Loose Ends

bob1 says:

Gotta love that a lot of fundies and evangelicals have suddenly, with covid and the desire to politicize gathering in person, have become high church advocates…as in, “Oh, we MUST meet at a church…the church is sacred…it’s not church if you don’t meet in a church building.”

Etc.

bob1 says:

Have you ever tried to find Jesus at an Episcopalian or ELCA church?

You really are an idiot wrapped in a moron, aren’t you?

And then we wonder why we can’t have civilized discussions here…

Nathan Priddis says:

The religious freedom lawsuits have conclusively proven one thing for the litigants, it’s a religion, not a relationship

Jean says:

Michael and Duane,

Tell me if I am reading Dreher’s point correctly. I will use this as an example: “But it profits a church nothing to gain all the political power in the world, but lose the next generation to Christ.”

What I hear him saying is that the most important work of the church (the work that has been neglected) is to pass the faith down to the next generation. That would be by Christian families in the home and by Sunday School and other catechesis of young people in church. Overall, these activities would be backed up by orthodox faith and practice in the church.

In the LCMS, the complaint I hear from pastors, which I have witnessed in my own congregation, is that parents are typically diligent about getting their children confirmed, but then attendance drops off significantly not only for the confirmed children but for the parents as well. It’s as though the family has checked a box and is now moving on. So I can find common ground with Dreher, if I’m reading him right.

Not using my example, but I this what Dreher is observing, that the church is not emphasizing the fundamental responsibility of passing the faith down and instead is focusing on moralizing society through political influence?

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

My concern with Dreher’s article is that he thinks those he labels conservative Christians cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. I would say that you can if you pay attention – and many do. I am a conservative Christian and I hung on t my kids.

But there is a cultural change out there that has nothing to do with this – the devil is fighting hard and it affect all, conservative, liberal or just unaware Christians the same. Sunday soccer doesn’t care about your political affiliation – it just wants you and your kids to forsake your church attendance — just for the season — no harm no foul – so says Satan.

Also, about kids and families who fade away after confirmation – very similar to what happens with Jewish kids and their families once the bar mitzvah takes place — gone in 60 seconds.

This is not about political affiliation — it is the same tool the devil uses with parents who work too much and idolize their jobs.

Em says:

JimmieT, elderly? Don’t think it is chronological…. Some are elderly at 65 and some are waaay past 80 before it hits.
IMHO. 😊

WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

Duane, members of the Frankfurt school (like Adorno) staked out a parallel argument that the nuclear family was one of the potential bulwarks against the deleterious influence of monopoly capitalism. The degree to which the Christian right unknowingly (probably) takes up arguments against cultural assimilative processes that were earlier formulated by Marxist-Leninists is almost ironic. On those issues, now, Adorno is considered too elitist and patriarchal by contemporary egalitarian critical theorists.

What I’ve found interesting reading Adorno in the last six years is he regarded the New Left as essentially fascist in means and ends.

Aside from the kinds of misunderstandings that happen when monergists read synergists Dreher’s larger point might map onto a claim made by Walter McDougall in some of his more recent books that Americans are more versed in civic religious impulses than traditional Christian impulses across the political spectrum. I’m getting old enough to see that many a confident parent from the Mars Hill years did everything right so far as they could tell but the kids aren’t staying in the faith and are switching political sides. Since I’ve tried to shift back and forth in my reading in the last twenty years across the spectrum spanning from Marxists through the American Conservative and former Weekly Standard I’m not particularly shocked if people change their political views while retaining religious beliefs. It happens. An undercurrent I’ve picked up from Dreher is that he seems to tacitly believe that if “we” raise “them” properly they won’t shift either the faith team OR the politics team and there’s never any assurance of that. I’ve been friends who are as conservative as can be on doctrinal issues who are very progressive on politics and policy. Conversely, I can think of a case where a guy is moderately conservative who has parents who think he’s a flaming liberal disappointment because he’s not in the “Nixon didn’t do anything wrong” category of conservative. 🙂

I would venture MLD is “partly” wrong in saying it’s not about politics because it is, if we keep in mind that civic religious impulses are both political and religious. False christs come in many forms and some of the more popular ones in the U.S. are the versions of Jesus that underwrite the kind of U.S. people want to live in, whether blue or red.

filbertz says:

Faith of the parent(s) is not nepotistic. Our kids can certainly be influenced by the environment and example a parent of faith provides, but isn’t coming to faith in Christ a personal matter–something quite different than passing on class characteristics, ethnic qualities, regional values, or political views? Let’s at least be consistent with our views on salvation and how one comes to a reconciled position in Christ. It is not genetic. I don’t understand the hand wringing over ‘the next generation.’ “Evangelism” begins in the centers of our circles and works out from there…

Further, any one moment is simply a snapshot in the on-going narrative. I’ve watched my own kids go through long periods of faith-defying behaviors, attitudes, and conversations, yet find them returning, not to their “roots” (for that is a poor, contradictory term) but to their faith in Christ. It is something super-cultural, this faith we possess.

Jean says:

I am very grateful for liberals. They have produced the technology in my hybrid automobile, my iPhone, my laptop, ability for work from home, given me access to the tools of Google, like Maps, allow me to shop from home and kept prices down through the efficiencies of the internet, have produced social networks, like this blog and Facebook that keep me connected during a pandemic, are developing vaccines and therapeutics against Covid-19, and are working on solutions to climate change and environmental pollution.

Em says:

Haven’t come across any liberals fitting Michael’s definition above…. It would work, for the God fearing, but the god denying!?
What’s the definition of a conservative?

Em says:

If they are truly “god fearing,” they could not be terrifying. 😇
that said, there should be a happy medium – hard over liberal or conservative = dangerous non thinker…. IMHO, of course

God keep

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

Duane’s response above to Jean’s query about Dreher shows my point. He is all about what we as people need to do to preserve Christian faith and what we must do to protect the church.
He never speaks of the role of the Holy Spirit and seems fearful that the elect will not make it to their proper final destination.

It seems his writings are from a secular view of the church.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

You may be losing generations – there you and Dreher agree – however, God is not losing anyone – but you buy Dreher’s line.

Jean says:

One of the distortions of monergism and election is when a Christian thinks his behavior or his church’s behavior makes no impact on the spiritual health and perseverance of other Christians.

How many Judaizers did it take to impact the churches in Galatia? A couple or three?

How many false teachers brought about the German peasant revolt in Germany in 1523-25? A couple or three?

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

Duane, (1) you didn’t read further my comment to Michael and (2) you are not the judge of every thing I say.

Em says:

Gentlemen – STOP PICKIN ON EACH OTHER! ! ! 🙏

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

Nathan, the Pharisees were not Christians so there is no comparison in this discussion.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

Then they were not Christians if they hung on to their old loyalties.
I was raised Jewish and after 32 years I became Christian. I hung on to nothing of my past and I correct others when they try to label me as a messianic Jew or a completed Jew.

I highly doubt the authenticity of Jews who have divided loyalties.

Martin Luther's Disciple says:

Michael,
I was re reading a post of yours at 11:58 am yesterday. You said in one place;
“The witness of the faith once delivered is being distorted and compromised…bringing shame on the name of the King and slowing the progress and efficacy of the kingdom.”

You think this is unique to this age? As one who looks closely at history I find that comical. Go find a local rabbi and ask him if Jews past would have rather lived under Christian rule in the middle ages or that of Islam – the answer will be 100% living under Islam who up until the 20th century always treated the Jews as equals with full rights.

You know as well as I that since the creation of the Church, the Church has always had elements that act out as bastards – this should be no surprise, although it seems to be foreign to you.

You also said “Your faith is all about your personal security…mine is a whole lot broader than that.” There isn’t a moment of any single day that I give any thought to my own personal salvation – I only hope that Jesus gives it thought.

Em says:

Too much navel gazin goin on on this thread….
Like my refrigerator magnet reads, “Enjoy Christ”
If you know Him, enjoy Him….
Seems like good sense to me, anway…………… Dunno, tho, do i
God keeo