On Being Wrong

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61 Responses

  1. Em Wegemer says:

    The word was out in the medical community that these inoculation had dangerous side effects. My nurse daughter refused to get the shot and was fired.
    Was Michael wrong? Dunno……

  2. Michael says:

    Em,

    All I know is that those who were fired are desperately needed back on the job today…and should be.

  3. Nonnie says:

    I lived in England, when Covid measures hit. We were truly LOCKED down! Not suppose to be outside more than 15 minutes and stay in our own garden. For the first week, I complied with everything I was told, then I started seeing the adverts on TV:, started seeing the talking heads on TV in the UK and USA reading from the same script, but trying to make it seem like they were talking to us “from the heart.” I started seeing adverts telling us to “stay home, protect the grandparents, stay safe, be a hero for your community”…..with the melancholy music in the background. Then it hit me. This is exactly the same kind of adverts that my civics teacher showed us in high school back in the 1960’s. He was showing us films of how the Nazis, and the USSR manipulated their people into believing in what they wanted them to believe and to give up their common sense and obey, without questions. It was then I started questioning. I certainly didn’t want to do anything to harm anyone else, and I wanted to be wise, but I was questioning….the more I saw, the more I read, the more I knew that something insidious was going on. A horrible virus…yes!!! But even more horrible was governments stopping doctors from using protocols they thought would help their patients. How does that make sense? Stopping doctors from using medications on people they found effective in many cases! Then I saw government big wigs using this virus to make their friends and families millions/billions investing or getting contracts for their companies in PPE, building contracts for emergency hospitals (that were never used), different NGO’s getting grants to do studies, etc, etc. I’m speaking of England, because we saw it happening, but I have no doubts the same was happening here in the USA. Closing down small businesses, but allowing liquor stores to stay open, large grocery stores that sold clothing, etc. to stay open. Seeing people being arrested for sitting on a park bench for more than 15 minutes….alone….no one near her. Being told to stay home and protect granny and then seeing the government forcing covid sick patients in nursing homes and when the children of clients in the nursing home want to take their parent out to protect them from the covid patients, they are forbidden and even arrested! I saw someone very close to me have to leave their job because they already had a strong case of covid and did not want to be vaccinated. Their medical training had taught them about natural immunity. This person had already seen the adverse effects on their co-workers of the vaccine and didn’t see any logical reason to take it. People who questioned were called, on this blog, conspiracy nuts, MAGA nuts. (I Never voted for Trump, never will) ., we were told we could not possibly be loving our neighbours as Christians, if we didn’t take that vaccine. It was insulting and demeaning. I really appreciate you speaking for truth Michael. I know you struggled over this and have suffered because of it. Thank you for your integrity on this issue.

  4. Michael says:

    I still struggle over this because there is so much to be uncertain about, no matter how much research I do.

    Some things seem clearer now…but I still have no idea what I would do if I caught Covid today.

  5. Nonnie says:

    I would hope you are already taking Vit. C, D, Zinc, Quercetin, and multivitamins. We took ivermectin, when we had it, and felt rough for 1 day, then like a minor flu for 5 days. In our 70’s and fine. Ivermectin is a safe drug used for years and even if it doesn’t help, it doesn’t hurt anyone. So no reason not to try it. We ordered it from a company in India, called Medicine Villa. You can google it. We have it on hand for any cases of covid that we may get. Of course we now know that many doctors were using Ivermectin and seeing excellent results (if given early on…not in late stages of Covid) , but these doctors were threatened to lose their license or banned from social media.

  6. Michael says:

    The family used all of that protocol except Ivermectin.
    I can’t find a reliable study that affirms that it is effective, but there is a lot of anecdotal affirmation.

    I’d probably go down the same path they did…

  7. Nonnie says:

    Here is the article…
    Ivermectin is safe and effective: the Evidence:
    Decades of use with nearly four billion doses to humans preceded recent use with COVID patients. From the chapter ‘Ivermectin sends COVID to lockdown,’ in my book The Defeat Of COVID.
    Ivermectin is on the World Health Organization (WHO) List of Essential Medicines and is approved by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA). This well-tolerated but potent anti-parasitic medicine has been prescribed billions of times in its 36-year history against a wide range of parasites. It is a drug in the avermectin family, so named because those compounds are produced by the soil organism Streptomyces avermitilis. It has also been studied and used against a wide range of viruses especially over the last decade, and there is evidence of potent antiviral effects against Influenza A and over a dozen other viruses tested. [309]
    In a meta-analysis of 63 studies of ivermectin versus COVID-19 in humans, 100% of these have shown positive results. Studies were from all continents except Antarctica. Considered individually, 29 of those studies were found to be statistically significant regarding use of ivermectin alone. Over the 63 studies in meta-analysis, pooled effects showed 69% improvement in early treatment, and prophylactic use showed 86% improvement. Of those studies in the meta-analysis that were peer-reviewed, overall improvement in early treatment was found to be 70% (64% in randomized controlled trials), and 86% of those in which ivermectin was used prophylactically showed improvement (84% in randomized controlled trials).
    Mortality from COVID-19 over all time periods of delay in treatment was 76% improved over controls (69% in randomized controlled trials), whereas mortality was improved 84% in early treatment of COVID-19 (82% in randomized controlled trials). Forty studies were excluded from the meta-analysis for complicating factors or insufficient detail reported, and these also showed 100% positive results.
    It is estimated that the likelihood of an ineffective treatment showing such positive results as the above results in the 63 studies in the meta-analysis to date is exceedingly small. That probability is estimated to be one in one trillion. [310] The overall results of the meta-analysis were not only found to be “overwhelmingly positive,” but also “very consistent, and very insensitive to potential selection criteria, effect extraction rules, and/or bias evaluation.” The data in the meta-analysis are as of date of this article, and are continually updated as new studies are reported.
    The first clinical trial of ivermectin in COVID-19 patients was an observational study in four Florida hospitals from March to May 2020. Even in patients with severe pulmonary involvement, mortality was 38.8% in the treatment group vs 80.7% in controls, and this group showed the strongest mortality difference from controls, which raised the possibility of ivermectin also being available as a salvage or rescue treatment. [311]
    In a randomized controlled trial, patients given ivermectin were 8 times more likely to be medically released than those in the placebo group. This was even though the average age and number of comorbidities were later found to be somewhat higher in the experimental group than in the control group. [312]
    The African continent has had remarkably low incidence of COVID-19, particularly equatorial African countries. It may be helpful to look at African countries where ivermectin has been used commonly for decades against the onchocerciasis that it has been prescribed for, to observe population-wide effects. In this population comparison, risk of COVID-19 death was found to be 88.2% lower and morbidity 85.7% lower in 31 countries where onchocerciasis is endemic and ivermectin is commonly used than in 22 countries where neither is the case, even though the latter group of countries has a higher life expectancy, 66 years vs 61 years. [313]
    Ivermectin, for all its power against viruses, is among the safest of medicines that are in long-term and widespread use. [314] There are no known serious drug-related adverse events. [315] Again, it is commonly taken by the populations of 31 African countries for effect against endemic parasites. Dosing has been given as a single annual dose of 150 mcg/kg against filariasis. There have been very few serious adverse events reported over more than 30 years of use. 37 of approximately 14,000 patients treated in Ghana had symptomatic posture hypotension, associated with fainting or sweating or tachycardia. These were treated with corticosteroids. [316] This Lancet study determined its safety in pregnant women, and the risk of fetal damage was not greater than in control women’s fetuses. [317]
    However, despite this safety data going back 3 decades, the US FDA has alleged, “Any use of ivermectin for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19 should be avoided as its benefits and safety for these purposes have not been established.” The FDA offered no supporting evidence for their claim. [318] One concerning risk is that ivermectin is sold over the counter for veterinary use, and if people feel desperate to use it to ward off COVID-19, they might break off too large a piece from a large horse pill. For this reason, it is much better to consult a healthcare provider for ivermectin use and dosing. To further enhance safety, liposomal ivermectin carriers have been developed. When these were used against Dengue fever, cytotoxicity was reduced up to 5 times, absorption was faster and in vivo efficacy was improved. [319]
    Despite the spectacular worldwide effect profile, of excellent effect against COVID-19, with 0.26% observed minor side effects, and its use across several continents, ivermectin is widely shunned and ignored in western Europe and in the US. Here is a brief synopsis of how that came to be.
    Ivermectin was invented in Japan in 1975 as an anti-parasitic drug by Satoshi Omura, a Kitasato University professor emeritus, which earned Dr. Omura the Nobel Prize in Biochemistry. Ivermectin turned out to be quite effective against a broad spectrum of parasites. The drug was so effective in eliminating a range of parasitic infections, and at very low cost, about $0.10 US, that 3.7 billion doses have been delivered to much of the world’s population since its invention. [320]
    A cell culture study in April 2020 showed a 5000 times reduction in SARS-CoV-2 from one dose over 48 hours, compared to control samples. [321] Several Latin American countries, Egypt and India soon began to use it for COVID-19, and then South Africa and several European countries as well. However, resistance remained strong in the US and western Europe, following the vocal disapproval of The World Health Organization (WHO), The US National Institutes of Health (NIH), the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the European Medicine Agency (EMA). These agencies all expressed disapproval of ivermectin for use with COVID-19 patients. Even after more than 20 randomized controlled clinical trials showed promising effect without adverse reactions, many western countries have still not adopted its use.
    Caly, Druce, et al illustrate the IMP inhibition as follows:
    Epoch Times Photo
    Figure © L Caly, J Druce, et al., Endnote 321
    Social media companies censored ivermectin research. Even when the WHO commissioned and reported a meta-analysis of ivermectin, it was censored by YouTube. Only negative commentaries were permitted in western media. [322]
    How does ivermectin send SARS-CoV-2 to lockdown? There are a number of mechanisms by which components of SARS-CoV-2 need to stay mobile and active in order to replicate, and thus to spread throughout the human body. It turns out that ivermectin binds several of these, which inactivates the virus. Let’s look at exactly what happens to bind or to lock down SARS-CoV-2.
    RNA-dependent RNA-polymerase (RdRp) is one of the main enzymes used by SARS-CoV-2 to achieve RNA replication. It is required for viral genome replication, and therefore it is helpful if a nutrient or drug can act on it as an obstacle in some way. 173 drugs were tested in this study for their ability to bind RdRp (making it unavailable or inactive), including two examined in this book, hydroxychloroquine and vitamin C, although vitamin C was also found to have relatively high binding energy for RdRp in this study. Of all the drugs tested, ivermectin was found to bind RdRp with higher binding any energy than any other drug. [323]
    One strategy against SARS-CoV-2, as well as other endemic and pandemic RNA viruses, has been to interfere with transport of viruses into a host cell’s nucleus. Ivermectin has been shown to accomplish this by binding, destabilizing and inhibiting the protein IMP alpha/beta1. When this protein is inhibited, viruses are unable to enter a cell’s nucleus, and therefore unable to replicate. Decreased infection results. IMP alpha/beta 1 has been inhibited in SARS-CoV-2 entry into nuclei by ivermectin. [324] Previously, it has been observed that ivermectin inhibited that same protein from entry of other RNA viruses, giving it a broad-spectrum antiviral effect. [325] [326] [327]
    It turns out that ivermectin not only binds tightly to RdRp on SARSCoV-2, and IMP alpha/beta1; it also strongly binds the spike protein on SARS-CoV-2. This particular spike protein is trimeric, meaning it has 3 subunits which vary in amino acid sequences or other ways. It was observed that ivermectin binds all three of the SARS-CoV-2 subunits, both the structural S2 subunit, as well as both of the two functional S1 subunits. [328] This binding of all 3 subunits of the trimeric spike protein may be considered a trifecta of fortunate results of ivermectin in favor of the human host and in opposition to the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
    Ivermectin has different mechanisms against parasites, already a miraculous healing drug for that use alone through much of the world’s population. However, now that we learn of its tremendous effect in binding both RdRp and all three trimers of the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, we are certainly fortunate to have this medicine in our arsenal against COVID-19. It is inexpensive, and full COVID-19 treatment of an individual, from first dose till last needed can be less than one US dollar. Ivermectin is therefore available to even the poorest communities in the world. Ivermectin is being compared to the discovery of penicillin in its enormous impact, and perhaps was one of the greatest discoveries of the 20th century. [329] The fact that this tremendously effective, safe and low-cost antiviral drug is not as thoroughly known to the world as penicillin is a chasm of inexcusable and deadly ignorance that the COVID era is giving the world an opportunity to correct.
    Reposted from the author’s Substack
    References
    309 K Sharun, K Dhama, et al. Ivermectin, a new candidate therapeutic against SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19. May 30 2020. Ann Clin Microbiol Antimicrob. 19 (23). https://annclinmicrob.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12941-020-00368-w
    310 Covid Analysis. Ivermectin is effective for COVID-19: Real-time meta-analysis of 49 studies. Nov 26 2020. Updated Mar 31 2021. https://ivmmeta.com/
    311 J Rajter, M Sherman, et al. Use of ivermectin is associated with lower mortality in hospitalized patients with coronavirus disease 2019: The ivermectin in COVID nineteen study. Jan 2021. Chest. 159 (1). 85-92. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012369220348984
    312 R Chahla, L Ruiz, et al. Ivermectin repurposing for COVID-19 treatment of outpatients in mild stage in primary health care centers. Mar 30 2021. MedRxiv. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.29.21254554v1
    313 H Tanioka, S Tanioka, et al. Why COVID-19 is not so spread in Africa: How does Ivermectin affect it? Mar 26 2021. MedRXiv. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.26.21254377v1.full-text
    314 T Jabeen, M Khader, et al. A review on the anti-parasitic drug ivermectin for various viral infections and possibilities of using it for novel severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2: New hope to treat coronavirus disease – 2019. Jun 2020. Asian J Pharm Clin Res. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343742900_A_REVIEW_ON_THE _ANTIPARASITIC_DRUG_IVERMECTIN_FOR_VARIOUS_VIRAL_INFECTIONS_AND_POSSIBILITIES_OF_USING_IT_FOR_NOVEL_SEVERE_ACUTE_RESPIRATORY_SYNDROME_CORONAVIRUS_2_NEW_HOPE_TO_TREAT_CORONAVIRUS_DI SEASE
    315 J Sanz-Navarro, C Feal, et al. Treatment of human scabies with oral ivermectin. Sep 2017. Actas Dermos. 108 (7). 643-649. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28385424/
    316 J Remme, R Baker, et al. A community trial of ivermectin in the onchocerciasis focus of Asubende, Ghana. I: Effect on the microfilarial reservoir and the transmission of Onchocerca volvulus. Sep 1989. Trop Med Parasitol. 40 (3). 367-374. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2617046/
    317 M Pacqué, B Muñoz, et al. Pregnancy outcome after inadvertent ivermectin treatment during community-based distribution. Dec 15 1990. Lancet. 336 (8729). 1486-1489. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1979100/
    318 US FDA. FAQ: COVID-19 and ivermectin intended for animals. Dec 16 2020. https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/product-safetyinformation/faq-covid-19-and-ivermectin-intended-animals
    319 R Croci, E Bottaro, et al. Liposomal systems as nanocarriers for the antiviral agent ivermectin. May 8 2016. Int J Biomater. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4875998/
    320 M Yagisawa, P Foster, et al. Global trends in clinical studies of ivermectin in COVID-19. Mar 10 2021. Japanese J Antibiotics. 74 (1). 44-95. http://jjacontents.wdc-jp.com/pdf/JJA74/74-1-open/74-1_44-95.pdf
    321 L Caly, J Druce, et al. The FDA-approved drug ivermectin inhibits the replication of SARS-CoV-2 in vitro. Jun 2020. Antiviral Res. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011?via%3Dihub
    322 M Turkia. A timeline of ivermectin-related events in the COVID-19 pandemic. Mar 2021. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350496335_A_Timeline_of_Iver mectin-Related_Events_in_the_COVID-19_Pandemic
    323 I Udofia, K Gbayo, et al. In silico studies of selected multi-drug targeting against 3CLpro and nsp12 RNA-dependent RNA-polymerase proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and SARS-CoV. Mar 25 2021. Network Mod Anal Health Inf Bioinf. 10 (22). https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13721-02100299-2
    324 L Caly, J Druce, et al. The FDA-approved drug ivermectin inhibits the replication of SARS-CoV-2 in vitro. Jun 2020. Antiviral Res. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011?via%3Dihub
    325 M Tay, J Fraser, et al. Nuclear localization of dengue (DENV) 1-4 nonstructural protein 5; protection against all 4 DENV serotypes by the inhibitor ivermectin. Sep 2013. Antivir Res. 99 (3). 301-306. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166354213001599
    326 K Wagstaff, H Sivakumaran, et al. Ivermectin is a specific inhibitor of importin alpha/beta-mediated nuclear import able to inhibit replication of HIV-1 and dengue virus. May 1 2012. J Biochem. 443 (3). 851-856. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3327999/
    327 S Yang, S Atkinson, et al. The broad spectrum antiviral ivermectin targets the host nuclear transport importin alpha/beta1 heterodimer. May 2020. Antivir Res. 104760. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166354219307211
    328 A Choudhury, N Das, et al. Exploring the binding efficacy of ivermectin against the key proteins of SARS-CoV-2 pathogenesis: an in silico approach. Future Vir. Mar 25 2021. https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342
    329 M Yagisawa, P Foster, et al. Global trends in clinical studies of ivermectin in COVID-19. Mar 10 2021. Japanese J Antibiotics. 74 (1). 44-95. http://jjacontents.wdc-jp.com/pdf/JJA74/74-1-open/74-1_44-95.pdf
    Views expressed in this article are the opinions of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Epoch Times. Epoch Health welcomes professional discussion and friendly debate. To submit an opinion piece, please follow these guidelines and submit through our for

  8. Michael says:

    Nonnie,

    This is another difference…I wouldn’t believe anything I read in the Epoch Times.

    We all have different sources…

  9. Nonnie says:

    Perhaps because they are the only place to print this evidence. I remember when anyone who questioned the FDA and CDC were conspiracy wanks and now we know they lied and continue to lie. Yep. We have difference sources. I’m happy to keep my eyes open.

  10. Michael says:

    I don’t trust the FDA or CDC either…but this illustrates the problem ….we can’t even agree on information anymore.

    This is affecting every area of life…

  11. Nonnie says:

    I agree with you on this. Blessings, my friend. I appreciate that we can even have this conversation. Thank you!

  12. Nonnie says:

    That Michael and I can disagree on issues without vitriol and name calling, is what adults are supposed to be able to do. There are others here who have/or had a strong voice who abused and name called in the past. I stayed away for a while because of it. I am thankful that TODAY I can state my opinion, Michael can disagree, and we can move on from there. No name calling, no questioning if we are truly Christians, etc. Thank you, Michael.

  13. Michael says:

    Thank you. my friend…

  14. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thank you Nonnie and Michael for this mature exchange. Very good and needed example.

  15. Kevin H says:

    “As Christians, our search should always be to find and proclaim the truth, no matter how uncomfortable that truth may be.”

    “Our concern is for the welfare of people, not the promotion of political sides.”

    “Our concern is not with our “rights”, but to act and do right for the common good.”

    From the very beginning of this whole mess, this is where my concerns have resided. Finding truthful information without a bias is harder and harder in our divided culture and so it has been hard to declare many things with certainty. But what we do know with certainty is how God has called us to treat and care about others, and while we would want everyone to follow such exhortation, my much greater concern has been with how Christians are doing this as we are the ones who claim to be following after God and His ways.

    That is why I have been much more bothered by Christians who have emphasized “their rights” over concern for how exercising those rights could potentially be hurting others.

    That is why I have been much more bothered by Christians who have chosen to disobey the government and call for others to do so on things which lacked definitive clarity by citing as truth ambiguous (at best) information and demonstratably biased sources, even as there were legitimate suspicions and concerns of the actions and agendas of government and health officials.

    That is why I have been much more bothered by Christians promoting information that is verifiably false, openly slandering those who they oppose, and bearing false witness by definitively assigning deleterious motives to all those whose actions they opposed, when in most cases there was no way they could judge with nearly any certainty as to what was in people’s hearts and minds.

    This pandemic was a great opportunity for the church to stand up and be the church, but in many ways we failed miserably.

    While many sides need to admit wrongdoing, wouldn’t it be great if it started with Christians who should know a thing or two about the importance of humility, repentance, and reconciliation.

  16. Michael says:

    Well said, KevinH…and I appreciate your voice more than you know.

    This was my attempt to take the lead…glad you’re with us.

  17. Linn says:

    Thank you, Kevin H!
    When COVID hit, I knew it would be bad just from the reports i had seen coming out of China. I was thankful when the government decided to take some action. My personal opinion is that the death toll could have been much higher if the mitigation efforts that were taken by the government had not been put into action. Yes, some may have been overreach or been too long, but I shudder to think how much worse it might have been. Have we quickly forgotten what happened in New York, Italy, Spain, and India?

    My big concern is how so many of us (me included) do our own “research” and often ignore what is obvious. I could have posted 20 different links regarding the efficacy of vaccines/boosters/masking from reputable sources (I found a Google page with that many), but I’m not very good at tit for tat. What I can say is that I am vaxxed, boosted, and flu-vaxxed, and I have not had COVID yet. I am also a teacher who works in a petri dish with 250 students. Other vaccinated people I have known have not been as ill as they could have been (that includes my 83 year-old assisted living stepmom). I don’t take not having had COVID yet for granted, but I do think vaxxing and good hygiene have made a big difference in my case. And, I’m 65-not a youngster.

    I respect my friends who have other opinions. I love a good conversation about opposing viewpoints, but I just don’t engage when people begin yelling at me or sending me a gazillion different online articles from sources I have never heard of and that I don’t have time to vet. I have lost several friends to COVID who were not vaccinated, which may cause some prejudice on my part.

    I think the situation in China may give us a lot more information about COVID. Many of the elderly in China are not vaccinated and don’t want to be. People have been locked up for three years (much worse than anything we ever experienced here in the States) and China apparently does not have the medical infrastructure to deal with the crisis.

    Finally, many of our responses to COVID aren’t that different than the beginning of the AIDS epidemic in the early 80s-except that AIDS initially only affected one group of people. However, once AIDS started going mainstream and researchers became very serious about discovering a treatment, we learned so much more. We learned that some of the ways we thought it was transmitted weren’t true, that anyone could get it if the circumstances were right, including innocent parties like the partners of the unfaithful, hemophiliacs, and babies in the womb. People who get proper treatment for AIDS can live long, full lives, and I trust that COVID may become one of those diseases, too-treatable and livable.

    I am still mourning a friend of mine who went down to visit her family in Nicaragua last summer. COVID seemed to have abated, she was thrilled to see her family for the first time in two years, and then she became very ill. They didn’t even have a ventilator for her, and there was no time to fly her out of the country for better treatment. She died 72 hours after being diagnosed. This is why I personally support reputable scientific treatment and vaccination.

  18. Dan from Georgia says:

    Kevin,

    Great comment, and that is the biggie for me. Compassion. I lost my father in law to COVID, and my wife’s cousin nearly died on his FIRST bout with COVID (2nd bout was less impactful). My 84 year old mom overcame COVID a few months back, and my wife and I are now getting over our turn (she got it worse than I did).

    Thanks to God for the people that cared enough to pray for all the above, regardless of whether they are pro- or anti-vaccine. And yes, those on opposite ends of that spectrum were and are in prayer.

    What tears my hide and almost made me type out a few profanity-laced responses to some individuals on another website is the callous, uncaring, and insensitve comments people will take up in the name of being right.

  19. Michael says:

    Linn,

    Well said….thank you.

  20. Michael says:

    Dan,

    I wholeheartedly agree…the lack of caring is stunning at times.

  21. Nonnie says:

    I wasn’t concerned with rights more than I was concerned for TRUTH. I knew we were being lied to and to wonder if people were dying because of government lies and SEEING people die from the government putting Covid sick people in nursing homes, whilst telling the rest of us we needed to stay home to protect the elderly…..I was looking for truth not my rights. My compassion was for those being abused by government lies right in front of our faces.

  22. Michael says:

    Nonnie,

    I simply didn’t have that kind of clarity and on many issues related to the pandemic, I still don’t.

    We did hear a lot from the church about the “right” to assemble and the “right” to go without a mask.

    The nursing home debacle will go down as a massive public policy failure…

  23. The New Victor says:

    From a novel I just read:

    “The democratization of information was seen as a great thing. And it should be. But people don’t treat information the same way they treat bullets and acid and hand grenades. They are all dangerous. The worst thing you can tell someone is to research something themselves. When you do, they will almost always reinforce the idea they were researching because they don’t know how not to look for information that doesn’t support their idea.”

    I know people on multiple sides as do we all, even those who think vaccines will contain lead, as if the safety data sheets for every compound and chemical aren’t available on the internet (and if a micrograms of lead are more dangerous than a virus that can kill you anyway). A little knowledge can be dangerous.

    I’m vaxxed, not boosted, and had covid over the summer.

  24. Michael says:

    TNV,

    That is a great quote…right on…

  25. Captain Kevin says:

    Michael and Nonnie, thank you for showing us how grace can win the day.

  26. Jimb says:

    Read Robert F Kennedy’s book The Real Anthony Fauci, a real eye opener. Also a movie with the same title was made. One question I wish someone would ask Fauci – when research was being conducted at the Wuhan Lab , couldn’t the CCP have had its own scientists embedded in the lab.?

    Other questions I have , why was there no information provided about how to strengthen one’s immune system through vitamins, healthy food and exercise… all we heard was vax vax vax..

    I have dozens of other questions.

  27. Kevin H says:

    Paige,

    You are a long time appreciated member of this community who more than knows the abuse that Michael has long fought against here and I thank you for your contributions.

    Nonetheless, what you have written here sadly demonstrates much of the wrongness that Michael has written about here. Both sides of the political/cultural divide in this thing have been a mixture of truth, good will, deception, and hate. Unfortunately, while decrying the “Narrative” of one side as being thoroughly false and evil, you have bought into the narrative of the other side which can demonstrably be shown to contain just as much falsity and evil.

    I am not going to debate detail after detail here as there are far too many and that will not get us anywhere, anyway. But let me speak to one issue you raised to demonstrate my overriding concern for how Christians have conducted themselves through this whole thing.

    You stated that you wouldn’t wear a mask with your massage clients. I assume during various periods of time you were required to wear a mask by law. As Christians, we are instructed to obey the government unless it conflicts with something that definitively violates God’s laws. Mandates to wear a mask do not remotely violate anything that God has commanded to us, thus the refusal to wear mask in such situations is disobedience to God.

    Of greater concern is the risk at which you placed others in your refusal to wear a mask. When this whole pandemic started, the efficacy of masks were a bit of an uncertainty as there just hadn’t been many studies done on them. However, as time went on during the pandemic, study after study were performed on masks and just about every one showed that while masks did not wholly prevent the spread of COVID, they did reduce the risks of transmission, even the worst quality of masks. This is not a “lie” of the government or the mainstream media, but simple, unbiased science that can be confirmed with just a small effort of “research”.

    These are the types of things that have saddened me as many Christians have chosen to follow a “narrative” whole hog that is a mix of truth and error and treat it as if it is wholly true while wrongfully slandering those who promote a different “narrative” as complete liars who are “only” out to get us and control us. In the end, our expression of the love of Christ has been significantly compromised on the altar of extreme partisan politics.

  28. Michael says:

    Full stop.

    I don’t intend to prosecute all this here, nor do I want to act is if all this info is credible.

    I simply can’t and won’t promote Kennedy and many others mentioned by my friend Paige, nor will I promote therapeutics I can’t find anything but anecdotal evidence for.

    Both put me in a position I don’t qualify to be in…so lets move this to less specific aspects and more, how hard it is to assess all the different claims.

  29. Michael says:

    Anecdotes go both ways.

    I was having a lot of pre and post open heart surgery medical visits during the pandemic…and the stress on my medical team was high.

    I had one PA break down during a visit telling me about a family she was trying to keep alive as she double shifted between cardiology and the Covid floor…showed me the line at 11 in the morning of people waiting to be treated in the ER.
    How is there such disparity between what I was told and what Paige believes?
    Both of us are speaking truth as we received it.
    Something is very broken…

  30. Michael says:

    KevinH,

    One of the most interesting biblical studies I’ve ever done is how the church should act in “hostile” environments.

    I think you spoke well to the mask issue…it didn’t involve worship of another God or breaking a commandment…refusing to comply with that mandate did. The vaccine is much trickier, but when a Christian stands for conscience sake against the rulers, they have to be willing to understand the consequences.

    The Bible and the constitution are different documents…

  31. Paige says:

    Hi Michael. Please remove my post…. thanks…and best of the New Year to you. Take care everyone…

  32. Michael says:

    Paige,

    I did as you asked, but I think was an important piece of the discussion…if you reconsider, let me know.

  33. Paige says:

    Thank you my dear… God bless you and your much prayed for family in the new year. Seek and ye shall find.

  34. Michael says:

    Paige,

    Blessings to you as well, my friend.

  35. Babylon's Dread says:

    This incident with Paige is what has happened to this space. Conversation is very difficult and is best served at the table. We cannot talk with those with whom we do not partake.

  36. Michael says:

    BD,

    How do we go forward…or do we?

  37. Jimb says:

    In 2008, the contamination of a raw ingredient imported from China and used to make heparin, a blood-thinning drug, was associated with at least eighty-one deaths the United States. According to an investigative journalist, fraud and manipulation of quality data is still endemic in Chinese pharmaceutical firms.

    In the summer of 2018, one of China’s largest domestic vaccine makers sold at least 250,000 substandard doses of vaccine for diphtheria, tetanus, and whooping cough. It was the latest in a slew of scandals caused by poor quality drug products made in China over the last decade. In 2008, the contamination of a raw ingredient imported from China and used to make heparin, a blood-thinning drug, was associated with at least eighty-one deaths the United States.

    https://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall-alert-rappel-avis/hc-sc/2021/75391r-eng.php

    👆👆nothing to see here.

  38. Dread says:

    Michael

    Maybe I’ll comment in private. But virtually all conversation in all realms is quickly adversarial. As you’ve noted it is everywhere.

  39. Chris Long says:

    Michael, I just wanted to say that you have inspiringly modeled what all should do (particularly Christians) when they find a position they held can no longer be defended. Most just dig in further. It’s rare to see a genuine statement of such clarity as you have provided. Thank you! 🙂 Without getting into too much, I will just say irrespective of what a person believes the science is or is not, the type of power and control we let happen is the real issue. When the govt starts mandating that churches can’t be open for many months or you can’t even gather in your own home as family for the holidays or you have to be fired if you don’t medically agree with what’s being pushed or if you try to offer a different opinion (even as a medical doctor) and you get banned or dismissed as a nut/conspiracy theorist etc that’s the real problem and I don’t care what comes down the pike in the future, that’s the kind of stuff we need to guard against. That and people telling other people they are “unpatriotic” or “killing people” simply because they have a medical opinion based on what they have seen and reasoned that some other people don’t share. I hope this has taught us all in society a lesson. I’m not sure to the degree it actually has though.

  40. Michael says:

    Dread,

    I struggle mightily with this…being challenged shouldn’t always be seen as adversarial.
    I certainly don’t consider Paige an adversary…but I do agree with Kevins assessment of the biblical mandate.
    When I write I expect to be challenged…I welcome it because it helps me think with more clarity.

    I think that once again I’m missing something visceral about these discussions…something that is outside my experience or personality…and I can’t find what it is.

  41. Michael says:

    Chris,

    I’m not sure we’ve learned anything except that burned bridges are hard to rebuild, if one even has the inclination to so.
    We still are lining up as combatants in a war instead of family around a table.

  42. Dan from Georgia says:

    Personal for me is that people get sick with COVID regardless of whether the virus was made or evolved in China. Kevin nailed it here with the reminder of the Biblical mandate.

    You all here…don’t forget compassion and care.

  43. JD says:

    I worked for the government for 40 years, 3 months, and 4 days. One thing I can say for certain is: You can’t trust the government. I did and I don’t recommend it.

  44. Michael says:

    Dan,

    I hear you.

    When my clan got sick I didn’t care about anything except finding ways to help them recover.
    I didn’t give a rats ass which side approved of which therapeutic…if Ivermectin or possum urine had studied value, we were going to load up on it.

    All that mattered was getting them well.

    What I found were conflicting reports from doctors and published journals that made finding truth impossible.

    I don’t know much more now then when I started…despite reading literally hundreds of journal articles and talking to a half dozen doctors.

    We have to agree on some standards eventually…or this anarchy is going to kill many more.

  45. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Michael. Yes, it is hard in the so-called “information age” to fetter out what’s legit and not legit.

  46. Steve says:

    Thanks to Elon Musk I found out that the head of the ethics department at the NIH that was supposed to make sure Fauci was ethical was his wife. Why did that never come up before? That was all I needed to connect the dots for me that we have probably been consistently lied to for years now.

  47. pstrmike says:

    This virus can jump around like a tornado, sparing one building while obliterating others.

    I’ve followed all the recommended protocols; I have a rather strong bout of Covid anyway. I recovered without taking anything other than Tylenol and NyQuil. It took almost two weeks for me to test negative and close to two months before I began to feel normal. My wife didn’t get sick nor did my grand daughter although everyone else in her house did.

    I’m convinced the pandemic brought out the worst in many of us. It is something that I’m not willing to go through a second time. Almost every opinion is without a conciliatory view toward its opposite. that’s no way for a society to live.

  48. Linn says:

    Pstr Mike,

    I think it would help if we didn’t all proclaim ourselves experts just because of some random thing we have read or heard. To be a true expert you really have to be conversant on both sides of the issue. I still haven’t had COVID yet, and I’ve lost count of how many kids I sent to the nurse who were sent home after testing positive. I did wear my mask (no other way to work in a school), but outside of work, too. I also kept up with my vaccines and reasonably healthy lifestyle.

    What I have found amazing is how hostile people are towards doctors and medical science. I know they aren’t always right, but they are usually not too far off track. I know there are changes. I’ve had seven hip surgeries in my lifetime. When I was a kid, it meant three months in a body cast. As an adult, it was first a few days in bed and up, and the last one up on day 3. I’m not sure we always want to believe and/or accept how fast things can change, which is one of the reasons the messaging on COVID changed so fast and the vaccines were developed so quickly.

    Personally, I am thankful for the resources God has graciously provided through modern medicine. My parents were told when I was 16 months old that I would never walk.Then, we were directed to a teaching hospital with a hopeful surgeon. I walked at almost 4 years, and I’ve been walking ever since with cane, crutches, and now my rolling walker-but I’m walking.

  49. Chris Long says:

    Michael @ 11:31: I fear you may be right. As you have noted many times and many a thread have illustrated, it is getting progressively harder to have conversations without each side digging their heels in and simply lobbing arrows. Our whole society is being taught to “defend” their belief by demonizing the other side. This isn’t a political issue (happens on both the right and the left) or COVID-specific. Society will do what society does – but as Christians we are supposed to live in, operate from, and defer to love. In regards to COVID, those heavily pushing vaccines/masks/lockdowns often came at others that believed/believe differently with an air of “moral superiority” and condemning of those that believed differently. I personally saw and encountered plenty of “unpatriotic” and “its your moral duty” talk from dear Christians telling people how they needed to take the vaccine, or else… On the flipside, I saw Christians on the other side criticizing and demeaning the “dumb sheep just following the herd”. This whole “my group” against “your group” mentality is a major problem and as the Church we need to be particularly mindful of trying to not get sucked into this same pattern that culture is showing forth.

  50. Michael says:

    Jim,

    I’m not going to engage in dueling links here.
    Please desist.

  51. Michael says:

    Chris,

    I saw that moral superiority exhibited on both sides…I engaged in it myself.
    Turns out we were all wrong about a bunch of stuff…but none of us know what exactly…because the truth is hard to discern.

  52. Reuben says:

    From the first moments of the government breaking all rules to push through a pharmaceutical gold mind, I viewed this as a Capitalist government giving an already astronomical profit based industry even more profit. It was playing with people’s lives based entirely on a healthcare system that rolls in riches due to our misfortune. I view it to be this simple, and also a huge “tell all” story of our current end stage Capitalism state of affairs. But nobody seems to see it that way. This country is evil to its core over healthcare alone, and the Capitalists who drive it could not care less what you injected into your body, as long as it is government subsidies and more profit margin to be made.

    I have said it before, I will continue to say it, Capitalsim aka the insatiable lust for money does not care about human beings. Republican, Democrat, CDC, FDA, and the entire healthcare system has no actual value for what it clearly sees as a liability from the second it is born.

    Don’t even get me started on health insurance.

  53. Jim says:

    Dueling links,, I posted one link and cited a couple fact checked articles …. The one link I posted was an article about 30.1 million masks being recalled as the masks were founded to be embedded with a toxic substance. The masks were from the country promoting the Belt and Road initiative which over 70 countries have signed on to.

  54. Michael says:

    Jim.

    I understand that everyone in this debate believes they have “proof” of skullduggery of one sort or another.
    Everyone is convinced in their own mind.
    My hope was to find a middle way forward to speak with each other…not to persuade people to a side.

  55. Jim says:

    Found to be embedded

  56. Captain Kevin says:

    Reuben, I hear you. I have a love-hate relationship with health insurance. I use the term love loosely. It might be more accurate for me to call it a “I need this for survival but hate how it works and how much it costs relationship.”

  57. Robi says:

    I think there were many mistakes made, yet we responded as people normally do in pandemics with great caution and fear. And I don’t blame the government for that.

  58. Cathy M says:

    Wow – a lot here to read. IMO: Covid is a very bad flu; it is a virus that mutates and requires a host in order to remain. Vaccine is an inappropriate name for a flu shot, but it does not mean the shot is ineffective. There was a plethora of information out there that the church put out, as did other groups, which was incorrect. Who to trust? Nobody unless you actually have someone in your life that is educated and able to speak to disease modeling and viral science. I lost my aunt, I had it myself and I got the shots. I resent massively that the church behaved as if this was taking “the mark of the beast” and I despise how they villainized people who didn’t march to the beat of their drum. There was no BIBLICAL reason for any of that behavior. That’s the biggest failure of all. It’s not the act of doing these things, whether I agree or disagree with them is irrelevant, but it’s the fact that these people in church leadership and influence used the Bible as a weapon to justify their non-Biblical behavior. That’s called gaslighting. And it’s not only morally wrong but even God Himself had a point about it with Job’s friends. It says Job 42:7 says He was angry with them because they had not spoken accurately about Him. Something to ponder….

  59. Michael says:

    Full stop.
    I’m on my way back to hospital where my godson is undergoing tests on his heart for cardiac issues caused by the “very bad flu”.

    I have cardiac issues after the booster shot…after having cardiac health resolved by an artificial valve.

    It’s not as simple as either side wants to make it and we’ve been completely screwed by turning this into a political/religious issue.

  60. Officerhoppy says:

    Michael
    We’ll be praying for your god-son—and you

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