Would you please ask that person to email me? I would like to speak privately with that person(s).

    Why do you feel it right to mock? To make fun of and put down? I don’t see that anywhere written in the Sermon on the Mount. I humbling asking asking you to please cool your jets and consider before posting how it affects the Body of Christ. Thank you.

  23. dusty says:

    all the cuts and battle scares we have at the hands of some CCers and you can’t take a joke?

  24. Erunner says:

    Michael, I’ve seen the clip many times before. I’ve also seen people called out scores of times for playing the Hitler card.

    I commented strongly on FB as conservatives were likened to Nazis and Trump was likened to Hitler. These people were/are very serious about making these comparisons. Yes, I thought those people were minimizing the evil Hitler did and I believe this video does the same thing.

    If people want to make a video like that they are more than free to do so. But for me as a Jew whose family was hugely impacted by that monster with many losing their lives I have the same right to come against it.

  25. Michael says:

    Jeff Jones,

    Who the hell do you think you are that I’m going to turn sources over to you?
    Have you really become that delusional?

    Now, there was a day when if Jeff Jones had something to say he would simply pick up a phone and call me.

    Jeff has done so many times.

    Sometimes, however, it is more advantageous to blast someone publicly than seek understanding privately….

  26. fyi says:

    Michael, sometimes it is just easier to apologize and remove a link. Rationalize it if you will, but if someone else did this mocking someone/something close to your heart, you’d respond with guns blazing.

  27. CrucifiED says:

    I hope you spare the pastor who sent you the link… and not give them over to Jeff.

  28. Michael says:


    I’m sorry if this kind of comedy offends you.
    It doesn’t offend me and it has nothing to do with how I feel about the historical realities of Hitler and the Holocaust.

  29. Michael says:


    I have nothing to apologize for and I’m tempted to start making my own versions of the same.
    This is simply another attempt at controlling the narrative…good luck controlling me.

  30. dusty says:

    CrucifiED, Michael NEVER gives up a source.

  31. Disillusioned says:

    That video is freaking hilarious. What’s even more hilarious is reading the comments. Names! Do you hear me?! Jeff Jones wants NAMES!!

  32. Erunner says:

    I understand that Michael. There are things very close to your heart and I have seen you react strongly when you felt someone was denying, mocking, or minimizing one of those things. This is one thing that hits too close to home for me. I’ll leave it at that.

  33. David H says:

    That video was satirical, and funny.
    But, I’m pretty twisted.

  34. CrucifiED says:

    I know Dusty. I’m just being a sarcastic ex-Calvary pastor. : -)

  35. dusty says:

    CrucifiED ahhhh hehe

  36. Jeff Jones says:

    Michael, You have mail.

  37. fyi says:

    Michael, so much for your passionate posts ending the year about being more understanding, listening to one another, and loving as the church is supposed to love–sacrificially. You must not have meant those things…

  38. Michael says:


    Well done.
    The other way to control the narrative is to slime the messenger.
    It’s not going to work.

    You and Jeff can’t seem to grasp the fact that the you have no authority here…simply showing up occasionally to try to tell me what to do is not an effective strategy.

  39. fyi says:

    I do understand now. You have no accountability to anyone. Sort-of what you have been accusing CC pastors of for years. How does it feel to point your finger at yourself?

  40. Michael says:

    I have to step away…will try to check in later…

  41. fyi says:

    I won’t bother yo again.

  42. Michael says:


    You are now a liar.
    I am not accountable to you or Jeff Jones except to be honest and fair as possible.
    There are people I am directly accountable to…and you should be ashamed for lying about such.

  43. Babylon's Dread says:

    It is a good thing there was no online blogging back in the days of the SBC crisis. The blood would have been up to the horses bridles.

  44. Duane Arnold says:

    Satire is a humorous way in which to frame a situation or event. Generally, it is not directed at a particular person. I think the video falls into this category. Sarcasm, on the other hand, directed against one person, with the intent to insult, is a different matter. It seeks to demean the other… There is a difference.

  45. Josh the Baptist says:

    Dread is right, it still flows pretty strong and we are 20 years past the controversy.

    Back in the day, it was the SBC papers that carried the message.

  46. Lutheran says:


    I loved the Wittenburg Door! I don’t think there’s ever been anything like it or in its league.
    Great humor along with some great interviews.

    I also met one of the founders at a conference. Just as funny in person.

  47. Bob Sweat says:


    Mike Yaconelli?

  48. Lutheran says:



  49. Corby says:

    That. Video. Is. Awesome. I saw it last night and nearly coughed up a lung I was laughing so hard, and I LOVE CC. It pretty much nails a lot of things on the head and should help people see that they are taking themselves too seriously.

  50. j2theperson says:

    I’m surprised some people are so culturally illiterate. Are you really completely unaware of the editing-the-subtitles-of-the-hitler-movie meme? It’s something that’s been done thousands of time over the course of many years.

  51. Scooter Jones says:

    2017: The Year Of Being Offended…again.

  52. Xenia says:

    Oh dear….. I thought it was hilarious.

  53. Jean says:

    “I humbling asking asking you to please cool your jets and consider before posting how it affects the Body of Christ.”

    Jeff Jones,
    If it’s the Body of Christ you’ve concerned about, then your indignation and energy would better serve the Body by addressing the blasphemy in your movement, beginning with pastors who mock the Lord’s Supper by treating as a toast to Jesus and other pastors who deny the New Covenant is for the Church. When your done there, circle back for more.

  54. dusty says:

    Jean, you are too funny

  55. Bob Sweat says:

    Well Jean,

    That blasphemy would include more than just Calvary Chapel. While I certainly respect the Lutheran view of the Lord’s Supper, as well as the New Covenant, calling those who do not believe as you do blasphemes is a little judgemental on your part.

    BTW, I know Jeff Jones, and we have had lunch together numerous times, as well as talked on the phone. While Jeff and I have strong disagreements over Calvary Chapel, he is still my friend, and a good guy.

  56. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    On a happier note, today is the 10th day of Christmas – so the Magi are just around the corner. 🙂

  57. Michael says:

    Starting at #6… if you read Jones and fyi’s comments you will see why there is so much rage against CC at times here.
    You will also see the extent to which tyrants will go to control narratives and outcomes.

    Let’s review…

    #6… Jones states that I have a sick mind. He says that for me to say that this blog is a place of healing is hypocritical. (I think others have said that far more than I have.) This blog is a “cesspool”.

    #12…Jones… “Likening the death of millions of Jews at the hand of Hitler (ethnic cleansing) and the split of Calvary Chapel is so unlike God.” It would be unlike any sentient creature to actually think that is what this video was doing.

    #22… Jones…wants the names of those involved to speak with them privately. Why would that be necessary after this sewer explosion?

    #26… fyi…”Michael, sometimes it is just easier to apologize and remove a link.” That assumes I should be sorry for doing something according to the standards of fyi and Jones.

    #37 fyi…”Michael, so much for your passionate posts ending the year about being more understanding, listening to one another, and loving as the church is supposed to love–sacrificially. You must not have meant those thing” Because I would not comply with fyi’s wishes he states that all of my writing is now invalid.

    #39… fyi… states that because I will not make myself accountable to him, then I am accountable to nobody.

    There’s only one Moses allowed per blog, fyi.

    From now on fyi will be required to post with his name.
    You want to play hardball, we’ll play hardball.
    The difference is, I’ll be honest and clear, unlike the thread above.

  58. Babylon's Dread says:

    So Bill Johnson was #2 in CT just behind Andy’s “stinking parents” comment? We are occupied by lofty things aren’t we?

  59. Babylon's Dread says:

    I’m feeling relieved that my original comment on this thread was not about CC and was overlooked.

    Ph D Dread

  60. Michael says:

    I thought they tried to be fair to Johnson.

    I wouldn’t have tried very hard… 🙂

  61. CostcoCal says:

    Yeah, for some reason that video completely rubbed me the wrong way. And it still does.

  62. Michael says:


    What happened to your dramatic plea for forgiveness for posting here?
    Did you commit the unforgivable sin by coming back?
    Can you be be brought back to repentance?

    You rub me the wrong way…and I cleaned that up for the sake of the pious.

  63. CostcoCal says:

    Let’s just stop rubbing each other any which way 🙂

  64. John 20:29 says:

    well… i’m sure the subtitles resonate with many, but i’m in the boo hiss camp on the video… sometimes clever – it is that – is still not good

  65. EricL says:

    Wow, Michael sure knows how to spice up my suggested Linkathon list. Adds one little video and BAM!, the comments pour in. 🙂

  66. covered says:

    I have been away for a couple of days but I am so thrilled to stop by today. Who the hell is Jeff Jones? Is he someone we should know? Who the hell demands names of sources like he did? What an asswipe! The video is satire and it’s freaking hilarious! I’m starting to like Costco again. I hope that he comes back.

  67. Josh the Baptist says:

    “I regret getting a dove tatoo.”

    Come on, that’s funny.

  68. Jean says:

    Bob Sweat,

    You say that Jones is a good guy. But the things he said about our host are not good nor fair. I only know of him what he says here. But, I have no personal opinion of him other than that.

    Regarding blasphemy? Yes, the definition fits on the points I made. It you were to line those CC pastor teachings up against the Bible, you would find that blasphemy, heresy and violation of the 2nd Commandment (“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.”)

    If Jones is a good guy and cares about the Body of Christ within the CC, he can start by rooting out the errors I previously mentioned.

    Does the Moses model entitle a pastor to re-write holy scripture? Is it judgmental to call our patent error?

  69. pstrmike says:

    So now we are all going to get filled with indignation over this video? How many times has this particular clip been used as a parody? Many times. Get over yourselves and your pompous self righteousness.

  70. enjoyinglife says:

    Personally, I thought the video was hysterical. Whoever wrote it could make money on the side as a scriptwriter. He/she seems to have a great grasp of the issues, and pokes fun at them. I assume she/he used the Hitler movie simply because it became funny with the stricken looks of the aides as well as those listening to the “inner sanctum” from outside the door. I suppose they could have used scenes from Blazing Saddles or Space Balls, but this has it’s own cache. Maybe some freak because it hits too close to home, but that’s mere speculation. Having a grasp of the issues myself, sometimes you just need some comic relief. Bravo!

  71. Bob Sweat says:


    Tell you what, you will never find me defending the Moses model. I have not been a fan of Calvary Chapel for years. I’m just saying I know Jeff is a nice guy.
    You bet, he did take a cheap shot of Michael, michael’s used to that and he knows how to handle it.

  72. pstrmike says:

    which doesn’t make Jeff so nice of guy…..

  73. Bob Sweat says:

    Pastor Mike

    Be nice?

  74. Michael says:

    I’m outraged.

    People wonder what creates someone like Reuben who has a deep contempt for things we hold dear.

    One need only look at this thread.

    Jones and fyi have often called me their “friend”.
    Until I disagree with them and refuse to buckle.
    Then you can read what they now have to say about me.

    Reuben had this times fifty…

    Bob, I’m glad he’s your buddy.
    Watch your back…

  75. Michael says:

    My illness has morphed into pneumonia…thus, I must put down my sword for a while.

  76. Stephen says:

    I loved the video, and we almost busted a gut trying to stifle our laughing because the kids are sleeping about 10 feet away from us

  77. Erunner says:

    Michael, please take care of yourself. You’ve got a lot going on physically and pneumonia is not good. I’m sorry you’re going through these things.

  78. Bob Sweat says:

    Not my buddy, just a friend.?I have learned after 12 years in 3 different CC’s to watch my back. Take care of yourself!

    Good point about Reuben.

  79. Jeff Sheckstein says:

    To all offended by the Hitler clip, get a life. As a Jew I found it hilarious. Isn’t it ironic that most well known comedians are Jewish? You people would hang Don Rickles for being politically incorrect and insensitive. Unbelievable. Having lost my business and experienced other “trials” in my life, I have fully come to appreciate the need for irony, sarcasm and other types of humor to get through my life. What in Lord did you people do when Saturday Night Live was in its prime?

    Michael. Take time to get better and disregard the humorless and legalists hanging around here.

  80. Jeff Sheckstein says:


    To those that take issue with my comments, give Michael your addresses and to make amends, I’ll send you a gift…the DVD set of Hogan’s Heroes.

  81. Erunner says:

    Jeff, I have a life. I posted and shared my thoughts without attacking anyone. This topic hits close to home for me. I don’t apologize for it. Some of us are wired differently. I grew up watching Hogan’s Heroes and Stalag 17 is one of my favorite movies. I have a great sense of humor.

  82. John 20:29 says:

    well, perhaps it is alright to ridicule anything hitleresque – still…

    but finding anything at all funny about the demonic man’s history just doesn’t make any sense to me… was he funny? was Nero funny? was Pol Pot?
    Trump is funny, Dianne Finestein is funny, Lynden Johnson was funny, Winston Churchill was funny, de Gaulle was funny… Hitler and his brown shirts or Stalin? not so much… IMHO

  83. Jeff Sheckstein says:

    One of my favorite movies was The Producers. Also one of my favorite Broadway plays. Jewish writer, Jewish director, Jewish producer, Jewish executive producer…all Jewish money baking both productions.

    “springtime for Hitler” was brilliant and great comedy, as was Kenny Mars portrayal of a Nazi soldier.

  84. j2theperson says:

    People laugh at an edited clip from a movie about Hitler and now they’re “finding something funny about this demonic man’s history”? I don’t buy it. It’s a movie. People have found the movie to be a good source of entertainment. Are people finding something funny about Ghengis Khan when they laugh at “The Conqueror”? I’m baffled by this inability to separate reality from fiction.

  85. Jean says:

    “Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the world, according to a European study. In 2016, 90,000 Christians were killed because of their faith. This, however, was an improvement over 2015, when 105,000 Christians were martyred.”

    Lord have mercy.

  86. Duane Arnold says:


    Todd Johnson at Gordon Conwell has done a great demographic study on martyrdom in the modern age. Well worth seeking out…

  87. Disillusioned says:

    I’m so sorry to hear of your pneumonia. Please take care of yourself and get well soon.

    I’m glad you have this ‘cesspool’ of a site and now Sheckstein has given me the inkling to watch both Hogan and Springtime for Hitler, the best worst musical number of all time ?

  88. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Turk’s announcement (which may or may not signal an actual retirement from blogging in the long run) reminded me of the debate Turk had with Michael Spencer at Internet Monk years ago about Mark Driscoll. For those who read it, I won’t rehash all of it in a comment. For those who haven’t, it’s archived at Internet Monk. As debates about the scope and ethics of Christian blogging in relationship to pastors (celebrity or otherwise) go it’s remained an instructive touchstone for me.

    What sticks with me is that Turk and the Pyro side seemed to genuinely believe was that people on blogs ought to be able to say that some other pastor (with whom and to whom they have no functional relationship) isn’t fit for ministry. Well, if blogs can be construed as platforms from which to say that what makes a Team Pyro blog able to say something about a pastor that a Wartburg Watch can’t say? Turk may have been right by accidents of providence regarding Driscoll but Spencer’s counter-argument that bloggers, while exercising First Amendment rights, can’t possibly expect to effect change, has not been rebutted.

    What passes for accountability in the internet scene can too often be license to pontificate. What can happen when people pontificate on the internet is they tend to impute to others their own character flaws. In the ways in which the two men can sound off for the record about some character issue they have that they immediately impute to their entire audience a Mark Driscoll and a Frank Turk are not necessarily in any way different. Sure, the “what” that they stand for may look different but the “how” they stump for the “what” can end up looking pretty much the same.

    So if Turk now has a bad conscience about how he conducted himself as a blogger why presume that all other bloggers share in his character flaws the way he seems to have presumed?

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