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35 Responses

  1. crownedone1 says:

    “If you’re in California there is a pre wrath conference coming your way…”

    If I directly asked for millions of dollars to help the needy, I do not think I would acquire the funds. But penning a pre-wrath novel just might work…you can make a lot of cash by itching a few ears (And I don’t even believe in pre-wrath, but I know how to biblically support it).

    “Doubting on your part does not constitute a crisis of faith on mine.”

    I agree. Nor does science (which is ever changing) “prove” faith invalid. Nor does God fit inside our ‘logic box’ we have created for Him.

  2. Michael says:

    Just for clarification, I do hold to the pre wrath position and believe that Alan Kurshner is the best advocate for it.
    If this is an area of interest for you, I commend this conference to you.

  3. Ricky Bobby says:

    Michael, why is the issue even important? To what end? Seems like a big waste of time, energy and money and much ado about nothing. If the position is correct, what does it matter?

  4. Ixtlan says:

    I read the post of the HBC elder’s letter of resignation. What capped the situation for me was the first comment that quoted this passage:

    “And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.”
    Mark 10:42-44 ESV

    I have yet to see this calling of Christians modeled by many of these celebrity type of pastors. When Jesus said, “do not be like the Gentiles”, He is saying in essence, don’t be like the unbelievers. We need to weigh His words here carefully. What are the parameters of being a slave? How should that look in our own lives and in the lives of church leadership?

    Many of these celebrities have joint ventures of “ministry” that they do together through out the year. The conference circuit is a primary example. I have to wonder whether their regular interaction with each other has a way of propagating what appears to be a “Gentile infection” within the body of Christ?

  5. Michael says:


    I confess that it doesn’t concern me as much as it used to and the bigger picture presented by someone like N.T. Wright is more important to how I think about eschatology.
    Having said that…
    If we are living in the end times those who expect to be raptured before the stuff hits the fan are going to be shattered when it doesn’t happen.
    That’s one issue.
    The secondary issue is that the hermeneutic used to contract the pretrib doctrine by some leads to what I believe are other errors in interpretation…for example, around the concept of the last “apostasy”.
    I find the prewrath doctrine to be as clear as a bell in scripture…if I didn’t I would be amill.

  6. Michael says:


    That couldn’t have been said any better.
    A long time reader just noted to me that many of these celebrities with mega churches and multi sites practice the “Moses model” in reality even if they don’t confess it doctrinally.

  7. Ricky Bobby says:

    OK, good points.

  8. Jim says:

    I guess that’s why I’m amill. I have zero clarity regarding this issue, and I’m ok with that.

    Paul lived in the last days, and we do as well. Maybe the partial preterists are partially correct.

  9. Michael says:


    There’s one other thing and maybe it’s the most important.
    I have a full on love affair with the Scriptures…the more I study the more I see of God and the more I see of God the more I love Him.
    Whether or not the planet is in the last days, I know I am in mine…and I want to know Him and trust Him and hang on to the promises He has given.
    For me, that often means challenging my presuppositions and traditions…and the first one I had the guts to challenge in my own life was the doctrine of the Rapture.
    It was through taking that challenge that I learned to question everything and not to fear what I would find.
    It was through taking that challenge that I gained the courage to read anything that the tradition I belonged to told me not to.
    It was through taking that challenge that I discovered that no one tradition was big enough to hold all the knowledge of God and that there was value in all the different sects that make up the Body of Christ.
    So, for me, this is as much a symbol of breaking traditional bondage as it is about the end times.
    I hope that made sense…

  10. Ricky Bobby says:

    “For me, that often means challenging my presuppositions and traditions”

    I’m with you on that one and I love God, too. I just see things way differently than ever before.

  11. Ricky Bobby says:

    I’m in love with God, not necessarily what we call the bible and especially not what is in actuality ‘the bible’ which are different man Group’s interpretations of the bible and what they tell us it all means and says.

  12. Tim says:

    That last link looks intriguing, but it appears to be broken. Can you post the http address?

  13. Tim says:

    Thank you!

  14. Muff Potter says:

    RE: pre-wrath & eschatology,

    Isn’t this pretty much the same old end-times stuff flogged to death again? I’ll give Kurshner one thing though, the guy’s got guts to try and mine some played out veins and make buck on them too!

  15. Michael says:


    Alan has been writing on the topic for a long time…I don’t see him as a profiteer at all.
    Scholars need to eat too…

  16. It’s impossible for us Amilers to put on a conference… don’t even have enough activity to fill out a brochure.

    You would have an opening prayer
    The presentation; Jesus returns – judges the folks, dispatches them to heaven or hell – The End.
    A closing prayer followed by “the bar is open!! 🙂

  17. Ricky Bobby says:

    “A closing prayer followed by “the bar is open!!”

    Sold! I think I’m an Amiller! 🙂

  18. Andrew says:

    There maybe a slight difference between “Moses Model” and “Druckerite” model. I clearly put McDonald into the the Druckerite category although the results are probably the same.

  19. Josh Hamrick says:

    “Jesus returns – judges the folks, dispatches them to heaven or hell – The End.”

    So pretty much, amil are folks who just don’t know what’s gonna happen? I’m in.

  20. “Jesus returns – judges the folks, dispatches them to heaven or hell – The End.”

    A paraphrase of Jesus in Matt 25 when he tells us the whole end times story.

    And being a wine drinker, he may have even finished that text by saying “the bar is open!!”

  21. Steve Wright says:

    As to “the sin of divorce” – the first point, glaringly absent from that article, is that divorce is most definitely NOT a sin on some occasions. God used divorce to describe His actions towards His people in the Old Testament, and God would not associate Himself with something that is 100% sinful activity.

    What I have seen, in the divorces most recently witnessed, is one partner committing adultery and bailing out on the marriage. I’m sure if I thought hard enough, I could think of a couple examples where the church looks like the world and divorces over “irreconcilable differences” but the ones that leap to my mind all involved an unfaithful spouse. And indeed, sadly there are many.

    My point is that without recognizing the allowance for divorce for the innocent spouse, we run the great risk of making divorce a scarlet letter – with no interest in finding out the details and circumstances.

    Christians who love the Lord and have a spouse that is an adulterer or adulteress already are knocked down hard – the church needs to be there for such people and knock them out for the count.

    Adultery – THAT is the 100% always sin – a sin made more prevalent with pornography, drug and alcohol abuse, abortion (if any “surprises” happen), and homosexual experimentation encouragement.

    And thankfully, even with a 100% always sin – there is still the 100% opportunity for forgiveness at the cross.

  22. Steve Wright says:

    the church needs to be there for such people and knock them out for the count.
    There should be a “not” inserted there…..NOT knock them out for the count

    (insert blushing smiley face)

  23. Muff Potter says:

    Michael @ # 16,
    My bad. Being a good scholar is not the same thing as being a big name ‘prophecy pimp’. Good men of letters need victuals too, you’re so very right.

  24. Actually as an avid amiller I have tons to say that is relevant to life NOW. Tons to say about what the believer can expect, what the witness will experience, what the progress of time and history will look like, how we can overcome and why we should be optimists not pessimists.

  25. I wouldn’t mind hearing AK but glancing at the conference makes me think it is not a lot new. No matter new doesn’t mean true.

  26. Michael says:


    It’s the same position I’ve espoused over the years here.
    The one difference would be that I believe that we need to hold some of the claims of the amill camp in tension with this pre mill position.

  27. I’m all for making peace…

  28. Ricky Bobby says:

    Well, I guess it’s no more a waste of time than any other speculations about any number of debatable issues in the bible. I do see the value in it if it convinces some of the Apostasy Wonks to tone down the Apostasy stuff…though that stuff really doesn’t matter either and is pretty harmless.

  29. Michael says:

    The return of Christ is one of the cardinal doctrines of the faith…and it is no waste to study it.

  30. Ricky Bobby says:

    “and it is no waste to study it.”

    The Apostasy Wonks spend all their time studying it 🙂

  31. The Trueman link was gold again!
    It is so refreshing to read such an intelligent man that is able to break it all down so well.

    I am with Josh on #20.

  32. Michael says:


    I love Trueman…obviously.
    I commend his books to you as well.

  33. I have The Wages of Spin on my kindle.
    If I can ever finish the fiction book I am on, I am going to read Jared Wilson’s “Gospel Wakefulness” and then “Wages of Spin”

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