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52 Responses

  1. Nonnie says:

    I want you all to know how much your prayers, sharing God’s promises, and good words for me and my family have meant to me the past 8 months, when we lost both of my parents and now my little new grandson born with a serious heart defect and facing years of surgery, unless the Lord heal miraculously.

    This community has been a comforting balm to me through those dark nights.

    I am also thankful that I have been able to participate in praying with and for others here..Sarah’s baby, Scott’s job, Michael’s job, Oden’s little boy, London’s backpacks….and so many others we have cried out to the Lord for and seen Him work in wondrous ways.

    I am thankful for learning so much from folks like Xenia, MLD and other “tribes.”
    This place is a place of grace and truth and is a sweet fragrance of Jesus.
    God bless you Michael and all the other moderators that work so hard to keep our connection open.
    No news on baby Bennet yet this AM. Waiting and praying.

  2. Does anyone else think that Christians protesting to have this billboard taken down is just wrong?

    Two points (1) it infringes on the free rights of the atheists to say what they want and how they want, and (2) if there had been no protests, probably 90% of the people who know about it, wouldn’t have – and wouldn’t be all upset.

    Sometimes I think that Christians are the measuring stick for stupid.

  3. MLD: “Sometimes I think that Christians are the measuring stick for stupid.” Unfortunate, but often true. We can’t have it both ways. We don’t want the atheist groups to force the removal of our billboards, our crosses, our nativities, etc., but let them put up something about what they believe, and the christians deficate a brick. Our warfare is not against flesh and blood. And what’s with the threats??!!! Republican-Christian terrorists?! Don’t get me wrong. I’m glad the billboards are coming down, but not for the reasons which they are coming down. How ’bout a billboard that simply says, “Jesus loves atheists too!”

  4. Well said, Nonnie. Waiting and praying with you.

  5. CK says:

    “…the lack of community…and I’d just blown up a pretty good one online.”

    Michael, it needed to be done. Every now and then, we all need a good retreat and regroup.

  6. Captain,
    “deficate a brick” – if I have one goal today it is to use that phrase in a sentence. I am going to a family affair today – perhaps I will use it more than once. 😉

  7. Reuben says:

    Mitt is a Mormon. This is a political stunt. I don’t have, nor can have a problem with it. It is after all the Religious Right who will claim freedom of speech and religion as a hill to die on.

    Christianity builds camps that tolerate only the like minded. “We have it all figured out over here…” says the ODM. “We are the only ones who faithfully teach the Word…” says any number of denominations. As long as you align yourself with the party line, you are in. Question, and you are out.

    A dying world sees 30,000+ versions of truth, and is it any wonder such things happen? Who can blame the atheist?

  8. erunner says:

    We have been having a difficult time finding a new church to attend. Last week we thought we’d check out a ‘smaller’ church we were made aware of. It turns out there were about 20 people for the Sunday morning service. So much for blending in!!

    The message was out of Romans and we enjoyed the teaching greatly. During announcements we learned tomorrow’s service was going to be the showing of the Kirk Cameron film Monumental

    Worship will be one song as the film is a bit long for a church service. The film is described above.

    We spoke with the pastor at length after last weeks service and he seems like a great guy. After the disappointment of the last church we were considering we’re just wanting to plug in somewhere.

    Maybe other churches show films for Sunday service but it’ssomething I’m not comfortable with especially as this film can be seen as political in nature. Part of me says this is another deal breaker. Another part of me says I can share my concerns with the pastor after tomorrow and continue to attend and see how things go.

    Belinda surprised me with being comfortable in such a tiny church and would like to give it a shot. Why is finding a church so darn difficult??

  9. erunner says:

    Nonnie, This hits home as we are new Grandparents (2.5 years) and they mean the world to us. I have prayed for your Grandchild and will seek to in the coming days. I’m sorry this is happening.

  10. Jtk says:

    So here’s my Saturday PP question:

    How many men of God/pastors have been falsely accused of something?

    I know we as a community have grieved over the lawless ministers who have gotten away with wrong, even crimes, certainly moral and financial improprieties….but I need to know the other side.

    A close relative, a Christian, made the claim that “accused ministers are always eventually found out to be guilty”–something neither the American system of justice nor the Bible (nor my conscience nor my personal experience) will bear.

    I read a great quote by Calvin I’ll have to find.

    I would REALLY appreciate the help!

  11. Jtk says:

    Calvin’s quote on accusation against pastors is halfway down

  12. All pastors are accused of being liars… by non believers.

  13. It has become one of my standard lines, along with “when the defication hits the oscillation.” Have I lost my salvation?

  14. Harvest Crusade? Meh. I’d rather support the arts so we’re headed to the Laguna Beach Sawdust Festival to visit some artists who are truly talented

    “In the early centuries of the faith you had to be catechized for three years to join the church…”

    Which is a really, really good idea!
    …so then, what is the state of the individual before being allowed to join the church, is that person “saved”, “a new creation in Christ” and the church is merely ratifying the family line and acculturating the bloke to the christian community?

    …and if there are doctrinal differences or the bloke simply hasn’t arrived at the conclusions that given church requires then is the bloke allowed to be part of the community anyhow? Is this a citizenship test? If a citizenship test, then is there any room for a spectrum of conservatives thru progressives?

  15. jlo says:

    if David Barton is involved in the movie, i would have a hard time believing what was being taught.

  16. erunner says:

    jlo, I looked this up already and saw he’s a big part of the movie. I read some negative stuff about him but not sure what to believe. Is he as bogus as some say? Oh man…….

  17. Reuben says:

    ( |o )====:::

    A person once said to me, “I am a liberal.” I asked why. “I have always been a liberal.” I asked why. “I have always believed that way.”

    These types of responses don’t work for anybody.

    The point of catechisms is to walk a believer through why you believe what you believe. As there are many catechisms/creeds/confessions, we work our way into one that we agree with, and stand behind it.

    It was not the problem of the thief on the cross to determine what creed he agreed with, or what doctrine of soteriology he defended. He had mere hours, and all he knew was Jesus.

    You and I have had years to explore the depths of God, and his Word.

    My failure was that I did not desire to explore the depths. When challenged by the likes of Packer, Grudem, Berkhof, I realized that there was no spine to my “theology”. This was, and is a good thing.

    In a different era, when pragmatic means were sensible, rather than “feeling” your way through the concept of God, you were required to wrestle your way through the scriptures. This was done to make you understand why you believe what you believe. If I do not agree with Article 3 of the 39 Articles, I can still be Anglican. However, I understand why, because I was forced into fighting my way through that particular Article.

    In my mind, knowing why is better than knowing what. There are too many Christians who are pew pigeons. They bob a coo at the great orations, but there is no depth, and this is made apparent by the perpetual failures of Christianity.

    In an analogy, the greatest architect in the world can build the worst functioning building in the world, if he does not consider the components required to make his ideal become functional reality. There are things to consider. Where do the elevators go? How are they incorporated into the design? What of the heat loads produced by the tens of thousands of square feet of southern facing windows? How do you cool such a building so that tenants will lease your space?

    The Church of yesteryear had a brilliant method by which people were grown into the faith. It was like requiring the architect to also be an engineer. The results were plain and obvious. People knew what they believed.

  18. erunner says:

    Just read publishers pulled his new book due to factual errors and it appears many conservatives are coming out against his ideas. This is not a new thing and yet this Kirk Cameron flick has gotten rave reviews from within the Evangelical community.

  19. Kevin H says:


    Here is another article on Barton. I think it is a pretty good take.

    I haven’t seen Kirk Cameron’s movie, but I was sad to see that he has apparently hitched himself to Barton as Barton has been shown to be an untrustworthy individual.

  20. Em says:

    trouble is some little old lady will hear you and ask just why you are dedicating bricks

  21. jlo says:

    E, my old church is a big fan of Bartons, I linked an article on FB about his book being pulled and was unfriended by several people, but had a really good discussion with others. From what I can gather he is quite a hack when it comes to history.

  22. Thanks Reuben!

  23. Now that I did it some years ago, I find it odd that people balk at being catechized. Think about it, how else do you know what that church believes unless they tell you. On the other hand, why would you want to be a member of a church, that hasn’t yet told you up front what they believe.

    And lastly, catechism is a 2 way street, it allows you time to tell the church who you are.

  24. The real issue is commitment. Those churches that do not formally catechized don’t care enough about the people sitting in the pew. Don’t ask questions, just sit in the pew and listen to my lecture.

    A pewster who balks at catechism, is just as non committal.Leave me alone, I’m just here for the lecture. I don’t want to have a formal membership, because I don’t want any phone calls.

    But that system does work.

  25. erunner says:

    Kevin, I just read your article and it confirms the things I have been reading. I have a problem with the pastor giving up the pulpit to show a movie and even am more dismayed that something like Cameron’s film would be shown.

    We’ve had such bad luck trying to find a church and last week was nice to hear good teaching. So I guess I’ll talk to the pastor and ask why he would forego worship and teaching for this. It’s frustrating.

    jlo, I’ll have to find your post on FB. Why on earth would believers unfriend you over this??!! I posted about a week ago stating that it’s wrong for Christians to be spreading lies about our President saying he is a Muslim. I don’t think anyone unfriended me though.

    I was telling our oldest son today when I first believed I accepted everything without question that came from the pulpit. Being excited about finding the truth in Christ it was never on my radar to consider a man in the pulpit would ever misrepresent Him in any way. Now it seems more necessary than ever to filer what we hear from everyone and that saddens me greatly.

  26. PP Veteran 2006-2011 says:

    The Self-Confrontation class is sort of a CC catechism. And sometimes there is a New Believers class too.

  27. DavidH says:

    For me, if David Barton is involved, I’m going to head the other way. For this man to call himself a historian merely sullies the reputation of real historians. I’ll be blunt, he is a fraud and charlatan.

  28. PP Vet,
    But no one requires you to go. btw, The Self Confrontation class is really just a form of brainwashing. It should have the sub title “How to voluntarily put yourself into bondage.”

  29. PP Veteran 2006-2011 says:

    Yes, catechism is optional at CCs. Which makes sense, since there is no membership. Really just leadership plus visitors. Or, pastor and his retinue, plus long- and short-term visitors.

    The SC class is in some cases mandatory for leadership (retinue).

    The key to the SC class is understanding that only by the grace of God and a breaking and the transformation of the Holy Spirit can one’s behavior change. Without that important clarification, which my CC pastor did make, yes, it is bondage. 

    In that light, I enjoyed the SC class.

  30. I own only one book by Barton. Fortunately, I picked it up at a yard sale for 50 cents and haven’t read it. Unfortunately, I think I was ripped off. Anybody wanna buy a book for a quarter?

  31. My favorite line from the Barton article: Sometimes the truest thing we can say is “I don’t know.”

  32. Captain Kevin says:

    Em 🙂

  33. Grrr… guess that’s what happens when I log in instead of just retyping the info every time. Oh well.

  34. OK, and the above comment was supposed to be a reply to my reply to Em’s reply to MLD’s reply to my comment at #5. (Try saying that 5 times fast)

  35. Anybody else having trouble with posting? Sometimes my comments show up in the wrong places, or not at all.

  36. Reuben says:

    CK, I have no idea why, but you keep getting tossed in the spam folder. I keep an eye on it every time I pass by.


  37. sarahkwolfe says:

    I’m hoping to be around more often as well. It’s been a busy weekend, and the coming week looks slightly daunting…I’m already declaring a catch up week for home school. Plus we have a field trip and tutorial begins this week.

    Am I whining? 🙂

    It is good to see this place back up…always good to know there is a place where you can poke your head in and have more of a conversation than FB would allow…

  38. puzzletop says:

    I”m glad you’re back.

  39. Paige says:

    Sometimes a fruitful tree needs severe pruning to bear more fruit…. sounds Biblical, doesn’t it? 🙂

  40. Paige says:

    Yes, indeed, it is so good to see this gathering here again. BTW, for years, I have mentioned how much we love our church and how bummed I was that pastor’s messages we not archived and available online….I guess my prayers have been answered. Church has a new website…. Hallelujah

  41. so, I’m hoping brian has discovered that PhoenixPreacher is back. if anyone has his email address please let him know that it’s at the .com.

    brain, if you’re lurking, please pop in and let us know you made the transition!

  42. I saw the billboard a couple of times on my way home from work, and while it didn’t upset me, I did think it was stupid. “Sadistic God. Useless Savior. 30,000 versions of the truth.”
    Is that supposed to be convincing or provocative? Doesn’t even make sense. And these are supposed to be the tolerant, “loving” ones? Geez.

    Scroll down to article #1274, “Why People Think Christians are Fake.”
    Made me glad for this place, where we don’t have to pretend.

  44. erunner says:

    Music this week on my blog is from the Jesus people era dating back to the early to mid 70’s. Some timeless music you just might enjoy!

  45. Lutheran says:


    You’ve made my day. Thanks for posting those songs.

    One of my all-time favorite Christian songs — and I’ve been listening and consuming since the late 60s — is Randy Stonehill’s King of Hearts.

  46. erunner says:

    Lutheran, I’m glad to read you enjoyed the song(s). That song by Randy is a favorite of mine as well. I’ve only been listening since ’76…. I feel so young! 🙂

  47. Kevin H says:


    I was born in ’76. Just sayin’. 🙂

  48. Reuben says:

    74 here, but I love Pink Floyd. The Piper at the Gates of Dawn was 68.

  49. Linnea says:

    Sarah, Paige, puzzletop, Guitar Man, Lutheran, and ebrother…SOOO glad to see you here 🙂

  50. Michael says:

    This thread is nine years old…Puzz passed away years ago…Paige hasn’t been seen in ages…Sarah just lost her mom…we’ve been blessed by the presence of good people…

  51. Linnea says:

    Oh Michael…so sorry. I didn’t know about Puzz. I was so sorry to hear about Sarah’s Mom. Yes, good people have fellowshipped here :). I’m having a hard time getting recent comments to show up in the feed. So sorry to have disrupted.

  52. Michael says:

    No apology necessary.
    It’s good to remember old friends…

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