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102 Responses

  1. Neo says:

    Awesome primer on Patrick. Gonna rip it off for my radio program today. Thanks…

    He was neither Brit, nor a Church proclaimed Saint, nor were there any snakes in Ireland!

    Lol Love it!

  2. Neo says:

    My first, FIRST

  3. Michael says:


    Congrats… 🙂

  4. Alex says:

    Thanks Michael.

  5. J.U. says:

    Glad you chose to speak out. “Afraid of the loss of friends and readers…it’s already happened once because of the same issue.” I don’t think anyone you “lose” because you speak out is really a “friend.”

    I understand your desire for readers as it is a measure of the success of your blog. But being true to your heart and soul is always more important.

    I think it is your heart that attracts so many friends AND readers. Keep on speaking out Michael. A voice crying out in the wilderness is heard. Others will join that chorus.

  6. Michael says:


    Thanks…I had a dark night of the soul last night.
    Kept hearing that verse about gaining the world and losing your soul…my soul is intact now.

  7. Anne says:

    Thank you, Michael, for posting the link to Urrea’s talk! Encourages me to hear someone else with the courage to shine light on these issues. Bowden would be pleased that others continue to carry the torch.

  8. Michael says:


    I hope so.

  9. Paige says:

    Thanks for the links Michael. Glad your soul is intact today! 😀 Haven’t watched the Ted talk yet…but will…

    The post about When the Lions win is wonderful.

    The articles about g@y marriage is very helpful. The LBGT agenda up here is strong. Very uncomfortable for me….. Good to read the various perspectives on the subject.

    Have a blessed week….

  10. Michael says:


    Thank you…I thought you would like the lions article… 🙂

  11. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I would go to a gay wedding if they were close friends / family. Probably not for a casual acquaintance or co worker.

    I would go to celebrate their life – not their choices or sin.

  12. Michael says:


    I concur…

  13. Scott says:

    Syrian, Iraqi Christians plead for international assistance.

  14. Scott says:

    From the article I linked to:
    “Iman Chamoun, a 42-year-old woman, fled the Iraqi city of Mosul around nine months ago, after IS militants swept in.

    “They took everything, the house, furniture, they even took the doors. The work of 25 years was lost in one minute… It’s like living a dream, a nightmare,” she said.
    She said the family of seven fled without any money or belongings and is struggling in Lebanon to make ends meet.

    “But we are Christians, despite everything we give thanks to God,” she said.”

  15. dswoager says:

    I appreciated the TED video.

    I think that I got the message that he was hoping for me to come away with.

    It’s really hard to believe that there are two sides to this issue.

    Granted, I’m not going out of my way to find out what the other side is all up in arms about, so maybe it is a Proverbs 18:17 situation, but wow.

  16. Babylon's Dread says:


    **Though Anderson spends plenty of time urging her readers to create their own understanding of how their sex lives should work, she spends even more time telling them how she thinks their sex lives should work. By the time she’s done specifying everything that must be part of this sexual ethic we’re supposed to create, about the only thing that’s left up to us is whether we want the light on or off.**

    Um, actually candles… LOL

  17. Michael says:


    Thanks for watching.
    When I was advising on how to grow a website, I neglected to mention how to kill one.
    Posting videos like that is a good starting place for the end. 🙂

  18. Michael says:


    That article is the natural evolution of sexual mores in the church.
    This is how many live…the author just decided to come clean and write it down…

  19. Em says:

    i am listening to the Ted talk as best i can… keeps stopping and not loading… he seems to make the case that we must see our nation as the refuge for the children who are victims of evil… okay, he’s right about that… we don’t have a what i would call a viable infrastructure set up for this, does he have a plan?
    the only thing about this man that annoys me is that, for all his good works and compassion, he doesn’t seem to have a plan to fix this either… he seems to just want to vent about the heartless, selfish border patrollers
    i pray for the brave souls south of the border who are risking their lives trying to do something as the evil metastasizes

  20. Michael says:


    These talks are time limited.
    Luis has an excellent relationship with the Border Patrol…his work with them on the “Devil’s Highway” made them fans for life.
    We will not solve this problem as long as people like me are afraid to even discuss it…

  21. victorious says:


    Thank you for the Ted Talk . Bowden was necessary but for me hard to bear because he seemed weighted towards the abysmal.

    With this Ted talk it easier to descend into the abyss because the descent is led by the light of Christ. Yes , that light penetrates the well defended borders of my closed heart while exposing the needs of my “American” neighbors; but that light also highlights the grace, love and hope that is available for me and then.
    These are the pivotal talking points that I hope to keep alive in my heart with the Lord and with others.
    “It is not an immigration issue but a refugee issue.
    ” The paradigm is not going to shift but the pardigm has already shifted. You cannot stop a train that has already left the station.”
    WWJD = “Who Would Jesus Deport”

    The politicians do not know what is going on but the busboys and maids do.
    I might gain limited access to a politician but, I can develop relationships with the busboys and maids.

  22. Em says:

    what do we discuss, the victims or the perpetrators (too kind a word)? do we discuss the good Samaritan or the thieves… or the Pharisees and Sadducees? just pndering

  23. Xenia says:

    No church ever recognized St. Patrick as an official say?

    Not true.

  24. Xenia says:

    official “saint,” not say.

  25. Xenia says:

    Our father among the saints Patrick of Ireland, Bishop of Armagh and Enlightener of Ireland, was born a Briton. Captured and brought to Ireland as a slave, he escaped and returned home. Later, he returned to Ireland, bringing Christianity to its people. His feast day is March 17.

    from orthodoxwiki

  26. victorious says:

    Em that is a great question .
    I think we can eventually discuss all parties as long as we center on the walk and talk of the Samaritan which was the point of Jesus parable. Not “who is my neighbor” but, “what kind of neighbor will I be”?
    Neighbors can speak about all parties and issues because neighbors speak from the perspective of one who is actively engaged in the solution even while trying to understand all the dynamics of the underlying problem.

  27. Xenia says:

    And no, I would never attend a homosexual “wedding.” Just as Michael is more afraid of denying his faith than he is of us, I am more afraid of denying my faith than I am of friends and relatives I might offend by not attending a celebration of perversion.

  28. dswoager says:

    I hate to say it, but I find it to be an issue that is hard for me to interface with since it is really not one that is in my face on a regular basis. I get a similar feeling as I do for the woman that Scott was quoting above from Iraq. I feel terrible that these things are happening, and would like to help in some way, but I have no idea where to start.

    Even more terrible probably, there are probably thousands of causes that I could throw what little weight I have behind, and all of them take energy and resources, and are varying degrees of completely heart breaking… how do you choose?

  29. EricL says:

    BD @16,
    That new sex book is published by Jericho Books, an imprint aimed at the emergent/ neo-lib folks. Its sister imprint, Faith Words, publishes lots of better-known Christian celebrity leaders. As far as I can tell, both imprints are coming out of the same offices in Nashville. Both are owned by one the Big5 Publishers out NYC.

    It is all about what sells these days. Spiritual Discernment is becoming the lost spiritual gift.

  30. victorious says:

    Considering the courage, compassion and convictions of Patrick and the paradigm change that His Gospel proclamation, disciple making and church planting efforts brought to Ireland against the backdrop of the Ted Talk and where I live and who I live amongst today

  31. Em says:

    i feel that the issue of evil – serious evil such as Luis Urrea lays out in his Ted talk – in the world today will not be solved until Christ returns… the O.T. expectation of God bringing the hammer down on an evil nation and exterminating it has nothing to do with His Kingdom and, yet, in my humanity the only answer that i can see to the defeat of Mexican warlords and ISIS is a bloodbath of war that sane men rightly say, don’t go there or we’ll exterminate the race (an ISIS goal)
    do we as Christians just bind wounds and feel guilty for keeping our heads down?
    the link above, “Should we pray the imprecatory Psalms” seems to me to be very germane to what the Ted video is presenting – to us as Christians

  32. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I don’t know about sainthood, but I’ll bet both many Lutherans and Baptists will be drinking green beer today. 😉

  33. EricL says:

    Oh, and notice that while Christianity Today has enough of a backbone to call out a book full of bad theology (though they still couch the objections in nice words), they would never dare to call out the publisher for even printing such junk. Don’t dare offend one of your advertisers or the big name leaders who are its authors.

    Michael, you have far more courage and integrity than all of CT.

  34. Xenia says:

    Patrick was probably British, too, although his family was Romanized.

    For such a short video, they sure made a lot of mistakes.

    Just based on this video I would say that “Christian History Made Easy” is one of those outfits that imagines itself to be a myth-buster, of the “Nothing your history teacher taught you is true” variety.

  35. Babylon's Dread says:

    As I read online, listen to podcasts, dialogue with the younger generation and follow the trends I conclude that we have been taken into Babylon while we were sleeping. But I still feel no despair.

  36. London says:

    I agree with MLD and Michael on the wedding thing. I probably wouldn’t stick around for the party though.
    It’s the same with heterosexual couples for me. If I can go to the service and not interact with people afterward, I’m more likely to go.

  37. dswoager says:

    MLD, I have a nice double stout here that will be a Guinness for the day if anyone asks.

  38. Michael says:


    Those are good observations and better take aways.
    Bowden and Urea were friends and often appeared together for panel discussions at universities and such.
    Bowden would get frustrated at Urrea because he has maintained a hopefulness in the midst of hell.
    My teacher spent too long staring into the abyss without a proper light…

  39. Xenia says:

    My teacher spent too long staring into the abyss without a proper light…<<<

    That is a rather profound statement, Michael, which can be applied to many situations.

  40. Michael says:


    The sneaky thing about CT is that they published the article at all…that exposure was priceless for the author.
    It was a backhanded endorsement that will sell many books…

  41. Em says:

    #26 – victorious, great point about neighbors – IMO

    #27 – AMEN AMEN, so glad for the reminder, sister Xenia

  42. Michael says:

    “My teacher spent too long staring into the abyss without a proper light…”
    “That is a rather profound statement, Michael, which can be applied to many situations.”

    The irony isn’t lost on me, my friend… 🙂

  43. victorious says:

    Em- “binding wounds” Imo is the pivotal place of establishing a beachhead in the advance of the Kingdom. Lives are touched and the healing is set in motion; families are reconciled and renewed and the forever family of our God is expanded and blessed. ISIS, the cartels, the Multi National Corps and the fraternities of cowardly politicians cannot be eliminated until the appearance of Christ ; but, they can invaded and infiltrated if we believe in the mustard seed conspiracy described by Jesus.

  44. Xenia says:

    My response to border issues is to show the love of Christ to the refugees that come to my town and become my neighbors. This is something we can all do and relieves the feeling of helplessness many experience when they read about border issues and similar type tragedies all around the world.

  45. Michael says:


    Your #44 is the hope I have.
    Thank you.

  46. victorious says:

    Thanks for the story about Urrea and Bowden speaking together on the same issue. It gives hope for another avenue of partnership where the sons of light can be present in the middle of conflict without damning or dominating. Good stuff for me to be aware of and learn from.

  47. Xenia says:

    Quite off-topic but I know some of you listen to Ancient Faith Radio and may be familiar with the podcasts of Fr. Thomas Hopko. He is dying, literally gasping his last breaths. He has congestive heart failure but is very much at peace. Your prayers for him and his family would be appreciated. He is a good man of God and his writings and lectures have been very, very helpful to me.

  48. Jim says:

    I went to an non-legal gay wedding (later ratified in another state). Far more straight guests than gay, and we all went home straight.

    I’m going to watch the Ted talk later tonight.

  49. brian says:

    Thanks for all the links the Evolution one was helpful as was the comments section from those who do not hold to the validity of the Theory of Evolution. I found their points helpful. Have a nice day.

  50. dswoager says:

    This ended up branching off if a link that MLD shared in last week’s linkathon, and Kevin H brought me to mind of the metaphor being used, so thought I would share now that things have died down a bit.

  51. Erik says:

    @ 11

    Celebrate there “life” but not choices or sin. Where is that in scripture?
    Would Jesus show up to a homosexual marriage today between Rod and Rob in celebration of there life?

    Jesus said you are dead while you are alive.

    If this isn’t spirit of the world entering to the church, I don’t know what is.

  52. Erik – I remember Jesus telling us not to judge.

    Only 2 types of people can judge – (1) Jesus & (2) civil judges. Which are you?

    I also remember Jesus celebrating the lives of tax collectors, sinners and prostitutes.

  53. Jim says:


    Let’s pretend that I agree with you that this young couple are in sin. Other Christians were invited who chose to not attend. Some lied and were “busy” that day.

    Understand that young American gays KNOW that you consider them an abomination. Pretending that I agree with you, should I have told them that I would not attend their abominable event, or should I have become “busy”?

    I love these kids, and they love me enough to invite this old guy and his wife to their wedding. I stuck out like a old, sore thumb, but we were treated as honored guests. Another old guy and his wife were invited, but he folded his arms and said “no”.

    When tragedy invades their world, because life happens, and they want to talk to an old Christian guy who loves them, do you think they’ll call me, or the guy who didn’t come?

  54. Anne says:

    Well said, Jim.

  55. Erunner says:

    Thanks for the video Michael. Urrea brought his points home powerfully. It brought to mind a few historical events. The first was the story of the S.S. St. Louis during WW2 that was sent to Cuba with 900 Jews and they were turned away and in the midst of the war our nation also turned them away. The whole thing was a farce Germany had concocted.

    Present day with the emergence of ISIS the country of Jordan has brought in scores of refugees at a great cost. Why? Because it’s the right thing to do.

    If we as a nation lose our way a huge reason will be because we have placed the political above the Biblical. I understand most believe we lost our way years or even decades ago.

    Hopefully Creflo and Taffi get their jet so they can take the gospel to the less fortunate in our world. Dig deep and give sacrificially…..

  56. EricL says:

    I finally watched the TED talk video. I’ll share my reaction, for what it’s worth.

    He raised some good points. Some really good points, but he also blew any chance to make converts to his cause. His dislike for the “opposition” comes out as he shows disdain, builds straw-man misrepresentations of their views, and plays loose with some of his facts. There was no need for any of that showmanship, for his topic is heart-wrenching enough. His “Who Would Jesus Deport” line is great and thought-provoking, but I doubt few opponents will listen long enough to hear that line. He is preaching to the choir.

    He reminds me of many evangelical/ fundamentalists and their approach to the “opposition”, be they heathens or the cults. They speak words that might excite the in-crowd but it doesn’t reach those who need to be convinced to change their mindset.

    He understands the plights of those fleeing terrible places, but he seems totally ignorant of the fears and concerns of the people who he thinks should embrace these strangers. Instead of mocking those Americans, why not address their concerns and alleviate their fears? Why not call them to be selfless for the sake of the suffering but also admit that there are some wolves coming up mixed in with the sheep and propose a way to get them separated?

    This is a vitally important topic because it involves lives. OK, end of my rant and good night.

  57. London says:

    My friends living with some Kurds in Iraq. They have come to know and serve 23 IDP families who are living in an abandoned building near them.
    Last month, she asked folks to pitch in for an eye removal surgery and glass eye for an 11 year old girl who’s mom is now a widow with 8 kids.
    Now we are lucky enough to get to send english books to a 9 year old who desperately misses being able to go to school where he was learning the language along with his other classes.
    I’m asking the kids I know for their opinions. Ended up having a great chat with the 8 year old down the street about his advice on books (Ferdinand the bull and Pete the Cat).
    Evil gets all the headlines, but it’s not the whole story as long as there’s those who do good.
    I think about that little girl with the diseased eye. She would never had the chance to have that operation had her family not been chased from their home. Who knows who she will become in her lifetime…it’s hope that wins the day.

  58. Erik says:

    Lets take a look at what Rabbi Martin Luther said:
    “I for my part do not enjoy dealing with this passage, because so far the ears of the Germans are innocent of and uncontaminated by this monstrous depravity; …The Carthusian monks deserve to be hated because they were the first to bring this terrible pollution into Germany from the monasteries of Italy. (Luther’s Works, Vol. 3, 251-25
    The coupling of two males is a very shameful thing – Terullian
    Do you be deceived, homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God – Clement of Rome
    For God is not manifest to those who corrupt themselves with young boys. Theophilis
    I guess ML and the early church fathers are also cursed bunch, because they judged .
    1) Try addressing my statement. When you cant, you fall back into the shadows . You use the same argument and hold the same position that the christian gay pride movement are known for. Why? Show a direct or indirect scripture that would support your ungodly view that we are to celebrate the” life” of two gay people at a marriage ceremony.

  59. Erik says:


    What you wrote your own philosophical version of Christianity. Im only interested in the biblical Christianity and not the kind open to private interpretation.

  60. Erik says:


    “I also remember Jesus celebrating the lives of tax collectors, sinners and prostitutes.”

    Celebrating there lives relative there sin?

    Please give scriptural references and lets unpack this.

  61. London says:

    How many gay weddings do you think you’re likely to get invited to? Why is it so important to you what celebrations other people attend?

  62. London says:

    What is the obsession with gay people anyway? For crying out loud…the world is going to hell in a hand basket and you’d think that homosexuality was the only thing some Christians can talk about. No wonder people tune the church out.

  63. Erik, there is nothing to unpack here – you either follow the words of Jesus or you don’t. How simple can this get. ML can be just as wrong as you on this topic.

    As president of my church I also serve on our school board. Some time back a controversy came up about a couple of kids in the school who had homosexual parents and a person on the board began raising the issue should we allow the kids in the school. This guy was very adamant against keeping them and became a bit disturbing in the meeting. So I asked for an adjournment and took him outside to talk. We smoked cigars on the patio as we spoke.

    Consider my talk to him, my talk to you.

    I asked him “do you remember Jesus on the sermon on the mount when he spoke of adultery? Do you remember when he said that we can commit adultery in our mind with our thoughts?” I said “have you ever committed adultery in your mind?” He said – “well of course, we all have.” I then told him, “when we go back into that meeting I want you to tell the group when you stopped committing adultery in your mind and gave it up for good.”

    He looked at me sheepishly and I said “now let’s go in there and see if we can win this family to Jesus through our school.”

    Erik, I ask you – when did YOU stop committing adultery in your mind and when did YOU give it up for good? Oh, I think that was more Jesus wording – something about taking the log out of your own eye first.

    Hey, ever been to a divorced person’s 2nd wedding? 😉

  64. Joe says:


    So would you judge and object if a lutheran bishop by the name of Guy Irwin who is openly gay. Offered to teach a midweek bible study at your church. With the full support of some of the church members ?

  65. Eric says:

    Attending a same-sex wedding does not mean one approves of the marriage.

  66. Joe, I would object but not judge. But my objection wouldn’t be because he was a homosexual – it would be because he was ELCA 😉

  67. Alex says:

    I wonder how many people attended Don Stewart’s wedding?

  68. Alex says:

    ….the second one.

  69. Xenia says:

    Traditionally, wedding guests have been viewed as witnesses to the marriage, sort of the community’s seal of approval and well-wishing for the new couple. A blessing. Since I cannot give my Amen and blessing to a homosexual marriage I cannot attend.

  70. Alex says:

    “Since I cannot give my Amen and blessing to a homosexual marriage I cannot attend.”

    Would you attend a fornicators wedding? How about someone who is a glutton?

  71. Em says:

    reading some food for thot this a.m. – had to ponder the wedding, still not sure, but i think i would wish to have had the guts to invite the two gays over for a meal and explained myself – i love you both, and i hope you understand the reason that i cannot attend your wedding celebration… can we talk?

    London related some very good examples of where we Christians must stand – and do – where refugees are concerned … we need to separate in our minds the desperate folk fleeing for their lives from those sneaking across our border with evil intent or simply to “get on the gravy train” – how do we do that?

    as to the obsession with gayness? i don’t think we’re obsessed, rather we are daily assaulted for bucking the acceptance of an alternate lifestyle that God calls sin…
    kind of reminds me of the time that i was walking my dog – well behaved trotting along beside me… a neighborhood kid came towards us on his bike with his dog on a leash … as his dog got close to us it kicked up a snarling ruckus, pulling the boy over, bike and all, trying to get to us… the boy picked up his bike and shouted, “you need to do something about your dog; she’s dangerous.” my dog had never broken stride or even barked, but we were seen as dangerous? 🙂

  72. Em says:

    Alex’s #70 – is not an answer to Xenia’s #69

    but lets swap ends on this, would i invite a glutton, a fornicator or a homosexual to my wedding? yes, another sinner can celebrate with me what is not sinful…

  73. Michael says:

    I think that we must respect the matter of conscience on this matter.
    Xenia views wedding attendance as being an act of blessing and affirming the marriage…if I viewed participation the same way I would also have to stay home.

    I don’t necessarily view being a guest that way and I have freedom of conscience to be a friend to those who invited me without affirming the act.

    I believe that’s what Jesus did in eating with “sinners”.

  74. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I’m with Alex on this. As I asked Erik (with a K) – “Hey, ever been to a divorced person’s 2nd wedding?” – and we know all 2nd weddings are really adultery because both parties are always to blame for the divorce… to some degree.

    So, if you can go to your son or daughter’s 2nd wedding, you can go party with the homosexuals.

  75. Michael says:


    Thank you for watching the video and sharing your concerns.
    I thought Luis did a wonderful job restraining himself…far better than I was able to do so at the time, or even now when the subject comes up in my personal world.

    I will go to my grave not comprehending why it would be necessary to convince or persuade followers of Jesus to embrace children fleeing terror.
    I’m one of those guys that feels guilty when he doesn’t buy the cookies from the Girl Scouts or Little Leaguers going in and out of Walmart.
    If I were to scream at a child who had just traversed hell to escape a violent death or sex slavery God would strike me dead, resurrect my sorry ass, and do it again.

    That might be the only time I would make Fox News, but I suspect the message would be lost.

    The political climate fueled by the media at the time that was recorded didn’t allow for the needed discussions, for objective looks at the facts, that would enable reaching humane and holy solutions.

    I’m not sure it ever will.

    When this happens again…and it will…I hope one point Luis made is clear.

    This isn’t about immigration policy, it was about refugee policy.

  76. Em says:

    we don’t know both parties are always to “blame” for the divorce… and thinking of the gay wedding as a comparable? …. well, Michael is right, i guess as to it being a matter of conscience – or fuzzy spiritual thinking … but it would not be a mortal sin to go where sinners are celebrating in any case… praise God for the principle of grace or none of us would stand a chance … IMHO

  77. Alex says:

    If you have no problem going to a church potluck or buffet where fat gluttons are indulging themselves in sin…then you have no business being indignant about gay weddings.

    If you attend a church where you know abuses occur and where you know there is only a sham accountability structure, you have no business being indignant about gay weddings.

  78. Em says:

    i have no problem going to a church potluck where gluttons indulge – unless they’re eating off of my plate or that of my gay friend… and i’m indignant about gluttony and gay weddings

    well, i’m off to render to Caesar – he’s a legalist that will take tribute from anyone

  79. Alex says:

    “Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the Lord”

    That just wiped out about 75% of the Pastorate.

    “Unequal weights and unequal measures are both alike an abomination to the Lord.”

    That just wiped out about 50% of the “church” as they don’t deal equitably with lay-people and favor the Leaders/Gurus.

    “Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord”

    That wiped out most everyone at one time or another, and many in the Pastorate and many “churches”

    “If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.”

    That just wiped out anyone whose theology doesn’t observe the “law”

    “For the devious person is an abomination to the Lord”

    That just wiped out a chunk of CC pastors and mega-pastors in how they conspire to handle “problems” in their franchises rather than dealing uprightly and honestly.

    Lots of “abominations”….but right, we need to hyper-focus on the homos and be real upset that they want to get a Government marriage contract afforded to every other sinning US citizen.

  80. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    So that all are clear, I do think homosexuality is 100% wrong. But I don’t need to judge it because scripture already has.

    When Jesus said not to judge, you need to look back in the previous chapter to see what he was following up from – forgiving.

  81. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “and be real upset that they want to get a Government marriage contract afforded to every other sinning US citizen.”

    Well that’s not quite true. My daughter and I went down to the court house to get a marriage license and they refused us. So I guess some people can and perhaps should be denied marriage.

  82. Alex says:

    MLD, your logic is flawed as usual. Big Straw Man and Red Herring. I won’t waste the blogs time on correcting your false analogy.

  83. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex – it’s just your prudishness that keeps you from approving and sanctifying the love my daughter and I have for each other. Look, she’s 41 has all the kids she wants to have. I have been ‘fixed’ so there is no chance of bearing less than high quality kids. Who are you and the state to keep us apart.

    Heck, at least we are of the correct genders for mating. 🙂

  84. papiaslogia says:

    I watched the video as well, and had the same reaction as Eric L.

    Just in case anyone wanted to know.

  85. Alex says:

    The State makes laws based on a Moral Consensus filtered through the matrix of our three branches of Govt. and as well as State and Local govts.

    As such, there is a Consensus forming that gays can have a Govt. issued marriage contract…whether you agree with that moral opinion or not.

    In your sick 🙂 hypothetical…you’ll have a hard time finding any consensus for that 😉

  86. Alex says:

    Like I’ve preached on here many times (and I’m still right 🙂 )

    Consensus Principle rules the day when it comes to defining “truth”

  87. Michael says:

    London @ 57…thank you for that.

    I would be remiss in reporting if I did not also point out that the only people doing anything about the suffering on the border are Christians.

  88. Alex says:

    In Old Testament times, slavery and multiple wives were “OK” according to the Consensus of the Hebrews and their surrounding cultures. So-much-so that the “bible” says “God” through Moses gave it the green light and stamps of approval.

    Today…that Consensus has long changed and it’s no longer kosher….along with much other stuff from that era.

  89. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex, give adult incest another 10 yrs and you will be leading the campaign for legalization I am sure. Can’t we all just get along? 😉

    Under the scenario I laid out, neither government nor society should have any say in the matter – just pony up the license.

  90. Alex says:

    “Alex, give adult incest another 10 yrs and you will be leading the campaign for legalization I am sure. Can’t we all just get along?”

    We do have Abortion as normative and legal now…and I think it is ‘immoral” and murder…but that is the law of the land…just like Slavery, Sex Slaves and Multiple Wives were the law of the land in the Old Testament.

    “Truth” is largely relative and opinion-based unfortunately.

  91. Alex says:

    I’m at a crossroads. I’ve been approached by some really interesting folks who have a lot to say about my situation and about the current situation in ‘Merica.

    Is it just a few bad apples or is the whole thing corrupt, especially within some Groups I’ve associated with in the past?

    Hard to tell who the good guys and bad guys are anymore.

  92. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    there are no good guys – we all fall short of the glory of god – I read that somewhere – probably a baseball magazine.

    Oh wait, that was Leo Durocher who said “good guys finish last” – he actually said “nice guys” – but I adapted.

  93. Nonnie says:

    MLD, At the rate things are going, folks in our age bracket may have been euthanised in the next 10 years, to save us the indignity and pain of suffering old age .

  94. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Some mornings getting out of bed, that doesn’t sound like a bad option 😉

  95. Anne says:

    #87 Just wanted to point out that not ‘all’ who are working to address border issues are Christian groups. For example, and . Unitarians from across the nation also have stepped up providing funds, supplies, lodging and volunteer hours supporting immigrants and refugees. There are others as well, providing food, toys, books, clothing, bedding etc that are not faith based. I am grateful for ALL whose hearts are touched and share their resources to help in this crisis. One can honestly say christian orgs have more boots on the ground, but I have a theory that if you compared the number of professing christians w/ the number of humanists, secularists, nones etc, that the percentage of folks helping and amount of charity in $ & time given, the results would either be equal or the secular might be ahead. If I were younger and my brain more intact it is a research project I would like to tackle.

  96. Anne says:

    Almost forgot another important group: .

  97. Michael says:


    I’m simply repeating what Chuck Bowden and Luis Urea have said repeatedly.
    The overwhelming number of people delivering aid on the border, in Juarez, and in other places inside Mexico are Christians.

    Bowden would have scoffed profanely at anyone accusing him of being a Christian…

  98. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    How would anyone know? I have never given money to any kind of disaster relief or similar program and somehow designated that I was a Christian.

  99. Jim says:

    I watched the Ted talk and agree that refugees are far different than ” illegal” immigrants. Refuge should be a no brainier.

    The whole immigration issue is off the rails. The speaker rightly referred to us as the sons of immigrants. My Greek great-grandfather came over in 1903, and the problem was getting here. Citizenship was granted by staying here. My grand- father was 3, and grew up in a shanty town, far worse than the ghettos of today, and was a self-made millionaire in his 40’s with zero help from uncle sam. THAT is America.

    I don’t understand why citizenship has become so hard.

    I’d say a nation that is $18 trillion in debt should close the welfare state and open the borders, as immigrants make us better.

    Either way, we can’t turn away these kids.

  100. Anne says:

    Michael – I agree with you, Bowden and Urea ….As I said, “One can honestly say christian orgs have more boots on the ground”.

    I am overly sensitive to the word “all”. Probably just overly sensitive period 😉

  101. Anne says:

    MLD @98 – yes, that is one of the barriers to even attempting such research.

  102. Michael says:


    The groups there self identify as Christian…big Catholic presence as would be expected.

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