Looking forward to creating something beautiful in the studio tonight.
Bring some beauty to the world, just as you are, without making a “purpose statement”. Just create and be. It follows that since you and I are created in God’s image, we will, therefore, create beauty where there was none, order from chaos, form where void dominates, light and colour where emptiness have been.
Make music, sing and let your voice be heard.
Be free to be yourself, not requiring a religious sentiment or tagline “in the name of the Lord”, because everything you do reflects your Creator.
http://www.adamwhitley.com/ – Check out my back and forth with Ken Silva (Apprising.org). Search for “Apprising” and you’ll find all three posts neatly laid out for you.
Erunner, adding my congratulations and thanks for the music link as i listen to one of my favorite hymns of wonder sung by a pure beautiful voice as i type here
How wealthy was Jesus? And please do not give me the analysis of his deity and owning everything…. asked another way. How wealthy was the Jesus of history?
BD, define “wealthy” ? the man didn’t depend on a stash of Roman coins, that’s for sure… but now you’ve got me thinking about hoarding vs prudence vs … dunno … think i’ll go make a pot of coffee…………
He was a normal man from Galilee, therefore He had his needs met through the work of His hands and the provision of God. Additionally as a traveling Rabbi people gave Him and His Talmidim (disciples) food and funds to live on. Rabbinical tradition says He would never have excepted funds for the teaching of the Torah.
Now do you want the allegorical super spiritual response?
I want to know about coin…. human physical resources for daily life, was he poor? was he wealthy? don’t want to hear about cattle on a thousand hills …
before i go make coffee and lose the thot
for some reason the prayer/supplication “give us this day our daily bread” always makes me think of John the Baptist …
BD…He was a carpenter…then a “pastor/evangelist” if you will…provided for by the giving of others…He appeared to be lower-middle class from a worldly perspective…had his needs met…but not in excess…not poor, not rich.
The home where the roof was removed for the paralytic was HIS home….look at the text.
Ever met a homeless carpenter?
The Bible said He did “all things well”….ever met a poor carpenter that was EXCELLENT in his craft?
How many wise men brought gold and myrrh and frankincense? And how much was THAT worth? And do you know anyone raised by godly parents who doesn’t GROW in wealth, especially once they are given tremendous wealth for their firstborn child?
Ever met a guy WITHOUT a TREASURE who had a TREASURER? ‘Cause Jesus had one! And Judas took A LOT of money and it wasn’t obvious to all he was taking anything….
BD,
without going back and looking at everything again, my initial take is that he was self-sufficient until entering his ‘public ministry’ and during that time he relied on the provision of both patrons and God. There is no evidence that he turned rocks into bread when he was hungry, but he multiplied loaves and fish to feed the multitude. He did warn a potential disciple that foxes have holes, but the son of man has no place to lay his head. His divine power was used to summon (?) a fish with a coin in its mouth to pay taxes, but there is no evidence he did so with other needs. My take is He was completely poor in terms of human measures of wealth–down to the fact that his only possession was his garment–but He epitomizes the measure of being ‘rich toward God.’
Now BD is also asking what kind of “coin” Jesus might have had.
The problem is there were three kinds of “coin” in His day, the Roman, The Temple tax and the official Herod mint. Of course there was silver and gold, but the common man had very little of it.
Also Jesus was a, “Tekton” and He lived in a area not known for its wood work but their skill with stone. Also if you look at any pictures of Galilee wood is not a prominent source of building materials. So a man who was skilled in working with stone is also called a “stumbling stone,” “rejected stone,” and “corner stone.” Also don’t forget His saying, “upon this rock I will build…”
As far as how much “coin” He had, check out the feeding of the 5000, they didn’t have much.
Of course BD is not trying to actually talk about how much money Jesus had, rather he is baiting everyone for some other point.
Lest anyone quickly label me a fat-cat prosperity dude (who obviously doesn’t know me too well),
Jesus did NOT spend His money (of which I say He had quite a bit) on fancy chariots and clothes like many rich ministers do today, or extravagent meals….
He did have a ministry staff of 12 people, much less the 70…
Years ago I thought Michael had a gmail address listed on the blog. I can’t find it here, though I see where to click for facebook and twitter. Is there still a way to contact him by old-fashioned email?
JTK:
I “un-friended” someone because she was blaspheming and mocking the Lord. Although I tried to have a dialogue with her, it just got worse and I had enough. I never heard from her again.
I have “hidden” others as I am just not interested in the junk they post and don’t want to see it or it to be shown on my wall.
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.
Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.”
No I do not think him rich… but many attempt to make a case for it from inference…
Truthfully what we know is that money was not a scandal in his hands… some infer from his seamless Robe, his birth gifts, and his large entourage that perhaps he was of some means. I am unconvinced.
And I wanted to see what others thought… I actually raised an issue to learn the ideas of others. As for his being a carpenter … probably he was..but it was worth seeing if anyone else thought perhaps not… it is not of much significance.
His teachings on money are plain enough to understand his attitudes about money.
gold, frankincense and myrrh – for some reason i thot that those gifts financed their trip to Egypt? does anyone know the cash 🙂 value?
i mentioned John the Baptist this AM as he seemed like the perfect example of a man with a mission (sold out to God) – Paul next in line – but they are not to be our role models, i don’t think… except to humble us greatly in our self centeredness – speaking for myself there
and can’t one say that Judas was left holding the bag (of money)?
MB, you gave your little Barney the thing that is most important and satisfying to a doggie – she was accepted in the pack … at least that’s how i think a dog thinks … and it is interesting to see their personality traits blossom when they’re relaxed and accepted in their very own pack …
kind of like us, eh? i suspect that our Creator expected the animal kingdom to teach us a lot about raw emotion – the good and the bad – just what i suspect, dunno…
Here is one for you, Jesus was average or below in looks:
Isaiah 53:2 says, “He has no stately form or majesty, That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.” He must not have had Benny Hinn’s hair either.
In fact, Jesus was so ordinary in appearance that the Pharisees had to pay someone (Judas) to point Him out in a crowd. He must not have had a glow about Him like He is shown in the movies either, otherwise the Pharisees would have just told the guards to go and get the one who glows…
KEN SILVA IS EMERGENT, it is obvious. He refuses to love the brethren as we are commanded to do and thus he is still walking in the darkness (1 John 2:9).
Holly….when we put our dog down last month my pastor emailed me and said that because Revelation refers to Jesus returning on a white horse that there will be animals in heaven 😉 (he wasn’t making a firm argument theologically, but gave it as a word of encouragement.)
“#1– Was Riptide and the Calvary Celebration one and the same event?
Heitzig threw a bash to celebrate Chuck in conjunction with launching his new movie…great promotional strategy.
#2: Who produced Riptide/Calvary Celebration?
Heitzig.
#3: Michael: “Heitzigs actions do not reflect any sort of integrity or godliness, but are the cowardly reactions of what he is, a pure opportunist.”
What is an “opportunist”? I’ve never heard that term before.
See #1.
An “opportunist” in the context Michael used…is one who looks for opportunities for self-promotion…like dove-tailing a “celebration and tribute to Chuck Smith”…as a draw and as publicity (and to lend credibility) to launching his new movie endeavor. Great Self-Promoters are often “opportunists”…Think Don King or Donald Trump…or even Richard Branson.
#4: Why is Bob Grenier pictured? Is he still a CC pastor??”
Good question…and why right next to Chuck Smith…either Chuck isn’t aware of what’s going on or is gracing over another very bad situation. If he is aware and is purposefully choosing to endorse Bob…which it appears he is…as he’ll be rededicating Calvary Visalia on July 8th…then I am severely stumbled and disappointed.
In Economics you learn the basic concept of “Opportunity Cost”. By choosing Opportunity 1 you gain whatever benefit comes with that choice but you forgo the benefits that come with Opportunities 2 and 3. What you loose by forgoing your other options is your Opportunity Cost.
The concept is supposed to teach how to evaluate and assess the various options and choices one has.
In order to appear “gracious” and “affirming” of your affiliated pastors you incur the cost of evil remaining unopposed in the lives of your pastors and you incur the cost of the ruin of God’s people under your watch which the Lord will not ignore your share of that accountability of their ruin nor buy your rationalizations on the day of accounting before Him.
First, I’ll address the pets in heaven query.
I have a theory…
Certain emotions and attachments are hardwired into us, just as the Law is written on our hearts.
My theory is that we wouldn’t have this near universal attachment to our pets if it wasn’t from God…and if all creation is to be redeemed…then the new heavens and the new earth will be a time when we enjoy the company of the pets God gave us once again.
I have absolutely no Scriptural basis for this…it’s an inference and a subjective opinion based on my understanding of the goodness of God and His joy in our joy.
As to Heitzig…his discontent with ABQ is well known, but at this point I’m sharing an informed opinion on the future, not a sourced story.
As long as he stays out of God’s country I don’t care a great deal…
Michael, as long as Chuck is alive (which imo is the reason he is alive from a ministerial perspective) he has opportunity to do good and face up to the wrong he has allowed to transpire. In His Moses model He has shunned the counsel of those who are peers and true elders of his generation and had the perspective of history and the maturity of character to work together with Him to deal with these issues starting with shame of face before the Lord rather than saving face before man.
He is free to make his choices, but he is not free to determine the outcomes.
just in response to CA is BANKRUPT by M*B… one of the many reasons why
FYI CA increases (or did 2 yrs ago) overall state income by approx 26% each year, however, it increases just it’s welfare/social service costs by 24% every year in the past 5 fiscal yrs.
did you know this small budget cost: Juvenile Dependency Courts (300) of CA (this is CPS branch, does not include costs of the Juvenile Criminal court (600)) in one southern CA city alone that runs 3 dependency courts (this is just the city, not total county and not the largest county in CA by the way) 30 cases each day in 3 courts, everyone, mother, father, children and social wkr has an appointed attorney in every case… plus a court approved translator in ANY language… now there will be 1 mother, perhaps 5 kids and say 4 different fathers… each father with a child in any one case has an attorney appointed to him… these are taxpayer paid attorneys… i was more than a bit taken aback at the costs of just the court expenses… this does not include the housing, mental counseling costs for each child and parent, medical, dental, transportation and frequently the out of home care in group home or foster homes required for each case… add the courtroom costs of the judge, clerks, court reporter and adjunct court clerks…. this is only the court costs for one aspect of our welfare assistance… multiply these costs for 30 cases x’s 3 x 4 days a week for one city times all the cities in CA and number of 300 courts running, i don’t know what the resolution for this is, i do know that it is deemed against a woman’s civil rights to require fully reversable Norplant to prevent conception of another child to be legally removed from a woman… even after she has had 2 or more minor children removed from her care. Legal or illegal immigrant status was not a consideration for provided services… i am a total bleeding heart for victims and yet i also support the permanent removal of any child 3 yrs or younger after 6 mths from a parent that does nothing to rehabilitate in hopes of offering that child a chance…it is 12 mths if child is 3 yrs or older… the child has the same standing in Juvenile court as an adult, therefore an abused child is “asked” you want to live w your Mom/Dad or the foster family that has loved/supported/parented you the last 2 yrs of your life…what adult can navigate such a choice?! Then there are the ‘foster homes’ that are run by people who do NOT speak any english w english speaking children… average paymt for group home child is $550 a month plus medical/dental paid it goes higher. to $1500 if higher need level now being courted by SEIU for unionization LOTS of loving, caring social wkrs, attorneys, foster parents, group home FAA ‘s out there but are being overwhelmed by corruption and money in the system
okay…. sigh makes me crazy when good intentions and money gets warped by the system and why CA is going bankrupt and so many of us NATIVES and responsible citizens have fled the state yes Gov.’s proposed budget cuts will impact these children..but it is cutting things like 300 court cutting covering costs of band, choir, dance and sports participation deemed a requirement of the state to these children (the state is their legal parent as wards of the state) and minor mothers in system w child are now being provided visitation family maintance w father of their child(ren) do to unintended consequences of new legislation to help sustain contact between father and mother of said minor child, whether child is included in that ‘contact’ w the father of the child or not.
Michael, that is sad. I need to learn to weep in my disgust. However if those in so called power will not see to it that wrong is addressed today, what makes them think they will be capable of doing right in a way that truly validates and addresses wrong tomorrow.
Do they not realize that the enemy has been given ground and allowed to establish strongholds that can only be brought into subjection and unto the obedience of Christ with the weapons provided to us in Christ.
If they will not use those weapons today, what makes them presume that God will count them faithful and therefore capable of being entrusted to use those weapons in their hands on the day “They” choose to address wrong.
But then again, maybe “they” view the solution as just another marketing and public relations campaign. ( I use “they” because these men have never been identified nor stepped forth amongst the other pastors and elders much less the people of God to be so identified)
JTK: Seriously. Jesus had lots of money? He relied on the donations of women. He told the seventy to be content with the provisions of the household that welcomed Him. He borrowed [not repossessed a donkey (that incidentally He created).
In regards to whatever gold may have been passed to Him in his infancy from the men of the East; that would have been used for the family exile in Egypt. They would have required lodging and provision while Joseph had to forgo the exercise of his trade in Nazareth and the accompanying income.
#89 M*B and that’s only the child protective services (CPS) aspect of the CA budget, does not address the educational, criminal, juvenile and adult, medical expenses costs…and the underfunded pensions, CA is so BANKRUPT
#85 Brian asks “what is your most troubling struggle concerning the Christian faith?”
in what other relationship are we asked, at times for years, to continue in loyalty and consistency, w experiences of denigration, loss of position in family, community, socially, professionally, w/out any acknowledgement that we can perceived within our physical human form of senses, that we proceed with His awareness, let alone a sense of approval, acknowledgement and affection/love, except reading in His Word (which brings up the issues of the viability of man’s self serving translations of Scriptures) even within the very “fellowship” of said believers, I am a very independent and strong individual, blessed by our Heavenly Father with such an attribute… i continue to function on my knowledge, previous human sense connection to Christ decade past or more, and i cannot deny my faith, hope and a core sense that i ‘know’ HIM (even raised as a Buddhist as a child i knew there was something else)
this is my greatest struggle :that is between me, God and now you at PP 🙂 guess you can understand why finding you all is definitely important My even breathing, demonstrating such ‘thoughts’ would have a destructive impact on my significant others ministries around me… i know there are many, many more of “me” but it is NOT safe in the church i function in…especially w a very active ODM presence in positions of power
It seems to me that the ODMs today have become much like the Judaisers in the early church. They come in and cause division saying that there is another standard for salvation or orthodoxy, that it is not enough to just have faith in Christ to be saved. The Judaisers came to Antioch and declared that it was not enough to have faith in Christ to be saved that there were other things that one must do, one must keep some of the tenets of Judaism including circumcision. Many followed them because they seemed to be more strict than the church leaders in following the word to the letter.
Len Sweet’s situation is a case in point. Len clearly addressed the accusations that the ODMs had made about him declaring the simplicity of his faith in Christ, and even he stated that he had been misunderstood because he was trying to reach pomos with his books, not be a pomo. But, that wasn’t good enough for the ODMs. Evidently, the case against Len is that he uses words they don’t understand and have to look up in a dictionary (what else could it be?).
Just like the Judaisers of the early church, the ODMs do not have love for the brethren. Their decrees of condemnation are more important to keep than for them to stand for the truth and exonerate a brother wrongly accused. Truly it is they who have departed from the faith by setting up their own standards (saying these are clear yet they can’t even produce an accusation of Len for which they have condemned him). It is they who have no life in themselves because they refuse to practice love for the brethren. I’m not saying that there are not those who truly are emergent in the church (Brian MacLaren, etc.), but the ODMs are every bit as emergent themselves.
The ODMs condemnation statements being based upon disagreeing with their judgments (such as happened recently with Newnham who was called emergent for his threads), guilt by association (such as happened earlier this year when Greg Laurie and Chuck Smith were called emergent for doing evangelism with Rick Warren–a man they had already condemned as emergent, or pastor Heitzig for allowing a worship conference at his church in which Len Sweet would speak, all of their decrees remind me of the judgments decreed by the Judaisers that Paul wrote about, such as this one to the Colossians:
Colossians 2:20-23, “If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.”
The ODMs are adding to the scriptures their own standards for accepting one’s salvation or orthodoxy. They fit right alongside MacLaren as emergent.
Oh, and forgot to include another of the standards for orthodoxy: what book(s) you might read. “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” The Judaisers also wanted to think for the church just like the ODMs today.
🙂 boy ShowMeWhere,, you’re gonna get labled/compartmentalized now lol (:
i know they believe/think they are serving a purpose, i can only gentally and consistently keep reminding that we are accountable to God independently… i just hope the balance doesn’t completely tip in my church it will put me in a very strange position in opposition w some i cannot be so publically
ShowMeWhere… i question if a few of them even own or have access to dictionaries let alone use them i think they stop reading when thoughts and words transcend their comprehension one still had that old bumpersticker about KJV being good enough for Paul and Silus (insert rolling eyes here) until he overheard a few of our youth discussing how funny they thought it was
MB asked, “OK, not to beat a dead horse, but….if SH doesn’t like ABQ and his “discontent is well known” — why did he come *back* to ABQ, then? Seems like a really hard thing to put all these people through at ABQ — for him to come back, and then leave *again.* ”
Because in order for the Skipper to be “relevant” and to be a “Big Guy” in CC…he requires lots of butts in seats…and lots of money…and lots of popularity.
When he went to SoCal…he entered into a situation where he was not received as a “Super Star”…the situation was not a good “fit”…and being an “opportunist”…as IMO Michael astutely observes about him…and I believe he is also a bit of a realist and a shrewd businessman…he quickly realized he was in trouble.
So…back to ABQ where he is a “star”…and where his “formula” works.
Pay no mind that his lack of Character deeply hurt many people…including a really good guy like Pete…but, they don’t matter…”God is at work…and Skip is ‘anointed’…”…but, I guess the other people aren’t? I guess when Pete got “touched” he was not “God’s anointed”…???
Interesting…I’d really like to meet the person within CC who makes the “anointed” determination. That is a pretty powerful person. Kind of like an OT King…or like Moses?
Back to the Skipper story…he goes back to ABQ….with butts back in seats…money coming in…to fund things like radio programs and movies…etc. Bang, he’s a “star” again…and back on track.
But, make no mistake…he likes the scene in Cali very much…and can taste the day he will return and compete as one of the many who will seek to fill the void left by Chuck.
Somehow God uses some of these guys…but if people are really honest about the way things are under the veneer…it sure isn’t very Spiritual a lot of the time.
The big take-away for me is…the Ends don’t justify the Means.
God does lead people…and a guy like Skip is certainly not 100% evil…but he’s also not 100% good either…he’s attached to the flesh, just like the rest of us.
Just because Skip is perceived as “anointed”…does not excuse…nor should it EVER excuse…poor Character…lying, cheating financially, mistreating others, going back on your word…etc.
If the Skipper wants a new Revival…a Fresh Wave…all he has to do is look in the mirror and start with himself.
Then he needs to go to a few of his buddies and encourage them to repent as well.
One other point of clarification on another subject:
Roger Wing has “some” of the testimonies regarding Bob and Calvary Visalia…not all of them (though he has plenty). And, he does not have the long list of people who haven’t yet documented their testimonies…but will share if they feel it’s safe to do so.
There has been a little “chatter” that the group is only 15 to 20 families (including former staff members, family members and long-time non-member members) who are sharing testimony about Bob…the list is significantly longer…and more and more people are coming forward (privately). Many are afraid to document their testimony…but they have pledged their support and have shared that they are in much agreement about Bob and the CCV situation. New people continue to contact me.
There are many who were abused sexually and physically in their home within the Evangelical Community who are encouraged by the stand being taken regarding the Bob situation. They are happy to see the issue being discussed in the Church context…especially when it is a Calvary Chapel pastor.
Chuck is very much sending the wrong message if he is aware that Bob is an accused Child Abuser…with a Police Report on file from two of Bob’s sons at the Visalia Police Department…corroborated by a third brother…with Detective Bill Diltz of VPD having interviewed people besides the three brothers who corroborate Child Abuse…
Child Abuse in the Church is not OK. Endorsing an accused Calvary Chapel pastor who has committed felony Child Abuse…but the statute has simply run out…is NOT OK. It enables abuse and sends the wrong message.
Chuck Smith…do you really want this issue to be a part of your legacy? Calvary Chapel…do you really want this issue to be a part of your legacy?
“It seems to me that the ODMs today have become much like the Judaisers in the early church. They come in and cause division saying that there is another standard for salvation or orthodoxy, that it is not enough to just have faith in Christ to be saved.”
Which reminded me of the old argument and question of how are we to live if Jesus is our Lord?
It can be compared to the man who didn’t know that the traffic laws in his recently adopted city stated you couldn’t make a right turn on a red. When he was pulled over by the police officer and was asked if he knew why he had been stopped? The man answered, “no I’m new to this city.” The officer let him go with a warning.
Now anther man who had grown up in the city did the same thing, a right turn on red, and was also pulled over by the Police. When he was asked about his knowledge of the traffic law this man responded, “yes I knew but people turn right at this intersection all the time.” The Officer gave this man a ticket and a fine.
Once one, who claims Jesus as Lord, learns that certain things are clearly wrong can he or she continue in them?
“Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.”
James 4:17
the saddest result of the ODM way of policing the Faith is that they’re sending the unintended message that the plan of God won’t hold up to honest dialog…
on the other extreme end…
right now i’m coming off of reading “The Christ of the Indian Road” with a concern that E Stanley Jones made a mistake – going overboard in his enthusiasm for what he thought he saw happening in India: the country wanted, was on the brink of embracing, our Christ, but not our institutional Christianity. That was a good thing, but in doing so they were slip-sliding around that offensive mysterious miracle of the cross: “…My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” “He who knew no sin, became sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” Christ did not overcome evil with passivity.
“the saddest result of the ODM way of policing the Faith is that they’re sending the unintended message that the plan of God won’t hold up to honest dialog…”
Yep…and they tacitly deny that God will keep His own safe…
Sarah, you asked about my mom. She is doing beautifully! She will not have to have chemo or radiation as the surgeon believes he got all the cancer. She just needs to heal up from the drastic surgery and a large scar. She and I had such a blessed time together. Devotions each morning and such sweet times together. That trip was a gift from the Lord to us both. Plus the bonus of getting to see my children and 6 grandchildren!!
Thanks to you all for praying.
I’m jumping threads as I saw your note to me! Hey, no worries at all, and hope to see you next time! How happy I am to hear about your mom doing so well. I can only imagine how happy your family was to see you! 🙂 You are one blessed Nonnie! (grandma) 🙂
I’m going to throw out a thought that came to my mind today. Who knows, it’s just a thought?
How many times have we heard that “legalism” can kill a church? I can’t even count how many times. Maybe the reality is that many church, in fact, are alive because of legalism. It seems that people need rules to keep, or they just can’t function.
I am really troubled by the tenor of judgment that seems to be pervading American Christianity. Church people are so busy telling each other what they can and cannot do, that they are making a mockery of our faith.
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Do all things without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. Philippians 2;12-16 [ESV]
DavidH, interesting… a couple things to chew on – mebbe more, eh? rules for @ Believer’s conduct, rules of Doctrinal principles, rules of order of service and serving…
but i wonder -why it is so hard for the Church to concentrate on the Lord, Himself, the reality of the indwelling Christ, the work of the Holy Spirit?
pondering at the keys 😕
“I think he ought to follow his heart and go to where he is happiest. I think Skip ought to prove by practice the words of Christ and the Apostle Paul. “It is more blessed to give then to receive.”
Well….Skip may get the desires of his heart. Have absolutely no idea….but we talked this morning about Pharoah and his hardened heart. We talked about how half of the times his heart being hardened is mentioned, the causal agent is God. The other half refer to Pharoah as the agent. Our pastor said he believes basically God gave him what he wanted…to not have to worship God and to be his own god.
Sometimes, getting what we want is not the best idea.
I am really struggling with what you mentioned. So many churches claim to be “Bible believing,” etc. I have yet to find anywhere in the Bible, except the Old Testament, where we get “rules for order of service,” “rules of conduct,” and such. In a way Paul deals with rules of service in 1 and 2 Timothy, but those are rather straight forward.
I’m just throwing out these ideas.
I’m really starting to think that “fundamentalism” of the last century caused a lot of damage. As a friend of mine said “wooden fundamentalism” in any ideology poses a danger. Many Christians have become so reactionary that it scares me. We need to become proactive instead of reactionary. That’s what astounds me about the ODMs, is that they spend so much time reacting to others. They don’t, ultimately provide any real solutions.
….but we talked this morning about Pharoah and his hardened heart. We talked about how half of the times his heart being hardened is mentioned, the causal agent is God. The other half refer to Pharoah as the agent.
————————————————-
Just for my curiosity Sarah, did your pastor say which of the two ‘hardenings’ came first?
He has pointed out that God has hardened Pharoah’s heart…that God absolutely is the agent in some of the verses referring to hardening. I don’t remember him saying that God was the first, or Pharoah…..however he does point to the fact that Pharoah is known to have been fairly brutal, which would lend itself to believing he hardened his heart.
It is tough..and so I am always curious how another teaches it. My Calvinist friends tend to run to this passage, or more specifically the Romans reference to this passage as if it was a loaded gun and I was an Al Qaeda member.
Actually, it emphasizes both human responsibility and the sovereignty of God with God being the causal agent of all…but without taking away human responsibility.
‘I am really troubled by the tenor of judgment that seems to be pervading American Christianity. Church people are so busy telling each other what they can and cannot do, that they are making a mockery of our faith.
DavidH,
Here are a couple of my thoughts.
From a Lutheran point of view, the church focuses on ‘judgment’ when it fails to recognize the difference between Law and Gospel. When messages become focused on our behavior instead of what God has done for us in Christ — self-help sermons sugarcoated with ‘Christianese — a judging mentality is often not far behind.
When Law and Gospel, aren’t distinguished, you often wind up with a muddled mess — self-satisfied pastors and believers happy when they think they’re obeying God’s law but miserable and judgmental when they’re ‘failing.’
Christians forget that they need the Gospel daily, even after they’re in the Kingdom. Luther said that repentance in the Christian life is a daily thing. The Gospel of God’s grace and mercy in Christ needs to be front and center throughout all the Christian’s life.
We would also posit that everyone deep down, the Christian saint/sinner, too, ‘likes’ Law — following rules, etc. is a way we ‘justify’ ourselves and look good in our own eyes and in others’, instead of abandoning ourselves to the mercy of God. It always grieves me, but doesn’t surprise me, when Christian groups start meandering toward a law-based faith. Then watch the judgment of others accelerate!
These are just a few random thoughts. God bless you.
One other thought about the Phil. 2 passage you quoted, I believe the key is the phrase “God works in you…” This is a dynamic of the Reformation churches, Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Anglicanism — that God is the agent, He is the One who acts — his Word and his acts go together — He acts, we respond. That’s the very structure of a Lutheran worship service, and I assume of Anglican and Reformed, too. He is at the center, not us and our feeble, sinful actions.
When placing your bets, always place them on God and not on yourself!
MIchael as you no doubt know, I am not a synergist (as commonly defined).
And it is crap like this that makes me not like reading Sproul. Talk about your strawmen.
” It has faith preceding regeneration. The sinner, who is dead in sin and in bondage to sin, must somehow shed his chains, revive his spiritual vitality, and exercise faith so that he or she may be born again. In a very real sense regeneration is not so much a gift in this schema as it is a reward for responding to the offer of grace”
The idea that the sinner must revive his spiritual vitality and ‘shed his chains’ is a total misrepresentation of my beliefs, and the beliefs of so many like me. I believe the Bible teaches total depravity, clearly. Irresistable grace – not so much.
Plus, I think this is a prideful, sarcastic description not worthy of serious theological discussion (would Packer write that way?) What does ‘shed his chains’ mean anyway, Scripturally speaking – give me a verse Sproul.
Ans maybe I hold a grudge on Sproul because of the video of his where he completely mistaught on a Greek word to an audience of non-Greek students who swallowed every word. Either he was deceptive or ignorant, neither quality too endearing in a Bible scholar.
As to the Romans passage – Michael, do you see Romans 9-11 as primarily soteriological?
I don’t. Eschatology and ecclesiology seem to be the emphasis once Romans 8 ends and what is clearly a new direction in Paul’s thought happens to begin at chapter 9.
Michael, I also think Sproul’s closing comment about grace versus reward is silly and shows an ignorance of Rom 4:4. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Grace is described in this verse as a reward, in contrast to the reward of debt owed one by works.
Grace is contrasted with works in Scripture, and that clear distinction should be maintained. My hunch is that Sproul knows how silly it is to accuse those like me of a salvation by works (simply beause I speak to a human responsibility to the message) – so he muddies the waters with this term reward.
I think we all believe that we have scriptural warrant for our views.
Obviously, I would agree with most (not all) of Sprouls soteriology…and Packer would as well.
We disagree, but Packer is able to do so more irenically than R.C…but be as dogmatic in his own way.
I’m a sort of hybrid – so I brustle at the either/or perspective in a lot of theology. For example, I’m charismatic but believe the baptism of the Spirirt happens at salvation. MacArthur, Unger, Walvoord and others teach as if guys like me don’t exist when they blast the charismatics.
I’m sorry to step into this conversation so tell me to butt out if you want.
“When messages become focused on our behavior instead of what God has done for us in Christ — self-help sermons sugarcoated with ‘Christianese — a judging mentality is often not far behind.
When Law and Gospel, aren’t distinguished, you often wind up with a muddled mess — self-satisfied pastors and believers happy when they think they’re obeying God’s law but miserable and judgmental when they’re ‘failing.’”
It is my opinion that while one should rest in his or her “grace,” as far as the work of salvation goes (He is our rest), I believe one should never rest in their pursuit to live a life designed by the Lord God creator. Catholics called these thing meritorious works while the evangelicals term them, “pleasing to God.”
Through out the OT and NT, especially Paul and James in their Epistles, the scriptures continually point out that faith and works are never separate. So the difficulty is not about teaching those things which God designed for His creation to live by, but is nature of humans to teach and use them in an evil and wicked manner.
Lutheran, please correct me if I am wrong, but a portion of the Catechism of the Lutheran (MS) Church is teaching the error of Evangelical in two areas: teaching lifestyle over grace and the failure to recognize original sin and therefore baptism of the innocent.
“Luther said that repentance in the Christian life is a daily thing. The Gospel of God’s grace and mercy in Christ needs to be front and center throughout all the Christian’s life. ”
So do Jewish rabbis. When asked when a man should repent? The rabbi responded, “The day before you die.”
The listener asked, “how will one know what day that will be?”
You get the idea. The point is Jews, even today, believe in God’s grace and daily repentance and they, according to many Christians, are legalistic. What they don’t have is the Jesus who died and resurrected in their day.
I guess I get tired of all this doctrinal finger pointing, of which I am equally guilty. I want to get the Log out of my eye and see Jesus.
Really? Jews believe in God’s grace in the same way Christians do? Are you serious? They believe that we are saved by grace alone, by the shed blood of Jesus Christ?
No. I don’t get your point at all. You’re making a superficial comparison that has no basis in content.
Also, when it comes to repentance, it’s in the context of God’s one-way love.
Take a look at this article about sanctification. It might be of benefit.
Lutheran, please correct me if I am wrong, but a portion of the Catechism of the Lutheran (MS) Church is teaching the error of Evangelical in two areas: teaching lifestyle over grace and the failure to recognize original sin and therefore baptism of the innocent.
Bob,
Well, the only ‘evangelicals’ that were around when Luther’s Small Catechism was written was….Lutherans (well, not the only ones, but almost). But if you’re talking about correcting modern ‘evangelical’ errors, this era is no different from any other. Once the focus of the Christian life turns from the Christ to the Christian, then justification is no longer central, and you’re heading down the slope toward the Christian’s experience — it’s called pietism.
Baptism in the Lutheran view is God’s one-way love to the sinner — a gift — salvation — not something we can earn in the least. And not something we do — God does it.
Now go back and read your scriptures again, especially Hebrews 11 1; 12:3. Spells it out clearly.
Remember while Jews who rejected Jesus have not received God’s grace that is shown through Him, it did not changed the fact they believed and still believe in God’s grace. They just missed Him.
The term “Torah” may mean Law to you, but to the Jews of the Second Temple, Paul and the Jews today it means “instruction.” Sound familiar in your liturgy?
Oh and I can site rabbis directly if you need it. But you miss my point entirely, so I will just let it go.
Also cute article but I think it is more than demeaning in its tone.
Just so you understand where I am coming from, my experience with the local catechism classes of the MS is they spend a lot of time on the errors of evangelicalism, probably disproportionally so. Their targets, lifestyle preaching and baptism.
Have you ever actually been catechized by a Lutheran pastor?
I was an ‘evangelical’ for over 25 years. Then when my family and I were catechized into the Lutheran church, our pastor spent a year with us (off and on). He never said a word about modern evangelicalism. Lutheranism is a very big world.
Evangelicals need to get over themselves. Many are like adolescents — they think the whole Christian world revolves around them.
Bob, ‘It is my opinion that while one should rest in his or her “grace,” as far as the work of salvation goes (He is our rest), I believe one should never rest in their pursuit to live a life designed by the Lord God creator. Catholics called these thing meritorious works while the evangelicals term them, “pleasing to God”
i like that 🙂 Evangelicalism has produced some of the most beautiful souls that have walked the earth and will inherit the Kingdom IMNSHO
What personal slams? I don’t know you from Adam. If asking questions in a straightforward manner is a personal slam, then I guess I’m guilty. Might want to thicken your skin a bit.
You might notice you name called evangelical people in general. While I disagree with doctrinal positions I have not called one Lutheran or Catholic “get over themselves.” So easy does it please.
Please go back and read your writings I think you only asked one “straight forward ” question and that was have I been catechized? Direct answer no because I could not be confirmed into the Lutheran church because I cannot agree with the doctrine, specifically two things baptism and the Lord’s supper.
There is a specific answer.
I will he beating my horse next in this discussion.
Re. Jesus wealth, I read something a while back that suggested he came from a well-to-do family. The author said that the Greek word for “carpenter” was used elsewhere to refer to architects. He suggested that Joseph may have been employed in nearby Tiberias, designing the amphitheater and other large buildings, since Herod Antipas was trying to turn it into a capital city.
There was more circumstantial evidence presented, but it didn’t seem convincing to me.
It’s all yours today…
Looking forward to creating something beautiful in the studio tonight.
Bring some beauty to the world, just as you are, without making a “purpose statement”. Just create and be. It follows that since you and I are created in God’s image, we will, therefore, create beauty where there was none, order from chaos, form where void dominates, light and colour where emptiness have been.
Make music, sing and let your voice be heard.
Be free to be yourself, not requiring a religious sentiment or tagline “in the name of the Lord”, because everything you do reflects your Creator.
“Wow!” should suffice 😉
Music is up for the week. http://morethancoping.wordpress.com/2010/05/28/praise-worship-may-29th/
I’m heading for the hospital as I’m gonna be a Grandfather again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🙂
http://www.adamwhitley.com/ – Check out my back and forth with Ken Silva (Apprising.org). Search for “Apprising” and you’ll find all three posts neatly laid out for you.
Hey Michael…I drew this little cartoon a while back, concerning the “discernment ministry” types. It occurred to me you might get a kick out of it. http://soulsurfer.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/anticult.jpg
Bob,
That is a GREAT cartoon!!!
Ok, Michael, we gotta see you lead with that one this week!
Erunner – YAY!
Erunner, adding my congratulations and thanks for the music link as i listen to one of my favorite hymns of wonder sung by a pure beautiful voice as i type here
Question:
How wealthy was Jesus? And please do not give me the analysis of his deity and owning everything…. asked another way. How wealthy was the Jesus of history?
This is a great illustrated video about personal time perception and how it shapes personal behaviour and the behaviours of entire cultures…
BD, define “wealthy” ? the man didn’t depend on a stash of Roman coins, that’s for sure… but now you’ve got me thinking about hoarding vs prudence vs … dunno … think i’ll go make a pot of coffee…………
How wealthy was Jesus in history?
He was a normal man from Galilee, therefore He had his needs met through the work of His hands and the provision of God. Additionally as a traveling Rabbi people gave Him and His Talmidim (disciples) food and funds to live on. Rabbinical tradition says He would never have excepted funds for the teaching of the Torah.
Now do you want the allegorical super spiritual response?
I want to know about coin…. human physical resources for daily life, was he poor? was he wealthy? don’t want to hear about cattle on a thousand hills …
before i go make coffee and lose the thot
for some reason the prayer/supplication “give us this day our daily bread” always makes me think of John the Baptist …
Rob – Great Cartoon!!!
Erunner – Congratulations!!!!!!
Congratulations “E”!
Rob W…love the cartoon. Nice work.
E…you’re on a roll!
Erunner, Congratulations.
BD…He was a carpenter…then a “pastor/evangelist” if you will…provided for by the giving of others…He appeared to be lower-middle class from a worldly perspective…had his needs met…but not in excess…not poor, not rich.
Am I wrong?
AW…looking forward to reading your dialogue or back-and-forth with Ken.
So how bad is it TO YOU to “unfriend” someone from Facebook?
Do YOU do that?
Has it been DONE to you?
I’ve done it a few times lately with BIG, NEGATIVE reactions….
On Jesus’ earthly walk and wealth:
The home where the roof was removed for the paralytic was HIS home….look at the text.
Ever met a homeless carpenter?
The Bible said He did “all things well”….ever met a poor carpenter that was EXCELLENT in his craft?
How many wise men brought gold and myrrh and frankincense? And how much was THAT worth? And do you know anyone raised by godly parents who doesn’t GROW in wealth, especially once they are given tremendous wealth for their firstborn child?
Ever met a guy WITHOUT a TREASURE who had a TREASURER? ‘Cause Jesus had one! And Judas took A LOT of money and it wasn’t obvious to all he was taking anything….
There’s a start, Dreadly…
BD,
without going back and looking at everything again, my initial take is that he was self-sufficient until entering his ‘public ministry’ and during that time he relied on the provision of both patrons and God. There is no evidence that he turned rocks into bread when he was hungry, but he multiplied loaves and fish to feed the multitude. He did warn a potential disciple that foxes have holes, but the son of man has no place to lay his head. His divine power was used to summon (?) a fish with a coin in its mouth to pay taxes, but there is no evidence he did so with other needs. My take is He was completely poor in terms of human measures of wealth–down to the fact that his only possession was his garment–but He epitomizes the measure of being ‘rich toward God.’
BD,
Foxes have holes, birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no where to lay His head.
He told Peter to go fishing and the fish he caught would be enough for the Temple Tax.
He always had what He needed when He needed it, so why would He need a lot of coin.
Judas held the bag.
He told folks to seek God and His righteousness and all things would be added (speaking of material needs)
He warned about the deceitfulness of riches.
What are you really pondering?
fil,
You type faster than me. (probably think faster also) 🙂
“Ever met a homeless carpenter?”
yes.
AEA,
it’s just that we’re both right. 😉
as usual. 🙂
A homeless carpenter that WAS EXCELLENT at what he did?
The biggest supplier of construction jobs was likely Rome at the time as well, and they didn’t skimp….
It’s a FASCINATING thing to ponder…
Now BD is also asking what kind of “coin” Jesus might have had.
The problem is there were three kinds of “coin” in His day, the Roman, The Temple tax and the official Herod mint. Of course there was silver and gold, but the common man had very little of it.
Also Jesus was a, “Tekton” and He lived in a area not known for its wood work but their skill with stone. Also if you look at any pictures of Galilee wood is not a prominent source of building materials. So a man who was skilled in working with stone is also called a “stumbling stone,” “rejected stone,” and “corner stone.” Also don’t forget His saying, “upon this rock I will build…”
As far as how much “coin” He had, check out the feeding of the 5000, they didn’t have much.
Of course BD is not trying to actually talk about how much money Jesus had, rather he is baiting everyone for some other point.
Lest anyone quickly label me a fat-cat prosperity dude (who obviously doesn’t know me too well),
Jesus did NOT spend His money (of which I say He had quite a bit) on fancy chariots and clothes like many rich ministers do today, or extravagent meals….
He did have a ministry staff of 12 people, much less the 70…
Hi PP Folks,
Years ago I thought Michael had a gmail address listed on the blog. I can’t find it here, though I see where to click for facebook and twitter. Is there still a way to contact him by old-fashioned email?
Thanks.
“A homeless carpenter that WAS EXCELLENT at what he did?”
yes.
JTK,
I would qualify his “ministry staff of twelve” as a motley crew of interns.
Jesus had a heart of gold. 😉
a motley crew that was, by the power of the Spirit, on occasion, able to do some significant ministry.
duster is rightest.
Me thinks BD accomplished his goal of getting a dialog started.
But I dare not get too involved in this today. Too much to do.
Memorial service at 3:00.
Blessings
All I know is Dread handed me a sharp stick and told me to run into here….
I don’t know if Jesus was rich but I know the Lord met His needs. (Phil. 4:19)
Die to live:
You don’t have to have a facebook acct. to be able to reach him on facebook and send him a message.
Just search his name on FB and send a message. He can then reply to you via your email.
JTK:
I “un-friended” someone because she was blaspheming and mocking the Lord. Although I tried to have a dialogue with her, it just got worse and I had enough. I never heard from her again.
I have “hidden” others as I am just not interested in the junk they post and don’t want to see it or it to be shown on my wall.
Where does the Bible show us that Jesus was a carpenter… we know Joseph was Matt 13:55 and Mark 6:3… is there more than that inference?
Dixie dread, “Where does the Bible show us that Jesus was a carpenter”
He has nail scarred hands. 😉
Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.
I suppose the bumper sticker companies should recall the one that says, “My boss is a Jewish carpenter.”
never liked that one anyway. 😉
hi filbertz. How are you? still praying for Drew and Amber.
I have to agree with Dusty
Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.”
Am I missing something???
Nonnie, I think some commentaries say that , “Is not this the carpenter,” Really means “is this not the carpenter’s son”
Either way, isn’t it true back then that most of the time the son took on the same job/trade as the father….
Nonnie said, “I have to agree with Dusty”
now if everyone would just follow your lead. hehehe 😉
Nonnie…how is your mom’s recovery? It sounded like you had a good trip stateside!
Carpenter – strong’s # 5045
Tekton – used twice in the N.T.
Mark 6:3. Where Jesus is the carpenter
“Is not this the carpenter…”
And Matthew 13:55
“Is not this the carpenter’s son?”
I done learnt something today on the PP!
Email…phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
No I do not think him rich… but many attempt to make a case for it from inference…
Truthfully what we know is that money was not a scandal in his hands… some infer from his seamless Robe, his birth gifts, and his large entourage that perhaps he was of some means. I am unconvinced.
And I wanted to see what others thought… I actually raised an issue to learn the ideas of others. As for his being a carpenter … probably he was..but it was worth seeing if anyone else thought perhaps not… it is not of much significance.
His teachings on money are plain enough to understand his attitudes about money.
The two parallel passages produce something of a conundrum … as they seem to be one and the same event… per my 12:40 post
gold, frankincense and myrrh – for some reason i thot that those gifts financed their trip to Egypt? does anyone know the cash 🙂 value?
i mentioned John the Baptist this AM as he seemed like the perfect example of a man with a mission (sold out to God) – Paul next in line – but they are not to be our role models, i don’t think… except to humble us greatly in our self centeredness – speaking for myself there
and can’t one say that Judas was left holding the bag (of money)?
MB, you gave your little Barney the thing that is most important and satisfying to a doggie – she was accepted in the pack … at least that’s how i think a dog thinks … and it is interesting to see their personality traits blossom when they’re relaxed and accepted in their very own pack …
kind of like us, eh? i suspect that our Creator expected the animal kingdom to teach us a lot about raw emotion – the good and the bad – just what i suspect, dunno…
Dread,
Here is one for you, Jesus was average or below in looks:
Isaiah 53:2 says, “He has no stately form or majesty, That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.” He must not have had Benny Hinn’s hair either.
In fact, Jesus was so ordinary in appearance that the Pharisees had to pay someone (Judas) to point Him out in a crowd. He must not have had a glow about Him like He is shown in the movies either, otherwise the Pharisees would have just told the guards to go and get the one who glows…
Thanks Nonnie and Michael.
Dixie Dread said, “…some infer from his seamless Robe…”
He knew a very talented seamstress.
Dread,
In Matt. 14:13-21, when Jesus miraculously fed the 5,000, all Jesus and the disciples had between them was five loaves and the two fish.
Riptide the movie (gee, i hate that name) … did i understand him to say ‘go with the flow?’
i thot the object was to stay out of the rip? and going with the flow wasn’t a good idea, either – guess i’m not an original thinker 😕
Holly, there was a fair bit of discussion about that movie on a thread the other day:
http://phoenixpreacher.net/?p=1597
Adam Whitley,
KEN SILVA IS EMERGENT, it is obvious. He refuses to love the brethren as we are commanded to do and thus he is still walking in the darkness (1 John 2:9).
Holly….when we put our dog down last month my pastor emailed me and said that because Revelation refers to Jesus returning on a white horse that there will be animals in heaven 😉 (he wasn’t making a firm argument theologically, but gave it as a word of encouragement.)
MB 🙂 …spelled it that way on purpose…because I feel like I’ve been…well you know…on.
MB asked,
“#1– Was Riptide and the Calvary Celebration one and the same event?
Heitzig threw a bash to celebrate Chuck in conjunction with launching his new movie…great promotional strategy.
#2: Who produced Riptide/Calvary Celebration?
Heitzig.
#3: Michael: “Heitzigs actions do not reflect any sort of integrity or godliness, but are the cowardly reactions of what he is, a pure opportunist.”
What is an “opportunist”? I’ve never heard that term before.
See #1.
An “opportunist” in the context Michael used…is one who looks for opportunities for self-promotion…like dove-tailing a “celebration and tribute to Chuck Smith”…as a draw and as publicity (and to lend credibility) to launching his new movie endeavor. Great Self-Promoters are often “opportunists”…Think Don King or Donald Trump…or even Richard Branson.
#4: Why is Bob Grenier pictured? Is he still a CC pastor??”
Good question…and why right next to Chuck Smith…either Chuck isn’t aware of what’s going on or is gracing over another very bad situation. If he is aware and is purposefully choosing to endorse Bob…which it appears he is…as he’ll be rededicating Calvary Visalia on July 8th…then I am severely stumbled and disappointed.
In Economics you learn the basic concept of “Opportunity Cost”. By choosing Opportunity 1 you gain whatever benefit comes with that choice but you forgo the benefits that come with Opportunities 2 and 3. What you loose by forgoing your other options is your Opportunity Cost.
The concept is supposed to teach how to evaluate and assess the various options and choices one has.
In order to appear “gracious” and “affirming” of your affiliated pastors you incur the cost of evil remaining unopposed in the lives of your pastors and you incur the cost of the ruin of God’s people under your watch which the Lord will not ignore your share of that accountability of their ruin nor buy your rationalizations on the day of accounting before Him.
Holly,
Oregon is awesome… 🙂
First, I’ll address the pets in heaven query.
I have a theory…
Certain emotions and attachments are hardwired into us, just as the Law is written on our hearts.
My theory is that we wouldn’t have this near universal attachment to our pets if it wasn’t from God…and if all creation is to be redeemed…then the new heavens and the new earth will be a time when we enjoy the company of the pets God gave us once again.
I have absolutely no Scriptural basis for this…it’s an inference and a subjective opinion based on my understanding of the goodness of God and His joy in our joy.
As to Heitzig…his discontent with ABQ is well known, but at this point I’m sharing an informed opinion on the future, not a sourced story.
As long as he stays out of God’s country I don’t care a great deal…
Vic,
Well put…but those decisions have been made and there’s no going back at this point…
Michael, as long as Chuck is alive (which imo is the reason he is alive from a ministerial perspective) he has opportunity to do good and face up to the wrong he has allowed to transpire. In His Moses model He has shunned the counsel of those who are peers and true elders of his generation and had the perspective of history and the maturity of character to work together with Him to deal with these issues starting with shame of face before the Lord rather than saving face before man.
He is free to make his choices, but he is not free to determine the outcomes.
just in response to CA is BANKRUPT by M*B… one of the many reasons why
FYI CA increases (or did 2 yrs ago) overall state income by approx 26% each year, however, it increases just it’s welfare/social service costs by 24% every year in the past 5 fiscal yrs.
did you know this small budget cost: Juvenile Dependency Courts (300) of CA (this is CPS branch, does not include costs of the Juvenile Criminal court (600)) in one southern CA city alone that runs 3 dependency courts (this is just the city, not total county and not the largest county in CA by the way) 30 cases each day in 3 courts, everyone, mother, father, children and social wkr has an appointed attorney in every case… plus a court approved translator in ANY language… now there will be 1 mother, perhaps 5 kids and say 4 different fathers… each father with a child in any one case has an attorney appointed to him… these are taxpayer paid attorneys… i was more than a bit taken aback at the costs of just the court expenses… this does not include the housing, mental counseling costs for each child and parent, medical, dental, transportation and frequently the out of home care in group home or foster homes required for each case… add the courtroom costs of the judge, clerks, court reporter and adjunct court clerks…. this is only the court costs for one aspect of our welfare assistance… multiply these costs for 30 cases x’s 3 x 4 days a week for one city times all the cities in CA and number of 300 courts running, i don’t know what the resolution for this is, i do know that it is deemed against a woman’s civil rights to require fully reversable Norplant to prevent conception of another child to be legally removed from a woman… even after she has had 2 or more minor children removed from her care. Legal or illegal immigrant status was not a consideration for provided services… i am a total bleeding heart for victims and yet i also support the permanent removal of any child 3 yrs or younger after 6 mths from a parent that does nothing to rehabilitate in hopes of offering that child a chance…it is 12 mths if child is 3 yrs or older… the child has the same standing in Juvenile court as an adult, therefore an abused child is “asked” you want to live w your Mom/Dad or the foster family that has loved/supported/parented you the last 2 yrs of your life…what adult can navigate such a choice?! Then there are the ‘foster homes’ that are run by people who do NOT speak any english w english speaking children… average paymt for group home child is $550 a month plus medical/dental paid it goes higher. to $1500 if higher need level now being courted by SEIU for unionization LOTS of loving, caring social wkrs, attorneys, foster parents, group home FAA ‘s out there but are being overwhelmed by corruption and money in the system
okay…. sigh makes me crazy when good intentions and money gets warped by the system and why CA is going bankrupt and so many of us NATIVES and responsible citizens have fled the state yes Gov.’s proposed budget cuts will impact these children..but it is cutting things like 300 court cutting covering costs of band, choir, dance and sports participation deemed a requirement of the state to these children (the state is their legal parent as wards of the state) and minor mothers in system w child are now being provided visitation family maintance w father of their child(ren) do to unintended consequences of new legislation to help sustain contact between father and mother of said minor child, whether child is included in that ‘contact’ w the father of the child or not.
ok… off of my soapbox for awhile at least 🙂
Vic,
I understand…but there will be no changes until Chuck is not with us anymore…
Just a general question. What is your most troubling struggle concerning the Christian faith?
I will go first and say Origins is what I struggle with the most, next to that is the historic accuracy of some parts of the Bible.
Michael, that is sad. I need to learn to weep in my disgust. However if those in so called power will not see to it that wrong is addressed today, what makes them think they will be capable of doing right in a way that truly validates and addresses wrong tomorrow.
Do they not realize that the enemy has been given ground and allowed to establish strongholds that can only be brought into subjection and unto the obedience of Christ with the weapons provided to us in Christ.
If they will not use those weapons today, what makes them presume that God will count them faithful and therefore capable of being entrusted to use those weapons in their hands on the day “They” choose to address wrong.
But then again, maybe “they” view the solution as just another marketing and public relations campaign. ( I use “they” because these men have never been identified nor stepped forth amongst the other pastors and elders much less the people of God to be so identified)
Vic,
All good questions…all important questions.
The answers will be from God in the form of individual actions, not a unified movement.
“The answers will be from God in the form of individual actions”, Amen. I view that statement as prophetic.
I remain in the center of the Kingdom but on the sidelines in terms of Calvary but willing to take action when the opportunity presents itself.
Perhaps a disunified Calvary will bring the Kingdom unity of action in righteousness but diversity of belief and expression.
JTK: Seriously. Jesus had lots of money? He relied on the donations of women. He told the seventy to be content with the provisions of the household that welcomed Him. He borrowed [not repossessed a donkey (that incidentally He created).
In regards to whatever gold may have been passed to Him in his infancy from the men of the East; that would have been used for the family exile in Egypt. They would have required lodging and provision while Joseph had to forgo the exercise of his trade in Nazareth and the accompanying income.
#89 M*B and that’s only the child protective services (CPS) aspect of the CA budget, does not address the educational, criminal, juvenile and adult, medical expenses costs…and the underfunded pensions, CA is so BANKRUPT
#85 Brian asks “what is your most troubling struggle concerning the Christian faith?”
in what other relationship are we asked, at times for years, to continue in loyalty and consistency, w experiences of denigration, loss of position in family, community, socially, professionally, w/out any acknowledgement that we can perceived within our physical human form of senses, that we proceed with His awareness, let alone a sense of approval, acknowledgement and affection/love, except reading in His Word (which brings up the issues of the viability of man’s self serving translations of Scriptures) even within the very “fellowship” of said believers, I am a very independent and strong individual, blessed by our Heavenly Father with such an attribute… i continue to function on my knowledge, previous human sense connection to Christ decade past or more, and i cannot deny my faith, hope and a core sense that i ‘know’ HIM (even raised as a Buddhist as a child i knew there was something else)
this is my greatest struggle :that is between me, God and now you at PP 🙂 guess you can understand why finding you all is definitely important My even breathing, demonstrating such ‘thoughts’ would have a destructive impact on my significant others ministries around me… i know there are many, many more of “me” but it is NOT safe in the church i function in…especially w a very active ODM presence in positions of power
It seems to me that the ODMs today have become much like the Judaisers in the early church. They come in and cause division saying that there is another standard for salvation or orthodoxy, that it is not enough to just have faith in Christ to be saved. The Judaisers came to Antioch and declared that it was not enough to have faith in Christ to be saved that there were other things that one must do, one must keep some of the tenets of Judaism including circumcision. Many followed them because they seemed to be more strict than the church leaders in following the word to the letter.
Len Sweet’s situation is a case in point. Len clearly addressed the accusations that the ODMs had made about him declaring the simplicity of his faith in Christ, and even he stated that he had been misunderstood because he was trying to reach pomos with his books, not be a pomo. But, that wasn’t good enough for the ODMs. Evidently, the case against Len is that he uses words they don’t understand and have to look up in a dictionary (what else could it be?).
Just like the Judaisers of the early church, the ODMs do not have love for the brethren. Their decrees of condemnation are more important to keep than for them to stand for the truth and exonerate a brother wrongly accused. Truly it is they who have departed from the faith by setting up their own standards (saying these are clear yet they can’t even produce an accusation of Len for which they have condemned him). It is they who have no life in themselves because they refuse to practice love for the brethren. I’m not saying that there are not those who truly are emergent in the church (Brian MacLaren, etc.), but the ODMs are every bit as emergent themselves.
The ODMs condemnation statements being based upon disagreeing with their judgments (such as happened recently with Newnham who was called emergent for his threads), guilt by association (such as happened earlier this year when Greg Laurie and Chuck Smith were called emergent for doing evangelism with Rick Warren–a man they had already condemned as emergent, or pastor Heitzig for allowing a worship conference at his church in which Len Sweet would speak, all of their decrees remind me of the judgments decreed by the Judaisers that Paul wrote about, such as this one to the Colossians:
Colossians 2:20-23, “If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.”
The ODMs are adding to the scriptures their own standards for accepting one’s salvation or orthodoxy. They fit right alongside MacLaren as emergent.
Oh, and forgot to include another of the standards for orthodoxy: what book(s) you might read. “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” The Judaisers also wanted to think for the church just like the ODMs today.
🙂 boy ShowMeWhere,, you’re gonna get labled/compartmentalized now lol (:
i know they believe/think they are serving a purpose, i can only gentally and consistently keep reminding that we are accountable to God independently… i just hope the balance doesn’t completely tip in my church it will put me in a very strange position in opposition w some i cannot be so publically
ShowMeWhere… i question if a few of them even own or have access to dictionaries let alone use them i think they stop reading when thoughts and words transcend their comprehension one still had that old bumpersticker about KJV being good enough for Paul and Silus (insert rolling eyes here) until he overheard a few of our youth discussing how funny they thought it was
SMW thank you for book reference
MB asked, “OK, not to beat a dead horse, but….if SH doesn’t like ABQ and his “discontent is well known” — why did he come *back* to ABQ, then? Seems like a really hard thing to put all these people through at ABQ — for him to come back, and then leave *again.* ”
Because in order for the Skipper to be “relevant” and to be a “Big Guy” in CC…he requires lots of butts in seats…and lots of money…and lots of popularity.
When he went to SoCal…he entered into a situation where he was not received as a “Super Star”…the situation was not a good “fit”…and being an “opportunist”…as IMO Michael astutely observes about him…and I believe he is also a bit of a realist and a shrewd businessman…he quickly realized he was in trouble.
So…back to ABQ where he is a “star”…and where his “formula” works.
Pay no mind that his lack of Character deeply hurt many people…including a really good guy like Pete…but, they don’t matter…”God is at work…and Skip is ‘anointed’…”…but, I guess the other people aren’t? I guess when Pete got “touched” he was not “God’s anointed”…???
Interesting…I’d really like to meet the person within CC who makes the “anointed” determination. That is a pretty powerful person. Kind of like an OT King…or like Moses?
Back to the Skipper story…he goes back to ABQ….with butts back in seats…money coming in…to fund things like radio programs and movies…etc. Bang, he’s a “star” again…and back on track.
But, make no mistake…he likes the scene in Cali very much…and can taste the day he will return and compete as one of the many who will seek to fill the void left by Chuck.
Somehow God uses some of these guys…but if people are really honest about the way things are under the veneer…it sure isn’t very Spiritual a lot of the time.
MB…another comment…
The big take-away for me is…the Ends don’t justify the Means.
God does lead people…and a guy like Skip is certainly not 100% evil…but he’s also not 100% good either…he’s attached to the flesh, just like the rest of us.
Just because Skip is perceived as “anointed”…does not excuse…nor should it EVER excuse…poor Character…lying, cheating financially, mistreating others, going back on your word…etc.
If the Skipper wants a new Revival…a Fresh Wave…all he has to do is look in the mirror and start with himself.
Then he needs to go to a few of his buddies and encourage them to repent as well.
One other point of clarification on another subject:
Roger Wing has “some” of the testimonies regarding Bob and Calvary Visalia…not all of them (though he has plenty). And, he does not have the long list of people who haven’t yet documented their testimonies…but will share if they feel it’s safe to do so.
There has been a little “chatter” that the group is only 15 to 20 families (including former staff members, family members and long-time non-member members) who are sharing testimony about Bob…the list is significantly longer…and more and more people are coming forward (privately). Many are afraid to document their testimony…but they have pledged their support and have shared that they are in much agreement about Bob and the CCV situation. New people continue to contact me.
There are many who were abused sexually and physically in their home within the Evangelical Community who are encouraged by the stand being taken regarding the Bob situation. They are happy to see the issue being discussed in the Church context…especially when it is a Calvary Chapel pastor.
Chuck is very much sending the wrong message if he is aware that Bob is an accused Child Abuser…with a Police Report on file from two of Bob’s sons at the Visalia Police Department…corroborated by a third brother…with Detective Bill Diltz of VPD having interviewed people besides the three brothers who corroborate Child Abuse…
Child Abuse in the Church is not OK. Endorsing an accused Calvary Chapel pastor who has committed felony Child Abuse…but the statute has simply run out…is NOT OK. It enables abuse and sends the wrong message.
Chuck Smith…do you really want this issue to be a part of your legacy? Calvary Chapel…do you really want this issue to be a part of your legacy?
Change course now.
Some one here said:
“It seems to me that the ODMs today have become much like the Judaisers in the early church. They come in and cause division saying that there is another standard for salvation or orthodoxy, that it is not enough to just have faith in Christ to be saved.”
Which reminded me of the old argument and question of how are we to live if Jesus is our Lord?
It can be compared to the man who didn’t know that the traffic laws in his recently adopted city stated you couldn’t make a right turn on a red. When he was pulled over by the police officer and was asked if he knew why he had been stopped? The man answered, “no I’m new to this city.” The officer let him go with a warning.
Now anther man who had grown up in the city did the same thing, a right turn on red, and was also pulled over by the Police. When he was asked about his knowledge of the traffic law this man responded, “yes I knew but people turn right at this intersection all the time.” The Officer gave this man a ticket and a fine.
Once one, who claims Jesus as Lord, learns that certain things are clearly wrong can he or she continue in them?
“Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.”
James 4:17
Amen Bob. That is one of the most profound posts I’ve ever read on here…
the saddest result of the ODM way of policing the Faith is that they’re sending the unintended message that the plan of God won’t hold up to honest dialog…
on the other extreme end…
right now i’m coming off of reading “The Christ of the Indian Road” with a concern that E Stanley Jones made a mistake – going overboard in his enthusiasm for what he thought he saw happening in India: the country wanted, was on the brink of embracing, our Christ, but not our institutional Christianity. That was a good thing, but in doing so they were slip-sliding around that offensive mysterious miracle of the cross: “…My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” “He who knew no sin, became sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” Christ did not overcome evil with passivity.
“the saddest result of the ODM way of policing the Faith is that they’re sending the unintended message that the plan of God won’t hold up to honest dialog…”
Yep…and they tacitly deny that God will keep His own safe…
Michael,”Yep…and they tacitly deny that God will keep His own safe” … amen!
perhaps they are not defending the Faith, but “The Movement” – Truth doesn’t change, but time and God move on…
You have to download Flip4Mac…it’s free.
Better hurry… 🙂
You either have the sound down or theres a problem with the feed.
MB … #116 P3 n 4 😆
since this is the tag end of open blogging, can anyone tell me….
heard on the radio regarding a leader in the Emergent Church this morning:
“he’s moving beyond heresy into apostasy…”
what exactly is that? what delineates heresy v apostasy?
if (conditional ‘if’) heretics are headed for hell, why worry about their apostasy? ??
Sarah, you asked about my mom. She is doing beautifully! She will not have to have chemo or radiation as the surgeon believes he got all the cancer. She just needs to heal up from the drastic surgery and a large scar. She and I had such a blessed time together. Devotions each morning and such sweet times together. That trip was a gift from the Lord to us both. Plus the bonus of getting to see my children and 6 grandchildren!!
Thanks to you all for praying.
Hi Nonnie!
I’m jumping threads as I saw your note to me! Hey, no worries at all, and hope to see you next time! How happy I am to hear about your mom doing so well. I can only imagine how happy your family was to see you! 🙂 You are one blessed Nonnie! (grandma) 🙂
“what exactly is that? what delineates heresy v apostasy?”
Heresy is teaching another Jesus.
Apostasy is leading people into another faith which basically has no Jesus.
Simple definitions, I’m sure others can do better.
“but because it lessens the backwash from the Communal Cup.”
I always choose the little plastic single gulps because of this.
MB,”Heretics are those who teach false doctrine but aren’t necessarily headed for hell.” then the ODMs are mistaken? that’s good news 😉
I’m going to throw out a thought that came to my mind today. Who knows, it’s just a thought?
How many times have we heard that “legalism” can kill a church? I can’t even count how many times. Maybe the reality is that many church, in fact, are alive because of legalism. It seems that people need rules to keep, or they just can’t function.
I am really troubled by the tenor of judgment that seems to be pervading American Christianity. Church people are so busy telling each other what they can and cannot do, that they are making a mockery of our faith.
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Do all things without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. Philippians 2;12-16 [ESV]
DavidH, interesting… a couple things to chew on – mebbe more, eh? rules for @ Believer’s conduct, rules of Doctrinal principles, rules of order of service and serving…
but i wonder -why it is so hard for the Church to concentrate on the Lord, Himself, the reality of the indwelling Christ, the work of the Holy Spirit?
pondering at the keys 😕
“I think he ought to follow his heart and go to where he is happiest. I think Skip ought to prove by practice the words of Christ and the Apostle Paul. “It is more blessed to give then to receive.”
MB…your 2:52pm…Amen times infinity.
Those are the nearly the same conclusions I’ve come to from all the wrestling…
God Is. Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Salvation is through Faith in Him.
After that…we see through a glass darkly.
…and Pastors…SHOW ME don’t just tell me. Certainly tell me…but sometimes the best sermon ever preached is the one that is lived out as an example.
Well….Skip may get the desires of his heart. Have absolutely no idea….but we talked this morning about Pharoah and his hardened heart. We talked about how half of the times his heart being hardened is mentioned, the causal agent is God. The other half refer to Pharoah as the agent. Our pastor said he believes basically God gave him what he wanted…to not have to worship God and to be his own god.
Sometimes, getting what we want is not the best idea.
Em,
I am really struggling with what you mentioned. So many churches claim to be “Bible believing,” etc. I have yet to find anywhere in the Bible, except the Old Testament, where we get “rules for order of service,” “rules of conduct,” and such. In a way Paul deals with rules of service in 1 and 2 Timothy, but those are rather straight forward.
I’m just throwing out these ideas.
I’m really starting to think that “fundamentalism” of the last century caused a lot of damage. As a friend of mine said “wooden fundamentalism” in any ideology poses a danger. Many Christians have become so reactionary that it scares me. We need to become proactive instead of reactionary. That’s what astounds me about the ODMs, is that they spend so much time reacting to others. They don’t, ultimately provide any real solutions.
Just the meandering mind on a Sunday.
….but we talked this morning about Pharoah and his hardened heart. We talked about how half of the times his heart being hardened is mentioned, the causal agent is God. The other half refer to Pharoah as the agent.
————————————————-
Just for my curiosity Sarah, did your pastor say which of the two ‘hardenings’ came first?
AV…he’s being fairly cautious in labeling this.
He has pointed out that God has hardened Pharoah’s heart…that God absolutely is the agent in some of the verses referring to hardening. I don’t remember him saying that God was the first, or Pharoah…..however he does point to the fact that Pharoah is known to have been fairly brutal, which would lend itself to believing he hardened his heart.
It’s a tough thing to think on, though.
It is tough..and so I am always curious how another teaches it. My Calvinist friends tend to run to this passage, or more specifically the Romans reference to this passage as if it was a loaded gun and I was an Al Qaeda member.
AV,
It is a deadly passage for synergysts… 🙂
Actually, it emphasizes both human responsibility and the sovereignty of God with God being the causal agent of all…but without taking away human responsibility.
If you’d like to listen to the sermons, AV, you can find them here:
http://www.thevillagechapel.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=72
‘I am really troubled by the tenor of judgment that seems to be pervading American Christianity. Church people are so busy telling each other what they can and cannot do, that they are making a mockery of our faith.
DavidH,
Here are a couple of my thoughts.
From a Lutheran point of view, the church focuses on ‘judgment’ when it fails to recognize the difference between Law and Gospel. When messages become focused on our behavior instead of what God has done for us in Christ — self-help sermons sugarcoated with ‘Christianese — a judging mentality is often not far behind.
When Law and Gospel, aren’t distinguished, you often wind up with a muddled mess — self-satisfied pastors and believers happy when they think they’re obeying God’s law but miserable and judgmental when they’re ‘failing.’
Christians forget that they need the Gospel daily, even after they’re in the Kingdom. Luther said that repentance in the Christian life is a daily thing. The Gospel of God’s grace and mercy in Christ needs to be front and center throughout all the Christian’s life.
We would also posit that everyone deep down, the Christian saint/sinner, too, ‘likes’ Law — following rules, etc. is a way we ‘justify’ ourselves and look good in our own eyes and in others’, instead of abandoning ourselves to the mercy of God. It always grieves me, but doesn’t surprise me, when Christian groups start meandering toward a law-based faith. Then watch the judgment of others accelerate!
These are just a few random thoughts. God bless you.
DavidH,
One other thought about the Phil. 2 passage you quoted, I believe the key is the phrase “God works in you…” This is a dynamic of the Reformation churches, Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Anglicanism — that God is the agent, He is the One who acts — his Word and his acts go together — He acts, we respond. That’s the very structure of a Lutheran worship service, and I assume of Anglican and Reformed, too. He is at the center, not us and our feeble, sinful actions.
When placing your bets, always place them on God and not on yourself!
MIchael as you no doubt know, I am not a synergist (as commonly defined).
And it is crap like this that makes me not like reading Sproul. Talk about your strawmen.
” It has faith preceding regeneration. The sinner, who is dead in sin and in bondage to sin, must somehow shed his chains, revive his spiritual vitality, and exercise faith so that he or she may be born again. In a very real sense regeneration is not so much a gift in this schema as it is a reward for responding to the offer of grace”
His sheep hear His voice and come at His call … (He said so) 🙂
God keep all close this night
AV,
What is offensive to you in that statement?
The idea that the sinner must revive his spiritual vitality and ‘shed his chains’ is a total misrepresentation of my beliefs, and the beliefs of so many like me. I believe the Bible teaches total depravity, clearly. Irresistable grace – not so much.
Plus, I think this is a prideful, sarcastic description not worthy of serious theological discussion (would Packer write that way?) What does ‘shed his chains’ mean anyway, Scripturally speaking – give me a verse Sproul.
Ans maybe I hold a grudge on Sproul because of the video of his where he completely mistaught on a Greek word to an audience of non-Greek students who swallowed every word. Either he was deceptive or ignorant, neither quality too endearing in a Bible scholar.
As to the Romans passage – Michael, do you see Romans 9-11 as primarily soteriological?
I don’t. Eschatology and ecclesiology seem to be the emphasis once Romans 8 ends and what is clearly a new direction in Paul’s thought happens to begin at chapter 9.
AV,
I think beginning in Romans 8 there is a clear soteriological aspect along with eschatological and ecclesiastical aspects.
Michael, I also think Sproul’s closing comment about grace versus reward is silly and shows an ignorance of Rom 4:4. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Grace is described in this verse as a reward, in contrast to the reward of debt owed one by works.
Grace is contrasted with works in Scripture, and that clear distinction should be maintained. My hunch is that Sproul knows how silly it is to accuse those like me of a salvation by works (simply beause I speak to a human responsibility to the message) – so he muddies the waters with this term reward.
AV,
I think we all believe that we have scriptural warrant for our views.
Obviously, I would agree with most (not all) of Sprouls soteriology…and Packer would as well.
We disagree, but Packer is able to do so more irenically than R.C…but be as dogmatic in his own way.
I’m a sort of hybrid – so I brustle at the either/or perspective in a lot of theology. For example, I’m charismatic but believe the baptism of the Spirirt happens at salvation. MacArthur, Unger, Walvoord and others teach as if guys like me don’t exist when they blast the charismatics.
Calling it a night….
I’m sorry to step into this conversation so tell me to butt out if you want.
“When messages become focused on our behavior instead of what God has done for us in Christ — self-help sermons sugarcoated with ‘Christianese — a judging mentality is often not far behind.
When Law and Gospel, aren’t distinguished, you often wind up with a muddled mess — self-satisfied pastors and believers happy when they think they’re obeying God’s law but miserable and judgmental when they’re ‘failing.’”
It is my opinion that while one should rest in his or her “grace,” as far as the work of salvation goes (He is our rest), I believe one should never rest in their pursuit to live a life designed by the Lord God creator. Catholics called these thing meritorious works while the evangelicals term them, “pleasing to God.”
Through out the OT and NT, especially Paul and James in their Epistles, the scriptures continually point out that faith and works are never separate. So the difficulty is not about teaching those things which God designed for His creation to live by, but is nature of humans to teach and use them in an evil and wicked manner.
Lutheran, please correct me if I am wrong, but a portion of the Catechism of the Lutheran (MS) Church is teaching the error of Evangelical in two areas: teaching lifestyle over grace and the failure to recognize original sin and therefore baptism of the innocent.
Luth said:
“Luther said that repentance in the Christian life is a daily thing. The Gospel of God’s grace and mercy in Christ needs to be front and center throughout all the Christian’s life. ”
So do Jewish rabbis. When asked when a man should repent? The rabbi responded, “The day before you die.”
The listener asked, “how will one know what day that will be?”
You get the idea. The point is Jews, even today, believe in God’s grace and daily repentance and they, according to many Christians, are legalistic. What they don’t have is the Jesus who died and resurrected in their day.
I guess I get tired of all this doctrinal finger pointing, of which I am equally guilty. I want to get the Log out of my eye and see Jesus.
Bob,
Really? Jews believe in God’s grace in the same way Christians do? Are you serious? They believe that we are saved by grace alone, by the shed blood of Jesus Christ?
No. I don’t get your point at all. You’re making a superficial comparison that has no basis in content.
Also, when it comes to repentance, it’s in the context of God’s one-way love.
Take a look at this article about sanctification. It might be of benefit.
http://www.issuesetcarchive.org/articles/nbiss17.htm
Lutheran, please correct me if I am wrong, but a portion of the Catechism of the Lutheran (MS) Church is teaching the error of Evangelical in two areas: teaching lifestyle over grace and the failure to recognize original sin and therefore baptism of the innocent.
Bob,
Well, the only ‘evangelicals’ that were around when Luther’s Small Catechism was written was….Lutherans (well, not the only ones, but almost). But if you’re talking about correcting modern ‘evangelical’ errors, this era is no different from any other. Once the focus of the Christian life turns from the Christ to the Christian, then justification is no longer central, and you’re heading down the slope toward the Christian’s experience — it’s called pietism.
Baptism in the Lutheran view is God’s one-way love to the sinner — a gift — salvation — not something we can earn in the least. And not something we do — God does it.
Luth:
Now go back and read your scriptures again, especially Hebrews 11 1; 12:3. Spells it out clearly.
Remember while Jews who rejected Jesus have not received God’s grace that is shown through Him, it did not changed the fact they believed and still believe in God’s grace. They just missed Him.
The term “Torah” may mean Law to you, but to the Jews of the Second Temple, Paul and the Jews today it means “instruction.” Sound familiar in your liturgy?
Oh and I can site rabbis directly if you need it. But you miss my point entirely, so I will just let it go.
Also cute article but I think it is more than demeaning in its tone.
Reads better:
… Hebrews 11:1-12:3…
Sorry.
Luth:
Just so you understand where I am coming from, my experience with the local catechism classes of the MS is they spend a lot of time on the errors of evangelicalism, probably disproportionally so. Their targets, lifestyle preaching and baptism.
I’ll leave the discussion to other now.
Bob,
Have you ever actually been catechized by a Lutheran pastor?
I was an ‘evangelical’ for over 25 years. Then when my family and I were catechized into the Lutheran church, our pastor spent a year with us (off and on). He never said a word about modern evangelicalism. Lutheranism is a very big world.
Evangelicals need to get over themselves. Many are like adolescents — they think the whole Christian world revolves around them.
Luth
Do you resort to personal slams when others disagree with you? I guess we’re done.
Oh I’m glad your pastor spent so much time with you too bad that is not the standard in any denomination.
Bob, ‘It is my opinion that while one should rest in his or her “grace,” as far as the work of salvation goes (He is our rest), I believe one should never rest in their pursuit to live a life designed by the Lord God creator. Catholics called these thing meritorious works while the evangelicals term them, “pleasing to God”
i like that 🙂 Evangelicalism has produced some of the most beautiful souls that have walked the earth and will inherit the Kingdom IMNSHO
Bob,
What personal slams? I don’t know you from Adam. If asking questions in a straightforward manner is a personal slam, then I guess I’m guilty. Might want to thicken your skin a bit.
P.S. to my #158:
FWIW the Lutherans have also 😉 … and the Roman Catholics and ….
Luther
You might notice you name called evangelical people in general. While I disagree with doctrinal positions I have not called one Lutheran or Catholic “get over themselves.” So easy does it please.
Luth
Please go back and read your writings I think you only asked one “straight forward ” question and that was have I been catechized? Direct answer no because I could not be confirmed into the Lutheran church because I cannot agree with the doctrine, specifically two things baptism and the Lord’s supper.
There is a specific answer.
I will he beating my horse next in this discussion.
Re. Jesus wealth, I read something a while back that suggested he came from a well-to-do family. The author said that the Greek word for “carpenter” was used elsewhere to refer to architects. He suggested that Joseph may have been employed in nearby Tiberias, designing the amphitheater and other large buildings, since Herod Antipas was trying to turn it into a capital city.
There was more circumstantial evidence presented, but it didn’t seem convincing to me.
An interesting thought, though…