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68 Responses

  1. Bob Sweat says:

    Johnny Mac is getting a bit grumpy in his old age. By the way, today is National Grump Day.

  2. brian says:

    Great links lots to think about, Josh McDowell does have point in my opinion, will make comments on the others when I finish reading them. Thanks for making the list.

    From the Haters link is this youtube video

    Now I want to go sandpaper my eyebrows off. Be back later

  3. Steve Wright says:

    Bob Sweat – How can National Grump Day also fall on National I Love Lucy Day!!

    Something is not right there…..:)

  4. Steve Wright says:

    Sounds like this “new” (quotes deliberate) book my MacArthur is going to be little different in content or tone than the two prior books I read in seminary for my thesis. I think this is a shame.

    I don’t know if those other two books were launched with a big conference though…

    I’ll say this…if someone has the choice of Dr. Fee’s commentary on 1 Corinthians versus MacArthur’s commentary on that same book…there is no comparison as Fee wins by a mile.

  5. The world is now put back in proper order;
    Bob Sweat is FIRST!!!

  6. Ricky Bobby says:

    I think I’ll track down Daryl Wingerd and hit him with a rod….except that I would go to jail for such…yet he is allowed to advocate it and teach it and indoctrinate parents into doing it to kids who are virtually helpless to defend themselves.

  7. Ricky Bobby says:

    If an adult hits another adult with a rod, it’s assault.

    If a child hits another child with a rod, it’s a punishable offense, usually grounds for expulsion or “bullying” or even Juvenile detention etc.

    If a man hits a woman with a rod, it’s Domestic Violence and sometimes battery or Felony Assault.

    If a parent hits another adult’s child with a rod, it’s assault and civil liability etc.

    If a Christian* parent hits their own child with a rod, it’s “godly discipline”…and those teaching to do such are not accomplices to criminal behavior they are “god’s emissaries”.

    Fundamentalists are going to be in for major legal consequences eventually…and should be labeled as hate groups and aiding and abetting criminal activity if they continue to teach and practice such Taliban Old Testament practices.

  8. Johnny Mac has decided to take an either/or stance on charismatic renewal… Thus he hopes to rally the noncharismatic to a no compromise position that condemns. I think I briefly saw a snipe at John about his eschatology that posits the same either/or position about him. There is something inevitable about that. Does anyone remember when Hank Hannegraaf was the darling of Calvary Chapel and then he crossed them. I hope John M. is no more successful in his attempt but I think he may indeed be about to cast a fire of division that will cost us all dearly.

    Let’s see if we all live till Monday.

  9. Ricky Bobby says:

    The thing about Johnny Mac is that he’s right about the Cessationist issue…there are no verifiable supernatural manifestations, miracles, etc today. The evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of his argument and he strangely agrees with Skeptics and Realists on that issue. We have the empirically verifiable data and facts on the side of no supernatural manifestations in our day and age.

    Show me one verifiable supernatural manifestation. Just one. It’s always anecdotal evidence, but nothing solid.

  10. Ricky Bobby says:

    Pagans and occultists can’t demonstrate supernatural things like levitation, Charismatics can’t demonstrate real verifiable supernatural miracles only anecdotes and medical anomalies or psychosomatic manifestations or “soft” miracles…no hard miracles. Even the Catholics have given up on Lourdes as folks began watching closer and understanding science and medicine better.

  11. Ricky Bobby says:

    Heck, I’d take a supernatural manifestation from occultists, that would prove that supernatural stuff and “demons” and angels in the literal sense are running wild today.

    All the levitation stuff haven’t passed the mustard. No ouija boards, no things that go bump in the night. All a scam. Skeptics have debunked that stuff over and over…and Christians* don’t seem to question that…yet the same Skeptics apply the same scrutiny to Christian* claims of similar supernatural manifestations…and the Skeptics get the same conclusions: Nada.

  12. RB, have you ever looked up the Delia Knox healing?
    Most convincing I have seen. Verified that she was in a wheelchair for 20 years. Easy to see she’s walking today.

  13. Ricky Bobby says:

    Josh, hmmm. Seems that one has promise. Nothing conclusive that debunks it…but she won’t say what her doctors and physical therapists told her…so that’s a concern.

    Seems it’s true that was wheel-chair bound for a very long time and then got up and walked with assistance at the revival/healing meeting and then has walked un-aided since.

    The critical issue would be what her doctors said about it, knowing her medical history and injury…and what her physical therapists said. If they were confounded and had no logical explanation, then I’m inclined to believe it as a legit miracle…but she, unfortunately, intentionally leaves out what they said (from several articles I just reviewed). Why would she leave the doctor’s conclusions or opinion out? Makes me think he or she had a medical explanation.

  14. The thing about verifiable miracles is that no one who makes RB’s demand is ever satisfied with the threshold of proof that they require. Frankly he has no more reason to believe in the miracles of Jesus and maybe a good deal less. Interesting that we really only have testimony. Not evidence.

  15. Steve Wright says:

    Dread, MacArthur allows himself a way out. If confronted with something truly supernatural he says it is of Satan.

  16. Muff Potter says:

    MacArthur’s calling for Jihad again? Why am I not surprised? I bless Providence that our founders made sure that guys like these will never get the power they so dearly desire.

  17. Ricky Bobby says:

    Thomas, an Apostle, supposedly required “evidence” and got it.

  18. Steve,

    By Mac’s own definition either we or he is guilty of blasphemy. I can live with that.

  19. Scott Barber says:

    I have about zero percent background in the charismatic movement. My general feeling is that I’m not very comfortable stating what and what not the Holy Spirit can and will do. But a movement that goes from zero to hundreds of millions of professing Christians in the space of little more than a century… All the world over… Maybe we should stop trying to understand it, criticize it, and control it, and just rejoice.

  20. Ricky Bobby says:

    “Dread, MacArthur allows himself a way out. If confronted with something truly supernatural he says it is of Satan.”

    Hmmm. Could be some truth to that if the Cessationist/Dispensationalist/End Times’ist stuff is correct.

    Think about it:

    Revelation seems to state (in one of many interpretations/hermeneutics) that an Anti-Christ will come on the scene doing real miracles, real supernatural “signs and wonders”.

    Revelation also seems to possibly state that there will be some sort of one-world type construct unified around this Anti-Christ literal person that does real legit supernatural s**t and that the whole world marvels etc.

    OK. Then if you don’t get on board with this dude and his agenda, you get your head chopped off.

    Some in Islam are expecting the 12th Imam who they say will do miracles and supernatural stuff. If this dude shows up on the scene and does legit stuff, and comes to power in a sort of Caliphate and then makes believers of the world and ushers in some sort of temporary peace…and the “Christians” are in the way…and he cuts their heads off (very Islamic thing to do)…then maybe Mac’s right after all LOL.

    (this End Times scenario is hereby copyrighted October 2013, Ricky Bobby. All rights to books and movies are hereby owned by Ricky Bobby LLC).

  21. “Revelation seems to state (in one of many interpretations/hermeneutics) that an Anti-Christ will come on the scene doing real miracles, real supernatural “signs and wonders”.

    I don’t think that came from Revelation – I think it came from the Left Behind books.

  22. brian says:

    “I think it came from the Left Behind books.”

    Rev 13 “12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

    14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

  23. lordtheoden says:

    I fully support Johnny Mac on his position.

  24. brian says:

    This is a rather interesting invocation, actually I dont disagree, I think cities should have the right to invite who they want. But my irony meter pinged and broke while listening to it.

  25. brian caught me on that one. 🙂

    That caricature of a supposed anti christ (who is never mentioned by that name in Revelation) came from The Late Great Planet Earth – not Left Behind – silly me.

    No one thought of this guy as a supernatural boogeyman before Hal Lindsey.

    This is all Roman Empire stuff and the reign of terror being brought on the church. John is giving the church warning about what the current Roman Emperor is doing and will do in his efforts to destroy the church. But today’s current mindset inflicted on us by the dispensational pre millennialists, refuse to see this book in light of what it is, the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the comfort he offers the church – but just want to look at it as future Israeli history – Whacko stuff.

    This interpretation led by Lindsey and his classmates from Dallas is held by people who have never heard of pre mil dispey stuff – but it has taken over the American Church.

    The book of Revelation is a book on justification and comforting promise for the church as evidenced by the back and forth scenes of the terror on earth and the peace and joy in heaven,

    (I know that RB just threw out the Revelation stuff to talk about miracles… but what the guy does is not miraculous – it’s pure military terror.)

  26. Jtk says:

    “Maybe (Johnny Mac) should think about who really may be attributing the work of the Spirit to Satan.”

  27. Steve, MacArthur’s ‘way out’ doesn’t work. If John attributes something God does to Satan then he has a serious problem.

    And RB you have reached the place of being a “show me a sign” person in your insistence upon what you call verifiable. You won’t believe unless it is live action in front of your eyes and even then you would doubt. I have cited a book called Testing Prayer several times because it approached the matter of verifiable evidence. The book testifies both to successes and failures on the part of charismatic claims but it also testifies the the almost unapproachable threshold of “proof.” The book points out how difficult it is the offer anything a skeptic will count as verifiable.

  28. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Church doesn’t need saving, it will always be here. There will always be a remnant

  29. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    “How to whack your kids in the name of the Lord”

    What a tool bag this guy is! How about not discouraging your kids like it says in the Old Testament? No wonder some Church kids grow up with major issues. My parents beat me at times but they didn’t clothe it in religion they just got fed up with my mischeiviousness 🙂

  30. Something is VERY, VERY!!! fishy about the Billy Graham interview.

  31. j2theperson says:

    The Daryl Wingerd article is pretty ridiculous. Basing your entire beliefs about how discipline should be carried out on 7 verses in Proverbs is insane.

  32. I’ve seen that 12 reasons list in some form or another for a few years now. It makes me sick. It’s like Perry Noble wrote it.

  33. Rob Murphy says:

    I must inject a good read, recommended some years ago by j2theperson, which really has benefited me as a Dad: Grace Based Parenting by Tim Kimmel and Families Where Grace is in Place by VanVonderen.
    Whenever there’s a negative take on parenting, I like to offer those books as an option. Grace Based Parenting in particular really had a powerful effect on me. I look at God’s quality of shaping me in Zeph. 3.17 ‘he will quiet you with his love’ and it changed the way I look at discipline, structure and correction.
    Thanks again for that Jessica!!

  34. Ricky Bobby says:

    Dread said, “And RB you have reached the place of being a “show me a sign” person in your insistence upon what you call verifiable. You won’t believe unless it is live action in front of your eyes”

    No, like the Apostle Thomas, my doubts would be cleared up. Good enough for an Apostle, good enough for me. Show me the money…i mean miracle.

  35. Nonnie says:

    Josh (your 31)

    I was wondering how that “interview” was conducted. It seemed to be questions submitted and then answers submitted in writing. It didn’t sound conversational and I would think a face to face interview with BG at this time in life would have been video taped or at least still photos. I tend to agree with you. I had a hard time picturing BG typing those long answers out or even dictating them to someone. Usually in an article about an interview with a famous person, the interviewer writes a paragraph or two about how the meeting took place, where the meet took place, what the mood was like, he was dressed casually, etc, etc.

    I thought I read a few months ago that is family could not agree on where his burial site would be, so I was under the impression that he was not making a lot of decisions. If this is really him answering these questions, then I’m guessing he can give clear instructions as to where he wishes to be buried.

  36. Ricky Bobby says:

    Here, I’ll demonstrate. I’ll name and claim my “miracle”: BG confesses, repents and seeks reconciliation. Supposedly he’s a man of god or whatever. Should be a pretty easy “miracle” for God to do. I’m not even asking for Jesus to let me poke the holes in his hands and side. I’m not even calling down fire from heaven. Small simple little miracle…but probably more impossible than turning water in to wine…which I’d count as a legit miracle.

  37. Nonnie, most of the reports that aren’t directly from Franklin say that Billy is hardly able to communicate at all. From the few things I’ve seen and heard around here, I can’t imagine that he recovered enough to churn out that interview.

  38. Ricky Bobby says:

    Dread, do you consider Thomas the Apostle one of those “show me a sign” folks you describe? Didn’t Thomas witness so much from Jesus…yet still wouldn’t believe he rose from the dead unless he could poke the holes in his hands and side?

    Seems quite a glaring contradiction to your thesis of “seeking a sign is evil” or whatever.

  39. Xenia says:

    But Jesus said (to paraphrase) that while it was acceptable for Thomas to ask for a sign, those who believed without looking for a sign were more blessed.

  40. Ricky Bobby says:

    X said, “But Jesus said (to paraphrase) that while it was acceptable for Thomas to ask for a sign, those who believed without looking for a sign were more blessed.”

    Well that’s about a galaxy away from Dread’s “seeking a sign is evil” position. Seems it’s perfectly legit to seek a sign, as Thomas the Apostle did.

  41. Ricky Bobby says:

    The irony is that the overwhelming majority of those seeking a church like Dread’s are “seeking a sign”…and they think they get it among the Charismatic nonsense.

  42. Yeah, I don’t think Thomas was presented in an admirable light in that story, but he would make for an interesting case study. He certainly had some privileges that other believers did not have, then or now. Should we be able to claim every experience for ourselves that any of the Apostle’s experienced back then? Doesn’t seem likely.

  43. j2theperson says:

    I’m glad those recommendations were helpful to you Rob. I cringe when I hear people arguing that spanking is the “christian” way to discipline your child or that if you don’t spank your child won’t be disciplined. The “spanking is christian” thing seems based upon such flimsy biblical interpretation, and the idea that you cannot have a well disciplined child without spanking is flat out wrong. And the people that promote spanking never seem to deal with the studies that seem to indicate that physical punishment leads to increased aggression and emotional issues further down the road even if they result in a “well behaved” child at the moment.

  44. Ricky Bobby says:

    J2P I couldn’t agree more. The physical abuse both “godly spankings” and being hit that left bruises, drew blood, etc didn’t produce anything other than fear-based submission for a time and resulted in a tug toward violence-based conflict resolution. Basically, it turned me from a more peace-making and peace-seeking type child and person into a more hardened realist and “punch you in the mouth” type personality (when conflict arises).

    If you want your kids to be arseholes, just hit them with rods a lot. You’ll beat the Jesus right out of them, guaranteed.

  45. Kevin H says:

    When Chuck Norris does church security, even the devil gets saved.

  46. Kevin H says:

    When Chuck Norris does security at a multi-site church, he has no need for a video screen. He covers each site by teleportation and preaches the sermon at each in his spare time.

  47. Kevin H says:

    When Chuck Norris does church security, even the Methodists, Assemblyof God’s, and Catholics become eternally secure.

  48. Kevin H says:

    Okay, I’m done now. Sorry for the interruption. Carry on. 🙂

  49. I think a large part of parenting is experiential, meaning you just can’t learn it from any book. Not that we shouldn’t prepare in every way possible, but every child is different and will require different treatment.

    Spanking or not, the biblical principle is that a loving parent will discipline his child. That is true. Learning how that actually works can be incredibly difficult.

  50. j2theperson says:

    I attended a christian school when I was a child. I remember one day all of the kids in class started talking about how their parents spanked them, and it was a mark of distinction to have parents who spanked really, really super hard. It seemed really messed up to me.

  51. Chile says:

    Josh said, “Spanking or not, the biblical principle is that a loving parent will discipline his child. That is true. Learning how that actually works can be incredibly difficult.”

    I so agree. When someone is done with the instruction booklet, would you please pass it to me? I have one child that totally stumps me.

  52. Chile says:

    Kevin H said,

    “When Chuck Norris does church security, even the Methodists, Assemblyof God’s, and Catholics become eternally secure.”

    Oh, I’m so going to quote you! LOL!

  53. Chile says:

    Ricky Bobby said,

    “I’ll name and claim my “miracle”: BG confesses, repents and seeks reconciliation. ”

    I have to say the picture of this almost takes my breath away. If this miracle happened, I believe everyone of us would be overwhelmed by the power of God, focused on Jesus’ love, and filled with joy for both RB and BG! All the acrimony would melt away instantly (if BG’s repentance seemed credible) and the world would tilt on it’s axis!

    When BG knee bows to Jesus, as everyone’s will, he will know the truth, at least.

  54. Ricky Bobby says:

    Personally, I’ll take a “sign”…and less blessed.

    Kevin H, one correction, Chuck Norris doesn’t “do security”. Security does Chuck Norris.

  55. Xenia says:

    RB, some folks need a sign and I think it would a wonderful thing if the Lord gave you one!

  56. Ricky Bobby says:

    X, I wouldn’t deny that miracle I specified above. I’d be all-in, doubts gone. I don’t think it’s asking much for an almighty and all powerful and just and good God etc.

  57. Michael says:

    Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
    (Jn 20:27–29)

    I think that implicit in the Lords response is the reality that those who read this in the future would have to believe the testimony of the witnesses, as Thomas should have.
    We walk by faith, not by sight.
    That does not mean that we are left without divine involvement in our lives.
    The other night I had to come home early from church because my lungs were so bad.
    As soon as I sat down at home, I got a Facebook message from one of our esteemed readers telling me that the Lord had laid me on his heart to pray for me…and he asked what the need was.
    I know he prayed and I know God answered because I’m not in the hospital and I’m doing better.
    Through the years here, the prayers of God’s people have held me up in remarkable ways.
    God has not given me much of what I wanted, but He has always sustained me and always done so through the prayers of His people.

  58. Steve Wright says:

    Seems like the whole Thomas event is 100% connected to belief that Jesus has indeed risen from the dead. Which of course is the essential part 2 to part 1 of the gospel (He died for your sins) that leads to salvation.

    Nothing about “a sign” or any random miracle to prove…whatever something one wants proved.

    So yeah, blessed are those who believe in the resurrection despite not having seen Jesus and touched Him as Thomas did.

  59. Steve Wright says:

    Glad you are better, Michael.

  60. Jim says:

    Romans 1 is instructive here as well.

  61. About the spanking, discipline, beat with a rod.

    I went to a French school for 3 yrs when I lived in France – age 10,11,12. The teacher used to walk around with what I remember looked like a pool cue and whack anyone, anywhere he wanted in class.

    When I was in Jr. high, back in the states, the gym coach used to give swat. The paddle had holes in it to avoid wind resistance – I think he named the paddle after me when I left..

    In high school, I was always in so much trouble (who would imagine) that i had so much detention time built up I had to “swat out” to graduate. I think I took over 20 swats in a 5 day period.

    I turned out OK 😉 People today are sissies.

  62. Ricky Bobby says:

    MLD said, “I turned out OK 😉 People today are sissies.”

    Nah, most of the guys in prison who are very violent and would make you squeal like a girl were brought up old school, too.

  63. I think the difference is discipline vs punishment.

    The army did some pretty serious disciplining also… but then I was there before the NEW army

  64. #47 was good.

  65. #63 “I think the difference is discipline vs punishment.” Yep.

    I was spanked and switched by whoever was handy and caught me screwing up. Parents, aunts, uncles, grandma.
    I turned out fine. No ill effects.
    There is a difference between discipline and abuse.

    Speaking of the army.
    I saw a drill sergeant make a guy attack a tree for an hour. Then had him run up and down stairs till he was totally exhausted.
    Discipline from my parents kept me out of some of the crazier Army disciplinary junk in boot camp.
    They had already taught me not to be a knucklehead.

  66. Ricky Bobby,

    Why do you believe Thomas’ testimony or rather the Gospel testimony about Thomas. It is just testimony not proof. You keep asking for proof. When people offer the testimony of those who have been healed you say then that it is not evidence and you will not believe. THEN I point out that what you are asking for is unlikely to be given you. Yes, partly because of your manner of insisting that it doesn’t exist.

    So I am glad to hear that you think you believe in the resurrection.

  67. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    I agree with RB

    You get enamored with physically disciplining your kids and you’ll beat the Jesus right out of them. Wierd how some Christian parents wear spanking their kids as a badge of honor. Why don’t they take Jesus words seriously about not discouraging your kids . Why is it that the Old Testament is the “go to” when it comes to things like this instead of Jesus words?

  68. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    “12 reasons why a Pastor stopped attending sporting events” sounds like another guilt trip to me that Pastors try to lay at peoples feet for not going to their stated services.

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