Mentioning Chuck

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59 Responses

  1. EricL says:

    How much wood could a would-Chuck chuck if a would-Chuck could chuck wood?

    Maybe we should rename all these CCA boys the would-Chuck gang, as in “Would Chuck do it that way?” or “Would Chuck ever have allowed that?”

    Their accusations sadden me. I spent nearly two decades in Calvary Chapels and, even though I’m no longer with that tribe, it is awful to see it disintegrate into stuff like this.

  2. EricL says:

    Should add, I’m glad that so many CC pastors and congregations haven’t sunk into this mire. I appreciate those I’m still in contact with who love the Lord and are serving faithfully. I also appreciate the CC folks who hang out here at the Phoenix Preacher site and share their views with the rest of us.

    Just wish the malcontents weren’t so attention hungry.

  3. covered says:

    It seems pretty obvious that it wouldn’t matter what Brian did after Chuck passed on. If Brian had dedicated the entire 2014 conference to Chuck, that surely would have upset someone. The agenda of the first generation Chuck worshippers known as the current CCA, is more evident now than ever.

  4. setsurin says:

    hello Phoenix Preacher community , a story really troubled me and I don’t know were to post this message and I was wondering can you guys help?

  5. Mel says:

    That midnight shift at my civilian job that I ask a co-worker who was in his maintenance shop working alone on a small machine. I ask him, Felipe, do you know anything about the Holy Bible. Felipe, put his tool down slowly and turn to me, and said what would you like to know about the Holy Bible. To make a long testimony short, I wasn’t aware that Felipe was the worship leader at Calvary Chapel Honolulu years ago.
    Since that night I have been attending Calvary Chapel, being fed by God’s Word, from Genesis through Revelation, book by book, chapter by chapter and verse by verse. This is how the late Pastor Chuck Smith from the Jesus movement started Calvary chapel.
    I am so very happy and rejoice that we have a handful of Calvary Chapel Pastors who has never stop following Pastor Chuck’s teaching the whole counsel of God. In Acts 20:27, the Apostle Paul said, I have never “shunned” teaching the Whole Counsel of God.”

  6. Michael says:


    You can post here or email me …

  7. Michael says:


    It’s more than a “handful”.
    It’s the vast majority.

  8. journeyman says:

    Wow, who is that dude with the permafrown in the video? Does this make him a liar or a purveyor of alternative facts?

  9. JD says:

    To me, in the church there’s not much worse than a pastor who lies.
    It reminds me of the bible verse John 12:6 about Judas.
    This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief and had the bag and would take from what was put therein.

  10. setsurin says:

    I would hope if possible for the other members to join in if they know anything and I think this is related to CC as well, have you guys heard of a woman named Johanna Michaelsen who goes to CC to preach and does heresy hunting? She tells the most outrageous stories about “psychic surgeons” (I checked the person she supposedly worked with is real) and it really bothered me, I mean I even got a mild anxiety attack once from thinking about her stories! I feel like I cant study Christianity or any other religion properly with these kinds of stories floating around

  11. Papias says:

    That video is such a bummer.

    My impression is that since CCA has not been able to reduce or boot Brian Broderson for theological reasons they are taking the route to try to besmirch Brian by saying that he has not given enough credit to Chuck.

    The section of “Chuckchuckchuckchuckchuck….” made me chuckle 🙂

    Lord Jesus lead your Church!

  12. Tim - Doulos says:

    Where was the video with Mike MacIntosh taken? Was that the latest conference in Golden Springs?

  13. Xenia says:

    Johanna Michaelsen<<<<

    I read her book many years ago. I think she was an inlaw of Hal Lindsey?

    Satan does have restricted powers and he can do supernatural things that might appear like miracles to the unwary. As to the truth of the stories n Michaelson's book, I don't take much that comes from that camp too seriously so who knows.

    Please, don't allow these things to worry you. Perfect love casts out all fear and your Savior loves you with a perfect love. Have faith in him and if you find yourself feeling anxious, go to a quiet place and talk to God about it. He will take away your fears.

    God bless you,

  14. John 20:29 says:

    setsurin, many, many years ago, when i asked her a question about the devil, my wise grandmother said that we should ignore him and concentrate on Christ Jesus and then something to the effect that examination of the work of the devil is way above our pay grade, to paraphrase her words

  15. John 20:29 says:

    #13 – “The Beautiful Side of Evil” was written by the sister in law of H. Lindsey before or during the time that she “served” as the 3rd wife of said celebrity… not too good a track record for a counsellor – as i see it – dunno

  16. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Luther threw his chamber pot at the devil.

  17. shortpolock says:


    Her stories are quite interesting. I would not venture to say she is lying. My mother and Godmother have interesting stories as well and have not written any books so I wouldn’t see a reason why they would lie. Therefore I believe Ms. Michaelsen. There are many implausible stories in scripture that serve as examples of God working in strange ways, even using Satan to accomplish His will. I mean look at the Crucifixion. Consider also these things are happening in cultures steeped in occult religions.

    Remember, Johanna was NOT saved when she was partaking in these psychic rituals. She completely renounced those things and has moved on in a life of faithfulness to the word of God.

    Here is a link and a snippet from a website I found:

    While Scripture shows that Satan does not cast out his demons (Mark 3:23-26), it would certainly work to his advantage (as the god of this world – II Cor. 4:4) to make his ministers appear to have healing power. Keep in mind that Satan can do whatever God allows him to do. (See Job 1:12; 2:6.) And, as Matthew 12:43-45 shows, if a person possessed by a demon is freed from it, and the person’s mind is not receptive to the truth from God’s Word, then that demon will return, bringing with him “seven more wicked than himself.”

    Also consider that Satan does not have our best interests at heart (I Pet. 5:8). He knows that “he has but a short time” (Rev. 12:12) before Christ returns. He knows that our ultimate potential, as those made in the image of God (Gen. 1:26), is to rule with Christ in the kingdom of God. Not only does he not desire to physically heal anyone of anything (even if he had that power), he also seeks to deceive all people and blind them to God’s Purpose—that of spiritually healing the entire world.
    Finally, understand that healing involves—and requires—the forgiveness of sin. Obviously, Satan has no such power.

  18. shortpolock says:

    Having now posted that, I see they think they are the only ones who teach the whole word of God. I would take a good answer as simply that and move on from that site.

    Sorry about that everyone…

  19. setsurin says:

    well Michaelsen I hear is trying to republish her books… oh joy, and the thing is, these stories they just bother me too much it feels like I cant objectively compare religions with those stories floating around

  20. shortpolock says:

    You are trying to inquire about Jesus?

  21. If I remember correctly, Chuck died in October and the conference Mike is referring to (and shown in the video) was in the following June. I was at it. It as 8-9 months after Chuck died. It was well after the memorial service. Shoot, Chuck had been being memorialized for years before he died! To expect a moment of silence 8 months after the fact seems a bit much.

    I will say I didn’t appreciate Lusko’s comments, or anything about him really. I don’t get the appeal. Personality, energy, and the ability to rhyme are not the marking of any kind of anointing with the Holy Spirit as is to often said about people like him. They are crowd and marketing skills. And don’t turn your child’s death into a book selling and marketing opportunity. He came to our church as part of his tour, it was disgusting. He did his presentation, and then came out to a special book signing and photo op line (which people just ate up), and he changed outfits for the photo op! What is that?

    I’m looking for real/genuine and all I see are a second and third generation of celebrity pastors who have not learned from their supposed mentors, or learned the wrong lessons.

    I wanna go home. Are we there yet?

  22. shortpolock says:


    I second that. Amen.

  23. setsurin says:

    well i just want to know something about Michaelsen and her story

  24. Steve says:

    That band on Mike Macintosh’s hand looks like a hospital bracelet. Is he ok?

  25. Michael says:

    That book came out when devil themed books were a booming cottage industry. I think we all read it.
    My take is that it’s irrelevant to real inquiry about the faith.

  26. setsurin says:

    I understand Michael, I guess that’s why Michaelsen seems to have such a hard time republishing it

  27. Michael says:

    She is on the old ODM circuit still trying to keep people scared and suspicious. Some of us grew up…

  28. setsurin says:

    whats ODM?

  29. Michael says:

    Online Discernment Ministry…

  30. Scooter Jones says:

    I noticed that the first thing Mike seemed perturbed by was showing up at the conference and there were “all these men there we didn’t know.”

    That says a lot to me right there.

  31. Captain Kevin says:

    Mike Mac has always been really good at what us pirates refer to as spinning a yarn.

  32. Anne says:

    I’m always flabbergasted by how so called men of God who extoll bible literalism can lie so easily and with such seemingly sincere conviction. The only thing that boggles my mind more is how willing others are to cut them slack when they do even when caught red handed in their deceit.

  33. Sherlock H. says:

    This video’s so Chucked-up

  34. Xenia says:

    These poor old guys are feeling left out.

    Well, that’s what is going to happen when you base your ministry on appealing to youth.

  35. I’d like to temper my earlier comments with that I can’t imagine losing a child, particularly a young one, especially how they did. And, I would also try to use that tragedy as an opportunity to build God’s kingdom, to do something positive with it, as a friend of mine did when his son died of cancer. However, the display that went on tour, I felt, was just wrong. Regardless of how people were encouraged by the book or the story, it just didn’t seem God honoring. I’m one of those weird people who is more concerned with the “why” behind something is done. The way the tour looked, the why looked like promoting the author and getting autographs than anything else. Just this reporter’s observation.

  36. JoelG says:

    In regards to the focus on youngins / “celebrity” pastors (book signings etc) I am torn. I’m a bit of a curmudgeon when it comes to church marketing. If the Spirit draws people to Jesus, why the need to hip things up and appeal to the yoots? On the other hand, out younger neighbors are in desperate need of the Hope of Jesus so why not do whatever it takes to get them into church? I dunno…..

  37. em ... again says:

    “Luther threw his chamber pot at the devil.” … IMX … any dealings that one has with the devil, you are the one that is left to clean up the mess … 🙂

    altho, i can imagine old Martin calling to his wife, “Dear, will you come in here for a minute; I need your help with something…” dunno, tho – do i? just sayin

  38. JoelG @37 – I see what you mean and I used to think the same way. However, the modern idea that the place people are supposed to come to Jesus is in the church building is, I believe, an error. Anyone and everyone should be able to be used by God to connect people with Jesus. God doesn’t need people to do this, but it’s one of the main ways He chooses to make this happen.

    The idea that we have to get them to hear a special person and they will for sure come to Christ is a fallacy perpetuated, deliberately to not, by many leaders and churches. It’s also perpetuated by too many Christians. “I am of Paul, I am of Apollos.” We are all to bear fruit in the way God has wired and gifted us, not just the speaker. I say “speaker” instead of “pastor” deliberately, but that’s for another time.

    In fact, one of the sad realities of Resurrection Sunday is the push to get people to bring other people to church. Same thing happens at Christmas. Why not spend all that marketing budget and man-hours on equipping the saints for the work of ministry beyond being greeters and teachers of kids classes? Nothing wrong with those things, but it is so much more than those things. The Sunday event/experience has become the main channel for evangelism, which means the teaching is lowered to that level which means no one is growing and people who do want more have to go find it somewhere else.

    Sorry, second verse, same as the first with me. My record might be broken, but that doesn’t mean the song is wrong.

    I’m looking for balance and its harder to come by.

  39. JoelG says:

    Wise thoughts, Corby. I’m on board with all your points. At the same time if God chooses to use these kinds of churches to share His Gospel then of course that’s a good thing (although I don’t think the “decision” / alter call thing is biblical).

    Btw I see we have a previous church in common that we might be drawing some experience from. 🙂

    Interesting things to ponder.

  40. JoelG – agreed on all counts.

  41. Alex says:

    Always interesting to observe human nature. Mike is sincere in that video, from his perspective, Chuck wasn’t mentioned or acknowledged, that was his honest take-away, just like many of the folks who came to my old blog really believed what they were telling me, but when push came to shove, the stories fell apart, their “perspective” was not reality, in many cases.

    Mike is a good dude, we spent some time together behind the scenes at the recent conference. He’s human and flawed like all of us. All of us are guilty of really believing we’re right about a wide range of things, and guess what, sometimes we’re wrong. Doesn’t make us the Devil incarnate, makes us human in need of much grace and forgiveness and love.

    Having said that, I don’t think the video is unfair or over-done, it makes its point. Mike’s perspective was his perspective and he misspoke if it was literal and not hyperbolic or polemic or “in essence”. Also something we see in the Bible where there are statements made that if taken literally, are provably incorrect, but if taken “in essence” are true.

    The view I got from behind the scenes as an outsider was a group of aging veteran pastors who have been through many wars and many victories and many defeats who are actually listening to their critics and working at not being “old wine skins” and are dedicated to finishing well and teaching the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ until God takes them from this existence. Perfectly? No way, they are just men and human like the rest of us. Sincere? Yes. Orthodox in their presentation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Yes. A love for those they minister to and teach and lead? Yes, very much so. Always right about everything? No. None of us are.

  42. Alex says:

    Corby said, “They are crowd and marketing skills. And don’t turn your child’s death into a book selling and marketing opportunity. He came to our church as part of his tour, it was disgusting. He did his presentation, and then came out to a special book signing and photo op line (which people just ate up), and he changed outfits for the photo op! What is that?”

    I don’t have any direct personal experience with Levi, just what I’ve seen and heard so I won’t offer any opinions of him personally. I hear a lot of good and then there are some criticisms I have heard, like yours.

    Here’s what’s tough for me after being on all sides of this stuff now: There is a healthy side of marketing and presentation if the goal and heart is to do something “Good” and the marketing and promotion is a means or tool or mechanism to an end or doing good by getting the word out on something good like the Gospel or helping rehab your parents’ image and reputation after it was largely falsely tarnished by yourself and others b/c sources lied or their stories turned out to not hold up under scrutiny.

    In my situation, I wanted to participate in what could be called a bit of marketing and promotion in terms of a video and public speaking as part of two events etc. Why? It was not to promote myself, it was out of a heart of wanting to help my parents, who I love, and help them recover to some degree from years of being torn down thanks to my own efforts (for which I feel terrible, still). And, the hopes that the story will serve as a warning to other Sons and Daughters, other families, other bloggers etc to avoid the mistakes I made and to learn something about humans and human nature and “sources” and your own bias when you are at odds with someone or some entity.

    Some differences, my head was down at both events, I was humble, I was apologetic, I wasn’t there to sign books or to collect any money. When I was approached by people after both events (and I was approached by many) I was ashamed but grateful for the opportunity to make some good out of a very bad situation and to thank the people for their kindness toward me and my family and to ask for forgiveness if I had hurt them in any way for negativity I promoted online.

    I had two choices, shut up and hide and go back to my secular life in the small biz world and wash my hands of the whole thing, or take some responsibility and try to help my parents and CC Visalia recover to some degree and to help make amends with Calvary Chapel and try to rehab their image as well after years of hammering away at them. My flesh wanted to take the easy way out, but I decided to swallow my pride and face the music and do what I could to help out. The video and speaking was for that singular purpose. Now is that “marketing”? Yes, it was. Is that a bad thing or a good thing? I think it was a good thing and I’ll continue to try and mend fences and correct the record and build up, if given the opportunity.

    I don’t know Levi, but it could be that his “marketing” is sincere and he uses those tools to get his message out b/c he is sincere and believes the story of his son will help families who have suffered in a similar manner and that inside, he’s actually sucking it up and putting on the charm and public face b/c that is what’s expected of him in telling that story, but inside it could be very difficult for him. Just something to consider. Not all of these guys that use marketing are jerks.

  43. Steve says:

    Orthodox in their presentation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Yes.

    Alex, you would have to define Orthodox to me. I learned a lot from your own blog. In some parts of CC, I would say their understanding of the trinity is less than orthodox. You can check out CC philly’s understanding and consider that they seemed to have no issue with in Jesus name only baptisms (the practice of modalism), I would call that less than orthodox. Regarding the bodily resurrection of the dead, sometimes CC seems pretty gnostic. Anyway, I learned a lot of this theology from your own blog. However, everything else you said I agree with. I am so happy for and so glad you are at peace.

  44. John Donne says:

    Hey Alex are you not bothered by those who get rich off the gospel, who live high above the people who they supposedly “minister” to, who escape accountability because supposedly are only accountable to God, who continue to use the Jesus money to enrich themselves, and by promoting and following the “Moses model” make themselves into little popes, who continue to feed and buy into the Christian celebrity cult, who have created little nepotistic fiefdoms and choke out and quench the Spirit as they create employment agencies for their family members, who lift up the building and expansion of edifices over reaching out to the poor and destitute. What happened to Alex, how was his voice silenced, a voice that was crying with truth and conviction over legitimate hurt that had been inflicted upon his soul by those who abuse positions of power, well he may have been silenced but there are still a lot of crying voices that CC has hurt and chooses to ignore.

  45. I think marketing has its place. I enjoy good marketing. I market myself and the stuff I try to make for the benefit of others. I think all churches should market themselves in the sense of making themselves known in a community. However, church marketing should never manipulate, only communicate. And I’m not saying they are all jerks. If anything I’d say ambitious to a fault.

  46. Alex says:

    “What happened to Alex…”

    God humbled me and taught me that we’re all the victims and all the perps, we’re all that example of a bad pastor. The pastors are human beings like the rest of us. This isn’t the Old Testament, Jesus ushered in a “New Testament” of New Covenant and with it the Law of Love. We’re in a dispensation of Grace. It’s still completely good and valid to hold opinions of how ministry should be done, but it should be done with respect, the truth as you perceive it expressed in Love, with a heart that sincerely wants to love and restore the sinning pastor vs. punishing them and embarrassing them publicly.

  47. Alex says:

    Agreed Corby, I am in your Camp on that issue. Churches should market themselves b/c they are selling a product in a sense, and that Product (the Gospel of Jesus Christ) is truly the answer to people’s problems. But, as you said, it shouldn’t manipulate and shouldn’t puff up the central figure/pastor, in my opinion. The “successful” pastors (measured by numbers) are often ambitious, but they would see that as a virtue and not a vice b/c most of them are sincere in their belief that they have been “called” and are fulfilling their mission given to them by God to spread the Gospel and to teach the Bible. They view ambition as God-given and a sign they are called to be in ministry. That’s the other perspective, I think.

  48. Kevin H says:


    I think your observations about Mike MacIntosh in the video are quite astute. MacIntosh probably wasn’t intentionally lying. He probably got upset that there wasn’t some official or formalized planned time at the conference to recognize Chuck and so in his own mind he comes to the conclusion that Chuck was totally blocked out and fails to recognize all the times he was actually talked about, many times probably done so in a respectful and honoring fashion. Of course, reality proves that MacIntosh’s contention in the video is completely wrong.

    The greater difficulty comes into play here because of MacIntosh’s position. Scripture tells us that teachers are held to a greater judgment. They carry more responsibility. So when a person in MacIntosh’s position misleads a very large group of other pastors and leaders and essentially slanders those who conducted/spoke at previous conferences, this is a serious problem, even if he thinks he’s right in his own mind. Even more serious than some “commoner” who says similar things on a blog, again by virtue of MacIntosh’s position and circumstances of where and how he spoke.

  49. Babylon's Dread says:

    Mike McIntosh was one of those with a debt to Lonnie Frisbee from the stuff I have read and studied? From what I hear MM was healed of a mental illness but perhaps it has returned.

  50. Xenia says:

    These old boys are getting a taste of what happened to all the older people in CC Costa Mesa when Chuck turned it into a weekly youth event.

    I wonder how many people over age 50 attend Levi’s church.

    I was talking to some folks from my old CC. The old pastor’s son is now the pastor. He made a lot of trendy changes that one could not help wondering if were done for the purpose of chasing the old folks- the people who help found that church and paid for the fancy building- away. One lady was crying because it seemed so deliberate and so hurtful.

    So all this is wrong. Attend a non-trendy church that respects all ages. If you are someone who enjoys a church that caters to hipsters, you had better keep in mind that one day you will be considered a tedious old person and will be on the outside looking in, just as you did to the old folks who used to attend your church before God told you to get a fog machine. Otherwise, you will find yourself on the sofa with these old boys, whining about the good old days.

  51. Michael says:


    Now that was funny….

  52. Michael says:

    Xenia speaks with wisdom, as usual.

  53. Xenia says:

    I think these guys were so used to be consider so hip and cutting edge and so “new wine” that they can’t stand it they they are yesterday’s news.

    They did it to themselves.

  54. Michael says:

    What these guys are doing is “invoking the bishop”.
    If they speak about him enough they hope to have his mantle fall on them through sheer repetition and the claim that the mantle fits them to a tee…

  55. JM says:

    Alex, #42. “just like many of the folks who came to my old blog really believed what they were telling me, but when push came to shove, the stories fell apart, their “perspective” was not reality, in many cases.”

    You may be able to say that “some” of the stories fell apart for the reasons you cite. However, you cannot make an all-inclusive, blanket statement like the one you made in front of people like me. My story was true and I followed the Biblical prescription to make things right, but the power structure would not let it proceed. That was not “perspective”–that was reality. Infact, it is my understanding that Michael’s experience was similar many years ago. The system made it impossible for redress. Out of regard for those whose stories are similar, I hope you will do the right thing and qualify your statement. You have to consider that you encouraged testimonies of whatever kind in the first place. Upon those that deserve credit for telling the truth, the attitude reflected in your statement can have the effect of making the genuine souls feel used, and that, when they served your purpose, they were of no more value to you than to be tossed away like rubbish. They will feel lied to and completely betrayed. They are human beings–fellow believers–and deserve more respect than that. I would like to think that is not what you intended–but I feel it is necessary to reflect that back to you for your own sake.

    Also, as you might recall, I offered prayer on your family’s behalf and I kept that promise. I even offered monetary help for your legal expenses before you shut down your site. Very glad that things worked out better than that. Further, I am genuinely happy for your present peace and well-being. I said on another thread that peace in the family is a sacred thing to me and I would never seek to discount it in any way. You did a very noble thing by standing up publicly in Bob Grenier’s pulpit and correcting all the things that were erroneously and publicly said about him. That is a rarity and it gets my unqualified agreement and applause. However, we do have a few remaining issues here.

    “I had two choices, shut up and hide and go back to my secular life in the small biz world and wash my hands of the whole thing, or take some responsibility and try to help my parents and CC Visalia recover to some degree and to help make amends with Calvary Chapel and try to rehab their image as well after years of hammering away at them.”

    Repentance followed by a whole-hearted zeal to make reparations is usually a good thing and, in the case of your parents–was a very good thing. However, your turnabout into actually defending CC elder pastors and policies is an unnecessary overcorrection. Reconciling with your family does not obligate that you stand in agreement with a system whose foundation was, in the end, built upon the personality and policies of one man who was disqualified for service 40 years ago and never publicly repented. Many of the original pastors knew of his sin and aided and abetted in its cover up. On top of that, as was confirmed to me on this blog, when the Hocking scandal arose, the biggest concern to those close to Chuck (of which some of these were elder pastors) was that Chuck’s own sin of immorality would be exposed by the public mishandling of the situation. Why were these “guys like us” not more worried about the horrific precedent of uncared for, unrepentant sexual sin among its own leaders. Though born of selfish reasoning and misplaced loyalty (idolatry) perhaps the “elders” were right in worrying that Chuck’s sin would be exposed. The Hocking incident was when I figured out that the sin of adultery in the camp went all the way to the top. Interestingly, many years later, your own site confirmed the truth about Chuck’s infidelity and who knew about it.

    It is sick and disgusting that CC leaders could know about Chuck, live with it and all it caused, and not be appalled at what a stain it was on their organization. They put a man’s gifts above the holiness of God and were deliberately disobedient to Scripture. That is not a small thing. Think about it. The fact that the sin of immorality combined with the man-made, rationalized Moses Model leavened the lump and gave us scandals like Coy and Caldwell are completely explained by these “original sins”. Their hands are all still dirty because they haven’t repented of lying to God’s church. Sadly, these incidents that were fostered as much by silence and complicity after the fact, have further stained CC and the church at large. Right now, I can’t think of any senior CC pastors who made public statements of how wrong those situations were and how they regretted the affects they had upon the sheep. It is noteworthy that even Coy’s powerful chums, who sat with him on a stage, with the blessing of Chuck, were silent even though it was not long after this stage event that Bob’s true nature was exposed with all the perversions to which he was a party. Being a “loose” association does not and never will exempt any pastor from doing the right thing or speaking publicly about abuse or sin in the camp.

    Dear Alex, I submit to you that all you are doing is providing more fig leaves to further cover up the sin in the camp. If you really wanted to “rehab” anything, you should advocate that they clean out their camp and repent. In the future, it should be about Christ and Him crucified — not Chuck and him disqualified. That’s where they should start–repenting of their idolatry. Doing so would accomplish far more. Continuing on in denial of the seriousness of all this will only speed up the demise of the entire organization. God will take care of His church. If these men will not do what they need to, then their lamp will be put somewhere else–if it hasn’t been already. You cannot fix that with fig leaves.

    To be clear, there is no advocating of some kind of unfair perfection on the part of yours truly. Nothing could be further from the truth. If anyone could be perfect, Christ died in vain. As was stated in part above in another post–Scripture is clear that pastors are to be judged more harshly/strictly in what they do and, further, if they do not repent, on the basis of two or three witnesses, they are to be publicly rebuked. Their sin is different because they affect more people. “To much is given, much is required”. That is why these “guys” are not just like us. They chose their path deliberately and are responsible for all that came with it.

    We all sin and come short of the glory of God. In the end, though–the line that separates all of us who profess to know Christ from those who “say” they know Him or “say” they are serving Him–will always be the ability to call sin what it is and, when thou art the man– repent–truly repent. While you have done well, Alex, in trying to bear fruits in keeping with your repentance–so far there is no evidence these men have taken responsibility for even their agreement with the sin in the camp. They have not done well. These things are not private, so their repentance cannot be any more private than was yours. Since you are not responsible for the sins of these men, you would do well to get out of the way, let them put on their big boy pants and answer for themselves.

    Note: I will offer that your stepfather seemed to represent himself well when he came on this blog. I would have liked the answers to my questions–but I respected what effort he did make.

  56. JM says:


    I have given some links that might help with info on Johanna Michaelsen. She has been on the wrong side of a few things in the past (she stuck up for Mike Warnke and Laurel Wilson and unverified SRA). I have never known what to think about her story of involvement in psychic surgery. Her account of what happens has been verified, but some have still wondered about her part of the story.

  57. Ixtlan says:

    :The “successful” pastors (measured by numbers) are often ambitious, but they would see that as a virtue and not a vice b/c most of them are sincere in their belief that they have been “called” and are fulfilling their mission given to them by God to spread the Gospel and to teach the Bible. ”

    Two things.

    1. Most of these men do not comprehend with any depth, the difference between virtue and vice. They are operating from ignorance.

    2. The massive expansion of their personal ecclesial franchises conveys the message that the necessity of their presence extends way beyond their locale. The creation of such machines becomes a soft denial of the Holy Spirit’s power to do it without them. Such disunion with the Spirit creates a void, which is filled with the self. So much for “sincerity.” That feeds the cult of personality, that in reality is an expression of idolatry within evangelicalism. In short, evangelicalism has a lot of people who are really worshipping someone other than Jesus, and the responsibility bears upon pulpit and pew alike.

  58. Ixtlan says:

    “I’m looking for balance and its harder to come by.”

    Same here. It might be that a better balance is found outside of evangelicalism? Or at least the “mainstream non-denominational” format? Still working through that one myself.

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