I hope you’re happy, White. Hide behind your religion and your piousness all you want, the only reason you had to post something like this was to take a shot at Spellman.
Your brand of Reformed Calvinism smells so much like a tomb that all the bleach and perfume in the world can’t whitewash the smell out of.
As followers of Jesus the issue is always revealed faith. Jesus revealed the father. When the world of Jesus day decided to reshape marriage according to their desire to get out of the box Jesus reminded them that the marriage box was from his Father… “from the beginning…”
I am not sure how reshaped boxes trump divine revelation. Of course we can always say Jesus was wrong or that he didn’t know or that we have greater revelations of the Father than Jesus gave us, or… we could repent. Seems like repentance was the way out.
Dudes, lighten up. I found some cool graphics about thinking out of boxes, posted them, clipped them. Our corp-speak is about box-free thinking and as I work for an org supporting nurses the big thing is Ebola and the fail in Dallas. The hospital stayed within too many boxes and released the guy…
“The hospital stayed within too many boxes and released the guy…”
Some of us would say that had they kept their thinking within the box, they would have tested him for ebola..
From a corporate background I find people who advocate thinking outside the box, really want you thinking within their box.
Thinking inside the box says end entry of all travel originating in West Africa.Thinking outside the box means you are thinking with the Obama administration and refusing to think rationally.
Does anyone else think it non coincidental that for the past several years we have been letting all these Central American kids in the country unchecked and now we have all these strange diseases running throughout our schools?
I read the other day 70% have not shown up for their court appointments – – – imagine my surprise.
G- having spent a little time in the health care arena both professionally and as a family member of patients, I think the ER if that hospital acted exactly within their box.
Not the correct box, but their box.
It doesn’t surprise me one little bit that they sent him out with just a script for antibiotics. Not one bit.
Not a surprise that they didnt pass the message of his travel to each other either.
I’ve worked the ER and see things like that way too often.
BrianD…I remember back in the Wild West days of PP, Jason and I had some intense conversations about our faith and theology. I was so candid, people were telling me to resign my post, lol. Jason was one of the more passionate critics of mine….only to later adhere to what I was espousing. I was shocked when he converted to the RCC due to our interactions. Now, looking back I see he was passionate in arguing because he was himself wavering about these things. And I, myself, have nuanced some of my views since then….maybe just the natural order of things when it comes to this journey.
Rachael Maddow’s Friday night episode does a great job of telling the story and an interview with Dr. Irwin Redletter, Director for the National Center for Disaster Preparedness at Colombia University addresses how unprepared our healthcare system is for this pathogen. One of the glaring issues is that no one thought to think out of the box and alert anyone that the patient was a risk
It was apparently written in the EHR. (Electronic health record). The doc should have read it.
I’d be very interested to see what system they are using. Alerts like that are usually hard to miss. Unless they didnt use an alert.
There’s so many ways those systems work…
Also, with universal precautions, and other policies they should have in place for other diseases, there’s no excuse for a facility to not be ready for this particular issue.
The triage nurse should have dropped everything when Ebola-ish symptoms were presenting from a guy who said he had just returned from Africa. She should have picked up the phone and mobilized their emergency protocols
“She should have picked up the phone and mobilized their emergency protocols”
Sorry G, but as soon as you say “she should have…” that implies there is a box in which she should be thinking. The “emergency protocols” are that box.
These folk apparently ignored the box and decided to think outside the box – ignore protocol and send the patient home
I found the James White article on Jason quite disturbing, too. While I certainly don’t agree with where Jason currently is in his faith journey as I think the RCC system is filled with a lot of errors, the way White chose to write about him was unnecessary and unloving, to say it nicely. Here Jason is expressing his hurts and White just comes along and kicks him while he’s down. Sheesh.
A few years ago, in another part of the Internet, I was harassed by some really obnoxious people who turned out to be members of White’s Sunday School class. He really believes he’s the bee’s knees of Protestant apologetics and has a band of devoted followers. Really very unpleasant people, the whole lot of them.
I understand Jason’s complaints although I don’t expect a triumphalist like White to understand. Jason said humanly speaking, he gave up a lot: his friends, his job, worshiping with his family.
Same thing happened with me, by the way, in a gentler way. I lost all my CC friends but it’s not their fault- I left them, they didn’t leave me. Unfortunately, we find ourselves quite awkward when we meet in the store as they think I have joined a non-Christian cult. I was permitted to keep my job at the CC high school, but after a year it became obvious (to me at least) that is wasn’t working. So I quite. Again, not their fault. And I am always invited to attend my kids’ evangelical church services but they no longer appeal to me. Again, not their fault.
So while it is true that Jason and I both gave up a lot, it was our decisions. It can still be painful, though, even if it was the right decision to make. Ruminating about it in public in the presence of the kind of vultures that Jason’s decision has attracted took some guts.
I think I am happier with my new (12 years now) Church than Jason is with his. I have fully embraced the Orthodox culture while Jason still writes about being a misfit, etc.
But White does not understand any of these things. He’s got a religious formula and a platform and a passel of adherents who think he’s The Best.
G,
They didnt need to pick up the phone cause it was right there in the notes.
But, having said that, without knowing what other types of patients they were dealing with at the same time, MVA, GSW, Heart Attack etc, its hard to say what happened.
For all we know, the nurse may have told the doc but the doc didnt really hear it.
However, I agree that they need some kind of protocol for infectious disease.
It doesn’t surprise me one little bit that they sent him out with just a script for antibiotics. Not one bit.
Not a surprise that they didnt pass the message of his travel to each other either.
I’ve worked the ER and see things like that way too often.
And who will be held accountable for the idiocy of the Dallas authorities if they fail to contain this thing from here on out? If this thing gets out of control because they are too timid (for political reasons with regard to West African travelers) to enforce quarantine protocol, there will be backlash and blowback not even seen in the wake of the 9/11 disaster.
I have pretty much shown myself to be a spiritual prostitute as one brother said to me, but I would never leave a friend if they changed communions. My sister got in alot of trouble in her life, and it really cost me, big time. But when she was sick she was my sister. I just could not do what Jesus said that if I love family more than him I am not worthy of him. I just could not abandon her even if it meant my soul, if I ever actually had one. God this faith is just so tiring.
Prevents broadcasting a patients condition in most instances. The fear of lawsuits can help the spread of Ebola if patients are sent away; back into the world at large and no one gets warned…
The healthcare system is about money.If you have insurance that pays well….you will get treated to the hilt.No Insurance or lots of cash to pay up front you will get the minimum and sent home……..
I’ve worked in emergency rooms at various points in my career. It is controlled chaos. ERs are dealing with everything from severe heart attacks and auto accident trauma to people with a bad head cold. And they all want, need, and demand instant action.
You won’t find a better working team than the doctors and nurses and administrators in an emergency room in most cases. It is almost a ballet in the subtle interaction of the medical staff. You realize that a mistake can have very, very dire consequences, so the level of professionalism is great, as is the level of stress. I’ve loved and hated every minute when a life critical emergency is being handled. It is literally life or death. Some times, after a shift, I couldn’t sleep at all even though I was exhausted.
Modern computer systems are a great assistance, but, as the saying goes, to error is human, to really foul up requires a computer. Computers have no intelligence and garbage in / garbage out is the rule. Then there’s the new system that changed everything and users are not familiar with the latest version, revision, or whiz-bang wonder technology that got sold to the hospital officials that don’t know how to put on a band aid. But I digress.
JU, I’ve worked in them as well so agree with the controlled chaos and dance examples.
I work in Healthsystems IT now, so don’t agree much about blaming the system.
Latest industry email I got said the info was in the system properly for this patient.
Somehow, it got missed.
We both know it’s not that weird for someone to be sent out of ER, particularly or a busy day, with less than the correct dx and told to follow up with their primary.
The real question is about the culture of the hospital. This week I can anticipate nursing organizations informing their members of the need to be bold, take initiate to alert their peers of high risk indicators such as a sick traveler returning from an Ebola impacted region and escalating the issue to highest management and the CDC.
Sadly it’s up to diligent individuals to take career impacting risks.
I spent much of today reading about Jason Stellman’s original “conversion” to the RCC. Now I am sure his leaving his old denomination. Its hard to see how one can really have any dialog. It was actually very awful to see.
He made many mistakes, he had many regrets, and I was there with him when he was suffering and I was there with him when he died. Well almost you see a rather substantial earthquake hit back on that day. I was looking for my mother and my nephew when that EQ hit. The last time I saw my father alive was when he was in the recovery room at El Camino Hospital. He was asleep all wrapped up and I was enlisted in carrying folks up and down the stairs for a few hours. I did not know this at the time but my mother was near by but I had to get home to see to our house and to try to find my nephew in this emergency. He disappeared do to the emergency. I will refrain from my usual rhetoric, I could not save my father, I hate myself for that, and to my dying day did not. I did try. I guess that is why I struggle.
This is about as truthful as I can be, I miss my father, I wish I could have been a better son, I was not, I was a piece of crap as a son. I should have done better. But I know he forgives me, that is my earthy father, he was like that, God not so much, I doubt He will ever forgive me. He could learn from my earthy father. I still find that rather strange. I really do. Offered for what its worth. I have gutted myself on this one. pretty much shown my entire hand but I want it to help others. I really do.
It’s funny – why do people shy away from saying they have a career in ministry. I work in the loan business – every single pastor I have ever done a loan for put down his church as his employer and puts down pastor as his “job title”
Not a single one has ever filled out the application and listed his employer as God.
It’s all yours today…
http://www.voiceofthevoiceless.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/74596-VOTV-Invite-1-2.jpg
http://thisisnthappiness.com/post/99061230819/outside-the-box
G,
That’s pretty cool.
I don’t comment here very often anymore, but I had to get this off my chest.
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2014/10/04/jason-stellmans-unmitigated-disaster/
I hope you’re happy, White. Hide behind your religion and your piousness all you want, the only reason you had to post something like this was to take a shot at Spellman.
Your brand of Reformed Calvinism smells so much like a tomb that all the bleach and perfume in the world can’t whitewash the smell out of.
Thx London!
God has put himself in a box – we are to be in the box with him. Why does that not satisfy people?
MLD. Who said anything about God being the box?
The box in G’s graphic isn’t labeled.
London – 1st, I didn’t say God was the box – 2nd who said my comment was about G’s cartoon? Please, read within the box.
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/48/05/84/480584a574f23cf6b9618fe93fc8d228.jpg
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/9d/0e/de/9d0edec78c868b1d78aac8a8a4e1ac1a.jpg
http://faithnfrivolity.tumblr.com/post/99157497396
As followers of Jesus the issue is always revealed faith. Jesus revealed the father. When the world of Jesus day decided to reshape marriage according to their desire to get out of the box Jesus reminded them that the marriage box was from his Father… “from the beginning…”
I am not sure how reshaped boxes trump divine revelation. Of course we can always say Jesus was wrong or that he didn’t know or that we have greater revelations of the Father than Jesus gave us, or… we could repent. Seems like repentance was the way out.
Dudes, lighten up. I found some cool graphics about thinking out of boxes, posted them, clipped them. Our corp-speak is about box-free thinking and as I work for an org supporting nurses the big thing is Ebola and the fail in Dallas. The hospital stayed within too many boxes and released the guy…
The people who leave your church, what happens to them?
They transfer to another church in town?
They fall away from the Lord?
They move to another town?
They die?
Percentage, guesses, wild speculation, ANYTHING could help me….
I would guess
65% 15% 15% 5%
wild guess
“The hospital stayed within too many boxes and released the guy…”
Some of us would say that had they kept their thinking within the box, they would have tested him for ebola..
From a corporate background I find people who advocate thinking outside the box, really want you thinking within their box.
Thinking inside the box says end entry of all travel originating in West Africa.Thinking outside the box means you are thinking with the Obama administration and refusing to think rationally.
I will say that I am glad Baby Doc has left this existence.
Does anyone else think it non coincidental that for the past several years we have been letting all these Central American kids in the country unchecked and now we have all these strange diseases running throughout our schools?
I read the other day 70% have not shown up for their court appointments – – – imagine my surprise.
G- having spent a little time in the health care arena both professionally and as a family member of patients, I think the ER if that hospital acted exactly within their box.
Not the correct box, but their box.
It doesn’t surprise me one little bit that they sent him out with just a script for antibiotics. Not one bit.
Not a surprise that they didnt pass the message of his travel to each other either.
I’ve worked the ER and see things like that way too often.
BTW- live the Dilbert strip on that link.
So true…
BrianD…I remember back in the Wild West days of PP, Jason and I had some intense conversations about our faith and theology. I was so candid, people were telling me to resign my post, lol. Jason was one of the more passionate critics of mine….only to later adhere to what I was espousing. I was shocked when he converted to the RCC due to our interactions. Now, looking back I see he was passionate in arguing because he was himself wavering about these things. And I, myself, have nuanced some of my views since then….maybe just the natural order of things when it comes to this journey.
http://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/entry/national-nurse-survey-shows-hospitals-still-not-prepared-for-us-ebola/
I cannot adequately express my intense dislike of James White.
Rachael Maddow’s Friday night episode does a great job of telling the story and an interview with Dr. Irwin Redletter, Director for the National Center for Disaster Preparedness at Colombia University addresses how unprepared our healthcare system is for this pathogen. One of the glaring issues is that no one thought to think out of the box and alert anyone that the patient was a risk
It was apparently written in the EHR. (Electronic health record). The doc should have read it.
I’d be very interested to see what system they are using. Alerts like that are usually hard to miss. Unless they didnt use an alert.
There’s so many ways those systems work…
Also, with universal precautions, and other policies they should have in place for other diseases, there’s no excuse for a facility to not be ready for this particular issue.
The triage nurse should have dropped everything when Ebola-ish symptoms were presenting from a guy who said he had just returned from Africa. She should have picked up the phone and mobilized their emergency protocols
…but that would have been thinking out of the box
“She should have picked up the phone and mobilized their emergency protocols”
Sorry G, but as soon as you say “she should have…” that implies there is a box in which she should be thinking. The “emergency protocols” are that box.
These folk apparently ignored the box and decided to think outside the box – ignore protocol and send the patient home
I found the James White article on Jason quite disturbing, too. While I certainly don’t agree with where Jason currently is in his faith journey as I think the RCC system is filled with a lot of errors, the way White chose to write about him was unnecessary and unloving, to say it nicely. Here Jason is expressing his hurts and White just comes along and kicks him while he’s down. Sheesh.
Kevin I found it rather sad myself, but it seems they have to prove they are right.
A few years ago, in another part of the Internet, I was harassed by some really obnoxious people who turned out to be members of White’s Sunday School class. He really believes he’s the bee’s knees of Protestant apologetics and has a band of devoted followers. Really very unpleasant people, the whole lot of them.
I understand Jason’s complaints although I don’t expect a triumphalist like White to understand. Jason said humanly speaking, he gave up a lot: his friends, his job, worshiping with his family.
Same thing happened with me, by the way, in a gentler way. I lost all my CC friends but it’s not their fault- I left them, they didn’t leave me. Unfortunately, we find ourselves quite awkward when we meet in the store as they think I have joined a non-Christian cult. I was permitted to keep my job at the CC high school, but after a year it became obvious (to me at least) that is wasn’t working. So I quite. Again, not their fault. And I am always invited to attend my kids’ evangelical church services but they no longer appeal to me. Again, not their fault.
So while it is true that Jason and I both gave up a lot, it was our decisions. It can still be painful, though, even if it was the right decision to make. Ruminating about it in public in the presence of the kind of vultures that Jason’s decision has attracted took some guts.
I think I am happier with my new (12 years now) Church than Jason is with his. I have fully embraced the Orthodox culture while Jason still writes about being a misfit, etc.
But White does not understand any of these things. He’s got a religious formula and a platform and a passel of adherents who think he’s The Best.
May God bless and strengthen Jason.
MLD,
I’m not interested in your blog drama, butt out of my conversation with London
G,
No,
I was not in your conversation with London – I was in your conversation with the entire blog.
Just ignore my comments about your comments.
G,
They didnt need to pick up the phone cause it was right there in the notes.
But, having said that, without knowing what other types of patients they were dealing with at the same time, MVA, GSW, Heart Attack etc, its hard to say what happened.
For all we know, the nurse may have told the doc but the doc didnt really hear it.
However, I agree that they need some kind of protocol for infectious disease.
London wrote @ # 20:
It doesn’t surprise me one little bit that they sent him out with just a script for antibiotics. Not one bit.
Not a surprise that they didnt pass the message of his travel to each other either.
I’ve worked the ER and see things like that way too often.
And who will be held accountable for the idiocy of the Dallas authorities if they fail to contain this thing from here on out? If this thing gets out of control because they are too timid (for political reasons with regard to West African travelers) to enforce quarantine protocol, there will be backlash and blowback not even seen in the wake of the 9/11 disaster.
MLD and G are acting like little boys
I have pretty much shown myself to be a spiritual prostitute as one brother said to me, but I would never leave a friend if they changed communions. My sister got in alot of trouble in her life, and it really cost me, big time. But when she was sick she was my sister. I just could not do what Jesus said that if I love family more than him I am not worthy of him. I just could not abandon her even if it meant my soul, if I ever actually had one. God this faith is just so tiring.
http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/
Prevents broadcasting a patients condition in most instances. The fear of lawsuits can help the spread of Ebola if patients are sent away; back into the world at large and no one gets warned…
A very real scenario.
HIPAA has provisions for instances of public health concerns.
The healthcare system is about money.If you have insurance that pays well….you will get treated to the hilt.No Insurance or lots of cash to pay up front you will get the minimum and sent home……..
It’s not that cut and dry
I’ve worked in emergency rooms at various points in my career. It is controlled chaos. ERs are dealing with everything from severe heart attacks and auto accident trauma to people with a bad head cold. And they all want, need, and demand instant action.
You won’t find a better working team than the doctors and nurses and administrators in an emergency room in most cases. It is almost a ballet in the subtle interaction of the medical staff. You realize that a mistake can have very, very dire consequences, so the level of professionalism is great, as is the level of stress. I’ve loved and hated every minute when a life critical emergency is being handled. It is literally life or death. Some times, after a shift, I couldn’t sleep at all even though I was exhausted.
Modern computer systems are a great assistance, but, as the saying goes, to error is human, to really foul up requires a computer. Computers have no intelligence and garbage in / garbage out is the rule. Then there’s the new system that changed everything and users are not familiar with the latest version, revision, or whiz-bang wonder technology that got sold to the hospital officials that don’t know how to put on a band aid. But I digress.
JU, I’ve worked in them as well so agree with the controlled chaos and dance examples.
I work in Healthsystems IT now, so don’t agree much about blaming the system.
Latest industry email I got said the info was in the system properly for this patient.
Somehow, it got missed.
We both know it’s not that weird for someone to be sent out of ER, particularly or a busy day, with less than the correct dx and told to follow up with their primary.
The real question is about the culture of the hospital. This week I can anticipate nursing organizations informing their members of the need to be bold, take initiate to alert their peers of high risk indicators such as a sick traveler returning from an Ebola impacted region and escalating the issue to highest management and the CDC.
Sadly it’s up to diligent individuals to take career impacting risks.
I spent much of today reading about Jason Stellman’s original “conversion” to the RCC. Now I am sure his leaving his old denomination. Its hard to see how one can really have any dialog. It was actually very awful to see.
G, yes. That is the question.
I know this may well be misunderstood, its the best I have. This is my father
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=27042951
He made many mistakes, he had many regrets, and I was there with him when he was suffering and I was there with him when he died. Well almost you see a rather substantial earthquake hit back on that day. I was looking for my mother and my nephew when that EQ hit. The last time I saw my father alive was when he was in the recovery room at El Camino Hospital. He was asleep all wrapped up and I was enlisted in carrying folks up and down the stairs for a few hours. I did not know this at the time but my mother was near by but I had to get home to see to our house and to try to find my nephew in this emergency. He disappeared do to the emergency. I will refrain from my usual rhetoric, I could not save my father, I hate myself for that, and to my dying day did not. I did try. I guess that is why I struggle.
This is about as truthful as I can be, I miss my father, I wish I could have been a better son, I was not, I was a piece of crap as a son. I should have done better. But I know he forgives me, that is my earthy father, he was like that, God not so much, I doubt He will ever forgive me. He could learn from my earthy father. I still find that rather strange. I really do. Offered for what its worth. I have gutted myself on this one. pretty much shown my entire hand but I want it to help others. I really do.
In the spirit of Open Blogging:
I am surrounded by good men who are 60 and broke, generally because in their youth they bet on a career in the ministry.
How many would make that same choice now ….
What have we learned, and how should we be guiding our zealous young people now?
I came close once. As I was wrestling with it, The Lord said to me, Are you ready to pupate?
I did not know what that meant. Had to look it up.
“they bet on a career in the ministry.”
It is not a “career.”
You just nailed one of the major issues in all organized religion, men and women enter them, often the best of intentions, as a “career.”
If peopl want to make money go do something else.
God freely gave His Word so freely it should be given.
It’s funny – why do people shy away from saying they have a career in ministry. I work in the loan business – every single pastor I have ever done a loan for put down his church as his employer and puts down pastor as his “job title”
Not a single one has ever filled out the application and listed his employer as God.