I remember Ruth Graham telling a story about driving with Billy and listening to a sermon on the radio. Billy exclaimed, “Hey, he stole my sermon.” Ruth said that she replied, “Who did you steal it from?” Her point was that nothing is new in God’s truth. Anyone who teaches is using the work of someone else in one way or another.
I agree though, that if I read someone’s book and then knowingly “use” their material in a talk I present, I should mention that I gleaned much of what I will be speaking on from “so and so.” Same if one is writing a book or an article.
I was thinking the reason he keeps blogging is because of the article that explained that certain bloggers can make a living off of their writing. Michael is an excellent writer, but the article states that “skill” doesn’t count as much as “hits” on the internet. (if I understood the article)
Michael, I’m glad you blog. I learn much here and have “met” some incredible people.
In order to get a book published you have to have a “platform”.
I don’t like self promoting anymore than you do, but getting a job at my age with my health has proven impossible so far…and I need to find a way to support myself.
Today we are actually running some ads that I hope will help that…but the key to making it all work is a healthy blog.
I’m out of other options…
Nonnie…thanks, I honestly was worn out the last couple days. Just with the pace of the week. Then I read Bonhoeffer this morning and things came back in perspective.
Michael…hoping the ads help, and hopeful as well for dialog to be sparked and new people to engage.
The trouble with a publishing house accepting a new author based on social media popularity is that some of the most thoughtful, Christ-like people I know do not participate in FB or Twitter or read blogs. (I know plenty of godly people who do participate, too.) It makes me sad that books are being published based on this. It is hard to imagine a lot of deep material coming out of this system.
Media is a business. Like just about everything, it can be used for good or evil. It requires promotion.
In 21st century America, depending on an employer for income is IMO dangerous if not foolish. Make something and sell it, as Paul did. It is smart and honorable.
Michael has a gift which has been honed through blood, sweat, and tears. I remember him telling me in early 2008 something like, “I wake up and think, what should I write?”. I remember thinking, “how horrible”. My gifting is much different, so I couldn’t relate to someone whose first waking thought was, “what can I share with the world before I go to work today?”
My prayer is that Michael would fully and without apology embrace the business end of the process so that those who have never heard his name can joyfully imbibe the fruit of his labor (the product), and that Michael can joyfully imbibe the fruit of his labor (the earnings).
Without producers and consumers, we’d all grow our own food, build our own homes, make our own cars, etc. Who would tell the man who built their home, “I love this place, but you want me to pay you for this? You’re going promote your home building ability so that you can build homes for others? That’s horrible!”
This endeavor is honorable and good, because the man behind the endeavor is honorable and good.
Re: congregationalism. This is just anecdotal on my part but the absolutely worst church situations I ever encountered, including one that approached Xenia-abuse, happened at a congregationalist church. The rotten stuff that happened there far, far exceeded anything that ever transpired at my Moses-model CC.
I have several friends who went to Southwestern Seminary. It is a great school. A couple fo years ago one of them posted a picture of the Rick Warren stained glass there. I thought it was a joke, but no…it’s for real. I don’t know who thought these windows were a good idea.
Ray Price died today
Joan Fontaine died yesterday
Tom Laughlin (Billy Jack) died the other day
Peter O’Toole died
Don Mitchell died
Elenor Parker died.
I’m with Jim above. A couple years ago Rick Reilly, (who is no doubt a millionaire columnist and rose to status well before the internet) told a graduating class of journalism majors not to write for free. Google that and you can see all sorts of different opinions to that speech – and of course, one could ask if he is the guy who could say such a thing credibly given he grew up in a different universe.
However, I have noticed more of this discussion, and I just throw this out there as an example of an interesting development in our world. Huffington Post is an example of a multi-million dollar website and yet a large reason for that success is unpaid writers. Here’s an interesting link..
I think Michael has the chops to be paid for his writing skills. I don’t know if this blog is the avenue for that or not, but I hope it comes to pass somehow, someway.
Sorry to barge in but…. Could a kind soul provide me some information for my brother who is looking for information on the Nicaea council and those in attendance. Nothing from Wiki please. Thanks.
Great article on presbyterian ecclesiology. Its well argued but I’m still not convinced. I don’t know how to fit this sort of “flat” pattern of authority with the more paternal pattern of discipleship we see in the NT and in writers like Clement and Ignatius.
BTW, I know the St. Nick thing was a whole different council , but I couldn’t resist. 🙂
MLD,
I know you gave a class on the Athanasian Creed.
I was looking for something on the internet that showed it with scripture references for each part and have come up quite empty handed for some reason.
Even downloaded an app that was supposed to do that, but did not show the verses.
Could you post something like that on here…or anybody that has handy reference could do the same?
Really something really simple like the creed with references built in would do. I can do the rest of the research myself.
Derek,
I used this in parts. It’s from the Catholics and has the scripture ref and the link to their catechism.
But I also used my reference links in my bible to follow up on some of the references – in other words, if the reference wasn’t right on point I search a couple of reference links to find stronger or more supportive verses.
If you are like me and would like to participate in #freesaeed, but you work most of the day.
Here are a bunch of Administration twitter accounts and State Department.
I use Tweetdeck and schedule them throughout the day.
When I get breaks, I have browse #freesaeed and #savesaeed on my Twitter app and retweet a lot of them.
I have actually followed and been followed by a lot of interesting people through this campaign. A lot of people with a lot of energy to help Pastor Saeed.
Maybe the Southern Baptists could immortalize the futurists in their next installment of stained glass heroes.
As one who lived through the SBC takeover … I gaged a lot when I saw this article. I was SBC from June 1974 when I was baptized till July 2000 when my visit to the SBC annual meeting convinced me that I could no longer in conscience remain SBC. My last official day as a Baptist pastor was July 23, 2000. It was the greatest single release of stress in my life. It probably lengthened my life by years.
Most of those being immortalized by (strangely) black and white stained glass are men that I personally met or at least was engaged either in their ministry or in conflict with them. I remember the week I rejoiced at the election of Adrian Rogers election as president of the SBC and the day 15 years later that I stood in a meeting moderated by him and spoke against the public renunciation of my senior pastor.
The SBC controversy was when I learned that in religious wars victory means more than truth. It was when I learned that inerrancy was an ideal that meant more as a theory of scripture than as a way of treating other people. Let me be clearer. We were more concerned about how we spoke of the Bible than how we applied the Bible to one who disputed the theory.
For twenty years I heard more passionate preaching about the text than the Savior. I hate inerrancy most of all for missing the point. We redoubled our efforts and forgot our purpose. I cannot imagine the shame of being immortalized in that battle.
Upon further review black and white stained glass is perfect for that era. Portraying the champions of that controversy in gray is wonderfully ironic. Things are not quite what they seem.
Josh,
Warren was a complete non-player in the controversy but he is seen as a bridge to the next era. I just think he is too big to leave out and he is relevant today and not much in the SBC is relevant to the larger Christian community. There is also the very strong tie he has historically to WA Criswell. I recall a great affinity to the man and some direct history but the details elude me.
I note the following after effects of the controversy….
1. The SBC went into numerical decline after this battle and had to take its place among the denominations that they once stood over against.
2. The displaced ‘liberals’ incessantly predicted ongoing infighting would follow when the smoke of inerrancy cleared. That has proven true with the follow-up resurgence of Calvinism.
3. The young church planting SBC pastors all eschewed the name Baptist in their churches and opted for keeping their Baptist connection beyond the front door. They realized that being SBC was no longer inviting to the general pubic
Despite all of this I owe much to the SBC and do not regret my time among them.
I’m fascinated by the controversy period of the SBC. DId some of my Master’s work on it. I have read every book available, hundreds of articles, notes from the conventions of that decade, etc. With no emotional attachment it is just a terribly interesting historical period for a denomination. I can sort of see both sides in 3D, the good points and bad points, all that.
I always enjoy your take on the SBC controversy stuff, as you were a participant on the “other side”. My pastor was at Southeastern during the days of student demonstrations and being put on probation by the accrediting agencies. I love hearing about that stuff from him too, though he still finds it painful.
As to your points, they are true but I want to add a little here and there:
1. The SBC was already in decline. That was part of the reaction. The conservatives thought the liberals were causing the decline, and that if they won the battle, growth would return. They were wrong about that, as decline has been steady since the controversy has basically ended. My true opinion is that the SBC has just reached its saturation point. It stopped growing because nothing grows forever.
2. That’s true, and I’m guessing Baptists will be fighting forever. I’m not familiar with the operations of other large denominations, but I can’t imagine that they don’t all have big disagreements.
3. Again, true, but more of a cultural thing in general than a SBC thing, specifically. The vast majority of new church plants are not called by a denom name. Many have tried to not be called “church” at all. It’s not just the SBC that people find creepy…it’s anything related to Jesus.
But yeah, good thoughts. Always good to hear them.
Off topic, but the new ads on the side are a hoot, Michael. Here’s one that came up for me today:
“Phoenix Preacher
Cheap Prices and Huge Selection. Phoenix Preacher on Sale!”
So, you are available to the highest bidder, eh? And who knew you could get the Phoenix Preacher in your choice of color and size? I thought you were one-of-a-kind, but apparently there is a HUGE SELECTION. Hmmm…
Well, hopefully the ads will fine-tune as the weeks go by, but I must admit I was intrigued about buying my own Phoenix Preacher. I hope they put airholes in the box when they ship your clone out.
Michael
Many thanks for including us!
I remember Ruth Graham telling a story about driving with Billy and listening to a sermon on the radio. Billy exclaimed, “Hey, he stole my sermon.” Ruth said that she replied, “Who did you steal it from?” Her point was that nothing is new in God’s truth. Anyone who teaches is using the work of someone else in one way or another.
I agree though, that if I read someone’s book and then knowingly “use” their material in a talk I present, I should mention that I gleaned much of what I will be speaking on from “so and so.” Same if one is writing a book or an article.
TP,
It’s my pleasure!
Michael…thanks for including me ;). Feels strange to be part of the links…that is for ‘real’ blogs!
Sarah’s article is excellent. She encouraged me today!
Sarah…you’re a “real writer”. .. and a good one. 🙂
Not sure what that link has to do with why you keep blogging.
Anyone who chooses the path of self-promotion gets their reward.
I was thinking the reason he keeps blogging is because of the article that explained that certain bloggers can make a living off of their writing. Michael is an excellent writer, but the article states that “skill” doesn’t count as much as “hits” on the internet. (if I understood the article)
Michael, I’m glad you blog. I learn much here and have “met” some incredible people.
PP Vet,
In order to get a book published you have to have a “platform”.
I don’t like self promoting anymore than you do, but getting a job at my age with my health has proven impossible so far…and I need to find a way to support myself.
Today we are actually running some ads that I hope will help that…but the key to making it all work is a healthy blog.
I’m out of other options…
Nonnie,
Thank you!
Nonnie…thanks, I honestly was worn out the last couple days. Just with the pace of the week. Then I read Bonhoeffer this morning and things came back in perspective.
Michael…hoping the ads help, and hopeful as well for dialog to be sparked and new people to engage.
Sarah,
So far we’ve made a penny.
Everything starts somewhere… 🙂
The trouble with a publishing house accepting a new author based on social media popularity is that some of the most thoughtful, Christ-like people I know do not participate in FB or Twitter or read blogs. (I know plenty of godly people who do participate, too.) It makes me sad that books are being published based on this. It is hard to imagine a lot of deep material coming out of this system.
For example, three of my closest friends do not have FB or Twitter.
Media is a business. Like just about everything, it can be used for good or evil. It requires promotion.
In 21st century America, depending on an employer for income is IMO dangerous if not foolish. Make something and sell it, as Paul did. It is smart and honorable.
Michael has a gift which has been honed through blood, sweat, and tears. I remember him telling me in early 2008 something like, “I wake up and think, what should I write?”. I remember thinking, “how horrible”. My gifting is much different, so I couldn’t relate to someone whose first waking thought was, “what can I share with the world before I go to work today?”
My prayer is that Michael would fully and without apology embrace the business end of the process so that those who have never heard his name can joyfully imbibe the fruit of his labor (the product), and that Michael can joyfully imbibe the fruit of his labor (the earnings).
Without producers and consumers, we’d all grow our own food, build our own homes, make our own cars, etc. Who would tell the man who built their home, “I love this place, but you want me to pay you for this? You’re going promote your home building ability so that you can build homes for others? That’s horrible!”
This endeavor is honorable and good, because the man behind the endeavor is honorable and good.
Re: congregationalism. This is just anecdotal on my part but the absolutely worst church situations I ever encountered, including one that approached Xenia-abuse, happened at a congregationalist church. The rotten stuff that happened there far, far exceeded anything that ever transpired at my Moses-model CC.
I have several friends who went to Southwestern Seminary. It is a great school. A couple fo years ago one of them posted a picture of the Rick Warren stained glass there. I thought it was a joke, but no…it’s for real. I don’t know who thought these windows were a good idea.
“some of the most thoughtful, Christ-like people I know do not participate in FB or Twitter”
I don’t FB nor Tweet, but I often miss the first part, “most thoughtful, Christ-like.”
Camping. Gone.
CrouchSr. Gone.
SmithSr. Gone.
Nice to not be distracted by the constant End-Times stuff.
Jim,
Thank you very much, my friend.
Ray Price died today
Joan Fontaine died yesterday
Tom Laughlin (Billy Jack) died the other day
Peter O’Toole died
Don Mitchell died
Elenor Parker died.
God must be thinning out the arts community
Ray died yesterday…one of the all time greats.
I’m with Jim above. A couple years ago Rick Reilly, (who is no doubt a millionaire columnist and rose to status well before the internet) told a graduating class of journalism majors not to write for free. Google that and you can see all sorts of different opinions to that speech – and of course, one could ask if he is the guy who could say such a thing credibly given he grew up in a different universe.
However, I have noticed more of this discussion, and I just throw this out there as an example of an interesting development in our world. Huffington Post is an example of a multi-million dollar website and yet a large reason for that success is unpaid writers. Here’s an interesting link..
http://www.carseywolf.ucsb.edu/mip/huffpo
I think Michael has the chops to be paid for his writing skills. I don’t know if this blog is the avenue for that or not, but I hope it comes to pass somehow, someway.
Sorry to barge in but…. Could a kind soul provide me some information for my brother who is looking for information on the Nicaea council and those in attendance. Nothing from Wiki please. Thanks.
You can read them here…
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea1.txt
There are a zillion books on the topic.
Erunner, I think MLD was there. Ask him.
*rimshot*
Sorry MLD. You are the only one who fit the joke.
Thanks Michael. Josh… love your humor!! 🙂
It was me and a couple of other guys – we voted to make Jesus God. 🙂
Great article on presbyterian ecclesiology. Its well argued but I’m still not convinced. I don’t know how to fit this sort of “flat” pattern of authority with the more paternal pattern of discipleship we see in the NT and in writers like Clement and Ignatius.
Weird, I can get on the website on my phone, but not on my computer.
I second Jim’s prayer.
Thank you for being there, MLD 🙂 You were awesome.
MLD and Michael, Some JW’s are stating the Nicean Creed was developed by apostate men. Imagine that…
But, Josh, did he get to slap a heretic like good St. Nick?
I’m thinking MLD was the one who got slapped.
Lol
BTW, I know the St. Nick thing was a whole different council , but I couldn’t resist. 🙂
MLD,
I know you gave a class on the Athanasian Creed.
I was looking for something on the internet that showed it with scripture references for each part and have come up quite empty handed for some reason.
Even downloaded an app that was supposed to do that, but did not show the verses.
Could you post something like that on here…or anybody that has handy reference could do the same?
Really something really simple like the creed with references built in would do. I can do the rest of the research myself.
Derek,
I used this in parts. It’s from the Catholics and has the scripture ref and the link to their catechism.
But I also used my reference links in my bible to follow up on some of the references – in other words, if the reference wasn’t right on point I search a couple of reference links to find stronger or more supportive verses.
Give a look
http://www.awakentoprayer.org/creebibleref.htm
oops, wrong creed – I did a set of classes on each. Let me look again when I get home.
Aha!
Thank you! That seems to be exactly what i was looking for.
Oh wait…No that is the Nicene Creed. Had a link to the Athanasian, but with no scripture refs.
Sorry, should have read first.
It is fine. If you post it I can bookmark it. Thanks.
If you are like me and would like to participate in #freesaeed, but you work most of the day.
Here are a bunch of Administration twitter accounts and State Department.
http://ruminationsonlife.wordpress.com/2013/12/17/tweet-the-administration-wednesday-about-freesaeed-savesaeed-share-this-and-get-the-word-out/
I use Tweetdeck and schedule them throughout the day.
When I get breaks, I have browse #freesaeed and #savesaeed on my Twitter app and retweet a lot of them.
I have actually followed and been followed by a lot of interesting people through this campaign. A lot of people with a lot of energy to help Pastor Saeed.
Camping. West coast
Crouch Sr. West coast
Smith Sr. West coast
Maybe the Southern Baptists could immortalize the futurists in their next installment of stained glass heroes.
As one who lived through the SBC takeover … I gaged a lot when I saw this article. I was SBC from June 1974 when I was baptized till July 2000 when my visit to the SBC annual meeting convinced me that I could no longer in conscience remain SBC. My last official day as a Baptist pastor was July 23, 2000. It was the greatest single release of stress in my life. It probably lengthened my life by years.
Most of those being immortalized by (strangely) black and white stained glass are men that I personally met or at least was engaged either in their ministry or in conflict with them. I remember the week I rejoiced at the election of Adrian Rogers election as president of the SBC and the day 15 years later that I stood in a meeting moderated by him and spoke against the public renunciation of my senior pastor.
The SBC controversy was when I learned that in religious wars victory means more than truth. It was when I learned that inerrancy was an ideal that meant more as a theory of scripture than as a way of treating other people. Let me be clearer. We were more concerned about how we spoke of the Bible than how we applied the Bible to one who disputed the theory.
For twenty years I heard more passionate preaching about the text than the Savior. I hate inerrancy most of all for missing the point. We redoubled our efforts and forgot our purpose. I cannot imagine the shame of being immortalized in that battle.
Upon further review black and white stained glass is perfect for that era. Portraying the champions of that controversy in gray is wonderfully ironic. Things are not quite what they seem.
Dread, why do you think Warren was put up there? Big donation, maybe?
Josh,
Warren was a complete non-player in the controversy but he is seen as a bridge to the next era. I just think he is too big to leave out and he is relevant today and not much in the SBC is relevant to the larger Christian community. There is also the very strong tie he has historically to WA Criswell. I recall a great affinity to the man and some direct history but the details elude me.
I note the following after effects of the controversy….
1. The SBC went into numerical decline after this battle and had to take its place among the denominations that they once stood over against.
2. The displaced ‘liberals’ incessantly predicted ongoing infighting would follow when the smoke of inerrancy cleared. That has proven true with the follow-up resurgence of Calvinism.
3. The young church planting SBC pastors all eschewed the name Baptist in their churches and opted for keeping their Baptist connection beyond the front door. They realized that being SBC was no longer inviting to the general pubic
Despite all of this I owe much to the SBC and do not regret my time among them.
I’m fascinated by the controversy period of the SBC. DId some of my Master’s work on it. I have read every book available, hundreds of articles, notes from the conventions of that decade, etc. With no emotional attachment it is just a terribly interesting historical period for a denomination. I can sort of see both sides in 3D, the good points and bad points, all that.
I always enjoy your take on the SBC controversy stuff, as you were a participant on the “other side”. My pastor was at Southeastern during the days of student demonstrations and being put on probation by the accrediting agencies. I love hearing about that stuff from him too, though he still finds it painful.
As to your points, they are true but I want to add a little here and there:
1. The SBC was already in decline. That was part of the reaction. The conservatives thought the liberals were causing the decline, and that if they won the battle, growth would return. They were wrong about that, as decline has been steady since the controversy has basically ended. My true opinion is that the SBC has just reached its saturation point. It stopped growing because nothing grows forever.
2. That’s true, and I’m guessing Baptists will be fighting forever. I’m not familiar with the operations of other large denominations, but I can’t imagine that they don’t all have big disagreements.
3. Again, true, but more of a cultural thing in general than a SBC thing, specifically. The vast majority of new church plants are not called by a denom name. Many have tried to not be called “church” at all. It’s not just the SBC that people find creepy…it’s anything related to Jesus.
But yeah, good thoughts. Always good to hear them.
Off topic, but the new ads on the side are a hoot, Michael. Here’s one that came up for me today:
“Phoenix Preacher
Cheap Prices and Huge Selection. Phoenix Preacher on Sale!”
So, you are available to the highest bidder, eh? And who knew you could get the Phoenix Preacher in your choice of color and size? I thought you were one-of-a-kind, but apparently there is a HUGE SELECTION. Hmmm…
Well, hopefully the ads will fine-tune as the weeks go by, but I must admit I was intrigued about buying my own Phoenix Preacher. I hope they put airholes in the box when they ship your clone out.
Josh,
I posted a long response but it is gone. Sorry
Some of my posts are gone too.
Read a Loose Ends, the blog had a problem last night apparently.