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26 Responses

  1. PP Vet says:

    “Glad you got a notch in your belt for bringing down a guy as big as you wish you were.”

    Not a shot at you, MN, I was just ranting at the air as always, not at anyone in particular.

    I know how important it is to you to not be wrongly motivated in your care for people.

  2. erunner says:

    This caught me a bit off guard. Vicky Beeching comes out of the closet. Two articles I found I’ve linked. I have some of her music and she’s written some powerful songs.

  3. I don’t get it. If I came ‘out of the closet’ as a serial adulterer everyone would rejoice in my confession and expect me to stop and fully change my ways.

    For the homosexual, it’s like it is time to rejoice in their honesty and wish them well. I wonder how far I would get explaining to Christianity Today that God supports my adulterous lifestyle and as this singer says “loves me just the way I am”?

    Not me – she’s off my Christmas card list.

  4. PP Vet says:

    MLD, you are so 2008.

  5. Babylon's Dread says:

    When the tipping point comes people will call evil good…
    20  This is the way of an adulteress:
    she eats and wipes her mouth
    and says, “I have done no wrong.”

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton: Standard Bible Society, 2001), Pr 30:20.

  6. Babylon's Dread says:

    15  The leech has two daughters:
    Give and Give.
    Three things are never satisfied;
    four never say, “Enough”:
    16  Sheol, the barren womb,
    the land never satisfied with water,
    and the fire that never says, “Enough.”

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton: Standard Bible Society, 2001), Pr 30:15–16.

  7. Michael says:

    So…we’ve had to deal with the Driscoll mess and others like it for years.
    I’m working on a story about missionaries and child abuse that may never see the light of day because of the incredible obstacles thrown up to the truth by “men of God”.
    Forgive me if I really don’t care that much what consenting adults do in their bedrooms.
    If we were so concerned about “traditional families” we would have made as much of divorce as we do of homosexuality.
    Yes, it’s a sin…and yes, they want it blessed…but we’ve been blessing other sins in the church for a long time.
    I won’t bless it…but I’m not going to rail on it either.

  8. Michael, agreed….we bless the sins that are more common to the Pastorate…not the 3% of humans that are homosexual.

    Gluttony, divorce, lying, greed, pride…no biggie.

  9. Michael says:

    It’s not just the sins that are common to the pastorate…but to those sitting under the pastorate.
    3-5% of the population, the majority of which are not believers…are an easy target.
    I’m not understating the impact of the cultural change in attitude etc, etc…I’m just more worried about cleaning up my own house and heart.

  10. PP Vet says:

    Not sure how God feels now, but when he tried the human thing the only sin that really harshed His mellow was religious hypocrisy.

    Which, by the way, is off of my personal specialties.

    Which should scare me, and it does.

  11. PP Vet says:

    Typo alert “one of my personal specialties”

  12. erunner says:

    First time I shared something regarding homosexuality here. As I’m a huge music guy this caught my attention because Vicky has had a powerful impact in the Christian music sphere. I’m not losing any sleep over what people do in their bedrooms.

    What bothers me is the erosion of the validity of God’s word and what constitutes truth in these puzzling times. We have universalism out there as a truth. We have the god monster of the OT as a truth. We have the stories in the OT referred to as myths or fairy tales. We have the writings of Paul being minimized. We have blurred the line between the faith and cults as if sincerity is the ticket into Heaven.

    Ultimately the gospel message is going to change in some circles giving people a false hope as they are headed to an eternity separated from God.

    I should be able to bring something up like this without it being intimated I don’t care about other sins that beset many. It is open blogging after all.

  13. Michael says:


    I wasn’t intimating that at all.
    I do think that it is a huge blind spot in conservative evangelicalism.
    I would also posit that because we ignore our own garbage, we have lost the moral authority to speak to anyone else’s in the eyes of the culture.
    The old speck/plank thing…
    I’ve never heard of this woman before today…if you find out that Jerry Lee swings both ways, that will get my attention.

  14. Paige says:

    The old speck/plank thing. Exactly.
    Today I find myself begging God’s forgiveness for ever thinking that I actually understood Him enough to speak on His behalf.
    “I have heard of You with the hearing of the ears, but now my eyes see You, and I repent in dust and ashes”….. Job 42something….. my new mantra.

  15. Bob says:

    ““I feel certain God loves me just the way I am, and I have a huge sense of calling to communicate that to young people.””

    Says Vicky Beeching.

    I submit this, of god “loves us just the way we are” there would be no need for a Savior and Messiah, Jesus.

    No God loves His creation and wants to redeem it from what it has become on its own. Yes Alex that includes the glutenous and all those others you harp on. In the context of our walk and life are there some “sins” which are worse than others?

    I know the answer is yes.

    Adultery is a violation of a covenant, sexual sin is a violation of design, gluttony is a violation of many things, the worst of which is the failure to do one’s best to take care of the creation God gave us.

    Yep, in my view, He does not love us as we are, but He does love us for what we can be in Him!

    We should be sad that our self-control (I include myself here BTW) at its best is a failure before God. But no, we want to flaunt it before Him.

    Just my thoughts.

    BTW would it make a difference if Ms. Beeching wasn’t a culturally attractive women, but rather was an overweight and rather guyish looking? She probably wouldn’t be getting the same attention.

  16. Bob says:

    I want this to be perfectly clear, sorry for the error:

    I submit this, if God “loves us just the way we are” there would be no need for a Savior and Messiah, Jesus.

  17. erunner says:

    Michael, if Vicky was a non believer I wouldn’t have brought this up. As it is an “in house” issue I thought I would. I bring it up because I see it as a symptom of something larger and what I think is very dangerous as I stated above. It’s not so much a gay issue as it is a systematic tearing down of the authority of God’s word.

    I know this site is largely concerned about the abuse of the pastoral office but we did spend a large chunk of time discussing the things that went on in Bob Coy’s bedroom. Rightfully he was disciplined and no one will defend the sin of adultery. At least I haven’t seen it yet.

    It’s all of the other things that concern me where people in the church are defending the sinful acts and beliefs of many for any number of reasons.

    I don’t post this stuff not fully aware of where I fall short and what I’m capable of.

    I agree with people who say many in the church have acted as if there’s only two sins; abortion and homosexuality.

  18. Michael says:


    I understand.
    My own position that is developing while teaching through the Gospels is that we ignore the authority of the word of God on much larger and more vital issues…and I don’t hear a lot of wailing about what I consider the “big stuff”.
    My other thought is that we’ve made it 2000 years and we’re still here…and God has promised that His church will prevail.
    I’m working through the Beatitudes…and will teach tomorrow on righteousness that equates with justice…and if I wrote about it here, I’d be condemned as a liberal, not hailed as a biblicist.

  19. erunner says:

    Michael, there’s a big disparity between what many in the church consider vital issues. There’s room for differences and we should be able to discuss them productively although that’s not quite the norm from what I see. Thanks for the discussion.

  20. Xenia says:

    I feel that the homosexuality issue is today’s version of offering the pinch of incense to Caesar.

    I imagine there were Christians alive during the reign of Diocletian who said there were much worse sins than pretending to worship Caesar, yet this was the issue that made many martyrs.

    I agree that we have lost the moral high ground by our own sinfulness yet this is no reason to throw in the towel.

  21. Xenia says:

    I don’t think any of care what people do in their own bedrooms but we do care what they do in our classrooms, bakeries and city streets.

  22. j2theperson says:

    ***I submit this, if God “loves us just the way we are” there would be no need for a Savior and Messiah, Jesus.***

    At the same time it is repeatedly said within the church that one can’t earn or do anything to gain salvation–that it’s a free gift of God, that our role is very passive. It seems really easy to jump from the idea that you can’t do anything to earn God’s acceptance or forgiveness to believing that God loves us just the way we are.

  23. Bob says:


    “It seems really easy to jump from the idea that you can’t do anything to earn God’s acceptance or forgiveness to believing that God loves us just the way we are.”

    You are very correct.

    In my opinion our post-modern culture the message of salvation has been watered down to saying a prayer, sprinkling some water, dunking a head and drinking a cup; all is good. God loves me…

    Too bad the simple command, “if you love Me you will…” is long forgotten when salvation is “gained” and I believe we find though out history people react in similar ways and forget the “love the Lord God” with all the heart and power one has.

    I believe Ms. Beeching either is or can be “saved,” but I think her comments betray her and indicate she really doesn’t know God at all, nor doe she understand what it means when Paul gives the old Romans 10 confession. If she knew God she would know this; He did make Ms. Beeching to love other women, just not to have sex with them. She would also know that to encourage others in any way contrary to this is, in my opinion, abuse.

    I will be the first to admit that loving God is a lifetime struggle,and is the very reason why Jacob was named “Israel” and God gave us a Savior and Messiah. It is also why Paul stated this, “who will set me free me from this body of death…”

    Now I don’t want to confuse anything with this; God does want His creation to come to Him “as they are,” but with a heart of change or repentance. It also occurred to me this is the way people approach each other after a major problem. They (especially my wife) want to hear, “I’m sorry and I was wrong,” with no buts thrown in. What they don’t want to hear is, “You have to love me the way I am, so live with it!”

    Have a blessed first day of the new week! Celebrate His love!

  24. Paige says:

    I am a gardener and a chicken keeper (bee keeper too)…. I’ve learned that I can plant stuff anywhere in the garden, but certain plants will only flourish in the ‘right’ conditions. I can keep chickens in my house if I choose, no law against it, but it’s not optimal and neither the best for them or for me.

    So many of the choices we are given in this life, both physical and spiritual, are like that… ‘all things are lawful for me, but not all things are edifying’ Paul said….. Some choices lead to a greater likelihood of simplicity, calm and/or good health, while other choices may lead to physical or spiritual decline. God loves us in either case, but the consequences of certain lifestyle choices may lead to discord or early death…. Thus, by His Grace, we ‘chose this day, whom we will serve”…..

  25. You know, I never feel old for any of my reasons (even getting out of bed in the morning etc). In my head I am 18 and raring to go. Looking at life through my kids is a different story.

    My daughter turned 40 today … I feel old. 🙂

  26. PP Vet says:

    18? When I was 18 I lived the Deuteronomy 21 lifestyle: I was stubborn and rebellious, and I got stoned.

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