Loose Ends

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69 Responses

  1. I don’t know Matt Chandler from the man in the moon, but… he is a Mega church pastor, has multi site campuses and was Mark Driscoll’s hand pick successor (all according to the article)

    So why is this a good thing?

    If we are to believe he wants to take Acts 29 (which I have never quite understood what that is all about) to the ends of the earth – I would like to see the first 100 be outside the US. Otherwise they are just another sheep stealing operation.

    Oh, good morning all 🙂

  2. dswoager says:

    The protestant non-denominational pseudo-pope is dead! Long live the protestant non-denominational pseudo-pope!

  3. Michael says:

    MLD,

    I agree.

  4. Mike DeLong says:

    Caner should have prepared for the worst when he drew Norman Moon.

  5. Caner must be a big Baptist thing, because no matter how good his story, he would never be allowed in a Lutheran pulpit.

  6. Bob says:

    MLD:

    The point isn’t that Chandler is now in charge, for all we know he could just be another tyrant or such. The point is people are distancing themselves from Mark Driscoll.

    Now your question should be, “Why is distancing oneself from Mark Driscoll a good thing?”

  7. I the hotel / motel franchising business it works this way. Somwhere, the is Joe’s Motel. The franchise guy from Best Western calls Joe and says “Would you like to become a Best Western motel – you get our marks and our 800# for reservations – are you in?”

    Is this how Acts 29 operates – an existing church decides it wants to be an Acts 29 so the are no 1st Church of pastor Joe dba Acts 29.

  8. I think I need a new keyboard… or new fingers.
    “an existing church decides it wants to be an Acts 29 so the are no 1st Church of pastor Joe dba Acts 29.” SHOULD read

    an existing church decides it wants to be an Acts 29 so the are NOW … 1st Church of pastor Joe dba Acts 29.

  9. EricL says:

    Keep up the excellent reporting, Michael. The Sovereign Grace story is an awful tale of abuse. I hope the leaders who enabled this child abuser will all be forced out of their dark corners and get exposed for their heinous actions. I hope they get prison time.

    As for Caner, I can’t believe that the Southern Baptists still covers for that liar, even employing him to lead one of their Georgia colleges. I guess as long as you are a dynamic speaker, all sins and crimes are ignored.

  10. Bob,
    Driscoll has been out of Ats 29 since 2012.

  11. Bob says:

    MLD:

    You said they were in the “sheep stealing business.”

    During the ministry of Jesus He said this, “I was sent to only the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Matt 15:24

    So does this mean:

    Some of the sheep of the house of Israel weren’t lost?
    The rest of the world (not from the house of Israel) are lost and without hope?
    Or does it mean He came to steal sheep away from the false teachers of Israel, so how can Chandler steal sheep from a group which isn’t Israel (I know quite a reach, but your comment brought to mind Jesus’ comment to the Canaanite woman)?

    Boy these scriptures can be confusing sometimes….

    OK double down time
    😉 🙂

  12. Mike DeLong says:

    Does anyone know who represented Caner?

  13. Nonnie says:

    Eric just spoke for me.

  14. Steve Wright says:

    Sincere question, because the Acts 29 thing is quite a lot different than the CC thing (though there are similarities too)

    Did I read that Acts 29 has staff of five people? And office space?

    Who funds it? Do member churches pay dues?

  15. Michael says:

    Thank you, EricL.
    Mike, the actual court docs are available at that link.

  16. Bob,
    They call themselves ‘missional’ – but their only mission is to get churched christians to change brands, attend their church and fill their coffers.

    I didn’t say they were bad … Chevy wants to steal Ford customers also.

  17. Michael says:

    Steve,

    I think I read that they take 1% off the top from local affiliates.

  18. Mike DeLong says:

    Yes the documents don’t say. There’s a reference to a Mr Gibbs, but it isn’t clear who that is.

  19. Michael says:

    I just want to say a word about my friend and brother in blogging, Jim.

    He did heavy lifting on SGM for years and paid the price.

    This victory and all the victories that follow had the ground plowed by him.

  20. Nonnie says:

    Yea. MLD is speaking for me too.

  21. Michael says:

    Mike,

    David C. Gibbs

  22. Bob says:

    MLD:

    I’m just kidding a bit with you.

    To me the more churches we have the better, unless we go to war with each other.

    Personally I gag a bit when I see these new churches come up with trendy slogans to differentiate themselves from their fathers Buick.

  23. Nonnie says:

    Yea! Jim !

  24. Michael says:

    Nonnie,

    Bloggers have a bit of cache and respect now…and there’s more of us doing this sort of work.
    When Jim and I started it was neither respected or applauded by most and we spent a lot of time getting the holy crap kicked out of us.
    Jim was one the best and godliest of us all and today he is vindicated.
    His work was not in vain.

  25. Mike DeLong says:

    Yeah I am wondering if perhaps Caner got his legal bills paid for by a non-profit that solicits charitable contributions.

  26. Michael says:

    Mike,

    That would be an interesting piece of information…

  27. Andrew says:

    Isn’t Caner still on staff with Veritas Evangelical Seminary? I think many CCs still host Veritas conferences but maybe that will stop with this new info.

  28. Mike DeLong says:

    It’s a funny coincidence that there’s a David C. Gibbs here:

    http://www.christianlaw.org/cla/index.php/who-we-are/

    And another one here:

    http://www.ncll.org/about/david-gibbs-iii-president

    but you know the world is fairly awash in lawyers and David Gibbs is kind of a common name.

  29. Nonnie says:

    I’m ashamed that CC’s would continue to have anything to do with Caner.

  30. Andrew says:

    Well in all fairness to CCs its probably because Norman Geisler has vouched for Caner that he still gets a legitimate forum to teach.

  31. Michael says:

    Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa proves the offices for Veritas Seminary in the Logos Building.
    Norm Geisler should be ashamed.
    He’s not.

  32. brian says:

    I love to hear Caner when he breaks out into his Arabic speak. He could always hit the Bob Lar$on carnival circuit at an airport Motel near you.

  33. Papias says:

    “The First Amendment’s protections, advanced by the fair use defense, have never applied to some bizarre oligarchy of ‘qualified’ speakers.” – The Judge in the Caner lawsuit.

    Caner got mad cause some bloggers spoke bad about him, and the best offense he could come up with was “They aren’t qualified to talk about me?” Did I read that right?

    Kudos to bloggers everywhere who speak the truth in love. May tribes increase!

  34. Steve Wright says:

    MIchael, I see no encouragement that attorney fees will be paid. Rather more of the same that makes our American legal system so clogged and unproductive. The judge could have ruled on them now, especially since he seems to really take Caner to the woodshed in a couple places.

    Instead, we have “full employment for attorneys” once more rearing its head in the good ol’ USA. “Have your attorney file a motion, have your attorney respond….etc. etc.”

  35. Andrew says:

    I suspect that one of the David Gibbs mentioned in post 29 was probably the “Christian” attorney that was paid. I think these Christian attorneys should think twice before taking these kind of cases. All it seems to do is divide Christians even more.

  36. Caner is the result of evangelical revivalism, an error in itself, where everyone out there is running around giving their “testimony” – eventually everyone lies and expands their stories.

    Why do evangelical give “testimonies” – to what purpose?

  37. “The prophetic voice to the church has moved online and away from the machines…”

    Two word caveat: Discernment Ministries.

  38. Michael says:

    BD,

    Interestingly enough, the discernment ministries seem to have seen better days.
    They seem to have less and less of a voice or internet presence.

  39. Michael says:

    MLD,

    In my former church we gave them to brag about how bad we were.
    I had to reserve a month of Sundays to finish mine… 🙂

  40. Steve Wright says:

    Anyone who blogs needs to have a homeowners insurance policy (even renters) and that homeowners policy needs to be endorsed to include personal injury liability – because the standard homeowners policy only covers bodily injury and property damage.

    Having said that, there is no guarantee the policy will cover you for libel. There may be an exclusion for internet activities. Also, the insurance company will definitely look to exclude under a “business pursuit” exclusion – and they have a fairly strong argument if the blog sells ads and receives donations.

    I think the blogger has a strong case that a blog is not a business unless there is an expectation of profit eventually. Otherwise it is a money-losing hobby and should be covered.

    However, if one is being sued for libel or copyright infringement or personal privacy violations etc , the last thing one needs is a second suit with the insurance company to see if they will defend the blogger in the first suit.

    Best thing – go in writing with your insurance agent, and ask for some confirmation in writing back. Then make sure do it again if you ever switch companies (even if keeping the same agent)

  41. Michael says:

    Steve,

    That looks like a procedural issue…I hope.

  42. Steve Wright says:

    Funny that one of the most well known and influential testimonies happens to be that of a Mr. Martin Luther 🙂

  43. Andrew says:

    I noticed that all testimonies always appeared as before Christ compared to after Christ. Since I became a Christian at young age, I wasn’t capable of some of the sins I am now aware of as an adult. I seemed to sin more after Christ which threw a monkey wrench in this idea of giving a testimony. That is just my experience.

  44. Johnston Berkley says:

    Some well deserved chest thumping fellow blogger…

  45. Michael,

    That would mean the process works … Free speech is a great thing and people get tangled in their own web.

  46. Johnston Berkley says:

    “It riles them to believe we perceive the webs they weave.”

    Moody Blues line

  47. Michael says:

    Steve,

    True insurance for bloggers is a bit more complicated to get than that, though the process you described is the base to get it.
    It’s very expensive and if you do run ads or get donations you’re toast.
    The best defense is truth and lawyers who will represent you because they care about constitutional rights.

  48. Michael says:

    JB,

    Where do you blog?

  49. Q says:

    I think this is a rather odd way to describe a pastor –

    “Chandler is entrancing if demanding to hang with”

    Rather magical.

  50. Steve Wright says:

    Michael, I understand – the goal and hope is to establish a “duty to defend” relationship.

    If you can find pro bono lawyers who care for Constitutional rights…then great.

    It’s sort of like Directors and Officers Insurance or some other specialty line, it is ludicrous to go out and try to secure something solo for a limited exposure. There are better ways.

    As far as ads etc. I still think you would find the expectation of profit to be the key – not ads per se. Some blogs do make a lot of money of course. And there is no doubt they are a business pursuit.

    A childhood lemonade stand is not a business, even though it will take in some money.

  51. Steve Wright says:

    I would add though, there are downsides to having insurance coverage. The most obvious is they will only care about what is financially expeditious, Thus they will settle quickly with the guy suing you if they can make sense of doing so from a pure dollars and cents motive.

    You may be able to oppose the settlement, but only if you cut them out and go solo from there on with your own defense, which puts you back to square one.

  52. Michael says:

    I carried it briefly, but couldn’t afford it.
    Now, I have nothing, so if they sue me they get a bunch of J.I. Packer books and an extremely cranky cat.

  53. dswoager says:

    Andrew, as far as testimonies go the guys I meet with regularly are both “early believers”, and as I am was not it’s a topic that has come up a few times. I think one of the healthy things with that early belief is that you don’t get caught up in your testimony as before and after, but realize that a real testimony is how God has and is currently working in your life. A lot of people can get caught up in their slavation experience as their testimony, it can sound like an AA meeting, if you don’t have that I would have to assume it is easier not to fall into that trap.

  54. Andrew says:

    dswoager,, you are correct that its easier not to fall into the trap but makes it harder to relate to these guys that have the before/after testimony. Its like the before after weight loss pictures that are ubiquitous on TV and internet.. My weight fluctuates too easily to have this kind of testimony but I do have a testimony that won’t be complete until I pass away and with God there every step of the way.

  55. Headless Unicorn Guy says:

    “I love to hear Caner when he breaks out into his Arabic speak. He could always hit the Bob Lar$on carnival circuit at an airport Motel near you.” — Brian

    I’ve always wondered how good an acting job Caner did with his pseudo-Arabic, whether he was able to give a good approximation of the sound and flow of the actual language. Like what happens when an actor has to fake a language onstage; there they usually attempt to match the sounds, phonemes, and rhythm to give a convincing performance.

    Of course, no matter how good you’re faking a language, all it takes is ONE guy who actually speaks the language you’re trying to fake to expose you. And that’s how it first happened for Caner — a Muslim foreign student whose native language was Arabic was the one who blew the whistle.

  56. Steve Wright says:

    Michael, I would pull my hair out when my insurance carriers would settle baseless litigation for a few thousand bucks to make it go away.

    1) I was the one who had to explain to the client who was likely far more angry.

    2) It cost me money out of my pocket eventually as it made my loss ratios go up

    But at the end of the day, it wasn’t my money on the line and you can’t blame an insurance company for paying 10,000 to make something disappear, rather than 50,000 to fight in court only to face a more than 50% chance the legal decision would go against them and then they would STILL be on the hook for big money.

  57. I just watched the service at CCFL where they announce Doug Sauder as the new lead pastor. They did a very good job.

    http://media.calvaryftl.org/player/index.cfm?fn=D3106

    Now, during the concert parts, they had the house lights off – I am sure i saw a dozen people holding up their lighters. 🙂

  58. Julie Anne says:

    Be careful with the David Gibbs name. Lourdes Torres-Manteufel is suing Doug Phillips of the now defunct ministry, Vision Forum Ministries, and the attorney representing her is David C. Gibbs III. His father, David Gibbs is also an attorney and they do not see eye to eye on everything. It has made for a lot of confusion trying to put pieces together on various cases.

  59. EricL says:

    Nate Morales has been found guilty. Read it in the comments at Wartburg Watch:
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/05/14/mahaney-has-no-clothes-guest-post-by-todd-wilhelm/

    Here’s a report from the local news station giving a synopsis of the case.
    http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/05/nathaniel-morales-of-covenant-life-church-convicted-of-sexually-abusing-young-boys-103175.html

  60. EricL says:

    Sorry, posted #60 before I saw that Michael updated the article at the top of the page. I should have known he would be on top of things. 🙂

  61. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    The transition from Driscoll to Chandler seemed spur of the moment and ad hoc at the time because it was in February 2012 Driscoll was writing to the effect that he’d been asked to resume presidency of Acts 29, wasn’t it?

  62. Ricky Bobby says:

    “Three machines of American evangelicalism are slowly being exposed and dealt with.

    All the heavy lifting was done by bloggers.

    The mainstream Christian press relies on the machines money to survive and has sold their soul for it…they won’t report on these matters until after the fact and the cash dries up.

    The prophetic voice to the church has moved online and away from the machines….”

    Well put and I agree.

  63. Ricky Bobby says:

    Hey, told you it all makes a difference and you just need to keep pushing and pushing and never give up 😉

    Lots of stuff is happening. Just b/c Skip rebounded doesn’t mean anything.

  64. Ricky Bobby says:

    I’d be embarrassed if I were a Calvary Chapel “associate” and “affiliate” with Calvary Chapel’s embracing of two of the biggest frauds in Christian evangelicalism: Ergun Caner and TBN.

    Steve Wright, how do you stomach those close associations? I’d run bro.

  65. Ricky Bobby says:

    Glad to see the sex abuse guilty verdict in the SGM case.

    Hopefully the justice system renders some justice there and hopefully the civil attorneys tear SGM a new one so they solidly learn some lessons…and “so that others stand in fear” as the bible states in 1 Tim. 5:19-22…since the “church” doesn’t do that sort of thing on its own.

    I think the winds are blowing stronger and stronger…and a tipping point is being reached. Might be some more stuff coming down this coming year with regards to one of the “machines”….

  66. Brian says:

    You know, I wonder if they had just picked up the phone, called the cops, child protective services etc. Helped the victim and made sure all evidence for and against are put forward. If the accused is not guilty they should be restored, though this could be difficult. Its not easy. Just imagine the pain that could have been avoided.

    RB “Ergun Caner and TBN.” Different levels in the corporation, Mr. Caner is not in top management and do to some “irregularities” with his product (testimony) he had to move to a regional position. TBN, now they are the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Which does not hold a candle to the 10000000000 lb gorilla standing over the house the room with the 800 lb gorilla is standing in, the RCC. I dont count the RCC a fraud but they do have some rather unique well nevermind.

    You know RB for what its worth and it is just my opinion Pastor Steve is working in a flawed system I think he does what he can in his part of the industry, and that is not an insult Steve, just an analogy that I think fits in a way to all systems. But one weak link that is really being exposed in all this is that in an all encompassing worldview that is predicated on absolutes, it is somewhat impervious to change.

  67. Brian says:

    “Of course, no matter how good you’re faking a language, all it takes is ONE guy who actually speaks the language you’re trying to fake to expose you. And that’s how it first happened for Caner — a Muslim foreign student whose native language was Arabic was the one who blew the whistle.” HUG

    No no it was a global conspiracy of radical Muslims and Hyper Calvinists. As for the acting, he is really good, he is a very good speaker and I think just fell into his own hype, just my opinion. Then when you have way to much skin in the game its hard to back out. The lawsuit is not good, that does truly hurt people, what was done to those Marines, was awful those soldiers deserved better.

  68. Jim says:

    “I just want to say a word about my friend and brother in blogging, Jim.”

    Thanks Michael. To quote the heroic Jeremy Cook, “it’s not about revenge, it’s not even necessarily about justice, it’s about preventing him from ever harming anyone else again”.

    I’ve always been a short guy looking for a big bully to punch in the face. In the school yards, it gave courage to others. I’m hoping my blogging days did the same.

    My prayer now is that the abused will gain courage from the Jeremy Cook’s among us.

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