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159 Responses

  1. Michael says:

    Military coup happening in Turkey…

  2. Michael says:

    Strongly recommend this interview on the book “The End of White Christian America”…

  3. Bob says:


    Can it get any worse than this for us?

    Just sayin…….

  4. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Can it get any worse than this for us?”

    Yes, we could be living like they do in the Sudan. So, where are you going for dinner tonight?

  5. Dan from Georgia says:

    Alright, let’s put down the Left Behind books now….

  6. David H says:

    Laurie’s going to have field day with coup in Turkey.

  7. Cash says:

    This coup in Turkey is very serious as I believe Turkey is a member of NATO.

  8. David H says:

    The coup is a big deal. They rarely end well. So far the coup leaders have said they will continue Turkish agreements with other nations. How they react if people start taking it to the streets will tell a lot about the reality of this chain of events.

  9. David H says:

    I’m cringing at what certain “Christian” leaders are going to be saying about it. Especially, since I’m in no way convinced they really have of what’s happening. Tabloid prophecy scares me, because the “sheeple” tend to be so gullible.

  10. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well the “sheeple” should read their Bibles and know that all the rapture last days stuff is all a hoax.

  11. Erunner says:

    This needs to play out as it’s still early. I’m sure the Evangelicals have somehow played a role in this as it’s clear they’re a bigger problem than Islamic terrorism…… which may not even be involved.

  12. Em ... again says:

    Turkey is in a power struggle at the moment, but i suspect that we don’t have a clue as to who will be involved in the outcome – a successful coup would be best for us, i think…

    rapture or not we move steadily toward a global call for a strong world leader and of course that fake Christ, the sweet and peaceful Jesus that the Christians like to say is coming… the one that MLD says won’t come?

  13. Dan from Georgia says:

    Michael (2), actually interested in reading the book too. Seems like there is a lot of this “end of white christian america” talk going around on blogs. Just wondering if this is what folks like Franklin Graham are crying about…had to get that jab in.

    Now back to our end time prophecy talk and how it is well known how the military coup in Turkey fits right in to Lahaye’ism, er……prophecy (TM).

  14. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “rapture or not we move steadily toward a global call for a strong world leader”

    I am not as old as Em, but at 67 I can say that I have never once, outside of Hal Lindsey books and the Left Behind stuff, heard a single person of any significance ever, ever call for a “world leader” (strong or otherwise)

    This is what I am talking about – the rapture folks have all hoaxed each other into thinking this is real world thought.

    Anyway – when Jesus returns, it will not be because of a military coup in Turkey.

  15. Erunner says:

    I’m one of the millions that read the Left Behind series. I like fiction and I loved the John Grisham books. They were page turners and I read them and then would see the movies that followed.

    The Left Behind series was fiction and I never took it for more than that. I was aware that the marketing was over the top as was the marketing for the Prayer of Jabez which I didn’t read. I suspect there are others out there like me.

    Something potentially serious is taking place in Turkey. Yesterday we saw yet another bloodbath in France that included little children and two Americans.

    I think it’s a bit childish in light of real tragedy that Evangelicals are mocked and their belief in a pre trib rapture is ridiculed.

    Either we’re one in Christ or we’re not.

    And yes, I was humiliated when an Evangelical was talking in a loud voice declaring our president is a Muslim in a crowd of elbow to elbow people on the 4th of July.

  16. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “I think it’s a bit childish in light of real tragedy that Evangelicals are mocked and their belief in a pre trib rapture is ridiculed. ”

    Only because they see something on the news and immediately tie it directly to some phantom bible passage.

    Jesus in Matthew 24 is quite clear that all history is a sign – not to the end time events but they testify to the reason there is an end. Every generation since the cross has gone through these exact same senarios — but Jesus said “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.”

    1.) You will hear – see on CNN etc
    2.) Do not be alarmed – but the rapture folks sound the alarm several times a year.
    3.)This is not the end – again, world history points to an end – we as a people are vile and wicked and there will be an end … but this is not it.

    So yes, some of us do get upset at the rapture crowd for leading people astray… purposely.

  17. Em ... again says:

    MLD, you assume wrongly that those of us who see clear evidence that a removal of the Church before the wrath of God is poured out on the earth are naive, inclined to feed on drama and look for signs around every corner and in the tree tops

    i have listened to and read the studies of some very scholarly men who are not or did not make their living writing books on the subject – page turners or otherwise … i respect your right to place your complete trust in Martin Luther and his disciples and i think that’s right where you belong; i have no desire to dissuade you from that path…

    get upset with the rapture crowd and continue to beat the tub for calm, but don’t assume that those of us who read very strong hints of the end not playing out quite as you see it are looking for excitement or spiritual superiority… God might not like you picking on us 🙂

    i’m too lazy to care whether you’ve picked up on the move toward globalism with a strong central leadership… but, are we “there” yet? i dunno – it’s God’s clock and He could rewind it quite a few times before He allows it to strike midnight … or not …

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “i respect your right to place your complete trust in Martin Luther and his disciples…”

    I don’t know about Luther as he did not speak much on the topic of Jewish eschatological millennialism – but I do know that probably 80% of the Christian Church rejects that view you hold of the end – and the Church has been doing so for 2,000 years. that in and of itself doesn’t make your view wrong, but it should give pause.

    But you are right – you can believe whatever you want and I can speak against false teachings.

    It’s Open Blogging so what the heck – Em Jesus himself in Matt 25:31-46 speaks very clearly of his return. Find a millennial kingdom in there and I will but down my Bible.

  19. Dallas says:

    This was actually really enjoyable to write and sparked some good conversation with my wife tonight.

    Autobiography in Books

  20. Erunner says:

    MLD, the rapture crowd and Evangelicals seem to be interchangeable. If people choose to be pre trib then we have to deal with it. Of course there are examples of folks who see the rapture and current headlines as a means to sell books, have seminars, etc.

    I’ve seen that for 40 years now. But the extremes don’t extend to those who hold to the pre trib belief in a serious manner.

    I look around and wonder how much longer can this insanity last? I’m fully aware we in America don’t have a clue to real persecution as experienced by our brethren around the world. When they are martyred I’m not concerned if they were Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, or Evangelicals. I’m saddened because they were my brothers and sisters.

    I’m also grieved when Muslims or any other non Christian group is slaughtered for no good reason. I have gone out of my way on FB to try and bring attention to those innocents as well. In my mind any life lost to terrorism or some man who decides to shoot up a church is a tragedy.

    I’ve seen people here tout universalism, no hell, and classify the God of the OT as a monster. They are better received than Evangelicals who have pretty much disappeared from this community.

    I do find it childish when tragedy strikes with who knows what is happening to innocent people to immediately bring up the Evangelical kooks who are seen as a danger to the church because of their beliefs. I find the timing terrible and insensitive to those who may be dying at this very moment.

  21. Michael says:

    I’ve been saying this for a long time…”But in American pop culture parlance, ‘evangelical’ now basically means whites who consider themselves religious and who vote Republican.”

  22. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Dallas – good article and list. I have read the Bible (although some would question that) I read Mere Christianity and a few Hemingway books.

    My granddaughter, who turned 13 yesterday reads constantly – and real books with binding. She is halfway through her 2nd read of the Harry Potter books.

  23. Michael says:


    You can’t blame me or MLD for pointing out that every time a foul wind blows the prophecy wonks are out in force.

    I believe in the Second Coming…and I also believe that what is propagated by the pretrib ODM’s is more of a false Gospel than Rome ever thought about.

  24. Michael says:

    Dan from Georgia,

    Get the book…it explains the whole mess.

    I’m not sure what the future holds,but we know what it’s going to look like…

  25. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael – and for longer we Lutherans have had a similar opinion – we were the original Protestants and Evangelicals – Evangelical be the name before Lutheran. But we had to give it up in the 60’s – 80s when the crazies took over and soon after that had to give up the Protestant nameplate as the crazies spilled over.

    I think for right now, I am going to go with ‘we are the catholics who got it right.’ — and be done. 😉

  26. Michael says:


    I’m reading the book on “The End of White Christian America” and all the researchers and pollsters really don’t have a category for the churches of the Reformation.

    This may allow us to be subversive… 🙂

  27. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I said here a couple of weeks ago, when I strike up a conversation, and am asked, I do not identify as a Christian or as a follower of Christ – because both will stop the conversation immediately. i say I am a Lutheran – and almost everyone will engage and say “what is that” — and then I can speak.

    No one knows what a Lutheran is. 🙂

  28. Erunner says:

    Michael, I’m not blaming anyone. I’m trying to distinguish between the people out there who have gone overboard in how they view the end times and those who hold to the same pre trib view who do so responsibly.

    It saddens me that the timing of many remarks are taking place at the same time innocent people are possibly losing their lives under who knows what circumstances.

    The venom I see towards what is termed Evangelicals seems to draw as much venom from the world and from some in the church.

    Heck, you can’t even get a consensus on who is the church these days. It seems the tent grows wider every day.

  29. Michael says:


    I try to be an equal opportunity venom spitter. 🙂

    For me, the tent is pretty wide.
    I see it being shrunk to the size of a sock with a stick in it some places…

  30. Erunner says:

    MLD, I always identify myself as a Christian. It has opened doors to excellent dialogue as it allows me to share the Gospel. It has opened doors for me to share with Mormons and JW’s quite often. And as they see themselves as Christians it allows me the opportunity the differences between their false faith and what the Bible says about who Jesus is which is always at the core of our differences. Each time afterwards I pray for them that God might use something I shared to penetrate the darkness that keeps them in bondage.

  31. Josh the Beloved says:

    I’m not ashamed , and can’t think of anytime. That i tell so and so I’m a Christian man. Where it ever lead to the end of a conversation. And if it ever does, then so be it. However the more real, authentic, bold and upfront iam. God gives me more grace to minister. Jesus said let your light so shine, not hide it under the basket of a denomination or dead leader of that denomination.

  32. Surfer51 says:

    The following statement from the Turkey group was reportedly read on local television:

    “Turkish Armed Forces have completely taken over the administration of the country to reinstate constitutional order, human rights and freedoms, the rule of law and the general security that was damaged.

    All international agreements are still valid.

    We hope that all of our good relationships with all countries will continue.”

    At face value it seems like a good thing.


    Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan has issued a statement in a FaceTime call to CNN Turk urging Turkish citizens to take to the streets to defend “Turkish democracy.”

    He urges the Turkish people to convene at public squares and airports, saying there is no power higher than the power of the people.

    Ya Da Ya Da Ya Da…

  33. Michael says:

    I always tell them it’s none of their damn business… 🙂

    Here, a Christian is a white religious person who votes Republican.

    That’s what they basically say on the radio all day.
    I do not wish to be identified as such…at all…ever.

    Say “Reformed Anglican’ and they ask no more questions…or they ask really good ones.

  34. Erunner says:

    Michael, at my core I want people to come to faith. The alternative scares me even though I have no control over others and that I’m not responsible for their salvation or damnation.

    What concerns me more than anything is to give an unbeliever a false hope in something that isn’t the Gospel.

    Since I can’t buy into annihilation, soul sleep, or the idea there is no hell I will never offer them as an option. For me that is a false hope that I can’t get behind.

    It disturbs me as much as you when I see people eliminating pretty much everyone from the kingdom. I have and will always stay with core beliefs I hold dear.

    There’s a reason I have hung around for as long as I have.

  35. Scott says:

    “No one knows what a Lutheran is.”

    Most millennials in this country can’t even identify George Washington, let alone a Lutheran.

  36. Erunner says:

    Michael, I always make the point I’m not part of the sweeping generalization that many have as to what a Christian is. I have found that if I talk to and not past people they will generally respond in kind. But we all have different convictions on how we handle this. That works for me.

  37. surfer51 says:

    We American Christians view the world like this it seems:

  38. Scott says:

    The Dodger radio broadcasters (not Vin Scully) stink. Just sayin…

  39. Michael says:


    I have complete confidence that you do very well.
    Much better than I do , I’ll bet.

  40. CostcoCal says:

    Scott….I agree!!

  41. Scott says:

    Good grief, seems like “white guilt” has taken hold. Not only is it in vogue to belittle evangelicals, but it seems in vogue to do the same with white christians who happen to vote Republican.

  42. Michael says:

    It’s an important demographic reality to understand. That’s not belittling it and I have no clue where you drag white guilt out of it.

  43. Muff Potter says:

    “Laurie’s going to have field day with coup in Turkey.”

    Not just Mr. Laurie. All the prophecy pimps are gonna milk this for all it’s worth.

  44. Erunner says:

    Michael, I have three children that are not walking with God. Each of them explains to me it was their experiences in CC that hurt them so deeply. One of them has rejected the faith.

    My ability to not discern things harmed them. At times I feel as if I failed in my most important job of all. So I pray constantly for them.

    I got suckered by my blind allegiance to the things I now abhor.

    In the midst of everything you have been an encouragement to me on a personal level and it’s here that I learned things I didn’t want to hear.

    If it wan’t for this blog I don’t know where I’d be now.

    I have my triggers and I speak up at times. I used to be afraid to because all I wanted was to be a people pleaser.

    All I can do is what God enables me to. Just as with you.

  45. Michael says:


    You did the best you could do and in the end your kids have to take responsibility for themselves.
    My guess is that your prayers and more so, your life, are the best testimony they could ever see about Christianity.

    We all have triggers and because we have a bunch of different ones here, we all learn something.

    We’re all glad you’re still here…

  46. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Scott, check out Todd Starves article on, is he Fox or CNN? The article on the billboard for God is not Dead 2.

    The important part is the description of the Sunday church service before the GOP convention. This is why some of us choose to be in vogue putting distance between evangelical and Christian.

    I would post the article but do not know how from my phone.

  47. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael – thank you.
    A church service sponsored by the GOP.
    I rest my case.

  48. Michael says:

    A church service featuring a “rabbi” who will sue the pants off of you for telling the truth about his piece of crap eschatological screed.

    This says it all for me…

    “Democrats are not all that fond of the Almighty. In fact, you might remember back in 2012, when they booed God during their political convention in Charlotte. I can’t recall if that was before or after they tried to remove Him from the party platform.

    Republicans, on the other hand, believe we are one nation under God – and the Almighty is always welcome at their political conventions.”

  49. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Now I do agree with the main thrust of Todd Starnes’ article that the Christians get treated like crap and that the billboard should have been placed – but that was probably old America.

  50. Michael says:


    I think that’s a good observation.

    This book I’m inhaling really shows why there is a “new” and an “old” America.
    The numbers are staggering…we really are in the midst of a huge cultural shift.

  51. CostcoCal says:

    I boycott the G.O.P! Yet the problem is that Hillary may just be as bad.

  52. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I need to go to bed. I heard God called off the rapture for tonight because the coup in Turkey was defeated.

  53. Michael says:


    I heard the same thing.
    Now I need to get off the roof… 🙂

  54. Em ... again says:

    #18-regarding Jesus’ words – i have no problem with Matt 25:31-46

    “Give me oil in my lamp
    Keep me burning
    Give me oil in my lamp I pray,
    Give me oil in my lamp.
    Keep me burning, burning, burning
    Keep me burning till the break of the day
    Sing Hosanna, sing Hosanna,
    Sing Hosanna to the King of Kings,
    Sing Hosanna, Sing Hosanna,
    Sing Hosanna to the King.”

    🙂 🙂 🙂

    there really isn’t any need on my part to argue the case for the Church being taken out before the wrath of God is poured out on this place, as described in the last book
    and there really isn’t any reason why 80% of the Church needs to divert from their focus on their walk to explore the possibility – stay the course MLD

    God keep all close

  55. Em ... again says:

    #51-“This book I’m inhaling really shows why there is a “new” and an “old” America.
    The numbers are staggering…we really are in the midst of a huge cultural shift.”

    amen to that observation

    now i’m gone

  56. brian says:

    “know that all the rapture last days stuff is all a hoax.” That is actually irrelevant to what is really important, type of apologetic / biblical view generates an incredible about of income and has long-term revenue for a niche market. When one looks at anything that is practical and pragmatic this is the single most important aspect and it always should be. The rest has no real meaning and is just handwaving.

  57. Scott says:

    MLD, does the DNC hold any kind of interfaith service before their convention?

  58. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Holy crap Scott – are you telling me the Evangelical / GOP church service is an Interfaith affair?
    The Christian church is opening it’s pulpit to Christ denying people? OMG, this is even worse than I feared.

  59. Dan from Georgia says:

    Turkey military coup has been foiled.

    Time to amend those End Times Prophecy (TM) charts again…

  60. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “here really isn’t any need on my part to argue the case for the Church being taken out before the wrath of God is poured out on this place, as described in the last book”

    Help me – point me to where it gives a hint of the removal of the church in “the last book.”

  61. Erunner says:

    “Some 104 plotters were killed after a coup attempt to bring down the Turkish government, while 160 people – at least 41 of them police and 47 civilians – fell as ‘martyrs’.”

  62. Scott says:

    “Holy crap Scott”…

    MLD, you’re a real work of art LOL.

  63. Michael says:

    “But the anger, anxiety and insecurity many contemporary white evangelicals feel are better understood as a response to an internal identity crisis precipitated by the recent demise of “white Christian America,” the cultural and institutional world built primarily by white Protestants that dominated American culture until the last decade.

    Today, white evangelicals are not only experiencing the shrinking of their own ranks, but they are also confronting larger, genuinely new demographic and cultural realities. When Barack Obama was elected president in 2008, white Christians (Catholics and Protestants) constituted a majority (54 percent) of the country; today, that number has slipped to 45 percent. Over this same period, support for gay marriage — a key issue for evangelicals — moved from only four in 10 to solid majority territory, and the Supreme Court cleared the way for gay and lesbian couples to marry in all 50 states. The Supreme Court itself symbolized these changes, losing its last remaining Protestant justice, John Paul Stevens, in 2010.

    A recent Public Religion Research Institute-Brookings survey shows the alarm that white evangelical Protestants are feeling in the wake of demographic and cultural changes. Nearly two-thirds are bothered when they encounter immigrants who speak little English. More than two-thirds believe that discrimination against whites has become as big a problem as discrimination against other groups. For discrimination against Christians, that number is nearly eight in 10. And perhaps most telling of all, seven in 10 white evangelical Protestants say the country has changed for the worse since the 1950s.

    By most measures, Ted Cruz, the son of an evangelical pastor and himself a Southern Baptist, should have been the evangelicals’ presidential candidate in 2016. But Mr. Trump won evangelicals over by explicitly addressing their deeper sense of loss. Mr. Cruz assured evangelicals that he’d secure them exemptions from the new realities, while Mr. Trump promised to reinstate their central place in the country. Mr. Cruz offered to negotiate a respectable retreat strategy, while Mr. Trump vowed to turn back the clock.

    For white evangelical Protestants, Mr. Trump’s general vow to “make America great again” means something specific. Mr. Trump stepped into the spotlight just as the curtain was coming down on the era of white Protestant dominance.

    Mr. Trump’s ascendancy has turned the 2016 election into a referendum on the death of white Christian America, with the candidate appealing strongly to those who are most grieving this loss. Mr. Trump instinctively understood this from the beginning of his campaign. Take his speech at an evangelical college before the Iowa caucuses in January: “I’ll tell you one thing: I get elected president, we’re going to be saying ‘Merry Christmas’ again.” He added that Christianity will be resurgent “because if I’m there, you’re going to have plenty of power — you don’t need anybody else.”

    If, however, white evangelicals somehow summon a response that is rooted in real acceptance of their decentered place in a new America, they may find that they have a critical role to play in the revitalization of our civic life.”

  64. Michael says:

    That was from the author of the book I’m reading and the podcast I linked to.

    The most significant thing all his numbers show is that we have (so far) lost the young people in this country.

    Barring some sort of revival or renewal we will become more and more of a minority as each year passes.

    The scary part of all this is that all these researchers admit the some form of Christian based thought has been the glue that held everything together for the history of this country…and there is nothing in place to replace that glue, once removed.

  65. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Holy crap Scott”…
    It got you attention 😉

    So what do you (or anyone here) think of Interfaith services. I think they are something a Christian should avoid to not give the appearance that people have a choice in the “variety of gods.”

    You know “I, I am Abdulah a GOP Iman from Indiana – please pray with me for Donald Trump – Oh great Allah…”

    Nasty stuff going on in that kind of a gathering.

  66. Michael says:

    The older I get,the more I think interfaith services are worshipping Baal.
    However, I’ve been cranky lately…

  67. Xenia says:

    Some bittersweet news from my world…

    My beloved teacher, Fr. Irenei, whom Nonnie met in Oxford, was just elevated to bishop.

    This is terrific news for American Orthodoxy. Fr. Irenei is young, brilliant, compassionate, and has a heart for education and evangelism which is exactly what is needed. He is more interested in being a Christian than being ethnically Russian or Greek. (He is neither. He’s an American.) He keeps strictly to the Orthodox Tradition yet never confuses the letter of the law with the spirit of the law. So this is great news for American Orthodoxy, especially on the west coast. Axios!!!

    For me, the bittersweet aspect is that I will probably never have any more long cozy theological conversations with him in his office on rainy San Francisco afternoons. I knew he would make bishop one day but I was hoping I had a few more years.

    Ah well. Axios!

  68. Michael says:


    What does evangelism look like in Orthodoxy?

  69. Xenia says:

    I never pray in an interfaith group unless I can say “AMEN” at the end of the prayers. That turns out to be quite limiting.

  70. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia – I think that is my point – how can you amen anything prayed to a false God … even if it was something you have been praying for yourself in your own life? it is still prayed to a false god (which we know is really just prayed to empty air.)

  71. Xenia says:

    Michael, it could include everything from street preaching to opening bookshops and coffee shops, to starting mission churches. Ancient Faith Radio is a great evangelistic outreach, if you can get people to tune in. In ancient days, evangelism was a priority but not so much in the US where the ethnic groups formed their own parishes and have not been terribly welcoming to outsiders in the past. Happily, this is changing for the better. Some credit the change to the influx of converts over the past few decades from protestantism, bringing with them their enthusiasm to reach the lost for Christ.

  72. Kevin H says:


    I am curious as to your take on what is happening in Russia in regards to the legislation that apparently will make it illegal to evangelize outside of church and reportedly has the support of the Russian Orthodox Church. That is my understanding of the situation, anyway. I know I can get a much more educated opinion on it from you than many others.

  73. Owen says:

    Michael – I’m going to take a quote out of your #64….

    “He added that Christianity will be resurgent “because if I’m there, you’re going to have plenty of power – you won’t need anybody else” ”

    I must admit that, that scares the crap out of me. This probably wasn’t Trump’s context, but that almost sounds like he’s implying that Christianity won’t need Christ anymore, Trump will supply all the power we need. (Since when did Christianity lust for more power, anyway?)

    I’m reminded of the serpent named Kaa in The Jungle Book, who was hypnotizing Mowgli while singing “Trust in me, just in me. Shut your eyes and trust in me….”

  74. Michael says:


    Well said.
    In my opinion we’ve been acting like we didn’t need Christ for a very long time…

  75. Owen says:

    MLD – I don’t have the stomach for interfaith services. Call me judgemental, but I don’t think Christ is present. I believe in freedom of religion, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good thing to mix them all together for the sake of “tolerance”.

  76. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Owen – I agree with you.

  77. Xenia says:

    Kevin, I have mixed feelings. In my heart of hearts, I only want Orthodoxy to be preached in Russia. But I don’t like totalitarianism, either. So I want Orthodoxy to prevail but at what cost? Personal freedom is of the uttermost importance to Americans. It’s our idol, in fact. We find it hard to understand that American-style freedom is not the preference of other cultures. But again, totalitarianism, which is where this could lead, is not something I could support. If all the Orthodox in Russia, or all the people who claim to be Orthodox, would start going to Church and stop having abortions they would not have to worry about other groups proselytizing because pure Orthodoxy is extremely attractive.

  78. Xenia says:

    Also, the Russian Church considers most evangelical groups to be cults.

  79. Xenia says:

    Not the Lutherans, though.

  80. Em ... again says:

    #61-since i am not a teacher and have no lesson planned laid out to cover the subject from A to Z, i will “help” you by asking a question… will there ever be a time here on earth when the prayers of Church are not heard?

    Rev 15:5-8
    “After this I looked, and the sanctuary of the tent[fn] of witness in heaven was opened,
    and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues, clothed in pure, bright linen, with golden sashes around their chests.
    And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever,
    and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.”
    that’s my hint, since you asked… i read these verses to say that, for a period of time yet to come, folks on earth aren’t heard at the Throne of God … i ask the question knowing that the excerpt will have a scholarly and convoluted (IMV) teaching that explains it all away
    you asked for one hint … the whole subject is not mine to teach

  81. Owen says:

    Xenia – I am happy to be excluded from cult status! 😉

    I have to admit, I have not learned much at all about Orthodoxy, I should do some reading….now I am curious.

  82. Michael says:

    The answer to #61 is Rev 7

    “After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

    Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
    (Revelation 7:9–14 ESV)

  83. Scott says:

    Holy crap, my question about DNC interfaith services was a rhetorical response to the obvious snipe about an evangelical service being planned at the RNC 😉

    The answer is yes there have been interfaith services held at the DNC. Yes, most democrats I know do have some really strange gods that I could never agree in prayer with.

  84. Em ... again says:

    #83-then, one concludes that the “Great Tribulation” includes the Church…?
    but, if one does NOT interpret “great tribulation” (which most of the Church has been subjected to – not us) as the period of time when those vials/bowls of the wrath of God as described are poured out on the earth then one begins the case for the Church’s removal…
    terms are such snags 🙂
    another item of note: beginning in chapter 14 three angels seem to take over the job of witnessing as they preach, announce and warn the earth…
    all i can declare is that a case, a solid one, can be made for the Church’s removal at a point in time and there is a solid basis for arguing that the Church does not experience God’s wrath at the end –
    what is described then hits the whole planet hard and there is no hiding place that i’ve seen described… the flee advice in Matthew was for that time, i think, not a run to Petra, but i’m only a very shallow student of this – not a teacher
    so… keep looking up … for a lot of reasons, eh?

  85. Em ... again says:

    let me reword something…”the flee advice in Matthew was for the time in which it was written and to the people to whom it was spoken, i think, it was not a hint to run to Petra”

    i’ve proved myself not a teacher – again

  86. Michael says:


    Based on the chronology of Matt 24 and Revelation 6 I believe the church will first see the coming of Anti-Christ and be in the great tribulation.
    To the best of my current understanding that means we go through the seals,but are removed before the trumpet and bowl judgments.

    On the other hand, the book of Revelation might not be a literal,linear, chronology at which point we’re left with the one given in Matthew 24, which is much easier to understand.

  87. Michael says:

    The problem with any breeding of faith and politics is that it always produces a mutant of both…

  88. Michael says:

    I love Dallas’s idea of autobiography through books… think I’ll steal it. 🙂

  89. Em ... again says:

    Michael, i get baited by MLD every now and then and i didn’t want to drive the thread into Rapture’s never-never land…
    i agree with your #87 because it DOES make sense… long years ago with nothing to do (late 90s) having spent some time spent writing computer software (accounting) and teaching it, too (late 70s)… i decided to see how the book of Revelation would flowchart… would it? or would one find that there was no flow, would i hit snags, puzzles and dead ends that only deep Biblical scholars with great intelligence and Biblical frames of reference could unravel…
    taking my very basic understanding of flowcharting computer programs (no systems programmer should be allowed to put software into service that doesn’t have a flowchart IMHO – but they do) i began (prayerfully) at chapter six and found no problems whatsoever – the book flows logically and, i confess, it amazed me a bit that it did so… i made no attempt to interpret, only to record… yes, you can identify a process, a parenthetical, or an event without interpreting same
    now i don’t know how the plan of God will play out, i think we search the scriptures and i believe that we’d better not do so with an agenda of our own or any other person’s construct… i’m just saying that the logic is there – human or Divine? that i don’t know

  90. Kevin H says:


    Thanks for answering.

    It would seem that, unless the law is unequally applied which I imagine may be a distinct possibility of happening, that even the Orthodox would be restricted from any evangelism. Be it as you described above, street preaching or book shops or coffee shops or whatever other forms of evangelism that would be used in Russia. I understand that the Orthodox don’t want other forms of Christianity from spreading (that they may not even consider to be real Christianity), but it would seem to also restrict their own ability to share the gospel. I can’t see how any church would ever want that to be the case. Unless again, the law is going to be unequally applied.

  91. Michael says:

    I don’t know what order these would be in…

    1. Comic books. Captain America and Batman taught me core values and instilled my sense of justice.

    2. Cages of Pain by Gordon Aeschliman…where I leaned I wasn’t the only person the church chewed up and spit out.

    3. If God Is In Charge by Steve Brown…almost as important as the comic books…my theology is almost wholly in there.

    4. Knowing God, by J.I. Packer…no explanation necessary.

    5. Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer… taught me that total depravity is a reality.

    6. Juarez: the Laboratory of Our Future by Charles Bowden. Most important book for the last chapter of my life…turned everything I thought I knew upside down.

    7. Down by the River by Bowden…his magnum opus on Mexico and drugs. Great book,but it took seven years to write and basically left him broke and broken…taught me what it costs to be a real reporter.

    8. The book of Isaiah…God’s magnum opus,in my opinion.

    9. Hellfire, by Nick Toches… Jerry Lee Lewis bio where the writing style was so intense that it
    seemed biblical.

    10. Calvin’s Institutes…

  92. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Flow charts are the heart and soul of the rapture crowd. Yet there is zero teaching of a rapture in scripture. Not one.
    Yet it consumes charts.

  93. Xenia says:

    Kevin, I think the idea is that *only* the Orthodox would be allowed to evangelize. I think that’s what “no evangelizing outside the Orthodox Church” probably means. They are not talking about buildings, I don’t think. I could be wrong.

  94. Em ... again says:

    MLD – charts galore yes… it was frustration with all the cute pictures and colors attempting to illustrate, for the pew sitter, in bars and pictures and timelines that prompted me to flow chart in the first place…
    do you understand what exactly a flowchart as applied to a system really is? they’re not a diagram telling you who in the company reports to who nor are they very dramatic to the casual observer – nothing like what i suspect you are thinking of, those illustrations that appear in books and pamphlets on “end times”

  95. Em ... again says:

    #92-a biography by book choices is an interesting approach, i wasn’t sure what Michael meant at first… if you saw my shelves of books that i’ve hung onto over the decades, you’d come to the conclusion that i must be nuts 🙂

  96. Owen says:

    I’ve never actually thought of Revelation in terms of a timeline. Given the fact that it was in a vision that John was given these things, it would seem out of place (at least to me) to try to apply too much linear logic to it. But I suspect our human nature has a bent towards figuring things out.

  97. Owen says:

    Em… well-read does not equal “nuts”. 🙂

  98. Kevin H says:

    Thanks, Xenia. If the law is that no evangelizing outside the church, with church meaning the Orthodox Church and not church buildings, then that would make more sense. Either way I certainly don’t like the law, but I understand it a little but better now.

  99. Jean says:

    Now that the coup was overthrown, can we move the rapture date back out?
    I’m working on a bucket list.

  100. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, Revelation, at least 6-19 is just a continual retelling of the creation to the end and told over several times. The book is not linear but is in fact cyclical as a spiral.
    It is called recapitulation. The bowls, the trumpets, the seals are all the same judgment just told from a different vantage points – with the intensity developed a little more each time.

    Very similar to an instant replay for a football game. You see the same play from different angles and see something you did not see from the previous replay angle.

    Linear and literal is what Scofield did.

  101. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    How many different angels can you see the same play and each looks very different than the other.
    1.) The sideline view (most common)
    2.) the view from behind the linebackers looking directly in at the QB
    3.) The view from behind the running back looking directly at the linebackers
    4.) The view from the press box
    5.) The view from the blimp
    6.) Those views that isolate a player

    And when there is a challenge to a play, they look at all the views to see what was missed. How many times do you watch the play and then a replay and cannot figure out why the guy won’t get up – until they find the replay that shows the direct cut back block or the real shot to the guys head.

    This is what is happening in Rev

    A must read

  102. Erunner says:

    Jean, hundreds of people are dead. Let’s not lose sight of that.

  103. Dallas says:

    MLD, from way back at the top,

    Thanks, there are so many books that I could put in that list, and a fair few of them would make me seem smarter than I am, and almost as pretentious as I can sometimes be.

    A friend’s daughter will be turning (I want to say) 9 in a couple months, and I remember starting her on her way with the first three Harry Potter books for her last birthday. I was impressed, she finished the series months ago. It’s actually a really good intro for a love of reading.

    I knew there was a really good chance it would come off as just a list of favorite books, but I was hoping to convey at least a little bit of my story there.

    Michael, I thought it was a very good thought exercise, at least. I considered throwing in a couple comic books, but held back. Near the genre would actually be a comic strip, as Calvin and Hobbes has been extremely important to me from just a value of imagination. As far as super hero comics go though, I really feel like they prepared me to engage scripture as the large sweeping story that it is. There is so much context that needs to be taken into account for you to fully appreciate many comic books that it is actually a great primer for the Bible.

  104. Em ... again says:

    well, a systems flowchart is not a timeline either … FWIW …
    i am not in anybody’s definition, skilled in this discipline, but let me try to explain what i did since the process seems to be so unclear… Lord, help me

    first of all i prayed – every day as it took me a week or so – my concern, an overriding concern was that i could let my interpretations/expectations creep in

    the first 5 chapters did not need a flow chart, only a notation
    chapter 6 begins a recitation of the opening of the seals – processes
    chapter 7 interrupts to record an event and then the 7th seal is described and then the events that follow … and so on through chapter 20 vs.4 – the controversial thousand years
    when finished, i confess to a bit of amazement at how clearly it flowed, following a pattern with no contortions or “what the heck do i do with this verse?” moments
    now, if one wants to cut and paste all these events and processes into an interpretation that gives them what they think is correct interpretations of theological doctrines, have at it – i am not a theologian or a teacher of same…

    i did not attempt to prove doctrines or examine the mind of God – it was just the use of a tool to map the progress of the narrative in a detached and literal observation – perhaps God will raise up an educated, skilled person to do a professional flowchart and give some credence to this wonder – perhaps not – the danger lies in resisting interpretations

  105. Em ... again says:

    #101-MLD, you want to argue interpretations, find someone else to do that with you – as i said, if you want to cut and paste the narrative to conform to doctrine, go ahead – that has nothing to do with a flowchart of the narrative .

    my point was that i found it a bit amazing, considering all the hoopla swirling about the book sounding so very esoteric, is that the narrative flows perfectly with no dead ends and no tricks to boggle one’s mind

  106. Em, I wasn’t arguing your flow chart. I am still waiting to hear some scripture that says there is a rapture.
    Your whole point earlier was that the church gets raptured out before the wrath of God comes. I just asked to have someone show me those verses and to show me in “the last book” where that happens.

    Many dispies in general and C in particular used to say that it happened at.Rev 4:1 – but you don’t hear that much any longer.

    I have been asking for 10 years and no one answers. The most common is they suggest resurrection of the dead verses and label them the rapture.

    And yes I do “argue” interpretations. 😉

  107. j2theperson says:

    I know this is taking the thread way back up to the top, but…I’m surprised to hear anyone voicing a belief that society is drawing close to calling for a strong world leader. The EU has been barely holding itself together for a while, and now Brexit just happened. Trump is doing very well in the polls by voicing a cry for nationalism. Many countries have rising cries of nationalism. Many people in many different countries are fed up with immigration. I don’t see this as a landscape that would give rise to a one world government.

  108. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    This is all a part of the dispensational hoax – again they have hoaxed each other into believing that there has been this long time call for a one world government and each news cycle points to more people making that call. They are the only ones who believe this.

    Where is Nicolae Carpathia when we need him? Doesn’t he hear the call? 😉

  109. Scott says:

    j2theperson, that’s a very perceptive observation.

    I still think it is INSANE that our leaders (including Obama) are allowing & encouraging immigrants to flow into our homeland without adequate vetting.

    In light of an enemy that has vowed to do us harm in any way they can, it’s just beyond comprehension they are doing this.

  110. Michael says:

    What is adequate vetting?
    This is the process, which takes 12-18 months.

    This is the prices for refugees,which is different from the immigration process.

    The Middle Eastern people are refugees,not immigrants.

  111. Em ... again says:

    #61-“Help me – point me to where it gives a hint of the removal of the church in “the last book.””

    #81-Rev 15:5-8
    “After this I looked, and the sanctuary of the tent[fn] of witness in heaven was opened,
    and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues, clothed in pure, bright linen, with golden sashes around their chests.
    And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever,
    and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.”
    that’s my hint, since you asked…

    #107-” I just asked to have someone show me those verses and to show me in “the last book” where that happens.”

    Rev 15:5-8
    “After this…..
    And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever,
    and the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.”
    that’s my hint, since you asked… but i repeat myself 🙂

    (and your responses to the subject of flowcharts told me that you didn’t know what one was… so i took the time to help you understand them… obviously wasted time for both of us and a waste of Michael’s blog, also … my apologies to all)

  112. Em ... again says:

    i had an interesting conversation a short time ago… someone thinks that our Latinos are going to go with Trump and they made a very good case for why…

    as to a world leader in the near future… i think Scripture is pretty clear that the leader – or leadership – will control the Western Hemisphere and therefore perhaps international commerce?
    is there a cry for globalism? i think there is, but it isn’t among the common folk, it is needed to keep the wealth and power flowing to those who now have it… the New World Order call goes all the way back to H. W. Bush… whether we like it or not, as much as we would like to think democracy counts every man, we, the average man, are really just observers to this and we always have been – starting soon after Noah landed high and dry, i think – dunno

  113. Scott says:

    A link from the White House, I feel so much better now. 😉

    Oh yeah, I’m sure there’s a massive Syrian database to pull from.

  114. Jean says:

    “is there a cry for globalism? i think there is, but it isn’t among the common folk,”

    Where do you think all the cheap Wal-Mart stuff comes from?

  115. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    and where is the Church in this scene?

  116. Muff Potter says:

    “Linear and literal is what Scofield did.”

    Agreed MLD. Hal Lindsey, Papa Chuck, Chuck Missler, the list is long, all carried the banner and torch from there. Prior to Scofield and his theological progeny, the old mainlines (Catholicism, Lutheranism, etc.) viewed it as wild speculation and never entertained it in any serious fashion. I am now of the opinion that there is much in Scripture that defies linearization.

  117. CostcoCal says:

    J2….nice call. Now that you say that, I agree.

  118. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    This is a list and description of the 7 cycles in Revelation – hmmm catch that … 7?
    1.) 7 seals 6:1- 8:1
    2.) 7 Trumpets 8:2-11:19
    3.) 7 Symbolic Histories 12:1-14:20
    4.) 7 Bowls 15:1 – 16:21
    5.) Judgment of Babylon includes 7 messages 17:1 – 19:10
    6.) Judgment by the rider of the white horse 19:11-21
    7.) Judgment from the White Throne 20:1- 21:8

    Each of these cycles are describing the same judgment – the final judgment – the day of the lord kind of stuff etc

    This is not a series of bad things delivered by God trying to get the people to say “uncle”.

  119. London says:

    As an IT person, I totally get your flowchart way of thinking. If it works for you, then go for it and don’t let anyone tell you it’s wrong just cause it isn’t the way they would do it.
    If it’s something that blessed you, then cool!

  120. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    No one told Em not to use flow charts. I just made the comment that charts were the heart and soul of rapture theology.

  121. Michael says:

    Facebook has set a new standard for insanity tonight…

  122. Babylon's Dread says:


  123. Michael says:

    Just through the insane, raging, posts and comments… people are starting to scare me.

    I was going to PM you…if you don’t buy the book I mentioned up top, I’m going to call you every day and read a portion to you…must read.

  124. Babylon's Dread says:

    End of White guy’s America?

    Just got it

  125. Michael says:

    I expect a book report… 🙂

    Seriously, it explains a great deal with clarity in my opinion and I’ll be interested in your take.

  126. Scott says:

    I just checked my FB page, recent postings tonight included a talking dog video, a cat eating marijuana leafs, a 12 year old kid on a tractor, a former truck driver student of mine in a photo with his dad, a funny Trump meme, so on and so forth. No raging, insane posts or comments. You might need to get some new FB friends 😉

  127. bob1 says:


    Never allow facts to get in the way of your ideology.

    I can see it now — Scott will soon (if he hasn’t already) morph from Obama Derangement Syndrome to Hillary Clinton Derangement System.

    Watch for it soon.

  128. Ixtlan says:

    Perhaps. The pendulum of public opinion swings so wildly and rapidly these days. The one, overwhelming call for international unity could be heard in the heralds for increased personal security and safety.

    And just so you know, I’m not dispensational.

  129. bob1 says:


    The pendulum of public opinion swings so wildly and rapidly these days

    Not true.

    Only 4% of voters are truly independent and nonideological with reference to the 2016 Presidential Election.

  130. Em ... again says:

    #120-thanks for the encouraging word, London 🙂 interpretation was not the point of the flowcharting exercise

    the book is very logical and its progress can be mapped without any editing … for me that was amazing as we have so many views of what is being said

    i don’t really care if MLD’s interpretation stacks the events in the book – i suspect that, having taught the book, he feels a need to make clear his interpretation, no matter what he piggybacks it on
    and i have no problem with folk who are sure the Church will go out any day now

    my late husband, who leaned toward a pre-wrath view said that prophesy is clear for those who are there when it is fulfilled – i’ll go with that

  131. Em ... again says:

    #115- Jean, that is international trade and brings up the subject of the exploitation of cheap labor, but it is not “globalism”

    according to Google (didn’t look further(
    “Definition of globalism. : a national policy of treating the whole world as a proper sphere for political influence — compare imperialism, internationalism.”

    just sayin … again … think i’m say’d out now

  132. Scott says:

    bob1, as far as facts go regarding Hillary Clinton, it was already made abundantly clear by the FBI Director a couple of weeks ago before the whole nation, she’s about as big of a scumbag politician as it gets, don’t you think?

    Other than that, bless you bob1, I hope you have a wonderful Sunday worshipping the Lord!

  133. Jean says:

    Em #132,

    While international trade is not the same thing as globalism, they are interrelated, so that you cannot have significant international trade without a degree of globalism.

    For the protection of our workers, for the safety of our citizens, and for the sustainability of the planet’s food sources (such as fisheries), we cannot engage in international trade with countries who knowingly: use child or prison labor or indentured servitude; do not pay overtime and other unfair or unsafe labor practices; engage in bribery, use harmful chemicals, herbicides or supplements in food production; do not honestly label products; steal our intellectual property; invade other countries and violate basic human rights; etc.

    All of these issues have a political dimension. In fact counties, including the U.S. have a long history of using trade as a tool of political influence. It would be a disaster for the U.S., its people, and for the world if the U.S. tried to divorce trade from political influence.

  134. London says:

    Did you follow my sage advice from the other day and hide the type of posts that you do not wish to see, like and share the ones you do?
    Don’t click on items that are raging and insane, and you will not see them any more. FB is in the “people pleasing” game with their algorithm of what you see.
    They show you what they think you want to see. If you keep interacting with posts by liking, commenting, sharing, then the program assumes you want to see more of those types of items.
    If you don’t, then make it clear by hiding them.

    I’ve been doing that intentionally for the last two weeks or so. Suddenly, my FB world is full of a lot less “insanity” and I didn’t have to unfriend a single person to make it so.

    Basically, we all get the FB experience we choose to have.

  135. Em ... again says:

    stopping by for one reason here this Sunday morning – i want to be on record as one who thinks that Obama and Hillary have blood on their hands that won’t wash off … if you can’t see what’s been going on – i pray for you today

    be kind to our folk who are not the same color as yourself – unless, God be merciful, we’re looking at ambition combined with stupidity beyond reason, we are being played in a very evil way for some very nefarious reason… pray for those in authority over us, indeed – pray harder

  136. Em ... again says:

    Jean, if you knew me, you might be embarrassed at your #134, if you’re using me as a foil to lecture to the PhxP gathering… either way, it’s been done before here many times over the years – i’ve ignored most of it – sometimes the point being made is worth consideration and sometimes it isn’t – either way most days i don’t feel the need to respond … most days

  137. j2theperson says:

    I think it’s worth noting that globalism is not synonymous with a one world government and there’s nothing inherent in international trade that would lead to a one world leader. The EU has highlighted some of the issues that arise when you try to shoehorn separate countries with vastly different economies into one currency and one common market with uniform rules. Also all the cheap Asian swag we enjoy is possible because we’re trading with separate countries that have their own currency and their own different economies. A one world government would probably suck for trade and the reasonable exchange of goods between areas of very disparate wealth.

  138. Jean says:

    “we are being played in a very evil way for some very nefarious reason”

    I agree…you are.

  139. Michael says:


    I thought about it and the most insane (flat earth’s,etc) I’ve cut bait on.

    The rest are people who’re “real” everyday people…and I think it’s irresponsible of me to ignore the fact that they are being swallowed up by the rage culture and transformed into people that can’t be recognized anymore.

    There are people who post here…full of faith and wisdom…putting up memes suggesting violence against the government and upon those who hold differing political views.

    There are people of faith damning others to hell based on the rantings of extremist media.

    We have a problem…and while I’d like to throw a cyber blanket over it and be at peace I think we need to see what we are becoming before it’s too late.

  140. surfer51 says:

    Here is what my generation was in our youth.

    Perhaps Em and a few others will relate.

    It was the best of times ever!

  141. Em ... again says:

    i am a child of the 1940s – my children were schooled in the ’60s and ’70s, between was the baby boomer generation raised by moms on Miltown and shopping therapies – the good life was a shallow one – IMHO
    along with wavering clerics came the smart guys, the iconoclasts… walking backwards looking under rocks and behind history’s closed doors for evil somehow made them smarter and more righteous? they should have looked where they were going, where we are now
    such is the nature of this lost race…
    if i had it to do over, i think my children would get a dollar for every verse they memorized out of Proverbs 15

    God keep

  142. Muff Potter says:

    “Lots of blood on lots of hands…”

    Very much agreed Michael. Innocent non-combatants with no place to go fueled in large part by a stupid and senseless war on drugs. A war in which obscene profits are made possible and sustained to this day by what the Reagan administration set in motion years ago.

  143. Michael says:


    I could not possibly agree more.
    I could even expand on it, but people do not care about such things.

  144. Em ... again says:

    Muff and Michael, FWIW – what i think we must come to terms with is that this is what the world does and will do… while we chase one miscreant or political puppet, there’s always another to take advantage of the gap in our focus… if God can’t reform the world, i seriously doubt that we can, eh?

    when one sees a leader who is promoting what we believe in, we cheer them on… but what we see, as you’ve pointed out, is not necessarily what’s really goin’ on…

    i need a rest from the PhxP site, i guess as i am getting close to having no dog in the fight and old age is making me a little short on grace (isn’t it supposed to work the other way?)

  145. Em ... again says:

    had an aha moment sitting here alone this afternoon – it might be a good data point for some here to add to their frame of reference…
    my parents’ generation who fought WW2 really believed that they had conquered evil: Hitler, Mussolini, some guy named Tojo and all they stood for was gone! – from the Atlantic to the Pacific all that remained was to help the world recover and reform… it didn’t work out as expected… it has taken a long time to reorganize our thinking, to realize that we really aren’t smart enough to save the world… what do we do with that fact? dunno

  146. Michael says:

    On the other hand, we can be exceedingly thankful that those threats were met…

  147. Em ... again says:

    yes, Michael, we should be exceedingly thankful for how WW2 worked out… i think we are, but i think that it somehow gave us (the U.S.) the sense that we could go on from that victory and save the world … now it seems to me that we’ve done way too much meddling, kind of like going into the middle of a domestic dispute at your next door neighbor’s?

    as you sagely observe, tho … our mileage may vary 🙂

  148. Lutheran says:

    Since this is an open thread…

    I’ve been reading 2 books about spiritual warfare and demon possession. They’re both written by a Lutheran pastor. He went to Madagascar to work, I think, on his PhD. While there, he discovered that the Lutherans regularly cast evil spirits, etc. out of people. So

    The more recent book presents various scenarios he and other Lutheran pastors have faced. The earlier book is more focused on the Madagascar church and the theology behind exorcism.

    If you want a balanced and scriptural view of the topic, I commend these to you! You certainly don’t have to be Lutheran. The joyous message is that Jesus is Lord over sin, death, and the devil!

  149. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Good topic Lutheran

    Here are some interviews with Robert Bennett about the books he wrote and listed by Lutheran.

  150. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

  151. Scott says:

    Lutheran, interesting links.

    “The joyous message is that Jesus is Lord over sin, death, and the devil!”

    Thanks for sharing that!

  152. London says:

    I understand.
    For me personally, the best way to stop my own participation in creating more anger and rage was to stop participating in the online rage-a-thon by perpetuating positivity and stories of good.
    I think, for me, that to see more good, I have to share more good.
    I’m perfectly aware of what’s going on in the world, not burying my head in the sand. Just choosing not to partake in it any more.

  153. Em ... again says:

    my grandmother’s advice was that the devil was better left alone – don’t even think on it

    that said, for a number of years we lived in a neighborhood so hostile that i would not have believed it if i hadn’t lived it – when the family next door dinally sold, the new neighbor told me that she’d seen a whole bookshelf of books on spiritism, witchcraft and such in that house… hmmm… i have to wonder if i failed them

  154. surfer51 says:

    Derek Prince has had an enormous amount of experience with spiritual warfare and casting out of demons.

  155. surfer51 says:
  156. Babylon's Dread says:


    Thanks for adding to that discussion. We have been involved in those ministries with serious Biblical basis and field practice as long as I can remember.

  157. Lutheran says:


    What’s also cool is that Craig Keener at Asbury Seminary strongly endorsed both books. He’s the guy who not too long ago, published a massive 2-volume set on miracles in the Church, starting at the beginning.

    Have you heard of Keener’s book or read it? I’d love to get it but it’s a bit expensive.

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