CT is calling for the church(s) to make $$ financial reparations to black americans ?
I didnt know the CEO of CT had Apostolic Authority from God over all the evangelical churches in America.
What a great idea CT. Then set forth this example. And wire all cash funds available CT into BLM or similar. And make mandatory, that all CT employees to make a 10% reparation donation of there personal gross bank balance.
Let’s see how this works. And then I’ll pray about it.
E
I am in favor of reparations, but not in the form of cash payments, as I don’t think they would help in the long run. I am in favor of affirmative action reparations which secure opportunities for African American children in charter schools and prestigious institutions of higher education. Also, I support affirmative action in the public and private sectors, such as internships, jobs and advancement.
I am speaking as one who would not qualify for affirmative action, whether as a Vietnam vet, disable person, racial minority or female.
I do object to affirmative action for homosexuals and transgenders, because I don’t believe they are a protected class within God’s good creation.
So you’re in favor of the current system, with an add-on for private businesses, enforced by the state.
If I own a plumbing business with 10 plumbers on staff, how many need to be black? What should happen to me if I don’t meet the quota? May I promote the most qualified employees, or do I have an “advancement” quota as well?
Do me a favor and build a business from nothing and get back to me in 5 years to let me know how appropriate you feel it is to have bureaucrats who have never built anything telling you how to run your business.
Reparations are a great idea. In fact, the Egypt Christian churches including the Coptics. Need to pay reparations to all Israeli citizens of Jewish descent for the 400 years the Egyptians enslaved the Hebrews.
I would think a conversation on reparations would be enlightening & revealing. I think it would reveal long-held views of minorities and their historic hardships, mistreatment, and abuse that would curdle in the heat and light of the day. Reparations bring the latent out into the open–because there is wealth involved and all the emotions that go into the possession, earning, holding, giving, and sharing of wealth. It could be an amazing conversation or an absolute snark-fest full of bullying, demeaning, and insulting. Hmmmm. š
I think on the top level, reparations are about acknowledgement and validation. ” On the street” it will likely be a mess.
I work for a large tech company. We spend a lot of money and time to reach out to the black community to foster future engineers, yet the hiring still doesn’t reflect that. There is too much cultural inertia that contributes to this. I don’t buy into the current idea of systemic racism, yet the current struggles are a direct result of systemic racism in the not-to-distant past. Do support more investment in poor minority communities and further outreach like my company does.
We have a saying in the Midwest: “Eating your seed corn.” When a farmer is encountering hard times, he may be tempted to eat his seed corn. Although eating his seed corn provides immediate, short term relief, the farmer is left with no seed corn to plant for the following season. When the harvest comes, the farmer has no crop and no seed corn.
“In another report released Wednesday, the National Education Association estimated that without federal relief, the education system would lose 1.9 million education jobs. The American Federation of Teachers said budget cuts had already cost local public education systems more than 750,000 jobs, twice what they lost during the recession of 2008.”
Children are the seed corn of America. Funding their education should be for our society a matter of economic vitality, national security, morality, and prioritized as such IMO.
Children are our nation’s future, yes. The problem is that we have, proportionally, more disrespectful, I’d go so far as to say incompetent, educators than we we have bad cops…. There is more than one way to lose your seed corn. I don’t think more money IS the answer. At least not in the state of Washington where over 80% of our property taxes go to the educators.
I have a daughter who is a teacher. She home schooled and now substitute teaches (grammar school through high school) … A group of young students, marching in their 4th of July parade, spotted her, broke out of the parade ranks and ran over to say hello AND she is a tough, competent teacher – classes of all races and religions. She challenges her students to put their noses to the grindstone and learn. They learn that they can “learn” the tough stuff and they love it . No, more money isn’t the answer – IMV, of course
Just sayin.. cuz i can … .š
Em, no where in my appeal did I say anything about “more money.” What my post and the article I linked is about is the financial crisis that local school districts are facing due to State budget depletion due to C19 and increased costs that schools will incur to open safely during the pandemic.
Also, I do encourage policy making based on anecdote.
Em, Anecdotes or experience, it is basically the same thing. And you need not apologize.
We live in local communities, in regions, in States and so forth. What a policy maker needs to make good policy is data. Things like ACT and SAT scores. Things like reading levels by grade and mathematics skill levels by grade.
A policy maker needs to align the educational objectives, plans and results with the actual requirements of businesses. If a business needs certain skills and talents, they will go to where they can acquire those skills and talents. Their survival depends on acquiring the skills and talents they need to remain competitive in the sale of products or services. That survival will be accomplished here in the US, or more specifically in your State or mine, or oversees in China, India or Germany.
We have the future in front of us and we can determine our future, so far as God allows, but it will not happen by itself. We must be intentional. My argument is that an investment in our children is an investment in our country. I can assure you that our competitors are making extravagant investments in their children’s education and training.
The future is indeed in front of us — and generally, the younger you are, the more future you have to
shape!
I’ve always been really inspired by Lincoln and what he said about the need to follow our better angels, not our lower, depraved ones. To me it doesn’t matter if you’re Christian or whatever — I believe we each have the ability to act virtuously and aspirationally. We’re always in charge of our attitude no matter our situation.
bob1, @3:15 again i mostly agree with you… However…. .š
I do think people CAN be pushed beyond rational self control – either through false information or through intense persecution (rare) or because they have an evil nature and seldom come to repentance (they follow angels, fallen angels).
I would like to interpret your comments theologically.
“Iāve always been really inspired by Lincoln and what he said about the need to follow our better angels, not our lower, depraved ones.” Christians, who are simultaneously sinner and saint, are exhorted by Paul in Galatians to follow the Spirit and not gratify the desires of the flesh. I think Paul syncs well with Lincoln.
“To me it doesnāt matter if youāre Christian or whatever” In Romans Paul says that the Gentiles, who do not have the law of Moses, nevertheless have natural law written on their hearts. So, while not following the Spirit, we all know of non-Christians who nonetheless abide by natural law which recognizes human dignity and the image of God in the neighbor.
Your view human freedom, “We’re always in charge of our attitude,” goes further than I would, but I would agree that we’re all accountable for our attitudes. I think we put laws in place to curb our perverse attitudes.
I used to believe like you do, that our evil nature is to blame for any time we sin. I’ve been influenced by the writings of Viktor Frankl, the developer of logotherapy and author of
“Man’s Search for Meaning,” a great book about his time in 3 concentration camps. I really
think we always have control over our attitudes, no matter the circumstance.
Jean, Thanks!! I really appreciate your comments.
I just don’t believe Christians should excuse themselves from doing and acting virtually because we’re sinners. Too often it’s used as an excuse for not doing anything, and I don’t see how God is pleased with that (unless wisdom says that would be more virtuous).
A couple week ago, our President walked over to a DC church and held up a Bible for the press to photograph his personal allegiance to the Bible. The Bible teaches, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” and “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”
Would holding an indoor campaign rally in the middle of a pandemic with no social distancing requirements fulfill Christian love or the golden rule?
Rereading this thread today, thinking about “reparations…”. It seems to me that the blood spilled, the husbands, fathers, brothers and sons lost to win the Civil War, which preserved the nations unity, the rule of law, freeing the slaves in the bargain, makes a demand for reparations an insult.
Hopefully now, (150 years later?) we can provide liberty and justice for all and that isn’t defined as a fat paycheck… rather, as it is for most of us, education and opportunity – but most of all education… A mind IS a terrible thing to waste and, as i look around, it seems an awful lot of them are “wasted!”
IMHIO, of course.. š
To answer your question, I would say no it isn’t. But then if Trump is anything other than an unregenerate pagan, then then Elvis is still alive and the moon landings were faked. My take on Trump’s use of Scriptures and Christianity is best summed this way:
Funny how people see things…. When i looked at Trump’s “photo op” in front of the Church, what i saw was the sending of a message, “don’t mess with this Book or these people or the government will defend them!” Is Trump redeemed ? God knows, i don’t, but i am pretty sure we did put footprints on His moon and i suspect He smiled – i was in a canoe in Canada at the time, but i know the Church was covering those fellas with orayer.. š
Oh and Elvis IS dead as a doornail… LOL
I sure hope parents are using this time as a teachable moment…”Don’t be like our President…” Totally selfish and narcissistic, a serial liar, someone who creates hostility and division, not interested in learning, beyond gut impulses and conspiracy theories….the list could go on. and on and on.
A five-year-old knows what a lie is. It means not telling the truth. There are lots of euphemism folks use, to give President Dumpsterfire the benefit of the doubt. But he’s lying more now than when he first took office — including accusing a former Congressman of murder. But outright ying is never right. especially by leaders.
I’m saddened and kind of shocked that you profess to follow the God of Truth and question the meaning of “lie.”
“Seeing Trumpās falsehoods as foibles is folly. Trumpās lies are a feature, not a bug, of his Presidency and, indeed, of his entire public persona. His promotion of a sinister alternate reality divorced from facts is not an aberration that can be corrected. His misstatements are not mere mistakes.”
“…a book, by the Washington Postās Fact Checker staff, that will come out next week, āDonald Trump and His Assault on Truth.ā The book is not just a compendium of the Presidentās tens of thousands of falsehoods, misleading claims, and lies during the first three years of his Presidency; itās also an effort to catalogue and explain the different pathologies at work in his systematic misrepresentations to the American people. The untruths told by the President have increased in seriousness and volume, the Post found: an average of six per day in 2017 turned to nearly sixteen per day in 2018, which then increased to more than twenty-two per day in 2019āand that was before this crazy 2020 of the impeachment trial, the pandemic, the economic crisis, and Trumpās reĆ«lection campaign. The Presidentās use of Twitter has metastasized along with the false statements that he publishes on his feed; he is now sending out, every day, an average of nearly four times as many misleading tweets as he did during his first year in office.
Trump is a polarizing figure and I don’t want a polarized blog.
Let us agree to disagree. though he invokes strong emotional responses from many.
There’s no one here I don’t want here, so lets keep it together.
i apologize, Michael and i apologize for goading poor bob1 into justifying his choices and the lecture doesn’t bother me… i hope we can just let sleeping dogs lie now, however
so much of one’s assessments of what is going on around us is built off of our own life experiences – our frame of reference?
bob1 and most here have had different routes through life from what mine has been and i don’t consider a difference of opinion, our conclusions, grounds for animosity
God keep
It’s all yours today…
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2020/june-web-only/justice-too-long-delayed.html
CT is calling for the church(s) to make $$ financial reparations to black americans ?
I didnt know the CEO of CT had Apostolic Authority from God over all the evangelical churches in America.
What a great idea CT. Then set forth this example. And wire all cash funds available CT into BLM or similar. And make mandatory, that all CT employees to make a 10% reparation donation of there personal gross bank balance.
Let’s see how this works. And then I’ll pray about it.
E
“I didnt know the CEO of CT had Apostolic Authority from God over all the evangelical churches in America. ”
Apparently you don’t agree,They’re entitled to express their opinion.
That’s America.
You must be confusing CT with the idiots in the New Apostolic Bulls*it movement.
Also meant to say right after the quote, “They don’t.”
I am in favor of reparations, but not in the form of cash payments, as I don’t think they would help in the long run. I am in favor of affirmative action reparations which secure opportunities for African American children in charter schools and prestigious institutions of higher education. Also, I support affirmative action in the public and private sectors, such as internships, jobs and advancement.
I am speaking as one who would not qualify for affirmative action, whether as a Vietnam vet, disable person, racial minority or female.
I do object to affirmative action for homosexuals and transgenders, because I don’t believe they are a protected class within God’s good creation.
Jean,
So you’re in favor of the current system, with an add-on for private businesses, enforced by the state.
If I own a plumbing business with 10 plumbers on staff, how many need to be black? What should happen to me if I don’t meet the quota? May I promote the most qualified employees, or do I have an “advancement” quota as well?
Do me a favor and build a business from nothing and get back to me in 5 years to let me know how appropriate you feel it is to have bureaucrats who have never built anything telling you how to run your business.
Reparations are a great idea. In fact, the Egypt Christian churches including the Coptics. Need to pay reparations to all Israeli citizens of Jewish descent for the 400 years the Egyptians enslaved the Hebrews.
I would think a conversation on reparations would be enlightening & revealing. I think it would reveal long-held views of minorities and their historic hardships, mistreatment, and abuse that would curdle in the heat and light of the day. Reparations bring the latent out into the open–because there is wealth involved and all the emotions that go into the possession, earning, holding, giving, and sharing of wealth. It could be an amazing conversation or an absolute snark-fest full of bullying, demeaning, and insulting. Hmmmm. š
I think on the top level, reparations are about acknowledgement and validation. ” On the street” it will likely be a mess.
I work for a large tech company. We spend a lot of money and time to reach out to the black community to foster future engineers, yet the hiring still doesn’t reflect that. There is too much cultural inertia that contributes to this. I don’t buy into the current idea of systemic racism, yet the current struggles are a direct result of systemic racism in the not-to-distant past. Do support more investment in poor minority communities and further outreach like my company does.
TNV – your second paragraph at 9:35 was “spot on”. IMHO, of course. š
We have a saying in the Midwest: “Eating your seed corn.” When a farmer is encountering hard times, he may be tempted to eat his seed corn. Although eating his seed corn provides immediate, short term relief, the farmer is left with no seed corn to plant for the following season. When the harvest comes, the farmer has no crop and no seed corn.
“In another report released Wednesday, the National Education Association estimated that without federal relief, the education system would lose 1.9 million education jobs. The American Federation of Teachers said budget cuts had already cost local public education systems more than 750,000 jobs, twice what they lost during the recession of 2008.”
Children are the seed corn of America. Funding their education should be for our society a matter of economic vitality, national security, morality, and prioritized as such IMO.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/10/us/politics/virus-schools-funding-budget.html
Children are our nation’s future, yes. The problem is that we have, proportionally, more disrespectful, I’d go so far as to say incompetent, educators than we we have bad cops…. There is more than one way to lose your seed corn. I don’t think more money IS the answer. At least not in the state of Washington where over 80% of our property taxes go to the educators.
I have a daughter who is a teacher. She home schooled and now substitute teaches (grammar school through high school) … A group of young students, marching in their 4th of July parade, spotted her, broke out of the parade ranks and ran over to say hello AND she is a tough, competent teacher – classes of all races and religions. She challenges her students to put their noses to the grindstone and learn. They learn that they can “learn” the tough stuff and they love it . No, more money isn’t the answer – IMV, of course
Just sayin.. cuz i can … .š
Children are the future and given the state of American Christianity, they will be “Dones” at even higher rate than other segments of the population.
CM, that’s on the church.
Em, no where in my appeal did I say anything about “more money.” What my post and the article I linked is about is the financial crisis that local school districts are facing due to State budget depletion due to C19 and increased costs that schools will incur to open safely during the pandemic.
Also, I do encourage policy making based on anecdote.
Policy making based on anecdotes? Or experience….
I do apologize for rabbit trailing off your post, Jean
Em, Anecdotes or experience, it is basically the same thing. And you need not apologize.
We live in local communities, in regions, in States and so forth. What a policy maker needs to make good policy is data. Things like ACT and SAT scores. Things like reading levels by grade and mathematics skill levels by grade.
A policy maker needs to align the educational objectives, plans and results with the actual requirements of businesses. If a business needs certain skills and talents, they will go to where they can acquire those skills and talents. Their survival depends on acquiring the skills and talents they need to remain competitive in the sale of products or services. That survival will be accomplished here in the US, or more specifically in your State or mine, or oversees in China, India or Germany.
We have the future in front of us and we can determine our future, so far as God allows, but it will not happen by itself. We must be intentional. My argument is that an investment in our children is an investment in our country. I can assure you that our competitors are making extravagant investments in their children’s education and training.
Riffing off Jean’s last comment.
The future is indeed in front of us — and generally, the younger you are, the more future you have to
shape!
I’ve always been really inspired by Lincoln and what he said about the need to follow our better angels, not our lower, depraved ones. To me it doesn’t matter if you’re Christian or whatever — I believe we each have the ability to act virtuously and aspirationally. We’re always in charge of our attitude no matter our situation.
bob1, @3:15 again i mostly agree with you… However…. .š
I do think people CAN be pushed beyond rational self control – either through false information or through intense persecution (rare) or because they have an evil nature and seldom come to repentance (they follow angels, fallen angels).
bob1,
I would like to interpret your comments theologically.
“Iāve always been really inspired by Lincoln and what he said about the need to follow our better angels, not our lower, depraved ones.” Christians, who are simultaneously sinner and saint, are exhorted by Paul in Galatians to follow the Spirit and not gratify the desires of the flesh. I think Paul syncs well with Lincoln.
“To me it doesnāt matter if youāre Christian or whatever” In Romans Paul says that the Gentiles, who do not have the law of Moses, nevertheless have natural law written on their hearts. So, while not following the Spirit, we all know of non-Christians who nonetheless abide by natural law which recognizes human dignity and the image of God in the neighbor.
Your view human freedom, “We’re always in charge of our attitude,” goes further than I would, but I would agree that we’re all accountable for our attitudes. I think we put laws in place to curb our perverse attitudes.
But, overall, you offer a lot of wisdom.
Em,
I used to believe like you do, that our evil nature is to blame for any time we sin. I’ve been influenced by the writings of Viktor Frankl, the developer of logotherapy and author of
“Man’s Search for Meaning,” a great book about his time in 3 concentration camps. I really
think we always have control over our attitudes, no matter the circumstance.
Jean, Thanks!! I really appreciate your comments.
I just don’t believe Christians should excuse themselves from doing and acting virtually because we’re sinners. Too often it’s used as an excuse for not doing anything, and I don’t see how God is pleased with that (unless wisdom says that would be more virtuous).
Do we have control or accountability? Some of both, i think but…
On judgement day we have one plea or a whole lot of empty self justification
Jean,
“I think we put laws in place to curb our perverse attitudes.”
I would submit that we put laws in place to curb our perverse actions. It’s much harder, if not impossible, to legislate one’s attitude.
Everstudy,
Good corrective. I agree with you. Thank you.
A Question for the House:
A couple week ago, our President walked over to a DC church and held up a Bible for the press to photograph his personal allegiance to the Bible. The Bible teaches, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” and “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”
Would holding an indoor campaign rally in the middle of a pandemic with no social distancing requirements fulfill Christian love or the golden rule?
Rereading this thread today, thinking about “reparations…”. It seems to me that the blood spilled, the husbands, fathers, brothers and sons lost to win the Civil War, which preserved the nations unity, the rule of law, freeing the slaves in the bargain, makes a demand for reparations an insult.
Hopefully now, (150 years later?) we can provide liberty and justice for all and that isn’t defined as a fat paycheck… rather, as it is for most of us, education and opportunity – but most of all education… A mind IS a terrible thing to waste and, as i look around, it seems an awful lot of them are “wasted!”
IMHIO, of course.. š
Jean,
To answer your question, I would say no it isn’t. But then if Trump is anything other than an unregenerate pagan, then then Elvis is still alive and the moon landings were faked. My take on Trump’s use of Scriptures and Christianity is best summed this way:
https://babylonbee.com/news/paula-white-advising-trump-name-jesus-personal-gain
Funny how people see things…. When i looked at Trump’s “photo op” in front of the Church, what i saw was the sending of a message, “don’t mess with this Book or these people or the government will defend them!” Is Trump redeemed ? God knows, i don’t, but i am pretty sure we did put footprints on His moon and i suspect He smiled – i was in a canoe in Canada at the time, but i know the Church was covering those fellas with orayer.. š
Oh and Elvis IS dead as a doornail… LOL
I sure hope parents are using this time as a teachable moment…”Don’t be like our President…” Totally selfish and narcissistic, a serial liar, someone who creates hostility and division, not interested in learning, beyond gut impulses and conspiracy theories….the list could go on. and on and on.
bob1…. Include Pelosi in your don’t be like list…. from where i sit, of course…. š
Sorry, Em.
I won’t do that. She hasn’t told 17,000+ documented lies, etc., etc.
bob1, not sure then what you call lies…. ?
But no worries. š
A five-year-old knows what a lie is. It means not telling the truth. There are lots of euphemism folks use, to give President Dumpsterfire the benefit of the doubt. But he’s lying more now than when he first took office — including accusing a former Congressman of murder. But outright ying is never right. especially by leaders.
I’m saddened and kind of shocked that you profess to follow the God of Truth and question the meaning of “lie.”
“Seeing Trumpās falsehoods as foibles is folly. Trumpās lies are a feature, not a bug, of his Presidency and, indeed, of his entire public persona. His promotion of a sinister alternate reality divorced from facts is not an aberration that can be corrected. His misstatements are not mere mistakes.”
“…a book, by the Washington Postās Fact Checker staff, that will come out next week, āDonald Trump and His Assault on Truth.ā The book is not just a compendium of the Presidentās tens of thousands of falsehoods, misleading claims, and lies during the first three years of his Presidency; itās also an effort to catalogue and explain the different pathologies at work in his systematic misrepresentations to the American people. The untruths told by the President have increased in seriousness and volume, the Post found: an average of six per day in 2017 turned to nearly sixteen per day in 2018, which then increased to more than twenty-two per day in 2019āand that was before this crazy 2020 of the impeachment trial, the pandemic, the economic crisis, and Trumpās reĆ«lection campaign. The Presidentās use of Twitter has metastasized along with the false statements that he publishes on his feed; he is now sending out, every day, an average of nearly four times as many misleading tweets as he did during his first year in office.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-trumps-washington/the-most-mendacious-president-in-us-history
Time out.
Trump is a polarizing figure and I don’t want a polarized blog.
Let us agree to disagree. though he invokes strong emotional responses from many.
There’s no one here I don’t want here, so lets keep it together.
i apologize, Michael and i apologize for goading poor bob1 into justifying his choices and the lecture doesn’t bother me… i hope we can just let sleeping dogs lie now, however
so much of one’s assessments of what is going on around us is built off of our own life experiences – our frame of reference?
bob1 and most here have had different routes through life from what mine has been and i don’t consider a difference of opinion, our conclusions, grounds for animosity
God keep