An important article in the Oct 2018 issue of First Things that should be read by all. It throws up the warning once again about the dangers being created by a Christianity that fights to put getting along in a spirit of kumbaya over doctrine. A warning against a Christianity that capitulates to the culture to become relevant and yes a warning to a Christianity that veils it’s leaning to slogan ‘deeds not creeds’.
Those he speaks of are no longer Christians but are apostates and pagans clothed in vestments.
I think these are important issues to try and parse.
I’m not prepared to say that because someone is wrong about matters of sexuality that they are thus damned…but it concerns me deeply that both sides of the issue tend to think so.
It’s particularly concerning because I will be church planting in the not too distant future.
We will not perform or recognize same sex marriages…period.
I just will not allow that debate to be the center of our attention.
We’re going be a traditional, Anglican church, doing traditional, Anglican work…and let this rage around us while we minister to the people of God.
Michael, please understand that this is not about sexuality, but is indeed about how the church got in this position. They got there the way I described.
One side stands firmly on doctrine, tradition and the confessions. The other side stands firmly on the direction of the social winds.
I don’t think that is necessarily true.
Sometimes traditions need reexamined.
In any case, I think that this current wind is blowing destruction into the church and the society.
My job is to stay the course until the storms over…
Michael, how funny you should take that position. It is the orthodox, tradition driven confessional churches that are causing the storm by saying “No! You are wrong – you are following the ways of man, not God.”
If the church didn’t stand up, these apostates would think their position to me the norm.
Michael, let’s get a bit concrete. So you plant your church and 1 year later some folkscome to you and suggest in order to be friendly and accomadating to the surrounding churches and community they think your church should join in on a joint LBGTQ service / celebration the 3rd Sunday in October. They suggest that they have seen other Anglicans participate and it would be a great time to get to know those in the “community” and for them to know us and what be believe, teach and confess.
I assume your answer would be no but I would like to hear the reasoning for the no.
I already made my position clear.
Recapturing the spirit of the Inquisition isn’t going to change anything.
I’m not participating in an LGBTQ service or a Franklin Graham event.
I hope that you understand that in the case of the LCMS and other confessional Lutheran groups the objective is not to save the ELCA (too late for that) but to inform those trapped in such a system and offer a path of escape.
This cannot be done passively.
That assumes some things.
It assumes that they haven’t already heard and rejected the doctrines you hold.
It assumes that if they knew better, they would want to escape.
I’m not convinced of either.
There’s nothing passive about proclaiming the Gospel and holding to tradition…unless you’re going to storm these churches physically and hold them at tract point until they repent…
Here’s what I don’t understand about MLD’s position. He makes the claim that no one chooses to follow Christ, that it is done unto them. Christ does it all, 100 percent, which I assume involves choosing on His part. I know, from listening to Calvinists, that the Word of God (Scriptures, I am assuming), upon being proclaimed, which grab some (with Christ doing all the grabbing) and not grabbing others (again, with Christ making the choice not to grab them.) If this is the case, wouldn’t all those “not grabbed” be left to their own sorry devices in these apostate churches? I mean if Christ has decided not to save them, what can you do about it? Why all the hang-wringing if it’s 100 percent up to God who gets saved and who gets abandoned?
Halfway through Florence…thanking God for only Category 1 winds but we are still experiencing rainfall expected to go over 30″ and insane storm surge as the back end of the storm passes through.
As a former card carrying Calvinist I will tell you that our answer was that God uses means…and the means He mainly uses is the proclamation of the Gospel through human agents.
MLD being a Lutheran, I’m not sure what his take would be…
Xenia – ” Why all the hang-wringing if itās 100 percent up to God who gets saved and who gets abandoned?”
This is your error. (plus the fact that Lutherans are far from Calvinists — even on election.) I never said we understand how it works – just that it does.
“He makes the claim that no one chooses to follow Christ, that it is done unto them.” Well, in my Bible in a couple of places it says āNone is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD.” I can live with that. – Now to the “that it is done unto them” part – yes, that is what the word of God does – it converts people. Why some and not others – we don’t know.
As to those left in the apostate church, we do believe that even the saved can be deceived and are worth “re-saving”
Michael, I know “means” is the Calvinist answer but I am going to tell you that it doesn’t make any sense to me whatsoever. I believe God does use means but I believe in free will so it makes sense. I have never been able to reconcile it with any type of predestination or whatever the Lutherans call it. He either grabs you or He doesn’t. “Means” seem completely irrelevant for those who deny free will.
Your baking cookies story doesn’t work. You are baking cookies AFTER you have claimed them as your grandchildren … unless you are claiming they became your grandchildren by baking cookies with you.
By what act of their will did they become your grandchildren?
But what about the biblical claim that no one seeks after God? How does the synergist break through?
Write books, write pamphlets, put your moral theology out there without rancor. Simply declare truth. The culture has become the lord of many churches. The article you posted is shivering but it is the full orthodoxy of the public square. In fact let’s tell our patriotic friends that the ELCA now represents the ‘way of life’ for which our soldiers are being sent to die. All the rules have changed. The old style prophets about Romans 1 who are roundly shamed for their intolerance will be vindicated but not until they are eliminated.
Ok that is me using hyperbole to make a point. The point is … we are far more co-opted and compromised than we even know.
Just read a book review and i have to dump my dismay somewhere….. “Pure” by one Linda Kay Klein who claims to be a serious evangelical … It seems, according to her, having occasion, sincere s*x with assorted partners has nothing to do purity…. She overcame her “true love waits” upbringing at Sarah Lawrence….
snark alert
I just finished going over the house chasing cat hair – even pulled the frig out…. Right now i’d enjoy killing a cat… by Klein logic, i guess it would be okay to do so…. then i can go look for a short haired tabby, eh? Eventually i’ll find the right one…
Serpent vomit is what I call the quotes from the ELCA — which by the way is remnant the womb of my original baptism… (LCA)
Re 12:15Ā The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16Ā But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17Ā Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
Baba, my praise for the article wasn’t in hope that some apostate in the ELCA would read it and come to their spiritual senses (probably too late for that) – but to show the value and necessity of standing up against those who think ecclesiastical peace (kumbaya) is of a higher order than proper doctrine.
We seem to see it more and more in American churches – well, culture is strong and doctrine is narrow minded blah, blah, blah.
A local ELCA pastor told me the local church is not an RIC church and will not divide the church over SSM. He then when on to say that the church is pro-marriage and recognizes the benefits and gifts of marriage does not exclude SSM. After some thought, I am confused by this. It sounds like double-speak. If there are benefits in SSM, why not be RIC church. Oy….
One cannot help but recognize the connection between the ELCA and the free will. Both employ a theology which attempts to keep the old Adam alive. The ELCA accomplishes this by creating a new law that justifies the sin of its members. The free will folks accomplish this by giving the old Adam a spark of righteousness, which with the help of grace, can bridge the old Adam into the age to come. Both resist participation in the cross of Christ, which crucifies the old Adam and raises (births) the new man in Christ.
I would rather trust in the promise of the Gospel, that God chose me in Baptism, forgives my sins and promises me eternal life in Christ, than in my free will to chose and follow him.
The doctrine of Christ alone is offensive because God appears to be arbitrary. Why Joe and not Sally? It can’t be God’s election, so it must be Sally’s fault. Or perhaps Joe was endowed with something Sally never got (perhaps she’s smarter or more wise and discerning)? But in any event, we want justify God, otherwise what kind of God is he?.
Anon, that was not your original question. You had asked what I would say to halo someone make a decision for Christ – to which I pretty much said I don’t think someone can make ‘a decision for Christ”.
Now you ask what do I say to tell someone about becoming. Christian – to which I would say that I tell them the decision Jesus made for them to save them. I tell them about the perfect life Jesus lived to fulfill the demands of the law and of his perfect death and resurrection.
I do not tell them to walk an aisle for an altar call (in my tribe we call that the Lord’s Supper). I do not tell them to pray the sinner’s prayer, nor do I tell them to give Jesus a try and see if he doesn’t work for you too.
It’s all yours today…
An important article in the Oct 2018 issue of First Things that should be read by all. It throws up the warning once again about the dangers being created by a Christianity that fights to put getting along in a spirit of kumbaya over doctrine. A warning against a Christianity that capitulates to the culture to become relevant and yes a warning to a Christianity that veils it’s leaning to slogan ‘deeds not creeds’.
Those he speaks of are no longer Christians but are apostates and pagans clothed in vestments.
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2018/10/elca-hits-bottom
I think these are important issues to try and parse.
I’m not prepared to say that because someone is wrong about matters of sexuality that they are thus damned…but it concerns me deeply that both sides of the issue tend to think so.
It’s particularly concerning because I will be church planting in the not too distant future.
We will not perform or recognize same sex marriages…period.
I just will not allow that debate to be the center of our attention.
We’re going be a traditional, Anglican church, doing traditional, Anglican work…and let this rage around us while we minister to the people of God.
Michael, please understand that this is not about sexuality, but is indeed about how the church got in this position. They got there the way I described.
One side stands firmly on doctrine, tradition and the confessions. The other side stands firmly on the direction of the social winds.
MLD,
I don’t think that is necessarily true.
Sometimes traditions need reexamined.
In any case, I think that this current wind is blowing destruction into the church and the society.
My job is to stay the course until the storms over…
Michael, how funny you should take that position. It is the orthodox, tradition driven confessional churches that are causing the storm by saying “No! You are wrong – you are following the ways of man, not God.”
If the church didn’t stand up, these apostates would think their position to me the norm.
MLD,
Their position is already the cultural norm and in market based religion it will eventually win out there.
I can’t change that…I can only be faithful.
Michael, let’s get a bit concrete. So you plant your church and 1 year later some folkscome to you and suggest in order to be friendly and accomadating to the surrounding churches and community they think your church should join in on a joint LBGTQ service / celebration the 3rd Sunday in October. They suggest that they have seen other Anglicans participate and it would be a great time to get to know those in the “community” and for them to know us and what be believe, teach and confess.
I assume your answer would be no but I would like to hear the reasoning for the no.
MLD,
I already made my position clear.
Recapturing the spirit of the Inquisition isn’t going to change anything.
I’m not participating in an LGBTQ service or a Franklin Graham event.
I hope that you understand that in the case of the LCMS and other confessional Lutheran groups the objective is not to save the ELCA (too late for that) but to inform those trapped in such a system and offer a path of escape.
This cannot be done passively.
That assumes some things.
It assumes that they haven’t already heard and rejected the doctrines you hold.
It assumes that if they knew better, they would want to escape.
I’m not convinced of either.
There’s nothing passive about proclaiming the Gospel and holding to tradition…unless you’re going to storm these churches physically and hold them at tract point until they repent…
Here’s what I don’t understand about MLD’s position. He makes the claim that no one chooses to follow Christ, that it is done unto them. Christ does it all, 100 percent, which I assume involves choosing on His part. I know, from listening to Calvinists, that the Word of God (Scriptures, I am assuming), upon being proclaimed, which grab some (with Christ doing all the grabbing) and not grabbing others (again, with Christ making the choice not to grab them.) If this is the case, wouldn’t all those “not grabbed” be left to their own sorry devices in these apostate churches? I mean if Christ has decided not to save them, what can you do about it? Why all the hang-wringing if it’s 100 percent up to God who gets saved and who gets abandoned?
Halfway through Florence…thanking God for only Category 1 winds but we are still experiencing rainfall expected to go over 30″ and insane storm surge as the back end of the storm passes through.
It’s only movibg at 6mph.
Xenia,
As a former card carrying Calvinist I will tell you that our answer was that God uses means…and the means He mainly uses is the proclamation of the Gospel through human agents.
MLD being a Lutheran, I’m not sure what his take would be…
Steven,
Praying for all those being drenched…hope you all come though the storm whole…
Xenia – ” Why all the hang-wringing if itās 100 percent up to God who gets saved and who gets abandoned?”
This is your error. (plus the fact that Lutherans are far from Calvinists — even on election.) I never said we understand how it works – just that it does.
“He makes the claim that no one chooses to follow Christ, that it is done unto them.” Well, in my Bible in a couple of places it says āNone is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD.” I can live with that. – Now to the “that it is done unto them” part – yes, that is what the word of God does – it converts people. Why some and not others – we don’t know.
As to those left in the apostate church, we do believe that even the saved can be deceived and are worth “re-saving”
Michael, I know “means” is the Calvinist answer but I am going to tell you that it doesn’t make any sense to me whatsoever. I believe God does use means but I believe in free will so it makes sense. I have never been able to reconcile it with any type of predestination or whatever the Lutherans call it. He either grabs you or He doesn’t. “Means” seem completely irrelevant for those who deny free will.
Xenia – “āMeansā seem completely irrelevant for those who deny free will.”
In baptism God claims the person as his – he says “mine!”
As I said yesterday, for a synergist conversion is an act of the will. To a Lutheran, conversion is an act upon the will.
Don’t make me bring out the “Xenia baking cookies with her grandchildren” story again….
Your baking cookies story doesn’t work. You are baking cookies AFTER you have claimed them as your grandchildren … unless you are claiming they became your grandchildren by baking cookies with you.
By what act of their will did they become your grandchildren?
But what about the biblical claim that no one seeks after God? How does the synergist break through?
A change of topic?
For anyone who does pray with people to make a decision to become a Christian, what does your prayer contain?
Anon,
Can’t help you with this one… š
MLD,
Write books, write pamphlets, put your moral theology out there without rancor. Simply declare truth. The culture has become the lord of many churches. The article you posted is shivering but it is the full orthodoxy of the public square. In fact let’s tell our patriotic friends that the ELCA now represents the ‘way of life’ for which our soldiers are being sent to die. All the rules have changed. The old style prophets about Romans 1 who are roundly shamed for their intolerance will be vindicated but not until they are eliminated.
Ok that is me using hyperbole to make a point. The point is … we are far more co-opted and compromised than we even know.
Just read a book review and i have to dump my dismay somewhere….. “Pure” by one Linda Kay Klein who claims to be a serious evangelical … It seems, according to her, having occasion, sincere s*x with assorted partners has nothing to do purity…. She overcame her “true love waits” upbringing at Sarah Lawrence….
snark alert
I just finished going over the house chasing cat hair – even pulled the frig out…. Right now i’d enjoy killing a cat… by Klein logic, i guess it would be okay to do so…. then i can go look for a short haired tabby, eh? Eventually i’ll find the right one…
Serpent vomit is what I call the quotes from the ELCA — which by the way is remnant the womb of my original baptism… (LCA)
Re 12:15Ā The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16Ā But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17Ā Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
We must remember that our Lord addressed the tempter, he simply said “IT IS WRITTEN.”
Anon,
Do you actually pray with a person that they accept Christ? I can’t imagine that prayer.
I would pray to God to convert the person through his word.
Baba, my praise for the article wasn’t in hope that some apostate in the ELCA would read it and come to their spiritual senses (probably too late for that) – but to show the value and necessity of standing up against those who think ecclesiastical peace (kumbaya) is of a higher order than proper doctrine.
We seem to see it more and more in American churches – well, culture is strong and doctrine is narrow minded blah, blah, blah.
There will be no peace on this issue but a sword.
Nothing but absolute submission will appease.
The babylonian whore is drinking blood
Babe, I am not looking for victory – just voices to call out error and false churches.
There is a reason that there is only a stairway to heaven and a highway to hell. š
A local ELCA pastor told me the local church is not an RIC church and will not divide the church over SSM. He then when on to say that the church is pro-marriage and recognizes the benefits and gifts of marriage does not exclude SSM. After some thought, I am confused by this. It sounds like double-speak. If there are benefits in SSM, why not be RIC church. Oy….
One cannot help but recognize the connection between the ELCA and the free will. Both employ a theology which attempts to keep the old Adam alive. The ELCA accomplishes this by creating a new law that justifies the sin of its members. The free will folks accomplish this by giving the old Adam a spark of righteousness, which with the help of grace, can bridge the old Adam into the age to come. Both resist participation in the cross of Christ, which crucifies the old Adam and raises (births) the new man in Christ.
I would rather trust in the promise of the Gospel, that God chose me in Baptism, forgives my sins and promises me eternal life in Christ, than in my free will to chose and follow him.
The doctrine of Christ alone is offensive because God appears to be arbitrary. Why Joe and not Sally? It can’t be God’s election, so it must be Sally’s fault. Or perhaps Joe was endowed with something Sally never got (perhaps she’s smarter or more wise and discerning)? But in any event, we want justify God, otherwise what kind of God is he?.
Ask yourself:
Why Abraham?
Why Moses?
Why Jacob?
Why Cyrus?
Why Matthew?
Why Saul of Tarsus?
Which one did he ask to make a choice?
Joel G – what is a RIC church?
RIC – Reconciling in Christ
https://www.reconcilingworks.org/resources/ric/
MLD,
So an immigrant fresh off the boat has a life crisis and over dinner asks how he can become a Christian-you tell him SOMETHING.
I am sticking with Michaelās recent quote:
The next move of God may be with LGBT folks.
From experience it may just be the LGB folks.
Anon, that was not your original question. You had asked what I would say to halo someone make a decision for Christ – to which I pretty much said I don’t think someone can make ‘a decision for Christ”.
Now you ask what do I say to tell someone about becoming. Christian – to which I would say that I tell them the decision Jesus made for them to save them. I tell them about the perfect life Jesus lived to fulfill the demands of the law and of his perfect death and resurrection.
I do not tell them to walk an aisle for an altar call (in my tribe we call that the Lord’s Supper). I do not tell them to pray the sinner’s prayer, nor do I tell them to give Jesus a try and see if he doesn’t work for you too.