Is there a more pernicious doctrine than all the iterations of an earthly kingdom of Christ?
In virtually every denomination that idea has brought disastrous human consequences.
From Christian Reconstructionism to NAR to pretrib to State churches to Romanism we keep reinventing ways to coerce kingdom participation or leave the world to the devil.
We are ill. Christendom may have to die in order to be reborn. It may have to be eradicated to rise.
Within a generation the argument will be loudly shouted that Christendom is bad for health and safety. They will applaud its destruction.
“Is there a more pernicious doctrine than all the iterations of an earthly kingdom of Christ?”
Is it possible that we are all the way back to the period right before the destruction of the Temple up through the Bar-Kokhba revolt? In our case, the Christian nationalists stand in the place of the Jews defending the Temple and/or the nationalist revolutionaries that followed Bar-Kokhba and perished. Meanwhile, the new Christian community was forming. While false prophets and conspiracy theories abounded among the defenders of Jerusalem and the later revolutionaries, among the Christian community we had the Didache and the Apostolic Fathers quietly and steadily teaching the faith. The greater part of their teaching, by the way, came right out of the Gospels.
I’ve given up on the majority of those who call themselves “evangelicals”… Whatever connection they may have had with the faith once delivered has long since been severed by their own hand. They are defending a Temple already abandoned by God.
“Is there a more pernicious doctrine than all the iterations of an earthly kingdom of Christ?”
I believe that as long as there are Christians on earth, the kingdom of Christ is made manifest. However, I don’t think it manifests itself through the power of temporal kingdoms. I think it manifests itself on earth through the faith, love and hope of its citizens.
There are people in America who have dual citizenship. I must confess that I don’t know exactly how that works, whether one is supposed to take precedence over the other in the event of a conflict or what? But Christians should see themselves as having dual citizenship in America: First (and preeminently) as citizens of Christ’s kingdom, and second as U.S. citizens.
Christianity is not a mystery cult or secret society, and that is precisely why the presence of Christ’s kingdom within a temporal kingdom (such as America) ‘should’ bring blessing to all the citizens of the temporal kingdom. Think about this: If Christians live by God’s design for humanity, how could such living not bring blessing to the overall society?
The society is not coercing Christians to lie, murder, defame, abuse, pollute, cheat, steal. “Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” And here we have to add the proviso: “, unless they are one of our political opponents.”
At what point can we stop worrying about the left and the right and get about taking care of our own business?
I find both sides contemptible…and irrelevant to mission.
What am I missing?
You’re missing that here you guys tend to uniquely critique the right and give the left a pass and then accuse me of being political even when I bring the same calls for the kingdom
I critique the right because they currently claim to be the representatives of Christ to this country…should the left ascend to that level I will smite them as soundly.
My point is that it will only be when we “come out from them” both that anything resembling the true Christian faith will be represented…
It’s interesting that the Letter of Barnabas (c. 130) reflects on the destruction of the temple as the Jews “almost like the gentiles” locking God within the sacred walls of the Temple or their own nation, preferring an earthly kingdom; but God sentenced the sanctuary and the nation to be destroyed in order to live “truly in our houses within us” that is, a kingdom that is not of this earth. If applied to Christian nationalism, the argument is very similar…
I’m sorry, but the Republican Party is so far off the rails it’d be funny were it not likely to cause more bloodshed. And a large percentage of evangelicals support them still. I don’t see the left actively stoking revolutionary rhetoric or advocating violence currently, although I did see that in the summer. BD, I responded to you on Linkathon.
“… I believe the left to be as vile and corrupted as the right and to be just as desolate in its secular temple.”
Additionally, I could be wrong, but while Jesus often spoke of the Temple in Jerusalem, I can’t recall his speaking about the secular/civic temples of the Romans. Of course, I could have missed that passage…
Michael, I do understand where you’re coming from with wanting to focus on the kingdom, and eschew politics. I guess I get confused about loving our neighbors by standing for the truth and fighting against social oppression. Aren’t we as believers to stand for justice for all people? And doesn’t that automatically involve us in politics? Or perhaps some are called to engage politically and some are called to focus on the things of the church. We don’t all have the same calling. Frankly, I am very confused right now as to just what in the hell we are experiencing. Because it’s pretty weird
I don’t have this all figured out.
My main thought at this point is that “the church” is supposed to be a separate entity living out the way of Jesus as a witness of Him to the powers of the world.
We influence by our lives and actions and the moral authority inherent in sacrificial love through the power of the Holy Spirit.
We stand by serving those oppressed and living justly in the face of injustice.
Christ is the center, reason, and guide.
Both “sides” have lost the center…they are dismal, dangerous , spiritual failures.
This conversation is reminding me quite a bit of the way John depicts the Kingdom of God vs. the empires of this world. For the last couple of months, the picture of Revelation 5 (the slain, little Lamb at the center of the Throne, angels, and creatures) has been stuck in my mind, and I can’t shake it. Much of what is called Christianity today seems to be deeply entrenched in the ways of the Dragon, the ways of coercion, power, and oppression. And I grieve that deeply. But there is hope yet! For the Lamb has already conquered by His death, and there is always a remanent. The Lamb displays His power by death, by sacrificial love, and I pray that I will be brave enough to follow Him wherever He goes.
I just put my 12 acres up here in the mountains up for sale. – full price offer first day. Now we’ll see if they follow through with no hitches. It is a beautiful piece where my late husband and i thought we’d build a getaway some day, so i won’t stand for any whittling away of the terms… So far, it’s thank You, Lord!
All this while a surgeon is cutting away more of my nose My best feature is now full of stitches and covered in bandages. Hopefully the result won’t scare small children. Put that sunscreen on folks
Good word, Gabby. The Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world has already and will ultimately prevail. And we can trust that. We can trust Him. I pray the same, that my faith may not fail.
BD. I’ve picked a random quote from the founding of Evangelicalism. Harold Ockenga at Fuller’s Commencement.
Here is a demonstration of “cultural engagement” as defined by the Neo-Evangelicals. It was a military term. It was a battle for the soul of the World. Meaning external, not internal change.
Seventy years pass and the embryonic beginning has evolved…I would say corrupted… just like the proceeding Fundamentalism. Where will the threat come from? The “Left?” Not really. Yes, in times past some social movements have threatened segments of the Church. If you where a devout worshiper sent to Siberia by the Bolsheviks, you would say the “Left” is a threat.
But for the rest of us, the threat is infiltration and corruption coming from the Right. Specifically, the Religious Right. That’s why some of us get our hair up, depending on who is spreading their influence.
..”…We who believe the Bible and the supernatural power of God instead of in reformation have disassociated ourselves from the program of social reform from the matters of lawlessness and of inebriation, and of crime and of war, and of rape, and other things. We believe that Jesus is coming with all our hearts. But we believe that Jesus told us to “occupy” till he comes. By the grace of God we don’t intend to default for the sake of the generations that are to come.”..
Evangelicals are vulnerable to someone coming along and saying…I can help you occupy.
BD. I expect the World to be the World. On occasion the World can be dangerous. But I fear those who want a Kingdom on Earth. I now fear Evangelicalism. The Left doesn’t even get a nervous glance from me now.
Nathan, I agree completely. This morning I woke up to an announcement from a Facebook friend that a desert storm veterans group I’ve been involved in for years has been banned by Facebook. 28,000 veterans in this group. The reason Facebook gave was “violating community standards in relation to dangerous individuals or organizations. In the comment section, an individual posted “If you think January 6 was overthrowing the US government, you haven’t seen anything yet.” This is been coming for years. The admin’s tried valiantly to keep the extremists out, but obviously they failed. Not only is there no support group for me and my comrades any longer, but…. I fear more bloodshed is coming. And it’s not coming from the left.
From Michael Gerson, conservative and a Christian who hasn’t lost his mind.
Paragraph 3 is especially chilling. This is what I posted about the other day — if you demonize your opponents (in this case, Dems) you can literally lose your life. Ideologies kill.
“By a conservative standard, what should we make of the activists and participants at CPAC? It is worth noting that many who attend each year are young. What moral messages is an older generation transmitting to the next?
“With many of the sessions premised on the big lie of a stolen presidential election, young attendees will certainly be taught that truth is infinitely malleable in service to ideology.
“They will surely be instructed that their political opponents are really ruthless, inhuman enemies, bent on canceling and silencing them by any means necessary.”
By the systematic downplaying of the recent attack on the Capitol — and probably some wink-and-nudge approval — they will learn that the recourse to violence is permissible in politics, and that democracy is valuable only if it serves their ends.
From Trump’s deification they will learn that civility is for losers, that compassion is for suckers, that misogyny can be fun, that strength requires brutality and that racism makes for good politics.
They will learn that deadly incompetence, based on lies and lunacy and costing countless lives, means nothing. They will learn that the Constitution can be shredded in the pursuit of raw power and that populism must be rowdy enough and transgressive enough to break a few windows and kill a few policemen.”
1. I have a niece who is Asian-American. She has been getting ugly glances of late.
2. My sister and brother-in-law’s business in downtown Minneapolis has been closed indefinitely due to a pandemic and a riot.
3. I’ve personally seen some militia members here out and about in Georgia.
I take this personally when someone says “it’s all so-and-so’s fault”.
Thanks Michael. My number 3 was meant to convey a sense of unease in this world. I certainly don’t feel safe when I see certain individuals out and about who I KNOW are packing more than enough metal and ammo for self-defense.
Michael, I agree…most people these day’s don’t want to give in to facts, or see things from another point of view, let alone have their beliefs challenged.
There is much unease in this world.
As a child I grew up with guns everywhere…I think I got my first .22 when I was five.
My grandfather made it for me.
My grandfather melted his own lead and made his own ammo.
The thought of using one against the government was unheard of.
If I would have open carried into the local grocery store or cafe…somebody would have knocked me senseless for acting a fool.
I would have deserved it…
A strong piece from Chris Matthews about President Biden paying a visit to Bob Dole, who, sadly, is dying of throat cancer. It was kept off his public schedule.
A couple of good quotes:
“(The visit) struck me as just the kind of event to keep off the president’s public schedule. Why? Because it’s not about the usual public persona. It’s about something more. It’s the human kind that makes all the other possible. It’s the social cement that holds the bricks together. It’s the element in legislative power that has been under assault not just during Trump’s poisonous reign but under Newt Gingrich and others who turned rough politics into blood sport.
“…You’ll never read in the newspapers about the “gym dinner.” Yet it matters. I remember the night the first George Bush, a former House member from Houston back in the 60s, brought Ronald Reagan to one. He knew it was a way the new president could pay proper respect to the Congress, by showing up when there were no cameras, no way to take advantage except with where it was deserved by his coming.”
“This is the world Newt Gingrich tried to destroy in the 1990s. He decided this goodwill across party lines was killing Republican chances. Like Lenin, he decided his revolution required the politicization of personal life. Having risen to his Speakership attacking any effort to get things done as appeasement, and being the first C-SPAN demagogue,…”
What if we had known our collection of texts is not inerrant? What if we had known the apocalypse was not about our future? How, then, might the knife have slipped (Gal. 5:12) long ago upon what has sadly and dangerously developed into today’s radicalized Republicanism and fascigelicalism?
I get daily excoriated for talking politics as well as theology. The reason is clear for me. Life is ONE and meta narratives abound in culture, our faith is not a sacred space kept far from our lives. It is front and center. Political parties, ideologies, religions, and culture itself are all salvation narratives. They all have a view of man, the world, God or gods, justice/righteousness, end times/utopian state, on and on. American political parties are salvation narratives.
When we speak of humanity and what is wrong and how it may be set right and what is just and true we are talking theologically and it always has outcomes in the human playground – politic or as Duane wants to remind me when he hates what I say — THE CITY. Augustine did indeed pose a two tiered city of man and God he was after all rather platonic in his worldview. Of course he will instruct you better on that.
By the way THIS Is called OPEN blogging so I practice open posting.
Every issue raised here is about God and man, every issue is about salvation and damnation. I am the one who decried “earthly kingdoms” to open the thread. Our leaders whether they be religious or political are all trying to diagnose and save us. The Equality Act is a salvation document. We definitely ought to talk about such things and their outcome because we care about humanity. We want to be saved.
I come here and fight with the bent of this blog because you guys have found one major bogeyman. I have agreed with you about that bogeyman over and over. But as Priddis pointed out you don’t care about any other bogeymen — yes I caricature … end of conversation
But not… This is the one place left where I converse. Michael says we can do better all the time… we can .
Violence has been in our streets all summer and fall it abated some when CNN told the left to knock it off for the election. In January the right brought their own version to the capitol building. Violence is brewing in our nation. It is bi-polar. It is deadly. It will not make peace with half measures.
The kingdom of Christ calls us higher but it has not taken us out. We are all in this. I intend to keep contending but I may not as I have managed to be pushed from every public venue by the pain.
It shows a toxic culture of denial, lying, hiding and intimidation of (among other words that could be used) whistleblowers. Really just people speaking and seeking the truth.
Michael, there are so many points that would resonate with your; from so many of you P P regulars, I imagine it would for you as well.
And let’s not forget it the Marxists who did that, lest we think the forces pushing us towards Marxism are different.
For my left leaning friends who think this is too partisan, it’s not hard to look to W, Obama or Trump to find times when they hid the truth and/or got insular, surrounded by yes men and thus ignored the truth.
BD,
I advocate for your continued contention and presence.
As to our bogeymen…
I would give you a description of the life I lead, but it’s too tiring to even write.
I am not alone in having such a schedule.
I only have limited energy to care about external matters and rage is a luxury I can partake of as a diabetic sneaks an occasional cookie.
Thus, my focus has to be on a few specific things.
I can care a little about cultural follies, but am old enough to know they pass.
I remember that Time magazine once proclaimed the death of God and now God lives and Time still speaks, but no one hears it.
The church has always been my passion and I have fought for her for most of my adult life.
The church is what must be reformed, for in the church lies true salvation and the answers that we need to live.
Arguing about which political party is more vile is like debating which sort of cancer you prefer.
It is no secret that I also advocate for immigration reform…but after banging my head on that wall for years I am too aware that unless the love of God and neighbor is shred abroad in hearts it will never come.
This brings me back to the church…where I will stay for the most part.
As I reread… I see it appeared I was talking of an exit… no that is not my plan. But it is the reality that I have left every other public outlet… so I could not boast of robustly being able to stay
I hope to increase my presence but only in salutary means… something useful, something recalcitrant like the space you have carved… somewhere to lament and cry out.
The 20th century scarred us all more than we know… fascists, communists, monsters of sea and land and we are all warning of their return.
“This latter contrast is indicative of the main difficulty many Christians have with eschatology. Many of us are so well installed in the present order that we look at its passing not with hope, but rather with dread. We are not among those who are to “stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is coming near,” but rather among those who “faint from fear and foreboding of what is coming upon the world.” We convince ourselves that the kingdom of Christian hope is a nice idea, but little more than a chimera. It is not rational. It is the expectation of a bygone age of superstition, still kept alive by ignorant people who should know better.
But perhaps our thinking on this matter is tainted by our own secret hope, which is no longer the hope for the new order, but rather the hope that the present will never pass away. And so, just as Augustine used to pray, “Give me chastity, but not just yet,” we pray, “Thy kingdom come,” and then silently add, “but not just yet.” It is precisely because of this that Jesus warns: “Be on guard so that your hearts are not weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of this life, and that day does not catch you unexpectedly, like a trap” (vv. 34–35)
My take, for what it is worth, is that the eschaton is a present reality and not a distant hope. Every time we consecrate the bread and the wine, eternity breaks in to the present. (Yes, realized eschatology) If I believe that, it makes a difference in how I view the City of Man. I may live there, but my true citizenship is in the City of God. In the City of Man the most that I can hope for and pray for is the character of our leaders and that justice will be exercised. My task in this pilgrimage is not primarily the reordering of secular society, but rather to live a life, individually and corporately (as in the Church) that seeks to be an imitation of Christ and one that emulates the values expressed in the Gospels…
Why do we think that we are so unique? Theories of government, social change, etc. have been with us for 2,000 years… but now we spend out time and effort on theories and conspiracies that have precious little to do with the faith. I really do not get it…
Our realized eschatology and sacramental life puts us here, now incarnate in the world of humanity and for salutary purposes. Conspiracy theories have not had one minute of play in this blog but ideas, ideologies, and narratives are everywhere and we must engage them as surely as Christians have engaged, Judaizers, Gnostics, Arians, and every other form of idea that exalts itself in our midst.
BD.
That portion of my childhood that laid within Fundamentalism, taught me the importance of regular contact with those not like ourselves. Not only for educational purposes, but for safety, and not becoming freaking religiously insane. I think your comments are very valuable. I appreciate them.
Duane.
It’s strange how one can come from the lowest of low church, crossed with an interest of the quantum mechanics of reality, and come out saying an emphatic yes, to your list. A bifurcated reality, City of God, Citizenship, suffering in pilgrimage.
All those ideologies you mention affected core beliefs of the church.
I agree that those must be addressed, thus the constant drumbeat against Christian nationalism.
Persuade me that passing fads like CRT etc do the same…and if their impact could be mitigated by a simple proclamation of a Jesus untethered to party.
I may hear incorrectly.
What I hear is come out from sexual confusion, racial strife, etc, and come over to my political party that holds a correct view on these matters…instead of come out of these things to Jesus and his church…
I have noted that the new orthodoxy of the religious right demands such…and they have declared me a damnable heretic.
CRT is indeed a kind of heresy that diagnoses the problem by grouping people into categories of oppressor and oppressed. It’s the spawn of Marxism and Marxism is a form of utopian heresy.
The best theological addressing of CRT or what he prefers to call simply identity politics is being done by Joshua Mitchel (a political theory professor from Georgetown and a self-described Augustinian) or as he told me personally, a theologian at heart.
He is doing a very credible job of assessing the current problem as one of stain and innocence in the absence of forgiveness.
As for the simple proclamation of the Gospel Mitchell is pretty clear that this identity politics is self-devouring. It villainizes the white male, and then the white female (as transgenderism has proven) and eventually must aim at the black heterosexual male. Mitchell believes the only short term hope of stemming this tide lies in the proclamation of a gospel of guilt and stain removed by Jesus specifically in the Black church and for the Black church to resist amelioration into grievance politics. Choosing Jesus over Marx.
Give him a listen or a read. He is another lifelong classical liberal and Tocqueville scholar probably the most riveting voice I have heard
He is offering a legitimate theological remedy for this clear and present danger. I have been poorly echoing what I learn from him and others.
Make no mistake I see the current moment as theological. Trumpism is a demonic response. I know that.
I will look him up.
My thought has been for years that all these ideologies are self devouring…thus, my concern is only about short term damage and long term consequences for a few.
“No common world can be built from identity politics. Its view of death divides those who can quarantine from those who cannot; its view of sin divides the irredeemably damned from the eternally pure and innocent. Americans will reject this madness when they have had their fill of a distorted religious vision masquerading as a redemptive politics. In politics there is no redemption, only unending labor.”
Joshua Mitchell
I agree… I’d rather expend my labor on that which is truly redemptive.
It made me think of something Tom Friedman recently wrote.
He was contrasting the news about our landing on Mars with what just happened in Texas.
His salient point is, “We need to stop thinking only short-term. It’s leading to our ruin.
“We just sent a high-tech buggy named Perseverance loaded with cameras and scientific gear 292 million miles into space and landed it on the exact dot we were aiming for on Mars! Only in America!
“What’s going on? Well, in the case of Texas and Mars, the basic answers are simple. Texas is the poster child for what happens when you turn everything into politics — including science, Mother Nature and energy — and try to maximize short-term profits over long-term resilience in an era of extreme weather. The Mars landing is the poster child for letting science guide us and inspire audacious goals and the long-term investments to achieve them.
The Mars mind-set used to be more our norm. The Texas mind-set has replaced it in way too many cases. Going forward, if we want more Mars landings and fewer Texas collapses — what’s happening to people there is truly heartbreaking — we need to take a cold, hard look at what produced each.
The essence of Texas thinking was expressed by Gov. Greg Abbott in the first big interview he gave to explain why the state’s electricity grid failed during a record freeze. He told Fox News’s Sean Hannity: “This shows how the Green New Deal would be a deadly deal for the United States of America. … Our wind and our solar got shut down, and they were collectively more than 10 percent of our power grid, and that thrust Texas into a situation where it was lacking power on a statewide basis. … It just shows that fossil fuel is necessary.”
The combined dishonesty and boneheadedness of those few sentences was breathtaking. The truth? Texas radically deregulated its energy market in ways that encouraged every producer to generate the most energy at the least cost with the least resilience — and to ignore the long-term trend toward more extreme weather.”
I just wanted to say that all of the above comments made for a very interesting read, and I wanted to thank all of the contributors for their words wisdom. I thank Michael for this blog that allows so many diverse voices to contend for The Faith! Your words give all of us much to think and pray about! God bless.
“ I do reckon much of the mainline church to be simply secular versions of the Christian religion even as you consider evangelicalism to be nationalism”
After moving about 3 weeks ago to a new state, tomorrow morning I am being welcomed into the fellowship of a new church. One of the things I looked for, based on some things I read here (especially from Xenia), was a congregation in my town, where I could worship and do church stuff in my local community. I don’t think I would have developed this viewpoint without the discussions we have had here over the years. They stick.
To some what I am doing may sound easy and convenient. But as a confessional Lutheran, there are not confessional Lutheran congregations in every community, and some folks travel substantial distances for church. In my case God has blessed me with a congregation in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, which shares the same confessional doctrines as my previous congregation, which was affiliated with the LCMS.
Tomorrow, I will have the opportunity to commune with my new congregation for the first time.
Jean, Congratulations on joining a new church, and for successfully completing your move! ( No small feat in the middle of a pandemic). We usually go to Wisconsin every year to visit my father and brother but we were not able to visit this past year because of the pandemic. My father, brother, and husband have all been vaccinated, but here in California you have to be over 65 to be vaccinated. My husband and I have remarked how much we miss our yearly visit to such a lovely state. Hopefully, I will get my shot soon and we can plan our visit to Wisconsin this summer!
Jean and BrideofChrist, a few times per year (sans Pandemic) my wife and I make the drive from Georgia to Minnesota. We drive into Wisconsin from Rockford…trough Janesville, to Madison, Camp Douglas and the Dells, and then through some very beautiful rolling hills to Eau Claire, then on to Hudson, WI and to the Twin Cities. I think that the drive through Wisconsin (we take, I believe I90 to I94) is incredibly beautiful and picturesque.
Dan, We’ve been to Eau Claire ( home of the American Pickers)! Very scenic river town. We brought out daughter and her new husband there to take the river boat trip from Eau Claire to Du’buque, Iowa. Good memories for us, and those memories keep us going through this Coivid nightmare.
It’s all yours today…
Is there a more pernicious doctrine than all the iterations of an earthly kingdom of Christ?
In virtually every denomination that idea has brought disastrous human consequences.
From Christian Reconstructionism to NAR to pretrib to State churches to Romanism we keep reinventing ways to coerce kingdom participation or leave the world to the devil.
We are ill. Christendom may have to die in order to be reborn. It may have to be eradicated to rise.
Within a generation the argument will be loudly shouted that Christendom is bad for health and safety. They will applaud its destruction.
Yes I’m insane.
“Within a generation the argument will be loudly shouted that Christendom is bad for health and safety. They will applaud its destruction.”
It’s already happening and in many ways I’m not sure they are wrong.
It’s rare when a day goes by when I’m not asked why I still profess Christianity…
BD/Michael
“Is there a more pernicious doctrine than all the iterations of an earthly kingdom of Christ?”
Is it possible that we are all the way back to the period right before the destruction of the Temple up through the Bar-Kokhba revolt? In our case, the Christian nationalists stand in the place of the Jews defending the Temple and/or the nationalist revolutionaries that followed Bar-Kokhba and perished. Meanwhile, the new Christian community was forming. While false prophets and conspiracy theories abounded among the defenders of Jerusalem and the later revolutionaries, among the Christian community we had the Didache and the Apostolic Fathers quietly and steadily teaching the faith. The greater part of their teaching, by the way, came right out of the Gospels.
I’ve given up on the majority of those who call themselves “evangelicals”… Whatever connection they may have had with the faith once delivered has long since been severed by their own hand. They are defending a Temple already abandoned by God.
Duane,
That was interesting…I’m getting ready to teach on Luke 21 and the very same thought occurred to me…glad I clicked over here for confirmation… 🙂
Duane
Fascinating observation except I believe the left to be as vile and corrupted as the right and to be just as desolate in its secular temple.
“Is there a more pernicious doctrine than all the iterations of an earthly kingdom of Christ?”
I believe that as long as there are Christians on earth, the kingdom of Christ is made manifest. However, I don’t think it manifests itself through the power of temporal kingdoms. I think it manifests itself on earth through the faith, love and hope of its citizens.
There are people in America who have dual citizenship. I must confess that I don’t know exactly how that works, whether one is supposed to take precedence over the other in the event of a conflict or what? But Christians should see themselves as having dual citizenship in America: First (and preeminently) as citizens of Christ’s kingdom, and second as U.S. citizens.
Christianity is not a mystery cult or secret society, and that is precisely why the presence of Christ’s kingdom within a temporal kingdom (such as America) ‘should’ bring blessing to all the citizens of the temporal kingdom. Think about this: If Christians live by God’s design for humanity, how could such living not bring blessing to the overall society?
The society is not coercing Christians to lie, murder, defame, abuse, pollute, cheat, steal. “Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” And here we have to add the proviso: “, unless they are one of our political opponents.”
BD,
At what point can we stop worrying about the left and the right and get about taking care of our own business?
I find both sides contemptible…and irrelevant to mission.
What am I missing?
Michael
You’re missing that here you guys tend to uniquely critique the right and give the left a pass and then accuse me of being political even when I bring the same calls for the kingdom
BD,
I critique the right because they currently claim to be the representatives of Christ to this country…should the left ascend to that level I will smite them as soundly.
My point is that it will only be when we “come out from them” both that anything resembling the true Christian faith will be represented…
Michael/BD
I’m talking theology… not politics.
It’s interesting that the Letter of Barnabas (c. 130) reflects on the destruction of the temple as the Jews “almost like the gentiles” locking God within the sacred walls of the Temple or their own nation, preferring an earthly kingdom; but God sentenced the sanctuary and the nation to be destroyed in order to live “truly in our houses within us” that is, a kingdom that is not of this earth. If applied to Christian nationalism, the argument is very similar…
Duane just made my point
I’m sorry, but the Republican Party is so far off the rails it’d be funny were it not likely to cause more bloodshed. And a large percentage of evangelicals support them still. I don’t see the left actively stoking revolutionary rhetoric or advocating violence currently, although I did see that in the summer. BD, I responded to you on Linkathon.
“… I believe the left to be as vile and corrupted as the right and to be just as desolate in its secular temple.”
Additionally, I could be wrong, but while Jesus often spoke of the Temple in Jerusalem, I can’t recall his speaking about the secular/civic temples of the Romans. Of course, I could have missed that passage…
Michael, I do understand where you’re coming from with wanting to focus on the kingdom, and eschew politics. I guess I get confused about loving our neighbors by standing for the truth and fighting against social oppression. Aren’t we as believers to stand for justice for all people? And doesn’t that automatically involve us in politics? Or perhaps some are called to engage politically and some are called to focus on the things of the church. We don’t all have the same calling. Frankly, I am very confused right now as to just what in the hell we are experiencing. Because it’s pretty weird
Mike E,
I don’t have this all figured out.
My main thought at this point is that “the church” is supposed to be a separate entity living out the way of Jesus as a witness of Him to the powers of the world.
We influence by our lives and actions and the moral authority inherent in sacrificial love through the power of the Holy Spirit.
We stand by serving those oppressed and living justly in the face of injustice.
Christ is the center, reason, and guide.
Both “sides” have lost the center…they are dismal, dangerous , spiritual failures.
This conversation is reminding me quite a bit of the way John depicts the Kingdom of God vs. the empires of this world. For the last couple of months, the picture of Revelation 5 (the slain, little Lamb at the center of the Throne, angels, and creatures) has been stuck in my mind, and I can’t shake it. Much of what is called Christianity today seems to be deeply entrenched in the ways of the Dragon, the ways of coercion, power, and oppression. And I grieve that deeply. But there is hope yet! For the Lamb has already conquered by His death, and there is always a remanent. The Lamb displays His power by death, by sacrificial love, and I pray that I will be brave enough to follow Him wherever He goes.
Gabby,
Exactly!
J.E.D. @ 11:10
Some great good for thought ! ! !
I just put my 12 acres up here in the mountains up for sale. – full price offer first day. Now we’ll see if they follow through with no hitches. It is a beautiful piece where my late husband and i thought we’d build a getaway some day, so i won’t stand for any whittling away of the terms… So far, it’s thank You, Lord!
All this while a surgeon is cutting away more of my nose My best feature is now full of stitches and covered in bandages. Hopefully the result won’t scare small children. Put that sunscreen on folks
God keep
Good word, Gabby. The Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world has already and will ultimately prevail. And we can trust that. We can trust Him. I pray the same, that my faith may not fail.
By grace, through faith/belief are we saved
Read that amazing Book and believe it
Oh Duane
I do reckon much of the mainline church to be simply secular versions of the Christian religion even as you consider evangelicalism to be nationalism.
Let’s just agree that the stain is universal – think we can be that Augustinian together.
BD
Never said otherwise…
BD. I’ve picked a random quote from the founding of Evangelicalism. Harold Ockenga at Fuller’s Commencement.
Here is a demonstration of “cultural engagement” as defined by the Neo-Evangelicals. It was a military term. It was a battle for the soul of the World. Meaning external, not internal change.
Seventy years pass and the embryonic beginning has evolved…I would say corrupted… just like the proceeding Fundamentalism. Where will the threat come from? The “Left?” Not really. Yes, in times past some social movements have threatened segments of the Church. If you where a devout worshiper sent to Siberia by the Bolsheviks, you would say the “Left” is a threat.
But for the rest of us, the threat is infiltration and corruption coming from the Right. Specifically, the Religious Right. That’s why some of us get our hair up, depending on who is spreading their influence.
..”…We who believe the Bible and the supernatural power of God instead of in reformation have disassociated ourselves from the program of social reform from the matters of lawlessness and of inebriation, and of crime and of war, and of rape, and other things. We believe that Jesus is coming with all our hearts. But we believe that Jesus told us to “occupy” till he comes. By the grace of God we don’t intend to default for the sake of the generations that are to come.”..
Evangelicals are vulnerable to someone coming along and saying…I can help you occupy.
Nathan
Lest I misunderstand to what end is that addressed to me?
Some of us just don’t get excited about the left, and whatever their doing look lately. It is a double standard. I will admit that.
Oops…they’re doing lately.
I haver no idea where this thread went…as soon as we hit the 1619 thing I got lost…
Nathan
Which means you don’t actually care about totalitarian oppression. Noted.
Michael
That was on Linkathon – the confusion is worse than you thought.
BD. I expect the World to be the World. On occasion the World can be dangerous. But I fear those who want a Kingdom on Earth. I now fear Evangelicalism. The Left doesn’t even get a nervous glance from me now.
Nathan, I agree completely. This morning I woke up to an announcement from a Facebook friend that a desert storm veterans group I’ve been involved in for years has been banned by Facebook. 28,000 veterans in this group. The reason Facebook gave was “violating community standards in relation to dangerous individuals or organizations. In the comment section, an individual posted “If you think January 6 was overthrowing the US government, you haven’t seen anything yet.” This is been coming for years. The admin’s tried valiantly to keep the extremists out, but obviously they failed. Not only is there no support group for me and my comrades any longer, but…. I fear more bloodshed is coming. And it’s not coming from the left.
From Michael Gerson, conservative and a Christian who hasn’t lost his mind.
Paragraph 3 is especially chilling. This is what I posted about the other day — if you demonize your opponents (in this case, Dems) you can literally lose your life. Ideologies kill.
“By a conservative standard, what should we make of the activists and participants at CPAC? It is worth noting that many who attend each year are young. What moral messages is an older generation transmitting to the next?
“With many of the sessions premised on the big lie of a stolen presidential election, young attendees will certainly be taught that truth is infinitely malleable in service to ideology.
“They will surely be instructed that their political opponents are really ruthless, inhuman enemies, bent on canceling and silencing them by any means necessary.”
By the systematic downplaying of the recent attack on the Capitol — and probably some wink-and-nudge approval — they will learn that the recourse to violence is permissible in politics, and that democracy is valuable only if it serves their ends.
From Trump’s deification they will learn that civility is for losers, that compassion is for suckers, that misogyny can be fun, that strength requires brutality and that racism makes for good politics.
They will learn that deadly incompetence, based on lies and lunacy and costing countless lives, means nothing. They will learn that the Constitution can be shredded in the pursuit of raw power and that populism must be rowdy enough and transgressive enough to break a few windows and kill a few policemen.”
Anyone see the picture of the golden statue of former President Donald Trump at the CPAC?
Make your own application.
1. I have a niece who is Asian-American. She has been getting ugly glances of late.
2. My sister and brother-in-law’s business in downtown Minneapolis has been closed indefinitely due to a pandemic and a riot.
3. I’ve personally seen some militia members here out and about in Georgia.
I take this personally when someone says “it’s all so-and-so’s fault”.
Dan,
I’m sorry to hear that about your family members.
The difficult part is that I’m almost giving up on trying to get anyone to come reason together…
Thanks Michael. My number 3 was meant to convey a sense of unease in this world. I certainly don’t feel safe when I see certain individuals out and about who I KNOW are packing more than enough metal and ammo for self-defense.
Michael, I agree…most people these day’s don’t want to give in to facts, or see things from another point of view, let alone have their beliefs challenged.
Dan,
There is much unease in this world.
As a child I grew up with guns everywhere…I think I got my first .22 when I was five.
My grandfather made it for me.
My grandfather melted his own lead and made his own ammo.
The thought of using one against the government was unheard of.
If I would have open carried into the local grocery store or cafe…somebody would have knocked me senseless for acting a fool.
I would have deserved it…
DFG,
The Golden Calf.
Repulsive
I think someone may have posted this on this site, somewhere
A strong piece from Chris Matthews about President Biden paying a visit to Bob Dole, who, sadly, is dying of throat cancer. It was kept off his public schedule.
A couple of good quotes:
“(The visit) struck me as just the kind of event to keep off the president’s public schedule. Why? Because it’s not about the usual public persona. It’s about something more. It’s the human kind that makes all the other possible. It’s the social cement that holds the bricks together. It’s the element in legislative power that has been under assault not just during Trump’s poisonous reign but under Newt Gingrich and others who turned rough politics into blood sport.
“…You’ll never read in the newspapers about the “gym dinner.” Yet it matters. I remember the night the first George Bush, a former House member from Houston back in the 60s, brought Ronald Reagan to one. He knew it was a way the new president could pay proper respect to the Congress, by showing up when there were no cameras, no way to take advantage except with where it was deserved by his coming.”
“This is the world Newt Gingrich tried to destroy in the 1990s. He decided this goodwill across party lines was killing Republican chances. Like Lenin, he decided his revolution required the politicization of personal life. Having risen to his Speakership attacking any effort to get things done as appeasement, and being the first C-SPAN demagogue,…”
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/02/25/to-stay-strong-against-any-white-house-congress-cant-be-at-war-with-itself/
What if we had known our collection of texts is not inerrant? What if we had known the apocalypse was not about our future? How, then, might the knife have slipped (Gal. 5:12) long ago upon what has sadly and dangerously developed into today’s radicalized Republicanism and fascigelicalism?
I get daily excoriated for talking politics as well as theology. The reason is clear for me. Life is ONE and meta narratives abound in culture, our faith is not a sacred space kept far from our lives. It is front and center. Political parties, ideologies, religions, and culture itself are all salvation narratives. They all have a view of man, the world, God or gods, justice/righteousness, end times/utopian state, on and on. American political parties are salvation narratives.
When we speak of humanity and what is wrong and how it may be set right and what is just and true we are talking theologically and it always has outcomes in the human playground – politic or as Duane wants to remind me when he hates what I say — THE CITY. Augustine did indeed pose a two tiered city of man and God he was after all rather platonic in his worldview. Of course he will instruct you better on that.
By the way THIS Is called OPEN blogging so I practice open posting.
Every issue raised here is about God and man, every issue is about salvation and damnation. I am the one who decried “earthly kingdoms” to open the thread. Our leaders whether they be religious or political are all trying to diagnose and save us. The Equality Act is a salvation document. We definitely ought to talk about such things and their outcome because we care about humanity. We want to be saved.
I come here and fight with the bent of this blog because you guys have found one major bogeyman. I have agreed with you about that bogeyman over and over. But as Priddis pointed out you don’t care about any other bogeymen — yes I caricature … end of conversation
But not… This is the one place left where I converse. Michael says we can do better all the time… we can .
Violence has been in our streets all summer and fall it abated some when CNN told the left to knock it off for the election. In January the right brought their own version to the capitol building. Violence is brewing in our nation. It is bi-polar. It is deadly. It will not make peace with half measures.
The kingdom of Christ calls us higher but it has not taken us out. We are all in this. I intend to keep contending but I may not as I have managed to be pushed from every public venue by the pain.
So …
Have any of you seen “Chernobyl” on HBO?
It shows a toxic culture of denial, lying, hiding and intimidation of (among other words that could be used) whistleblowers. Really just people speaking and seeking the truth.
Michael, there are so many points that would resonate with your; from so many of you P P regulars, I imagine it would for you as well.
And let’s not forget it the Marxists who did that, lest we think the forces pushing us towards Marxism are different.
For my left leaning friends who think this is too partisan, it’s not hard to look to W, Obama or Trump to find times when they hid the truth and/or got insular, surrounded by yes men and thus ignored the truth.
BD,
I advocate for your continued contention and presence.
As to our bogeymen…
I would give you a description of the life I lead, but it’s too tiring to even write.
I am not alone in having such a schedule.
I only have limited energy to care about external matters and rage is a luxury I can partake of as a diabetic sneaks an occasional cookie.
Thus, my focus has to be on a few specific things.
I can care a little about cultural follies, but am old enough to know they pass.
I remember that Time magazine once proclaimed the death of God and now God lives and Time still speaks, but no one hears it.
The church has always been my passion and I have fought for her for most of my adult life.
The church is what must be reformed, for in the church lies true salvation and the answers that we need to live.
Arguing about which political party is more vile is like debating which sort of cancer you prefer.
It is no secret that I also advocate for immigration reform…but after banging my head on that wall for years I am too aware that unless the love of God and neighbor is shred abroad in hearts it will never come.
This brings me back to the church…where I will stay for the most part.
Michael
The church; yes and her many infections about which we bloviate here
As I reread… I see it appeared I was talking of an exit… no that is not my plan. But it is the reality that I have left every other public outlet… so I could not boast of robustly being able to stay
I hope to increase my presence but only in salutary means… something useful, something recalcitrant like the space you have carved… somewhere to lament and cry out.
The 20th century scarred us all more than we know… fascists, communists, monsters of sea and land and we are all warning of their return.
BD,
Where does the pain come from?
“This latter contrast is indicative of the main difficulty many Christians have with eschatology. Many of us are so well installed in the present order that we look at its passing not with hope, but rather with dread. We are not among those who are to “stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is coming near,” but rather among those who “faint from fear and foreboding of what is coming upon the world.” We convince ourselves that the kingdom of Christian hope is a nice idea, but little more than a chimera. It is not rational. It is the expectation of a bygone age of superstition, still kept alive by ignorant people who should know better.
But perhaps our thinking on this matter is tainted by our own secret hope, which is no longer the hope for the new order, but rather the hope that the present will never pass away. And so, just as Augustine used to pray, “Give me chastity, but not just yet,” we pray, “Thy kingdom come,” and then silently add, “but not just yet.” It is precisely because of this that Jesus warns: “Be on guard so that your hearts are not weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of this life, and that day does not catch you unexpectedly, like a trap” (vv. 34–35)
Justo Gonzales in his commentary on Luke…
My take, for what it is worth, is that the eschaton is a present reality and not a distant hope. Every time we consecrate the bread and the wine, eternity breaks in to the present. (Yes, realized eschatology) If I believe that, it makes a difference in how I view the City of Man. I may live there, but my true citizenship is in the City of God. In the City of Man the most that I can hope for and pray for is the character of our leaders and that justice will be exercised. My task in this pilgrimage is not primarily the reordering of secular society, but rather to live a life, individually and corporately (as in the Church) that seeks to be an imitation of Christ and one that emulates the values expressed in the Gospels…
Duane,
I’m stealing the first two sentences for tonight’s study…thank you. 🙂
Michael
Why do we think that we are so unique? Theories of government, social change, etc. have been with us for 2,000 years… but now we spend out time and effort on theories and conspiracies that have precious little to do with the faith. I really do not get it…
Our realized eschatology and sacramental life puts us here, now incarnate in the world of humanity and for salutary purposes. Conspiracy theories have not had one minute of play in this blog but ideas, ideologies, and narratives are everywhere and we must engage them as surely as Christians have engaged, Judaizers, Gnostics, Arians, and every other form of idea that exalts itself in our midst.
BD.
That portion of my childhood that laid within Fundamentalism, taught me the importance of regular contact with those not like ourselves. Not only for educational purposes, but for safety, and not becoming freaking religiously insane. I think your comments are very valuable. I appreciate them.
Duane.
It’s strange how one can come from the lowest of low church, crossed with an interest of the quantum mechanics of reality, and come out saying an emphatic yes, to your list. A bifurcated reality, City of God, Citizenship, suffering in pilgrimage.
BD,
All those ideologies you mention affected core beliefs of the church.
I agree that those must be addressed, thus the constant drumbeat against Christian nationalism.
Persuade me that passing fads like CRT etc do the same…and if their impact could be mitigated by a simple proclamation of a Jesus untethered to party.
I may hear incorrectly.
What I hear is come out from sexual confusion, racial strife, etc, and come over to my political party that holds a correct view on these matters…instead of come out of these things to Jesus and his church…
I have noted that the new orthodoxy of the religious right demands such…and they have declared me a damnable heretic.
Michael,
CRT is indeed a kind of heresy that diagnoses the problem by grouping people into categories of oppressor and oppressed. It’s the spawn of Marxism and Marxism is a form of utopian heresy.
The best theological addressing of CRT or what he prefers to call simply identity politics is being done by Joshua Mitchel (a political theory professor from Georgetown and a self-described Augustinian) or as he told me personally, a theologian at heart.
He is doing a very credible job of assessing the current problem as one of stain and innocence in the absence of forgiveness.
As for the simple proclamation of the Gospel Mitchell is pretty clear that this identity politics is self-devouring. It villainizes the white male, and then the white female (as transgenderism has proven) and eventually must aim at the black heterosexual male. Mitchell believes the only short term hope of stemming this tide lies in the proclamation of a gospel of guilt and stain removed by Jesus specifically in the Black church and for the Black church to resist amelioration into grievance politics. Choosing Jesus over Marx.
Give him a listen or a read. He is another lifelong classical liberal and Tocqueville scholar probably the most riveting voice I have heard
He is offering a legitimate theological remedy for this clear and present danger. I have been poorly echoing what I learn from him and others.
Make no mistake I see the current moment as theological. Trumpism is a demonic response. I know that.
BD,
I will look him up.
My thought has been for years that all these ideologies are self devouring…thus, my concern is only about short term damage and long term consequences for a few.
“No common world can be built from identity politics. Its view of death divides those who can quarantine from those who cannot; its view of sin divides the irredeemably damned from the eternally pure and innocent. Americans will reject this madness when they have had their fill of a distorted religious vision masquerading as a redemptive politics. In politics there is no redemption, only unending labor.”
Joshua Mitchell
I agree… I’d rather expend my labor on that which is truly redemptive.
Michael,
Wow, that’s quite an observation from Gozalez.
It made me think of something Tom Friedman recently wrote.
He was contrasting the news about our landing on Mars with what just happened in Texas.
His salient point is, “We need to stop thinking only short-term. It’s leading to our ruin.
“We just sent a high-tech buggy named Perseverance loaded with cameras and scientific gear 292 million miles into space and landed it on the exact dot we were aiming for on Mars! Only in America!
“What’s going on? Well, in the case of Texas and Mars, the basic answers are simple. Texas is the poster child for what happens when you turn everything into politics — including science, Mother Nature and energy — and try to maximize short-term profits over long-term resilience in an era of extreme weather. The Mars landing is the poster child for letting science guide us and inspire audacious goals and the long-term investments to achieve them.
The Mars mind-set used to be more our norm. The Texas mind-set has replaced it in way too many cases. Going forward, if we want more Mars landings and fewer Texas collapses — what’s happening to people there is truly heartbreaking — we need to take a cold, hard look at what produced each.
The essence of Texas thinking was expressed by Gov. Greg Abbott in the first big interview he gave to explain why the state’s electricity grid failed during a record freeze. He told Fox News’s Sean Hannity: “This shows how the Green New Deal would be a deadly deal for the United States of America. … Our wind and our solar got shut down, and they were collectively more than 10 percent of our power grid, and that thrust Texas into a situation where it was lacking power on a statewide basis. … It just shows that fossil fuel is necessary.”
The combined dishonesty and boneheadedness of those few sentences was breathtaking. The truth? Texas radically deregulated its energy market in ways that encouraged every producer to generate the most energy at the least cost with the least resilience — and to ignore the long-term trend toward more extreme weather.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/23/opinion/us-politics-texas-mars.html
I was also musing recently about sizzle vs. steak. In advertising, the maxim is that you sell the sizzle, not the steak.
Bit t seems like today, our culture has become so short-term and immediate. The sizzle has replaced the steak. But it was never meant to!
Bob 1,
Interesting that after reading your post, I am about to sizzle two Rib Eyes, marinated in Teriyaki and Pineapple sauce!
I just wanted to say that all of the above comments made for a very interesting read, and I wanted to thank all of the contributors for their words wisdom. I thank Michael for this blog that allows so many diverse voices to contend for The Faith! Your words give all of us much to think and pray about! God bless.
Late to the conversation….
“ I do reckon much of the mainline church to be simply secular versions of the Christian religion even as you consider evangelicalism to be nationalism”
Yep.
My friend who is a lifelong Anglican agrees…..
After moving about 3 weeks ago to a new state, tomorrow morning I am being welcomed into the fellowship of a new church. One of the things I looked for, based on some things I read here (especially from Xenia), was a congregation in my town, where I could worship and do church stuff in my local community. I don’t think I would have developed this viewpoint without the discussions we have had here over the years. They stick.
To some what I am doing may sound easy and convenient. But as a confessional Lutheran, there are not confessional Lutheran congregations in every community, and some folks travel substantial distances for church. In my case God has blessed me with a congregation in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, which shares the same confessional doctrines as my previous congregation, which was affiliated with the LCMS.
Tomorrow, I will have the opportunity to commune with my new congregation for the first time.
Jean, Congratulations on joining a new church, and for successfully completing your move! ( No small feat in the middle of a pandemic). We usually go to Wisconsin every year to visit my father and brother but we were not able to visit this past year because of the pandemic. My father, brother, and husband have all been vaccinated, but here in California you have to be over 65 to be vaccinated. My husband and I have remarked how much we miss our yearly visit to such a lovely state. Hopefully, I will get my shot soon and we can plan our visit to Wisconsin this summer!
Jean and BrideofChrist, a few times per year (sans Pandemic) my wife and I make the drive from Georgia to Minnesota. We drive into Wisconsin from Rockford…trough Janesville, to Madison, Camp Douglas and the Dells, and then through some very beautiful rolling hills to Eau Claire, then on to Hudson, WI and to the Twin Cities. I think that the drive through Wisconsin (we take, I believe I90 to I94) is incredibly beautiful and picturesque.
Dan, We’ve been to Eau Claire ( home of the American Pickers)! Very scenic river town. We brought out daughter and her new husband there to take the river boat trip from Eau Claire to Du’buque, Iowa. Good memories for us, and those memories keep us going through this Coivid nightmare.
Good to hear the report from Jean of God’s blessing. Too often, perhaps, we don’t stop and acknowledge His grace and mercies.
Trump is part of a building? On 24 inch centers?
sorry … kinda
okay erase my 9:33 – it was a response to a comment that is now gone….
I took it down
No time for nonsense.