Linkathon 4/28 part 1

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123 Responses

  1. That’s not quite what I said. I actually argued that we have to be very careful not to fall into legalism regarding the sabbath. There is a place between antinomianism (disregarding God’s law) and legalism (making up rules). It’s true I don’t see how playing in the NFL comports with the 4th commandment but I’m not about setting up rules for how people have to observe the sabbath apart from attending to the means of grace and resting.

  2. Pineapple Head says:

    Triablogue has always been so unreadable to me. So much text, I get bored trying to find where the real meat of the posting is…

  3. Babylon's Dread says:

    Tom and N T sounds like fun in November… think I will go there…

  4. BrianD says:

    Dr. Clark, thank you for commenting. I wish to apologize for misunderstanding the point of your article, and ask your forgiveness.

    I left my original description up, as your post specifically refers back to it. I crossed it out, however, and replaced it with a direct quote which I believe reflects the point you were trying to make.

    Sometimes if you do these link compilations long enough you, unfortunately, will mess up in some way.

  5. brian says:

    They found Noah’s Ark. This group does have video, rooms and wood with termite damage at 12 k feet. Just google Noah’s ark.

  6. Babylon's Dread says:

    Everywhere I turn lately I am hearing gloom and doomer… conspiracy theorists, 9/11 Truthers, people who are storing up supplies, those who expect the dollar to collapse and be replaced by the Amero overnight, people buying guns… someone tell me that I am not the only one… This is especially true among Messianic people and apocalyptic fundies.

    Many of them expected it to materialize by Jan 1 of THIS year… besides being SICK of it I am wondering if others are getting the same stuff…

  7. Jessica Menn says:

    The text says “Christian radio is washing its hands of Jennifer Knapp”, but the link actually leads to an article about NT Wright. Methinks you meant to link to this article instead.

  8. Babylon's Dread says:

    I thought Jennifer Knapp was fairly ambiguous about her sexuality… I think she is uncertain about the future and I fully expect her to waffle on lesbianism.

    I also think that it is quite possible to be civil in your discourse and clear in your conviction that lesbianism is not God’s design … I was struck by how ridiculous the show turned out. We should debate adultery since in truth it is far more common and universally accepted unless you are a Christian or a republican moralist.

  9. Believe says:

    “people buying guns…”

    Yes they are…I can attest to that…sellin’ ’em like “miracles” at a Todd Bentley revival…

  10. Babylon's Dread says:


    Lay something special aside for me….

  11. Believe says:

    I’ve got just the something “special” for the Baby D…perfect for the Zombie Apocalypse.

  12. BrianD says:

    Thank you, Jessica. Strike two for me tonight.

    You can say I am sticking my head in the sand but I have rejected serious contemplation of the doom and gloom pronouncements from the neo cons and the Christian talk shows ever since I realized that a daily dose of Point of View was damaging my soul. Life is miserable enough for me as is some days. I don’t need to add to it by reading WorldNet Daily.

  13. Believe says:

    BrianD…just for consideration:

    Lots of good info. Not hype. He’s the economist who accurately predicted the real estate collapse and the stock market collapse. He’s got an uncanny track record.

  14. BrianD says:

    Believe, thank you for your kind suggestion. But understand me when I say that I am avoiding that sort of thing, not to live in denial, but right now it is bad for my soul to have it before me. Here, I simply don’t participate in that kind of conversation (though I defend your right to discuss it, as long as Michael OKs it).

  15. Josh Hamrick says:

    Dread, yes- the gloom and doom is everywhere. Christians are scared to death and running about in an all out panic. I’d rather believe that God is in control, and find my comfort in him.

  16. Josh Hamrick says:

    Jennifer Knapp cannot control her sexual urges, and wants the Christian community to not only accept that, but to actively endorse it.

  17. Is it possible to say that Homosexuality is not necessarily a choice a person makes and still call it a sin? In other words, is at least possible that some are born with the tendency toward same sex. To say it is always a choice is an easy place for me to go mentally but I don’t know for sure that every same sex attraction is always a choice. Certainly some are but if a person was born that way…can we still call it sin? How so?

    I am asking the question so we think thru the mater and not just knee jerk. Don’t assume I am stating my position on the matter. This is the question others are asking and we need to at least respond with a logical; thought thru answer

  18. What do you say to those who want to change the traditional interpretation of the scriptures on the matter saying scriptures about same sex relations refer not to same sex attraction but adultery or multiple partners in a committed union?

    How do you support the traditional interpretation in scripture on the matter of homosexuality and avoid the accusation of being hateful?

    Just curious…

  19. Tim says:

    Steve –
    Is it “always” a choice? Regarding the act itself, yes – the act (like any other action) is always a choice. Regarding the attraction? Whereas I’m not at all convinced it’s genetic, I think there are circumstances in which people feel as if they have had no choice in the matter.

    I think of a friend I had in college who was se&ually abused by his brothers when he was in elementary school. Obviously no one gave him a choice in the matter & it left him permanently affected.

    Now I know this statement is going to get me into trouble, but I’m going to say it anyway. I do believe that whatever the reason for their attraction to the same-se&, that attraction can be dealt with in the person of Jesus Christ. Just as the p0rn addict finds hope in Christ & the adulterer’s only hope is in Christ – the homose&ual’s only hope is in Christ. His grace is sufficient – not just to forgive us from the sins of the past, but to help us deal with the sin & temptation of the present.

  20. Tim says:

    Steve @19
    I say that they’re ignoring the obvious intended meaning of the words as written on the page. Romans 1 is pretty durn clear on the matter.

  21. Em says:

    my husband and i used to debate 😉 are some sins worse than others? he’d say no; that sin is sin is sin – i maintained that some sins were indeed worse than others because of their consequences
    from my viewpoint the two worst sins in the OT were David’s dealings with Uriah and Lot offering his daughter to the mob…
    it’s for sure we’ll grieve as a consequence of sin, ours or someone else’s, but we don’t really grieve over the simple fact that sin is – period
    Jesus Christ became sin because of our condition, not because **some** sins were really bad ones…

  22. Josh Hamrick says:

    Personally, I don’t think (though I am open to Scriptural correction) that same-sex attraction is a sin. I don’t think it is a choice, and I don’t think it is unique. All people are born with inclination towards all different sort of sins. The choice comes in when you choose top have a sexual relationship with that person, and that is also where sin comes into the mix. Jennifer Knapp could live the rest of her life with her partner, be affectionate, share financial responsibilities…just like any other roomates, and not be living in sin. The fact that she HAS to have sex with that woman, and will not refuse that urge, is the sin.

    It really is a simple problem when you brake it down to the core issue, but noone wants to say that it is all about Jennifer Knapp being unable to control her sexual desires.

  23. Tim says:

    Regarding the 9 habits of healthiest people…I’ve got a few of those down, but I’m definitely in the minority so far.

    That said, I’ve been amazed at the effect of our weight-loss over the last year upon our congregation. So far I’ve lost about 65 pounds and my bride has lost well over 40 (I’m so proud of her!!), and between us we’ve had so many people in our congregation say they’re starting an exercise program, or eating better, etc.

    It’s been really great to see the response of folks here…I’m looking forward to seeing the results of it.

  24. Em says:

    BTW – to be clear on where i stand… if there is such a thing as ‘natural’ same sex urges, they don’t begin at birth
    we’re not all identical in any of our appetites and drives, but i think our sexual responders can get skewed by what we’re exposed to as we mature from childhood into adulthood – in today’s atmosphere it must be pretty easy to get “skewed” 🙄

  25. Michael says:


    We’re not saying she should control them, but negate them.

    Easy to say.

    Having been celibate for almost twenty years, I call that hell.

    It’s God’s way, but lets not pretend that it’s simple or easy.

  26. Michael says:

    Here’s the churches message to gays.

    Either become hetero or become “eunuchs for Jesus”.

    That may be biblical, but it’s also a death sentence to a large part of ones person.

  27. Josh Hamrick says:

    I think it is Michael. I’ve been married, and totally faithful to my spouse for 13 years. Don’t think that I don’t have sinful sexual urges. As a married man, I have to negate EVER having sex with another woman. I can do that, through Christ. You can do that, as you say you have for 20 years. Jennifer Knapp can as well.

    Easy? Not sure I meant that. Simple, as in it really all boils down to one issue: the act of sex.

  28. Josh Hamrick says:

    Why does intercourse have to be such a large part of one’s existence?

  29. Michael says:


    I wouldn’t speak to Jennifer about how simple this is…I frankly wouldn’t address the subject without tears in my eyes and a recognition of the pain that she may be called to.

  30. Michael says:


    If you have to ask the question, then you won’t understand the answer.

  31. Josh
    Answer: Because God made us sexual creatures with an appetite for it. But unlike the appetite for food or water, we won’t die if we don’t partake. But as Michael said, to not partake for many is a consignment to a life of torment and hell or release thru auto erotica

    BTW Josh, your answer may be simple to you but your description of the problem may be faulty and incomplete. It is at least worthy to be rethought

  32. Micahel at #30

    The biggest AMEN I can scream!

  33. Josh Hamrick says:

    I am sorry for using the word simple. It does come off as uncaring, and that is not what i intended. I don’t know a better word for what I was trying to get accross, but I clearly failed at communicating that thought, so i’ll just drop that part. For someone who has same-sex attraction, I am sure that it is anything BUT simple.

  34. Michael says:


    It goes way beyond an “appetite”.

    It’s part of the creation narrative, a built in desire for emotional and sexual intimacy.

    It is part of what it means to be human.

    I’m all for expounding God’s word on the matter, but lets be realistic about what we’re calling people to.

  35. DA Armstrong says:


    I don’t actually think that same sex attraction is genetic in any sort and thus not from birth. However, I think there are a whole host of attitudes and actions that develop this attraction. That said, for sake of argument what if it is not a choice, or it is genetic in some sense. There is strong research coming out about genes that relate to aggression. To the point that one is likely to be a much more angry person if they have that gene and they are more likely to become more uncontrolled in their anger. Yet, I think the everyone would agree that if such a person became upset and then committed murder they are guilty. What this tells me is simply having predisposition toward something doesn’t automatically make it right.

    As far as telling others, I normally let homosexuals know that I consider what they are doing sin. However, it is no worse a sin than those people who attend our church that live together and play house or those who fornicate. (I do love that word.) I know that our church has had it’s fair share of unmarried people living together. I’ve confronted a few of them (before I was on staff), those that I knew well enough. I think I could handle having someone who was homosexual attending, knowing that there will be a time to hold their feet to the fire.

  36. tears yes, but change what scripture says, no. A real struggle isn’t it. I wish we who love Christ and hold the the scriptures as true and right, would shed more tears, pray for folks and show more compassion rather than point fingers and say things like “The answer is simple…just convert back to being hetro or be celibate”

    One may have to learn to manage their desires, but I doubt God will just “change” them. I know he could and some may have…but in my years of dealing with these issues I haven’t seen it

  37. Just being honest

  38. Michael says:

    “The biggest AMEN I can scream!”


    Thank you…I’m so bleeping tired of the sanctimonious prattling on this subject I could scream.

  39. Rob Murphy says:

    Babylon’s Dread has spoken about re-affirming God’s plan for marriage and sexuality, and I think what we see in the upheaval created by sexual sin has been fully disclosed in 1 Cor. 6.
    Michael’s quote “That may be biblical, but it’s also a death sentence to a large part of ones person” tells us (not being hyperbolic) the Epic nature of the struggle over this part of us. I have to acknowledge that I have no idea how to encourage Michael or anyone else who God has in that place, but I pray for my brothers and sisters constantly for God’s grace and wholeness for them.
    It is amazing because there are things about us that are completely physical and there are aspects of us that are completely spiritual, and God has designed our sexuality to enmeshed where the physical is inseparable from the spiritual. Our soul is literally bound up among our sexuality, and the culture’s war on that, the idea that our values can be modified to extricate and surgically disconnect the physical from the spiritual in this realm has led to so much damage for people.

    When you see the real hurt, the devastating wounding that our friends and family experience in this regard, it really makes me amazed at God’s promises of restoration. How can He possibly bring beauty from these ashes? With these ingredients, God brings about good? That leaves me stunned. How is He going to do it?

  40. Michael
    You said it…but the appetite was because we are human and sex is part of being human. Thanks for the clarification

  41. Michael says:

    “It is amazing because there are things about us that are completely physical and there are aspects of us that are completely spiritual, and God has designed our sexuality to enmeshed where the physical is inseparable from the spiritual. ”

    Can’t say it any better than that…excellent.

  42. DA

    Good post. I have a problem when science and genetics is brought into the discussion. It can work for us (as you explain) but it can also work against us in a way that can take the control of things out of the hand of God and into the hands of genetics…but as Paul would say maybe “I speak as a fool” on this issue 🙂

  43. Michael says:


    I have great compassion for these people…and I’m tired as hell of the blithe way we slam their cross onto their back and announce to them that Jesus will be enough.

    I know you understand that and I’m glad you’re here…

  44. Tim says:

    Michael –
    Jesus IS enough; we just ought to present that truth with compassion & grace rather than flippancy.

  45. Josh Hamrick says:

    Michael, I understand your frustration, but I’m also more than a little tired of Christians apologizing for what the bible clearly states.

    I never said that I don’t sympathize with someone in this situation, or that i would condemn them or expect them to easily solve their problem. I used the word “simple”, but didn’t mean it as intended. I have apologized for that, and unfortunately can’t explain myself any better.

    Still, homosexuality, adultery, and fornication are sin. I would advise anyone in any of those situations to do whatever neccesary to get out. Even denying sexual urges.

  46. Goose says:

    Timely conversation for me as I opened my local newspaper this morning to find that the local United Church of Christ has just hired their new Pastor who appears to married to another man.

    What do you do with that?

  47. Michael says:

    “What do you do with that?”

    I stay out of the UCC….

  48. Michael says:

    “Michael, I understand your frustration, but I’m also more than a little tired of Christians apologizing for what the bible clearly states.”

    While ignoring what the Bible clearly says about pride, hate, anger on and on…

  49. Goose says:

    “I stay out of the UCC….”

    But what about unity?

  50. Josh Hamrick says:

    I’m ignoring those things? How?

  51. Michael says:

    “Jesus IS enough;”

    I’d like to know exactly what that is supposed to mean.

    I’ve made it through the last twenty years…but it has been hard and down right freakin miserable at times.

    I’m still alive and I’m still in the faith…haven’t “fallen” so the vultures could gather…but that’s about the size of it.

  52. Xenia says:

    I know people are sorry for homosexuals because they have to deny their sexual urges when no one else is expected to do this….. Or is this true? I know many wonderful Christian women who are approaching middle age and have all their lives wanted to be married but for one reason or another, never found a husband. These women remain pure. No one really cares about how their frustrations, it’s just expected that they will remain chaste. I have also found that these chaste women get kicked around and taken for granted at churches, too. I tell you what, these ladies are my heroines, not some pop star who gave in to her urges and is now on TV telling everyone how we misunderstood the Bible.

  53. Michael says:

    “I’m ignoring those things? How?”

    Did I say you in particular?

    Whenever homosexuality comes up on a blog or on tv it’s sure to elicit tons of comments and interest.

    When someone accurately notes that we’re a bunch of pride filled fat asses…not so much.

    We love to take shots at people who sin in ways we’re not tempted to.

  54. Michael says:

    “I know many wonderful Christian women who are approaching middle age and have all their lives wanted to be married but for one reason or another, never found a husband. These women remain pure. No one really cares about how their frustrations, it’s just expected that they will remain chaste. ”

    Excellent point…

  55. Tim says:

    Xenia –
    I agree…I’ve known several women who fall into the same category, and they are indeed heroines in their faithfulness.

  56. Michael says:


    I have NEVER said that there are not things we must separate over.

    I’m saying the list is a lot shorter than your ODM buddies would have us believe.

  57. Josh Hamrick says:

    Ok, point taken, and I agree. I commented on homosexuality because it was a point raised in one of the links. It is for the exact reason you mentioned that I haven’t commented on the other Knapp threads, and I should have quit while I was ahead.

    In the sense that the church views homosexuality as the one special. unforgivable sin; you are right. There are plenty other sins in the church that noone wants to address, and in fact, we’re down-right comfy with them.

  58. Josh Hamrick says:

    And by the way – All that I meant is exactly what Xenia said…she said it m uch, mych better.

  59. Em says:

    Michael has earned the right to speak on topic A here this morning,- the rest of us, i assume, are only speculating as best we can and his #49 says it all IMO

    FWIW Michael’s #35 is one to keep in our frame of reference, too, the goal of marriage is a life partner, not simply a sex partner (course in this subject nothing is “simple,” i guess)

    the wonderful part of knowing the Lord in your later years (as all the physical appetites subside, if we let them) is the fact that He becomes so very all sufficient – we move more into the reality of all that He has revealed and does reveal to us here – it’s very joyous really

  60. Tim says:

    Michael –
    ““Jesus IS enough;”

    I’d like to know exactly what that is supposed to mean.”

    The same thing it meant to the Apostle Paul who had every right to take a wife, but didn’t. Who suffered unceasing hardship, but endured. Who knew what it was like to abase & abound, and stay faithful. I’ve no doubt it was miserable at times for him, too.

    Know I don’t write this with pride, contempt, or flippancy. I have no idea what it is like to live a life of celibacy. I do, however, know what it is like to live a life inundated with temptation. If Jesus is not sufficient for our times & trial now, than absolutely nothing will be.

    I never tell someone “Jesus is enough” to make them believe that life will be happy-smiley-roses all of their days. I tell people “Jesus is enough” because (1) it’s true, and (2) it’s in the days that are unbelievably miserable that I need to know my Savior is right there with me.

  61. Em says:

    Lord send us more Xenias – we need more Xenias

  62. Michael says:


    You’re a jewel as well…and I amen your Xenia comment. 🙂

  63. Shaun Sells says:

    Loved the deal on Elders, and I break the Sabbath every Sunday as a pastor – after all that is the only day of the week I work.

    I am excited Tim Tebow is a Denver Bronco – the truth is winners win, leaders lead, and players play. Tim is all those things. This article from Peter King of SI solidified the choice in my mind:

  64. Michael says:

    If Christian radio is washing their hands of Knapp, why is Hal Lindsey still on the air?

    How many times has that squirrel been married?

    Need I even mention CSN?

  65. Michael says:

    Shauns gravatar has made me discontent… 🙂

  66. BrianD says:

    Because Hal’s not a “Sodomite” or “faggot”

  67. Michael says:



  68. BrianD says:

    Those aren’t my terms, by the way, but the ones more likely to be used in American evangelicalism by more Christians than we might care to admit.

  69. Michael says:

    I’m glad the Broncos drafted Tebow because I was fearful the Vikings would.

    I don’t think he’s an NFL QB.

  70. Josh Hamrick says:

    I wish radio would wash its hands of Christian Radio.

  71. Michael says:

    Tom Schreiner will do a good job with Wright…maybe better than Piper.

  72. Michael says:

    Let me tell one more story before i let go of this.

    I have in my possession a video that a mega church pastor had shot of himself.

    The video is twenty minutes of his staff following him to different locations and taking pictures of him.

    It is a monument to narcissism unlike anything I’ve ever seen.

    That is totally kosher in the church today…he is a leader, Knapp is a pariah.

    What’s wrong with this picture?

  73. BrianD says:

    I stopped listening to Christian radio by and large years ago. law filled preaching; ambiguous song lyrics; rip offs of secular acts; sellers of health potions and gold; and the constant neo con babble and conspiracy theories disguised as prophecy updates make my soul miserable.

  74. centorian says:

    we like our pastors more than our singers…..

    and no doubt the push of the homosexual agenda has contributed some to the push back…

    and in the coming years, we will see what becomes of Knapp and that narcissistic individual and all his butt kissing minions

  75. Jim says:

    BrianD-thanks for the link!

    For the record, the lecture notes were from the private SGM pastors meeting at T4G. CJ specifically asked the pastors present to not share them with their congregations.

    Obviously, some pastors did not agree and sent them to me for publication. Although no one knows who they are, they are being referred to as “terrorists” by other SGM pastors.

    Why does this odd little group, which desperately longs to be considered mainstream, feel that it must hide material such as this from the congregations they serve?

    Oh wait… I think I just answered my own question.

    Thanks again!


    Jim @ refuge

  76. Tim says:

    “This is not this guys first time looking in the mirror and seeing the love of his life.”

    The situation isn’t funny, but I’m going to file that description away for later use. 🙂

  77. centorian says:

    I guess if I didn’t laugh, I’d go “ODM” on him……

    While I wouldn’t recommend his church, not welcome him in mine, nor walk across the street to hear him (just so we’re clear), I have to trust God that the unwitting individual who just wants Jesus is receiving something.. I sure hope so…

  78. I too have trouble with the saying “Jesus is the answer” or “Jesus is enough”. I believe he can transform us thru his spirit and as Tim mentioned, his love for Jesus motivated him to make certain lifestyle choices, but sometimes we use it like a prescription of medicine; “Take one Jesus and call me in the morning”.

    So the question what does it mean when we say “Jesus is enough” is a worthy one especially if we are going to tell that to a christian or person struggling with homosexuality. I think they deserve more than that

  79. Michael says:


    What a great line…wish I’d said it.. 😉

  80. centorian says:

    Pastor, pastor,
    A friend of mine from here and I roomed with a few bkm’s at one of the SPC a few years ago. They were nice guys, but it was obvious that they were enamored with a few of the big boys and had rarely had an original thought. My friend had a discussion ( I was out hangin’ with Tim and Vic) with them that got heated on their end. They could not fathom that someone would actually think differently than the status quo. 8)

  81. Michael says:

    Just to stop the email…

    Yes, I affirm that a homosexual lifestyle is sinful.

    I further affirm that unless I’m willing to weep with them, walk with them, and pray for them every step of their painful journey I should shut the hell up and go deal with my pride and my desire to do a lot of sinful things if I thought God was on vacation and I wouldn’t get caught.


  82. Michael says:

    We create the narcissist with our definition of success in the church…

  83. Pardon the Interruption says:

    2 Peter 1:3, ” His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness”.

    This is true for the woman who struggles with lesbianism, for the guy who married as a virgin and found his wife to be sexually unresponsive, and for everyone in between who calls upon Jesus.

    Know hope.

  84. Shaun Sells says:

    Michael – I just ordered the iPad (none 3g since we don’t have AT&T service in Wyoming). I am giving my laptop to one of our church plants and I am going to use a iMac at the office. I stopped taking my laptop home because it was a distraction. The church plant really would be better served with the laptop since the pastor doesn’t have office hours (or an office for that matter). Hopefully anything I need to be doing portably will be possible on the iPad – if not I will look real foolish! I currently use an iPod touch to run my Sunday slides – I am exited to use a screen big enough that I can read the slides also!

    On a more important subject –
    I currently have four new books on my desk that I am sure I will never find the time to read, but really want to.

    The Gay Gospel.
    Desires in Conflict – Hope for men who struggle with sexual identity.
    Restoring Sexual Identity – Hope for women who struggle with same-sex attraction.
    When Homosexuality Hits Home.

    I have one other I passed on to someone else, but I can’t remember the title. Point being as a church we need to figure this out. We have regularly had visitors who are homosexual and they need the gospel and our help. We have famililies who attend our churches who have family members who are struggling with homosexuality and they need answers of how to best minister to them.

    You can’t remove family from the radio – you must deal with them.

  85. Michael says:


    I was teasing…I’d have one in a heartbeat if I could afford it.

  86. Michael says:


    That is just another bit of wisdom that demands you write a book. 🙂

    I think you have nailed it about how each local culture is different…

  87. Michael says:


    On the other issue, you’re absolutely right.

    We’ll figure it out quicker here than most…because we can talk about it openly.

    So many of these issues are best worked out in community…

  88. Believe says:

    Michael said, “We create the narcissist with our definition of success in the church…”

    Yes…we certainly do.

    We need to keep contending and change the definition.

  89. centorian says:

    “you’re not in Kansas anymore”… I think that guy said a whole lot more than he intended.

  90. fyi says:

    Josh wrote: It really is a simple problem when you brake it down to the core issue, but noone wants to say that it is all about Jennifer Knapp being unable to control her sexual desires.

    I would disagree that she is unable. She is unwilling and that’s a huge difference. It also changes things when she becomes, in effect, an evangelist for her sin.

  91. Michael says:


    I hate to revisit this, but that kind of curt summation doesn’t do justice to the difficulty and pain we’re prescribing.

    Celibacy is brutal for most folks.

    Now you know why I’m so grouchy…. 🙂

  92. Believe says:

    Watching Walid Shoebats’ interpretation of the End of Days prophecy was revealing…at least to me.

    We have a true common “enemy”…and we should recognize this and find consensus on some issues…be more united in our Faith…and be ready for the final battle.

  93. Believe says:

    Michael said, “Celibacy is brutal for most folks.

    Now you know why I’m so grouchy….”

    LOL…celibacy does suck.

    I was never any good at it. Thank God He has provided a guilt-free way for me to not be celibate.

    My heart goes out to my single brothers…one hetero and one homo…who are called to celibacy. Doesn’t excuse the sin…but I have compassion for them in what a tough one that is.

    It’s much easier for me not to be a jerk or be proud…but I sin in those areas all the time…and have an expectation that people should forgive me and that I should have 70 times 7 chances…and am still “saved”…

    It’s tough for someone who struggles with homosexuality to be separated out as more sinful and less redeemable than the rest of us…and in reality that’s how our rhetoric comes across to the Homosexual Community.

    It undermines our effectiveness, IMO, in reaching them with the Gospel.

    Knapp goes off the Reservation…when she doesn’t acknowledge the homosexual act as sin…but “we” go off the Reservation when we aren’t compassionate toward homosexuals…and we aren’t humble about our own struggles with sin…and are more responsible in communicating that our sins are just as bad as their sin…and that it is not the desire they have that is sin…but rather acting out on it that is sin..either lusting in their heart or committing the physical act.

    We also need to (IMO)…”allow” or give grace to them…equally as we do for all of our more tolerated sins within the Church…when homosexuals struggle.

    We are very gracious regarding pride and other issues at the Leadership level…not so gracious with regards to homosexuality…and the Bible warns that PRIDE is the great sin of all.

    So, in a sense, there is a hierarchy of sin…Pride is singled out…but we give a big ‘ol pass on that one…while singling out the Homosexual act as the “bogey man” in our Vapor. Just in my opinion.

  94. Xenia says:

    This new AZ immigration law is really stirring people up. I may have to off-load a few more FB friends….

  95. Believe says:

    X…don’t offload them…persuade them.

  96. Michael says:


    I was just thinking the same thing… 🙂

    They won’t be persuaded…

  97. centorian says:

    Shoebat’s interpretation is just that, an interpretation. While I would not sweep away his ideals it needs to be noted that during the 70’s and 80’s many were convinced that the anti-christ would rise out of the European Common Market. Some still believe the anti-christ will arise from out of the EU. Back then current events looked like they might line up with endtime prophecy, today there are different players and scenarios that look like they might fit.

    It seems that whatever the threat of the day is (perceived or real), then we look to assign characteristics of that threat to identify with antichrist. It has been that way throughout history. Keep looking up, not out.

    1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

  98. Xenia says:

    Believe, these people are extremely easy to offend. They sit on the edge of their sofas watching Fox News just begging to be outraged and offended. They live to be offended. They will not be persuaded because they think everyone who disagrees with them is a stupid sheep who can’t see the truth. Deep down they are racists, but they are too PC (oh, the irony!) to admit this.

  99. Josh Hamrick says:

    Good word centy.

  100. Believe says:

    X…boy do I know…I’m a recovering Conservative/Fundamentalist…and am repenting of areas that I believe are in error.

    Be patient…try to persuade through Scripture and being a good example…these issues aren’t as black and white as we sometimes think (IMO). Also, be open to some truths contained in that side of the argument.

    It’s tough to be truly independent in our Vapor. We tend to coalesce into groups and then preach to the choir…and call everyone else a heretic or ignorant.

    I agree that the greater truth regarding the Immigration Issue is to love our Mexican brothers and sisters in need. They are co-heirs in Christ…and many are good people. The gang-bangers and drug cartel thugs are unregenerate agents of the devil…and while we need to embrace our Mexican brothers and sisters in Christ…we need to be mindful of the other groups contained within the group we define as “illegals”…

    We also need to keep in mind that lawless gang-bangers and murderous thugs come in every race, every creed…that issue is not exclusive to any race. There are white gang-banger thugs that are as dangerous and evil as anyone.

    And it is the white Bankers, Politicians and Corporatists who have done more damage than the perceived or real damage to our economy that is blamed on the “Illegals”.

  101. Believe says:

    Centy said, “Back then current events looked like they might line up with endtime prophecy, today there are different players and scenarios that look like they might fit.”

    That’s the difference, IMO. All the other interpretations I’ve been exposed to…they are desperately trying to make Prophecy fit their premises.

    With Walid…his premises fit the Prophecy.

    An Eastern interpretation of an Eastern written Prophecy…makes a lot more sense to me.

  102. centorian says:

    but his heritage doesn’t necessarily give him a leg up on the rest of us…

  103. Xenia says:

    Part of the problem with these particular FB friends is that they live in parts of the country where the only Hispanics in sight are distant field workers. They don’t know any Mexicans personally so they can easily dismiss the whole group as “other,” not part of “we.” On the other hand, I am married to a man from Mexico and my granddaughter is over half Mexican and I live in a neighborhood that has become increasingly Hispanic over the years. I shop in Mexican stores and eat at Mexican restaurants. I speak a sort of broken Spanish that I am told is endearing. I include Mexicans in my idea of “we” because they are now my neighbors and family.

  104. Xenia says:

    Sorry to be so off-topic here but I figure it’s better to do a little ranting here than to blow up some family relationships on FB that are always a little fragile at best.

  105. London says:

    Xenia, that’s exactly how I felt when the Health Care Reform Bill passed.

  106. BrianD says:

    The rest of Linkathon just went up.

  107. Xenia says:

    London, yep.

  108. Em says:

    Xenia, you may not want to answer this and that’s fine, but in your close circle of Mexican family and friends are there any who have settled here without following the rules of legal immigration? And among them is there a consensus that our immigration laws are wrong? If so,are there constructive suggestions for improving them (immigration regulations)?

  109. Xenia says:

    Hi Em, I suspect a few of them got here illegally, but I never asked them about it. It’s sort of “don’t ask, don’t tell.” In some cases, it’s probably that they have overstayed a work visa or something similar, not that they swam the Rio Grande.

  110. Em says:

    thanks for answering Xenia, do i surmise that the whole immigration topic just isn’t discussed? – understandable
    considering how inept the federal government seems to be (sorry for those offended, it’s just my view, of course), maybe it’s best if they do just ignore it and let each state problem solve on its own – dunno

  111. centorian says:

    nice story Xenia…. I didn’t have the same experience growing up in a Mexican-American community.

    Growing up in a mixed racial area, all of us were color-blind until middle school. Then La Raza became big in the late 60’s and the hispanics would have nothing to do with us anglos… Next thing you know they chartered a gang, then another…… many of these guys that I attended school with and were one times friends with either were killed or ended up in the pen.

    Anglos were not welcomed in their park, another friend of mine who lived down my street (an anglo) was killed late one night just because he was white and walked through the park. It was my hispanic next door neighbor ( who was also my friend) who killed him.

  112. Xenia says:

    Centy, thankfully, there is no gang activity in my town but the nearby town of Salinas has a serious Mexican gang problem. I did experience a little racism of the “stay out of our park” variety when a different ethnic group ruled the roost 25 years ago.

  113. Xenia says:

    I’ll concede that because of my irritation with certain family members I am painting an overly rosy portrait of Hispanics in America. My own experience has been very rosy and altogether positive but I do realize that this isn’t the way it is everywhere.

  114. Eric Hoffman says:

    I’m all for enforcing the laws of the land, but….the way this bill is set up is wrong in my book. I’d to go on vacation with my soon-to-be-wife, who is 50% Mexican, and get hassled and possiblt detained merely because she’s a little extra-tanned.

    On the homosexuality part….Lighthouse Trails has uncovered the dilemma:

    “Lighthouse Trails believes that the homosexual lifestyle is part of the New Age movement…”

    And all this time I’ve believed it’s a sin issue resulting from the Fall.

  115. Em says:

    i’m not sure how to feel about the Phoenix ID thing… think of all the places and transactions today that ask for a driver’s license, or more ID – things that in my memory were never required until recently… and by the way, i’ve always been asked for my driver’s license ID when “pulled over” 🙂
    it would be risky for the police to stop someone without cause these days… a good natural tan is not a cause that would hold up in court, but it might make some of us more careful drivers 😆

  116. centorian says:

    An interesting trend, many hispanics moved here in the past five years. Now because of the economy, many have moved away…

  117. Believe says:

    Regarding the economy discussion part of this eclectic thread:

    “Risks of a major accident from derivatives use remain — or may even be on the rise — amid a wave of re-leveraging, according to an expert of the causes of the global financial crisis.

    Noted financial author Richard Duncan said banks and other financial institutions are beginning to pile back into the opaque financial instruments, as the total value of such contracts is “probably back” to $650 trillion.

    “This is a grave threat not only to the financial sector but also the entire global economy,””

    The Immigration issues are minute compared to the Derivatives market…$650 TRILLION…that’s a mind-numbing number…Buffet calls them the financial “weapons of mass destruction”…

    Could be the opening for Sharia Law to take over some day. It is mostly US, Eurozone and Asia that engage in these practices.

    Sharia Law…Islamic Banks…don’t participate in these practices…and may emerge unscathed in the event of an economic meltdown…beyond what we experienced on the heels of Lehman Brothers.

  118. Em says:

    Believe, Derivatives makes me smile – last summer i had to pick up a fella at the airport and ferry him to his destination about an hour away – to make small talk i asked him what he did for a living (he flew in from D.C.) – he said he was involved in cleaning up the derivatives mess and it looked like he’d have steady employment for quite awhile – i looked wise and said, “uhhu” cuz i’d heard of em, but i still don’t get it. He caught on to the fact that the conversation wasn’t going anywhere and we watched the scenery for most of the drive – i’ve often wondered what he really did 😆

  119. Shaun Sells says:

    Regarding homosexuality in the church, I have full faith in the church. I believe we will figure it out. It used to be unheard of for a druggie to enter a church building, but now most churches have some sort of ministry pointed directly at them. At the end of the day the church always figures it out.

    The big question is what do we do in the meantime?

  120. Believe says:

    Shaun S…we keep the discussion going (and rely on the Holy Spirit to direct us and convince others)…it’s how hearts and minds are changed…and how the greater truth in Scripture often wins out.

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