Open Blogging
It’s all yours today…
There is an interesting article here where a proponent of universalism makes a brief case for that position.
I expected something more substantial…
It’s all yours today…
There is an interesting article here where a proponent of universalism makes a brief case for that position.
I expected something more substantial…
Good morning. I say that by faith.
I remember all of the uproar here about how Lake Elsinore Calvary Chapel was shirking their financial and assisting responsibility to John Duncan (aka Dead Man Walking) and his paraplegic wife.
Then I recently read the REAL story about just how generous that church was and is toward John & Debbie. Made me shake my head in disbelief and realize that there are usually two sides to every story.
Pastor Steve Wright, the board of directors and the members of Calvary Chapel Lake Elsinore went way up on the integrity chart in my eyes. How Steve Wright sat here and took it all that time says something about him.
The universalism link was informative. One issue I was hoping would be addressed is the depth of God’s suffering when His Son was being tortured and killed and taking on all sin on himself in judgement compared to the cumulative suffering of all mankind for eternity. This is my only reason for not being convinced of universalism. Do we have a clue how much sin actually hurt God? I think it’s one of those of those issues that we have to read between the lines in scripture cuz to discover if I was God I certainly wouldn’t talk about it.
Oops. Typo. Should read “I think it’s one of those issues that we have to read between the lines in scripture to discover cuz if I was God I certainly wouldn’t talk about it.”
My confuter must still be asleep.
Aw man, I thought that link was about the “Universal Heartthrob” Austin Idol
I don’t know if he is famous anywhere outside of the wrestling circuit in Memphis, but Jackie Fargo died last week.
Here’s an article that might interest some of you. It’s about the “idea” of God vs the “true and living” God, the idea that Christianity is more than a set of beliefs but is a set of practices and how this all affects the life of the Christian in today’s world, which is increasingly hostile to Christianity.
http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/07/01/the-god-who-is-no-god-2/
Xenia,
I read the article and I wish I could agree with it but I can’t cuz it’s not hundreds of years old. jk It’s a good article.
Yup Derek,
Jackie Fargo was a great draw in the northeast where he headlined Madison Sqaure Garden alongside Don Fargo as part of the tag team the “Fabulous Fargos”. He aslo helped create the great 80s tag team “The Fabulous Ones” made up of Steve Kiern and Stan Lane
TV wrestling is real.
I love watching TV wrestling. I always think it is funny when someone says “I don’t watch it because it is fake.”
So I say to them “so why do you go to the movies?” I mean people talk about jack Sparrow as if he is a real guy.
Jack Bauer is a real guy!!
He never has to sleep or go to the bathroom.
Jack Sparrow isn’t a real guy?
You’ve ruined my day now!
Jack Sparrow has now become Tonto!! 🙂
Well, Tonto is real – Sparrow, as fake as TV wrestling. 🙂
Xenia,
Thank you for that article. It was thought provoking.
Is it true that in the new movie The Lone Ranger says he wears a mask because he’s ashamed of his white heritage and is ashamed of how the white man has oppressed Indians?
The best argument for Universalism (in terms of Universal Reconciliation / Unilateral Forgiveness) is in the philosophical hashings out of what is the Nature of God? Is God the “good” Jesus Redeemer of the New Testament Gospels? The “forgive 70 times 7” Jesus? The Unilateral Forgiveness “forgive them for they know not what they do” Jesus? The Peace, Love, Mercy Jesus? Or is God something else.
Is the Law of Love and mercy pre-eminent? Or is Law and Justice and Wrath?
Some veyr interesting considerations for appeals to Revelation as proof text for “hell” and Judgment etc.
According to Revelation, does “everyone” get resurrected from the dead? Does everyone get a “glorified” body that lives on post man-carnate-physical death? Text says so…”great and small” and all of humankind throughout human history seems to be the context presented.
Then “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord”…again “every”
Now, does it seem like it squares with the Law of Love and the Goodness and Love and Mercy God of Jesus of the Gospels…to resurrect a person from the dead, bow their knee, confess their tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord and then torment them in a hell for ever and ever no end?
The other major issue to resolve: Who holds the power and who is pre-eminent? Who has the final say? Who really plays God? God or man?
If God is the “author and finisher” if God is pre-eminent to man, if God is truly Sovereign, truly omnipotent, truly omniscient, truly all powerful etc, then God is God and man is not and man is not the determining factor in the equation. It all boils down to God and his will.
As such, it leaves us with two options:
God picks winners and losers (hyper-calvinism / determinism)
Or
God reconciles/redeems the whole of his creation and makes all things right with or without man’s cooperation
I used to think the duality, paradox and contradiction was error, I know see it as human expression of the holy spirit working through imperfect mediums to express pieces and parts of Truth.
I think the God Narrative as being pre-eminent to man is a solid Truth. If God exists, if God “is” he is pre-eminent to man, he is superior to man, he is the “author”, the uncaused cause.
Then it boils down to the questions is God truly “good”? Is he truly omnipotent? Is he truly Sovereign?
If he is, then Love wins.
If he is not truly good and not truly sovereign, then we get a variety of options, none of them very good at all.
What about the suffering of God? How much is Jesus’ passion, death, and separation from His Father worth?
Personally, I’ve grown to have a more optimistic view/belief of God (if he truly exists).
I see him as Good, Loving, Merciful and a being who forgive Unilaterally and that his “justice” is not “an eye for an eye” like man’s justice.
I think those who view a god of hell and wrath and judgment ignore the God of Jesus in the Gospels and have a very man-like view of god.
My wife and I watched a Dateline rerun last night about a story from PA that happened in a Lutheran Church. An older single woman who was a member that had become delusional killed a fellow woman member right in the church office when no one else was around. Has anyone else seen this? I hadn’t.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29267233/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/test-faith-killing-shocks-congregation/#.Udhn1Tu1HIc
If you are a “red letter Christian” universalism is completely untenable.
Jesus spoke more of eternal punishment than any other figure in the Bible.
At best Jesus spoke of punishment, but not necessarily “eternal” in the sense that you seem to present it.
Here’s the definition of aiónios: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.
It’s like “God hates!” vs. “God loves!” it’s a contrast.
At best, Jesus is stating there’s some sort of punishment for an “age” some sort of recompense or corrective action.
There is an unbiblical reductionism at play when we reduce all the attributes of God to “love”.
He is also “holy”, “just”, righteous” and a host of other things in perfection.
None of His attributes trumps another…they are all in perfect balance.
Michael, do you agree there is a hierarchy of his attributes presented?
Isn’t “Love” presented as the “Greatest Command”? They aren’t in “perfect balance” that is extra-biblical if you are a pressupossionalist.
1 Corinthians 13 pretty much establishes “Love” as the pre-eminent quality/attribute of God as prescribed to us.
Are we as humans held to a higher Standard than God himself?
RB,
You are making a categorical error.
The fact that the greatest command is love doesn’t negate the balance of the attributes of God.
I hold the entirety of the Bible to be the word of God.
The most frequent attribute mentioned in the older testament is “holiness”, by a long shot.
RB,
The focus of this age is the cross of Christ and His finished work on it.
These are the “latter days” when the kingdom has arrived and is coming to fullness.
The message is of being reconciled to God based on that work and the reason given for that work is the love of God.
The Bible is clear that at the end of this age that not only God’s love will be made manifest, but also His justice, righteousness, and holiness.
God will be God in all His fullness and glory.
I will also note that I find the arguments for annihilationism biblically compelling.
Where is the verse that states this? “None of His attributes trumps another…they are all in perfect balance.”
and, you said:
“The most frequent attribute mentioned in the older testament is “holiness”, by a long shot.”
We’re not Jews, we’re not Hebrews, the Jews god was much different than God as Jesus who showed up, which is why they rejected him.
The major theme of the New Testament and of Jesus himself is Love, Forgiveness, Unilateral Forgiveness, Mercy, Redemption, Grace, etc.
Xenia,
Awesome article!
RB,
I believe the God of the OT is Trinitarian and there is no conflict within the Trinity.
The OT points to the coming of the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of the world…Jesus is the fulfillment of all those promises.
Michael said, ““The most frequent attribute mentioned in the older testament is “holiness”, by a long shot.””
Using this logic, then the fact Jesus mentions “homosexuality” zero times says what?
God is holy, OK.
How does God’s being holy make it OK for him to torment folks in hell for eternity? I think God’s holiness demands he forgives unilaterally as we are commanded to do by Jesus in the New Testament.
The message of the NT is the love of God poured forth on the cross and that message is or should be central to all we say and do.
As the book of Hebrews states we have entered into a better covenant with a single sacrifice having been made.
That doesn’t negate what the OT tells us of the attributes of God…it informs us of what the plan was from the beginning.
Michael, am I (me, a man, a human) “Holy” if I don’t Unilaterally Forgive? If I commit “Wrath”, if I commit “Vengeance”, if I render evil for evil? If I don’t extend Mercy?
How is it that I would be considered “Not Holy” if I do the above, but somehow God is still “Holy” and the OT god and your god exacts Wrath, Judgment, Vengeance etc?
Why am I held to a different Standard of Holiness than God himself?
God is God and whatever He does is good.
He defines what good is.
Whether God demands unilateral forgiveness from us is a very debatable question…and how it became a meme here is a great mystery to me.
God demands we forgive…and that forgiveness is as much for our sake as the offender.
There are lots of Scriptures that appear to place a need for repentance before forgiveness and others that demonstrate what you guys keep calling unilateral forgiveness.
“Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord”
Is Vengeance “Holy”? Are we to exact vengeance? Are we “holy” if we exact “vengeance”?
…yet a god of “vengeance” is Holy?
The bible defines vengeance as “unholy” except when God does it?
RB,
To me this is a question of what took place at the cross…the atonement.
Contrary to popular belief I agree with Calvin… that Christ died for all men and reconciliation with God has been provided for all.
However that atonement must be applied through faith…or the wrath of God will be justly placed on that sinner at the final judgment.
Is there any way to fathom the hurt of a God who allows His only Son to be insulted, beaten, desecrated, tortured, killed naked on a tree for all to see, by the very beings He created? To be separated in the truest sense for what may have actually been an eternity for the Father? Jesus did it for the joy set before Him. To have an ongoing ever improving relationship with us, His masterpiece. He freely gives. So, what of those who reject that?
God says “Come to my party!” What? “No!”?
RB,
If God exacts vengeance, then He will do so because of and in a way that is in accord with His other attributes.
Us… not so much…
SolRod #9
Yeah, I remember when Stone Cold was “Stunning Steve Austin”.
Great article, Xenia!
I am happy so many of you took the time to read the article I linked to!
the argument that frequency indicates importance would then indicate the most important words in the English language are “a” “the” “it” “and” and “I.” 😉
Universalism is one of those things that would have been overtly taught in the scriptures if it were true. It is a doctrine that makes most of the scripture incoherent and makes the lives of the apostles irrational. The doctrine if true makes Paul a raving lunatic. Remember the old LORD LIAR LUNATIC schematic about Jesus? Well universalism makes Paul look like guy who could stop lots of suffering and persecution just by appealing to people to chill a little. “Wait guys, you don’t understand, all I am saying is that Jesus is going to accomplish your salvation without any help or even visible response on your part.”
I mean the doctrine is just a prequel to Oprah.
Seriously, someone will say “NO, I mean Christian Universalism not that unitarian stuff.” And then they will take the lashes as a prelude to death just so they can win the point?
Christian universalism is just a bunch of liberal christians trying to out-nice the world.
It is silly and it is based on tortured exegesis… which would of course be a logical replacement to being tortured for Jesus.
This is a bunch of people’s way of apologizing for the bullying preaching of years of hellfire and damnation. Go for it…
I would prefer to just get the Gospel Wright…
N T Dread
BD,
I wish you would be clearer and more forthright in your opinions… 🙂
Remember how the resurrection of Jesus and the outpouring of the Spirit turned the disciples from sniveling cowards to flaming evangelists. Remember how it made them fearless and willing to die? Universalism turns them into professors with pencil necks and thin ties and gibberish to cover their waffling. Universalism is repugnant and mocks the martyrs.
The book of Revelation would be very different if Paul went to Patmos and had visions of universal redemption. He could have written bedtime story instead of an apocalypse. Universalism puts the church to sleep, silences prophets without a sword and mutes the Gospel.
Far from being a high view of Christology it is simply election on steroids… God the indulgent parent that lets the kids do as they wish. A co-dependant creator salving his reputation before the cranky creatures.
Wow! ^^^^^^This!
RB,
don’t bother trying to argue with or convince Michael of anything he doesn’t want to consider. he doesn’t have the intellectual ‘chops’ or integrity to enter into an honest discussion that might lead to him admitting he’s wrong or mistake. for exaple, ask Laurie about how that worked out for her last time that.
Michael: ‘God is God and whatever He does is good”. What total twaddle. It assumes that what HE thinks God does is ACTUALLY what God does and it reduces God to an Amoral person who’s actions are Moral simply because it’s Him that does them. What total nonthinking and unbiblical nonsense. But par for the course for a Theistic Determinist (Calvinist or Mohammedan, take your pick).
ps. Michael, i’ll be surprised if you don’t block this.
-mike
m&b,
This is the last post of yours I’ll let through and I’m doing so to show once again why you’re banned from here.
It begins and ends with insults…with shots taken at my intelligence and integrity.
It ends by comparing Reformed theology with Islam.
There is no attempt at Christian fellowship or dialog, just a desire to wound.
This is not public property and I’m under no obligation to allow someone to come here simply to insult and demean me.
How this measures up to any standard of Christian behavior is beyond me.
Dread said, “Universalism is one of those things that would have been overtly taught in the scriptures if it were true.”
The Trinity is not even mentioned specifically in the bible, yet the word is bantered around as if it’s in the text. It’s an extrabiblical word and construct relying on man’s reason to make sense of the competing verses. We assume “Trinity” because it makes sense to some of us, but it’s not specifically in the text.
Likewise, Universal Reconciliation and Unilateral Forgiveness…only both seem to be specifically mentioned in the sacred texts as the Yin to the Yang of the Wrath, Justice, Hell narratives.
RB,
We formulate the doctrine of the Trinity from the biblical witness.
The biblical witness not only doesn’t support universalism, it directly contradicts it.
““When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””
(Matthew 25:31–46 ESV)
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
We have a few universalists on the blog.
Without exception, I love each one of them.
I understand why this doctrine is very attractive to some…people usually come to this position with large hearts and good motives.
I believe it is an error, maybe even a serious error…but I believe God understands those hearts far better than I do.
I will argue for my case, but I won’t damn anyone who disagrees.
Michael, was the Good Samaritan “righteous”?
“what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”
“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
Seems a proof of another form of Universalism in the text….be a “good neighbor” and you have eternal life.
This is the problem with appealing to the errant, fallible bible as the end-all be-all for the Truth.
It presents a lot of contradictory things, competing narratives and mixed messages.
RB,
I’m not sure how this passage relates to the topic at hand.
Jesus is demonstrating to the “expert in the law” who “wanted to justify himself” how broad and demanding the law actually was.
Michael,
shallow, insecure, prideful, arrogant and dishonest… you are all these things an more. it is YOUR unchristian behavior being that I and others have attempted to show you. rather than do the manly and humble thing by owning your own behavior, you have chosen to ban those you don’t want to hear and then mischaracterize them to the ‘home team’ without the ability to be held to account for falsely portraying them.
yeah, you’re right. it’s your blog and I’ve never ‘demanded’ to participate as you claim. I’ve attempted to show the double standard and dishonest nature with which you apply your ‘disciplinary’ moderation/banning. many of your fav’s that enjoy your ‘censoring’ protection and defenses are far worse offenders with name calling, insults, and personal attacks and you know it. so don’t pretend that you banned me for those reasons… it’s just not the case.
oh, I forgot… childish. you’d make a great CC Senior Pastor.
-mike
The problem here is that (as this parable shows) it is impossible for man to fulfill the law perfectly.
The “Good Samaritan” was an example of how the “expert” had failed to grasp the depth of the Law and it’s spirit.
m&b,
I gave you a last word.
Goodbye.
No, the text speaks for itself and presents a “Good Neighbor” salvation from Jesus’s own mouth (supposedly). It illustrates what I mentioned above and is another clear indication that appealing to the text is not the Presuppositionalist absolute that is presented. The text has competing narratives.
Salvation through being a Good Neighbor, Salvation through Good Works, Salvation through Faith Alone, etc. All competing Narratives in the text.
This is why we have to go outside the text and examine the bigger picture and ask the questions:
If God is real, who is God? What would a perfect God be like?
The Jesus Narrative is the closes thing we have to being a “Good” God.
Again, if God is truly Good, truly Loving, truly Merciful, truly all-powerful, truly Sovereign, truly the author and finisher and all the good things presented in the many texts, then God must be merciful and unilaterally forgiving and able to redeem his creation.
Any other god who is capable of such is not “good” and not “holy” or “sovereign” or “all powerful” or we are forced to re-examine the universally accepted meanings of those words.
RB,
From the mouth of Jesus He says that IF you do those two things you will live.
Those two things are impossible for sinful men to do…
“For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.”
(James 2:10–11 ESV)
If men could fulfill the law, then there would have been no need for a Savior.
The parable was to highlight the fact that the hated Samaritan was closer to the heart of God than the “law abiding” Pharisee.
Here’s what I know beyond a reasonable doubt:
God “is”
I am not God.
Jesus Christ is Messiah, Savior, Redeemer
I used to think “salvation is through faith and belief in him”…I still do, I think there is “salvation” in Jesus in this life…I think there is “salvation” in being a “good neighbor” and I think there is “salvation” through “faith” and in “good works” etc (bible says all those save a person in one form or another, no?)
….I have changed my opinion that if you miss the deadline in this life, you will bow your knee and confess in the next life and God will redeem his creation despite the competing narratives presented in the fallible text.
Why does Salvation have a deadline? (pardon the pun).
A person croaks, their body stays in the ground until the resurrection at Judgment (or so we assume)…their spirit goes where? Dunno. But they are supposedly “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”…OK, maybe. So there they are, if there’s truth to the after-life, standing (without a body) before God….now they know.
“Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord”…says “every”.
OK, if this is true, then they can’t be saved b/c they didn’t do it before physical death? Yet, they bow and confess and I’m sure want mercy at that point rather than eternal damnation or whatever.
A “Loving” “Merciful” all-powerful God can’t “repent’ like he did in the OT narrative and change his mind and redeem them?
Michael said, “From the mouth of Jesus He says that IF you do those two things you will live.
Those two things are impossible for sinful men to do…”
Then Michael said, “If men could fulfill the law, then there would have been no need for a Savior.”
Exactly. Men can’t do it. Most of humanity never heard the “correct Gospel” and the “correct Jesus”.
The vast majority of humanity has no chance of salvation if your position is correct.
That is not a “good” and “loving” God…it’s a god, but it’s not the Jesus of the Gospels.
I have to run for awhile…
In other words, if the calvinist god is real…meaning truly Sovereign…then he either picks winners and losers (which isn’t good or loving)
Or, he redeems the whole mess in the end.
Judean resentment of Samaritans in the larger narrative is critical to interpreting the parable. The answer the parable provides to “and who is my neighbor” is “Who do you think you have every legitimate reason to hate, to see fail or see God punish for doctrinal and moral evil? THAT person is your neighbor and if you even ask the question `and who is my neighbor?’ you’re on thin ice.”
The expert knew what the law said but wanted to justify himself as having fulfilled it all when he hadn’t. The author of Luke provides the big clue with “but he, wanting to justify himself … .”
RB,
The fact that Jesus had to tell the story in a parable should tell you something. This is where you have non existent hermeneutical skills.
If what Jesus was talking about was actually possible, why didn’t he point to his good friend Fred and say, “look, this is what my friend Fred did…”?
You need to look through the lens of the proper distinction between Law & Gospel. Whenever Jesus tell us ‘what we should be doing’ he is just tightening done the screws on us to realize that we cannot do it – and that we need to look to how we can overcome that… which is through repentance, forgiveness and looking to the promises of Jesus.
RB isn’t an honest seeker for truth – he is a deconstructionist with the sole objective to make others doubt. You can see it in his terminology – “if the calvinist god is real…” What, you think the Calvinists have a different God?
RB, like his predecessor reminds me of the lesbian woman I listen to on the radio who said something to the effect of “look, we are glad that the Supreme Court gave us the right to marry, but if we were honest we should be telling the world ‘it isn’t equal marriage we want – we want to abolish marriage altogether'”
Guess who I thought of when I heard that? 🙂
Andrew, was wondering where and why you were no longer posting. Glad to see you found a place where believing in the basic essential of christianity (that is, fundamental – not necessarily fundalmentalist) is not confused with the those things practice by everyone that does not give or bring honor and glory to our risen Savior, Lord, King, High Priest and Almighty God.
Andy, like the way you worked that out—reminds of the tower of Babel.
Here are a few verses that reflect a triune God. Can anyone think of some more.
1 John, ch. 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Isaiah ch. 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”‘
Matthew ch.28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit–
John ch. 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Is Jesus called the Alpha and Omega in Revelation ch. 1:8?
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Does Mark ch.12:36 support the Trinity Doctrine?
David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “`The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”
Was Jesus inferring he was God when the Jews said he was making himself equal with God in John ch. 5:18-19?
18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Does the word “us” in Genesis 1:26 mean that God consists of plural persons as the Trinity Doctrine teaches?
Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness
Also, just a note on God being a loving God. In my mind, it would be most unloving to permit darkness to enter into that which has been set aside and promised to that which is the Light and that dwells in the Light. Being so, He is most loving and most righteous in separating out the two and doing it in such a way that wide is the gate that lead to destruction and narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life with Him. His way is simple, but without true repentance, there is no hope for those who clings to making Him into their own image.
MLD,
No more personal attacks.
I’m tired of the constant strife.
The question is can we answer RB and others?
Here are 2 other verses that show Jesus is God and the trinity:
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Correction:
I meant you, Gary—I don’t know why I said “Andy.” LOL 🙂
Maybe cuz in print I look just like Andy. *Not sayin’ which Andy*
Michael,
Where is the ‘personal’ attack? If I call someone a deconstructionist, that’s a personal attack and not just a description of his position?
As to answering his questions – you can’t because his questions are on the level of “when did you stop beating your wife.”
Besides, I thought my #71 was a very good answer about the Good Samaritan.
Could you repost?
MLD,
It’s fine right up to the point where you impute motive.
I’ve had it with the constant back and forth animosity.
On the Triune God:
Does Titus ch. 3:4-6 support the Trinity Doctrine?
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior . . .
Isaiah ch. 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.
Philippians ch. 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Deuteronomy ch.6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Gary,
“Repost” are you speaking to me—if so, repost what?
Uriah,
If you’re referring to CCA I still post there.
What is #77 referring to?
No, I was speaking to Andrew.
Gary,
I believe Uriah was saying that the 2nd part of #73 that starts with Andy was actually aimed at you. Not the first part.
1 Jn 5:7 in the KJV is at odds with other versions.
Ok, Derek. What did I work out?
In # 73, the first paragraph was to Andrew.
The tower of Babel was for you. Sorry about the confusion.
Are you offering me the tower of Babel? Where would I put it?
RB is indeed a truth seeker and I will vouch for him and his journey.
Sorry, RB, my endorsement is probably the last thing anyone here would want, but you’ve got my vote.
#89
Sorry, don’t know what you worked out, half the time don’t know what I worked out 🙂
Only Uriah can answer that.
*sings* We can work it out…
Gary,
Yes, I know this. Like a lot scriptures, later translations left out a word here or there which unfortunately did not come across as clear as the KJV, particularly on this issue.
“Try to see it my way,
Only time will tell if I am right or you are wrong…”
Some say the KJV is the one who added it. Not sure.
“While we see it your way,
there’s a chance that you may fall apart before too long.”
When do I get my tower? No cod’s please.
RB,
The question about the fate of those who have never heard the Gospel is a good one and one not easily answered.
I lean toward an idea that natural revelation is given for those who never hear the Gospel and the elect respond to it.
Uriah,
I’m at a loss about you’re referring to.
What if I end up singing old Beatle tunes?
cuz I’ve been in prayer before and I found that prayer is more than just folding hands…
Gary,
Of course we can work it out—-
What I was referring to was the way each line was set that went from being short to very long:
One, Two, Three,
Shut the Door, or I
will let all the flies
come in and that hot apple pie
I made this morning will be invest with
these critters because they just love the sugar
and unless you like flies with pie, then I suggest you
hear what I saying, as it is the only pie that I am going make
for the rest of this month. So if you understand that failure to
heed my words, then I guess you not only have pie in your face, you ail
incur the wrath of flies turning into maggots when your stomach rots in u
In listening to you prose, and then looking at the shape–it reminded of the tower of Babel and how humans will seek ways to find God on their own terms and not on God’s terms. That’s all.
Wasn’t meant to be taken personally. Just really enjoyed the prose and the design and thought I would share what came to my mind.
Oh,
You mean my Star Warts analogy/parody. That was fun.
As far as the “Calvinist” god…
Any questions about the goodness of God in any of His actions toward men were answered at the cross.
If I were the one making choices about the eternal destiny of men there is an excellent chance of those choices being unloving and unjust in some way.
God has perfect knowledge and wisdom and is always loving and righteous…I trust His ability to choose.
I was trying to imitate the crawl at the beginning of Star Wars. Couldn’t figure out how to do it.
“The question about the fate of those who have never heard the Gospel is a good one and one not easily answered.”
I think it is an easy question to answer. Why then the imperative to go into all of the world and tell everyone the good news? If those who have not heard are in a good position just like those who have accepted Christ – then we are being cruel to go and tell.
No, the starting point is ‘world is lost’. The gospel is the solution to that. Those who have never heard in the end are in no worse position than that they started at – lost.
Not very politically correct – but heck, it’s the true answer.
As Gary said on another thread – if I was at his church, I would create chaos.
Gary,
Boy, for a moment I thought I had lost my mind—couldn’t find it on this thread, so thought maybe it was on CCA, but the remember it was on this blog under TGIF:
30.Gary says:
July 6, 2013 at 9:49 am .A long time ago in a fallacy far far away…
BLOG WARS
Episode TGIF
It is a period of
civil warts. Revelling
Newbies, striking from -baah-
a storefront church, have won
their first victory against the evil
orthodox religion’s liturgical edifice.
During the innocuous chanting, Rebel
spies managed to steal secret plans to
orthodoxy’s ultimate weapon; The Creeds,
an ancient text with enough power to destroy
an entire revival, wiping out whole flocks o’ sheep.
Pursued by orthodoxy’s sinister agents, the pastor’s wife
races to the mall aboard her minivan, custodian of the stolen
first century beliefs that can save her self-centered doctrine and
restore freedom of self determination, and Kool Aid to the storefront….
Do you like Star Wars or Star Trek better? Totally of the topic, but since it’s open blogging and you brought it up. 🙂
I like the innocence and machines of Star wars and the clever dialogue of Star Trek, even though a lot of it is plagerized.
TGIF as in Thank God I forgot.
I didn’t like the last Star Trek. It was baaaaad.
Michael and MLD
How do you view the following scriptures:
9.For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (Romans ch. 1:18-20)
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity. (Psalm ch.9:8)
Before the LORD; for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with equity. (Psalm ch. 98:9)
Gary,
I never could get into Star Trek—really like the Star Wars for same reasons as you mentioned. I think the last Star Trek was remade and then produced by Gene’s son. Plagarized—in what way?
uriah,
The first verse cited is where I would make a case for natural revelation perhaps being a tool God uses to call people to himself that haven’t heard the Gospel.
The other two are just verses that affirm a final judgment.
They use quotes from classic literature. Sometimes they quote directly, sometimes they tweak it.
Here are just a few stolen and mangled lines from Star Trek VI. It was the worst offender:
General Chang: “To be or not to be?” That is the question which preoccupies our people, Captain Kirk. We need breathing room.
Captain James T. Kirk: Earth, Hitler, 1938.
Captain Spock: Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
Chancellor Gorkon: You don’t trust me, do you? I don’t blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
Captain Spock: There is an old Vulcan proverb: only Nixon could go to China.
Commander Pavel Andreievich Chekov: Course heading, Captain?
Captain James T. Kirk: Second star to the right and straight on till morning.
General Chang: Can you see me? Oh, now be honest, Captain, warrior to warrior. You do prefer it this way, don’t you, as it was meant to be? No peace in our time. “Once more unto the breach, dear friends.”
General Chang: “I am constant as the northern star.”
Michael,
I concur. Throughout the ages, God has been revealing himself through his creation, through His people, and by His Word that has been handed down to us–first verbally, and now in scripture. For those who have never seen a Bible or heard of Jesus, God is not so small that He is not able to speak into the heart of a person, using many things to get their attention. If this was not so, then how was it that Abel made a righteous sacrifice, and how did Seth become a man of God. And didn’t Jesus descend into hell to set the captives free? God ways are not our way. He has and will continue to make a way for each person to come to Him, if they earnestly seek him. which reminds me of Jacob, the deceiver who wrestle all night with the Lord, not letting Him go until He revealed Himself to him.
Gary, I don’t think that using quotes in a movie is plagarism if it is referenced somewhere in credits. Hmm, would be interesting to know, though.
The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows forth His handiwork.
those are all judgment passages – not salvation.
Michael,
With this mind then, wouldn’t you agree that the old and new testaments are intimately weaved within the other, as Christ is with His church and all that He has created throughout the universe. That is is impossible to separate the old from the new testament as He is as much in one as He is in the other and that He has not change at all.
Come to think of it, neither have the mind of humans—even though we have had so much given to us, we still stumble over the same things that those in the former days did thus missing the very essence of what God was telling us since the days of Eden. Yet, we keep on hearing that voice in our ear—God didn’t really mean this.
MLD
Thanks—I think that is what was being discussed, isn’t it?
““The question about the fate of those who have never heard the Gospel is a good one and one not easily answered.”
Not sure why this has been ignored…. http://www.sbnation.com/2013/7/4/4493404/fourth-of-july-america-hot-dogs-fireworks?utm_source=sbnation&utm_medium=nextclicks&utm_campaign=articlebottom
MLD
“If those who have not heard are in a good position just like those who have accepted Christ – then we are being cruel to go and tell.
Was thinking about this. From the scriptures I quoted in that God is infinitely fair and all knowing, I don’t think the ticket is that you’re home free if you have never heard the gospel, rather it is that God will judge on the basis on a what the response was when He reach down to that person, in the innumerable ways that He has in doing this. How God speaks to each person who has not heard nor seen is beyond me, but I do know this, for years He was speaking directly to my heart, yet no one was coming alongside of me to tell me the good news. Nevertheless, it did lead me at times to cry out to Him or to meditate to consider that which was far beyond that which exceeded man’s wisdom, philosophical arguments, and historical writings. In my search and without knowing it, He led me to the truth, the way, and the life. I met my Lord on the way of seeking for that which I had not a clue what I was looking and wanting so much to escape that which seem to have no answers in resolving that which seemed to constantly, for me, to be futile in what it did offer to provide. I don’t know if this makes sense to you—hope you can hear the heart of it of what I am attempting to express.
People have to hear before they can respond.
God tells us to send people in order for people to hear..
Everything else is above our paygrade.
Send-Preach-Hear-Believe/Faith
_____________
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (Romans 10:12-17, ESV)
______________
I think people get fooled by the 2 verses you posted;
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity. (Psalm ch.9:8)
Before the LORD; for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with equity. (Psalm ch. 98:9)
I think people what to read these and think, God will be fair (with equity) to those who have not heard. But in the MLD version, it means that when God tosses those who have not heard into the lake of fire, and we think that is not fair – to God that id just and with equity.
“No, the starting point is ‘world is lost’. The gospel is the solution to that. Those who have never heard in the end are in no worse position than that they started at – lost.”
Sounds more Calvinistic than Lutheran. If I recall a similar discussion with you explaining the difference you said Calvinism starts with depravity where as Lutheranism starts with the grace of God. I’m not disagreeing with you but I find what you just said coming more from a Calvinistic position.
Derek,
Yes–absolutely and we are commissioned to tell others of the gospel.
MLD
In light of what Derek posted, what of those who have not heard? Would you not agree that the two scriptures that I posted would then fall into place here. For it does state, that no one is without excuse.
I think we forget about those who have never heard the gospel, as we do in this age. What of those prior to the Lord’s coming in the flesh? Wouldn’t God’s judgment also be fair if he did or he did not judge them to be condemned. For scripture tells us that He speaks to the heart of every person through various ways and although they may not have heard of Jesus—they have witnessed the creation and all that is inherent in this to cause them to meditate and to determine the state of presence of their own hearts and mind towards our Creator.
I agree with you when you say that people will think that God “will be fair” to those who have not heard. I supposed it would be helpful to define what we mean by “heard.” Heard what—the gospel, that many have not ever been told, either by the written word or by another person? I still hold to the verses, I posted. As not everyone in this world throughout the ages have heard or been told by these means. Nevertheless, God has made Himself known to each person through that which is of the conscience for we are made (men and women) in the image of God and we are able to reason these things out—if we are not so busy in pursuing or striving after those things that we know to bring such hurt and harm upon oneself and others. It is also innate in us to seek after that, which the hole in our heart longs for—-
Andrew,
God has provided a way of salvation to a people who do not deserve to be save. i would say that is being a very merciful God. It’s not a Calvin / Luther thing.
uriah,
I don’t think that God is compelled to save all people – whether they have heard or not.
Also, when God speaks through his creation such as the Romans passage – it is in judgment. The Romans passage says nothing about Jesus or salvation. Creation only tells people in an undeniable way that there is a God … but nothing about salvation and nothing about the character of God other that he exists, is powerful and mad.
Look, the people who sacrifice virgins by tossing them into volcanoes have it right … based on creation alone. But there is nothing in creation to tell them about Jesus and salvation except us – other created beings.
MLD
Please define “compelled.”
Hmmm, so up until Jesus came — all were condemned to hell?
Scripturally speaking, I would beg to disagree. I don’t think that people sacrifice their virgins because of what God was reflecting to them in His creation—I think that was just another way that some came to being able to arouse superstition, power, and fear into people. For scripture has told us from the beginning that God does and will reveal Himself to the human being. It is when we permit a narcissistic mindset to get in the way of our reasoning that we go off the beaten path and come up with up something that is more conveninet or fitting within our own image that gives us a false sense of control, power, and even of love that we miss the essence of who we are in Him instead.
All we need to do is look at Adam and Eve who did have direct access and then look at Seth whom parents had fallen out of grace, then fast forward to those God had chosen to blind to enable the rest of the world to be saved through the cross—but even then there are people who have lived and never heard the gospel and there are those who are living today who have not heard. From what I understand of scripture–God is just not that small that He is unable to reach into the hearts of people who have not heard or seen, but rather He is a mighty and awesome God that can do whatever He will within Who He is and is not bound by the any, other than Himself. God loves everyone, yet He will not be compromised or recreated by any, therefore, as Paul tells us, He is God, the whole creation groans and all will be judge according to His dictates. As for the great commission, we are told to “go.” Now, if we fail to “teach” or to “share,” is that on the person who did not hear when we could have told him or her—-no, not at all. God will judge those who were told and did not accept the gospel. But as for those who never heard or were never told—-they still are not without excuse as scripture has revealed. Can anyone think of any scriptures off hand that tells reminds us about what God has told us regarding those that are seeking the truth——of who He is. I believe it says something like, He will reveal himself to them, if they do it with a sincere and repentant heart—even before Jesus came in the flesh. Yes, He does have foreknowledge of whom these will be. He’s God. 🙂
http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2013/04/an-open-post-to-rev-sarah-halverson-of.html
uriah,
Sorry, I have one foot out the door to go to church.
“Hmmm, so up until Jesus came — all were condemned to hell? ”
Simple answer as I go? Regardless of what went on before Jesus came to the cross – he has now come in a different way and we are to respond to that.
If you are making a case that God has secret Christians around the globe who have not heard the gospel story through human means and that God speaks to them directly about Jesus, well…
gotta run.
Scripture tells: Romans, Chapter One
“18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
This is not just about judgement, but also covers all that God has done to reveal himself even before sending Jesus to live among us.
“22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man and birds and four-footed animals and creeping thins. 24. Therefore God also gave them (these that did these things) up to unleaness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishoor their bodies among themselves.
But there were some that did not do this and so in not doing them, they were able to see that God did exist and that they were not alone. For those that follow the dictates of the flesh, God permitted them to continue in their way—-becoming worse and worse-total reprobates per scripture. At least this is what my Bible reads.
It would seem to me that Paul is introducing to the reader the history of human affairs and their relationship with God. In the first chapter, it appears to me that he is making it plain, no one even without the gospel is exempted from knowing Him to the degree that He has revealed Himself to them.
Verse 17 “For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
David,
That’s a good article you cited. But it did not address the concern that people have towards those who do not hear the gospel at all.
MLD
”
“If you are making a case that God has secret Christians around the globe who have not heard the gospel story through human means and that God speaks to them directly about Jesus, well…”
Actually, this hasn’t occurred to me. But now that you mentioned it, I think it would be foolish to think every person has heard the gospel, if nothing else just by the mere fact that people are born every day. This would mean that in many parts or even in our neighborhoods, there are people who simply have not heard.
But I do know this, that when Jesus does reveal himself that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord.
So, even for those who knew God in part according what God has revealed to them, they will be judge accordingly. Until then, we are to do all that is possible to walk in obedience and to bare a good witness by what we speak and how we live among those we love and those whom whom do not know—or know Him. In this, I think the gospel is best delivered among those who have not heard or who follows another Jesus or after another god.
Personally, I believe to be an excuse not to walk in obedience to His Word by saying somehow that God is unfair or not a loving God or that the Old Testament God is different from the New Testament God because there will be some who have not receive the gospel who will be sent to hell.
David, in reading the linked article, it occurred to me that one day every person that has ever lived will be judged, but not before they all come to realize Jesus is Lord, the great and awesome, I Am. What they do with that, I suppose could be the deal breaker, huh.
Not sure why comment was placed in moderation. It is not my aim to be contentious or offensive—but keeping in line with what Michael asked us to do in getting answers to questions Alex has asked. Currently having to do with those who have not or do not ever hear the gospel message.
“Hmmm, so up until Jesus came — all were condemned to hell? ”
This is a legitimate question and one of the key objections to the good news. How this is delt with frames all discussions about God & any justice His followers speak of.
Sitting in a Calvary Chapel megachurch waiting for the festivities to begin.
For all the smack we talk about them here, they are lively fun wholesome places.
I’m no theological expert, and that should be noted as the greatest understatement in the history of PhxP. However, it has always been by belief that Jesus died for all sin, past, present, and future.
We know from Jesus’ act and example that the dead can be brought back to life. Resurrection of long dead saints is obviously not beyond God’s power. Perhaps those in history that never heard the gospel will also be resurrected after Jesus returns so that they can hear the good news and make their own decision.
There are other mysteries in the scriptures that we poor humans struggle to unravel. This is just another one. I’m certain that God’s plan includes all the earth and all those that live or ever lived. To think otherwise seems like limiting God’s power.
Rather than dominating the thread with a pile of posts to express my opinion in more detail, I offer this article that quotes both Michael and B.Dread:
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/will-the-real-god-please-stand-up/
Ricky Bobbing and weaving… vintage…
You can lead a horse to water, but….how does the rest of that go?
Since I can’t comment on RB’s #140 without Michael thinking I am making personal attacks, I think I will try this.
I was souring the internet and I came across an article by a known deconstructionist.
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/will-the-real-god-please-stand-up/
Now, in most cases a deconstructionist sets himself up as one who attempts, by methods to tear down the scriptures, to get others to doubt their faith – it is their sole motive. Now I can’t speak to this author’s motives – but his article is laughable.
For some reason, the author seems to indicate that Jesus Christ is a liar – when Jesus Christ said that the world was already condemned and that people in their continued unbelief would remain condemned, this author says No! no one will remain condemned.
Why would anyone claim to be a Christian and call Jesus Christ a liar?
You can tell Ricky Bobby that he isn’t paralyzed, but he will still stab himself in the leg.
For those that don’t know, that was a reference to Talladega Nights in which Ricky Bobby stabs himself in the leg.
Ever notice how reality TV shows always show the worst case examples out of life in this case prosperity teachers:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/07/05/preachers-of-l-a-brings-the-prosperity-gospel-to-reality-tv/
Here is an excerpt:
“The Bible says I wish above all things that you would prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers. I believe that,” declares Bishop Clarence McClendon, in the show’s trailer. When challenged about this prosperity gospel, McClendon replies, “there is no other kind of Gospel.”
Since this is open blogging I am gonna throw this link out there so people that like stuff like this can have a whole resource for cool stuff.
http://www.small-scale.net/yearofmud/2009/09/12/outdoor-cob-pizza-oven/
This link is on how to build an outdoor cob pizza oven, but the blog covers a lot of natural building techniques and just has some interesting stuff all around. If you are into leaving a small footprint and natural living then this is an excellent resource.
I think I may look into building this oven to begin with.
Now that I think about it, I bet I can use techniques learned there to build a pottery kiln.
MLD #143 says:
“I was souring the internet … ”
You’re too hard on yourself, friend. 🙂
Sorry, that was a malapropism too hard to resist going after.
No cob oven instructions, but I did learn a little about replacing timing belts on the Volvo V70 engine helping my son last night.
I guess I find it more interesting than the finer points of Calvinism and the usual prattle from Alex.
Plus, anything that you can make pizza and bread in has to be good. 🙂
Derek,
I’m thinking of taking a Raku class soon. Have you tried that before?
It’s not fair when threads are shut down because a single person continually makes everything about him. He needs to be gone. My opinion for what it’s worth….
I’ll reopen it if you want to comment on something, E.
No thanks Michael. I admire your patience. I ran out long ago.
A few verses that has been brought to my mind while reviewing the comments made regarding the love of the Lord, justice, and the essential tenets of Christianity.
Luke, chapter 18
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
On the way we should deal with those who hurt and despitefully use us. I think if anyone is being selective in the “fundamentalism” it is those who pick out this scripture or that scripture leaving out the whole counsel of scripture (of God). In my dissertation that I did in grad school, I had included the stats on how many people read and then also studied their Bibles. What I found was that 1% of all people who church actually read their Bibles and it was noted that this was while in some sort of Bible study given by the church they attended. Of this 1 %, the stats indicated that only 1% of this one percent who read their Bibles studied it. The point I am making here is, that is it no wonder that false teaching can permeate the church and tickle the ears of those who are babes in Christ, or those who are seeking, or even those who may be going through trying times, thus persuading them to believe in false Christ or belief system.
Romans, chapter 12
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; 11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; 12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; 13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
What I believe we are being told is that we ought not permit our hearts to fall into sin by being hateful and vindictive but to deal with people in a way that serves the body of Christ and to protect others from being harmed. As much as possible we are to live peaceably side by side with these, but in no way are we to indulge or enable them to continue to do harm. That is not being vindictive. This is simply putting a stop to such evil behaviors that this person may not want to cease from doing. Not all eveil behavior is punishable by man’s laws, but God’s laws are and He will recompense those who have been wronged.
So in dealing with such persons we are not to do evil in doing so, therefore, in the spirit of love, our judgment or discernment in how to judge these matters and to exact some type of discipline will be more in sync with what God’s heart is towards protecting this person from doing further harm and injury upon another. This is why church discipline is essential—however, it is not to be exercised in a spirit of enabling the wrong doing except for the purpose of compelling to turn away from continuing in their way and making restitution the person (s)has harmed. If they refused, then we are not to even eat with such a one. That’s not being vindictive, hateful, or unforgiving, That is loving them enought to say “NO,” you cannot behave like a evil doer and cause harm against me or my brother or sister in Christ. It is not condemning them, for that is upon God to decide.
Some people argument against scripture with men, but their battle is not with them, it is with the Lord, therefore:
Proverbs chapter 22:24
Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go:
Proverbs, chapter 29:22
An angry man stirreth up strife, and a furious man aboundeth in transgression.
Collosians, chapter 2
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Unless we have the Holy Spirit it is impoosible to understand the things of God, but will be constantly using the things of the world to make sense out of what God has shared throught the ages.
By the way, “things of the world” is not the same thing as when God speaks to us through His creation. One is of man and the other is of the Lord. The eye of one’s idolatry is upon creation rather than the eyes of being humbled with a broken and contrite heart is true worship, love, and fear of the Lord.
One other thought:
The captives who were brought out from under the bondage of slavery, out of the land of Egypt were then led into the desert. When someone or a group did not agree to having to abide or was experiencing some type of hardship, inconvenience, or affliction, what did they do? They would began to think and speak of how good it was in Egypt. They would use the reasoning and logic to try to get others to turn back or to even institute what they had been practicing in Egypt. Few know this, but the Hebrews were in a terrible state of debauchery by the time God pulled them out of there. So when going into the desert, the eyes of their heart was not set upon God, but rather upon themselves. It took 40 years to purge this from them, and even Moses didn’t make it because he misrepresented God to the people by striking at the rock in anger.
You would think that we would count our blessings, no matter how trite they may seem to be and that we would hold dear to us having the old testament to learn from so that we would not fall into the same temptations and traps that drove men away from God, rather than to Him.
But then again, how many are really reading their Bible and how many are picking and choosing while practicing the sin that separates them from truly knowing and fellowshipping with Him. How many sits back and listens to a teacher, but do not search the scriptures to see if those things being taught is true. How many shines the light upon the Bible from other resources, rather than shining the Light of God’s Word upon other resources. It’s all there—God didn’t miss a beat.
My fear is this. Our bible will be taken away from us, either by burning them or being totally rewritten to accommodate that ease the conscious, but preaches a different gospel entirely. Hopefully, by God’s mercy, He will see fit to bring me home before this time.
If our bibles were taken away or burnt, we would still have God.
Isn’t that the whole summary of each and every scripture story, that our God is greater, transcends any idol, including the idol we call “bible”?
Our God is greater, our God is stronger
God …higher than any other
Our God is Healer, awesome in power…
And if Our God is for us, then who could ever stop us
And if our God is with us, then what can stand against?
London,
I haven’t tried it yet, but I plan on it.
I am planning a workshop in which a wheel and kiln feature prominently. I am leaning towards building my own kiln.
I own a wonderful raku piece that my instructor made though.
157 Jo
It is true God will keep us. To grieve over the loss of His Word, either by destroying in the way that I’ve mentioned is not idolizing it, it is one way that God speaks to us. And that would be a great loss for everyone. That is, unless a person did believe in the Bible being the Word of God and if he or she didn’t, that is their choice.
Because one treasures the Word of God and hold it close to their hearts does not mean they are idolizing the Bible, any more than if they had received a bunch of love letters from someone who is no longer around. This is often an argument that is used to distract while negating and discrediting God’s Word. I don’t know you. I hope this is not what you are implying. To deny God’s Word or to lead someone away from it, I certainly would not want to be that person—not for a nanno second, thank you.
correction: “That is, unless a person did NOT believe in the Bible being the Word of God and if he or she didn’t, that is their choice.”
That’s the point, it’s not a collection of love letters from a long lost lover who is now rendered silent, it’s a small part of His presence in the lives of others, and His presence and personhood are greater than any such feared loss.
Sorry, I disagree with the geatest degree of urgency for you to reconsider as God’s Word provides us so much information, while leading, guiding, and directing us into understanding who He is and who we are in Him. it may be a small part of His presence in the lives of those you know, yet in my neck of the woods, it is what helps us to understand the world better and the heart of humans who choose not to cherish and to cling to His Words that He gave to us through these books put together and now called the Bible.
What I fear and what I am seeing more and more is a complete disrespect and intolerance for His Word and His people who believes upon what is written. For the sake of the true church of Christ, I am confident He will bring us home, but for those who involved themselves in such doings, woe unto them. Take heed, if this is the camp that you are involved.
THE BIBLE IS THE GREATEST LOVE STORY EVER GIVEN TO MANKIND. IT IS KEY TO KNOWING HIM AND MAKING HIM KNOWN TO OTHERS. BY LIVING ACCORDING TO HIS WILL AND BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WE CAN ABIDE IN HIM AND LOVE HIM AND OTHERS AS HE HAS LOVED US. WE NEED TO PROTECT IT, CHERISH IT AND PASS IT ON TO OTHERS AS IT IS WRITTEN TO ONE GENERATION TO THE NEXT.
Sorry you feel you need to shout.
God doesn’t need a book to be self sufficient, even His own book..
God doesn’t need a book to make Himself known to humanity, to sustain and complete each and every one of His beloved children..
He chose to disclose Himself, and people wrote down their experiences, but God will remain greater than His creations, His utterances, even His own history and the writings of those who follow Him.
Once this reality is embraced it allows us to depend on and trust God even if we have no written bible, just as believers throughout history have been challenged to do.
“God’s Word” is Jesus, The Logos, and Jesus is alive, transcendent, abiding. living, at least according to the writers of our Gospels.
Hmm, can see you don’t place much importance upon God’s Word given to us through His people—so are you saying that everything that everything in the books of the Bible is invalid because it was not communicated to them in a number of ways (Old Testament and New Testament)by God.
By the way, wasn’t shouting—I don’t shout—ever. But can understand that this is what you thought I was doing–so do apologize.
“Once this reality is embraced” meaning what that God does need this or that—-if so, then I would agree but that is not the point of Him communicating to us in this form, is it. It is not for His sake, but for ours due to our own limitations, not His.
If you do not believe in the Bible—please note, that is a Capital “B” on Bible, then it’s a waste of my time to discourse with you. You have made your decision, just as I have done. Oh, by the way, this is what I fear regarding the lost and destruction of the Bible will have upon others who are genuinely seeking to know Him, as can be found from Genesis through Revelations.
New Living Translation (©2007)
2 Timothy 4:1-4
King James Bible
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
How many times did Jesus say: “It is written.”
Correction: “is invalid because it was communicated to them in a number of ways (Old Testament and New Testament)by God.
uriah,
I think I understand what G is saying (which many times I don’t 😉 ) – you don’t have to idolize your bible (purposely little ‘b’ since you made a thing about CAPS B) to know or understand God.
I used to think that people who did not carry their own personal bible into church surely could not be christians. In the evangelical circles I traveled, your own personal bible was like your own personal ark of the covenant.
People pampered their bibles with special covers, pretty ribbons and highlited colors (like women do with their hair) along with little personal notes.
But then I went to a church where very few brought their own bibles – and they knew Jesus!!!
The world knew God, the world knew Jesus – long before they had bibles.
Thanks MLD, your rephrasing may help.
My initial comment regarding my fear towards possibility that the Bible would be destroyed either by burning them or rewriting them. It is still my concern and fear that this will and is happening today. There is a falling away going on right now, and the Bible is being severely attacked by those who would like to redefine God to suit their own conveniences.
Holding that which is of the Lord, given to people to know Him better, has nothing to do with worshipping or idolizing the Bible. It does have to do with having a deep reverence and respect for what God has given us to assist us in knowing Him even better. A depreciation, discrediting, destruction and or complete obliteration of it would be devastating and personally would break my heart, as I have seen what happens when people no longer have it to look into to gain a reminder of what He has done, what He has promised, and what We or Who we are in Him and all the millions of other nuggets and treasures that the Holy Spirit brings to our spirit to teach us and to keep us strong and walking in Him. I have seen how false teachings and wicked men and women have weaseled their way into drawing a person away from the truth, when they do not have their Bibles to search the scripturess to see if what they are being told is true.
It is true, many carry Bibles and do not know Jesus.
It is true, many do not carry Bibles and are Christians.
It is true that many carry Bibles and have study the Word, and are able to rightfully divide the Word of God.
It is true that many carry Bibles and decorate them or contain them in various types of jackets to protect them to keep them in good condition.
But to say that because one does these things, it is a form of idolotry is not true.
Nor is it idolotry to grieve the fact, or to fear for the possibility that the times are reflecting that more and more are seeking to destroy the Bible and all that it was meant to be for God’s people and those who genuinely seek to know Him and how to walk in obedience to Him.
MLD—-how do you know they did or did not know Jesus.
I understood what was stated as well. In all that was stated it appeared to me that the Bible was secondary to idolotry, rather than being of utmost importance in learning and growing in Christ.
You can take away every bible on the planet, it would in no way diminish the majesty of Jesus or His grasp upon His church.
What did the early church do for all those years without bibles?
They clung to the resurrected Jesus and depended upon The Holy Spirit.
That works for me, bible or no bible.
Jesus… Essential
bible… supplemental
uriah,
My point wasn’t about bible idolatry directly and it wasn’t that the “bible people” didn’t know Jesus.
It was that they did not think that people who did not carry their personal bible around could be Christians.
but I will say this – America probably has more bibles in print right now than in the first 19 centuries of the church and we are a biblically ignorant nation.
MLD
@ 10:13 pm: I agree. Stats reflects that 1% of people who attend church read there Bible and this is during their attendance in a Bible study or church service. Then 1% of that initial finding reflected that people read and studied the Bible apart from these activities.
As I mentioned before, its it any wonder that false teachings and people are not grounded in the word and able to defend the faith that is within them. Is it any wonder that when affliction, trial, and temptation comes along, they are drawn or even fall away from the faith (parable of the seed and ground (s).