More from the CC Split

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96 Responses

  1. Paige says:

    Hmm Very interesting and not really surprising. I have to wonder what Chuck Jr thinks of all this (if he cares)…. not that any of it matters. God’s Spirit is so much much larger than these toddler cries of “MINE” and He will move the flow of His Spirit where hearts are softened.
    IMO

  2. Josh the Baptist says:

    “What is interesting is that there has been no groundswell of questioning about why the corporation is suspended…thou shalt not ask difficult questions of those in “leadership”.”

    The obvious answer would seem to be ineptitude, right? Do you know of some motive?

  3. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I have no information on why the corporation was allowed to go into suspension, nor why it the proper filings to have it reinstated have not been made.
    I do know that this was supposed to be a shell corporation without any assets and that has not been the case.
    If I was a CC pastor I would want to know the answers to these questions.
    However, when I raise the questions all they want to talk about is Brodersens position on women in the pulpit…which to my mind is not connected to this matter in any way.

  4. ( |o )====::: says:

    I think there will soon be a discovery of special golden cassette tapes of Word For Today studio outtakes buried in the planter by Chuck’s old office that will warn all of a pending visit from the angel Smith-oni saying

    “they are all wrong”

  5. Bob Sweat says:

    Michael,
    I just emailed you.

  6. Bob Sweat says:

    I find it interesting that a CC pastors, and a former CC pastor or down playing this whole thing on Facebook. I respect both these men.

  7. journeyman says:

    can you let us know who the 2 additional resignations were? Thank you.

  8. Michael says:

    Todays missing photos are of Bob Caldwell and Tom Stipe.

  9. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    It doesn’t surprise me because when you (anyone) flagrantly disregards God’s Word, sooner or later it will bring fruit. What’s sad is when we think we can control our flesh or its impact.
    Let me explain.
    For decades the CC rather publicly flogged other ministries, then when “those ministries” pointed it out, all of a sudden those same men then publicly played nice, claiming “we can learn something” from them. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad maturity was achieved, but I never heard the apology come from the same KWAVE ridicule media channels.
    Jesus clearly stated in Matthew 18:15 how we are SUPPOSED to deal with offenses in the body as well as other verses about brotherly love.
    CCs flagrantly ridiculed many other movements of God, then when they realized it was hurting them, all of a sudden CCs change their tune.
    Now this LONG-RUNNING debacle.
    Ephesians 5:21 clearly states the importance of mutual submission.
    However, when a structure was observed to create narcissists and boy-kings, again the problem was clearly ignored.
    It’s comical (literally) that anyone involved in “the movement” now acts shocked these guys can’t get along, REALLY?!!!
    Have we not seen decades of them not getting along, with anyone outside, let alone inside. MANY CCs have started in spite of one of the king’s wishes. Then, when the new king/caesar get’s support (the hallowed dove), all of a sudden the narrative changes “when I was raising up” blah-blah.
    Had the “Moses-Model” (which for some reason Jesus chose to ignore for most of Church history by the way) been further inspected early on WHEN MANY SAW TROUBLES early on, the CC system wouldn’t be in this mess.
    Think I’m wrong?
    Ask anyone else who has live in several different areas of the country where these guys don’t get along, never had got along, and keep their pissing contests going, then be shocked about this latest development.
    Believe it or not I’m not “bitter” because I’ve moved on long ago.
    What continues to surprise me is how many of us hard-working people “in the world” put up with it (yea, I know, “we are all ministers” blah-blah, its true, but not the way CC acts). MOST of us had to grow-up just to function in society. You don’t get paid very long if you act like most “leaders” in the CC way. Yet, many continue to support these clowns or worse, adopt their tantrums on others (just ask many of the wives, seriously, go ahead!).
    Yes I know not all CC guys are like this, but that MOST kept their mouth shut for SO long kills my respect for them.

  10. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    I’d like to clarify in case my focus isn’t clear.
    My intent was NOT to focus on all CC pastors, but their corporate structure, which like the golden calf, is cherished and protected above all else.
    I guess the other irony is that both “sides” would NEVER question the Moses-Model, the very vehicle which brought them to this place.

  11. Steve Wright says:

    It is truly disappointing to see the CCA letters now published BUT just show the signature as CCA council when the makeup of that council is constantly being shuffled WITHOUT any notice to the affiliate churches.

    Imagine a church in the midst of controversy showing a letter that seems to support the pastor as signed “The Board” while leaving out the fact that many on the board resigned or were replaced in order for that pastor to have such (seeming) support in “The Board’s” name.

    There were names attached to both letters when they were sent to us originally, and as I noted in last week’s discussion, there were names from the council not included on those letters, and a name included that was not on the council.

    Unless you take screenshots to keep track of the names and faces each week, you might miss something. Is that the point? If all these men are the “Timothy’s” of Pastor Chuck’s life, then why are some of them bailing out? When do we get to hear from them?

    Pastors, we are called to be “blameless” and this behavior does not evidence that calling.

    Jesus could say, “In secret I have said nothing” and while that does not mean we are not allowed to have confidential discussions, nor is it always the loving thing to do to air in public all that could be hurtful of another – nonetheless, we are to govern our ministries as an open book out of the fear of the Lord.

    Why would we seek to hide from one another when “all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with Whom we have to do.”

    Fear the Lord, not man, my brothers.

    Pastor Steve Wright
    Calvary Chapel of Lake Elsinore

  12. Michael says:

    Well said, Steve.

    I hope that those who refuse to hear me will listen to you.

  13. EricL says:

    Is the CCA much like Hotel California: You can check out but you can never leave?

    They say a church is a “member” if the senior pastor joins. Well, BB has clearly left and yet CCCM is still listed in the church directory, along with many pages dedicated to various CCCM properties, like the Bible College campuses and the conference centers. If they find BB so offensive, why do they let such things sully their CCA website?

  14. Randall Slack says:

    “…there have been those that have decided that their values were different, and they have gone on with another group such as the Pentecostals, or Acts 29, or Gospel Coalition, or Vineyard, or Hillsong, and that is truly fine. All these ministry families have their core values just as we do…”

    Hillsong? Really? Core values? Unbelievable!

  15. Ms, ODM says:

    Funny = I posted those letters in a thread on my facebook page a couple of weeks ago. I was surprised you didn’t pick up on it.

  16. Jerod says:

    Could you link your articles about Chuck’s CCA letter being falsified or ghost written?

    About those testaments concerning the CCA’S tax status, I agree with another writer who assumes its because of ignorance on the matter. If what you and others say is true, many CC’s are not forthcoming about finances anyway.

    I disagree with Bryan (shocked?): these matters are doctrinal. Not the verse x verse issue, but the whole counsel of God, prophecy. You cannot preach that w/out all 66 books. If it was good enough for Jesus and His apostles, how can we do any less? Did the Holy Spirit neglect to go through Numbers, Ezekiel, etc with Jesus, as He mentored the Son of God? Did Paul skip that part in his studies? I am certain, what with the amount of time he spent teaching in Ephesus, that he did not neglect to teach through those.

    BB’s example of Paul and Barnabus leaves out the distinction between relational issues and doctrinal issues, obviously because he chooses to believe it is just a methodological dispute. But it is indeed more like Whitfield and Wesley’s theological row.

    God can use anything to save people, he can use a bible or he can use no bible to save people. He can even use Benny Hinn. That does not alleviate a shepherd from the responsibility of using God’s entire revelation to that Pastor to equip the saints. I think we put ourselves in the place of the Holy Spirit to divvy up His Word as acceptable here and then, but not there and then.

  17. Michael says:

    You can do a search up at top right for the Calvary Chapel Association.
    Good luck with the IRS if you plead ignorance…that’s pure bull manure.

    I have no intention of dragging my church through Numbers or Leviticus either…and they are quite biblically literate anyway.

  18. stephen says:

    I really just hope this mess ends soon….

    John Randall isn’t helping things, though. Actually, maybe he is. His blog posts are very pro-CCA and not-pro BB (I can’t say “anti” because he’s not directly attacking him)

    …although his Vimeo about his radio program stopping on KWVE is interesting. I wonder how that happened and who was the antagonist….

  19. Michael says:

    It won’t end anytime soon…and it could get even nastier.
    KWVE may be cleaning house of people who didn’t want to play nice…

  20. Steve Wright says:

    People don’t want to hear the truth. They just don’t.

    Carl wrote last week “Brian is now doing 50-60 minutes of Bible exposition on Sunday mornings (currently Galatians). I like that he sticks to teaching the text. He restructured the times of the morning services to allow for more time, so he could do this. Chuck spoke about 30 minutes in more of a textual message. Brian has moved the Thru-the-Bible to Wednesday nights, where he has started over in Genesis. He has changed the Sunday evening to a prayer and worship format.”

    So why don’t you see several months down the road If he starts skipping Old Testament books on Wednesday nights. Because right now he sounds more committed than Chuck Smith was to verse by verse exposition of the text – which Chuck did NOT do on Sunday mornings, nor during the midweek in the 8 years I was there, just Sunday nights.

    Likewise, I challenged anyone to actually listen to Chuck teach through the first five chapters of Leviticus even when it WAS his supposed verse by verse teaching….but Jerod, I am guessing you did not. Here it is again.

    http://www.ffmp3.com/CM/CCCM-C2000/mp3/c2032.mp3

    It’s bad enough to sow division, worse to sow it with lies and deceit or (if charitable) misinformation.

  21. Michael says:

    Steve,

    Thank you for repeating that…because that crap accusation is all over the internet, mostly propagated by CC pastors.

  22. stephen says:

    Jerod,

    Neither Jesus nor any of the apostles had all 66 books…unless we credit John after he penned Revelation.

    Not that Jesus needed them, of course. 😉

  23. stephen says:

    Agreed with Steve (20) and Michael (21)

  24. covered says:

    Michael, how do you see the breakdown of pastor’s allegiance to CCA & CC Global? Do you see more pastor’s going to one or the other as opposed to committing to both? So far, both sides say pastor’s are welcome to do both but I can’t see that working. What say you?

  25. Michael says:

    covered,

    My guess at this juncture is that a substantial majority will stay with CCA as they refuse to look at the real evidence and seem to have no capacity to process this sort of division.

    Steve Wright is one of very few who are actually asking the right questions and making cogent observations.

    I appreciate that greatly as I try to provide answers that others won’t give.

    The thing that has to be noted is that Brodersen really doesn’t seem to give a damn what others think…he’s going to do what he thinks is right and let people do what they choose.

  26. covered says:

    I totally agree regarding Steve’s position. To some it must seem like a kick in the gut. I also agree with regards to Brian not seeming to care what others think. This attitude will serve him well during this process.

  27. Michael says:

    I will say this…I completely underestimated how far and fast this would spread…and the incredible amount of misinformation and slander that is out there.

  28. covered says:

    I haven’t communicated with my CC pastor friends assuming that they are wrestling with this. I still think that the CCA Council doing business in the shadow’s so to speak has upset many of the good guys.

  29. Michael says:

    covered,

    The thing many don’t get is that this has been going on from the beginning…and Brodersen bent over backwards to accommodate the traditionalists who despised him.

    Lots of these guys are just weary of it all…

  30. stephen says:

    I find BB’s graciousness despite all this is commendable. And, all your comments about his “not caring will serve him well,” are spot on.

  31. covered says:

    It should be pointed out that there are many more CC guys like Steve than like the old school guys. I would love to see BB take his dove and his ball and go home…

  32. Michael says:

    That’s exactly what he’s done….

  33. Steve Wright says:

    Let me say something about “Steve’s position”

    I sat under Chuck Smith in the pews (when there were pews) for 8 solid years, 3 services a week listening to the man (not counting all the tapes, school of ministry etc). As simply one of the many thousand sheep in the congregation. I was there from 1993-2001, when (unlike the early 70s) things were firmly established and pretty well locked in from Sunday to Sunday, but at the same time as ministry continued to grow in new, different ways (like the Murrieta property purchase). I served as a volunteer for 6 of those 8 years in a variety of ministry (4 distinct teaching ministries to different audiences and in different settings), under Carl, who was under Chuck.

    Go read the Harvest book. There is hardly a name in that book that sat and served at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa under Chuck for even HALF that amount of time. Many if not most existing Calvary pastors today NEVER were a member of Chuck’s flock, as they came out of established Calvarys elsewhere – and all of that is fine and good UNTIL they start talking about ministry “as Chuck used to do it”

    Now, they had plenty more conversations with Chuck, they were good friends and he was their father in the faith, but he was MY father in the faith too, and we never had a personal conversation lasting more than 5 minutes I would guess. We sure never had a meal together, or hung out backstage at conferences, and no, I was not privy to private discussions where he shared his heart’s desire for the movement. I’m not pretending I was his close friend or one of these “Timothy’s”. I sat under him, and the Lord led me out to serve elsewhere than Costa Mesa. Sound familiar?

    My point is this. Just as many of you longtime readers probably feel like you know my philosophy of ministry, how we do things at CCLE and so forth, because I have talked so much with you here and on facebook etc for many years, you would have to actually talk to my assistant pastors, elders, and the longtime members of CCLE to TRULY know how I pastor. You would have to BE THERE as a sheep – to know how the pastor related to the sheep. Not as a peer outside the church at other events. That is true for everyone…even Chuck. And so when I read stuff from others when I know how Chuck actually did things for those 8 years for us in the pews (and for us who were volunteers), it gets frustrating.

    Then to hear Brian knocked (who of course was also there for a couple of those years and all the years afterwards) it is not fair, and it is not becoming of servants of Christ.

  34. covered says:

    I agree Steve, it’s not fair and it isn’t being handled well by the CCA Council. For the guys like you who have invested so much of their heart, it’s a shot in the gut.

  35. Jerod says:

    Pastor Steve, Thank you so much for your personal response. Sorry for the length but didn’t want to make any pretexts out of the quotes.

    Have you listened to the entire panel discussions?

    Are BB’s current Genesis lessons v x v or key points and stories, as he said he does?

    Listen to what he says in the panel. He says he thinks the whole counsel

    whole

    means less than all. But here, in the next verse,
    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/20-28.htm
    the same word “pan” refers to all the flock. So if the whole counsel of God means less than all of His word in v 27, which part of “all” the flock may the pastor amputate, silence, and/or disregard in his duties to guard the flock?
    Thank you Jesus for my pastor.

    When did rightly dividing become amputating books and prophecies?

    To repeat
    I’m not hung up on v x v teaching.
    I like my Calvary, but there are many things I wish they would change, like the Moses model, the insistence on pretrib, etc. I hope this mess calls out from CCA and apart from CCCM a move to go beyond Chuck’s heritage and distinctives, back to the Word without presuppositions ( as much as possible). He is dead and God made it that way. It is disheartening to see the knee jerk reaction of CCA to Chuck being slighted but not to the Word being disregarded as “brutal” or any part without merit our not pertaining to Christ. Without Chuck CC is not the same, and Brian is right in some things but wrong in some biggies.

    I do know that Jesus taught topically, not
    v x v.
    It takes chutzpah to disdain teaching through the entire old testament, to declare that all 66 books aren’t necessary to teach. If finding Jesus in Leviticus “is a stretch”, perhaps BB and others are too stiff. He said he’s the fulfillment of the Torah – So perhaps the Spirit who raised Christ from the dead is being stifled by the pastors who will not let the Spirit have its work in crucifying the flesh by obviating, v x v if necessary, the law and prophecies which Christ fulfilled on our behalf. Weren’t these “written for our example SO THAT we might not fulfill the lusts of the flesh”? Don’t we have this “more sure word of prophecy”? Who gets to decide that God’s counsel means one’s prerogatives on a Sunday morning? It is clear, to me at least, that BB thinks that God’s sense means his sense.

    Quote:
    BB:
    “What I really think is, Sunday morning is obviously for most everybody, it’s the largest gathering so you have the most people there Sunday morning. So to me that’s our real opportunity to impart truth to the congregation on Sunday morning. So I feel really strongly that we should be teaching the New Testament on Sunday morning. We’re either teaching the Epistles which is how to live the Christian life or teaching through the gospels which is reminding everybody who Jesus is and what He did. So again, if God spoke to me and said teach Ezekiel on Sunday morning, obviously I would do that but I haven’t sensed that, you know. I really feel a strong conviction about teaching the New Testament on Sunday mornings. And doing it sermonically.”

    “Here’s my point.   I think you can preach the whole counsel of God without teaching all 66 books of the Bible   I don’t think that’s what Paul meant when he said he preached, I know Chuck meant that. Haha. That’s what Chuck did…”

    “Dontcha think the New Testament is the whole counsel of God?”

    Well, is the Old? This is what Christ’s deity was proved from! This a trick question and is disingenuous. Concealed and revealed. Can we be sure a person who undoes another man’s efforts in the pulpit is hearing the Holy Spirit? Perhaps Brian doesn’t sense the Spirit telling him to teach a more difficult book because he prefers, to stay in the NT?

    Quote:
    “You know the last 10 years of pastor Chuck’s life in ministry, um, probably almost every sermon on a Sunday was seriously a doom and a gloom message and it was basically the world’s going to hell but the Lord’s coming so just you know buckle your seat belt, hold on and we’re all gonna be out of here. And so once a month I would preach and I would literally get up and try to counter what was happening for the other 3 weeks because I could just look at the congregation and you know, month by month by month, the heads got whiter and whiter and whiter. We just were losing the younger generation to where when we came to the end, I mean it was hard to find a dark haired person in the congregation.”

    Quote:
    BB:
    “My goal is that people will know the important kind of key points of each book. Because I started thinking about– I really started think about the new person that comes in to church, whose never been through the Bible and I started thinking about, man, going like literally reading every word of every book of the Bible, that could be pretty brutal, especially for some.

    Daniel Fusco:
    And that’s in a sense where you could call it idolatry. Where you have to read every word. I mean I felt that way for a long, long time.”

    [BB can be heard giving assent to that opinion, this the second uncontested time Daniel Fusco referred to v x v as idolatry.]

    The newly saved person who comes in has as much faith as anyone, has as much of the Holy Spirit as anyone. To dumb it down for the sake of the youth (the subject of the panel) is creating milk addicts. Obviously there is need for logic, discernment and latitude. Delighting in the law of God is idolatry? So David and Asaph are in Hell ?

    “And what had happened is you know Chuck was so convinced about the rapture in his time and he was so frustrated with the direction of the world that he just couldn’t see any other solution. There’s we gotta be out of here but the younger generations sat there and they were like well what does that mean for us and I had a number of kids that would say to me thank you for your message today because it gave me hope that there’s actually something that could do for god. Cause what they were getting every week is you can’t do anything for god because the world’s going to hell and the rapture’s coming and we did it all for god already so don’t worry about it. Just hold on and we’re all gonna get out of ere and this drove the kids out of the church, seriously.

    And look, I believe in the rapture, I believer in the Second Coming but I think all of us should have learned by now that none of us know when that’s gonna happen and if we get up every week of if we’re constantly banging that drum of you know Ezekiel 38 and all of this stuff, what you’re indirectly sending a message to the younger gen. That there’s nothing left for you to do it’s all been done so just hold on tight the rapture’s coming and you know, my experiences is that they don’t want to hear that. They want to hear that we can do something for god just like you guys did. Our generation can do something, there’s a world to reach. There are people to touch there are missions to be accomplished, there are churches to be planted, and so I’m really you know kind of challenging you guys if you’re beating the prophecy drum, just tone it down because you don’t know.”

    Three things –
    1. BB’s sermons apparently gave the youth hope in their filthy rags.
    2. Sounds like “Where is the promise of His coming?” No, we don’t know, but neither did Abraham, Isaac or Jacob. Or, Or, Or … Well, Simeon and Anna didn’t know, but they saw the first advent of Christ Jesus. So did Noah. No, we don’t know, but we don’t stop talking about it either. Can you show me a verse where God said, stop taking about my promises in all my Word?
    3. That is the danger of distinguishing a movement by a presuppositional opinion like dispensational pretrib rapture. Why put your hand to the plow when the foreman keeps telling you the harvest is any second now?

    Thx for your time, Steve.
    Blessings

  36. Jerod says:

    Did not mean to say Noah saw the first advent of Jesus. Bad edit, =-O

  37. Josh the Beloved says:

    I hope Brian will teach in his own style what he feels comfortable with. Imo Brian is probably more of a pastor in the true sense than a teacher, he boring to listen too let’s be honest, but in get a sense he loves the sheep behind the scenes. Chuck was a teacher but his pastorating probably wasn’t his strong suite. Be that as it may, I can’t see any good of BB wearing Sauls Armor. Not saying Chuck is Saul far from it. Brian imo needs to be his own man, carve his own path, leave the old order behind, which it seems he is doing. We don’t need another Chuck Smith, God only made one. And ya know, church politics can be fun for a season, but this thing is sure going on for a while, and likely to go on for a while.

  38. Jerod says:

    Stephen

    My hangup is the denigration of the Old Testament, the denigration of prophecy.
    The whole counsel of God being divvied up according to our felt needs.

    If you can slog your way through my response to Steve Wright I go about my hangup in a little more detail.

  39. Erunner says:

    I have zero problems with BB doing things different. Other churches do things differently than CC and God is just as much there as He is in any CC. He’s not bound by a teaching style.

    Having been saved in 1976 at CCCM I’ve heard prophesy until I can’t take it any more. Every year or so something so dramatic has happened we need more books, tapes, CD’s, DVD packages, and conferences anywhere and everywhere simultaneously.

    The only one s who benefit are the ones making money and I’ll bet some have done quite well.

    If anything all of this has served to totally make me doubt the pre trib view because these guys have been wrong so often. Now of course this election has prophecy written all over it and I can only imagine the stuff we have to look forward to.

    If that wasn’t enough why oh why do some of these guys have to go after people who don’t agree with them? Look where that’s gotten us.

    BB toning down on the prophecy and only dealing with it as it comes up in Scripture is a huge relief and a breath of fresh air to me.

    I can’t be the only one that feels this way among what is called or the pew sitters or the sheep. Some like sheeple.

    It seems to me some are missing the meatier things and it’s ugly.

  40. Michael says:

    Frankly, I’m done with this as it is a combination of ignorance and slander.
    It’s quite simply people hearing what they want to hear without hearing what is actually being said and nuanced.

    What is the whole counsel of God?

    I like how the ESV Study Bible defines it.

    “The whole counsel of God refers to the entirety of God’s redemptive plan unfolded in Scripture.”

    There are individual chapters of the NT that contain within themselves the whole counsel of God and do so with much more clarity than any book of the OT.

    BB never said he wouldn’t teach the OT…he said he was keeping Sunday mornings in the NT where ministers of the New Covenant ought to.

    He said that Smith over emphasized prophecy…which he did, to the detriment of himself and his flock.
    BB just finished going through Revelation, however.

    This is a witch hunt…fueled by ignorance and wrath and it’s one of the more disgusting things I’ve seen in my blogging career.
    I have no dog in this hunt…but someone needs to care about truth.

  41. Bob Sweat says:

    Jerod

    Daniel Fusco used to be a regular on this blog, and I have always appreciated his thoughts and opinions. His use of the word idolatry is a bit harsh, but generally speaking, I have felt for years that an hour long verse be verse Bible teaching by some pastors has become like a god.

  42. Steve Wright says:

    Jerod, I did the courtesy of reading your long reply as you asked. It is clear that

    a) You did not read Carl’s letter (or choose to not believe or care)

    b) You never sat under Chuck Smith’s teaching on Sunday mornings and during the week (or choose to have forgotten how he did things)

    c) You did not listen to the Leviticus example I gave of Chuck in the OT (or chose to not care)

    I care about what is happening in a church, not what someone says in a panel discussion on the fly.

    Christians are acting like the recent election, when a candidate’s answer in some interview is grabbed onto and spun to make a point that candidate does not believe, There is no evidence for that belief, the candidate is on record in word and deed showing a different belief, but no matter – he/she spoke on the fly to CNN one morning and we are going to make campaign commercials and send emails out to fire up the other side.

    Why do they do that in elections? To influence support for the other side, by lying and demeaning one candidate for hopes of support of the other. All is fair I guess in politics..

    But THIS is the Church we are talking about. And men who supposedly have been walking with Jesus and serving God’s people for decades.

    Brian’s commitment to the people sounds EXACTLY like my commitment to the people, and if you think that I also have some lesser commitment to the entire 66 books, or the importance of prophesy, or the return of Christ, you would be greatly misinformed.

  43. Michael says:

    I’ve known Daniel since his youth…and while I don’t always agree with him…pretty often actually…I think he’s right on this.

    The verse by verse method (which has been done since Chrysostym) has been adopted as a point of distinction by some in CC and no one does it consistently…nor should they.

  44. Jerod Hatch says:

    I didn’t listen to the Leviticus recording because my point is made in the fact that it exists in the first place. V x v is not the issue.

    When you listen to the entire panel discussion, the line of questioning makes it obvious that Brians comments were intended to be made then and there.

    Brian said the whole counsel of God according to Chuck, with whom I agree, is the entire Bible. BB comes along and removes the monuments. Not that anyone should be beholden to Chuck, but to God and the example He has given us in Christ and the apostles.

    It would be slander if I took his quotes out of context. I guess he smears his own rep. regardless of track record by the statements he has made about himself heretofore.

    It would be disgusting if I were lying about his statements. But they are in print and on audio. What might be disgusting is the apparent relativity some apply to the definition of “sound doctrine” – remove a little here, remove a little there…

    He made these statements in 2 separate panels following the theme of backing off preaching the entirety of the Bible.

    I read Carl’s article.
    Carl is not Brian. The issue is with Brian’s opinions on Scripture, not Carl’s opinion on Brian’s opinion. The issue is his contradiction of what he says he plans to do with what examples and commands we are given in scripture, and Brian’s contradiction of his elder from the pulpit. I have raised no issue other than what BB has said, verbatim.

    If this is ignorance and slander then you have failed to correct the obvious neophyte by failing to directly answer the issue from scripture but instead responding with ad hominem and strawmen.

    As to someone else’s issue with prophecy:

    20-25% percent of scripture is prophecy. It comes up often enough that “toning it down” would be muffling the word. This is why Sandy suggested we let scripture speak for itself.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LnLDMqPBeKQ

  45. Steve Wright says:

    My next comment will be different depending on the answer so I ask first, are you a Sr. Pastor of a church responsible for the Sunday morning message each week?

  46. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Doesn’t this in fighting within a denomination just make your skin crawl?

  47. EricL says:

    Thank you, Steve Wright, for taking the time to reason with the doubters, deniers, and overly suspicious. You represent the CC movement with integrity and reason.

  48. EricL says:

    Don’t worry MLD, I don’t think it will turn into a Thirty Years’ War.

  49. Bob Sweat says:

    MLD

    This is more fun than watching Lutherans slug it out. 🙂

  50. Bob Sweat says:

    What Eric said!

  51. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The funny thing is when Lutherans ‘slug it out’ at least we have both a say and a vote in it.

  52. covered says:

    Don’t look now, but it looks like we may have a kool aid drinker here…

    On another note, Steve, I appreciate how you are handling yourself.

  53. Jerod Hatch says:

    No
    I’m the obvious ignorant neophyte

  54. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Lutherans know how to do this – when Seminex walked out of the seminary.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFeLZOGbJnA

    45 of 50 professors walked out with many students … and they were the ones teaching heresy. (Read – The Battle for the Bible bu Harold Lindsell as he describes it)

    https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Bible-Harold-Lindsell/dp/0310276810

  55. Michael says:

    I will say again that despite our many conflicts I deeply appreciate the way Steve has addressed this.

    There is so much more I would like to say,but cannot at this point.
    I will simply say that this is the most dishonest, contemptible smear campaign I’ve ever witnessed and a blight on the name of Christ.

  56. Jerod Hatch says:

    Steve

    No

    (Best post yet)

  57. Jerod Hatch says:

    Michael

    You keep saying that, but what have I addressed that wasn’t said already by Brodersen himself.

    It’s a smear campaign of the truth is muddied. Where have I done this?

  58. Steve Wright says:

    The funny thing about prophecy and our CC beliefs (in the context of these silly accusations).

    A faithful emphasis on New Testament will Scripture will cover in great detail the many prophecies our Lord fulfilled when He walked the earth – complete with their Old Testament references. Likewise, there will be occasion to speak of “things to come” in for example the Thessalonian letters and the occasional verses interspersed throughout. And then there is Revelation, which Brian just finished teaching (per Carl)

    But so much of the prophecy detailed in the Old Testament that was not fulfilled in Christ 2000 years ago will all, ALL, happen after we Christians are no longer here on this earth. (Again, I speak to the CC beliefs on the rapture, so control yourself MLD and argue eschatology in Open Blogging if you desire 🙂 )

    I have almost taught the entire Bible at CCLE in basically 9 years. I have a couple years worth to go because I do teach every book, and only in rare cases do I summarize or not read the verse(s) of the actual text.

    But I certainly understand pastoral priority too – which is why it may take me four or five weeks to go through one chapter of Matthew on a Sunday morning, and I will go through most Old Testament books (even reading each verse) on a 2-3 chapter a message pace on Wednesday nights. We don’t have a Sunday night service. (Given all of my teachings are free online, one can listen for themselves to the difference)

    This is point #1 of a larger 3-point discussion on this issue.

  59. Michael says:

    Jerod,

    Not to be mean, but in my world, you barely exist.
    I’m dealing with this with churches internationally, dealing with the real people involved, and with facts that you cannot and unfortunately will not ever know.
    It’s that scope of which I’m speaking…you are just a pebble of noise on a very large pond.

  60. Erunner says:

    Notes from the peanut gallery! 🙂

    I’ve always admired Steve. Having been around as long I have I’ve seen folks take it on the chin (for lack of a better term) quite a bit. Steve hasn’t bailed and has stood by his conviction no matter how unpopular that may have been. His current posts simply show me he’s a man who’s invested in his movement.

    The pressure on all of us is immense in the sense we cling to an unchangeable Gospel while the world laughs and mocks us while some in the church find it necessary to alter the gospel to provide a wider tent.

  61. Erunner says:

    Steve, I left a post further up where I expressed displeasure with how the prophecy thing has evolved through the years to the point of almost driving me away entirely.

    How exactly do you differ from the extremes that are out there? What do you see as a proper way to teach the pre trib view without the extremes we see today? Thanks.

  62. Jerod Hatch says:

    LOL.

    Not to be mean, but…

    Steve,

    Never accused you of doing anything less

    You and other CC’s have a linear view of eschatology?

    Is it Bb’s belief in an imminent return pretrib that allows him to tone down portions of scripture which he believes prophesy of that very thing?

    Thank you for being as kind as you can with this vapor of a pebble in this, such a large pond as Michael’s.

    I knew that appeal to authority was gonna come from somewhere 😉

  63. Steve Wright says:

    Point #2 – How Chuck Smith ministered is EXACTLY the issue because the CCA is continually referencing Chuck and his ministry philosophy as our CC DNA. It is really quite an unappealing tactic because it implies that if you disagree with the CCA’s point of view right now then you are really disagreeing with Chuck Smith.

    That is why the resignations from the council are relevant (as I noted yesterday). Apparently there are others with disagreements, Chuck’s Timothy’s.

    That is why HOW Chuck taught is also relevant, and those of us who sat under him for many years in the pews know how that was. For more years than some (most) on the CCA.

    Anyone who knows me or my input on this blog KNOWS my love for Chuck and the tremendous influence he had on my life and ministry. So remember that as I share this.

    Chuck used Sunday mornings to talk about whatever he wanted to talk about in the Bible. The verse by verse took place Sunday night. Sometimes he would give a good exposition of a small portion of the text in more detail than Sunday night would afford. Other times he used the text to jump to something almost completely unrelated to the text, but still a solid Bible message. He RARELY taught in any depth on the Old Testament on Sunday mornings, even if he was in the middle of the OT books for Sunday night. He would use Sunday mornings to preach Christ, the teachings and examples of the apostles and so forth. And sometimes he just wanted to talk about the majesty of God’s creation or the odds that Jesus could accidentally fulfill the prophecies about Him (this was the famous silver dollars in Texas illustration which I heard at least half a dozen or so times on Sundays). I never once bothered to get a copy of a Sunday morning message – but I had the entire Bible on Sunday nights (5000 series) on tape.

    And sometimes Chuck would use the Sunday morning message to talk about the hope of the rapture, even when the text did not call for it. I was obviously not at CCCM in the last years of his ministry to say, one way or the other, how much of an emphasis he was giving to it in his Sunday messages then, but I do believe the reports from those who were there that all the younger people were leaving the church about when they graduated high school, because they had no connection to the main body once they left the high school group, and the Sunday morning message was more often than not, irrelevant to these eager young believers wanting to make a difference for the kingdom. When Brian cancelled the Sunday morning high school and had them sit in the sanctuary, he was doing something we have always done at CCLE. 7th grade and above, sit with your parents in the main service.

    Thus, when one dismisses my Chuck Leviticus message by saying “it’s existence proves the point” they close their eyes deliberately because hearing how Chuck taught these books, then listening to Brian and his point of view, leads to the conclusion that there is not a dime’s worth of difference between the two men and their handling of the OT..

    And why it is pretty pathetic of the CCA to use Chuck’s name and legacy as a weapon.

  64. Erunner says:

    Wow! I didn’t realize the high school kids weren’t allowed in the main sanctuary.

  65. Steve Wright says:

    Erunner – There were high school youth groups that met on Sunday mornings. I don’t know that the kids were not “allowed” but the natural progression was the childrens ministry, to Jr. High, to High School and thus you could have been raised in the church and never once gone to a Sunday morning service.

    So there was no connection. When high school ended, the kids might as well go to any other church (or none at all)….

  66. Josh the Beloved says:

    If there is no pre rapture, i can only imagine the anger and feelings of betrayal at Chuck from multitudes in CC. And that many in the CC movement possibly will be part of that great falling away. Because Chuck doubled down, and didn’t teach them just in case, this is how to survive during the tribulation.

  67. Erunner says:

    I guess they had their reasons. It just seems to me the main sanctuary is the place for teens to be. I just can’t see an upside to it. That could explain an exodus of young people if that’s what happened.

  68. Erunner says:

    That’s sobering Josh. I would hope people wouldn’t ditch the faith over possible faulty teaching on the rapture.

  69. dusty says:

    Steve w, you seem to be taking a lot of hits….how can i pray for you?

  70. Steve Wright says:

    Point #3 (and why I asked about being a pastor)

    I got saved without any preacher, any church, or Christian witnessing to me. I read the Bible, and God worked through the word in the Spirit to bring me to Himself. Only then did I set foot in a Christian church and God in an incredible sovereign way immediately brought me to Calvary Costa Mesa when I had never heard of Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith, Harvest Crusades or any such thing. And despite the church being 25 miles away from where I lived.

    So I learned early on the power of Jesus Christ in God’s word working through the Holy Spirit. And that as a pastor, I needed to do my role which was to maximize that time in God’s word each Sunday morning to present and teach it in such a way as to allow God to drive home the point of the text and how it applies to one’s life.

    The word brings comfort, conviction, guidance, edification (and so much more) to Christians and of course brings salvation to the lost. What is incredible is God can do with one message in one passage a variety of things in the variety of individuals that are gathered there that Sunday. God is in charge. I need to do my part to decrease so He can increase which means Steve’s priorities do not exist. Any joke, illustration, or current event I might use had BETTER be about most effectively bringing God’s word that morning to the people.

    As a pastor, I know of so many challenges, hurts, questions, issues in the lives of the people, and I know all of them have their share even if I am not privy. I know that Christ is the answer and I know God works through the word in preaching to minister to His people (and on Sundays it is mostly the saved in the congregation and my emphasis is to them – which by the way is what Chuck taught and modeled).

    I know God’s word deals with ALL of life’s issues. Just last Sunday I was in the passage of Jesus on divorce in Matthew. Think that is an issue in the lives of the people? Maybe more relevant than talking the CNN current events to show whether Magog is an Islamic Middle East neighbor of Israel in alliance with Iran who is determined to destroy the nation of Israel?

    As a pastor, I also have a burden to prepare people NOW for that time in life when inevitably a strong trial will come their way. Even a crisis of faith. Like Jesus said in concluding the Sermon on the Mount “when the storms came” – because they will come to all people. I also am burdened for the persecuted saints worldwide and seek that balance that we are mostly blessed from REAL persecution but we are certainly not immune from it ever coming to the USA either (or that the rapture will save us before it hits)

    The world has been going to hell for over 6000 years, so why should today be any different. Yet, the Lord tarries and men and women of God go on to do great things in the name of Jesus, as His witnesses, until He calls them home. I want to be used by God in some way, through my ministry, preaching and pastoral care, in the lives of the people.

    The Sunday service and message is NOT Bible College. I have taught at Bible College and I have been a student as well and know the difference. Likewise, it is simply NOT the same as a midweek study. I have taught midweek studies for the better part of 2 decades. For starters, (and this is true in every church in America, including Costa Mesa under Chuck) – you will have far fewer people in the midweek, and those folks already will be more knowledgeable about Scripture than the average attendee on Sunday.

    The pastor is a gifted office of the Lord in the Church “to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ”.

    From everything I am reading, it sounds like Brian understands this quite well. Good for him. Good for the church he leads. I too join him in focusing almost exclusively on the New Testament books on Sunday mornings – and teaching the text of those books that MORNING (unlike Chuck Smith) as most relevant to minister, feed, and grow God’s sheep as His undershepherd to the Great Shepherd.

  71. Steve Wright says:

    go on to do great things in the name of Jesus
    ———————————
    I meant to add..the great things can “simply” be working hard, supporting a family (or oneself), raising children, graduating from your school, being a faithful spouse, a good neighbor and citizen etc.

    Those are the great things that matter.

  72. Steve Wright says:

    That’s sweet of you, Dusty. Any prayers for my personal family and the church family are always appreciated. Provision, protection, guidance. Thank you.

  73. Kevin H says:

    Thanks, Steve, for taking the time and effort to speak to these issues.

  74. Jerod Hatch says:

    Steve

    Wow

    Thank you for such an in depth response and posting it so well written.

    So, then you say the issue is how Chuck taught…
    Did Chuck believe you can teach the whole counsel of God without all 66 books, or with all the NT but ignoring some of the OT? Cause if there is not a dime’s worth of difference between the two mens’ styles, their opinion must be virtually the same regarding that.

  75. dusty says:

    Ebrother, at our cc children were Not Allowed in the ” sanctuary” mothers were chastised and insulted for this.

  76. dusty says:

    Steve, im sure i met you when i came to ccle under the previous pastor who i still love and miss dearly.

  77. dusty says:

    I miss puzzletop too….he was a good friend

  78. Potatoehead says:

    Steve has integrity for not giving into the BS that “pastors at CC have a lot of issues to deal with so we should not look to closely at them and their actions.”

    I marvel at the cloak of secrecy code that is prevalent in a lot of CC old timer pew warmers.

    Some bad men within the CC structure have gotten away with a lot of evil because after all we should not take notice.

    Steve has shown that he is a solid man of truth and I love that over the years he has shown us that he does his due diligence and really does tell it like it is.

    I myself sat under Chuck’s pulpit from 1967 to around 1994 or so when Jeff Smith invited me to leave “and go start your own church if your discontent with how we do things here.”

    That is how they handle anyone who started to ask questions.

    I should have left years prior to that invite to leave.

    But it was the home of my spiritual birth.

    I only went back once after that to talk with Chuck.

    We both had a great experience in the Lord for about a total of 4 minutes.

    Ye Steve is incredible for even bucking the status Quo and showing up in here and sharing.

    In my opinion he has done much good in here for a lot of people.

    He is one man of God within the CC system that I am surely respectful of.

    He listens to the Lord and not man for sure.

    How he ended up in Lake E is a real mystery to me.

    A very challenging place for any pastor for sure.

    He has a lot of experience under his belt and it shows.

  79. dusty says:

    Potatohead has a lot of wisdom

  80. Erunner says:

    dusty, mothers should never be spoken to in a disrespectful way. I do know there are churches that have Sunday School for kids up to about sixth grade with the idea they learn at their level and the little ones won’t disturb the study.

    Yet there are many churches who believe church should be a family experience and so everyone is in the sanctuary. Maybe there’s a place for new moms who must feed their baby?

    Both setups can work well but I can’t understand why teens aren’t required to be in the sanctuary. Not only to learn but they can even contribute to what is happening in the church.

  81. dusty says:

    Missing all the ladies…..hardly ever see them anymore. 🙁

  82. dusty says:

    Ebrother, i think all children can contribute. If the church is too large to allow children…it is too large. 🙂

  83. Erunner says:

    dusty, I don’t think it’s the size of the church (although I prefer smaller) I think it’s one of those things people disagree on. Believe me our two oldest Grands have said some things that to me were Heaven sent! 🙂

  84. dusty says:

    It is nice to see paige covered and em and john…love reading your posts

  85. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I remember when I was going back and forth to a Lutheran church and attending and teaching 3 classes a week at a large CC – I was amazed at the life it brought to the congregation to have small kids of all ages in the church service – even being brought up front to have the pastor speak to them.

    When I brought that up to leadership at the CC, that we should bring the kids into the service, the reply … hang on … ‘it would interfere with our video presentation.’

    Gotta love it.

  86. Potatoehead says:

    Early on I was told that Chuck believed that Satan could possibly use small children and animals to distract people if they were allowed in the service.

    I have seen this take place in home Bible studies, he may have been correct in his belief about this.

    Today it seems to be gardeners with Leaf blowers…LOL

    The Vineyard let Kids into its services and people were allowed to get up and move around.

    I liked that.

  87. Victor says:

    For whatever reason, my son no longer wanted to go to the kindergarten-6th children’s group. He went through both the classes for 3s and 4s. He stays with me in the sanctuary, which is fine by me (truthfully, this probably has nothing to do with the Sunday School classes, but rather is for personal reasons). The CC I go to doesn’t have strict rules, though I think high junior high schoolers and up should not be in separate services (I’m thinking back to my own experience). If I were actually told that he couldn’t be there, I’d walk out

    As for the split, I’ve seen the accusations of BB going contemplative, but then I saw a copy of Jesus Calling for Kids last Sunday in the bookstore. It’s at a CC pastored by one of the relatives of a man on the CCA council.

  88. Potatoehead says:
  89. Jerod Hatch says:

    The CC bookstore seems to be a nebulous void of authors aligning with CC distinctives, interesting outliers, and someone’s emergent leaning order they never picked up.

    As far as kids and babies, my CC encourages parents to use the Mother’s room for infants, the nursery, Sunday School. But every time I visit another church and hear the fidgeting feet, the wimpers and giggles of littluns it brings joy to my heart. Families belong in service together.

  90. In the world of Decision Theology churches, it is possible to be in fear of interruption by little kids. After all, information download is the purpose of such services – give enough so the seeker can then make a decision.
    In contrast, a church service where the Holy Spirit is at work actually converting people through God’s word, no child outburst will interrupt.

  91. Steve Wright says:

    I taught on Matthew 19: 1-12 last Sunday. And as always, I taught the text.

    That meant divorce, adultery, fornication, porneia (the Greek word for fornication), sexual intercourse, marital vows of faithfulness, celibacy and 3 different types of eunuchs.I did so as discreet as possible and have no desire to do the shock-pastor routine. But these things mean what they mean too.

    There are reasons I prefer children younger than 7th grade to be in the childrens ministry and reasons I prefer 7th grade and above to be in the service listening to exactly what I am teaching.

    However, if a parent still wants to bring their small child into service, that is their call, and they can handle any awkward questions on the drive home. We don’t ban anyone. They have an alternative but there is a freedom in dealing with sensitive topics with an audience old enough to understand them too.

  92. pstrmike says:

    we allow kids in the service as well. I remember some friends were shocked that we have everyone together during worship and that we have communion during that time. Their kids had never taken communion, so the mom quickly explained to them what was going on and they took communion together as a family for the first time.

    We have children’s classes and youth after worship, but they are free to remain in the sanctuary if they please. I I am teaching some delicate topics, I am able to describe these things in a way that is over young children’s heads but any young teen should be able to grab.

    We don’t do bookstores, although we do a book order from time to time, and everyone gets to pay wholesale.

    I’m good with what Brian is doing. The criticism directed toward him is non-nonsensical and control driven. I’ll let Brian concern himself with pastoring his own church, and I will concern myself with the church I have been called to teach.

  93. Jerod Hatch says:

    I directed a children’s Christmas play that made a song of the Ten Commandments. #8 was an interesting lesson in discreetness

  94. EJ says:

    Pause for station identification –

    Anointing VS Respectability

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkfTgGRSKNw

    Chuck Smith was a campaign manager for this christian minister back during the healing revival of the 1950’s according to wikipedia. This message sure can apply here in these posts.

  95. JD says:

    When Moses died, Joshua replaced him; not a group of long-time tribal leaders banding together to claim what they think should be theirs.

  96. MP says:

    EJ,
    Good one.

    JD,
    Spot on.

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