You may also like...

81 Responses

  1. Jackie Alnor says:

    Carman link is no good

  2. Jackie Alnor says:

    And might I add – “First”

  3. Thank God for Links. The other threads were driving me batty.

  4. Michael says:

    Carmen link fixed.

  5. Michael says:

    That’s Jackies first first.

  6. Andrew says:

    I first heard about Grave sucking at Strange Fire with John MaCarthur. There certainly is a lot of strange fire out there.

  7. covered says:

    Great links. I’m curious as to your take on the “whistleblower” piece. I know that it was a difficult time for you but your trial was used to start this work and this is good. I hear many people call Yancey a sell out but I have all of his books and he speaks well. I think people consider him to be like Peterson of another kind. Another person I have learned to appreciate.

  8. Michael says:


    It’s the single best article on the subject I’ve ever read.
    I’ve lived it for ten years and I’m seeing brave people in the Philippines live it for the first time.
    It’s hard to talk about or write about without getting emotional…because the church should be the last place truth and truth tellers are despised.
    But, they are.
    Yancey is a gem…

  9. covered says:

    Michael, will you consider adding the movie Noah to your next links? It seems to be taking a beating from the Christian critics.

  10. What’s the deal with Yancey? Is it in a link?

  11. Dude says:

    Grave sucking………america has become the breeding ground for the strange and the just plain weird.

  12. Michael says:


    Just added three to this list.

  13. covered says:

    Josh, look at “finding God in a tragedy”

  14. Thanks covered.

  15. RiBo says:

    Jackie, we may not agree philosophically/doctrinally, but someone claiming to be close to Jacob Prasch outlined how responsible he is with the money he collects and how much he helps people in a real tangible way with it and that he is open and accountable with regards to finances…if true, that’s very admirable and “good fruit” IMO.

  16. RiBo says:

    I don’t know how someone can claim to be doing “the work of Jesus!” and not be open about the finances. Can’t understand how many can use the Jesus-money for mostly themselves and their “ministry” lifestyle and not help people with the money collected in a real tangible way and then claim to be “of Jesus”

    We see it in all doctrinal Camps. There should be consensus on that issue, as well as not abusing children.

  17. Paige says:

    Grave sucking? Eeks….. people are nuts. geeze.

    Thank you for these timely links. I am currently reading ‘through the Bible” and have to admit that the OT is wiping me out. Hello, Question City. WTH/F???
    So, thank you for the link on the OT/NT subject which I emailed to myself and my peeps are are wondering what’s with this God who seems to love to kill animals for the sins of humans so sprinkling their blood and burning them up can be a ‘pleasing aroma”. sigh

    Phillip Yancy….wow. Bless God. What encouragement. I watched several other YouTube videos of his real human words. Amen. I don’t feel so alone.

    Great insight on the Least of God’s Holy People. Thank you…. more hope that God eventually resolves a lifetime of garbage.

  18. At lunch and only had time to read thegrave sucking article….that was far too bizarre.

  19. I wouldn’t get too carried away with the grave sucking article. When you google it, all you see is links to critical articles, so I don’t know how much of this is really going on with the looneys.

  20. Anne Kohut says:

    “….. boring in its predictability yet soul-stabbing in each particularity…” Great truth in that phrase that covers many elements of this earthly sojourn. Thank you, for the Whistleblower link, Michael. Speaks beautifully to plodding forward, not surrendering to the inherent weariness of well-doing.

  21. Andrew says:

    I think this is practiced by “Jesus culture” that I mentioned earlier. Believe it or not its becoming more common in the charismatic churches.

  22. I saw that same one Andrew.
    A) It is one video.
    B ) They don’t call it grave sucking.
    C) I remember seeing John Crowder and Todd BEntley going to gravesites and get the “anointing” a few years ago.

    I’m not saying it isn’t happening, and it is definitely stupid. Just don’t want to overreact to something that is probably very much fringe.

  23. Andrew says:

    Josh said “They don’t call it grave sucking.”

    What the heck do you think they are doing? Is it somehow more acceptable if you call it “mantle grabbing”? This is common among Bethel Church folks, Jesus culture, etc…

  24. Read the rest of my comment.

  25. Let me rephrase myself:

    Anytime you encounter someone grave-sucking, please tell them to stop.

    My bet is you never tell anyone to stop.

  26. Andrew says:

    fringe? Are you saying Bethel is on the fringe? I don’t think so. Jesus culture just performed at the Passion conference. I don’t think this is a fringe thing. I think its catching on and hence the concern.

  27. Read my # 25.

  28. Andrew says:

    Josh, I don’t go too the grave yard to often. Probably next time will be when I am 6 feet under.

  29. Also it shouldn’t be a big concern then. Its a few idiots doing something stupid. That’s all.

  30. Andrew says:

    I don’t don’t watch people shoot up heroin either. Doesn’t mean its not a concern of mine.
    I don’t observe a lot of things and the occult is one of them. Doesn’t mean it not a concern of mine.

    And I don’t think its just a few idiots. This is the kind of stuff (hyper charismania) that iHOP influences young people with. Perhaps you can tell rollingstone magazine that what is happening at ihop shouldn’t be their concern either.

  31. 1. The Tyler Deaton story isn’t about grave-sucking.

    2. Who said anything about IHOP? I thought you were worried about Bethel.

    3. Again, anyone who grave-sucks is an idiot. I’m sorry to tell you there just aren’t that many people doing it.

  32. erunner says:

    Josh, If I’m not mistaken IHOP and Bethel are connected. They are on the fringe but there’s a lot of disturbing things going on there which appears to be cultlike. Their music via Misty Edwards, Kim Walker, Chris Quilala, etc. draws many young people. Ignorant people are being sucked into this group and for them I am concerned.

  33. I’m pretty sure there is no formal connection, other than the New-Apostolic Reformation / Charismatic Renewal stuff.

    I know they are both full of false-prophet, false miracles, false manifestations…I wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot pole.

    My only point is that grave-sucking doesn’t seem to be a widespread phenomenon, even among those idiots.

  34. PP Vet says:

    Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.

    The stuff that happens in the Bible is so much weirder than the stuff you Pharisees cluck your tongues over.

    You remind of the lady who said that if Jesus saw some of the stuff happening in the church today, he’d roll over in his grave.

    Yes, most weird stuff is just weird stuff.

    But some weird stuff is God stuff!

    If you just instinctively reject everything that seems weird to you, you may be, in some cases, opposing something good in its infancy.

  35. “Who said anything about IHOP?”

    I want Pancakes! πŸ™‚

  36. PP Vet – just remember to wipe off any bird poo before you suck your next tombstone.

  37. Didn’t Elijah eat his own poop? I haven’t seen the Bethel types reenact that one.

    They better read carefully, as I realized my mistake – he used his poop to cook his dinner.

  38. Alan Hawkins says:


    Should I defend grave sucking? NO
    Should I explain it? NO
    Should I comment on it? Probably NOT
    Is it being accurately depicted? Not Really
    Is it what it seems to be? NO
    How should one assess the matter? Don’t let the critics of a thing be the only voice.
    In Biblical language “don’t decide a matter before you hear it.
    Hearing the critics of it is really hearing a caricature.
    Will you be convinced when you do hear about it? NO

    Why did I bother? Well the Bethel people are my friends.

    Gotta go… catch a flight to Geneva.

    Dread Sucker

  39. Dread hangs out with losers .

  40. Xenia says:

    This grave-sucking thing seems to be a Pentecostal take (in their own unique way) of venerating the relics of Saints.

  41. Nonnie says:

    I may not agree with some of Dread’s friends, but I certainly do respect Dread. If I needed a friend, Dread would be a faithful friend to have.

  42. filbertz says:

    I lived next to a cemetery for the first 20 years of my life, and no, it didn’t suck. πŸ˜‰

  43. filbertz says:

    though to take what is clearly odd in scripture and attempt to make it normative is…well, odd.


  44. Steve Wright says:

    How should one assess the matter? Don’t let the critics of a thing be the only voice.
    Hearing the critics of it is really hearing a caricature.
    Will you be convinced when you do hear about it? NO
    Lots that those words could be applied to… πŸ˜‰

  45. I was joking about Dread’s friends. Dread is a great guy. Nothing but respect for him.

  46. filbertz says:

    the “flying fish” is a well-known issue in law enforcement, as is the accompanying denials of wrong-doing.


  47. filbertz says:

    I think “Evan Almighty” will likely be closer to the biblical story… πŸ˜‰


  48. “flying fish”

    You’ve outkicked your coverage here, fil. What is this about?

  49. Paige says:

    Finally read the article on Whistle Blowers. Wow….. gave me flashbacks. Great article. Been there, done that. Thank you.

  50. Call me a heretic but I think I will get the spiritual power, and anointing I need from the Holy Spirit and not Casper the Ghost.

  51. MLD, I don’t think you can condemn sucking a tombstone until you’ve actually tried it.

  52. “flying fish” ahh the Christian Drivers article. Got it.

  53. MLD, you might enjoy this, then… a satire of taking too many lessons from OT stories:

  54. Is it coincidence or is it prophetic that all of this grave sucking is being promoted at the same time that The Undertaker is returning.

    Is Bethel a front for the WWE?

  55. thanks synapsesoffish – that was LOL

  56. What about the snake handling? Do I have to wait and hear every side of that too?

    Why can’t I just come right out and call stupid things stupid?

  57. MLD – glad you liked it… he’s a confessional Lutheran, and while I’m not (I’m reformed) I like his unrelenting focus on the gospel – never assumed, always proclaimed… a bit too much of a narrow critic at times, but he’s been helpful for me πŸ™‚

  58. synapsesoffish,
    I know Chris personally from his time here in SoCal – we went to the same church together in our pre Lutheran days.

  59. All of these guys who are into this nutty stuff – and I am not one bit shy to say they are nuts – all refer to acts in the OT. Even if they were legit back then, they are not now.

    “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world”

    So at best, God worked through Elijah’s poop in the OT – but not today. He works through Jesus Christ. For some of these characters, this will be tough to swallow.

  60. Kevin H says:

    Josh, just try not to do too much of the snake handling yourself or else somebody might be trying to suck your grave. That’s the only side you need to hear. πŸ™‚

  61. james says:

    Sad that the Grave Sucker’s god is so small that his plans are stopped when people die.

  62. Hmmm…grave sucking snakes. I think I see a cheesy SyFy B movie in that.

  63. filbertz says:

    wow. That Jesus actor sure looks Jewish. I can see how they strive for authenticity. πŸ˜‰

    nice to see Carmen’s cancer was kind enough to remit itself in time for his victory tour. who’s opening for him, Mike Warnke?

  64. Michael says:

    Fil…that wasn’t nice.
    But very funny. πŸ™‚

  65. Alan Hawkins says:

    Anyone but me think Viola had some market-driven reasons for leaving the church? He has parlayed his critique of church into quite an industry.

  66. Michael says:


    You think? πŸ™‚
    Are you really going to Geneva?

  67. Josh Hamrick says:

    If I drop dead y’all keep Kevin away from my grave. πŸ™‚

  68. Alan Hawkins says:

    I don’t know Michael but if I do I plan on imbibing everything. I will suck the marrow out of that life experience, graves and stones.

  69. Kevin H says:

    Don’t worry Josh, I don’t get to North Carolina very often.

  70. Does anyone know the best available critique of Viola on Pagan Christianity? The man’s writings are creeping into my house and creating questions.

  71. RiBo says:

    “Anyone but me think Viola had some market-driven reasons for leaving the church? He has parlayed his critique of church into quite an industry.”

    No more an “industry” than all the professional pastors on here.

  72. Thanks for the link Michael, I am hoping for some others as well. I see Viola interacted with him. And RiBo, I have always been in it for the money as you know.

  73. RiBo says:

    Well, you do have a nice casa πŸ˜‰

  74. RiBo says:

    If the pastor thing doesn’t work out, you can always be Jeff Bridges stunt double. You won’t make as much, but you’d get to hang out with the “Dude” πŸ™‚

  75. Ryan Ashton says:

    The house church I was involved in (which later excommunicated me for being concerned about them teaching Hyper Grace) is following the Viola-Organic Christianity stream.

    While Viola has some good points, I’ve been concerned for awhile.

    Please be praying for my friends.

    Viola’s co-worker Milt Rodriguez and his wife are moving to Redlands to “establish” that church, and I’m presently praying on some way of reaching out to Milt and putting a stop to the madness (the leader is 27, of a church or 25, all under the age of thirty).

    On another note, I deactivated my Facebook for awhile to focus on healing from that aforementioned situation. I still love you all and miss you more.


  76. Blessing to you Ryan. Glad you are free

  77. Nonnie says:

    Praying for you Ryan. You are loved. Did you read the whistle blower article that was linked?

  78. Frosted Flake says:

    I just don’t know how anyone does anything for the Kingdom without your blessing and approval. You are truly one of the great “Watchmen” on the wall of the playground.

  79. RiBo says:

    Flake, no one needs my approval, I just share my opinion like everyone else and I try to point out contradiction when I see it and appeal to facts, data etc.

    I’m always fascinated by the reactions that interjecting some truth and contrary opinion to the status quo invokes.

  80. Ryan Ashton says:

    Nonnie: I read it a day before it was linked here, actually. I’m quite moved, and want to make sure I do the right thing here on out.

    Thanks, Alan!

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

Discover more from Phoenix Preacher

Subscribe now to keep reading and get access to the full archive.

Continue reading