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70 Responses

  1. Anyone remember the book Why Conservative Churches Are Growing? Those were the parents and grandparents of the ‘millennials’ … I am never upset when dumb phrases are removed… I went after a couple of dumb phrases on the Hell thread.

    We do have a problem … American Christianity has always thrived on the young… Ready Aim Misfire!

    Cry out … ok my couple of morning posts are over… back to the cave

  2. Babylon's Dread says:

    Oh one more thing,

    I enjoy telling my church that “I could be wrong.” They clearly enjoy hearing it since they already knew… Now they know that I know too. Talk about a relief…

    Pope Dread

  3. Nonnie says:

    Babs, I sure hope you know how much you are appreciated around here!

  4. Babylon's Dread says:


    You are always kind to me.

    Grateful Dread

  5. Oscar says:

    Big White Guy Rick Phillips has it all wrong.

    Bolz-Weber is not part of evangelicalism.

    But thanks, Big Rick, for man-splainin’ it to Nadia. I’m sure she can’t exegete God’s Word. Thanks for standing in.

  6. Xenia says:

    I personally believe Dr. Dino is a crook and a nutcase.

    However, I also know a good number of people who saw his presentations years ago and he provided them with “proof” that evolution is false and therefore, Christianity is true. This is such shaky ground to base one’s faith upon that I dare not kick it out from under their feet.

    Too many kids went to evangelical schools and were taught pseudo-scientific theories about creationism. They were told that if they found themselves in a university classroom and the prof starts preaching evolution, to boldly stand up and tell the truth, as taught to them by adherents of Dr. Dino and Ken Ham and all the rest of that crowd. And when the prof demolishes their arguments with a few deft sentences, they don’t know what to do next but but “next” often involves wondering how much of all the rest of the things they were taught are bogus. Many kids have lost their faith in this way.

    I do not believe in evolution but I would not try to “prove” it to kids by talking about fossilized hats, human footprints in dinosaur footprints and speculations about the speed of light. Our faith is not based on such things but unfortunately, some groups are fixated on disproving evolution as if the Gospel depends on it. And for some people, because of lousy teaching, the Gospel does depend on it and when you tell them their hero Dr. Dino is a crook they fall apart.

    Creation science is just another form of scientism, the idol of the age.

  7. Michael says:


    That…was really well said.

  8. I really appreciate the panel and their discussion but little about the way they talk about the Christian faith relates to me at all. What I hear underneath is all sin management … what I hear is all religion centered. I regret commenting this but …

    Life and faith is much more joyful, exciting and free than what I hear here.

  9. Babylon's Dread says:

    It is simply impossible for Reformed and Lutheran Christians to argue that they do not see those two as apostles. It cannot be denied with any degree of authenticity

    AND they are clueless about UNCTION… one should not be surprised when reformed preachers have no theology of the Spirit on their preaching … they believe in an inspired book not an anointed ministry … balderdash

    PREACH Ezekiel and the dead rise…

    Hmmmm a high view of preaching means a woman cannot do it… OK The woman on the panel should have pointed out that women CAN serve on panels.

    This video just got more painful as it went for me…

  10. Those two being …. LUTHER and CALVIN

  11. Michael says:


    You’ve never read Calvin on the Holy Spirit and the actions of the Spirit in preaching.
    The power is in the Word preached, not the preacher…

  12. Michael says:

    You would argue for the continuation of the apostolic ministry…I’ve seen enough of some of the people your tribe has anointed as apostles to stay with Calvin on this one.

  13. victorious says:

    Thanks for the First Things article on “Methodist Revival”.

    I appreciate greatly what those at Asbury Seminary including their current President Timothy Tennent are articulating in recovering the DNA of the Wesleyan movement for this current generation.

    The beauty is that while Tennent and others are focused upon renewal within Methodist denominations; Prevenient Grace transcends denominations and when understood and embraced ; fuels the fires and lays the foundation for evangelism and discipleship birthed in love and bathed in power; where that love and power are free to find a multitude of healthy kingdom expressions.

    I long for a season (in fact this is my focus for the remainder of my days ) where churches are not planted for those who wish to be attracted; but are birthed as a natural result of those coming alive and growing in the kingdom as a result of communities rediscovering the freedom, authority and unlimited opportunities to love God and their neighbor through the Savior of the Gospel; trusting in His past provision and depending upon His present intercession.

    Yes, this semi-Augustinian, Wesleyan influenced , Neo-Pentecostal , Calvary Chapel steeped soul apprentice is biased in holding onto personally and holding out this great hope for others.

  14. victorious says:

    And thank you to the Irenic, tender hearted and ever persevering host who has come alive within the grace of God as articulated by a disciple named Calvin. ๐Ÿ™‚

  15. Dude says:

    Hovind dug his own hole.The man has no common sense…which is pretty normal for the wing of American Christianity he represents.

  16. Steve Wright says:

    I saw Hovind live way back in the day. His presentation was incredible and he proclaimed the crucified and risen Christ while challenging the audience not to preach creationism but to preach Jesus and serve Him. I do not believe he is anything less than a brother in Christ.

    That said..there is no justification for his actions or the defense of his actions.

    I would put him alongside those in the family like the King James only or the ODMs. I’ve met several Christians who buy into the whole income tax is unconstitutional stuff, and that is what got him into trouble – not his creationist views or presentations (though on some points I would also disagree with the message, not just the messenger).

  17. Babylon's Dread says:


    I understand very well that for Calvin and his kin the power is in the Word preached I have no problem with this at all … I have TONS of problems with that panel and their absence of any view of divine unction on the servant and the word… of course it is there .. it is there definitionally…

    Correct I am a continuationist all I am saying is that so are you … Calvin to J I Packer … with Jerry Lee in there somewhere ๐Ÿ˜‰

  18. Steve Wright says:

    Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel….

  19. Babylon's Dread says:

    Sounds like Peter had unction… and everyone who preaches can as well. I think reformed folks are twisted in their knicker in that an inspired preacher has to be inerrant. Damn mess we make when we add to scripture qualifiers that we use to justify our untenable positions.

  20. Michael says:


    All believers are filled with the Holy Spirit.
    It is the Word that is alive, powerful, and sharper than a two edged sword.
    The word is not dependent upon the “unction of the preacher to do it'[s work.
    I sniff loudly at this Pentecostal mysticism…

  21. Michael says:

    This “unction” mythology is what has been used to prop up every loser in evangelicalism…God’s kingdom just needed their “unction” and “anointing” so bad…horse hockey.
    I have neither unction nor anointing…I have the Word of God and the Gospel proclaimed.

  22. Michael says:

    I saw Hovind too.
    He was exactly what Xenia said…a crook and a nutcase.
    He messed up some new believers so badly I gave up trying to untangle the knots.

  23. Babylon's Dread says:

    My professor always said that Mormonism was the natural man’s religion… they just admitted it. Just in time too … polygamy will come roaring back and be legal in every state soon enough. The gates are open.

    Here’s a good argument… there are so many useless men that no one should marry and a shortage of men that make great husbands… folks get ready… the future is going to be anything but boring.

  24. Michael says:

    Jerry Lee claims that he and Jimmy Lee both got the “anointing” one night when they were kids playing a concert.
    Jerry Lee felt touched by the devil and Jimmy Lee agreed…and wouldn’t play the boogie no more…

  25. Babylon's Dread says:


    The claim of unction to preach does not deny the anointing is upon all… but not all believers are alike… this is no issue.

    I brazenly dispute you that it is the written word alone… completely dispute you. Some stand to preach and people pray for hell to escape them… God anoints instruments some preach and some blog.

  26. Michael says:

    Your brazen disputations are not getting either one of us any work done. ๐Ÿ™‚
    I see nothing in the NT that indicates that preachers have a special anointing…I was going to write just that tomorrow.
    It’s a bogus claim of supernatural authority.

  27. Michael says:

    It is not the written word alone…it’s the written word preached.

  28. Babylon's Dread says:

    I backslid today and blogged too much…

    lost my anointing for sure.

    IF you write that heresy I may lose tomorrow too… ๐Ÿ˜‰

    I look forward to it

  29. Babylon's Dread says:

    Who is the woman on that panel? I want to hear her Joyce Meyer unction …

  30. Michael says:

    That’s Aimee Byrd…good writer…heart belongs to Calvin.:-)

  31. Jean says:

    What I don’t understand about all the publicity and hype given to Nadia Bolz-Weber is that she has a small congregation (around 180) relative to her national reputation. In other words, there are all kinds of people out there on the fringes of the church saying all kinds of things, but no one gives them the kind of platform Nadia gets, If she pastored a mega-church, I could understand the fame, but she hasn’t shown that her brand of Christianity has moved any mountains or ushered in some sort of revival. So, why do people care what she says?

    If anyone goes to or pastors a congregation of around 180 or less, don’t take my comments as small congregations don’t matter or are fringe. That’s not my point at all.

  32. Steve Wright says:

    I’m not going to defend Hovind. I know other creationist ministries did not agree with all his material nor his deliveries…but how his creation teachings could horribly screw anyone up is beyond me unless I too would be guilty. But I believe man used to live over 900 years before the Flood too – and I guess that is pretty whacky stuff to most people (along with what flows from that Biblical teaching – like how long the animals lived, and how big they grew to be, especially those animals that keep growing as long as they are alive).

    Now, if his teachings about government, taxes and stuff screwed someone up…of that I would have no doubt.

    As to the Spirit in preaching. I fear a middle is being lost as maybe there is a speaking past each other a little. Maybe? For example, I do not know that Dread would affirm more than, or Michael would deny, what Spurgeon wrote in the chapter ‘The Holy Spirit in Connection with Our Ministry’ – from Lectures to my Students. Maybe I am wrong. But in quickly skimming that chapter in review (and I think I will read it carefully tonight later), I find much to agree with the old (Calvinist) Baptist preacher.

    Much like a prophetic word does not make one a prophet, God’s anointing upon the preaching of His word does not make the man, “anointed”. And “touch not God’s anointed” is one of those things that all CC gets brushed with because, unfortunately, it came straight from Chuck Smith. Many of us think that is bunk, with zero connection to the context of David not killing Saul.

    But there are far too many instances in my life when the words flowed out of me almost without conscious thought – not that I had not prepared, nor that I was deviating from my preparation, not at all – but it is an indescribable feeling of, for lack of better words, “God taking over” – and it often is confirmed when those in the congregation comment afterwards about something particular in their lives that I actually spoke directly to, when I had no idea whatsoever.

  33. Steve Wright says:

    Jean, we can get 180 for one of our four services…..and I can’t even get people on this blog to listen to me…much less a national reputation. ๐Ÿ™‚

  34. Michael says:


    Hovind has video series that address much more than creation…and I lost a life long friend who got caught up in his KJV only garbage among other spurious crap…

  35. Jean says:

    You get my attention. Sometimes I wish you had a national platform; sometimes…. ๐Ÿ™‚

  36. victorious says:

    Anointing in preaching?
    I find biblical support from Peter.
    IPeter 4: 10-11 “As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God”

  37. mizmooz2 says:

    his creation teachings could horribly screw anyone up is beyond me <<<

    Because much of it isn't true? Because much of it is pseudo-science?

    Whenever you teach people stuff that isn't true, it is harmful.

    Again, I am not saying I believe in evolution, far from it.

  38. mizmooz2 says:

    You take a kid and fill his brains with Dr. Dino nonsense and tell him if he doesn’t believe it, he’s probably not even saved…

    You tell this kid that these Dino arguments are so devastatingly true that it will knock the toupee off his godless-atheist university professor…

    When this kid confidently stands up in his geology class and says Christianity is true because a petrified hat was found in a cave in Australia….

    When the prof demolishes this attempt with a few scientific facts and leads the class in a round of laughter…

    When this chagrined kid goes to the library to find material to prove the prof wrong and discovers the prof was right….

    Then this kid feels like he has been duped and his faith is shaken and my never recover.

    Dino science is just about the worst thing a person can place their faith in.

  39. xenia says:

    mizmooz = xenia

  40. xenia says:

    One of the reasons the teachings of Dr. Dino (and others) is so dangerous is that they equate belief in creationism (as they see it) with believing faith in Jesus Christ.

    When the Dino house of cards fall, everything that was built upon it will fall, too.

    I have a near relative who has great faith in Dr. Dino, based on a presentation he heard with he was just thinking about becoming a Christian. Dr. Dino’s “logic” sealed the deal and unfortunately, this young person has never really grown past the theological equivalent of playing with toy dinosaurs. Do you think I am about to tell him Hovind is a nut? No way. So far, it’s all he’s got and I hope and pray he can mature in Christ before he learns the truth.

  41. Steve Wright says:

    Look, my experience with the guy was minimal, and I never saw taught the stuff that both Michael and Xenia are saying he has taught – especially as to salvation. I don’t deny he taught it, because I trust you both and believe you to report accurately – and he already has done enough in the past that I have been warning people about him for years.

    And I think I have been clear that I do not and will not defend a criminal. So I’ll bow out of that discussion…except I do have a fossil story to tell. ๐Ÿ™‚

    I once conversed long and deep with a very educated, intellectual atheist. A charitable sort and we expressed mutual respect. And we got to talking about fossils. Here is a scientific quote, similar I am sure to whatever I used with him, as I use secular sources in these discussions:

    Not many plants and animals are lucky enough be turned into fossils. When an animal or plant dies its remains usually rot away to nothing. Sometimes though, when the conditions are just right and its remains can be buried quickly, it may be fossilised (Oxford Univ. Museum of Natural History)

    I used this as a jumping off point to discuss the worldwide flood as the explanation for the majority of the fossil record. I mentioned how we don’t find fossils of, for example, the hundreds of thousands of buffalo killed on the plains a century+ ago. Lying out there to rot and be scavengered

    His very condescending response to me was “Don’t you know that fossils take millions of years to form. Sure we don’t see those fossils now. But if we were alive in a few million years the land would be full of buffalo fossilized bones”

    Now, I know it is anecdotal. And to you all he sounds like an ignorant fool. (I hope he does). But all I can say is he is not – at least once you get past the evolutionist indoctrination that he simply swallowed as justification for his atheism and moved on to actually study and learn multiple other things of the world to which he was quite educated.

    I don’t know about hats. But I don’t run from real education. Like how fossils are formed. About the 4th class of reptile rarely mentioned because they are extremely rare, but still exist – the tuatara. About compound probability as relates to time and the complexity of life, what mutations really are like. Genetics.

    You don’t have to mention a single word of Bible in any of it. And you sure won’t look like a fool in front of your professor. Though no guarantees he still won’t ridicule you and your faith. But hey, they mocked Jesus too.

    That’s what we should teach our Christian youth. Not to be a disciple of any creationist, criminal or otherwise.

  42. xenia says:

    On to happier thoughts.

    Two of my favorite people, who I never thought I would ever be in the same room together:


  43. JTK says:

    I don’t get what motivates Hatchet-man.

    I don’t get MH and all the real estate finaglings.
    Especially considering a church building isn’t anywhere in scripture I’ve found.

  44. brian says:

    I find that Mr. Hovind’s models offer no observable predictive value and lack the ability to recognize patterns in nature to develop a coherent theory. He also brings into question several dozen disciplines into question.

  45. brian says:

    Steve I know this is probably not the best recommendation but I believe in reading both sides of an issue as foundational as common descent and cosmology IE deep time and gravitational theory. I am not a scientist so I may be using the wrong exact words perfectly so forgive my ignorance. The speed of light comes to mind as does the application of the theory of relativity was applied to Newton’s law when compared to the rotation of mercury and the fact there was a discrepancy to the observations but when Einstein’s theory was applied to the problem the discrepancies were reconciled.

    A world flood, a literal six day creation where the earth was formed as was the seas before the moon and stars galaxies, local group etc. is a miracle and outside the realm of science. Like Mr. Hovind said creation is not observable ok neither was the creation event and it cannot be observed or tested. Badly worded but the conundrum goes both ways.

  46. Ixtlan says:

    I really liked Addie Zierman’s article on 5 Churchy Phrases That Are Scaring Off Millennials’.

    I would offer only two critiques, hopefully constructive.

    Don’t think that these things are only a millennial sensitivity. I loath all five of those sayings; they are the product of modern seeker sensitivity pipe that many are still taking a toke from. although the substance in the bowl has changed. Like her I am in church today in spite of, not because of. And my kids are millennials, which takes me clearly outside that box. There is a greater awakening to these sensitivities, a probably more pronounced with millennials, but this is the angst that many of us have dealt with for years. These sayings don’t scare me, I’ve gotten used to them in that respect, but they still send a shock down my spine.

    Secondly, the problem of millennials leaving the church will require a millennial answer.

  47. brian says:

    I just read the LDS link, wonder why this has not gotten more attention, this is a big deal for the higher ups in the LDS faith to acknowledge JS had plural wives. Some the age of 14, some say Mary the mother of Jesus was around that age when she was betrothed to Joseph. Not a defense of JS just an observation. I would think people would find this great news. Eventually they will back way away from Smith and try to struggle for new distinctives.

  48. xenia says:

    It is well known in the Mormon world that JS had dozens of wives. Many people like to claim him as an ancestor, him or Brigham Young. I think Walter Martin said (Jackie can correct me if I’m wrong) that he himself was a descendant of the many-wived Brigham?

  49. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    jtk, the short version is that it’s in examining the history of real estate acquisitions that it becomes most clear what conflicts of interest were involved in fast-tracking some men into leadership who never should have been pastors based either on what real estate they were sitting on or what prestige they had in certain regional circles.

    As for the recent sprawling transcript of a 2008 spiritual warfare session instructing MH leaders, it helps to know that MD was saying that certain attitudes about executive leadership (i.e. doubts about their love for the local church) were considered demonic by Driscoll. When Steve Tompkins mentioned the “ad hominem narrative” it’s arguable that this narrative began to take explicit shape within the leadership culture back in 2008 in the wake of the 2007 firings and doubts about the character and decisions of executive leadership. Why Driscoll felt obliged to tell a room full of elders who all, to a man, had voted to remove and then shun Paul Petry that there was a “myth” that the executive elders didn’t love the church is a bit harder to understand. But it can be documented.

  50. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    I’ll be the first to say the blog is simply not geared toward or makes any attempt to be accessible to people who haven’t caught up to the local history. It’s more a raw accumulation of primary source material before or as it’s expunged so that other people who may be interested can compile a history of the place and times.

    The blog was really supposed to be about classical guitar music and cartoons but life happens. The plan was never to leave MH when the blog got started back in 2006. ๐Ÿ™‚ The first boondoggle in real estate was the eye opening moment of questions about the fiscal competence and capacity for spin on the part of MH leadership for me. Spending $1.5 million on real estate that couldn’t even be zoned for church use was a deal-breaker for membership renewal for me at the time. And then, eventually, I learned more about the 2007 firings.

  51. brian darby says:

    Wenatchee and others it is always about one thing, revenue always follow the money always and twice on Sunday. Of course they would leverage the real estate, its the smart move and it will protect the real money, which is the only thing that matters. If one choses between the eternal torment of billions of people and a good real estate deal, billions will burn, that is more sure than gravity, even more sure than God. Like I said its the smart move, it leverages resources and helps protect and project the new branding, granted thousands will be hurt, they can blank blank, them and their families and loved ones. Sorry if that offends but its the truth. Personally MD needs to be dragged back to Seattle and force to do community service in a local homeless shelter that deals with battered women. It just might save his soul. I know it did mine back in the day.

  52. xenia says:

    Personally MD needs to be dragged back to Seattle and force to do community service in a local homeless shelter that deals with battered women. It just might save his soul. I know it did mine back in the day.<<<

    Good idea.

  53. brian darby says:

    I must add I sort of fell into it as the homeless shelter was located on the state developmental grounds I worked at and it just seemed like a good idea. I worked there about a year off and on and offered some financial support. I have so many memories so many tears, granted those are emotional thus useless I get that, but these people touched me. What I meant about saving my soul it helped me put into perspective the violence I saw in my own home and gave me some peace. I would never expect God to actually save my soul, that would be far too obtuse and arrogant. I have no expectations of God, never have, well maybe the first year or two as a Christian but I have repented of that nonsense. It really is a rather strange religion it really is.

  54. Andrew says:

    Creation science is just another form of scientism, the idol of the age.


    Actually evolution is. Its taught as fact everywhere and given the status as scientific law and proven theory beyond a shadow of a doubt and anyone who questions it is cast off as a wacko nutcase even within a majority of the church. There is no better example of this than the biologos organization that somehow never gets the bad press that Ken Ham or Dr. Dino get.

  55. brian darby says:

    Actually Biologos gets a great deal of flack. There is a large body of evidence from a variety of independent sources that offer evidence that supports the validity of the theory of evolution. Just a thought.

  56. Andrew says:

    All the evidence is circular and prepositional.

  57. victorious says:

    I resonate with the struggles and desires that the author of the millennials article believes are ignored are marginalized with catchy simplistic phrases.

    But, she needs to realize that generations before and after hers have always gone to church in spite of the people and the culture and because of Jesus and His proven character; working through struggles often without leaving church.

    Now that she can articulate and stand up for her generation; she needs to grow up and look outside of it. She might find a greater sense of community in that mindset of self denial; looking past the catch phrases of others as people try to look beyond hers.

  58. Babylon's Dread says:

    If you want to have some fun with the millennials do this…

    Get a room full of them and let them listen to the panel discussion in the video above. Then have them play hangman’s noose making a mark every time there is a cringe moment and see how many of them survive the whole hour.


    If you think the 5 phrases turn off millennials watch what happens when they see what clergy care about in their in house discussion.

    I wish I had time to actually do that.

  59. Steve Wright says:

    Well..there is an article today that says a quarter of millennials think their student debt will one day magically be “forgiven”…so that is the mindset America has raised

  60. xenia says:

    Andrew, yes, the false theory of evolution is scientism to the max. However, I think putting one’s faith in creation science unwittingly falls into the same trap.

  61. xenia says:

    The five phrases article. I get tired of all these blog articles with lists of things one must not say to people of all kinds of categories. It would be like walking on egg shells all the time if I took these articles seriously.

    But I have to admit, the phrase “we just want to love on them” is creepy.

  62. I wonder how many 20 somethings left the church in the 40s because he church refused to update the music to Jazz or Big Band concepts?
    I will need to search the used book stores to find all the books written then about church and relevance.

  63. Babylon's Dread says:

    Here take a test MLD and find out how RELEVANT to millennials you are.


  64. Em says:

    MLD, i think the 50s were the start of the obsession with making changes to accommodate the ‘natural’ man – to increase attendance – to gain back the kids for whom Sunday School didn’t take? It’s hard to believe that there was a time in this nation where church attendance gave one credibility – you’d put the pastor on a job application as a reference…

  65. Babs,
    I am not even relevant to my own generation … but is relevance a goal?

    I don’t remember any pols or articles when I was in college and I was a sociology major, asking about relevance between my parents or grandparents and us baby boomers. We were just rebellious jerks as were all generations before us.

    So hey, let the millennials have their time of rebellion. Soon, they too will be into big houses, expensive cars and reviewing daily their 401K just like us.

  66. Em says:

    “Personally MD needs to be dragged back to Seattle and force to do community service in a local homeless shelter that deals with battered women.”

    agreeing – add another second to the motion … or a prayer

  67. Babylon's Dread says:


    Money is a great leveler … there are no hippies… at least not ones that vote.
    The relevance crowd thinks relevance is influence.

    Interestingly the Hippie generation never found the church relevant but the Spirit found them and that was it… remember the generation gap?

    Take a picture of Lonnie Frisbee and Chuck Smith and you have the generation gap… that worked out alright … for Chuck.

    As for MD doing community service… relocation is service enough

  68. London says:

    I took that little quiz and was surprised to find out only 30% of the people in my age category had actually created their own online profile for some type of social media.
    I thought everyone had done that!

  69. brian darby says:

    “Money is a great leveler ” Absolutely and always. Money is also the great motivationaler equalizer, deliverer etc. I dont believe that but it sure comes off that way. As well it should. Before I gave up tv I use to watch storage wars, hocky show but they had two sacraments that are truth incarnate. Cash is king and Winner takes all, always and twice on Sunday.

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