Remembering Archbishop Desmond Tutu: Duane W.H. Arnold, PhD

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50 Responses

  1. josh hamrick says:

    Can you guess where I first heard of Tutu?

  2. Duane Arnold says:

    Josh

    Don’t leave us in suspense…😁

  3. bob1 says:

    Blessed be his memory.

    Blessed are the peacemakers.

  4. josh hamrick says:

    1988, Bono mentions him on the intro to Silver and Gold. When I was 14, if Bono gave you a shout out, you were beyond cool in my book 🙂

  5. Duane Arnold says:

    ‘Live Rattle and Hum’

    “Am I bugging you…Don’t mean to bug you…”

  6. Em says:

    To quote old Bob Hope, “Thank you, Dr. Duane, for those memories…”

  7. not a fan says:

    This is the man you are lauding? Maybe we should save our praise for someone who actually knows who Jesus is. “I cannot worship a homophobic God.” These were the words of Archbishop Desmond Tutu in Cape Town on Friday, declaring his support for the launch of an unprecedented UN campaign to protect gay rights.

    Tutu also said he would rather spend the afterlife in hell than go to a gay-hating heaven.

  8. josh hamrick says:

    not a fan – are we to assume you hope to go to a gay-hating heaven?

  9. Duane Arnold says:

    not a fan

    “Maybe we should save our praise for someone who actually knows who Jesus is…”

    Am I to assume that you are making that determination? For myself, it’s a bit beyond my pay grade…

  10. bob1 says:

    Wow.

    That didn’t take long

    I hope all the reactionaries on here have health insurance paid up, ’cause you’re doing a whole lot of knee jerking.

  11. Dread says:

    Did Tutu say just that? What did he actually say? Did he dictate to God the sort of heaven that he must have to gain the Bishop’s approval? It seems “not a fan” and the bishop would then both be exceeding present company’s pay grade. But … I would have to wait to see what those words actually were.

    These heavens that everyone imagines going to always become fodder for strange fire cannons. I always muse over the classic Phil Donahue question; “Do Jews go to heaven?” I always marveled at the inability to respond to such pedestrian queries.

    “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells”

    The riddle is solved … righteousness dwells there… and thereupon the riddle begins again… as we parse definitions…

    This is not the day to parse Tutu’s words… or his status. Though I imagine him to be safe…

  12. Em says:

    On another note….
    it is 1 degree up here, 4 quail just landed on a branch of the tree outside my window looking very confused….

    for naf… God doesn’t hate gays, He hates their lifestyle as that is not what He designed us for…. think, dear child, think! ! !

  13. bob1 says:

    Good thoughts, Dread.

    It’s in extremely poor taste to try and pin the life of Tutu with one thing he said, taken out of context or no.

    We can agree to disagree…without resorting to character assassination. Vile.

  14. Em says:

    Amen to bob1’12:05
    Amen indeed – pastor Dread always posts good ponders… IMNSHO!

  15. Em says:

    I just read that Bishop Tutu was a flaming anti-semite? ? ?

  16. bob1 says:

    Source? Highly unlikely. Would be much more interested in what Duane says.

  17. Dread says:

    Em,

    I am guessing but likely that means Tutu was a critic of the present realities on the ground in the state of Israel. likely he viewed it as the same type of apartheid that plagued South Africa.

    You get called names over nuanced viewpoints. Even if he was highly critical it does not make him antisemitic

  18. Em says:

    Source?
    Alan Derschowitz

  19. Michael says:

    Dread nailed it…

  20. Em says:

    Could be, Michael, could be… 🙆

  21. Duane Arnold says:

    Oh good grief… Fox news…

  22. Duane Arnold says:

    Haters have to hate…

  23. Em says:

    Fox news? No. Internet. 🙆

  24. bob1 says:

    Actually, it WAS Fox News where Dersh made his comments about Bishop Tutu.

    “Dershowitz uses his appearance on Fox to call Tutu a bigot”

    https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1475659342640648194?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

    What Duane said…

  25. bob1 says:

    “Desmond Tutu was exactly the radical moderate the world needed”

    The late archbishop of Cape Town, Desmond Tutu, was a trailblazer of the middle path. His life, which ended on Dec. 26 at age 90, disproved the idea that moderates are without principle — a calumny that always gains steam in times of polarization.

    As the highest-ranking representative of the Church of England in South Africa, Tutu was passionately and effectively committed to ending the white-supremacist system of apartheid — but to do so in a way that did not simply trade one kind of hatred for another.

    Tutu’s role as shepherd for the end of apartheid, for which he received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984, required independence from both the reactionary White government and the violent Marxist opposition.

    Like his fellow Christian ministers in the U.S. civil rights movement, Tutu’s moderation placed him under tremendous pressure from both extremes. As Tutu biographer Stephen Gish put it: “Hated by many white South Africans for being too radical, he was also scorned by many black militants for being too moderate.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/28/desmond-tutu-was-exactly-radical-moderate-world-needed/

    When extremists from all sides are firing at you, you’re probably right where you should be.

  26. Duane Arnold says:

    This is the article Tutu wrote for the Israeli paper Haaretz in 2014. His words speak for themselves…
    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/desmond-tutu-to-haaretz-this-is-my-plea-to-the-people-of-israel-1.10494007

  27. DH says:

    Tutu supported boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel (BDS) and many of those organizations are antisemitic and don’t believe Isreal has a right to exist.
    Criticizing Isreal doesn’t make you antsemitic but only criticizing Israel and leaving out the other players and complexities can or at the least show ignorance of the realities of the situation.
    — Not from Fox

  28. Duane Arnold says:

    “I have condemned those in Palestine responsible for firing missiles and rockets at Israel. They are fanning the flames of hatred. I am opposed to all manifestations of violence.

    But we must be very clear that the people of Palestine have every right to struggle for their dignity and freedom. It is a struggle that has the support of many around the world.

    No human-made problems are intractable when humans put their heads together with the earnest desire to overcome them. No peace is impossible when people are determined to achieve it.

    Peace requires the people of Israel and Palestine to recognize the human being in themselves and each other; to understand their interdependence.

    Missiles, bombs and crude invective are not part of the solution. There is no military solution.”

    Desmond Tutu

  29. DH says:

    “I have condemned those in Palestine responsible for firing missiles and rockets at Israel. They are fanning the flames of hatred. I am opposed to all manifestations of violence.

    But…”

    Proves my point.

    Where’s the right for Israel to defend itself?

  30. Kevin H says:

    Actually, DH, that quote very much disproves your point which was:

    “Criticizing Isreal doesn’t make you antsemitic but only criticizing Israel and leaving out the other players and complexities can or at the least show ignorance of the realities of the situation.”

    It is fine to find difficulty with things that another person says or does, but if we’re going to apply strongly-worded derogatory labels, then we darn well better be honest and accurate about the accusations we make of them.

    Even if it was followed by a “but”, Tutu made it clear that he wasn’t leaving out the other players or ignorant of what they were doing.

  31. Em says:

    DH…..
    Maybe, history IS playing out according to God’s design? ? !

  32. MYB says:

    The right-wingers are straight up toxic. I would advise all not to consume their poison.

  33. Duane Arnold says:

    “It requires a mind-set shift. A mind-set shift that recognizes that attempting to perpetuate the current status quo is to damn future generations to violence and insecurity. A mind-set shift that stops regarding legitimate criticism of a state’s policies as an attack on Judaism. A mind-set shift that begins at home and ripples out across communities and nations and regions – to the Diaspora scattered across the world we share. The only world we share.”

    Desmond Tutu

  34. Duane Arnold says:

    “Proves my point”

    I think not…

  35. DH says:

    Kevin, So he was right to support BDS? And I never labeled him. Also, he’s leaving out the religious aspects of the situation. You can’t view everything from an oppressor-oppressed view. I hope he was just ignorant and not something more sinister.

  36. DH says:

    Em, I guess at this point I have a more open theism view, God’s word will be fulfilled regardless of man’s free will.

  37. Michael says:

    DH,

    So you’re worried about the oppression of Palestinian Christians?

    That’s a good thing…

  38. Duane Arnold says:

    “The solution is more likely to come from that nonviolent toolbox we developed in South Africa in the 1980s, to persuade the government of the necessity of altering its policies.

    The reason these tools – boycott, sanctions and divestment – ultimately proved effective was because they had a critical mass of support, both inside and outside the country. The kind of support we have witnessed across the world in recent weeks, in respect of Palestine.

    My plea to the people of Israel is to see beyond the moment, to see beyond the anger at feeling perpetually under siege, to see a world in which Israel and Palestine can coexist – a world in which mutual dignity and respect reign.”

    Desmond Tutu

  39. bob1 says:

    Focusing on this aspect, while at the same time ignoring this man’s great accomplishments, is akin to standing in front of an elephant and focusing
    on a pimple on said’s arse.

    Haters gotta hate.

  40. DH says:

    Michael, I said criticism of Israel has its place.

  41. MYB says:

    “You can’t view everything from an oppressor-oppressed view”

    DH – I take it you are very concerned about Critical Race Theory?

  42. Duane Arnold says:

    “You can’t view everything from an oppressor-oppressed view”

    “…God is not asleep. The Jewish scriptures tell us that God is biased on the side of the weak, the dispossessed, the widow, the orphan, the alien who set slaves free on an exodus to a Promised Land. It was the prophet Amos who said we should let righteousness flow like a river.

    Goodness prevails in the end. The pursuit of freedom for the people of Palestine from humiliation and persecution by the policies of Israel is a righteous cause. It is a cause that the people of Israel should support.

    Nelson Mandela famously said that South Africans would not feel free until Palestinians were free.

    He might have added that the liberation of Palestine will liberate Israel, too.”

    Desmond Tutu

  43. DH says:

    “God is biased…”

    No, he is not. God is just and fair and wants us to be also. “Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.”

  44. josh hamrick says:

    DH – So you can take issue with Desmond Tutu’s words here and there. You can pick them apart, down to three words from a quote. OK.

    What drives you to do so and try to sully the name of a man the day after he dies?

  45. Duane Arnold says:

    DH

    You need to read the OT prophets… Just a suggestion…😁

  46. DH says:

    josh hamrick is it still too soon to talk about Rachel Held Evans Theology?

  47. DH says:

    Duane Arnold most of us should read our bibles more.

  48. bob1 says:

    Found this tribute to Bishop Tutu from Philip Yancey, titled “Death Comes for the Arch.”

    Good quotes:

    “For more than three years he presided over the Truth and Reconciliation Commission hearings of South Africa. The rules were simple: if a white policeman or army officer voluntarily faced his accusers, confessed his crime, and fully acknowledged his guilt, he could apply for amnesty, with some restitution to the victims.

    Hard-liners grumbled about the injustice of letting criminals go free, but Mandela and Tutu both insisted that the country needed healing even more than it needed justice.

    Day after day, Tutu heard details of deeds from hell committed in his own country. Afrikaner agents told of abusing pregnant women, torturing prisoners with waterboarding and electric shocks, beating suspects senseless, and sometimes shooting them in cold blood. Blacks confessed to “necklacing” corroborators by hanging gasoline-soaked tires around their necks and lighting them. The horror stories knew no end.”

    …Indeed, he emerged from the TRC hearings with renewed hope: “For us who are Christians, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is proof positive that love is stronger than hate, that life is stronger than death, that light is stronger than darkness, that laughter and joy, and compassion and gentleness and truth, all these are so much stronger than their ghastly counterparts.”

    https://philipyancey.com/death-comes-for-the-arch

  49. Duane Arnold says:

    Bob1

    Really good article! Many thanks…

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