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204 Responses

  1. Kevin H says:

    So being the topic has popped up in Linkathon, I pose my question from yesterday’s thread once again, for anybody else who wants to chime in – Biblically, what responsibility do nations and/or even individuals have to support modern day Israel?

  2. Kevin H says:

    I ask because I’m not studied well enough on the topic to confidently give an answer. But I do lean towards this modern day version of Israel should not be given any special consideration beyond what any other nation should be given. They should be treated based on what they do right and wrong as a nation and whatever is politically beneficial (within the bounds of good ethics and morals) of the other country.

  3. Michael says:

    Kevin H,

    Biblically, I have a tough time seeing any responsibility and I think Laurie’s quote is nonsense.

    There is absolutely nothing in the NT that suggests we have any responsibility to national Israel as a country.

    A case can be made politically, but that is a temporal issue.

    Romans 9-11 speaks to the hope that they will be reconciled to God and we are to have that hope as well.

  4. filbertz says:

    I’m always encouraged when Christian ‘leaders’ cite secular authors in their ‘library lists’ as Keller did. While it is a smattering of non-fiction and non-Christian, I like that he says Tolkien ‘baptizes’ his imagination. It’s important to get off the merry-go-round every once in a while and poke around the rest of the playground.

  5. Michael says:


    Well said.
    Lately, I’m finding more ‘truth” outside of “Christian” publishing than from it…

  6. Michael says:

    Kevin H,

    Well said @2…but if you say that out loud in your church there won’t be much left of you…

  7. Erunner says:

    I know a ton of folks that are pro Israel which is fine with me. What concerns me is the idea that some of them don’t understand that Jews are lost and need to repent of their sin and recognize Jesus as Messiah.

  8. Erunner says:

    “It’s important to get off the merry-go-round every once in a while and poke around the rest of the playground.

    fil, you and a few others have a unique and excellent way of expressing your thoughts. It’s hard to keep up at times! 🙂

  9. Michael says:


    I don’t care if someone is pro Israel…I have a big problem with people who separate true believers from false on the basis of Israel.

  10. Kevin H says:


    I have thrown some people in my church (not leaders, just run-of-the-mill non-member members) for a serious loop by simply stating that I’m open to consider other end times views outside of the pre-trib, pre-mill construct. They were probably praying for my salvation before they went to bed. 🙂

  11. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Reading in the white spaces of the NT is the only place you will find biblical support for national / ethnic Israel. Viva Peru!!!

  12. Nonnie says:

    I am no end times fanatic and I don’t believe all that Israel does is good and true, but I can certainly understand that there are countries that don’t care at all for the plight of the Palestianian people and hate Israel. They only use Palestine as a tool to destroy Jews.

    Israel has the right to defend itself, just as Peru, or France, or America would have the right to defend itself.

  13. Nonnie says:

    Michael’s number 9. Yes. I agree.

  14. Michael says:

    “Israel has the right to defend itself, just as Peru, or France, or America would have the right to defend itself.”

    Nonnie, I agree.
    But why is this a church issue?

  15. Shaun Sells says:

    What E said at #7.

  16. Kevin H says:


    I do think it is politically right and advantageous for our country to mostly support Israel. There is a ton of evil and nonsense that they must deal with. But I seriously question if our support should have anything to do with OT texts.

  17. Michael says:

    Kevin H,

    I would recommend a book to you called “Jesus and the Land” by Gary Burge.

    You might find it helpful.

  18. Nonnie says:

    To me it is not. To me it is political, as far as Israel protecting itself…….except that when I look at the unrealistic,illogical hatred for Jews, throughout the ages, around the world, I have to believe that there is a spirit behind it. There is no “logical” reason for so many to hate the Jews.
    In our society that boasts of tolerance, why all the hatred for Jews? (I live in Europe and I see it here!) When you look at how Jewish students are being treated on university campuses, attacked in supermarkets, etc, etc, etc. There is no logic behind it. I truly believe it is spiritual.

  19. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “But I seriously question if our support should have anything to do with OT texts.”

    I do too since Jesus fulfilled those OT texts … not Israel.

  20. Josh The Baptist says:

    I side with Israel. Can’t make a great NT case for it, but Revelation seems to show that the nation has some end times significance. I hope they all come to Christ in the end.

  21. Kevin H says:


    I think you’re right about there being a spiritual hatred of the Jews that has long continued on in our world. Just look at the Holocaust for one glaring example. It sure seems like Satan has and continues to be at work to draw up hatred of the Jews. Not by any means that they are the only race/religion that has been persecuted, but historically it just seems like there has been more emphasis on them in the whole scope of things. Just how things appear to me, anyway.

  22. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jonathan Merritt’s article on whites in the church is just total idiocy. What is his point? Has anyone EVER heard anyone say that Christianity is a ‘white’ religion?
    Blacks and Hispanics in America have always been almost 100% Christian in America

    In fact, probably a larger % of the black population and hispanic population are Christian than are whites.

  23. Kevin H says:


    I seriously question in that I don’t reject completely out of hand, but that I do have significant doubt about any application of these OT texts to bringing about support for today’s Israel.

  24. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh – don’t all the nations have some end times significance and or role? Doesn’t Gog and Magog and NYC play a big role

  25. Josh The Baptist says:

    I don’t know, MLD. There seems to be a lot said about Israel in Revelation.

  26. Erunner says:

    Michael, I haven’t met anyone basing salvation based on a viewpoint of Israel although I imagine they do exist.

    I do agree with what Nonnie stated in her #18.

    If I recall correctly John Hagee stated Jews had some sort of special entrance into Heaven based on the fact they are God’s people. It scares me to believe people might believe that.

    I do believe we should support them and I don’t trust Iran as far as I can spit. We’ll see what the future holds.

  27. Kevin H says:


    I also think that the nation of Israel and Jewish people will have end times relevance and significance. I just question whether the OT texts have any relevance towards our need to support this current manifestation of the nation of Israel.

  28. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “I don’t know, MLD. There seems to be a lot said about Israel in Revelation.”

    It’s the location of the event – that’s it. Hey Tempe AZ hosted the Superbowl, but it wasn’t about the Arizona Cardinals.

  29. dswoager says:

    MLD, your #28 is good. Just a heads up, I’ll probably end up stealing that at some point.

  30. Bob says:


    The answer to your question about supporting Israel depends on your views on who the physical nation of Israel is and the political needs of the United States.

    The text says a lot about Israel, Jerusalem, the Jewish people, the Nations and the arrogance of those grafted in.

    Will all of these play a part in the eschatology of God? Yes.

    Should we care? Yes.

    Are all Christians Israel? No.

    Do any of you want to a part of or recognized with the historic Northern Kingdom, Israel? I would bet no.

    Now as far a John Hagee goes; it’s my opinion he need to read his text again or maybe those who listen to him do.

    What I don’t get is how many CCs (or any church for that matter) hold a pre-trib rapture as an essential part of their doctrines.

    Oh well, there’s a lot more to these links than a rant about Israel.

    Pray for the peace of Jerusalem!
    Those who bless…
    Those who curse…

  31. Josh The Baptist says:

    Kevin H, I’m not sure about the OT texts either, but I would rather err on the side of trying to take the bible seriously.

    It’s the location, but the inhabitants play no part? If you are right, when I get to heaven I’ll let Jesus know he fooled me with the “Israel” symbolism. I think He’ll understand.

  32. Kevin H says:

    My Israel questions have so far garnered more support for one side of the argument than the other (as I expected). However, I’d be interested in hearing the rationale of anyone who wants to give at least some detail for why they think the OT texts are applicable to the United States (or any country for that matter) needing to support the current day manifestation of the nation of Israel.

  33. Kevin H says:

    Josh, My last comment wasn’t meant to disregard what you have shared so far.

  34. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “…but the inhabitants play no part?”

    Yes, they get killed or converted – just like anyone else

    In the tribulation is it only Jews who get saved? If there are others (didn’t Rafe, Buck and Chloe get saved during this time also) then how is it about Israel?

  35. Josh The Baptist says:

    The more you talk, the more you confirm that the Jews do play a part in the end. Yep, I’ll stick with Israel.

  36. papiaslogia says:

    Jewish people who turn to the Messiah and become evangelists in Revelation = 144,000 of them.

    And Israel plays no part?

    Siding with Israel as well…

  37. Michael says:

    “I’m not sure about the OT texts either, but I would rather err on the side of trying to take the bible seriously.”

    Pardon me while I set my house on fire and throw a brick through the neighbors window.

    I take the Bible really seriously…and just because I’m not genuflecting toward Netanyahu doesn’t mean I don’t.

    Read any decent amill eschatology book and you’ll see some folks who take the Bible very seriously.

    I’m premill and I believe Israel has eschatological significance, but statements like that send me through the roof.

    I damn near lost my composure there for a second…

  38. Bob Sweat says:

    If the nation of Israel’s colors were Dodger blue MLD would change his tune. 😉

  39. Michael says:


    Please show me one place in the book where it says that they become evangelists.
    Take your time…you’ll need it.

  40. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Bob Sweat – actually they are Dodger Blue and White 😉

  41. Bob Sweat says:


    Appreciate what you have said, along with your questions. As someone who once followed the teachings of Hal Lindsey and others in that genre, I wish I could take back many of my former eschatological views that I once taught.

  42. Josh The Baptist says:

    Michael, I think something is going on with you towards me, and I don’t know what it is. I said nothing about Netanyahu, or that anyone else did not take the Bible seriously, only that my stance was my attempt to take it seriously according to my understanding.

    Everything I type infuriates you lately, and you don’t need that. My apologies.

  43. Michael says:

    The book of Revelation says three times after Chapter 7 that no one would repent, so these evangelists are obviously not anointed…

  44. Michael says:


    It has been said on these pages numerous times and in the bazillion Facebook posts from the end time enthusiasts that people who don’t swallow the whole dispensational format don’t take the bible seriously.

    Your implication was the same in the context of the discussion.

    If that wasn’t your implication, my apologies and I’ll get a hose and retrieve my brick.

  45. Michael says:

    I’m toxic as hell…time to break.
    Keep it between the ditches.

  46. Josh The Baptist says:

    Michael, we are friends on facebook, and I have been here nearly daily for 7 years. Do you think I’m that kind of guy? The dispy or nothing type guy? Really?

  47. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    the 144,000 is a symbolism to represent the church of all time
    12 x 12 = 12 tribes x 12 apostles = the church in the OT and the church in the NT
    10 x 10 x10 = 1,000 // 10 x 10 x 10 = is a Trinitarian God number

    12 x 12 x 10 (3rd power = 144,000
    I find that refreshing vs looking for 144,000 virgin Jewish guys

  48. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I luv ya Josh 🙂

  49. Michael says:


    You’re the one who made the comment about “taking the Bible seriously”.
    I already apologized if I misinterpreted what you said.

    Now, I going to find some gas money and head for the woods.

  50. Josh The Baptist says:

    Again, you seem to have something against me lately, and that’s fine. I’ll go back to laying low for a while.

    MLD, you know I love you man!

  51. Michael says:


    I have nothing against you.
    I don’t always agree with you and right now I’m chapped about a lot of things that have nothing to do with you.
    You are a valued member of the community and I just need to get away from all of this for a while.
    I feel like I did about 2004…and that ain’t pretty.

  52. Kevin H says:

    Josh, you should just go jump in a lake. 😉

  53. Nonnie says:

    Get some rest Michael. Sorry you are having a hard time. God bless you.

  54. Josh The Baptist says:

    Kev – Supposed to be 73 degrees here tomorrow. I may just go jump in a lake.

    Praying for you Michael.

  55. Kevin H says:


    I just cleaned off my driveway of ice Sunday night, will probably have to do so again tonight, and then they’re calling for 3-6 inches of snow on Thursday. After these last couple winters, North Carolina sounds really good.

  56. Josh The Baptist says:

    We actually had a little snow last week, but it was all gone the next day. In my opinion, NC is the best place on earth. Weather is good most of the year. Winters are very mild. Beautiful mountains, the best beaches.

    And the nicest, handsomest, bald headed man in the world.

  57. says:

    Regarding supporting the nation Israel, I’ve often wondered how much effort CCs would’ve been put into it if everyone stopped buying books, attending conferences, and reading newspaper prophecy long ago. Hmmmm.
    Now, if you’ll excuse me I must be off to “being cursed.”
    By the way, since we’d rather create/throw labels than have rational discussions, I hope we nuke Iran and starting executing operation dirt nap all over the Middle East soon (we put a lot of people there 6′ under).
    Just in case anyone wants to try and saddle me with “liberal,” at least serve in combat as long as I before judging my intentions.

  58. Jim says:

    Not to worry, regardless of the current political theater. AIPAC owns both the WH and Congress.

  59. Ixtlan says:

    Greg Laurie’s tweet:

    I struggle whether that is an accurate translation of Genesis 12:3. Romans 4 and Galatians 3 would indicate that the seed are those who believe by faith and become the descendants of Abraham.

    That being said, the land promise in Genesis 15:18-20 is given to the descendants of Abraham. If that has been fulfilled in a spiritual sense, how do you reconcile the fact that this promise is very specific geographically other than there must be a material fulfillment? It is inconsistent to give such a detailed material description and expect only a spiritual fulfillment. This very detailed material promise has never seen fulfillment, it must be considered that a future, material fulfillment still awaits.

  60. Neo says:

    “Are you going to restore the Kingdom of Israel now?”, asked the disciples.

    “None of your business. Receive power and be my witnesses”, answered Jesus.

    From my reading of Jesus in the Gospels, He was incredibly quiet about Rome and Israel. He had nothing to say except that Jerusalem would be run over. And that unless the zealots repented, they would join others whom Rome crushed.

    What am I missing here?

  61. Neo says:

    …I really find it hard to fathom that Jesus’ Kingdom includes warfare, politics, threats, warheads, and the like.

  62. Em says:

    if one’s church is a merry-go-round (love the mental picture), i’d say it’s important to get off period…

    Israel geographically and as a part of the human race are, i am convinced, key players in God’s plan (mysterious to me)… but being Jewish does not give them a pass… they are not our brothers and sisters (in Christ)… as a people, a part of humanity they get my respect – as i see prophecy unfolding (whenever) i feel sad for them, but God’s perfect will be done

    those of us who went thru WW2 and learned of the Nazi death camps and the rejection of so many of the refugees by our governments found the drama of the rej-establishment of their homeland a wonderful epic – did it excite us evangelicals too much? no, i don’t think so… we should get excited whenever we see history move in the direction of fulfilling prophesy, but we should not go to seed on it, forgetting that the day and hour are not given to us as far as i know

  63. Francisco says:

    RE: On how Evangelicals became Israel’s friend.

    While I personally hold to dispensational premillennialism, I cannot deny the fact that for most of its history the Church was amillennial. In additional to Schofield, we can say that the birth of Israel in 1948 really helped bible prophecy and dispensational premillennialism to become popular thus lots of support for the modern Jewish nation.

    At the end of the day, whether a follower of Jesus is dispensational(pre trb, mid trib, pre wrath, or post trib) or of the amillennial /Covenant tradition doesn’t mean we can’t break bread together because we will one day in glorified bodies.

  64. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Joshua 21:43 answers the land promise question – they already received it.

    “Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there”. –

    It was given, they received and took possession and settled it.

  65. papiaslogia says:

    Michael – “Please show me one place in the book where it says that they become evangelists. Take your time…you’ll need it.”

    [Rev 7:1-17 ESV]
    1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree.
    2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
    3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
    4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
    5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
    6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
    7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
    8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.
    9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
    10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
    11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
    12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
    13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?”
    14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
    16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
    17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

    So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church. Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.”

    These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17, in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come). The tribulation period is a future seven-year period of time in which God will enact divine judgment against those who reject Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel. All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24–27). The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.

    Didn’t take THAT long, and I’ve been busy with work… 🙂

  66. Kevin H says:

    So I can’t goad one brave soul to come on here and say based on the Bible and especially the OT texts we need to be supporting modern day Israel, no holds barred, and give a compelling argument for why that is.

    C’mon, do it quick before Michael returns. 🙂

  67. Michael says:


    I asked for a passage that stated they were evangelists.

    There is absolutely nothing, nada, zilch in that text (or any other) that makes that assertion.
    The great multitude that John sees are already in heaven so no need to evangelize those already home.
    There is nothing in the Scriptures that says the tribulation is seven years long.
    It actually clearly states that we will not know the lengthy of that period.
    It is repeated in the text after Rev 7 that no one will repent despite the wrath of God being poured out.

    Go ahead and take some more time.

  68. Michael says:


    I’ll find something for you…hang on.

  69. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Paps – do you ever see that listing of the tribes anywhere else but here? Was there a tribe of Joseph? Where is Dan?

    Note that he says he “heard” the number of the sealed – but when he looked / saw – this 144,000 was described as “a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,”

    They were called one thing, but by sight they were another.

  70. Michael says:

    Kevin H,

    I actually subscribe to this organizations magazine…and I respect them a lot.

  71. Michael says:

    “The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.”
    (Revelation 9:20–21 ESV)

    “The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire. They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.”
    (Revelation 16:8–9 ESV)

    “The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguishand cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.”
    (Revelation 16:10–11 ESV)

  72. papiaslogia says:

    You seem stuck on the concept of the 144,000 NOT being evangelists – I’ll give you that the Bible doesn’t call them that. So what?

    You can infer that when the writer calls them Jews that they are in fact not Jews – but the Church?

    Then I can infer that 144,000 Jews are mentioned before the mass multitude are separate and perhaps evangelists during the Tribulation.

    Who even brought up the length of the Trib? Oh yeah…..

  73. papiaslogia says:

    “Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”
    (Rev 14:12 -13 ESV)

    There are believers on earth during the Tribulation who die, or else this passage makes no sense.

    Which seems to go against the idea that NO ONE repents during the Trib.

  74. Michael says:


    The “so what” was a statement that you made and one I believe is a canard that needs to be dispensed with.

    I have said nothing about the 144,000…I have to assume that they are Jewish, but as MLD pointed out there are some questions about the tribes named.

    You can infer that they are evangelists, but they must have done very quick work because John sees the great multitude immediately afterward and the text gives no record of anyone being saved after Chapter 7…it argues against it.

    I believe the great multitude is the raptured church.

  75. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “There are believers on earth during the Tribulation who die, or else this passage makes no sense.”

    If you don’t buy into the secret rapture, then all Christians who are still alive when the tribulation begins are there.

  76. Michael says:


    It is a problematic passage if you place it’s meaning at that point of the judgments.
    There is another way to interpret it that I believe is more consistent with the whole book.

    To “die in the Lord” means to remain faithful to the very end, to make Christ the sphere (ἐν+ dative of sphere) of your life. The added ἀπʼ ἄρτι (ap˓ arti, from now on) means that this teaching refers not just to the final period of history but to all the saints who die while remaining true to Christ from John’s time to the end of history. Yet it also signifies that the period of testing was starting, and the church must be ready for what was going to happen “from now on.” They would be tested by persecution and must “right now” determine to remain faithful (14:12).

    Osborne, G. R. (2002). Revelation (pp. 544–545). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic.

    14:13. The most recent reference to John’s writing activity had been in Revelation 10:4, where he was ordered not to write down the message spoken by the thunders. Here is a message that must be written. For only the second time in the entire book, special blessing is offered to a group. The first was to all who read, heard, and obeyed the message of Revelation (1:3). This blessed is extended to the dead who die in the Lord from now on, that is from John’s time until the final consummation.

    Easley, K. H. (1998). Revelation (Vol. 12, p. 252). Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

  77. Neo says:

    Everyone knows Barney,… that cute purple dinosaur.

    But here’s something that you may not know:

    1. Start with the given:


    2. Change all U’s to V’s (which is proper Latin anyway)


    3. Extract all Roman Numerals:

    CV V L DI V

    4. Convert these into Arabic values:

    100 5 5 50 500 1 5

    5. Add these numbers up:

    + 5


  78. Neo says:

    …AND…notice my post was 77.

  79. Steve Wright says:

    I don’t know why there is such an insistence on no Biblical support for a position that is held by multitudes of Christians, many of whom know plenty of Greek, many of whom are scholars, teach at seminaries.

    Explains the role of Jews, unbelievers and eventual believers, the role of Gentiles saved and damned during the tribulation, the place for the antichrist, his timing and activity….

    And above all it is all very well-traveled ground.

    Is it the ONLY possible view, of course not, but a view nonetheless. It is a very simple, and frankly, reasonable, explanation of how it all plays out if one’s hermeneutic allows for it.

    When those hermeneutics are rejected out of hand, then obviously one is going to interpret the minutia of individual verses differently.

    But why people insist their is no argument is beyond me…..when so many who love, know, and proclaim the Lord and His written word all can recite it in unison.

    In fact, I find it fascinating that you can ask the pretrib, premill guys for a take on a verse, and you likely will get almost the same answer from each. Ask an amill guy for the same (i.e. when was the 70th week of Daniel fulfilled in prophecy) and you are likely to get a different opinion for everyone you ask….as I have shown on this board in years past.

  80. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    ” (i.e. when was the 70th week of Daniel fulfilled in prophecy)”

    Right after week 69 🙂 I don’t know any amil folks who would say the same.

  81. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve, I have read how Hal Lindsey, Tommy Ice and Tim LaHaye interpret those various verses – are you in unison with them?

  82. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Right after week 69 🙂 I don’t know any amil folks who would say the same.

    OOPs!! meant to say “I don’t know any amil folks who would NOT say the same.”

  83. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve – no one said that it is not a possibility – in a contingent universe, all things are possible except getting toothpaste back in the tube. 😉

  84. Michael says:

    My hermeneutic allows for it.
    I simply asked for a single shred of evidence for the “evangelist” tag.
    The point was conceded and I moved on.

    The only “evangelists” I see are two witnesses who are murdered and three angels that are ignored.

  85. Kevin H says:


    Thanks for the earlier link. I’ll have to go through their site when I have some time. I did see they were selling some Joel Rosenberg books. You must be a big fan. 🙂

  86. Steve Wright says:

    If one allows for a pretrib rapture, then certainly one can accept that multitudes from every nation (Gentiles) will, in the immediate aftermath, come to saving faith – as it is before the antichrist begins his reign of terror. One thing about Harold Camping, though in great error, he got a whole lot of unbelievers (my facebook feed has several) aware of something called a rapture of the Christian church. I think a lot more unbelievers, especially those we have witnessed to about Jesus (and NOT mentioned the rapture to I might add) will come to saving faith when the Church is gone. Their witness will be bold, and of course they will be martyred by the world as she always has done (though not martyred by antichrist as this is too early)

    Meanwhile, the unbelieving Jews will embrace the false messiah for the first 3 1/2 years – even though the 144,000 Jews and the two witnesses will be preaching the gospel. The unbelieving Jews (many of them) will have their eyes opened when antichrist turns on them, and the message that the 2 witnesses (who the antichrist kills of course) and the message of the 144,000 (also killed by antichrist) will bear its fruit then.

    So much as Gentiles will be saved after the rapture in part due to the witness the Church had given them when She was here – so Jews will be saved in part due to the witness the 144,000 (and the 2 in Jerusalem) proclaim. Whether they rightfully can or should be called evangelists matters not to me…but they certainly are witnessing and eventually much fruit arrives

    By then of course, Gentiles are aligning with antichrist, no longer getting saved after the initial harvest – as he deceives them. Antichrist is killing Jews (as the (largely Muslim no doubt) world applauds), multitudes of them, though some are able to escape and call on the Lord who returns to Bozrah, marches to Meggido (the distance listed for us in Scripture) and then, goes to Jerusalem and the Mt. of Olives and starts the millennium.

    There is more, but that is the simple gist…The bottom line for me is that the 7 seals are described and when seal 7 shows up it consists of 7 trumpets…then when trumpet 7 shows up, it consists of 7 bowls….I see no reason to not read these chronologically because #7 in each series is equated to the next series of 7. Put another way, I see no reason to overlap the 3 series of sevens (i.e. seal, trumpet, bowl #1 are either the same thing or the same time)….nor do I see the reason to have seal 5, then trumpet 4, then bowl 6 etc.

    Reading ALL of Revelation chronologically is both logical and makes interpretive sense…to me (and many others)..and all of the above conclusions I listed come from doing so…

  87. Kevin H says:

    Steve, since you have popped in, you mind taking a crack at my original questions? No problems if you don’t. But do you think the warnings in the OT to support Israel would apply to the United States (or anyone for that matter) in relation to present day Israel? Thanks.

  88. Babylon's Dread says:

    Steve Wright is such a good thinker and then he drivels about this …

  89. Michael says:

    I don’t allow for a pre trip rapture, but it’s within orthodoxy.

    I feel the same way about it that Wesley felt about limited atonement…I start spitting.

    I’ll step aside and let the thread progress…

  90. Babylon's Dread says:

    Michael @3 is worth the whole read… thank you sir

  91. Michael says:


    You’re welcome…

  92. Michael says:

    I now return to my book on the destruction of water resources in the Southwest.

    I live in the Northwest so my angst will be minimal…

  93. Ixtlan says:

    I’m just back in for a moment.

    All the land conquered in Joshua did not equate to all the land promised in Genesis 15. It fell far short. They never achieved complete fulfillment of what was promised Abraham’s descendants. Actually, Israel didn’t conquer all of Judea until the time of David.

  94. Babylon's Dread says:

    MLD @69 Bravo!

  95. Babylon's Dread says:

    The 144 K are the church militant — on earth
    The unnumbered multitude are the church triumphant– in heaven
    They are sealed… protected from wrath… not death… but damnation.
    They are ONE …
    The former are arrayed, (numbered) for battle
    The latter are martyred waiting for vindication
    The church is both in heaven and on earth
    No one was raptured…
    How I hate pretribulationalism
    Most of all I hate it for the subordinate nationalism that makes Israel an idol nation

  96. Ixtlan says:

    “The 144 K are the church militant — on earth”

    That’s harder to believe than a dispensational interpretation.

    ” that makes Israel an idol nation”

    Granted, but not with everyone. But then again, I don’t consider myself a dispensationalist, although God made a promise in a tangible, material context, and it will be fulfilled in both the spiritual and material.

    The key to understanding is to know covenant, and to know the identity of the seed.

  97. Babylon's Dread says:

    The dumbest thing in the dispensational think package is separating the church and Israel. Paul spends his whole life with Jews and Gentiles reconciling them into ONE body the church and dispensationalists find a way to make them two things.

    Every church in the Bible was a Jewish/Gentile church, every one. Jews who are not in Christ are simply apostate Jews and the covenant with them was once and for all destroyed in 70 AD … Any saved Jew now is part of the church by definition. Call it a synagogue but it is just an assembly of saints. Now I will parse out the 144k for you

  98. Erik says:

    I think the 144k are not yet here, Jehovah God will raise themfrom the dead and will appear at or around the same time when Elijah and Moses ( 2 witness’s) touch down to begin there end time ministry. As we see in Ezekiel 38 🙂

  99. Babylon's Dread says:

    Ten things we know about the 144 thousand
    1. Servants —- every believer is a servant
    2. Sealed — every believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit
    3. Sing a New Song — the essence of knowing Christ is having the song
    4. The song is unlearnable by the lost– No unbeliever can sing our song Jesus is LORD
    5. Virgins— this is a way of saying they are pure… I have betrothed you said Paul
    6. Follow the Lamb — every true believer is a simple follower
    7. Redeemed — every believer is purchased
    8. They are firstfruits — check out the NT usage of the word
    9. They tell the truth — Liars are singled out in Revelation the TRUTH they tell is of Jesus
    10. They are blameless — who shall lay any charge

    All of these characteristics UNITE Jews and Gentiles in Christ…

  100. Babylon's Dread says:


    Ezekiel 37 is the resurrection of dead Israel and it is PAST has been done..

    When the Jews came back from Babylon they became a corpus … a body raised but without life … The prophets preached to the bones and they rose and went HOME

    When Jesus poured out the Spirit on Pentecost the Jews got filled with the Spirit (both Judah and Israel, the Jews from every nation) they became an army in the earth… A militant church.

    Two stages of Ezekiel 37 were LITERALLY fulfilled by those two moves of God which are PAST … it has been DONE. The apostle Peter preached to the wind and here came 3000 and more…

  101. Steve Wright says:

    Paul spends his whole life with Jews and Gentiles reconciling them into ONE body the church and dispensationalists find a way to make them two things.
    Nonsense…In Christ, the Church there is no distinction…neither Jew nor Gentile (though the ethnic distinction remained, just as a male/female, bond/free distinction remained)

    Of course the Church is ONE body. No dispensationalist worth anything would ever, ever say otherwise.

    I will counter in saying the dumbest thing in the non-dispensationalist view is to have “the Church” also known as “the Body of Christ” consist of a bunch of Old Testament saved Jews (and pre-Abraham saints)…even though there is not one verse calling them “the Church” (we exclude the poor KJV translation of one verse in Acts which every other translation has fixed)

    The ministry of the Holy Spirit..different. Gifts…non-existent. Sealing, baptizing, earnest of the Spirit…nothing in the OT.

    Christ, the head, was making up His body apparently before He ever bothered to set foot on earth as the incarnate Word, and certainly before He ever died and rose again. THAT is ludicrous. The body without a head for centuries. Brilliant theology – why would God even bother with the wonderful imagery He used in the New Testament to see it butchered in such a manner.

    Making Acts chapter 2 not something new but the same old, same old…just as God worked with Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and the rest….Jesus’ promises about a future coming of the Spirit…meaningless since nothing changed.

    I could go on.

    Now, the moment one sees a distinction between the Old Testament saints (mostly Jews) and the Church/Bride of Christ (containing both with all distinctions broken down)…THEN, one can see that the removal of the Church can mean that God once more, (to fulfill the 70th week promised to Jerusalem, and Daniel’s people Israel) will use Israel.

    and one will cease to offer canards about dispensationalism that nobody actually teaches.

  102. Ixtlan says:

    ” Jews who are not in Christ are simply apostate Jews”.

    I prefer to call them unbelievers, not apostates.

    ” and the covenant with them was once and for all destroyed in 70 AD”

    No, the covenant is intact with the seed and is eternal in nature. The question is who is the seed? See my comment #59. Other than that, I’ll let you parse that out as well, I don’t have time to throw exegetical grenades back and forth all night. Goodnight.

  103. Babylon's Dread says:

    Now what about the 144k and the multitude

    MLD said it and no one caught it … watch this parallel

    A question was asked “Who can open the scroll?”

    The elder SAID—-
    5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” Re 5:5.
    No one SAW a Lion— they heard about it

    then John SAW a Lamb
    6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Re 5:6.

    No one questions that the Lion and the Lamb are ONE … there is not a Lion and a LAMB the Lion is the Lamb

    The same pattern comes forward in the next sequence…

    A question is asked in light of the wrath of God … “Who can Stand?” Rev 7:17

    Then John HEARD the answer
    4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel
    Re 7:4.
    No one Saw the 144 thousand they HEARD the number

    Then John LOOKED to see (what he heard)
    9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, Re 7:9.

    The 144k and the unnumbered multitude are ONE… how can they be numbered but unnumbered … that is easy they are numbered … known by God… unnumbered because they are innumerable by man JUST LIKE THE OFFSPRING OF ABRAHAM

    A numbered multitude is an army in TORAH … an innumerable number is an inheritance…

    These two are inseparably ONE and they are Jew and Gentile IN CHRIST

  104. Steve Wright says:

    . But do you think the warnings in the OT to support Israel would apply to the United States (or anyone for that matter) in relation to present day Israel? Thanks.
    Kevin. Let me preface my comment that in my opinion a whole lot of Calvary Chapel guys do not teach the Bible as a dispensationalist (as I would deem myself) – though obviously they hold to the pretrib, premill view for eschatology.

    But dispensationalism is far more than eschatology. And you hit one verse on the head right here. So my answer is, no, the verse does not apply.

    I’ll give you another one. 2 Chronicles 7:14

    The irony of course is that the non-dispensationalist, who sees no difference between the Old Testament Jewish saints, and the Church, should (if consistent) embrace the 2 Chron 7:14 verse since, hey, all it says is “my people”

    The dispensationalist sees this verse as wholly relevant to Israel under the prior dispensation and irrelevant to any nation today

  105. Babylon's Dread says:


    The land promise is fulfilled the Bible cannot be any more explicit

    43 Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there. 44 And the LORD gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their fathers. Not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the LORD had given all their enemies into their hands. 45 Not one word of all the good promises that the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.Jos 21:43–45.

    As for all those claims of eternal… I would assume that you are suggesting that the land is for the Jews in all eternity… but I think that is not what you are suggesting

    Dispensationalist always do spiritual/literal mumbo jumbo ….
    Spiritual children of Abraham are LITERAL… they are flesh and bone and literally real

    Greg Laurie struggles because the covenant is about those who HAVE Abraham’s FAITH not his BLOOD… that is consistent in both testaments. Unbelieving Jews are never heirs of the covenant … they die in the wilderness they are carried into captivity to die, they die in their sin they die without hope and without God… unbelievers are never covenant members

  106. Babylon's Dread says:


    You do not know your opponent…

    2 Chronicles 7:14 “my people” refers to those who are in the Old Covenant

    “My people” does indeed refer to Covenant family members, but it does not require that those covenant family members all be in the same covenant…

    In the New Covenant which fulfills and supersedes the Old … “My People” are those who have the law in their hearts not the law on tablets…

    We do indeed see a difference in OT saints… and New … The Old had promise the New inherit the promise …

    This argument is a red herring

  107. Babylon's Dread says:

    When God spoke II Chronicles 7:14 he was addressing his covenant people by the prophets and it applied to specific people

    In the New Covenant God speaks by the Spirit to his body … the corollary of the Chronicles passage would be the 2-3 chapters of Revelation where Jesus tells the saints that in order to keep their candlestick they are to HEAR his voice… and OVERCOME

  108. Steve Wright says:

    Glad you see the distinction between the OT Jews and the Church then, Dread. Join us…

  109. Ixtlan says:

    Had to peek in one time.

    @103 That’s actually some good work, but unconvinced


    Joshua 21 does not prove your case. For one thing, the Jebusites still had control over Jerusalem until the time of David and there are other passages that make it clear Joshua 21 does not mean the whole. Yes, there is a tension, its a difficult, but it does not make your case.

    Jos 15:63 As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day.

    ” I would assume that you are suggesting that the land is for the Jews in all eternity… but I think that is not what you are suggesting”

    Your tracking with me, at least with the latter.

    “Greg Laurie struggles because the covenant is about those who HAVE Abraham’s FAITH not his BLOOD… that is consistent in both testaments.”

    I’m working through this very carefully, but I would tend to agree. But that does not mean there is not still something future for Israel, the remnant. But they will come to faith through their Messiah.

    Perhaps some other time, I really need to go. Thanks for the conversation.

  110. Babylon's Dread says:

    “Nonsense…In Christ, the Church there is no distinction…neither Jew nor Gentile (though the ethnic distinction remained, just as a male/female, bond/free distinction remained)”

    We agree there is no distinction… but Paul certainly had to convince them over and over that there was no distinction… he was indeed preaching a reconciliation over the matter just to get them to SHARE the table… Remember all those prohibitions against eating

    The Lord’s Supper forced them to EAT and be one together

    “I will counter in saying the dumbest thing in the non-dispensationalist view is to have “the Church” also known as “the Body of Christ” consist of a bunch of Old Testament saved Jews (and pre-Abraham saints)…even though there is not one verse calling them “the Church” (we exclude the poor KJV translation of one verse in Acts which every other translation has fixed)”

    It might well be dumb but I have never once claimed that they were the church they are both the “assembly” of God and thereby are both the covenant people of God… but I never once put the Old Covenant people in the church …

    That is your canard

    That whole argument is not against me… nor anyone I know …

  111. Babylon's Dread says:

    Thank you as well Ixtian

  112. Babylon's Dread says:


    You are a good egg

    A good thinker

    and a royal pain


  113. Steve Wright says:

    Now to comment on the claim in 103 I will offer some simple observations from the text itself.

    In Ch 5, the 24 elders that are addressing the Lion/Lamb/Lord Jesus sing an interesting song.

    And they sang a new song, saying,“Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
    from every tribe and language and people and nation and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

    So we see the ransom/redemption, we see the priests, the promise to reign on earth

    ALL very common New Testament details given to believers in the Church. And yes, from every nation and people…

    And of course this scene is before the first scroll is even opened. John shows no confusion over who these people are. No mention is made of tribulation

    NOW…in ch 7 another great multitude from every nation is seen. They are described as coming out of great tribulation. This is 6 seals into the prophecy. They cry out salvation. Nothing about redemption, or priests to God. Nothing about reigning with God but instead they rejoice that they are going to get to serve God day and night in His temple.

    John does not even know who these people are so it is explained.

    The details are far too numerous and different to be ignored. The initial group, before the first seal is opened, speaks clearly of the Church, using common epistolary expressions.

    The second group, coming out of tribulation, speaks only of salvation, and the chance to serve the Lord (not reign with Him)

    The problem of course (besides the obvious Jewish tribe issue) in connecting the 144,000 with this second group from every nation is that the 144,000 show up LATER in the prophecy. Right after the declaration of antichrist killing those who do not take his mark. They appear in heavenly Zion, with Jesus (before He returns) they sing a new song, but unlike the new song sung in Ch 5 this one is not told us…it is only for the 144,000. They are “firstfruits” – which also makes no sense if the entire Church because the ENTIRE Church is not “firstfruits” ….of course if they are the firstfruits of all the Jews that will be saved and killed by antichrist (and it sure makes sense the 144,000 would be rounded up right away) then the label makes sense.

    Details…details…details….(as long as we are playing that game…per post 103)

    I’m calling it a night now. Not looking to debate the observations…just point out they are there..with a reminder of how ALL Scripture is inspired and profitable

  114. Steve Wright says:

    That whole argument is not against me… nor anyone I know …
    Now, Dread, while you may be excused on this…many on this very blog have said The Church is found in the Old Testament as well….MANY have.

  115. Steve Wright says:

    I love you too Dread. And I will stand side by side with you in the tribulation if I am wrong….in any foxhole. 🙂


  116. Xenia says:

    I am one who believes the Church is found in the Old Testament.

  117. What is the Church? Is it not God’s called out people? Has there not always been people called out by God … OT & NT? So how can one say that the Church was not in the OT – it was at the very fabric.

    Here is the issue – and I will use the term rapture theology to include all the pre trib premil & dispensationalist, as it includes them all.

    The rapture theology people in general and Steve here in particular want to have 2 peoples of God in the biblical days (OT & NT) so that they can maintain a 2 people theology in the Last Days. If I remember correctly, when Steve taught in Hebrews he made the statement that the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 was NOT for the Christians, but was a new covenant with the Jews and that Christians, the Church only benefited indirectly – which in my mind makes the rapture theology position even that more divided – that the Church was only an interval, a parenthesis to God’s real plan … dealing with the Jews.

    I may be a bit harsh here, but the rapture theology people today are much like the 21st century Mormons in that they have publicly reigned in their real position to sound more mainstream. The real message is “let’s get the church out of the way so God can get back to business.”

  118. Ixtlan, @109

    Joshua says clearly – “Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there”.

    How can there be more land to give than ALL THE LAND HE SWORE TO GIVE TO THEIR FATHERS – ?

    Talk about denying scripture to protect a Last Days premise. Besides, Paul in Romans gives the true meaning of the land promise … the whole world.

  119. and Steve, if I have misstated your Hebrews teaching on the Jeremiah 31 passage, I will apologize and stand corrected – but I think used it to make a point when I taught through Hebrews.

  120. Michael says:

    Xenia @ 116… me too.

  121. brian says:

    Not to cause an argument, just an observation, no matter where or who reads a basic math book in what ever language in any time where the math was known there is no disagreement, at all. The same for Chemistry etc. These are mere fallen human constructs but they sure seem to have universal acceptance.

  122. Steve Wright says:

    Church is an actual word. God gave His revelation in Scripture using words.

    We believe in verbal, plenary inspiration…at least I do (and I know that most of you do too)

    The Church, as a word, does NOT show up outside the NT. In point of fact, Jesus Himself said “Upon this rock I WILL (will – FUTURE tense) my Church” – He later used the word in connection with how disputes were to be settled…then, NOTHING until Acts and the Epistles. That holds true in the King James concordance and the ESV concordance too. Two very different translations, neither of which were controlled by dispensationalists. ZERO Old Testament references in both Bibles.

    The chosen people in the OT are a NATION, and a mixture of saved and unsaved, not a called out assembly of 100% believers where saved = chosen/elect.

    The Church IS equated with the Body of Christ…which is the point Dread took objection to me pointing out and lumping him in with apparently Xenia, Michael and whoever else cares to affirm. To repeat, how could the Body be formed centuries before the Head even arrived, much less died and rose again and sent the Spirit to place (baptize) members into the Body, as well as gift members for service within the Body.

    But, to quote an earlier post in the thread…there is zero, zip, nada, support for OT Jews being called the Church. The only way one can find it there, is to do as MLD has done…make up a definition that sounds good, is nice and broad, like “people of God”

    and then, voila, one has the “Church” in the Old Testament because obviously God had His people in the OT.

    And words mean nothing anymore.

    All that posted just for the silent readers who might not recognize that us dispensationalists are not just pulling stuff out of a Tim LaHaye novel or Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth.

    There are solid, substantive, BIBLICAL reasons for seeing things as I have expressed here tonight in my handful of posts. Sure there are other views…but it is tiring to hear the idea that either a) dispensationalists are nuts who have no clue how to read a Bible or to b) only be given a grudging acceptance that at least we are short of heresy

    (And I repeat the disclaimer about Acts 7:38 in the KJV before someone throws that into the mix)

  123. Steve Wright says:

    Brian, if a bunch of mathematicians argued that sometimes when the math book said “division” it really should be interpreted as “multiplication”, but other times “division” does in fact simply mean “division”…… then you would not have that universal agreement you mentioned.

    I align with the mathematicians and chemists you cite. And just read the book

  124. To apply the math book issue with rapture theology – I think the divisions came in when someone invented the dispensations 😉

    Now to one statement – no one ever said Jews were ‘called’ the church. What we say is that we see the church in the OT.

  125. brian says:

    Steve I align with them as well, because it works, always works, theology not so much, that was my point. I agree this is a categorical error on my part I just found it rather strange that a Divine Revelation cannot be as clear on very critical issues as say, a math book.

  126. Kevin H says:

    Thanks, Steve, for answering my question last night.

  127. Linda Pappas says:

    Romans 11

    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (KJV Authorized Cambridge Edition)

  128. mike says:

    Loved the Barney Antichrist meme.

  129. Jtk says:


    Have you seen “A Day Without A Mexican”?

    It’s basically a rapture movie where all Mexicans, and those grafted in, disappear.

    Full circle….

  130. papiaslogia says:

    Eph 2:13- 22 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross , thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

    There is a new man created from both Jew and Gentile – the Church.

    If the Church was in the OT, then why don’t we have to become Jews before becoming Christians? Paul was most strenuous against this concept.

  131. I don’t know why it is so hard for some to grasp the concept that ‘the people of God’ in the OT were not just Jews – – but were also great numbers of Gentiles – the Ninevites of Jonah’s day as only one example.

    Also, the blindness is not just about the Jews. Paul is talking about the Jews in this case, but is there anyone who is not blinded – shut out from Christ … before conversion? No.

    And someone earlier mentioned the remnant – this is not some future group of people who will be revealed … I was part of the remnant – and now here I am. 🙂

    God works for and through all people – and has done so for all time. The OT folks, Jew and Gentile have all come to salvation the same way.

  132. xenia says:

    I think the link to the FB article is worth reading and discussing. It references that sneaky FB experiment where they put cheery photos alternated with depressing photos in selected people’s feed to see how it affected people’s mood, which of course it did.

    I find the “unfollow” button to be very helpful. People can still be a “friend” but I don’t have to read and react to every rant that is posted.

  133. Em says:

    why can’t you see what i see – it’s so clear – so logical? it seems all of us are in agreement on that question … 🙂

    thank you, Pastor Steve for taking the time and effort to post… your #122 is, to me, “so clear and logical”

    i think it is important to realize that we are players in God’s plan to defeat Satan – Grace and Faith – a design to defeat evil? it is a design beyond my understanding, but what a joy to search….

  134. papiaslogia says:

    Tim Kellers bookshelf – Always good to know what pastors are reading. I know that he reads LOTS – not just theology – and that he’s a fan of Tolkien.

    Baptism in the Early Church by Everett Fergusson – Add it to my Christmas gift / reading list. 900 pages! That’s almost authoritative. 🙂

  135. Michael says:

    The Church and Israel in the Old Testament
    by Iain Duguid

    In the beginning, God created Adam and Eve to be a worshipping community: He would be their God and they would be His people. The fall, however, shattered their fellowship with one another as well as with God, a division that was deepened even further in the next generation when Cain murdered his brother. The trajectory away from God begun by Cain’s line ended with a counterfeit worshipping community in Babel (Gen. 11). At the same time, a line of true worshippers ran through Seth to Abram—Abraham—whom God promised to make a great nation and through whom He promised to bless all nations of the earth (Gen. 12:1–3).

    God promised Abraham’s grandson Jacob that He would make his twelve sons into a harmonious worshipping “community of nations” (Gen. 28:3) that would be known by his new name, “Israel.” Significantly, the Hebrew word used here for “community” is qāhāl, which the Greek translation of the Old Testament often renders as ekklēsia, “church.” This goal of a worshipping community was reached after the exodus from Egypt when the people came to Mount Sinai. There God declared the Israelites to be His treasured possession, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Ex. 19:5–6). The Lord promised to dwell among them as their God (Ex. 29:45). But the people had no sooner committed themselves to this covenant relationship with the Lord than they abandoned Him. While Moses was at the top of the mountain receiving instruction from the Lord, the people were at the bottom fashioning false gods. It was clear from the outset that the “holy nation” had no power to live up to its calling.

    The prophets unfold for us the rest of Israel’s history: in spite of God’s faithfulness to them, they were corrupt and rebellious children (Isa. 1:2) and an adulterous wife (Hos. 1–3). This heritage of unfaithfulness belonged equally to the northern and southern kingdoms: Israel and Judah were two twisted sisters from the same family (Ezek. 16; 23) who would each face the punishment of destruction and exile (Ezek. 4:4–6). The Lord could not dwell in the midst of such an unholy people. He abandoned His chosen dwelling place in Jerusalem, leaving His people at the mercy of their Babylonian enemies (Ezek. 8–11).

    Yet the destruction of Israel in the exile could not be the end of the story. Because the Lord had attached His name to Israel, the nation would have to be restored lest His holy name be profaned among the nations (Ezek. 20:14). The promises made at Mount Sinai had to be fulfilled (Jer. 33:20–21), so the two nations of Israel and Judah would be restored by the Lord into a single, reunited body made up of all of the clans of Israel (Jer. 31:1) under a single king (Ezek. 37:16–22). The most important promise was the spiritual transformation of Israel into a new people whose unresponsive hearts would be changed into new hearts under a new covenant (Jer. 31:31–33) by an outpouring of God’s Spirit (Ezek. 36:22–28). The new Israel would become the Lord’s servant, a light for the Gentiles, bringing healing to all nations (Isa. 42:6, 10). However, the new Israel depicted in Isaiah 40–48 continued to be a struggling and weak people who needed constant exhortation to pursue obedience as well as encouragement to trust in God’s faithful love for them. To fulfill God’s purposes, another, better Israel would be required, a servant who would take Israel’s place, doing what Israel was unable to do, fulfilling her calling to bring light to the nations (Isa. 49:6).

    This servant “Israel” took flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. From the moment of His birth, He reenacted Israel’s history, going down to Egypt so that He could be the true son whom God called out of Egypt (Matt. 2:15, quoting Hos. 11:1). Just as Israel passed through the Red Sea, Jesus passed through the waters of baptism (Matt. 3) before being led out into the wilderness, where He successfully faced the same temptations that Israel had failed to endure (Matt. 4). At the beginning of His ministry, Jesus read aloud Isaiah 61:1–2, declaring that the Scripture had been fulfilled in His hearers’ presence (Luke 4:18–19): He was Himself the promised Servant upon whom God’s Spirit rested. As the new Israel, Jesus perfectly fulfilled the demands of the law. The new covenant that Jeremiah anticipated was established in His blood (Luke 22:20). Jesus fulfilled God’s original design for human holiness, thereby personally embodying the new Israel for which the prophets looked.

    Since Jesus Christ is Himself the new Israel, all those united to Him by faith are also incorporated into the Israel of God (Gal. 6:16). He is the true vine, the classic Old Testament image for Israel, and we are His branches (John 15). Because Christ is the living cornerstone of God’s house, those who are joined to Him become living stones in that house (1 Peter 2:4–5) and can be described by the same terminology that described Israel in the Old Testament: in Christ, we are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation” (1 Peter 2:9–10).

    Being part of this new covenant Israel is, thus, not a matter of physical descent from Abraham, but rather sharing Abraham’s repentance and faith (Luke 3:8). The new people of God includes Jews and Gentiles together (Gal 3:28), as both are grafted into the new olive tree, Christ/ Israel (Rom. 11:17–24). That does not mean that God has forgotten His promises to those physically descended from Abraham (Rom. 11:1). Certainly not. But not everyone who is descended physically from Israel is part of the new Israel (Rom. 9:6). The restoration of Israel promised in the prophets is accomplished as the gospel is preached to Jerusalem and Judea (the southern kingdom), Samaria (the northern kingdom), and to the ends of the earth, thereby finally bringing God’s light to the Gentiles (Acts 1:8).

    In the book of Revelation, John heard God’s people described as a group of 144,000 made up of the twelve tribes of Israel (Rev. 7:4–8). Yet when he looked again, he discovered that the same group was an innumerable crowd from every tribe and nation (Rev. 7:9–12). The Lord’s bride, the image used in the Old Testament for Israel, is the church and will one day be defiled by her sin no longer but beautifully adorned for her husband (Rev. 21:2). In that day, God’s original purpose and plan for Israel—to have a united, holy people belonging to Himself—will finally be fulfilled in the marriage of Christ and His church.

  136. Michael says:


    He could have cut the baptism book by 800 pages and not lost much…

  137. papiaslogia says:

    “.. John heard God’s people described as a group of 144,000 made up of the twelve tribes of Israel (Rev. 7:4–8). Yet when he looked again, he discovered that the same group was an innumerable crowd from every tribe and nation..”

    Um…..That’s not quite right.

    In Rev 14 the 144,000 show up again. They are separate from the multitude.

    They are believers in the Lamb and it would seem that He has a different job for them than the rest of those who believe during the Trib.

  138. Babylon's Dread says:

    My comments on the church in the Old Testament

    1. There was an assembly of believers in the OT
    2. There were people who were in the covenant in the OT
    3. There was genuine worship in the OT
    4. There was a body a CORPUS a corporate life in the OT
    5. There were numerous characteristics of the church in the OT


    The New Covenant Spirit was not the constituting identity of the people
    They were identified by TORAH written on stone
    We are identified by the SPIRIT crying out “Abba”
    There is a distinction that constitutes a real difference.

    However the NT church is the prophesied and fulfilled outcome of the covenants of Israel thus there is a continuity and a discontinuity.

    Israel in Christ and Gentiles in Christ are ONE and never two … Israel according to the flesh is simply not a beneficiary of the covenant blessings without Christ.

    The two programs idea is a canard… we will never resolve the debate over the future. It will have to play out in history

    The question is how shall we now live? That is not hard either …we love and proclaim the mystery of Christ till he comes

  139. papiaslogia says:

    “He could have cut the baptism book by 800 pages and not lost much”

    yeah – I have tried to plow through his “Backrgrounds..” book, but he gets “wordy”.

    I think it may be because he spends so much time reading the old guys. Frank James mentioned once that some of the Church Fathers are so wordy – ‘Why say something in 3 pages when you can say it in 5?” – or something to that effect.

    I’m reading Justin Martyrs “Dialogue with Trypho” and pull out a nugget every few chapters, but gee whiz man….edit thyself. 😉

  140. Babylon's Dread says:


    Apply the same logic to the Lion Lamb application of Jesus and you get a messed up Christology …

    When the 144k show up in chapter 14 they are still the innumerable multitude… because the numbers are not an amount they are a designation

    The job is always the same… the whole book of revelation is about the witness to Jesus carried on by the covenant people (church) and protected by God and overcoming every foe. The inability to see the use of numerical symbols is always blinding…

  141. Em says:

    it seems to me that all of our attempts to explain God’s design (not His plan of redemption) work off of assumptions that we have already made, i.e., man born with a body and soul and in need of a Spirit birth v. man born body, soul – a spirit in need of reviving, eternal security v loss of salvation (by choice)…. so many interpretations build off of other “interpretations”
    Is the Church a body of redeemed/Spirit-born souls a separate and apart sect of the history of those souls who down thru time have demonstrated their faith? One’s view – IMV – will be colored by other aspects of what they think they see in God’s design… thankfully, the only thing we have to get right today is the message that the cross brings us… IMHO

  142. Ixtlan says:


    Joshua 15 and Joshua 21 contradict each other. That creates some difficulty, but it is clear that Israel did not conquer all of the land. There are a few other passages that indicate that as well, I don’t have time to look them up.

    Secondly, the geographical description of the land promised in Genesis 15 is much larger than what is described in the entire book of Joshua.

    Therefore what is being said in Joshua 21 could be interpreted as a general description of the land the conquered, but nothing more. The Genesis 15 promise is outside the scope of Joshua and the text in Joshua 21 cannot be used as a proof text to claim that all the land promises are now fulfilled.

  143. Xenia says:

    Papias, I am reading a conversation that St. John Chrysostom recreated that he had with St. Basil the Great, his best friend, when the news came that they were both going to be ordained. Neither wanted this; both felt the burden of priesthood was too great for them to bear because they both had low opinions of themselves. So St. John hid; Basil wound up ordained and was pretty mad a St. John for hiding. The conversation is pages and pages and PAGES of St. John justifying why he tricked his dear friend, saying that Basil was worthy while he, St. John was not. It just goes on and ON. I am only a third of the way through it. All’s I can say is folks back then had long attention spans.

    As to the Church, I think the belief that the Church was present in the Old Testament is held by the same people who, like myself, believe that the Church is Israel nowadays. We would define “Church” as all those who are believers in God and in His Messiah. This would include angels, too.

    I remember history charts in Sunday school that portrayed all the dispensations. What the chart labeled “The Church Age” (AKA “The Great Parenthesis”) an Amil chart would label “The Millennium.”

  144. Xenia says:

    I am remembering conversations I had with a particular flavor of dispensationalist who believed that Christ offered the Kingdom to the Jews, who turned Him down, and so then went to Plan B, the gentile Church. So this whole “Church Age,” to them, is a deviation from God’s Plan A. To these folks, the whole enchilada is about the Jews and we gentiles only get into the picture to sort of rub the Jews noses into it until they have a mass conversion.

    I think this group called themselves “Mid-Acts Dispensationalists.”

    Is this common or are they fringe?

  145. Babylon's Dread says:


    I think those passages do not contradict any more than saying you and I are holy despite our sin contradicts …

    We are holy because of God’s action and it is not nullified by our weak apprehension

    The land promise was completely fulfilled and nothing was left but the mop up of the Jebusites. They were already conquered and defeated.

    There is no contradiction …

    Ps 110 says that the son will REIGN in the midst of his enemies.

    The land promise is fulfilled … done …. finished…

  146. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Even if I grant that (and I don’t) I also stated that Paul interpreted the land promises to be the whole world – and that has been delivered to the new Israel … Jesus Christ.

    I don’t see how you want to make the interpretation to be “the land conquered” when the text calls it “all the land promised and given”. But hey, who am I to argue? 😉

  147. Xenia says:

    if this is the case….

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up… 2 Peter 3:10

    …. how can any land promises be eternal?

  148. papiaslogia says:

    Dread “When the 144k show up in chapter 14 they are still the innumerable multitude… because the numbers are not an amount they are a designation”

    I love you brother.

    When the 144k show up in Rev 14 – they are mentioned twice. And look at the listing of their “qualifications”.

    That’s not part of the multitudes – that’s part of what makes them different than the multitude, who is addressed in verses 12-13.

    Not better – just different.

    Kind of like the difference between Veni Domine’s “The Chronicle of the 7 Seals” (which is a 21 minute plus epic song) versus Saviour Machines 3 Album “Legend” series of the Book of Revelation. While they are both good, there’s not many days that I want to listen to these 3 albums in a row – so I gotta attach the Veni Domine song …

  149. Steve Wright says:

    My final comment, not yet said.

    When Peter is critical of those who deny the 2nd Coming of the Lord in judgement, he says they are willingly ignorant of the fact that God has already once judged the entire world…and though that first judgement was by a flood (not to be repeated)…nonetheless, the idea that God would intervene from the heavens to judge the entire world should NOT be seen as a crazy thought.

    I say that because if God had not already shown His ability and willingness to rapture a couple different guys from this earth, who never saw death, then maybe the rapture of the Church would be hard to believe. But God will simply be doing what He already has done.

    In addition, what is usually missing from the discussion is there can be zero argument that there is a “rapture” aka “catching up” aka “harpadzo” of those who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord. Even the amill has to admit to that eventuality at some point, though the explanation I have always heard is that we meet the Lord in the air and then shoot right on back down.

    I must say that in teaching verse by verse through the entire Bible, going line by line in books like Jeremiah and Isaiah, all the dozens and dozens of chapters…and seeing God’s specific promises often made to Israel, concerning the land and their living there, it just is beyond my willingness and ability to twist those verses to find complete fulfillment already in history – not to mention any fulfillment when God speaks of “forever” which I think lasts longer than 70 A.D.

    I’d bail on the view if I could. I bailed on the typical baptism of the Spirit, 2nd blessing, idea after holding to it for years in CC – because I was convinced otherwise upon greater examination of the Scripture.

    At the same time, I was confirmed in my view of the permanency of the spiritual gifts for today, despite my seminary’s views, once more by doing the extensive homework, reading the arguments for and against (and of course writing a 100 page thesis on the topic)

    That’s where I stand here. As I listen to the explanations that MLD, Dread and others have come to hold, how they explain things…it just confirms me more and more in my view. I assume my explanations do the same for them..who knows.

    But I’m going to die holding to the belief in verbal plenary inspiration. The WORDS, ALL of them, inspired by God. All important to understanding…and God intended to communicate clearly with words and language in normal literary fashion. Yes, hyperbole, metaphors are part of it. But if I read “tribe of Asher” and every time it means someone from the Jewish tribe of Asher, I’m going to read it that way in Revelation too.

    Same with Israel. Same with Jerusalem. Same with Church. and on and on and on.

  150. Bob Sweat says:

    I began reading PP back in 2006. When I first started reading posts from BD and MLD that dealt with eschatology, it caused me to re-think my own position. Now after almost 9 years, I believe they make more sense than anyone.

    I was looking at becoming a CC pastor 6 years ago, I told one of the CC pastors that I was talking to that I wasn’t sure I could sign off on their end times position, now I know that I couldn’t. But there are other reasons as well.

    Having said that, I still don’t bleed Dodger blue.

    Now a heretic Bob

  151. Michael says:


    In answer to your question, there are innumerable variations of dispensationalism these days.

    As more and more people are exposed to different traditions and beliefs eschatologically a lot of modifications have been made.

  152. Xenia says:

    It is a mistake, Steve, to say that those who do not agree with you do not agree with “verbal, plenary inspiration.”

    All words are inspired. I agree, even the little word “is,” as in

    “This is my body, which was broken for you.”

    And “does,” as in

    “Baptism does now save us.”

    No one takes every word literally, otherwise God has wings, etc. We all know this.

    How we decide which inspired words are to be taken literally and which to be taken figuratively, that’s the issue.

    But it is wrong to say that those who don’t hold to dispensationalism don’t believe every word of the Bible is entirely inspired by God.

  153. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “But I’m going to die holding to the belief in verbal plenary inspiration. The WORDS, ALL of them, inspired by God. All important to understanding…and God intended to communicate clearly with words and language in normal literary fashion.”

    Do you? Would this include “this is my body … this is my blood”? or will the dancing begin. I agree with you, God means something with his words – however perhaps some of his words are symbolic to point to a greater meaning..

    Hey, are the 144K really 40yr old virgins? 🙂 or is that really something to do with being faithful to God?

  154. Michael says:


    I think the value of this site in regards to theology is that people do get exposed to different views…espoused by people they already like and consider to be fellow Christians,

  155. papiaslogia says:

    “Hey, are the 144K really 40yr old virgins? 🙂 or is that really something to do with being faithful to God?”

    Talk about 144,000 upset Jewish mothers! All of them saying to their sons – “I know a nice Jewish girl for you…”

    Sorry – watched “Fiddler” the other day…..

  156. Michael says:

    ” The anti-Christ must come first”…

    We all dance…different tunes…

  157. Xenia says:

    I do remember hearing CC pastors saying that if you don’t hold to the pre-mil rapture theory of end times, you do not believe the Bible is really true. Heard that numerous times.

    I think everyone interested in this stuff ought to read the most excellent book written by Mr. Menn, J2thePerson’s pop. No one has to change their view but at the very least, they could realize that “those others” have Bible behind their views, too.

    How many times have I heard variations on the following conversation, back in the day:

    Congregant: Hey pastor, my neighbor doesn’t believe in the Rapture! What’s up with that?

    Pastor: They probably belong to some dead liberal main-line denomination that doesn’t believe the inerrancy of the Bible. Pray for their salvation..

  158. papiaslogia says:

    I’m nowhere near as staunch on eschatology as I used to be since being here (9 years now?).
    No longer is a deal breaker for fellowship – not sure that it ever was.
    As long as we keeps it respectable.

    With that – I gotta get back to work 🙂

  159. Michael says:

    Xenia @ 158…we’ve heard it over and over again.
    It’s not just premill…you have to be pretrib.

    Jonathan Menn’s “Biblical Eschatology” is the best.

  160. Ixtlan says:

    The narrative in Joshua does not add to the promise in Genesis 15.

    Genesis 15:18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—

    Israel has never had control of all that land. One day, Israel will, so I contend the land promise is not fulfilled. It is still open, There are many illusions to this truth that are also found in Isaiah, since the Jews did not completely fulfill all the land promises post-exilic, the promise still remain. Furthermore, post-exilic prophets tell of Israel in the land in the latter days, as did Moses in Deuteronomy 4.

    Were the land promises fulfilled in 1948? I’m not convinced they were. The second question is who is Israel, and no, I’m not a believer in replacement theology. In a real sense the church becomes the Israel of God, but that still does not bring the promises ( in this discussion the land) God made to the seed to completion, they are yet to be fulfilled.

    Have a great day.

  161. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I too get disgusted by replacement theology. I can’t see straight when the rapture theology people continually replace Jesus Christ with Israel.

  162. Babylon's Dread says:


    The burden is upon you because I have never seen a more explicit claim than Josh 21 43-45 and you have offered no explanation

  163. Linda Pappas says:


    Although I lean towards the mid-trib more than any other, I am in total support and agreement of your last comment.

    I think the issue is that if any should do a shift on this topic, it would also mean a shift elsewhere, including a changed a person’s perspective regarding the Jews and the land He promised to united the two kingdoms again and to bring them back into their land as one nation, one people, and one Israel.

  164. Linda Pappas says:

    “including a change in a person’s perspective”

  165. Ixtlan says:

    Babylon’s Dread,

    And I think I met the challenge.

    There is an apparent contradiction in the Joshua narrative. The resolution either pertains to what God promised to the 2nd generation (which I lean towards), or all does not mean complete. Joshua 21:45 may give us a clue since it speaks about good words spoken to Israel, not promises given to Abraham and his seed. Joshua narrative is unmistakeably national Israel, the promises to Abraham are not. The term “house of Israel” fits best into a nationalistic, material category, the term seed of Abraham is spiritual in nature and includes all the nations.

    The Joshua narrative does not describe the land promise given in Genesis 15, that is obvious and it is something you cannot deny.

    Moses, Isaiah, and the post-exilic prophets all describe a re-gathering of Israel in the latter days, which I see as a futurist interpretation fits best.

    You guys are so wrapped up in anti-dispensationalism that you cannot see what’s right in front of you.

  166. Xenia says:

    I think it is entirely possible that some day the state of Israel might wind up owing all the land promised in the Old Testament. I think that would be a lovely fulfillment of prophecy.

    But what it would ultimately mean <—- that is the rub.

  167. Xenia says:

    owing should read owning.

    I hate to make a post just to fix a typo but it changed the meaning so I had to.

  168. Em says:

    “There are solid, substantive, BIBLICAL reasons for seeing things as I have expressed here tonight in my handful of posts. Sure there are other views…but it is tiring to hear the idea that either a) dispensationalists are nuts who have no clue how to read a Bible or to b) only be given a grudging acceptance that at least we are short of heresy” amen. Pastor Steve

    faith doesn’t come “naturally” to me, i never bought into the Hal Lindsey’s “the end is here,” excitement or some of the other exploitation that produced opportunistic shallow theology- that said, the simple faith of a child implies a growing understanding and i don’t cast any aspersions on those newborns who have gone thru those teachings and come out the other side… i can understand their need for solid, time tested teaching

    but please don’t assume that adherents to what Pastor Steve is outlining so well are without discernment – short in either human or spiritual I.Q.s – some of us maybe, but not all 🙂

  169. Bob says:

    Well it spilled over as I said prophetically in a previous thread, things devolve into arguments about who is Israel and how do God’s promises stand up today.

    Here is what I know to be true, all of us will have an end to our “age” and that means we will see God. Some Levites, of Jesus day, did no teven believe there was life after death and there are many Jews who feel the same today and yet they believe in God. What’s the point? None, really.

    It is highly likely all of those who post here will see physical death before the return of Messiah Jesus and I have grown to not really care if a rapture takes place first, mid or at the same time. What is important to me is how I love God and walk in this age according to His ways. If Jesus is my Messiah and Lord, how do I walk and which way will I take?

    I just spent the morning with a man I have known for 20 years who is going through a divorce and for some reason the last thing on our minds was, “will there be a rapture?”

    Get a life walking with Jesus!

  170. Bob says:

    BTW I will support Israel and any other “political” nation whose basic ideals are loving others as God loved them first.

    Why can’t I support many of the nations surrounding them, Israel? The same reasons why I don’t support those in this USA who back murders and terrorists in the name of “democracy”. I do not believe sending drones to hover over and take out our enemy is a whole lot different than what many of them are doing. The USA just happens to have the technology to do it.

    Bless all of you.

    I don’t think a consensus on Israel or rapture will take place. What will happen is many will become convinced those who are so possessed by their positions, on any side, are probably fundamentally wrong. I’ve joined that crowd.

  171. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I still wait for the answer to the question I asked months ago on this topic – and everyone became silent.

    The whole Idea of a millennial kingdom rests on some passage / promise about Jesus sitting on David’s throne. But Peter in Acts 2 makes it perfectly clear that since the ascension that is exactly what Jesus has been doing.

    Why is the rapture crowd interpretation – “this doesn’t count.”

  172. Xenia says:

    Here’s something to think about. The prophet Daniel says that the Saints will rule someday. This is commonly interpreted to mean that the Saints (a group that usually includes the preacher) will be ruling during the Millennium. Common joke: “I hope the Lord gives me Maui.”

    But if the Millennium is now, the so-called “Church Age,” are the Saints ruling? Who might these people be?

    Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High (Daniel 7:27).

  173. Ixtlan says:

    Nice eisegetical work!

  174. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Right from the text of Acts 2;
    “29 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.”

    The sitting on David’s throne was never to be some Indiana Jones thing where they go find David’s actual throne – it always meant that Jesus would be raised to rule at the right hand of the Father.

  175. Babylon's Dread says:


    There are many more problems with the land promise…
    Such as the Jewish church of the first century showing zero interest in the land even while they were an occupied people, the clear tone of the apostles that what Jesus had done has inaugurated the kingdom and fulfilled the covenant, the absence of any post exilic textual support for another return to the land. Dispensationalism had a bad beginning (in a charismatic meeting) 😉 and a tragic death by many cuts. The encroachment of the preterist crowd upon the popular mind, the failure to capture the interest of the younger generation. It is fad that has run its course

    As for accusing MLD of eisegesis that is a way of not answering him… the sermon of Peter destroys both cessationism (the dispensational claim) and the faulty claim about Jesus not being enthroned. I will ask you with Stephen … what kind of house will you build for the Lord since heaven is his throne and earth his footstool … an earthly millennium looks very queer as a claim that Jesus is somehow not reigning here and now in the “midst of his enemies.

    As for your second generation claim … the darling of dispensational exegesis is to invent another category that allows redefinitions to reclaim verses. Dispensationalism has a category of every verse.

    Next you tell me with John Hagee that God has earthly people (sand) and heavenly people (stars) the hyperbolic buffoon of categories.

  176. Ixtlan says:

    “As for your second generation claim … the darling of dispensational exegesis is to invent another category that allows redefinitions to reclaim verses.”

    This isn’t another category, Deuteronomy is a second giving of the covenant to the younger generation. It is a common understanding of the text. You should know that.

    It goes back to the question, who is the seed?

  177. Em says:

    “7 ways to pray when you’re stuck”
    this is IMO a good, succinct (not only can i spell it, i know what it means) useful list
    perhaps we’re dwelling too much on God’s schedule of events?
    vengeance is Mine, I will repay, God says – i use to feel like a hypocrite praying for my enemies…as i took comfort in God’s promise to “repay”…
    It has taken me this lifetime to bring hell into focus as a reality that most of the race are less than a hundred years from sealing the promise of their being sent there. That is perhaps the explanation for God‘s seemingly slow time schedule – the fact of hell.
    now i don’t know exactly what hell is or how many levels it has, but the fact of it finally has me praying honestly for my enemies – for repentance

    to quote an old timer of days gone by here… “just sayin” cuz i can

  178. Em says:

    i have a habit of following the threads developed from what Michael posts and i miss a lot of good stuff on Link day

    Buechner on conversion is another link that starts me thinking and raises a lot of thots on just what i mean when i declare that i’ve been born again… i definitely was converted first,..

    did i killed the thread…?… not sure i’m sorry bout that

    God keep

  179. filbertz says:

    I’m a little surprised that 179 comments into the game, no one has bonked Laurie for his sloppy tweet on Israel. In an effort to be cute or something, he misquotes Gen. 12:3. The promise was to Abraham, not the future nation which would be born to him from promise.

  180. brian says:

    Anyone else here struggle with sciatic nerve issues?

  181. Babylon's Dread says:


    “Moses, Isaiah, and the post-exilic prophets all describe a re-gathering of Israel in the latter days, which I see as a futurist interpretation fits best.”

    This is the crux of much of this argument … as I would argue there are no unfulfilled land restoration promises. Working through this with patience would be worthwhile.

    I am fascinated by your claim that the land promises to Abraham and to Israel are at variance. Are you suggesting they are intentionally different?

  182. Babs,
    I am sure there is a fold out dispensationalist chart that thoroughly explains their position on the land promise

  183. Bob says:


    You’re clever!

    I got it and I bet everyone else just thinks you’re complaining about your health.

    To this day a certain group of people still butcher their meat in remembrance of that.

    Thank you!

    It’s in the name!

  184. brian says:

    Actually bob I am not that clever I am just having a hard time walking, getting out of bet, got stuck in my car the other day and had to wait for some time just to get out of it. I am actually complaining about my about my health, I had to ask for help it made me ill. I wish it was just an apologetic claim I really am scared. If I cant walk or work I will become a burden. I will not allow that.

  185. Linda Pappas says:


    Yes, I do. Permanent herniated L-4 and L-5 disc. due to earlier years in gymnastics and other athletics activities, such as horseback riding, tennis, and lifting weights.

    However, I take Glucosomine with MSM—-now 2 tablets (1500 mg) once-one time per week.

    History: Used to be where I would go in every few years to get the spinal injections, and even then, about every 3-4 months would suffer excruciating pain, unable to walk, having to crawl just to get to the bathroom, missing work, having to lay on the floor to sleep or even being able to sleep. Someone told me about this vitamin or mineral. Of course, was resistant, but then did some research on it and found out the military gives it to all their troops as they suffer back and joint pain due to the constant requirements and nature of staying “fit.” So, I tried it, first taking it as suggested on the container, then was able to ease off to what I mentioned in the above.

  186. brian says:

    Thanks Linda mine started when I got between a metal chair and a client when another client wanted to kill him. Then there was the stairs being hit on an almost daily basis and finally caught a student in order to keep him from basically breaking his neck. Yes the crawling is understood very well. I will look into the info.

  187. Babylon's Dread says:

    When you have a datable system, and dispensationalism has been dated over and over, you have a shelf life. It is near expiration. The heyday of dispensationalism is over but it is a seven headed monster so when you cut one off you can expect it to revive. Still, the thing blossomed and now is withering.

  188. Michael says:


    I think that the pretrib theory is losing ground fast…many of the younger pastors in bastions of the doctrine like CC are rethinking their eschatology.

    A lot of that is due to the influence of N.T. Wright… and a lot is due to the fact that every sign of the times in the last 40 years has turned out not be a sign at all.

  189. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I always like to point out that when JN Darbey brought his dispensationalism to the good old USA he brought it to the Northeast – the same place that 20 yrs earlier bought into and delivered to the country, Mormonism – JWs – Christian Science.

    It seems like a test market – if you can get your weird teachings past them, well you can take your show to Broadway.

  190. Em says:

    “if i can’t walk or work…” brian, i went thru the same mental process early this winter when i stepped in a chuckhole that was snow covered and wrenched my 78 year old knee – i’ve always been fairly agile and durable and so have little patience with my body when it interferes with my life 🙂 … while i don’t begin to claim to going thru what you’re dealing with, i do know that intense, unrelenting nerve pain brings one to their knees mentally as well as physically – folks who keep on keeping on, giving a good account of themselves always humble me (both the grouches and the pollyannas) you’re more hero than you know – praying

  191. Em says:

    listened to an old J Vernon McGee radio broadcast early this a.m., he expressed impatience with the end-is-near movement of the day (1960’s, i’m guessing)… he pointed out that the last days (end times… whatever the label is)… will be so intense that there won’t be any room for speculation

  192. filbertz says:

    any other social ills you’d like to link to the coming of dispensationalism…polio? rickets? cooties? You’re connecting dots that have no business being linked because of your hobby-horse hatred of all things dispy. It’s wearing thin.

  193. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    it’s nice to hear your opinion.

  194. filbertz says:


  195. Muff Potter says:

    On Christians in the public square:

    I’ll keep it short and sweet. What the Chaplain did was no more the establishment of a State Religion than would be a Starbucks in the Capitol Rotunda the establishment of a ‘State Coffee’. All the whiny little PC Parakeets who get their drawers in a dither over every alleged breach of Jefferson’s Wall of Separation need to relax their sphincters, get over themselves, learn to live and let live, and realize that the right to freedom of expression in the Public Square does not exist only at the pleasure of the State. That right is inalienable

  196. Babylon's Dread says:

    All the years I have posted here I don’t think I have EVER seen Filbertz get testy … I have no doubt the apocalypse has dawned. MLD you have done that which nothing else has done. My man filbertz as snapped. The world will never be right again.

  197. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well it’s a good thing that I did not say that dispensationalism was a similar distraction along the lines of the Word Faith movement. 😉

  198. Ixtlan says:


    That is the stupidest thing I’ve ever read on this blog. This conversation is no longer worth having.

  199. filbertz says:

    perhaps I’ll change my name to Hacklez 😉

  200. Babylon's Dread says:

    @201 Indeed

  201. filbertz says:

    I think our dear lutheran friend has the hide of a rhino and remains oblivious to us mere birds pecking on his back…


  202. Ixtlan,
    As we would probably all agree looking at the Word Faith movement – just because a point of view has a large following, does not make it a legitimate alternative view.

    Now surely you don’t want to be a part of a discussion that holds all ‘spiritual’ views are equal and legitimate, do you? I know I couldn’t be a part of that.

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