TGIF
Quite the week…
There is nothing more fearsome than having to stand up to ones heroes.
I’ve been sick to my stomach over publicly disagreeing with those whose opinions and praise would matter most to me.
R. Scott Clark, Martin Downes, Carl Trueman, and Mike Horton are men whose works occupy prominent places in my library and in my mind.
They are my intellectual and spiritual superiors to a laughable degree.
Yet, there is a spirit of sectarianism and elitism running through all of our sects and their elite that is not of God and it grieves me to the point of courage.
When we gather together in our personal sects, whether we are Reformed, Lutheran, Calvary Chapel, or garden variety Baptist…we speak of our brethren with contempt.
I have heard it in Geneva, I’ve heard it in Costa Mesa, and we hear it all day online.
Division is not necessarily a bad thing…it proves that which is right and highlights the various gifts that God has given to different parts of the Body.
When we have contempt for one of those parts we are loathing ourselves because all of the Body and all of those gifts and emphases are part of who we are as a whole.
None of us have it all down…even if our confessions give us the false security that we do.
I know that the most doctrinaire members of each group think me a fool and maybe even an apostate for seeking fellowship with the whole Body.
However, until convinced by Scripture that one group has received the whole pure truth, I’ll consider myself a fool for Jesus and hang with whoever will have me.
While we found new ways to divide and criticize each other over things like J.I. Packers legacy and how far evangelicalism has strayed from orthodoxy, the real issue of the day was rearing it’s head in Michigan.
I’ve come to the conclusion that this is the defining issue for the church and culture today.
If we give in to the cultural mandate to incorporate that which the Bible calls an abomination into the life and standards of the church we lose not only our moral and spiritual standards, we lose our positions on the inerrancy and authority of Scripture.
When that happens, all is lost.
This does not mean that we do not continue to struggle with the issues, it does not mean that we give license to those who want to deal with the issues and the real people involved in less than a gracious and godly fashion.
It means we refuse to compromise on what the historic, orthodox church has already agreed to according to Scripture.
Period.
I listened to Dave Rolph’s teaching Wednesday night live on the internet.
I did so partly because I’ve been worried about his health and partly because nobody can soothe my soul like Rolph.
He does something amazing and I wish others in the pulpit would emulate him.
He assumes his congregation is intelligent.
I know that sounds odd, but many pastors avoid going too deeply into certain issues because they believe their people will get lost in the depths.
Rolph assumes his folks can handle hard concepts and his messages therefore speak in a more profound manner to what the text is teaching.
He won’t appreciate me mentioning this, but it really was striking to me and a lesson worth emulating.
That’s all…as you were.
First, and if anyone disagrees, I will prove it theologically! 🙂
Get a life Sweat! You can’t spend all day waiting for a new thread so that you can be “FIRST” 🙂
Michael said :
I know that the most doctrinaire members of each group think me a fool and maybe even an apostate for seeking fellowship with the whole Body.
How do we define who the “body” is and stay true in obedience to Paul and Jesus’ commands to expose false teachings and “doctrines of demons”…
Does the Bible clearly define this?
I think those who call our false doctrines are viewed as divisive when they are really just attempting to be in obedience..
He who desires to be first will be last!
I just wanted to add that the Word says that we are to test every spirit, because there are false Prophets.
Are they just the TB’s or can they be the religious leaders that practice idolatry?
Can we say that in a religious system where there are false doctrines that this is also a false relgion regardless of whether there are saved people who attend these churches?
Concerned,
You would have to clearly define the terms of what you consider false doctrine.
Is it differing from the historic creeds and confessions of the church or is it defined according to the beliefs of our sects?
Lighthouse Trails and those who are of a like mind would say that anyone not holding to pre millennial pretribulationism is deceived and a false teacher.
What are the essentials of the faith?
It is true… the defining issue of our watch is homosexual marriage. Much to my own grief I think the issue is all but decided. The enemies of truth have marked out and won the battle for the high ground. They own the media, they own the education centers, they own the halls of power. They will continue to seek legal protection until they find it. When they are done they will come after us relentlessly.
They will paint us as hate-mongers… enough of ‘our own’ will side with them to justify their actions. The twin beasts of government and false religion will push us to the margins. The Harlot of public opinion will turn against us too. We will lose by our own failures. The mass of shallow converts that we have gathered in this generation will be swayed easily. Worse still the shrill and angry among us would make us look so bad that their strictures against us will seem justified.
This battle must be fought…but we will lose… we already have… nevertheless we will fight but in the end many who are with us will defect. We lost this battle long ago, by being wrong on segregation, and by easy divorce, by all the hidden sexual failures in our own ranks and by a thousand other small steps. I never imagined that public opinion would accept homosexual sex as normative but we stand on the precipice.
Ten years from now it will all be done. Get ready to visit your pastors in jail. Hope I am wrong.
BD,
You are absolutely correct…and the sooner we understand that the better.
Ninth!!
Not talking about creeds.
Simply the issue that many do not understand the doctrinal errors of the RCC.
Many will say that because they believe that Jesus came in the flesh, the other issues are minor..like changing the word (omitting the 2nd commandment from the Catechism), justification, salvation…the essentials.
At my old CC, the Pastor called out the JW’s. Buddhists, Mormons, even Jews, but said that the Catholics share in the same salvation.
I am just struggling to be obedient to the Word of God…thats all.
I have to run…
“Ten years from now it will all be done. Get ready to visit your pastors in jail. Hope I am wrong”
Did we honestly expect that proclaiming Christ in the United States would always be a cushy ride? Eventually, taking a stand for the Lord Jesus here will bring the same results as it has already been bringing for centuries elsewhere.
Yes, we ought to be prepared, and yes we ought to be praying. But it’s time we realize that the Bible makes no exception for the USA when it comes to 2 Timothy 3:12.
Concerned,
I would call the RCC a false religious system.
However, I would affirm that there are and have been regenerate people in that system.
My concern and focus has been the division within Protestantism and I think I’ve made that clear.
Glad you can admit that.
In my old church I asked the Pastor why he did not call out the church when he mentioned all the other “relgions”, and he said that once when he said something negative, many Catholics walked out…so I guess he wasn’t willing to speak the truth again.
“I am just struggling to be obedient to the Word of God…thats all.”
Forgive me if I detect a notion in this statement that I’m not…
I struggle as well…some things are not crystal clear in the Scriptures and we can choose to err on the side of grace or attack that which we fear.
I see a lot of fearful attacking in the Body that doesn’t seem well informed by scripture…
OK Michael…. 🙂
At least we can all agree that salvation is not the issue within Protestantism, right?
“Glad you can admit that.”
I didn’t realize that there was much doubt where a Calvinist would stand on Catholicism…
“Forgive me if I detect a notion in this statement that I’m not…”
Not at all..thats the problem with blogging..
That never even entered my mind…
Right now I have 2 people that are currently in the RCC that the Lord brought into my life and I knwo they have faith in the Lord but no assurance of salvation so I am praying and taking it very slow with them. Some would say that because they know Jesus died and rose again they are saved….
“At least we can all agree that salvation is not the issue within Protestantism, right?”
I’m not sure what that means…as I said I read lots of Protestants anathematizing other Protestants for a variety of reasons.
I would say that if they have placed their trust in Christ and Him alone for their salvation they are saved.
“I didn’t realize that there was much doubt where a Calvinist would stand on Catholicism…”
Don’t the Presbyterians accept infant baptism as believers baptism?
Well, I do know that MLD will soon jump in…but I spoke recently to a very well known Pres. Pastor who when I asked what he would do with a Catholic who visited his church and was saved (as far as their infant baptism)…and he said that their infant baptism was “enough”, and that he would only baptize them if they asked.
Concerned,
“Many will say that because they believe that Jesus came in the flesh, the other issues are minor..like changing the word (omitting the 2nd commandment from the Catechism)”
Since Lutherans number the commandments the same way the Catholics do, I thought I would look at this. We include what is typically called the 2nd commandment into the first. If you look, you will see that the RCC do the same in their catechism. Go down to Roman numeral IV
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm
perhaps you wouldn’t have so much pain about the RCC if you understood their stuff.
Concerned,
This is exactly what I mean.
“Don’t the Presbyterians accept infant baptism as believers baptism?”
You obviously don’t understand the Reformed doctrine of baptism or how it differs from Lutheran, Catholic, and Baptistic formulations…. or how they each differ from each other.
I am not a Presbyterian, nor do I hold to infant baptism, but there are biblical arguments for it that are compelling.
Until you understand why a group does what they do it is not acceptable in my mind to define it either as orthodox or not.
“We think much more about fences than gates.”
Yep…and Packer and I are getting toasted for talking over the fence.
It talks a lot of gall to write a sentence that says “Packer and I”…. 😉
And I might add to Michael’s statement – it all goes to an overall theology. If you believe that God is the ‘actor’ (action taker) in baptism, and if you believe that Jesus commanded “the little ones to come to me” then you would see that perhaps baptism is a work of God and not a work of man.
We could turn it around and say that we who believe that God can do His work even in an infant, find it terribly offensive that some churches teach people “when YOU have decided that you have been thoroughly saved, come to US so WE can baptize you.
MLD,
You need to look at the Catholic catechism and the list titled “The ten commandments according tot he Bible”, and then “the ten commandments according tot he Catholic church.
When you do that you will see that they make the 10th 2 seperate commandments and omit the 2nd.
MLD,
From the Catholic Catechism.
Note that the 2nd commandment about worshipping idols is missing.
And notice that the 9th and 10th listed here is actually one commandment (#10) in the Bible
1. I am the LORD your God:
you shall not have
strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take
the name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD’S Day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal. Neither shall you steal.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness
against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet
your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet
your neighbor’s goods.
Just for edification…
The Reformed see baptism as the NT sign and seal of the new covenant, as circumcision was the sign and seal of the old.
Circumcision was performed on babies and adult male converts…thus the parallel.
Concerned,
You really frustrate me. Did you read the part where I said that we include the 2nd with the 1st? Did you read the section of the catechism that I linked to #IV where they discuss in detail the “graven image” part?
But let me ask you this – who came up with the numbering system? In the Bible they are not numbered. Have you ever looked at how the Jews number the commandments.#1.) I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me.
Does your church list the 1st commandment that way?
btw, the Lutheran church ‘splits’ the 10th commandment also. How you handle property and how you handle people
MLD said:
“perhaps you wouldn’t have so much pain about the RCC if you understood their stuff.”
That, was really not necessary.
I have studied their doctrines for a long time.
Right now I’m struggling with what this generation is motivated by to reach them in a more effective way to Christ. I currently have a couple of openly gay members of my family that say they are belivers. How do you dispute that? They even “act” in a more faith believing way than a lot of belivers I know. So, how do you discern or make a line in the sand about who is a true beliver and who isn’t. Of course, there are obvious errant doctrines that completely expose their wrongness. But, there are those fine-liners that you can’t just say, “Oh, they’re wrong and therefore I’ll have nothing to do with them.” Michael is right when he said that until he’s convinced by scripture that one group has discovered the one whole true doctrine, I’ll just hang with whoever will have me.
The words that keep ringing in my ears are that ALL have sinned… I can’t refuse my reletives that hang on to abominable practices. Jesus didn’t, and went into the bars and talked to harlots. It’s what GOD chooses to do with those folks that keeps my heart close to them, not my opinions about whether they are followiong his word correctly or not. I am far from doing that myself in some ways. Thank goodness I can’t see into the hearts of men because I am no darn good at saying what is right and what isn’t. I’m going to be very suprised at who I meet in the kingdom. And, I thank Jesus that I’m going at all.
“The Reformed see baptism as the NT sign and seal of the new covenant, as circumcision was the sign and seal of the old.”
But in my limited understanding…circumcision was never about a heart relationship with God, only an identification with the nation of Israel. Faith was never part of the equation, was it?
And if that was the case, why was John baptizing the Jews if they already were circumcized?
Concerned,
How do you know that the “10th commandment” is just one commandment? Each has “You shall not” in front of it.
Why can’t “you shall not covet your neighbor’s house” be one commandment and “you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife…” be another commandment?
This is a great clip (less than 4:00) about Johann Sebastian Bach.
Somehow, Bach’s personal Bible found its way to Philadelphia to a used bookstore, where it was purchased by a Missouri Synod farmer and his family. They had no idea what they had. They moved to Michigan and in the 1930s were visited by a pastor who discovered the books — 3 volumes. They traced Bach’s signature and confirmed that it was Bach’s. But the farmer refused to send them to the German Bach scholars — Hitler was coming to power and the farmer said, “No way.” It’s now at Concordia Seminary.
Before this discovery, it was never proven that Bach had a personal faith. The notes in his personal Bibles show otherwise.
http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/2009/pelikan/ss_bachsbible/ss-bachsbible.shtml#slideshow
Roman Catholicism. It would be my 2nd choice.
OK MLD..
If you looked at my list from the Catholic catechism, you would not see anything about worshipping idols.
Do you notice this?
This is how it is listed in the Catechism alongside right next to it the 10 from the Bible.
I am not concerned about what you sent me. 🙂
Jerry,
Those are difficult questions and if we try to simplify them with dogmatics we risk being on the wrong side of the angels.
Good post…
“How do you know that the “10th commandment” is just one commandment? Each has “You shall not” in front of it.
Why can’t “you shall not covet your neighbor’s house” be one commandment and “you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife…” be another commandment?”
Because the 2nd commandment is OMITTED because the RCC practices idolatry.
It is not about dividing commandments but omitting from the word of God.
Also, they HAVE to divide the 10th because they OMIT the 2nd!!
…and there is no third choice.
Concerned,
I really have neither the time or inclination to defend the Reformed view of baptism.
My point is that they have biblical reasons for believing and practicing as they do and I will not divide with them over it.
Concerned,
Why do you find it so hard to believe that the 1st commandment, “you shall have no other god’s before me”, does not include Exodus 20:4-6. Aren’t those graven images part of the “other gods being spoken of?”
You still have not answered where in the Bible you find the numbering system.
We’ve only got one connection as the Bride of Christ. Our celebrity – Jesus the Christ. Not a day should go by (they do, though) that we aren’t amazed by Immanuel. We can mess up and go off on doctrinal tangents that enhance or hinder our spiritual walk with Him and we may leave this earth pretty beat up in all kinds of ways. But our wedding garment is issued on the other side. IMNSHO
praying for the point men here – the ones us pew sitters hide behind 😆
Lutheran, great link.
Psalm62,
Amen…
MLD,
I have work to do that is far more important than arguing…
Anwyay, I am attempting to recharge my immune system not distress it….:)
MLD
Exodus 20:4-5
Find that in the list I posted
My Othodox Study Bible uses the Septuagint for the Old Testament. It includes the “No graven Images” commandment.
Concerned,
Just a final thought. I think that the RCC catechism takes a very strong position AGAINST worshiping idols (graven images) – however, I think that Catholics for the most part just ignore it.
But hey, is that any different than people who break the commandment (you pick the number) about lying and talking behind people’s back? So what’s the big deal – the catholics can point to commandments that protestants break and ignore.
Xenia,
The catholic bible includes the “no graven images” passage also. Concerned is saying when you make an abbreviated list it doesn’t show up.
One commandment almost universally ignored is “Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy.”
There are good reasons why Christians no longer keep the Sabbath; I am not arguing for Sabbath-keeping. But it goes to show that the Incarnation had an effect on which Commandments we observe nowadays.
I must admit, I’m a little surprised that Calvin College is having a row over homosexuality and same-sex marriage. All three of my brothers went to Calvin College, and I never got the impression that it was a particularly religious place. Certainly none of the students behaved as you would expect christians to. I thought it was one of those colleges that had a religious name but had long ago left actual religion behind it. Methinks they have a lot more issues to focus on than what the faculty is teaching about homosexuality.
“Just a final thought. I think that the RCC catechism takes a very strong position AGAINST worshiping idols (graven images) – however, I think that Catholics for the most part just ignore it.”
What?? they venerate and worship idols-thats why they have omitted the 2nd commandment.
The wafer in communion is venerated and worshipped.
The point is not whether anyone obeys the commandments, but when the word of God is changed. How about the warnings of doing this?
It is not about whether or not they are obeyed.
Xenia,
The Jerusalem Bible HAS the 10 commandments, it is the Catechism that changes them.
They also say that Nooah’s story was a fable as well as Jonah.
It is like the Jews not reading their Bible and relying on the Talmud (the Commentary).
MLD, right. Concerned is wanting to make a point that us paganidolaters have taken the Commandment against graven images clean outta the Bible and I was demonstrating that the eastern branch of pagan idolaters has also kept it in the Bible.
Concerned,
“Find that in the list I posted”
Your list is not the Bible. Look in any Catholic Bible and you will find those passages. Even though you don’t care what I sent you, if you look in their catechism where I told you to look, there is an extensive teaching on the “no graven images”.
I just think that you are blinded to all issues RCC.
Xenia, 🙂
Jessica,
I got the same impression as you from the students Facebook page…
Dread,
All your 9:41 needs is a pre-trib rapture acknowledgement. 😉
***Ten years from now it will all be done. Get ready to visit your pastors in jail. Hope I am wrong.***
I think you are wrong. I’ve heard the same sort of doom and gloom you wrote from Christians since I was in kindergarten in the 80s. It’s been over 20 years and none of it has happened. I doubt the doom and gloom being spoken of in the 00s will be any more likely to happen.
I think the most that will happen is that the christian children of today will be discouraged and eventually broken by all of the fear and pessimism within the christian ranks the way I and other like me were discouraged and broken by that same fear 20+ years ago.
Well, I suspect that the vast majority of Protestants also believe that Genesis, Noah and Jonah are fables.
But, I’m not here to defend the RCC. I don’t really know much about them other than they are only one schism away from Eastern Orthodoxy. The EO has plenty of problems of our own with the RCC albeit of a different nature than the problems that vex some of you folks.
Xenia,
“MLD, right. Concerned is wanting to make a point that us paganidolaters have taken the Commandment against graven images clean outta the Bible”
I really wish Xenia you would find that in anything I wrote.
The problem is when you are not reading the Bible and relying on the “Church”s interpretation of scriptures. As I pointed out it is the same in Judaism.
It is in the Bible…like many things.
The intercessor comes to mind.
There is one intercessor between man and God and that is Jesus Christ.
It is right there, yet the RCC calls on Mary, the “Mediatrix” to be the intercessor. She is sinless and is omnipotent and omnipresent just like God.
I don’t know how this started but there is no point…so time to bow out..
OK, I can’t take it anymore. Concerned can keep saying that the RCC has taken the “graven image” stuff out of the catechism all she wants, but she is not telling the truth. Here it is – this is the 4th sections of explanations of the 1st commandment;
“IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .”
2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: “Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . “66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time “he is greater than all his works.”67 He is “the author of beauty.”68
2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69
2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons – of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71
Lutheran –
I have to go read that link…it sounds fascinating.
For me, I never realized that JS Bach’s faith was ever in question. If I recall correctly from my music history courses, he dedicated every single written piece to the glory of God.
Fascinating music. I could never play his stuff correctly, but it’s beautiful. Almost more interesting to read than to listen to.
“Fascinating” twice…I guess I had the word in my noggin. 🙂
Concerned,
>>>Concerned is wanting to make a point that us pagan idolaters have taken the Commandment against graven images clean outta the Bible <<>>I really wish Xenia you would find that in anything I wrote<<>>What?? they venerate and worship idols-thats why they have omitted the 2nd commandment.<<<
Oh well, to change the subject to something more pleasant – “how about those battlin’ Calvinists? 😉
Luthersan, That video link was beautiful, what an amazing story. Btw..you shared some links to a few books/resources a month or two ago. Could you post them again for me? They were published by Concordia possibly. Thanks.
I must admit, based on this original post, I would never have expected this thread to turn into a Catholics-Aren’t-Christian debate.
OK MLD…
Now that I have read what you send me I am not in agreement with it at all.
There is too much to even comment on, especially this:
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
I don’t think God describes what “Christian veneration of images” is because it is prohibited. so now it is called “respectful veneration”…like to Mary??
Whatever this is, I think it conflicts with God’s word and does not negate the fact that the 2nd commandment is out of the list (where God plainly states that no graven image is to be made OR worshipped. There is no such thing as “respectful” veneration.
Michael, you wrote: nor do I hold to infant baptism, but there are biblical arguments for it that are compelling…
Honest question–please everyone don’t crucify me for asking this–can you name even one compelling Biblical argument? I ask honestly.
I don’t want to back anyone into a corner. Concerned is legitimately concerned about RC excesses in the area of Mary-veneration and I will agree with her that a lot of it is over the top. At least, I think this is her issue- I don’t want to put words in her mouth.
JimB spoken like a true American… rapture is not the remedy.
Jessica … I am far from gloomy about my view of God’s church and of his kingdom. But yes I am rather gloomy about our culture. Frankly the last forty years have justified that gloom. So for me it is optimism about the kingdom but pessimism about our welcome in the public square. If I understand you your gloom is pretty much reserved for the church.
Just as we Christians no longer need to observe the Sabbath because Jesus is our Sabbath rest, because of the Incarnation we can now depict Christ using paint and wood (matter) because He came and took on human flesh (matter.) And you all believe this to be true or else you would burn all your illustrated Sunday School materials.
In the same episode where God gave Moses this commandment against graven images He also gave Moses directions for making the golden cherubim.
Yet it can go awry for sure, as in the case of the brass serpent and many Marian devotions.
fyi
The compelling argument from scripture is simple… baptism being seen as corresponding to circumcision as a sign of the covenant… the old sign passed away and the new embraced. That along with the references to household baptism in Acts…
But alas I am not a paedo-baptist myself… I immerse believers.
fyi,
I love it when people ask and I hope they follow up on the answers.
The subject is too large for this venue, but here is a good representation of a Reformed defense of paedo-baptism.
http://www.wordmp3.com/files/gs/baptism.htm
Just read Sam Fong’s update (missed it yesterday). WOW what a great feeling Sam portrays. Go read it for an uplift. Praise HIM!
>>The intercessor comes to mind.
There is one intercessor between man and God and that is Jesus Christ<<<
A few thoughts about this. Do we not have an intercessory prayer thread here on the PP? Do we not ask each other to intercede for us in prayer?
As to the RCC idea (not yet an official dogma, I don't think) about the Theotokos being the Mediatrix- I agree with you that this idea is idolatrous.
One of the first claims usually made by opponents of a doctrine or practice is that it is “unbiblical”.
The reality is that biblical cases can be made for every eschatological position except full preterism, the various modes of baptism, the Lords table differences and so forth.
We rather subjectively judge which case is strongest and adopt that position.
Xenia,
“In the same episode where God gave Moses this commandment against graven images He also gave Moses directions for making the golden cherubim.” This is exactly what the Catholic catechism says.
2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69
Xenia,
Have you done a study in exactly what is happening at Mass?
Mary is a huge issue but not the only issue.
fyi,
I like this article on infant baptism – it’s on a lay level.
http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar55.htm
Nene,
I did list some books about Lutheranism awhile back — if these aren’t the ones, just let me know.
Why I am a Lutheran: Jesus at the Center by Daniel Preus
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Am-Lutheran-Jesus-Center/dp/0758605145/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256324184&sr=1-1
The Defense Never Rests: A Lawyer’s Quest for the Gospel, by Craig Parton
http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Never-Rests-Lawyers-Gospel/dp/0758604823/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256324271&sr=1-3
The Fire and the Staff: Lutheran Theology in Practice by Klemet Preus
http://www.amazon.com/Fire-Staff-Lutheran-Theology-Practice/dp/0758604041/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256324227&sr=1-1
Tim,
Yeah, I was surprised, too — can’t imagine how Bach could create all this beautiful, heavenly music otherwise! I guess the point is that this is more tangible proof for those
“Show Me’s” from Missouri.
jlo,
Glad you liked the presentation. Bach’s Mass in B Minor is unbelievably beautiful and majestic. Not to mention Bach’s other wonderful music!
Babs,
“But alas I am not a paedo-baptist myself… I immerse believers.”
This is a great statement – can you tell me how the person you call a “believer” became a believer any differently than I would say that an infant / child becomes a believer? I say that the infant becomes a believer through the word of God and the work of the Holy spirit with no effort on his own.
How does your “believer” do it? I need to know the extra step.
Concerned, I have not made a study of the RCC mass. But that is not what we were talking about. We were talking about the Commandment against graven images. I am not here to defend Roman Catholicism as I know very little about it, other than what is known by most people.
Just for clarity…MLD’s link is to the Lutheran position, mine the Reformed.
They are quite different.
Nene,
One more great book —
The Spirituality of the Cross: The Way of the First Evangelicals, by Gene Edward Veith
http://www.amazon.com/Spirituality-Cross-Way-First-Evangelicals/dp/0570053218/ref=pd_sim_b_3
Xenia,
Before I leave for the day…
The Mass is the basis of the RC faith.
The mass is the equivalent of the OT sacrificial system of having a High Priest (who in RCC is not appoined by God but men)offer sacrifice on the altar, and then the Priest becoems the mediator for us.
Hebrews explains the fact that we are all priests and can come to God directly through the sacrifice of Jesus who HImself laid down his life..without a High Priest.
The RCC uses pagan idolatry in the mass and negates the once for all “Finished” work of Christ on the cross..thats why with the Catholic, they need to go to Mass every week to receive the sacrifice again and again.
>>>Before I leave for the day…<<<
God bless you and have a great day!
MLD
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God… there is no ‘do it’ to it… I shall parse it no further.
Xenia..
I am glad we are still friends… 🙂
Concerned, of course we are still friends! (Thank you.)
Babs,
I agree 🙂 It’s the word that acts on the person and makes him a believer, regardless of age.
MLD, do Lutherans believe that a baptized person can fall away from the faith and thus lose his salvation? That is, you don’t believe baptism is a guarantee of salvation? (I think I know the answer but want to be sure.)
Ah MLD,
Well we depart from one another in a simple place… I think one should be able to confess their faith before being baptized … I am incapable of knowing what a sleeping baby believes. But in fact I do not mind Luther’s little departure from sola scriptura on the matter lol… blessings to all
I am off the airport… Worship and Word at 7pm… cya there..
Hi,
This is a very cool site I just found, full of things to be thankful about…http://1000awesomethings.com/
Enjoy!
Xenia,
“do Lutherans believe that a baptized person can fall away from the faith and thus lose his salvation?”
A qualified yes. We believe that a person can neglect their faith and fall away – so they are really giving up salvation, but they probably don’t realize it.
I guess the biggest thing is that they cannot have their salvation taken away from them.
MLD:”Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71″
Xenia:”Yet it can go awry for sure, as in the case of the brass serpent and many Marian devotions”
there’s the crux of the problem, isn’t it?
BTW “graven” means something like “carved” doesn’t it? it doesn’t mean “grave” as in “serious”… 🙂
psalm62,
but it can go arwy in the other direction also – like when Skip Heitzig removed every single Christian symbol in the church (which included something like 27 crosses). I never figured out if he did it to remove images (nah, because he replaced them with his self designed logos) or because he didn’t want anyone to know that they were in a Christian Church.
***Jessica … I am far from gloomy about my view of God’s church and of his kingdom. But yes I am rather gloomy about our culture. Frankly the last forty years have justified that gloom. So for me it is optimism about the kingdom but pessimism about our welcome in the public square. If I understand you your gloom is pretty much reserved for the church.***
I do have a rather low opinion of quite a few aspects of secular culture. Probably the big reason why I still even consider myself marginally a christian is because I don’t see any better options out there.
I am gloomier about the church than I am about “the World”, because the World is supposed to suck. The church shouldn’t.
I am not gloomy about how secular America responds to christianity because I’ve heard fear-mongering from Christians my whole life and that fear-mongering has never proved true. I simply do not see anything about current American culture that would make me believe that 10 years from now pastors will be thrown in prison for preaching that homosexual behaviour or homosexual marriage is sinful.
MLD,
Heitzig sounds like a modern-day Anabaptist. That’s exactly what they did in Luther’s time — came in to churches and stripped them of crucifixes, corpuses, etc., etc. Interesting. Maybe some things never change.
MLD:
“psalm62,
but it can go arwy in the other direction also – like when Skip Heitzig removed every single Christian symbol in the church (which included something like 27 crosses). I never figured out if he did it to remove images (nah, because he replaced them with his self designed logos) or because he didn’t want anyone to know that they were in a Christian Church.”
yep that too …
on second thought the question comes to mind… did those symbols of the faith make him feel threatened?
Jessica, “I simply do not see anything about current American culture that would make me believe that 10 years from now pastors will be thrown in prison for preaching that homosexual behaviour or homosexual marriage is sinful.”
When “we” began to see the trend toward overt disrespect of Christianity overtake the secular world, we thought that we’d be cornered a whole lot quicker than we have been… it’s been a hundred years in process now… and who knows how much longer the grace of God will give us Christians wiggle room? And I think that we’re more apt to be sued or fined than arrested, myself… or just marginalized, maybe…
swing, swing, swing…
it may go on back and forth for centuries more and maybe not… 🙄
***And I think that we’re more apt to be sued or fined than arrested, myself… or just marginalized, maybe…***
Exactly. Sued or fined would be much more likely than arrest. I think America would have to go through some major, *major* cultural changes before people started being arrested for disemminating unpopular views. For example, the Matthew Shepard Hate Crimes Prevention Act that the Senate just passed has clauses that explicitly state that the nothing in the bill shall be construed to limit a person’s free speech or their First Ammendment rights.
Freedom of speech and the separation of church and state are ideals that are inexorably ingrained in the American psyche. We still allow white supremicists and neo-nazis to vocalise their beliefs and, in fact, provide them police protection when they stage public rallies. As long as we do that, there’s no way christians will be locked up for voicing their beliefs.
The reason the homosexual agenda has advanced so far is that Christians have a post-modern mindset as evidenced by the many people who have posted here. The fact that some of us have homosexual acquaintances we feel that as Christian we are slow to talk to them about their practices for feeling guilty and judgmental. They don’t give a whit what you or I think. It’s like what a child wants and they get what they want by making the issue about them. They claim the powerful role of the victim while Christians, and particularly the Bible-believing variety, are the unjust persecutors. The drama triangle becomes complete with the political party of their liking comes to their rescue with politicians that encourage and espouse their agendas with “hate crime” legislation. Gay rights are the defining measure by which the Church will be punctured. If we see pastors in jail for hate crimes as already is the case in Canada, it will soon to be visited on American pastors sooner than later.
If most Roman Catholics knew exactly what it is their church teaches they would not claim to be Christians saved by grace.
Hey Puz
Looking for you tonight… will I see you?
Yo Dread!
Yes! I will be there. I didn’t know Malcolm was in town. Thanks for letting me know. I’ll try and let the others know.
Completely off topic
If there are any U2 fans out there, UTube will be streaming live Sundays concert at the Rose Bowl.
Starts at 8:30pm
http://www.youtube.com/user/U2official
U2 is never off subject thanks…
jlo, I will let my youngest know… she was a U2 fan before they became big… 1982(?). I thot she want me to haul her and her girl friends down to Tacoma WA to see a submarine – clueless mom 😆
Hey everyone. A couple of things:
1. Today, according to Ussher (the dead guy, not the hip-hop star), is Earth’s birthday. http://www.katagraphais.com/index.php/2009/10/23/happy-birthday-earth/
2. Scot McKnight on taking God’s name in vain (or, don’t ever use a certain combination of the letters G, M and O) http://blog.beliefnet.com/jesuscreed/2009/10/omg-and-taking-the-name-of-the.html
Dread,
>>JimB spoken like a true American… rapture is not the remedy.
Rapture not being the remedy is a strange perspective. Christ returning for the church would sure put my life in a better place…
My rapture comment was made because your answer didn’t sound like that of an Amillennialist who believes that the Devil is bound during this age… Do you see the contradiction in your eschatology?
Lutheran, I have been gone all day, and just saw your response. Yes, those were the books you had mentioned. Thank you!
Hi JimB!!! Is it getting cold there these days? I miss my small town! 🙂
I was just thinking about you. Thanks for the note. Its still fairly warm now. We are getting lots of moisture but at least we haven’t had to shovel any of it yet. I can live with that and kind of like cool weather, not cold, cool. How have you been Nene?
How is your dad Nene?
JimB
Your contradiction in my theology is based upon your understanding not my teaching. In amil theology we believe the binding(limitation) on Satan is not that he can do nothing… it is simply that he cannot prevent the spread of the Gospel…’that he should deceive the nations no more’
Thus I am OPTIMISTIC about the increase and spread of the church and pessimistic about the culture …
Very Consistently Yours
Evangelist Dread
Dread,
>>Thus I am OPTIMISTIC about the increase and spread of the church and pessimistic about the culture …
I thought you didn’t have any contradictions?
Psalms LOL. I gave up my ticket to the concert so that my eldest stepdaughter would go. She is still mad at me because I think she should be responsible for her own stuff at 18 years of age, go figure. But I did give my ticket to my niece who is over the moon at getting to go to a U2 concert. It’s all good. I get to watch on UTube, and my niece gets to see her favorite group and my husband gets to spend time with his girls. Guess I’m not so mean after all.
Many blessings to you and your family JimB. Talk later!
Woooo Hooooo
Friday night church night
X 2
I’ve lost my mind! 😯
Jessica said:
“I am gloomier about the church than I am about “the World”, because the World is supposed to suck. The church shouldn’t.”
The church has always “sucked” and that is why Jesus came to redeem men. Look through the history and narratives in scripture, conflict amongst God’s people is constantly there. When a look at how secular historians paint the history it is even worse.
Even the subject of this thread reflects the “sucking” of the church, but discussing these things and looking towards Christ is all I can do.
Michael said :
“I know that the most doctrinaire members of each group think me a fool and maybe even an apostate for seeking fellowship with the whole Body.”
I know what you mean. My friends include cessationists and Pentecostals; Quasi-Arminians (all I know hold to an atonement theology, thus they aren’t real Arminians) and Calvinists (of which I am one, at least on salvation); pre-Tribs, preterists, partial preterists, historicists, etc. It isn’t as though we are fellowshipping with JW’s and Moromons, but sometimes we get treated that way.
Augustine,
You wouldn’t believe some of the responses I get…from every different sect. 🙂
The TR’s really dump you when they find out you prefer Southern Gospel to psalm singing… 🙂