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68 Responses

  1. brian says:

    Its a long story and I am very careful because I dont want to be “sued for Jesus” ™ but yes Julie Anne has done a good job. These people are as serious ad a heart attack and they want to make us a “Christian” nation which will exclude Catholics, Anglicans EO most Pentecostals etc. That would not be much of a nation in my opinion. I will admit I am afraid of these people, they have spiritual gifts I dont have, they have money and they have power. That is a full house in some Christian spheres, grace is a royal flush on the first draw and that seems to make them very angry. Dont trust me read the comments on Julie Anne’s blog and on similar blogs.

    I will admit I am afraid of these people, they have God ordained retaliation, given I am an apostate I actually still fear such reprisal, goes to show what a low life I am. I get that, well I actually dont but I do for political correctness. I actually want to see all these apposing parties restored for the glory of God, if that does not show what an a apostate spawn of hell I am I dont know what will.

  2. brian says:

    Veggie tales generated income thus it was holy, the second it did not it was not holy and was the spawn of satan. If ever I got one single truth in the american evangelical church it was this. More sure than the resurrection itself. Economic viability was the only concern whatsoever. I get that, in spades. I dont know what that has to do with the Gospel of Jesus but that is rather irrelevant given the modern apologetic.

  3. Steve Wright says:

    I hope all read the Christian Zionism article. What a great historical review.

    May it serve as the large asterisk besides every claim “Dispensationalism didn’t exist until Darby”

    The seeds existed in lockstep with the Reformation and the return to the Scriptures.

  4. Steve,
    Balderdash! Because people thought of Jews returning to the land has nothing to do with dipensationalism. Come on, do you think when Newton wrote about Israel that he mentioned even once separate covenants? One for earthy Israel and One for the heavenly Church?

    Although the author footnotes nothing, I will bet that in any of his distant past examples will he reveal that anyone – no one thought or wrote about the two separate tracks that the Church and Israel are on.

  5. The Christian Zionism article is thought provoking and important. I agree with Steve that we must look afresh at it but I also agree with MLD that there is nothing in that article that beckons the embrace of the two people theology.

    I will read more carefully and return to this subject. However, let me emphatically state that any theology that leads to: 1) the persecution of any people group based on who they are in the flesh 2) the idea of partiality or favoritism of any people group based on who they are in the flesh… BOTH are antichrist and evil beyond imagining.

    A fresh study of Romans will confirm that salvation(covenant membership) was never by any other means than faith…

    Back to all of this anon

  6. OK, just came back from a 90 min walk / jog or as I call it my ‘old man shuffle’ around the neighborhood. I’m going to Hawaii for Christmas (1st vacation since 2002) and if I am going to fit into that Speedo, I need the workout. 🙂

    Is Christian Zionism the heart and soul of dispensationalism? I know they have concocted these 6 or 8 time periods (dispensations) but you don’t hear much of them anymore. Isn’t that the fatal flaw of dispensationalism?? Is there any indication that God changes his methods of how he has dealt with mankind???

    I think God is a steady eddy and has stayed the course.

  7. nomans says:

    Great article of icons. Xenia spent time years ago teaching me about the value and importance of icons. I have come to the conclusion that many Christians simply fear art, or anything else for that matter that stirs up great passion/emotion.

    Hope it’s ok to add one more link. Grown-ups murder a child in the name of Godly child rearing 🙁

  8. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Re: Doug Phillips, people need to start taking responsibility for their own walk with God and stop worshipping Man. If they would read their bibles they would see that men like him are tyrants and ignore Jesus teachings re leaders being servants and being last.

  9. PP Vet says:

    Hawaii – that sounds great.

    One of my adult children was just in for a few days.

    We were discussing theology, and I realized he sounded like MLD.

    Told him he had become a Lutheran without knowing it. Just as a result of his own personal pondering, apparently. He did not realize that. He may check out a Lutheran church.

  10. covered says:

    Hey PP, I hope that your son doesn’t get suckered into wearing a speedo like MLD did 🙂

  11. stupid says:

    There’s so much to disagree with here but for now I’ll say I loved #2 (though I strongly disagree with parts of it).

  12. Steve Wright says:

    The point gentlemen is that a more literal look at prophetic Scripture was undertaken concurrently with the reformation and it flies in the face of what MLD has said here forever about Israel’s return to the land having ZERO prophetic relevance to Scripture.

    As far as the evil beyond imagining and continual mischaracterizations of the doctrine…I have no time.

  13. Rob Murphy says:

    The prodigal pastor’s kids survey was interesting.
    Only 7% believe free will choices played a factor in a kid’s struggle with their faith.
    That right there is where your theology might blow up your thinking. If people cannot change the way they think – even young people – it removes a bit of responsibility of parents to engage our kids. That statistic result shows a thorough problem in thinking in the pastorate. I think it’s the biggest problem in the whole survey.

    Growing up as a p.k. (with an amazingly engaged and loving set of parents) I recognize that my failings were completely a product of my choices. Yes there are dirtbags in the church who do terrible things. There are horrible pastors and there are wicked, horrible pew dwellers, elders, deacons, ushers and janitors.
    Every choice I made that led me away from God was a choice I made under my own wind and will. If I’m looking to spread the blame for my own actions, that 7% stat fits nicely. If I am going to be an honest person, that 7% is dismissive of who I am and prohibitive to reconciling me to honest questions about my faith.

  14. erunner says:

    A friend on FB posted the link to the Costco story about labeling Bibles as fiction. I’ll be at Costco in the very near future so I’ll see if the same thing is happening there. Either way I don’t really get the angst, especially since it’s not verified this is Costco policy.

    If is is their policy I would still shop there lest I find myself what I was doing back in the day…. boycotting stores our pastor alerted us about. And then finding evil with the smurfs, disney classics, and non christian music. I’d end up boycotting everything as you’re sure to find something objectionable everywhere.

  15. filbertz says:

    you already fit the speedo…

    …if you wear it on your head. :mr green:

  16. Steve,
    ” and continual mischaracterizations of the doctrine…”

    Mischaracterizations??? I thought I was going to be accused of plagiarizing famous dispensational writers. 😉

  17. Ok,

    So JoMac is on this YouTube clearly disavowing that we who participate in what he calls strange fire are truly Christians.

    So here is my response.

    Apocalypse Dread

  18. And finally Mr Mac

    Here is the expanded response. Except here I am not sure who is in the Brando part. I just know the tenor and tone of this monologue lies in the weeds of an old man’s desire to purge the land.

    He would love to go all Brando on us…

    I often muse at how happy I am that Christians no longer possess the power of the sword because as has been said, “men never do evil so cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.”

    Blaise Dread

  19. Finally,

    As to what I called evil… there is nothing to react to in that statement unless.
    1. You believe it is proper to persecute someone because of their race
    2. You believe that God has a favorite people and all others are second. If you have that kind of nationalism or racism then we have a problem.

    If your theology tells you that God shows no favoritism, no partiality, makes not distinction between people over bloodline then we have no issue.

    I think it quite possible to have a different theology about end times and avoid any hint of such a stench.

    But behind a great deal of zionism is nationalism and behind some anti-zionism is more racism, a pox on both.

  20. Steve Wright says:

    I know this often falls on deaf ears here, but I will say it again.

    At its core – dispensationalism is about differences in hermeneutics. That is the starting point and that is why that article is fascinating and I for one appreciate the scholarship that went into it.

    I will also say this – which again I have said in the past here. Most Calvary Chapels are not consistent dispensationalists. Yes, we all are consistently pretrib and premill. But dispensationalism is NOT simply an eschatology that is pretrib and premill.

    In fact, if you stand the teachings of a truly dispensational place like Dallas Seminary, next to your average CC, you will find all sorts of differences.

    Chuck almost never used the word when he taught that I can recall. The School of Ministry did not teach dispensationalism as a doctrine. And the principles of dispensational hermeneutics are repeatedly violated when I listen to CC pastors – except when of course eschatology is discussed.

  21. Bob Sweat says:

    Good point Steve.

    Never witnessed a CC pastor using a Scofield.

  22. Our point is simple too. Pretrib Premil with the Israel focus is only possible in dispensational hermeneutics and when you find pretrib you find a dispensationalist of sorts. Inconsistency is never a problem because I am always amused that charismatics are pretrib. Seems to me they should be among those who believe in the presence of the kingdom. But nothing is more surprising than JMac and his calvinist/dispensational theology. Calvinism is thoroughly covenantal at its root and completely anti-dispensational.

    Of course the CC deal is that eschatology should be literal historical if possible, and it hardly ever is.

    But none of us doubts the diligence and thoroughness of our friend Steve Wright in theological and exegetical matters… and I mean that sincerely.

  23. victorious says:

    I love PK’s . I think the enemy has a bigger red X on their back than their parents. Their parents chose the front line battle and they have to come along for the ride.

  24. Steve Wright says:

    Our point is simple too. Pretrib Premil with the Israel focus is only possible in dispensational hermeneutics and when you find pretrib you find a dispensationalist of sorts.
    No argument there.

    Thank you for the kind words brother BD

  25. Rob Murphy says:

    @23 – Vic – that’s one thing I try and avoid, making my kids be along for the ride. We’ve vetoed as a family some ‘ministry related stuff’ that would have taken away from our time together. There are ‘untouchable’ items on our family’s weekly calendar – our time that will not be infringed by anything. What do you think are some practical things to mitigate that “along for the ride” out of control-ness that can occur?

  26. But the dispensationalist hermeneutic is flawed in that it requires readuing the Bible with the 8 dispensations in mind. This is the point I tried to make back at my #6.

    God has always dealt with mankind in the same manner throughout history – not in 6 or 8 different ways.

  27. Steve Wright says:

    God has always dealt with mankind in the same manner throughout history
    Wrong 100%

    Now, if you want to write that God has always decreed that salvation is by grace alone, through faith, based on the merits and sacrifice of the Lord Jesus and His resurrection that followed, then fine.

    But as to how God has “dealt with mankind” throughout history, you could not be more wrong.

    Words matter – especially when attempting to describe and then criticize a belief you personally do not hold.

  28. Rob Murphy says:

    Hebrews 1.1 Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets.

  29. God has always dealt with mankind through his law (his commands) and his gospel (his promises)
    In the garden – don’t eat from this tree (his command) – from the seed of the woman (his promise)

    David and Nathan 2 Sam 12 – you are the man … (his law) – So David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” & And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; (his gospel.

    It never changes – he may use different means, but it is always law & gospel.

  30. Steve Wright says:

    Wow. So the fact that God has always had commands and promises somehow negates a doctrine that affirms God has always had commands and promises.

    But then you say in the same breath “It never changes – he may use different means”

    I’ll let you figure out what you believe first…then we’ll talk. 🙂

  31. Here is the way I see this whole thing with the Strange Fire:

    Gifts are gifts and they are just that.
    A spiritual gift is not worship.
    In same way that everything in our lives is a gift from God, so are spiritual gifts.
    Gifts are given so that the receiver and those that see might worship and be blessed.
    Gifts result in worship, but they are not worship themselves.

    This is the main flaw in MacArthur’s reasoning.
    If gifts aren’t worship in themselves, then they could never be strange fire.

  32. Steve,
    “Wow. So the fact that God has always had commands and promises somehow negates a doctrine that affirms God has always had commands and promises.”

    That doesn’t make sense

    Look at your own charts – you have an age of Law and then later you have an age of Grace. What is that. I am just saying that God has always dealt with his people using law and grace … not these hundred years are law and these hundred years are grace.

    Here is one of your charts in case you forgot what it looks like

    All that time of Law and no Grace would make me cranky.

  33. I need to write to Lutheran headquarters – we don’t have any of these cool charts.

  34. Steve Wright says:

    you have an age of Law and then later you have an age of Grace
    MLD – Well at least that is a fair criticism. I’m not enamored with some of the traditional names for the dispensations because they are confusing and can lead the simple amongst us to wrong conclusions. 😉 Now, if dispensationalists actually taught what you believe (based on those names) then I too would have a problem with it.

    Although I would add that the Apostle John is “guilty” of the same “error”

    For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17

  35. “but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17”
    As it was promised in Gen 3:15 – but where you and i would differ, is that I know that the promise itself is the grace – right then in the garden … whereas you have it not happening until Christmas morning.

  36. Steve Wright says:

    You skipped the “law was given through Moses’…you know, in your criticism of us having a dispensation titled “Law” that began with Moses.

    And please don’t say what I believe 🙂 Every dispensationalist I have ever heard sees the promise of Christ in Genesis 3.

  37. stupid says:

    1. Combining native spirituality with Christianity…

    This isn’t too different from what I and many other hippies went through. Why should they have to worship Jesus like the white man? If their theology is right the rest is merely cultural.

  38. stupid says:

    2. One way love and the phone store…I love this one…

    I love the way the father listened to the Lord and how he explained the principles. What I disagree on is that the teenager got free goodies. I bet if we dug a little we’d find that those goodies contributed to his rebellion. Not the goodies per se but that they cost him nothing.

  39. stupid says:

    3. Julie Anne has done a tremendous job covering this story…

    Yes, Jezeblog is great!

  40. stupid says:

    4. It’s Hard To Speak About These Things In Public. So He Drew This Instead…

    May the perp be brought to justice and may God save the victim.

  41. stupid says:

    5. How to make a big deal out of nothing…

    It may be a big deal to some. it is more than nothing. It saddened me. Our culture has been marginalizing God in increments for many years.

  42. stupid says:

    6. Outsiders…

    Just building on #5 above. I do get tired of sermons that do nothing more than state the obvious. “People are bad. For instance…”

  43. Steve,
    1.) you are talking THE LAW was given through Moses – that is not the law.we are discussing here – I was clear, God’s law is his commands – “do not eat of this tree” is one of them.

    2.) “Every dispensationalist I have ever heard sees the promise of Christ in Genesis 3.”
    I know that you see the promise, that Jesus will one day come – nice promise, I like it. However, I also see God’s grace actually, emphasis on the actually, being dispensed right there in the garden. God’s law and God’s gospel – right there from the beginning – not just distant promises that will show up in future dispensations

    3.) Hey we’re still buddies 🙂

  44. stupid says:

    7. Pastoral views on immigration reform…

    All immigrants should be reformed. Then they should all go to Pastor John MacArthur’s church where he reforms them into JM clones.

  45. Steve Wright says:

    you are talking THE LAW was given through Moses – that is not the law.we are discussing here
    If you are talking (and complaining) about one of the dispensations being named “Law” then it most certainly is what we are discussing here.

    If you move the goalposts again to talk about law as simply God’s commands which have changed from dispensation to dispensation (i.e. don’t eat of that tree) then that is ground we covered earlier

    Have to run for most of the night. Yes, we are still buddies. 🙂

  46. stupid says:

    Great piece on the law…

    Was James Gunn making a point about vigilantes or reminding us of the Law of God? Not too different than Batman. No wiggle room in that suit.

  47. stupid says:

    Methodists convict pastor for same sex marriage…

    Glad to hear it. Let the guy go start his own church if he wants to change the rules. By the way, is this Frank the son of Francis?

  48. stupid says:

    MLD plays with goal posts.

  49. stupid says:

    Bells shatter a November morning…

    I remember exactly where I was.

    UPI is no longer because the powers that be said “We will not have this man to rule over us” and rejected Pat Robertson’s offer.

  50. stupid says:

    Look at all these stupid posts.

  51. stupid says:

    Christian tippers…

    This used to be me back when I was mostly broke. I grew up and got a job. I appreciate servers more now. I think it’s normal to go through this phase but not for a pastor, even if he’s poor.

  52. stupid says:

    The rise and fall of Veggie Tales…

    This is old news but it’s refreshing.

  53. stupid says:

    Well, it’s stupid to talk to one’s self.

  54. Tonight for the first time… I am sickened by my city and I no longer want to call it home. This must be a taste of Babylon. I will have to renew my heart to survive.

  55. John Shaffer says:


    What was it that was making you hopeful?

  56. Ignorance.

  57. brian says:

    Goodness I am so sorry Michael and others, it just seems late at night I turn into this other creature of depression and bitterness. I have some insightful things to say and I think I have a unique voice and pov but it gets lost with all the negative self flagellating drivel. To be honest it is not just here but at work to. I am like the rock of depression and cynicism. It gets old, as someone told me today. Take care again my apologies to the group I really am trying, its just the first rain and it always plays heck with my joints. But that it not an excuse, even though I use it as one and pretend Im not using as an excuse.

  58. Michael says:


    I have no issues with your posting.
    It’s honest and I think it’s appreciated.
    Write what you please.

  59. John Shaffer says:


    Cheer up! If your cyclic view of Revelation is correct, …if we hold on long enough we are bound to hit another “up” cycle eventually!

  60. Julie Anne says:

    Brian said:

    I will admit I am afraid of these people, they have spiritual gifts I dont have, they have money and they have power. That is a full house in some Christian spheres, grace is a royal flush on the first draw and that seems to make them very angry. Dont trust me read the comments on Julie Anne’s blog and on similar blogs.

    Michael – thanks for linking to the blog and the kind words. I appreciate it. The Phillips story is personal for me because he was instrumental in influencing our family on a very dangerous path that has had some lasting negative effects.

    Brian – now you’ve got me curious – – are you talking about Phillips or someone else?

  61. brian says:

    No not him personally but I ran in some of the same circles and some of them made Phillips look liberal but it was on a personal level they had not gotten to the level he had. Some like him were looked at as pillars and Gothard played a big roll in the development of many I was involved with. I went to one of his seminars and I had to leave, it disgusted me and that cost me a few friends for a bit but we made up. I admit to having a huge chip on my shoulders, much of it of my own making but I saw so many people get caught up in these extreme expressions of the Christian religion and I tend to gravitate towards the fringe.

    I am talking about all of them, I have seen “them” in action and in personal experience. Not Mr. Phillips but the same type of defensive responses. They scare me especially if they gain the secular sword, they will use it. I am sure these people are kind in personal encounters but if one takes their beliefs to their logical conclusion it can be scary. I am talking about the entire “We have the only truth crowd”. Hope that helps but no I have no personal involvement with Mr. Phillips directly just some of his teachings, though I jumped ship well before he gained notoriety.

  62. brian says:

    Just a reminder, Nov 22 will be the 50th year of JFK’s assassination. I just finished my annual scanning of the Warren report, I actually have read through it several times. I still dont think it was one lone nut, but I can see why others do. I am sort of a conspiracy person in some ways, maybe its because I have been in close proximity to jack chick tracks. That is an attempt at humor. But remember Jack, a deeply flawed and wounded soul that held great hope for us as a species.

  63. Julie Anne says:

    Yes, that helps me to understand where you are coming from, Brian. Thanks.

  64. Anonymous says:

    Yes, Brian. The shot was from the front, at least the one that blew out the back of his head that they reconstructed for photos. No one on the grassy knoll was questioned. People still remember a gunman behind the fence, as well as a man who flashed Secret Service badge; though the Secret Service said they didn’t have anyone back there. Puffs of white smoke from the grassy knoll were spotted by people standing on the overpass. They were never questioned, either. You don’t have to be a regular conspiracy theorist to know there wasn’t a lone gunman from behind and that the investigation was shotty and controlled. And that’s just to scratch the surface. The information is out there, you just have to separate the noise and distraction from the facts.

    Now back to your regularly scheduled program …

  65. A link for your perusal.

    In a world filled with abortion, support your local pregnancy care center/crisis pregnancy center.

  66. David Sloane says:

    “It’s Hard To Speak About These Things In Public. So He Drew This Instead…”

    A part of the testimony of Lonnie Frisbee the evangelist was that, “When I told the adults what had happened to me no one would believe me. There was no one to rescue me”

    Lonnie was a child when a man made him get on his hand and knees with a butcher held to his throat as the man assaulted him sexually. After the event his family sent him off to bible camp where the councilor also assaulted him. Once again no one believed his story.

    I heard him tell the story where the first offender was his “step father” and I heard him tell another version where it was his “uncle.”

    Bottom line is something did happen and it wounded deeply. Near the end of his life Lonnie got to talk with an expert in such things, courtesy of John Wimber.

    It was then that he was able to speak openly about what had happened to him with me.

    The expert had helped him to find some peace in his soul.

    It is wonderful that the comic artist is doing something proactive to help other victims of abuse through the pain of his own past experience.

  67. Gary says:

    I’m sorry to hear that about Lonnie.

  68. brian says:

    I wont share any details but I can relate to Lonnie what I have come to learn, I had it coming and I was responsible, it was my fault. I get that. For some reason even before I existed as a person I had decided to have this happen to me. And it was all my fault. I agree with that, it was my fault, I have repented of it, even though I could not get that aspect. But even after repenting I could not be forgiven, even the cross was not enough. I even agree with that though I do not understand it. You know I lived a celibate lifestyle since becoming a Christian because I thought it was the right thing to do, but even in that I was sinning and manipulating the faith.I never understood that but I am sure I am wrong and an affront to God. I dont want to be an affront to God, but it was made clear that I am.

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