So… Our president is doing this immigration thing.
The action is illegal, violating separation of powers, but my question to conservatives and progressives here is what is your take on amnesty? As a hold-your nose-and vote republican, I don’t buy the sky is falling narrative.
It makes sense that a welfare state can’t have open borders, but I reject the notion that 4 million people jumped the fence to collect free benefits. I also reject the idea that there is a finite number of jobs in the US. Innovation creates jobs, and immigrants are traditionally entrepreneurial.
Legality of executive action aside, what’s your take on amnesty?
First off, I don’t think the President did what was wise in this case.
This needed to be bill, but so much misinformation and downright dirty lies have been told about the border to make political hay that such is impossible at this point.
Border hysteria is one of the tools that the right hopes to use to claim the White House and it’s proven effective so far.
I’m not even sure that a reasoned discussion is possible…everyone is dealing with different sets of facts and numbers.
Because of our own governments actions in creating the situations people are fleeing from in Mexico and Central America I’m very much in favor of giving refugee status to those who need it and providing legal ways to achieve citizenship without waiting for decades and your own death to achieve it.
I was in a mass group yesterday applying for minimum wage seasonal jobs.
There were no Hispanics in the room…just middle aged white guys like me who never dreamed we’d be in that position.
Conflating immigration issues with our current employment crisis is simply inflammatory rhetoric to keep people angry.
Border hysteria is one of the tools that the right hopes to use to claim the White House and it’s proven effective so far.
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It has? I join Jim in fully expecting to see President Hillary sworn into office, unless the Democrats would rather nominate President Warren because Hillary is too conservative. Either one, don’t know how the electoral map changes any.
Let’s admit this latest move is 100% political from Obama and his supporters on the left as well, and if anyone in the Democrat party cared about the plight of immigrants more than their own political survival they had plenty of time for two years when they controlled the whole shooting match to pass anything they wanted. But it warms my heart to see now that Scripture is guiding President Obama, since I guess those verses were not in the Bible from 2009-2010.
Instead they used that power and time to take over the banks and the healthcare system…oh yeah, and spend a truckload of debt by paying off political cronies in the name of “stimulus”
First off, it was undoubtedly political, but too much is being made over what benefit may come from it.
There are many immigration activists who believe that Obama has been the most duplicitous and damaging President on these issues in the last generation.
We would gladly vote for Laura Bush who had a real understanding of these issues having grown up just a few miles from the border.
The President did himself little real good here…if someone on the right with the sensitivity and savvy of Mrs. Bush appeared the Democrats could kiss the Latino vote goodbye.
I agree with #5. I think the gop should own this issue. We’re the “opportunity” party, right?
I just found myself thinking “bs” when listening to the chicken little hysteria.
Politics and legality aside, is amnesty bad for the US? I’m starting to think that it’s a very good thing. We’ve created a criminal class, based on a line on a map. My Greek great-grandfather only had to make it here, and stay here for a couple of years to become a citizen, and he raised a generation of job creating millionaires.
I’m glad that no one knows how to get in touch with you to let you have it. 🙂
What you say makes sense…but at this point in our history the battle is over who will rule the oligarchy, not sense.
For a variety of unpleasant reasons, immigration and border issues are easy to make hay from and then capitalize on the anger produced.
In my opinion, by the time the oligarchy is finished, we will look a lot like Mexico….
So I wonder. An Airbus with 500 Norwegians lands at JFK. The Norwegians deplane, and just walk past customs and all other homeland security posts, while pointing out to any who will listen that they have no visa and that the US government has no authority to detain them.
They hop on a bus and go to the Waldorf Astoria. Do you send any agency after them? Are they to be detained and deported … or just told, keep your nose clean for 5 yrs and you are in????
Why have border controls? We could save many dollars by getting rid of border and customs personnel altogether.
Once again you appeal to the absurd.
I don’t know anyone on my side of the issue that doesn’t believe in border security and reasoned applications processes for achieving citizenship.
The Senate passed a bill last year supported by the President. The GOP controlled house didn’t even bring it up for a vote. I’m looking forward with amusement to the next 2 years to see what kinds of legislation the GOP controlled Senate and House send to the President. I want the voters in the next presidential election to actually see what the GOP stands “for” going into 2016. On immigration specifically, I look forward to see whether the GOP offers any solutions beyond self-deportation.
And all of these covered under the Obama plan have willfully and criminally circumvented ‘reasoned’ application process – so on the face of it, those you want to help are opposed to your stated position.
Is my Norwegian example ‘absurd because they are white? Is it absurd because they did it in the open during the middle of the day?
The backlog on refugee applications is as much as five years.
These are people who fled for their lives.
An immigration application from Mexico can take as long as twenty years to process.
I don’t believe that either process is reasonable.
Jean – we have good immigration laws in place that get no enforcement. Why do we need new legislation that will be just as easily ignored.
This is such a racist policy on the part of the left that it is ridiculous. Why don’t we see large protest marches by Asian groups waving Korean flags at their rallies? How is it that they seem to follow the system as it is set up without issues?
Koreans aren’t fleeing oppression from the country they live in or the one on their border.
Most Asian refugees who are fleeing persecution are headed toward European countries…who are having similar issues to our own.
The migration of poor and oppressed people all over the world is the biggest untold story of our age.
If memory serves me correctly, the Asians also have a more streamlined application process than Latinos.
The Senate Bill passed 68-32. It was solidly bipartisan. I don’t think people like Lindsey Graham, John McCain, Marco Rubio and Jeff Flake would take kindly to being referred to as “part of the left.”
So, if we streamline the process, and give more inviting benefits – then the number of immigrants will double or triple, once again straining the system and increase the wait times back to 20 yrs.
We need to be in control of our borders and the influx of immigrants – I am tired of all these illegal Canadians in by area.
You probably forgot that we did the amnesty thing back in 1986 with all kinds of promises that this would be the end of such give aways … well, they all lied, didn’t they?
I get my share of flack on gun forums, but I’m building a little constitutionalist posse that enjoys showing “conservatives” how statist their beliefs are.
I can’t argue with big govt progressives, because we’re from different planets, but I think I have a bunch of republicans rethinking positions. I’m obviously still rethinking mine.
BTW, I think you’re far too smart to be an employee. Think like an immigrant and build a business.
We did completely seal the border one day for a few hours after the murder of DEA agent Kiki Camerena.
We stopped every car and searched them looking for anything that would provide a clue to who his killers were.
It was an international incident.
Of course, we know now that we helped torture and kill him so the checkpoint needed to be in Washington D.C….
Thanks.
After hundreds and hundreds of applications over almost two years I am now employed for the season at 9.00 per hour, four hours a day.
I’m trying to be grateful…
I think you’re addressing my question. What “giveaway” is tied to amnesty? Do stats exist that show that illegals who become legal chose welfare over work?
Jim,
It’s a combination – because their wages are low they also apply for benefits. Look, probably like you, I have an Hispanic gardener – I have never once asked to see his papers – that would be rude as no one asks to see mine.
I am talking policy – we should not have policies that encourage them to come here so that I can make them work in my yard for slave wages — why do some Americans think this is a good thing?
MLD,
I can see you’ve got a full head of steam on the immigration topic. I’m going to bow out at this point. I’m working on a series of devotions related to the Incarnation for Advent, which will draw heavily on these two books: Creation and Fall: Bonhoeffer, A Theological Exposition of Genesis 1-3; and Athanasius, On the Incarnation. If I don’t buckle down, I’m not going to be ready for the first one next Week.
Therefore, I will leave you in the capable hands of others here who share your passion.
I’m so happy that Michael has a part time job, and for this season and what it represents for mankind. 🙂
Now I’m wondering, however, if Jim is from Earth, what planet am I from?
MLD – I found your Norwegian comparison absurd because those folks would not be trying to leave their country to seek refuge from untenable conditions that we had a large hand in creating. While at the same time we sustain a job market of work, (agriculture, landscaping, child care, elder care to name only a few) by folks like you content to have a “don’t ask, don’t tell” attitude.
My son in law owns three large businesses that employ skilled labor. His employees are well compensated, including benefits. He only hires Guatemalans, as lazy white boys almost ruined him.
I have no passion on this topic. I don’t want to send anyone home to Canada or even to cut off their benefits. I have an Hispanic gardener who I pay peanuts and I have Slovenian housekeepers that I even pay less. I am a happy American.
I rail only against those who think that new legislation is going to change anything. As I said earlier – we did the amnesty thing in the past with the promise of it being a one time only BECAUSE it was going to fix things. It didn’t and won’t again.
I’m going to opt out as well as this is not going to end well.
Immigration in the past has always been regulated by our need and in a world that is constantly changing economically, socially, and politically, there will never be a “one time for all time” law that will address the issues.
MLD – If your landscaper or housekeepers get injured on the job, will you pay their medical bills? I know of one OC man of means who made that and other acts of generosity his policy. What say you?
That is a matter of your conscience.
For most it’s better to make slave wages here in relative peace and safety then to make slave wages in American factories across the border…and live under the constant threat of violence and extortion.
Perhaps we may want to examine the issue holistically and come up with better choices…
I think we r missing the point of the issue around what the president did. He usurped the legal authority of his office to keep a promise to a demographic that will help his party win elections. Immigration was the issue this time. Racism could b the issue next time. Unions the next time. Gays the next time. When does it stop? This country is built on the rule of law. Without it we have anarchy or despotism. Regardless of whether it was right or wrong the President must follow the rules of law. Our political process is seriously broken and this administration from the AGs office to DHS to IRS to TSA is dysfunctional and out of control. I don’t know the solution but people need to recognize the problem.
This administration hasn’t done anything previous administrations haven’t done.
There are no good guys in this mess.
There haven’t been for a very long time…
I understand your point, and would disagree with Michael in that the current administration has overstepped farther than recent predecessors.
I was coming from the standpoint of, we of course know his actions are illegal, ans we also know that the gop won’t do squat about it (other than posture), but what if this were done legally? Is amnesty the big bad wolf it’s being portrayed as?
Nobody in Washington D C really gives a squat about the little guy who works for a living. Both parties have failed ….they talk a good game …..both parties have their pet agendas.
Regardless of the political and cultural morass we are in,our purpose as the Body of Christ remains the same. We are called light bearing witnesses to a fallen world. Let’s try to keep our focus. To many people have put their faith in Americas political system and not in the Risen Christ.
My rant for the day.
I’m with the Dude. I lost any “faith” I had in politics, when I read the transcripts of the Watergate tapes back in the early 70’s. I was dope smoking hippie with low morals, and even I knew those guys were slime. Politics has only sunk further into a game of filth. From sending kids into war for big money corporations, to killing our own DEA agents, to letting our ambassador and his aides be slaughtered. I have no hope in our government, be it Democrat or Republican. I seek a better kingdom, and all I can do is to live my life to be a part of bringing His will on earth as it is in heaven.
I’m with Nonnie … well, I wasn’t a dope smoking hippie with low morals – but I was a long haired radical protesters, very close to one of the founders of the Weathermen.
The government tactics have not changed a bit. The government is not run by elected officials. It is run by those who ‘really’ put people in office. (again, I will repeat that if voting made a difference they wouldn’t let us do it.)
This is why legislation does not work. If the ‘real US government’ thinks it best that we have illegal slave labor in our country – this we will have no matter what the legislation says.
I mostly agree with the sentiments above, although I think change is possible. I also think that it won’t happen without something catastrophic occurring. I have an interest because I have grandchildren, and have found that I can be very interested in a wide array of topics while still loving God more than anything else.
The faith in govt vs faith in God argument is silly. Our faith rests in God alone, but we all have varied interests.
Jim, there is nothing in your post I would disagree with, other than the system changing outside of a revolution….I guess that would be catostophic. I have grandchildren also and I can’t even imagine what life will be like in 30 years if the culture continues to devolve. God help us.
“I take the constitution very seriously. The biggest problems that we’re facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the Executive branch and not go through Congress at all – and that’s what I intend to reverse when I’m President of the United States of America.”
“There are enough laws on the books by Congress that are very clear in terms of how we have to enforce our immigration system.”
“If, in fact, I could solve all these problems without passing laws in Congress, I would do so.”
“For me to simply, through executive order, ignore those congressional mandates would not conform with my appropriate role as President.”
“I swore an oath to uphold the laws on the books.”
“That’s not how our system works. That’s not how our Constitution is written.”
I would argue that there are two serious challenges facing our country:
1) There is intense tribalism within and between Americans, which has poisoned the political process from functioning effectively. By not addressing serious internal and external challenges, America is atrophying from within in terms of health and influence.
2) Other countries are not sitting still while America muddles along and atrophies. Particularly among the emerging nations, such as China, people there are hungry for a better life and governments are hungry for influence.
Historically, since many great civilizations have risen and fallen, I don’t know if America’s trajectory is reversible or not, but if it is, then I believe it would probably take either (a) a catastrophic event (whether of foreign origin, act of nature, or internal upheaval) or (b) a massive work of God (such as a renewal) bring back a spirit of “one nation under God.” Only in that spirit, do we have any hope at all of recovering the promise of America the Beautiful.
All it takes is one charismatic leader who believes in America (remember Obama never believed in America). We had such a leader three short decades ago. Change is very possible
Mark, I don’t know who you’re talking about, but you may be confused. We don’t need a charismatic leader to believe in America, we need such a leader to bring people to repentance and faith in Christ. If that happens, America can recover its shared vision of being one nation under God.
I do not believe in theocracy. Faith is an independent transformation not a national one. Yes we need faith but nothing short of the greatest revival in history could change America thru Christ. I’m talking about the restoration of our status, our economy and our freedoms
Michael,
I’ve heard that the group behind the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero of El Salvador was a right wing group financed through those covert operations. Have you heard that?
Mark- documentation verifying what you call delusional from no longer classified docs is not too hard to find. Do yourself a favor and do some homework before you so hastily call a brother delusional or as the bible says it “raca”.
Consider this a public service announcement.
I’ve tried to tone it down over the years and I’ve tried to enable measured, Christ like dialog.
However…if you want to see the Michael of years gone by resurrected on fire, mess with the memory or work of Gary Webb.
It won’t end well.
Delusional…losing it.
Thank you for keeping me motivated to tell all the truth about this issue and CC…sometimes I wonder if it’s worth the grief.
It is.
I don’t know about the Michael of years gone by, but I like the one on Stitcher Radio. He’s a pretty cool dude. 🙂
When I was a teenager growing up in Marin County, CA, a lot of kids wanted a BMW 2002. Remember those? Anyway, I got a used one and used to get it served at a garage called Mellow Motors. I think “mellow” is a word we should recover for this decade.
I remember Mr. Webbs articles in the mercury news but they backed off and that was when they lost their soul as a true news paper. They are now a paper tiger good for lining the bird cage. He was an extremely brave man.
They destroyed Webb.
He finally ended it with two shots to his own head.
Documents since declassified have vindicated him…and Charles Bowden finished his story just a few days before his own death.
Give me great men like Webb and Bowden…you can keep the charismatic crack dealer.
Michael, you should probably save your energies and focus.
You’ve been articulating what those things are for months now, do you really think it’s worth going back and resurrecting so many of the battles that have nearly sent you to an early grave are really worth it?
These political battles are useless. I despise them all (politicians) too be honest. The whole system is corrupt and has been co-opted by forces so dark and nefarious, hoping for a political solution to what is coming our way, is foolish in my opinion.
If I drop dead shining a light in those dark and nefarious places, I will die in good company.
Ironically, I told my pastor the other day that since the publication of Bowdens last article that wraps up almost thirty years of loose ends that I have found some peace and come to terms with his death.
He finished the work he was created to do.
I want to do the same.
I do need to pick my shots though and probably need to back away tonight.
I only have read your post thus far; but I have a question for you.
What would you say about President Reagan’s ‘executive order 12324 interdiction of illegal aliens’ since he did the same thing essentially ? http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=44317
I can assume then that you feel Regan’s actions were also unlawful?
Reagan was an actor, and what Michael has referenced here tonight is true. I’m no fan.
I don’t know or care about his exec order and I’ve tried to avoid discussing Obama’s. My question is, is amnesty good or bad? I realized this week that my opposition was based on preconceived notions that are probably incorrect.
1. Will amnesty stress our already out of control welfare state, or will those who come out of the shadows become workers and producers.
2. Is there a finite number of jobs in the US.
I reject # 2, and strongly question # 1. I want data,, but my gut tells me that immigrants want to work.
Jim,
Here in Iowa we have a lot of meat processing plants. If you drive near one, the scent will turn your stomach. They tend to be staffed by Mexicans, Central Americans or Hmong. They don’t pay great and the work in manual and hard. I doubt confidently that the immigrants are taking any jobs away from Caucasian or black Americans. If their illegal, then they’re probably getting screwed and can’t do anything about it.
Michael there are no declassified documents that vindicated Webb. That is a mischaracterization. The declassified documents criticized the CIA for turning a blind eye to where the money came from but found no evidence of any CIA conspiracy to bring drugs into the US. You called President Reagan a crack dealer and basically hold him responsible for the plight of millions of Central Americans who have been victims of corrupt despots for 100 years. I call Ronald Reagan the greatest president of my lifetime who implemented the largest tax cut ever, ended the Cold War, restored American patriotism and presided over the least partisan congress in decades. Much smarter political historians than you I or Gary Webb would agree with my assessment. I offered up a president who implemented real positive change in this country and u responded with an hysterical hatchet job. It’s your blog so go ahead and “light me up” because it will only go to demonstrate the vindictiveness you too often wear like a badge of honor
Like Jim at 67, my question is: will this immigration action lock down congress and the presidency for many many years with a single party like some news channels are predicting.
I’m on a few outdoors sites as well and the left believes this will finally reign in gun rights and the 2A with the new immigrants voting for bills the dems support since the dems helped them get legal. The point of a participular article (pro 2A) was that Mexicans and those from Central America are used to civil wars, coups, need for protection from cartels and having no gun rights. These folks understand the necessity of gun rights WRT freedom. We may end up with many more pro 2A pro freedom voters in the future than people think.
None of us perceives reality objectively, because to a certain extent we are all captive to our economic, racial, cultural, upbringing, and social circumstances. This is natural. For those of us who are aware of our biases, at our best we attempt to overcome them through dialogue and “listening” to others. However, there are those among us who either don’t see their perceptual limitations or who just don’t care; who live in a thought ghetto; for whom there is black and white, good and evil; and for whom their ideology is “the” good.
I am not an enemy of the memory of Ronald Reagan. He was my Commander in Chief during my military service. However, I remember the Beirut Bombing and the Iran/Contra hearings. I remember his opponents accusing him and his Administration of flaunting the laws.
Some people on here accuse the current President of breaking the law, of not believing in America, as though he is a spy for a foreign country trying to destroy America. Shame on you. Who on here is qualified to analyze the legality of the President’s action this week on immigration and pass judgment on its legality? Do you really think he didn’t analyze its legality and come to a decision which in his and his legal advisor’s professional opinions complied with the Constitution?
Every year, in every administration, the U.S. Supreme Court hears numerous cases. It is the nature of our system that laws and actions of government are judicially reviewed. That’s the way our system works. It’s one of the strengths of our system. When a Republican is in office, the Democrats bemoan his actions; when a Democrat is in office, the Republicans bemoan his actions. Some times laws or actions are overturned; other times they’re not.
The President was elected twice. The people spoke twice regarding his policies. There will be another election in two years. If the President’s opponents think they have better solutions, they can start passing laws and campaigning on them, and the American people will decide whether they want them.
Jean,
I am sure the next guy or gal will be equally inept and before long in office become corrupt.
I blast them all – I blasted the previous amnesty giver – Ronald Wilson Reagan – who if I remember correctly was the anti christ as each of his names have 6 letter = 666
Believe me, the Russians do not give the credit to Reagan for ending the cold war. They have their own ideas about that. I myself have no idea who is correct.
Michael,
I have no horse in the Gary Webb thing, but since you challenged us to Google I found this opinion piece that is current (due to the release of the movie) and is by the guy who is the The Washington Post’s assistant managing editor for investigations – Jeff Leen
I know you will probably label him a hack – but The Post has a great reputation for investigative reporting … long after Watergate and Leen was working a similar story in Miami during Webb’s time frame.
My guess is that people will want to play dueling links…it might actually serve to read Webb’s book and the book that the movie was based on.
When you’re done with that then you can read “Legacy of Ashes” about the CIA and Bowdens last article…and maybe then we can have a real conversation.
I’m still trying to understand why the morality and ethics of football players and other athletes is an issue.
If they break the law prosecute them.
If we were to banish all jackasses from working for a living unemployment would be at about 70%…
One thing that really concerns me about the current conflict with ISIS is the analogy to the 80s. For the Christian, is the enemy of my enemy my friend? Do the ends justify the means?
This current conflict is complicated because the enemy we are fighting is also the enemy of our other enemies (i.e., Syria and Iran). Do we even understand what we’re doing. Will more lives be lost or saved by our actions? Who are we actually helping? Is anyone even asking the right questions?
MLD,
I hear you, but what I’m also hearing, and what I expect to hear more of during the next 2 years, is a contest among the next presidential candidates (Republican and Democrat) over who is the bigger bad a**. Rand Paul has been excoriated, so all that’s left to run on is bomb everything that moves.
I appreciate your honesty. Let me try to respond to your #93 briefly:
First, I’m not buying into the labels of progressive and conservative. The “progressive” label perpetuates a falsehood that mankind possesses the wherewithal to somehow progress towards some greater destiny. I think progressivism has proven false.
However, neither to I embrace the conservative label, because it begs the question: What do I want to conserve? It is usually, whatever I like about the past. Was it Jim Crow? Was it no regulations on coal fired power plants that rained down acid rain on the North East? Was it the time before Social Security and Medicare were enacted? Was it before women could vote?
Why would someone vote for Hillary over Rand?
The thing that influences me the most is God’s revelation in the Bible. I see two relevant themes in the Bible: (1) left to ourselves, man operates under the rule of “the strong eat the weak”; and (2) God intervenes to defend and protect the weak. So, my concern is for the weak and powerless in society. In our democracy, my concern is to provide people with an opportunity to move from poor to middle class and even to upper class. I think social movement potential is of paramount importance in our society. Historically, social movement potential and a strong middle class have been defining strengths of America.
The biggest weakness I see with the libertarian agenda is that it assumes that there is a free market for most everything. People should have the maximum freedom to do whatever they want, as long as they don’t impinge upon anyone else’s freedom.
The problem is that things like clean air, clean water, safe working conditions, access to high quality education and healthcare and political influence don’t work for the poor under a free market system. Free markets in these areas didn’t work for the poor during biblical times and they don’t work for Americans today. Therefore, I believe that government must play an appropriate role to ensure the protection of people who don’t have the power to protect themselves. I would trust Hillary Clinton to navigate that role better than Rand Paul.
Whether your pro amnesty or against it can be debated. But the data predicts that 98% of people from Mexico and the rest Latin America who crossed illegally will vote democrat once amnesty is passed. And that majority of that 98% will also go on welfare system as the model shows as seen with anchor babies. IMO this whole amnesty situation is really about about securing future votes for the democratic party.
Michael I did sort of follow the advice of MLD many years ago, I loath politics but on the local level I have found that a small group of dedicated people can have a dramatic effect on the local political situation. I chose affordable housing, senior housing, and programs for people with disabilities. A few rabbit trails include equitable pay, working conditions etc. On the local front we have had several very profound successes. It does encourage me when I am an extremely small part of such situations. The problem is that is so time consuming, it requires many many hours of going to meetings, writing letters, making phone calls, reading legislation, reading case law, walking neighborhoods etc.
It is good to have a victory once in a while. Just a thought. I will be honest the victories I have experienced have not really given me peace or given me joy. As a follower of Jesus I have always considered those unreasonable expectations, even a sin.
No serious issues but I am going dark on facebook and the few blogs I post until after thanksgiving. I may read from time to time but want to just go back to God. Thanks I wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving holiday.
I have an Hispanic gardener who I pay peanuts and I have Slovenian housekeepers that I even pay less. I am a happy American.
Martin Luther’s Disciple
November 22, 2014
So here is the question – am I a hero for hiring these folks or am I contemptible for paying them only what they asked for?
–‘Cursed is he who distorts the justice due an alien, orphan, and widow.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’ (Deuteronomy 27:19 NASB)
You wouldn’t pay an old widow Ina desperate situation from unexpected medical bills less for gardening, would you?
An orphan whose parents just died in a fire deserve less?
THAT is what you’re doing to those WOPs….”without papers.”
And voting rights aren’t even remotely on the table.
And we Americans are to blame for all immigration because
(1) of all the drugs we sniff up our nose and the like and
(2) of the 28 million working age (16-41 years of age) “missing workers” since Roe. Not arguing legality, discussing the reality…of demographics that our combined national sexuality produces.
JTK,
For all you know I pay them more than you earn … but you missed my questions.
1.) If these people came to my door asking for work and I hired them is that not good?
2.) If they said they wanted $100 per month (a figure I will use as an example and may or may not be real) to do the work and i give them what they ask for am I not 100% fair?
Now look at it from another angle. How many hear do NOT hire people to do work around the house saying “I’m not paying someone else to do what I can do myself.” Are they not the selfish ones who would rather keep all their money as their own without spreading it around?
I pay my people just fine … that’s why they have worked with me for the past 12 yrs.
btw – you said “THAT is what you’re doing to those WOPs….”without papers.” I never said my people were ‘without papers” – I said I never ask as it would be rude.
MLD said
Now look at it from another angle. How many hear do NOT hire people to do work around the house saying “I’m not paying someone else to do what I can do myself.” Are they not the selfish ones who would rather keep all their money as their own without spreading it around?
Surely you r being sarcastic right? U don’t believe people who do it yourself instead of paying others r being selfish?
Michael I know u champion guys like Webb and Bowden and aspire to be the same kind of muckraker on this blog. But to call President Reagan a crack dealer is not only ludicrous it makes u look like an idiot. There is not a single shred of evidence on the record that Reagan ever authorized the sale of crack to fund covert operations. I’ll leave it at that.
I have shared personal details of my history with you offline and to have u state publicly that I have a history of self deception is both hurtful and insensitive. I will no longer post on this blog. There r others posting here who have said much worse than me but u cut them slack. With all of the demons I’m battling in my life I don’t need the “Phoenix Preacher” as another one. God bless
God bless, Mark. I saw much merit in many of the things you posted and I appreciate your unswerving loyalty to those you admire and love. I will miss your presence here.
That assumes I do nothing here already.
I think people need to deal with reality and the reality is that there is a deep vein of corruption that runs throughout our government and has for a long time.
I made the mistake of reading Matt Walsh’s blog on this issue yesterday…and four people came right out and advocated the assassination of the President in the comments.
That kind of response is what misinformation and willful division is creating.
The issues of the drug war and immigration have consequences in my community and in my neighborhood.
They are “local” issues as much as the local library levy…except no one is dying if it doesn’t pass.
This is your third or fourth swan song and you’ll be back as soon as I publish something about CC…back to tell everyone how wrong I am and all is well in the world despite what I write.
When my book comes out you’ll lead the parade to shout that I’m going to split hell open sideways.
What you call muckraking I call truth telling…I can never be what Webb or Bowden were…I’m not that gifted or courageous.
The best I can do is try and I will keep doing so.
question – why were there immigration laws in the first place? shouldn’t America (north, south and central) just continue as one grand experiment of ‘survival of the fittest?’
why not allow as many in as want to come, no matter what the reason?
isn’t there always room at the dinner table for one more?
didn’t read the thread … history marches on and on and seldom has a good outcome and the sea of humanity ebbs and flows with the tides … but there was that one brief shining moment … how did that happen anyway?
Michael, the problem I see is that it appears you are “selective” in how you express and to what you direct your outrage to when it comes to corruption in our political arena. Which is your prerogative, it is your blog after all 😉
I try to stick to things I’ve actually taken the time to study.
Most of what I read on most topics is based on partisan politics…and frankly, it’s impossible of know where the truth lies in many cases.
This subject I’ve studied for years and have a measure of confidence in making an informed opinion.
this government of ours solves their debt problem by printing money, which results in diluting both the debt and the value of the money …
similarly IMV we import worker bees, which solves the employment problem all around for one generation, but worker bees want their children to have a better life, i.e., a higher standard of living as in better jobs and more money and their children’s children – the grandchildren? they weren’t raised to perform the low pay manual labor that their, now retired, grandparents did … and we’ll need more worker bees …
can these cycles go on forever?
just sitting here, pondering … again … no opinions … guess i’ll go watch the diluted Seahawks lose another game
Only 36% of the individuals in America who were eligible to vote actually voted this last election.
And yet something like 80% have strong opinions politically; and most of them will participate in the conversation if it drifts into the political arena.
We need to vote as a free people.
I was amazed at the amount of my own acquaintances that never even vote.
I would love to see my far left leaning friends vote and I would love to see my far right leaning friends vote.
Ever since civics was no longer required to be taught in the public school systems; voter turn out has dramatically fallen.
A free people need to vote and participate in their governance.
As Christians, we should be the first to seek to change any law that is unjust. At the same time, we are also to demonstrate our submission to God by obeying the government He has placed in authority over us.
“Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God” (1 Peter 2:13–16).
I don’t know what MLD pays those workers, but I would pretty much guarantee it is more than the legal minimum wage which is $9.00 an hour. And that is with the 15.30% self-employment tax which MLD’s workers may or may not be paying (as it is not his responsibility if they are independent contractors and I am guessing they are).
Out here in Southern California, you aren’t just going to find guys to hop in the back of your truck and then give them 2 bucks an hour at the end of the day of work. They’re almost always going to find out what you need done, and negotiate a price before they agree to work for you that day.
As far as steady businesses go, that choose to undermine their competition by breaking the employment laws, the government should throw the book at THEM – not the illegals they employ.
Anybody see the Beckham catch for NY? Oh my! Three finger catch, in the air and brings it in from over his shoulder as he hits the ground. Google it. Collinsworth said it was the best catch he’s seen in his life. I don’t know about that after watching Gronk for several years.
SJ, I would chime in and add that Beckham Jr and Gronk both made the best catches I have ever seen in one season. Stallworth’s catch was great but these two are better. Athletic, acrobatic and graceful.
Yah you are right, the Gronk catch, what like two weeks ago for a TD was pretty good. There are so many with Gronk. One handed over the shoulder somersaulting hitting the ground. You could not even tell where the ball went.
SJ, the cool thing about Gronk & Beckham is that there is still many more catches to come. I think that you are right the Gronk catch was two weeks ago. It’s been a fun year. Go 9ers!
Wow Michael, really classy posts by you in this thread. people like you crack me up. You hate on Reagan, but give Clinton and Obama complete free passes. You might wish to read up on all the people close to BC who suddenly and mysteriously met their demise. Lots of conincidences.
Michael, your comment #108, regarding the deep vein of corruption….you forgot to add….except for when Dems are in office. They’re there for love of country and to serve their fellow mankind.
What an absolute disgrace Michael.
At Jim (#93), in answer to your question, find an article from the Huff Post last week. I believe the title was something like…Why I’m a liberal Democrat and support Rand Paul for President.
No one asked about Clinton or Obama…
I already stated that Obama was not held in high regard among proponents of immigration reform.
I also stated that this corruption has gone on for a long time.
Mark wanted to make Reagan the poster boy for all that’s good and American and I answered him.
What’s disgraceful is that you are so blinded and enraged by ideology that you can’t bother to ask for an opinion before you blast me…
It’s pretty clear what your ideology is when you keep speaking of “liberals” and come unglued at any besmirching of Reagans name.
I personally do not think either party is anything but representative of the ruling oligarchy and I don’t believe any administration in recent memory has walked in anything resembling integrity.
I’m not a political wonk…my concern and study is on one issue that I speak to on the blog.
Thanks for the response. But once again, happy to say, you’re wrong and that you know zero about me. But, I will give you a clue. IMO, the two worst presidents of all time, in whatever order, are GWB and BO.
And…it’s not so much that I care about RR, it’s just a totally cowardly act on your part to complain that he was corrupt, but have no comment on any other administration. Your cry of “I haven’t studied those” is beyond weak. It’s completely obvious to any casual observer that all modern administrations are corrupt to the core.
The discussion was around drugs and immigration, not on corruption in general.
I posted an article earlier this week that was centered on the CIA’s activities in regard to drug trafficking during the Reagan administration.
These were comments centered around one subject.
Have a lovely day.
It’s all yours today…
So… Our president is doing this immigration thing.
The action is illegal, violating separation of powers, but my question to conservatives and progressives here is what is your take on amnesty? As a hold-your nose-and vote republican, I don’t buy the sky is falling narrative.
It makes sense that a welfare state can’t have open borders, but I reject the notion that 4 million people jumped the fence to collect free benefits. I also reject the idea that there is a finite number of jobs in the US. Innovation creates jobs, and immigrants are traditionally entrepreneurial.
Legality of executive action aside, what’s your take on amnesty?
Gee, Jim, you’ve only chosen to open with the single most controversial issue in the PhxP history. 🙂
I’ll address it shortly.
First off, I don’t think the President did what was wise in this case.
This needed to be bill, but so much misinformation and downright dirty lies have been told about the border to make political hay that such is impossible at this point.
Border hysteria is one of the tools that the right hopes to use to claim the White House and it’s proven effective so far.
I’m not even sure that a reasoned discussion is possible…everyone is dealing with different sets of facts and numbers.
Because of our own governments actions in creating the situations people are fleeing from in Mexico and Central America I’m very much in favor of giving refugee status to those who need it and providing legal ways to achieve citizenship without waiting for decades and your own death to achieve it.
I was in a mass group yesterday applying for minimum wage seasonal jobs.
There were no Hispanics in the room…just middle aged white guys like me who never dreamed we’d be in that position.
Conflating immigration issues with our current employment crisis is simply inflammatory rhetoric to keep people angry.
Border hysteria is one of the tools that the right hopes to use to claim the White House and it’s proven effective so far.
———————————————-
It has? I join Jim in fully expecting to see President Hillary sworn into office, unless the Democrats would rather nominate President Warren because Hillary is too conservative. Either one, don’t know how the electoral map changes any.
Let’s admit this latest move is 100% political from Obama and his supporters on the left as well, and if anyone in the Democrat party cared about the plight of immigrants more than their own political survival they had plenty of time for two years when they controlled the whole shooting match to pass anything they wanted. But it warms my heart to see now that Scripture is guiding President Obama, since I guess those verses were not in the Bible from 2009-2010.
Instead they used that power and time to take over the banks and the healthcare system…oh yeah, and spend a truckload of debt by paying off political cronies in the name of “stimulus”
First off, it was undoubtedly political, but too much is being made over what benefit may come from it.
There are many immigration activists who believe that Obama has been the most duplicitous and damaging President on these issues in the last generation.
We would gladly vote for Laura Bush who had a real understanding of these issues having grown up just a few miles from the border.
The President did himself little real good here…if someone on the right with the sensitivity and savvy of Mrs. Bush appeared the Democrats could kiss the Latino vote goodbye.
I agree with #5. I think the gop should own this issue. We’re the “opportunity” party, right?
I just found myself thinking “bs” when listening to the chicken little hysteria.
Politics and legality aside, is amnesty bad for the US? I’m starting to think that it’s a very good thing. We’ve created a criminal class, based on a line on a map. My Greek great-grandfather only had to make it here, and stay here for a couple of years to become a citizen, and he raised a generation of job creating millionaires.
Jim,
I’m glad that no one knows how to get in touch with you to let you have it. 🙂
What you say makes sense…but at this point in our history the battle is over who will rule the oligarchy, not sense.
For a variety of unpleasant reasons, immigration and border issues are easy to make hay from and then capitalize on the anger produced.
In my opinion, by the time the oligarchy is finished, we will look a lot like Mexico….
So I wonder. An Airbus with 500 Norwegians lands at JFK. The Norwegians deplane, and just walk past customs and all other homeland security posts, while pointing out to any who will listen that they have no visa and that the US government has no authority to detain them.
They hop on a bus and go to the Waldorf Astoria. Do you send any agency after them? Are they to be detained and deported … or just told, keep your nose clean for 5 yrs and you are in????
Why have border controls? We could save many dollars by getting rid of border and customs personnel altogether.
MLD,
Once again you appeal to the absurd.
I don’t know anyone on my side of the issue that doesn’t believe in border security and reasoned applications processes for achieving citizenship.
The Senate passed a bill last year supported by the President. The GOP controlled house didn’t even bring it up for a vote. I’m looking forward with amusement to the next 2 years to see what kinds of legislation the GOP controlled Senate and House send to the President. I want the voters in the next presidential election to actually see what the GOP stands “for” going into 2016. On immigration specifically, I look forward to see whether the GOP offers any solutions beyond self-deportation.
And all of these covered under the Obama plan have willfully and criminally circumvented ‘reasoned’ application process – so on the face of it, those you want to help are opposed to your stated position.
Is my Norwegian example ‘absurd because they are white? Is it absurd because they did it in the open during the middle of the day?
MLD,
The backlog on refugee applications is as much as five years.
These are people who fled for their lives.
An immigration application from Mexico can take as long as twenty years to process.
I don’t believe that either process is reasonable.
Jean – we have good immigration laws in place that get no enforcement. Why do we need new legislation that will be just as easily ignored.
This is such a racist policy on the part of the left that it is ridiculous. Why don’t we see large protest marches by Asian groups waving Korean flags at their rallies? How is it that they seem to follow the system as it is set up without issues?
MLD,
Koreans aren’t fleeing oppression from the country they live in or the one on their border.
Most Asian refugees who are fleeing persecution are headed toward European countries…who are having similar issues to our own.
The migration of poor and oppressed people all over the world is the biggest untold story of our age.
If memory serves me correctly, the Asians also have a more streamlined application process than Latinos.
MLD,
The Senate Bill passed 68-32. It was solidly bipartisan. I don’t think people like Lindsey Graham, John McCain, Marco Rubio and Jeff Flake would take kindly to being referred to as “part of the left.”
So, if we streamline the process, and give more inviting benefits – then the number of immigrants will double or triple, once again straining the system and increase the wait times back to 20 yrs.
We need to be in control of our borders and the influx of immigrants – I am tired of all these illegal Canadians in by area.
You probably forgot that we did the amnesty thing back in 1986 with all kinds of promises that this would be the end of such give aways … well, they all lied, didn’t they?
Michael,
I get my share of flack on gun forums, but I’m building a little constitutionalist posse that enjoys showing “conservatives” how statist their beliefs are.
I can’t argue with big govt progressives, because we’re from different planets, but I think I have a bunch of republicans rethinking positions. I’m obviously still rethinking mine.
BTW, I think you’re far too smart to be an employee. Think like an immigrant and build a business.
We did completely seal the border one day for a few hours after the murder of DEA agent Kiki Camerena.
We stopped every car and searched them looking for anything that would provide a clue to who his killers were.
It was an international incident.
Of course, we know now that we helped torture and kill him so the checkpoint needed to be in Washington D.C….
Jim,
Thanks.
After hundreds and hundreds of applications over almost two years I am now employed for the season at 9.00 per hour, four hours a day.
I’m trying to be grateful…
MLD,
I think you’re addressing my question. What “giveaway” is tied to amnesty? Do stats exist that show that illegals who become legal chose welfare over work?
Jean et al,
No fair Googling – can anyone tell me 10 specific points that were included in the Senate Bill?
Jim,
It’s a combination – because their wages are low they also apply for benefits. Look, probably like you, I have an Hispanic gardener – I have never once asked to see his papers – that would be rude as no one asks to see mine.
I am talking policy – we should not have policies that encourage them to come here so that I can make them work in my yard for slave wages — why do some Americans think this is a good thing?
MLD,
I can see you’ve got a full head of steam on the immigration topic. I’m going to bow out at this point. I’m working on a series of devotions related to the Incarnation for Advent, which will draw heavily on these two books: Creation and Fall: Bonhoeffer, A Theological Exposition of Genesis 1-3; and Athanasius, On the Incarnation. If I don’t buckle down, I’m not going to be ready for the first one next Week.
Therefore, I will leave you in the capable hands of others here who share your passion.
I’m so happy that Michael has a part time job, and for this season and what it represents for mankind. 🙂
Now I’m wondering, however, if Jim is from Earth, what planet am I from?
MLD – I found your Norwegian comparison absurd because those folks would not be trying to leave their country to seek refuge from untenable conditions that we had a large hand in creating. While at the same time we sustain a job market of work, (agriculture, landscaping, child care, elder care to name only a few) by folks like you content to have a “don’t ask, don’t tell” attitude.
My son in law owns three large businesses that employ skilled labor. His employees are well compensated, including benefits. He only hires Guatemalans, as lazy white boys almost ruined him.
Jean,
France.
Jean,
“of others here who share your passion.”
I have no passion on this topic. I don’t want to send anyone home to Canada or even to cut off their benefits. I have an Hispanic gardener who I pay peanuts and I have Slovenian housekeepers that I even pay less. I am a happy American.
I rail only against those who think that new legislation is going to change anything. As I said earlier – we did the amnesty thing in the past with the promise of it being a one time only BECAUSE it was going to fix things. It didn’t and won’t again.
Anne,
“by folks like you content to have a “don’t ask, don’t tell” attitude.”
That is my position – I am not the government and it is not my job to help the government.
MLD,
I’m going to opt out as well as this is not going to end well.
Immigration in the past has always been regulated by our need and in a world that is constantly changing economically, socially, and politically, there will never be a “one time for all time” law that will address the issues.
Anne…well said.
MLD – If your landscaper or housekeepers get injured on the job, will you pay their medical bills? I know of one OC man of means who made that and other acts of generosity his policy. What say you?
I carry an umbrella policy to cover anyone hurt on my property. But these folks are contractors and not employees.
So here is the question – am I a hero for hiring these folks or am I contemptible for paying them only what they asked for?
MLD,
That is a matter of your conscience.
For most it’s better to make slave wages here in relative peace and safety then to make slave wages in American factories across the border…and live under the constant threat of violence and extortion.
Perhaps we may want to examine the issue holistically and come up with better choices…
I think we r missing the point of the issue around what the president did. He usurped the legal authority of his office to keep a promise to a demographic that will help his party win elections. Immigration was the issue this time. Racism could b the issue next time. Unions the next time. Gays the next time. When does it stop? This country is built on the rule of law. Without it we have anarchy or despotism. Regardless of whether it was right or wrong the President must follow the rules of law. Our political process is seriously broken and this administration from the AGs office to DHS to IRS to TSA is dysfunctional and out of control. I don’t know the solution but people need to recognize the problem.
This administration hasn’t done anything previous administrations haven’t done.
There are no good guys in this mess.
There haven’t been for a very long time…
Mark,
I understand your point, and would disagree with Michael in that the current administration has overstepped farther than recent predecessors.
I was coming from the standpoint of, we of course know his actions are illegal, ans we also know that the gop won’t do squat about it (other than posture), but what if this were done legally? Is amnesty the big bad wolf it’s being portrayed as?
Nobody in Washington D C really gives a squat about the little guy who works for a living. Both parties have failed ….they talk a good game …..both parties have their pet agendas.
Regardless of the political and cultural morass we are in,our purpose as the Body of Christ remains the same. We are called light bearing witnesses to a fallen world. Let’s try to keep our focus. To many people have put their faith in Americas political system and not in the Risen Christ.
My rant for the day.
I’m with the Dude. I lost any “faith” I had in politics, when I read the transcripts of the Watergate tapes back in the early 70’s. I was dope smoking hippie with low morals, and even I knew those guys were slime. Politics has only sunk further into a game of filth. From sending kids into war for big money corporations, to killing our own DEA agents, to letting our ambassador and his aides be slaughtered. I have no hope in our government, be it Democrat or Republican. I seek a better kingdom, and all I can do is to live my life to be a part of bringing His will on earth as it is in heaven.
I’m with Nonnie … well, I wasn’t a dope smoking hippie with low morals – but I was a long haired radical protesters, very close to one of the founders of the Weathermen.
The government tactics have not changed a bit. The government is not run by elected officials. It is run by those who ‘really’ put people in office. (again, I will repeat that if voting made a difference they wouldn’t let us do it.)
This is why legislation does not work. If the ‘real US government’ thinks it best that we have illegal slave labor in our country – this we will have no matter what the legislation says.
I mostly agree with the sentiments above, although I think change is possible. I also think that it won’t happen without something catastrophic occurring. I have an interest because I have grandchildren, and have found that I can be very interested in a wide array of topics while still loving God more than anything else.
The faith in govt vs faith in God argument is silly. Our faith rests in God alone, but we all have varied interests.
Jim, there is nothing in your post I would disagree with, other than the system changing outside of a revolution….I guess that would be catostophic. I have grandchildren also and I can’t even imagine what life will be like in 30 years if the culture continues to devolve. God help us.
“I take the constitution very seriously. The biggest problems that we’re facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the Executive branch and not go through Congress at all – and that’s what I intend to reverse when I’m President of the United States of America.”
“There are enough laws on the books by Congress that are very clear in terms of how we have to enforce our immigration system.”
“If, in fact, I could solve all these problems without passing laws in Congress, I would do so.”
“For me to simply, through executive order, ignore those congressional mandates would not conform with my appropriate role as President.”
“I swore an oath to uphold the laws on the books.”
“That’s not how our system works. That’s not how our Constitution is written.”
Obama.
Jim,
I would argue that there are two serious challenges facing our country:
1) There is intense tribalism within and between Americans, which has poisoned the political process from functioning effectively. By not addressing serious internal and external challenges, America is atrophying from within in terms of health and influence.
2) Other countries are not sitting still while America muddles along and atrophies. Particularly among the emerging nations, such as China, people there are hungry for a better life and governments are hungry for influence.
Historically, since many great civilizations have risen and fallen, I don’t know if America’s trajectory is reversible or not, but if it is, then I believe it would probably take either (a) a catastrophic event (whether of foreign origin, act of nature, or internal upheaval) or (b) a massive work of God (such as a renewal) bring back a spirit of “one nation under God.” Only in that spirit, do we have any hope at all of recovering the promise of America the Beautiful.
All it takes is one charismatic leader who believes in America (remember Obama never believed in America). We had such a leader three short decades ago. Change is very possible
Mark, I don’t know who you’re talking about, but you may be confused. We don’t need a charismatic leader to believe in America, we need such a leader to bring people to repentance and faith in Christ. If that happens, America can recover its shared vision of being one nation under God.
Yea…we need another great leader selling crack to finance his illegal covert operations. He believed in America…bastard was as crooked as anyone ever.
I do not believe in theocracy. Faith is an independent transformation not a national one. Yes we need faith but nothing short of the greatest revival in history could change America thru Christ. I’m talking about the restoration of our status, our economy and our freedoms
Mark,
“We had such a leader three short decades ago. Change is very possible”
LOL, he is the guy who Michael says caused all the drug issues that have led us to the immigration problems we have today.
Oh where is Nicholas Carpathia when you need him?
Michael u r delusional man. You r really losing it these days
Michael,
I’ve heard that the group behind the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero of El Salvador was a right wing group financed through those covert operations. Have you heard that?
Mark,
I waited all day for someone to mention Reagan…and my money was on you
Google Gary Webb and then come ask my forgiveness for your nasty ignorance.
Jean,
I don’t know…but I can find out.
Mark- documentation verifying what you call delusional from no longer classified docs is not too hard to find. Do yourself a favor and do some homework before you so hastily call a brother delusional or as the bible says it “raca”.
Consider this a public service announcement.
I’ve tried to tone it down over the years and I’ve tried to enable measured, Christ like dialog.
However…if you want to see the Michael of years gone by resurrected on fire, mess with the memory or work of Gary Webb.
It won’t end well.
Thank you, Anne…
Delusional…losing it.
Thank you for keeping me motivated to tell all the truth about this issue and CC…sometimes I wonder if it’s worth the grief.
It is.
I don’t know about the Michael of years gone by, but I like the one on Stitcher Radio. He’s a pretty cool dude. 🙂
When I was a teenager growing up in Marin County, CA, a lot of kids wanted a BMW 2002. Remember those? Anyway, I got a used one and used to get it served at a garage called Mellow Motors. I think “mellow” is a word we should recover for this decade.
Mellow out MLD 🙂
Jean,
The one from years gone by would have lit Mark up like the national Christmas tree.
This one will wait…
I remember Mr. Webbs articles in the mercury news but they backed off and that was when they lost their soul as a true news paper. They are now a paper tiger good for lining the bird cage. He was an extremely brave man.
They destroyed Webb.
He finally ended it with two shots to his own head.
Documents since declassified have vindicated him…and Charles Bowden finished his story just a few days before his own death.
Give me great men like Webb and Bowden…you can keep the charismatic crack dealer.
Michael, you should probably save your energies and focus.
You’ve been articulating what those things are for months now, do you really think it’s worth going back and resurrecting so many of the battles that have nearly sent you to an early grave are really worth it?
These political battles are useless. I despise them all (politicians) too be honest. The whole system is corrupt and has been co-opted by forces so dark and nefarious, hoping for a political solution to what is coming our way, is foolish in my opinion.
Peace out.
Scott,
If I drop dead shining a light in those dark and nefarious places, I will die in good company.
Ironically, I told my pastor the other day that since the publication of Bowdens last article that wraps up almost thirty years of loose ends that I have found some peace and come to terms with his death.
He finished the work he was created to do.
I want to do the same.
I do need to pick my shots though and probably need to back away tonight.
Blessings…
“Once you say ‘that can’t be’ you turn your back on the hard work that produces the misery around us.”
Bowden
So Jim @#1
I only have read your post thus far; but I have a question for you.
What would you say about President Reagan’s ‘executive order 12324 interdiction of illegal aliens’ since he did the same thing essentially ?
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=44317
I can assume then that you feel Regan’s actions were also unlawful?
David,
Reagan was an actor, and what Michael has referenced here tonight is true. I’m no fan.
I don’t know or care about his exec order and I’ve tried to avoid discussing Obama’s. My question is, is amnesty good or bad? I realized this week that my opposition was based on preconceived notions that are probably incorrect.
1. Will amnesty stress our already out of control welfare state, or will those who come out of the shadows become workers and producers.
2. Is there a finite number of jobs in the US.
I reject # 2, and strongly question # 1. I want data,, but my gut tells me that immigrants want to work.
Jim,
Here in Iowa we have a lot of meat processing plants. If you drive near one, the scent will turn your stomach. They tend to be staffed by Mexicans, Central Americans or Hmong. They don’t pay great and the work in manual and hard. I doubt confidently that the immigrants are taking any jobs away from Caucasian or black Americans. If their illegal, then they’re probably getting screwed and can’t do anything about it.
Michael there are no declassified documents that vindicated Webb. That is a mischaracterization. The declassified documents criticized the CIA for turning a blind eye to where the money came from but found no evidence of any CIA conspiracy to bring drugs into the US. You called President Reagan a crack dealer and basically hold him responsible for the plight of millions of Central Americans who have been victims of corrupt despots for 100 years. I call Ronald Reagan the greatest president of my lifetime who implemented the largest tax cut ever, ended the Cold War, restored American patriotism and presided over the least partisan congress in decades. Much smarter political historians than you I or Gary Webb would agree with my assessment. I offered up a president who implemented real positive change in this country and u responded with an hysterical hatchet job. It’s your blog so go ahead and “light me up” because it will only go to demonstrate the vindictiveness you too often wear like a badge of honor
Mark,
All the facts are out there for anyone to see.
You can believe whatever you choose…you have a long history of self deception.
However, you are exhibiting incredible ignorance and your typical vindictiveness when one of your idols is shown to have feet of manure.
It seems to me that they all do…
Like Jim at 67, my question is: will this immigration action lock down congress and the presidency for many many years with a single party like some news channels are predicting.
I’m on a few outdoors sites as well and the left believes this will finally reign in gun rights and the 2A with the new immigrants voting for bills the dems support since the dems helped them get legal. The point of a participular article (pro 2A) was that Mexicans and those from Central America are used to civil wars, coups, need for protection from cartels and having no gun rights. These folks understand the necessity of gun rights WRT freedom. We may end up with many more pro 2A pro freedom voters in the future than people think.
None of us perceives reality objectively, because to a certain extent we are all captive to our economic, racial, cultural, upbringing, and social circumstances. This is natural. For those of us who are aware of our biases, at our best we attempt to overcome them through dialogue and “listening” to others. However, there are those among us who either don’t see their perceptual limitations or who just don’t care; who live in a thought ghetto; for whom there is black and white, good and evil; and for whom their ideology is “the” good.
I am not an enemy of the memory of Ronald Reagan. He was my Commander in Chief during my military service. However, I remember the Beirut Bombing and the Iran/Contra hearings. I remember his opponents accusing him and his Administration of flaunting the laws.
Some people on here accuse the current President of breaking the law, of not believing in America, as though he is a spy for a foreign country trying to destroy America. Shame on you. Who on here is qualified to analyze the legality of the President’s action this week on immigration and pass judgment on its legality? Do you really think he didn’t analyze its legality and come to a decision which in his and his legal advisor’s professional opinions complied with the Constitution?
Every year, in every administration, the U.S. Supreme Court hears numerous cases. It is the nature of our system that laws and actions of government are judicially reviewed. That’s the way our system works. It’s one of the strengths of our system. When a Republican is in office, the Democrats bemoan his actions; when a Democrat is in office, the Republicans bemoan his actions. Some times laws or actions are overturned; other times they’re not.
The President was elected twice. The people spoke twice regarding his policies. There will be another election in two years. If the President’s opponents think they have better solutions, they can start passing laws and campaigning on them, and the American people will decide whether they want them.
Jean,
I am sure the next guy or gal will be equally inept and before long in office become corrupt.
I blast them all – I blasted the previous amnesty giver – Ronald Wilson Reagan – who if I remember correctly was the anti christ as each of his names have 6 letter = 666
Actually, the only government I trust is my city and county. They supply me water, police & fire protection, and haul away my trash.
Believe me, the Russians do not give the credit to Reagan for ending the cold war. They have their own ideas about that. I myself have no idea who is correct.
MLD,
“Actually, the only government I trust is my city and county.”
Duh, you’re in the OC. Who wouldn’t? Don’t you guys have the tree of life smack dab in the middle 🙂
Michael,
I have no horse in the Gary Webb thing, but since you challenged us to Google I found this opinion piece that is current (due to the release of the movie) and is by the guy who is the The Washington Post’s assistant managing editor for investigations – Jeff Leen
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gary-webb-was-no-journalism-hero-despite-what-kill-the-messenger-says/2014/10/17/026b7560-53c9-11e4-809b-8cc0a295c773_story.html
I know you will probably label him a hack – but The Post has a great reputation for investigative reporting … long after Watergate and Leen was working a similar story in Miami during Webb’s time frame.
It’s an interesting read.
Leen is a known commodity to people who study this stuff.
http://narconews.com/Issue67/article4769.html
My guess is that people will want to play dueling links…it might actually serve to read Webb’s book and the book that the movie was based on.
When you’re done with that then you can read “Legacy of Ashes” about the CIA and Bowdens last article…and maybe then we can have a real conversation.
Nice discussion… I guess.. too much to digest just now
But here is an aside … an FSU fan calling for Winston’s departure…
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/11/21/time-for-florida-state-say-goodbye-jameis-winston/QjUHBukbfUOaTqmefkqJ5L/story.html
Maddeningly, Winston has been mawkishly praised for overcoming “adversity.” Sorry, it’s not overcoming adversity if you created it.
Does this remind anyone of another issue?
“My guess is that people will want to play dueling links”
Is that analogous to a Baptist sword fight?
BD,
I’m still trying to understand why the morality and ethics of football players and other athletes is an issue.
If they break the law prosecute them.
If we were to banish all jackasses from working for a living unemployment would be at about 70%…
Jean,
Very close… 😉
It’s like those trying to railroad Bill Cosby.
MLD,
The Washington Post you just referenced released an atomic bomb on Cosby tonight…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/bill-cosbys-legacy-recast-accusers-speak-in-detail-about-sexual-assault-allegations/2014/11/22/d7074938-718e-11e4-8808-afaa1e3a33ef_story.html
Bowden follows up on Webbs story in 1999…
http://www.esquire.com/features/pariah-gary-webb-0998
He finishes the story a few days before his death last August…
https://medium.com/matter/blood-on-the-corn-52ac13f7e643
One thing that really concerns me about the current conflict with ISIS is the analogy to the 80s. For the Christian, is the enemy of my enemy my friend? Do the ends justify the means?
This current conflict is complicated because the enemy we are fighting is also the enemy of our other enemies (i.e., Syria and Iran). Do we even understand what we’re doing. Will more lives be lost or saved by our actions? Who are we actually helping? Is anyone even asking the right questions?
Jean – it’s the reason we should be totally hands off in the Middle East right now. We have no friends and we have all enemies.
Michael, for someone who deadpanned dueling links, you are the one who continues on.
Cosby’s a dog just like the basketball players and Adrian Peterson with kids all over the place… and Winston at FSU.
First, this isn’t amnesty.
“AM’NESTY, n. [Gr. of a neg and memory, from the root of mens, mind. See Mind.]
An act of oblivion; a general pardon of the offenses of subjects against the government, or the proclamation of such pardon.”
–Noah Webster
This isn’t a pardon, it isn’t amnesty.
#88,
MLD,
I hear you, but what I’m also hearing, and what I expect to hear more of during the next 2 years, is a contest among the next presidential candidates (Republican and Democrat) over who is the bigger bad a**. Rand Paul has been excoriated, so all that’s left to run on is bomb everything that moves.
MLD,
You’re right.
This stuff has kept me up nights for years and I don’t let go easily.
Jean,
Honest question…. party loyalty aside, why would a progressive vote for Hillary over Rand?
Michael,
You need to find a cause that is smaller and local, where you can do something for change.
There is not one thing you can do to change one thing in Latin America … but you can in the Rogue River Valley.
Jim,
I appreciate your honesty. Let me try to respond to your #93 briefly:
First, I’m not buying into the labels of progressive and conservative. The “progressive” label perpetuates a falsehood that mankind possesses the wherewithal to somehow progress towards some greater destiny. I think progressivism has proven false.
However, neither to I embrace the conservative label, because it begs the question: What do I want to conserve? It is usually, whatever I like about the past. Was it Jim Crow? Was it no regulations on coal fired power plants that rained down acid rain on the North East? Was it the time before Social Security and Medicare were enacted? Was it before women could vote?
Why would someone vote for Hillary over Rand?
The thing that influences me the most is God’s revelation in the Bible. I see two relevant themes in the Bible: (1) left to ourselves, man operates under the rule of “the strong eat the weak”; and (2) God intervenes to defend and protect the weak. So, my concern is for the weak and powerless in society. In our democracy, my concern is to provide people with an opportunity to move from poor to middle class and even to upper class. I think social movement potential is of paramount importance in our society. Historically, social movement potential and a strong middle class have been defining strengths of America.
The biggest weakness I see with the libertarian agenda is that it assumes that there is a free market for most everything. People should have the maximum freedom to do whatever they want, as long as they don’t impinge upon anyone else’s freedom.
The problem is that things like clean air, clean water, safe working conditions, access to high quality education and healthcare and political influence don’t work for the poor under a free market system. Free markets in these areas didn’t work for the poor during biblical times and they don’t work for Americans today. Therefore, I believe that government must play an appropriate role to ensure the protection of people who don’t have the power to protect themselves. I would trust Hillary Clinton to navigate that role better than Rand Paul.
Thanks Jean.
Jim,
So how is the weather down your way? 🙂
Whether your pro amnesty or against it can be debated. But the data predicts that 98% of people from Mexico and the rest Latin America who crossed illegally will vote democrat once amnesty is passed. And that majority of that 98% will also go on welfare system as the model shows as seen with anchor babies. IMO this whole amnesty situation is really about about securing future votes for the democratic party.
Michael I did sort of follow the advice of MLD many years ago, I loath politics but on the local level I have found that a small group of dedicated people can have a dramatic effect on the local political situation. I chose affordable housing, senior housing, and programs for people with disabilities. A few rabbit trails include equitable pay, working conditions etc. On the local front we have had several very profound successes. It does encourage me when I am an extremely small part of such situations. The problem is that is so time consuming, it requires many many hours of going to meetings, writing letters, making phone calls, reading legislation, reading case law, walking neighborhoods etc.
It is good to have a victory once in a while. Just a thought. I will be honest the victories I have experienced have not really given me peace or given me joy. As a follower of Jesus I have always considered those unreasonable expectations, even a sin.
No serious issues but I am going dark on facebook and the few blogs I post until after thanksgiving. I may read from time to time but want to just go back to God. Thanks I wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving holiday.
I have an Hispanic gardener who I pay peanuts and I have Slovenian housekeepers that I even pay less. I am a happy American.
Martin Luther’s Disciple
November 22, 2014
So here is the question – am I a hero for hiring these folks or am I contemptible for paying them only what they asked for?
–‘Cursed is he who distorts the justice due an alien, orphan, and widow.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’ (Deuteronomy 27:19 NASB)
You wouldn’t pay an old widow Ina desperate situation from unexpected medical bills less for gardening, would you?
An orphan whose parents just died in a fire deserve less?
THAT is what you’re doing to those WOPs….”without papers.”
Give them a pay raise, please.
It’s not amnesty.
And voting rights aren’t even remotely on the table.
And we Americans are to blame for all immigration because
(1) of all the drugs we sniff up our nose and the like and
(2) of the 28 million working age (16-41 years of age) “missing workers” since Roe. Not arguing legality, discussing the reality…of demographics that our combined national sexuality produces.
JTK,
For all you know I pay them more than you earn … but you missed my questions.
1.) If these people came to my door asking for work and I hired them is that not good?
2.) If they said they wanted $100 per month (a figure I will use as an example and may or may not be real) to do the work and i give them what they ask for am I not 100% fair?
Now look at it from another angle. How many hear do NOT hire people to do work around the house saying “I’m not paying someone else to do what I can do myself.” Are they not the selfish ones who would rather keep all their money as their own without spreading it around?
I pay my people just fine … that’s why they have worked with me for the past 12 yrs.
btw – you said “THAT is what you’re doing to those WOPs….”without papers.” I never said my people were ‘without papers” – I said I never ask as it would be rude.
MLD said
Now look at it from another angle. How many hear do NOT hire people to do work around the house saying “I’m not paying someone else to do what I can do myself.” Are they not the selfish ones who would rather keep all their money as their own without spreading it around?
Surely you r being sarcastic right? U don’t believe people who do it yourself instead of paying others r being selfish?
Michael I know u champion guys like Webb and Bowden and aspire to be the same kind of muckraker on this blog. But to call President Reagan a crack dealer is not only ludicrous it makes u look like an idiot. There is not a single shred of evidence on the record that Reagan ever authorized the sale of crack to fund covert operations. I’ll leave it at that.
I have shared personal details of my history with you offline and to have u state publicly that I have a history of self deception is both hurtful and insensitive. I will no longer post on this blog. There r others posting here who have said much worse than me but u cut them slack. With all of the demons I’m battling in my life I don’t need the “Phoenix Preacher” as another one. God bless
Good Q & A from a libertarian perspective.
God bless, Mark. I saw much merit in many of the things you posted and I appreciate your unswerving loyalty to those you admire and love. I will miss your presence here.
Brian, happy Thanksgiving!
Michael, heed MLD’s #94. It is very good advice.
Xenia,
That assumes I do nothing here already.
I think people need to deal with reality and the reality is that there is a deep vein of corruption that runs throughout our government and has for a long time.
I made the mistake of reading Matt Walsh’s blog on this issue yesterday…and four people came right out and advocated the assassination of the President in the comments.
That kind of response is what misinformation and willful division is creating.
The issues of the drug war and immigration have consequences in my community and in my neighborhood.
They are “local” issues as much as the local library levy…except no one is dying if it doesn’t pass.
Mark,
This is your third or fourth swan song and you’ll be back as soon as I publish something about CC…back to tell everyone how wrong I am and all is well in the world despite what I write.
When my book comes out you’ll lead the parade to shout that I’m going to split hell open sideways.
What you call muckraking I call truth telling…I can never be what Webb or Bowden were…I’m not that gifted or courageous.
The best I can do is try and I will keep doing so.
question – why were there immigration laws in the first place? shouldn’t America (north, south and central) just continue as one grand experiment of ‘survival of the fittest?’
why not allow as many in as want to come, no matter what the reason?
isn’t there always room at the dinner table for one more?
didn’t read the thread … history marches on and on and seldom has a good outcome and the sea of humanity ebbs and flows with the tides … but there was that one brief shining moment … how did that happen anyway?
Michael, the problem I see is that it appears you are “selective” in how you express and to what you direct your outrage to when it comes to corruption in our political arena. Which is your prerogative, it is your blog after all 😉
Scott,
I try to stick to things I’ve actually taken the time to study.
Most of what I read on most topics is based on partisan politics…and frankly, it’s impossible of know where the truth lies in many cases.
This subject I’ve studied for years and have a measure of confidence in making an informed opinion.
Michael,
“and have a measure of confidence in making an informed opinion.”
You have an informed opinion and I have an uninformed opinion and we are both equally ineffective in mounting change.
How does your congressman reacted to your informed opinion?
this government of ours solves their debt problem by printing money, which results in diluting both the debt and the value of the money …
similarly IMV we import worker bees, which solves the employment problem all around for one generation, but worker bees want their children to have a better life, i.e., a higher standard of living as in better jobs and more money and their children’s children – the grandchildren? they weren’t raised to perform the low pay manual labor that their, now retired, grandparents did … and we’ll need more worker bees …
can these cycles go on forever?
just sitting here, pondering … again … no opinions … guess i’ll go watch the diluted Seahawks lose another game
Only 36% of the individuals in America who were eligible to vote actually voted this last election.
And yet something like 80% have strong opinions politically; and most of them will participate in the conversation if it drifts into the political arena.
We need to vote as a free people.
I was amazed at the amount of my own acquaintances that never even vote.
I would love to see my far left leaning friends vote and I would love to see my far right leaning friends vote.
Ever since civics was no longer required to be taught in the public school systems; voter turn out has dramatically fallen.
A free people need to vote and participate in their governance.
As Christians, we should be the first to seek to change any law that is unjust. At the same time, we are also to demonstrate our submission to God by obeying the government He has placed in authority over us.
“Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God” (1 Peter 2:13–16).
I don’t know what MLD pays those workers, but I would pretty much guarantee it is more than the legal minimum wage which is $9.00 an hour. And that is with the 15.30% self-employment tax which MLD’s workers may or may not be paying (as it is not his responsibility if they are independent contractors and I am guessing they are).
Out here in Southern California, you aren’t just going to find guys to hop in the back of your truck and then give them 2 bucks an hour at the end of the day of work. They’re almost always going to find out what you need done, and negotiate a price before they agree to work for you that day.
As far as steady businesses go, that choose to undermine their competition by breaking the employment laws, the government should throw the book at THEM – not the illegals they employ.
Anybody see the Beckham catch for NY? Oh my! Three finger catch, in the air and brings it in from over his shoulder as he hits the ground. Google it. Collinsworth said it was the best catch he’s seen in his life. I don’t know about that after watching Gronk for several years.
SJ, I would chime in and add that Beckham Jr and Gronk both made the best catches I have ever seen in one season. Stallworth’s catch was great but these two are better. Athletic, acrobatic and graceful.
Yah you are right, the Gronk catch, what like two weeks ago for a TD was pretty good. There are so many with Gronk. One handed over the shoulder somersaulting hitting the ground. You could not even tell where the ball went.
SJ, the cool thing about Gronk & Beckham is that there is still many more catches to come. I think that you are right the Gronk catch was two weeks ago. It’s been a fun year. Go 9ers!
I hope Michael is at his first day of work and not laying on the floor having been attacked and eaten by those damn cats! 😉
Cats are a tool of the enemy.
are cats mentioned in the Bible?
mother of a cat lover here baby-sitting 2 of the darn things … i think, personally, they belong outside where the mice live
Wow Michael, really classy posts by you in this thread. people like you crack me up. You hate on Reagan, but give Clinton and Obama complete free passes. You might wish to read up on all the people close to BC who suddenly and mysteriously met their demise. Lots of conincidences.
Michael, your comment #108, regarding the deep vein of corruption….you forgot to add….except for when Dems are in office. They’re there for love of country and to serve their fellow mankind.
What an absolute disgrace Michael.
At Jim (#93), in answer to your question, find an article from the Huff Post last week. I believe the title was something like…Why I’m a liberal Democrat and support Rand Paul for President.
Daniel,
No one asked about Clinton or Obama…
I already stated that Obama was not held in high regard among proponents of immigration reform.
I also stated that this corruption has gone on for a long time.
Mark wanted to make Reagan the poster boy for all that’s good and American and I answered him.
What’s disgraceful is that you are so blinded and enraged by ideology that you can’t bother to ask for an opinion before you blast me…
Yah, so here’s what the ultra right wing Washington Post thinks of Webb:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gary-webb-was-no-journalism-hero-despite-what-kill-the-messenger-says/2014/10/17/026b7560-53c9-11e4-809b-8cc0a295c773_story.html
Daniel,
I answered that earlier.
If Webb were the only source you might have a case…however others have now verified Webb’s work.
LOL, it’s totally obvious that YOU’RE the one who is blinded by your rage. You know zero about me or my ideology.
But fine, it’s your blog, so I’ll play along. What do you think of the integrity of BC and BO and their administrations?
Daniel,
It’s pretty clear what your ideology is when you keep speaking of “liberals” and come unglued at any besmirching of Reagans name.
I personally do not think either party is anything but representative of the ruling oligarchy and I don’t believe any administration in recent memory has walked in anything resembling integrity.
I’m not a political wonk…my concern and study is on one issue that I speak to on the blog.
Thanks for the response. But once again, happy to say, you’re wrong and that you know zero about me. But, I will give you a clue. IMO, the two worst presidents of all time, in whatever order, are GWB and BO.
And…it’s not so much that I care about RR, it’s just a totally cowardly act on your part to complain that he was corrupt, but have no comment on any other administration. Your cry of “I haven’t studied those” is beyond weak. It’s completely obvious to any casual observer that all modern administrations are corrupt to the core.
Daniel,
The discussion was around drugs and immigration, not on corruption in general.
I posted an article earlier this week that was centered on the CIA’s activities in regard to drug trafficking during the Reagan administration.
These were comments centered around one subject.
Have a lovely day.